This is soooo encouraging. And finally a video that lets me feel ok that my “wearables” keep insisting I’m way above zone 2 while my own talk-test estimate says no. My heart rate has always skewed higher than average for my age, even when young, so I tend not to be concerned, but still… was nice to see that your own heart rate zone 2 threshold was much higher than the old percent-of-max HR formulas.
I have found that to be true too. We can't pay too much attention to Garmin etc that uses algorithms derived for the "average" measurement that takes no account of health, physical condition, temperature, terrain and so on. Nobody is an average.
There are two ways of looking at exercise as we get older. One is from a performance standpoint (for those masters athletes out there). The other is from a health and longevity perspective (for the rest of us). This video started off from a performance standpoint, but at the end you pulled it back to a level that was applicable to most of us. Listen to your body seems to be sound advice that most of us can get behind. There is a difference between maximising performance and going too deep into all these training variables like heart rate zones…and optimising outcomes while exercising around real world situations.
Hi Stuart - I'm sorry that's what you took from it, because I was very much going for health throughout. If I was going for performance, I wouldn't have started with Zone 1. Nor would I have spoken about efficient training, enjoying our chosen sport for as long as possible, or helping us live a longer, happier healthier life. I'm not sure how you took a performance slant from those words and my beginning the body of the video in Zone 1 but I'm sorry if you feel it was the wrong approach.
@@alwaysanotheradventure no, my apologies, I probably misread your intent. I do that at times. I would say that for the majority of the population talk about heart rate zones is too complex and fussy for them to bother with. So the talk test that you describe is a good compromise.
Thanks, great to see that the "talk test" can give relatively accurate results. Lately I have been trying to train mainly in my current settings for zone 2 but so much of the time I end up in zone 3 without even noticing any strain or lactate build up. Beginning to think that my zone 1 and zone 2 need to be stretched out and zones 3 and up should be compressed.
Awesome video! Really looking forward to the follow up video. I’m 56 and have finally stopped training like a lunatic. I now incorporate Z2 rides and 1-2 weekly VO2 sessions. My goal is to be as fit as you when I’m your age.
One way to obtain maximum efficiency is to do it six days a week. Maybe not as much volume. And then just add the higher intensity interval training at the very end. But really working at steady state zone two. In a way it’s like music or anything else. If you do less of it, but more days a week you get a large uptick in affect and efficiency and results. I am 57 and my father has been a world-class Alpine Mountain climber from age 30 up to 80. He improved every single year. He didn’t have all the information but he did apply it. He had the metabolic health of a top athlete in their early 30s . Had he never drank alcohol, he would still be soloing mountains with 70 pounds on his back beating the tar out of 20-year-olds.
Thanks much for a very practical and helpful video. I’m closing in on 67 and take a coupleheart meds that (among other unhappy effects) limit my heart rate. If I were at your zone 2 rate of 142, I’d be about ready to pass out. It’s helpful to have a better idea what works for me, and to know I can currently get a decent amount of exercise at my zone 2 if I pedal to the point of broken sentences for 3 hours a week. That’s do-able!
Good video. I like the idea of listening to your body when training. I also use my Garmin watch a lot because often I'm rubbish at listening to my body, and the watch is the closest thing to a nagging coach that I have. But I'm always trying to listen to both where I can
Thanks for this...I'm 64 with a tested max HR this year of about 180, Garmin says my Z2 should top out in the low 130's which is very low for me, not even remotely breathless. I'll do a "breathless test" this week and tweak my devices' target zones 1-2-3, probably will leave 4-5 more or less as they are. Not to obsess about zones but it's useful to have a personal compass of sorts as a guide ;) Cheers
Thanks for this video. Having watched countless videos about zone 2, this is the first time I've seen the difference between calculated zone 2 (as a percentage of max hr) and actual being discussed much. I've never done testing but have always felt that my zone 2 is much higher than my 75% of max heart rate formula. I've filmed videos narrating riding on mountain bike trails and I was confused by the fact that my heart rate was way beyond my calculated zone 2 yet my conversation with the camera continued in a similar manner to when yours when you mention you're reaching the top of your zone 2. I had heard Peter Atila talking about the conversation test but dismissed it because that hr value when my conversation wasn't possible was about 25 to 30 bpm higher than calculated upper zone 2 (I'm in my mid '50s with an actual max HR in the mid 180s). Anyways, appreciate hearing your thoughts on this!
My HRmax is 173 tested at that session in Edinburgh. I would have thought my top of Z2 was about 130bpm but seems not. If the Hr formulas are trying to estimate LT1, and LT1 fluctuates daily given the factors mentioned, I suppose it’s no wonder they’re out. It took me a long while to get my head around this - about 4!attempts to make this video!
An excellent video highlighting just how complicated this gets because the experts can't agree on a common standard or vocabulary. Never mind that the very scientific sounding formulae are often wildly out. I particularly like how you highlight walking as useful exercise. Too many runners and cyclists ignore it. I would prefer more recreational athletes go for a 'recovery walk' instead of a slow ride or run. I try to cycling 300-400 miles a month and walk at least 30.
Once again a excellent video. Great information. A suggestion for a future video. How about going deeper into a activity like walking, like what are some of the best shoes to wear, howcto get most out of your walk, etcetera. You could do this with different physical activities. Looking forward to the next video.
Hi Simon, I got cut off on an earlier comment, computer issues. anyway I was saying I have been active all my life but have had problems with weight until I adopted a "No processed foods/no sugar and I do a intermittent fasting (time restricted feeding) and since then I have been maintaining my weight easier. I really like your videos and I feel you cover the subject of "older Athletes" quite well. And yes I think there is more than 10 years left in our ability to do the sports we love. I am planning on do a 12 hour cycle event/race in November and if you think of any advice you can send me I would appreciate it. Keep up the great videos
Sounds exciting - and long! I've done two one-day events of roughly that duration; a big European cycle sportive and an Ironman. In both cases, the deciding factor was nutrition. I enjoyed the Ironman, but the sportive was the worst day I have spent on a bike. What made the difference was the food. I kinda thought it didn't matter too much when I did the sportive. I'd done big days on the bike (Raid Pyrenean sub 100hrs) and stopped at lunchtime for real food. The sportive made utterly different demands, and no time to stop. What worked for me wouldn't necessarily work for you, but my only advice would be to pay significant attention to this during training. I try to start with 'real' food (soft white rolls and cream cheese for example), before venturing into sports products and finally gels, but that profile is for triathlon. Sean (who is a highly experienced long-form triathlete) talks about it in one of our Century ride videos - ua-cam.com/video/Gh99ieV6KXE/v-deo.html.
220-age is way off, even as a population average. Various formulae that use .68 or .70 time age are closer, but still population based. There's a huge individual variance. Also, 75% of max (or whatever) is also a wild-assed guess, probably too low. For me 80% of heart rate reserve (gap between resting and max) is much closer. That's maybe 85% of max. This is consistent with what Stephen Seiler says. Look him up if you're unfamiliar with him.
Wonderful video, as always, Simon. On a different topic, have you ever posted your homemade energy bar recipe? I do apologize. Haven’t been able to find it.
Saw video from a masters rowing conference. They were suggesting that Relative Perceived Exertion around 12 is quite a good alternative measure. lots of stuff about RPE on the interwebs.
Yes - RPE is a great way to listen to your body. But sometimes hard to place yourself on the scale (how does 6 out of 10 feel different from 7 on any given day?). That’s why I like the idea of the two metabolic thresholds, which are real measurable changes. They work like a couple of anchors around which RPE - in my view - works best.
I always struggled with RPE…and I suspect many would, based on their personality / motivation. The more motivated of us ( that used to be me) would estimate their RPE on the low side ( I never thought that I was working hard enough), whereas the less motivated would think that they were working too hard. This was seen in a weight training study where even experienced trainees struggled to estimate how many reps they were away from training to momentary muscular failure. Most estimated on the low side by a good few reps.
From Oz … everybody is different that’s for sure. But we are all the same in that we function physiologically in the metabolic pathways, albeit that few of us are at the same point on the path as Tedej Pogacar - undaunted, at about three times his age, I’m working on my mitochondria.
Ye I read his stuff - it’s brilliant and used by Dr Peter Attia too. But San Millan puts two zones between Lt1 and LT2. It’s excellent for faster younger riders looking to push their Z3 at tempo. Not sure it’s so useful for older folk - that’s the next video.
@@alwaysanotheradventure Inigo talks about training in all zones, but how the most powerful zone is the one 2, because how it uniquely builds and optimizes the health of every aspect of mitochondria and metabolism. It’s the gold and diamonds secret weapon! Not speckled down to academia or the medical community yet. It will probably take five or more years. A lot of people know zone two is popular but DO NOT understand WHY? “Maximum mitochondrial expression.“ I tested this recently and was totally blown away at what I was able to do, and I’m 57. It is also, with no competition, by far the most powerful prescription for overarching cellular and full metabolic health, which is really the base foundation to everything!Once people understand this, they will also understand that nutrition and supplements, and all of the other stuff is peripheral in comparison. It can complement the base, but we need to major on the majors and minor on the minors. If people simply did one hour of steady state zone 2 training a day, six days a week, the entire United States would see an astonishing and utter turnaround of health of all forms! unfortunately people don’t understand this most essential foundation. So they get caught up in the weeds.
@@alwaysanotheradventure also, I believe it is great for all ages. Basically get an hour of steady state zone 2 in, then finish off with some varying intervals of zone three through six. Yesterday with a rucking vest, I walked up a steady hill that took me an hour to get to the top, at 5000 feet, I was in perfect zone 2 the whole time! Maximum mitochondrial expression. But then I pushed myself as hard as I could the last four minutes. That was just one interval. If I continued the same routine five or six days a week, I would slowly build a little bit more VO2 Max at the end. And have fun with it. Maybe be all out one minute intervals. All out two minute intervals…. Up to about 8. maybe sometimes just sprinting for 20 or 30 seconds. But keeping the high intensity stuff down to five, to at very most 15 or 20% of the total. And of course, easing into this extremely slowly, to avoid injury and burn out. Unless a person is training for a specific event, I think that the interval hiit can easily be just 1-10%. It goes along way!!! My dad did this his whole life and was doing it in his 80s (still getting stronger every year as a world-class Alpine Mountain climber ) and had the metabolism of a top athlete in their 30s.
Just subed to you videos.Great info.I am a 80yo lady in the US and back in the day have done a small bit of running and biking.So why am I watching your videos and not sitting in my recliner knitting botties?I try to stay in some form of shape and in January of this year got my second hip replaced and has really knocked my fitness down a lot.I am back to being able to walk a bit a watch my heart rate with a chest strap.Have been doing treadmill at a walk zero incline at 2.5 gets me to about HR of 103 and doing th.e talk test is my zone 2. Not sure what vo2 is but not sure at my age what my max is so guess this is a start any ideas for me to improve??
Hi Anita - thanks for the comment and I don't know enough to be able to offer you reliable advice about training. I'm pretty good at pulling together sources of info and making them understandable, but I don't want to pontificate when I don't know. When I find myself in that position, I try to find an expert. That's what I've done for our strength training; I found a woman who specialises in coaching older folk (she has clients in their 80s) and her approach to my wife and I is quite different to the 20 year old body builders. I realise you didn't ask about strength training, but I'm using this as an example. That said, strength is absolutely crucial to all of this. Is there any chance you could find a personal trainer near you with the knowledge, understanding, and genuine interest with whom you could work for a few sessions to set you on the right track? I often find myself recommending the book 'Outlive' by Dr Peter Attia. You might find that encouraging and a good way to progress. At least you'll know the questions to ask any potential trainer! The best of luck.
I haven’t had a fit on that one and I agree. I had the original Camino and it turns out this new one has a different geometry! Not sure how long I’ll keen this one.
Your video reinforces my impression that most "run slow to get fast" advocates set the pace way too low. My max HR is about the same as yours, and I can run comfortablly at 130-150 pbm. Over an hour, I have a fair amount of drift (more than when younger). So I push harder to hit 130 at the start than 145 at the end. Never do I get as out of breath as you appear in the video. Stephen Seiler suggests that "slow" (which he calls zone 1 and you call zone 2) is 80% of max power, which is about 80% of max heart rate reserve (based on a true max HR, not 220-age or whatever). For me, that's 148. MAF would have me training at 115. I do that (or less) every morning on my indoor bike. But for training benefit in running, I do 130-150. For occasional intervals, I do 160+.
Did i hear you say that you were being investigated for a possible heart flutter? I was diagnosed with a heart flutter last year. The consultant said that i could continue to run. However, is it possible to follow HR based training, & calculate HRZ's when one has a heart flutter? Thank you
I had a weird HR spike that was investigated thoroughly and nothing found. Even so I wouldn’t dare advise on something medical like that, sorry! However it’s a great question if you could ask a cardiologist who is familiar with your case. I know that’s very not helpful, so my apologies.
These equations have a standard error of estimate of around +/- 10-12 beats per minute. Taking the classic 220-age equation (not the best!) for example, that means, for people who are 60 years old, the average max heart rate will be 160 bpm. Around 68% of them will have MXHR between 150 bpm and 170 bpm, and 95% will be between 140 bpm and 180 bpm. And 5% of 60-year-olds will have a max heart rate above/below even these boundaries! (These are conservative estimates; a +/- 12 bpm SEE would lead to even greater disparity). Separately, the classic 220-age equation has been shown quite conclusively to also have a fixed bias, such that it underestimates MXHR in older adults and overestimates MXHR in younger adults.
Good video as ever however at 5 mins 30 that looks much more like a zone 3 effort than zone 2. Always best to be conservative I think, you're still getting massive aerobic benefits at lower heart rates without the risk of overtraining, injury, illness etc
I agree, it does look like that if you go by conventional assessment. And yet it can’t be - it’s borderline at best. Because I’m 5bpm below my measured lactate threshold, and that defines the top of Zone 2. I spent a long time puzzling over this one. I think the explanation is that I was not training in Z2, I was trying to find that border between Z2 and Z3. I’d want to be less breathless for training in Z2. I say as much in my script “This slight breathlessness estimates the top of Zone 2. You’d train below this level where you talk a little more freely.”
@@alwaysanotheradventure I think numbers supported by subjective feelings are the way to go. I like what Phil Maffetone says about picking the right aerobic training heart rate, in that he says you should.see noticeable improvements and if you don't it's likely you've picked a number that is too high. He also states that you should feel able to train at that heart rate day after day without excess fatigue and that after most workouts (except long ones), you should feel like you should be able to turn around and do the whole thing again
@@alwaysanotheradventure yeah I think data and subjective feeling is way to go. Just lots of people convince themselves they are in zone 2 when they are actually a good chunk above it. I like what Phil Maffetone says about correct aerobic training zone in that he says you should end a workout feeling like you could do the whole thing all over again (not for especially long workouts but for bread and butter ones) and that if you have the correct training heart rate you should get faster at that heart for many months without plateauing.
One odd question, I noticed the handlebar on your bike seems to have a good rise on it, can you share what handlebar that is? I'm looking for something similar for my gravel bike.
I must admit I don't really understand how your top of zone 2 can be 147bpm. If I remember correctly Attia and Millan suggest top of Z2 to be 75% of max heart rate. If 147 is 75% of your max then your max heart rate would be 197! And I think it isn't,. Also, they would say if you come out of Z2 (higher) it takes around 20 minutes to get back into that mitochondrial boosting phase. What did the Napier say about your LT1?
My LT1 is at 147 according to Napier. I agree it seems a bit high, but I have to assume they know their stuff. That said, the talk test at 142bpm sounds like the start of Z3. Attia (quoting San Millàn recommends this method (p240 of his book). My maxHR is 173 in the subsequent VO2max test on the same day. Attia goes on to say (once you know your maxHR) “…your zone 2 will correspond to between approximately 70 and 85 percent of that peak number…” recognising it’s a wide spread and people lie outside it. On my data it would put my top of Zone 2 at 138.
@@alwaysanotheradventure I thought Millan referred to 70-85% of ftp hr not max hr. Whatever the figures I would support your premise of doing a lot of Z2 work with the 20% Of Z5 training which I guess is the subject of another vlog. Very enjoyable and informative as ever.
@@johnbronze8630 Hey John, yeah, we'll not keep going on this, but the two videos have taken WEEKS to make, exactly because I was attempting to iron out some of the confusion. I can't post a Jpeg here but if you Google search "inigo san millan training zones" and click Images you'll see his diagram which is very helpful. He doesn't break it down into maxHR%. I've heard him and Prof Seiler resist this because they're estimates averaged out from a population size. And if you just search Zone 2 heart rate, you'll mainly get results that say 60-70% or 65-75% MaxHR. This is what I meant by folks not agreeing! San Millan's diagram has the start of Z6 (he uses 6) at 175bpm, so not too far away from my HRmax. His Z2 boundaries are 121bpm to 142 bpm. Mine were given as 121-147, so pretty close. His 6 zone model has two zones 3 and 4 between LT1 and LT2. Last time I looked GCN were doing this too. My coach just used three - the one to do most training in. The one to do a little hard training in. And the one between to avoid. Life was simpler!
In both cases it’s 75.5 cm from BB centre with same crank length. Bar height lower in the test but that’s as high as it could go. Also bike bar height too high while I tested new bars - now swapped out.
Also I'm not a fan of Peter Attia or any of the self proposed exercise physiology gurus. They all tend to ignore the neuroscience, which is hopelessly ignorant and fantastically stupid.🤦
The definition of Z2 top in the system I'm suggesting is LT1, as presented by Inigo San MIllan & Peter Attia, the leading exponents in this field. That's when Lactate in blood starts to rise above 1.7 milimoles per litre and is below 2. That can only be measured in a lab. Mine happened at 147bpm and I also have the wattage. Anything else is an estimate - might be close, might be wildly out. The talk test is a good way to tell if you're in Z2. In this video I feel I was crossing into Z3at the time, so effectively found the top and it was close to the measurement.
@@alwaysanotheradventureTnx. I realise all of us are different. I did a lactate threshold test when I was around 40, I ticked up at 105 whereas others ticked up at 140-160. Similar ages. I’ve also got a very low resting HR of 44 and my max HR both riding u der heavy load experience and a ramp test is 160. Main things like you said is to enjoy it and get fitter as we age. Thanks for the vid!!!!
@@alwaysanotheradventureNo, it's my GPS watch that reads slow when I'm running ! 😅Your Max HR is way higher than mine at 173, Mine is 144 on my Park run, when i am retching at the end 🤔 Doc reckons I have an irregular heart beat, so not sure if that affects it,
@@nicnak4475 😂 I was discussing the maxHR with an exercise physiologist last night, someone with a PHD who has actually written (co-authored) a text book on this stuff and conducted many, many tests like the one I did. 173 was WAY higher than my previous max recorded when riding and even racing - 167. He explained that does regularly happen in a test situation because you are pushing yourself to utter exhaustion (you'll see this in next Sunday's video) and don't even have to stay upright on the bike. It was a surprise to me. I'm not sure what an irregular heart beat would do? Have you seen the video with a cardiologist I made? Might be helpful? ua-cam.com/video/olg90Dq9ay8/v-deo.html
That old 220-age formula ought to be retired. 🤨 Much like the pyramid of food groups, what matters is a varied but balanced mix of physical activity. At least that’s what feels best to me. 😌
Either all the experts (Peter Attia included) are way off base or your numbers are way off base. A 65 year old man can maintain a HR of 147 for up to an hour (recommended Zone 2 session)? I'm 70 years old and have been cycling for 30+ years including lots of Zone 2 and VO2 training and could only achieve a HR of 147 for a max of 10 minutes at the very end of a VO2 max session. If you can do this for an hour, I tip my hat to you. Please do a video of you doing a 15 min. session at this level. It would provide an enormous amount of motivation for me to actually see this done.
Greetings Mr Smith. Is that your real name? I wouldn't get yourself too worked up about my numbers - they're for me to deal with and use for training. I'm talking to Napier about their conclusions. I'm not going to post a video for you. Nor am I going to follow-up this thread. It ends here. The principle remains accurate. Napier puts my LT1 at 147 and max HR at 173. LT1 is the top of Z2 in most 5 and 6 zone systems.
Worth noting that hr max and zones vary significantly across individuals. My mhr has always been over 200 and still is now in my late 50s. 147 I can hold comfortably for extended periods.
I said that to my wife the other day. “I don’t have the time necessary to run a sub 3 hr marathon.” I just don’t have the time to develop the systems, I think anyway. I’m 63 and only started running a few years ago. Hopefully I can get to a 3:45 marathon. I’ve yet to run a marathon 😂
It’s great to have a goal but it needs to be achievable. How about setting some smaller goals along the way as stepping stones? Maybe you’ve already done that?
Maybe it is time to leave behind "Older Athletes" theme. Sorry to say this is getting a bit boring. like your channel better before this blue talk . You are consumed by the fact that you are getting old, this fact does no good for anybody. Perhaps you could round off the topic by having a conversation with an expert about how to come to terms with the fact that nothing should last forever, and that is fine also. Next time you could put out something there was not only a reflection on you own time in lift. Could be something joyful. As arnold swatsenegger puts it...... Judgment day is inevitable you can only postpone it.
I'm sorry you feel that way Lars, and thanks for letting me know. May I point out that the last two videos were nothing to do with this series. One was gravel biking ua-cam.com/video/Q6d56CysLd8/v-deo.html and one was backpacking ua-cam.com/video/suyKwIF1fXY/v-deo.html This video had more views in 24hours than both the others have had to date put together. So it's clearly popular with someone, although I take your point. The monthly podcasts are not part of the series either. My plan is to run a mix of episodes for as long as possible. May I also point out that you know nothing about me or my motivation, so to make daft statements like "You are consumed by the fact that you are getting old, this fact does no good for anybody" is insulting, hurtful and plain wrong.
@@alwaysanotheradventure Can say that i am also sorry that you fell that way. Don't want you to feel hurt and for sure don¨t want to insult you, and yes i could be wrong. As you pointet out, i know nothing about you and your motivation... this is also right. I only know what you have told in your videos. You want to keep on as long as possible, that i know. We all want to , this is human nature. I think I heard you say in one of your videos that you don't give a fu.. what other people think, am i right? You have a large majority who give you positive comments. so enjoy.
This is soooo encouraging. And finally a video that lets me feel ok that my “wearables” keep insisting I’m way above zone 2 while my own talk-test estimate says no. My heart rate has always skewed higher than average for my age, even when young, so I tend not to be concerned, but still… was nice to see that your own heart rate zone 2 threshold was much higher than the old percent-of-max HR formulas.
I have found that to be true too. We can't pay too much attention to Garmin etc that uses algorithms derived for the "average" measurement that takes no account of health, physical condition, temperature, terrain and so on. Nobody is an average.
@@drichi07 Me three
You certainly are adept making complex medical and scientific information accessible to everyone. Another brilliant video. Thank you!
Nicely done. I like the comparison of values from different tests at the end. Talk test for the win.
Thank you so much for this series! Incredibly informative & easy to follow without the hyperbole of so much of this type of content.
I don't mind getting older, since it beats the heck out of the alternative. ⚰
Great advice again as always, for us sadly getting older ❤ great series
There are two ways of looking at exercise as we get older.
One is from a performance standpoint (for those masters athletes out there). The other is from a health and longevity perspective (for the rest of us).
This video started off from a performance standpoint, but at the end you pulled it back to a level that was applicable to most of us. Listen to your body seems to be sound advice that most of us can get behind. There is a difference between maximising performance and going too deep into all these training variables like heart rate zones…and optimising outcomes while exercising around real world situations.
Hi Stuart - I'm sorry that's what you took from it, because I was very much going for health throughout. If I was going for performance, I wouldn't have started with Zone 1. Nor would I have spoken about efficient training, enjoying our chosen sport for as long as possible, or helping us live a longer, happier healthier life. I'm not sure how you took a performance slant from those words and my beginning the body of the video in Zone 1 but I'm sorry if you feel it was the wrong approach.
@@alwaysanotheradventure no, my apologies, I probably misread your intent. I do that at times.
I would say that for the majority of the population talk about heart rate zones is too complex and fussy for them to bother with. So the talk test that you describe is a good compromise.
Thanks, great to see that the "talk test" can give relatively accurate results. Lately I have been trying to train mainly in my current settings for zone 2 but so much of the time I end up in zone 3 without even noticing any strain or lactate build up. Beginning to think that my zone 1 and zone 2 need to be stretched out and zones 3 and up should be compressed.
Awesome video! Really looking forward to the follow up video. I’m 56 and have finally stopped training like a lunatic. I now incorporate Z2 rides and 1-2 weekly VO2 sessions. My goal is to be as fit as you when I’m your age.
One way to obtain maximum efficiency is to do it six days a week. Maybe not as much volume. And then just add the higher intensity interval training at the very end. But really working at steady state zone two. In a way it’s like music or anything else. If you do less of it, but more days a week you get a large uptick in affect and efficiency and results.
I am 57 and my father has been a world-class Alpine Mountain climber from age 30 up to 80. He improved every single year. He didn’t have all the information but he did apply it. He had the metabolic health of a top athlete in their early 30s .
Had he never drank alcohol, he would still be soloing mountains with 70 pounds on his back beating the tar out of 20-year-olds.
Thanks for the series. Good to learn from others in slowly advancing years.
Thanks much for a very practical and helpful video. I’m closing in on 67 and take a coupleheart meds that (among other unhappy effects) limit my heart rate. If I were at your zone 2 rate of 142, I’d be about ready to pass out. It’s helpful to have a better idea what works for me, and to know I can currently get a decent amount of exercise at my zone 2 if I pedal to the point of broken sentences for 3 hours a week. That’s do-able!
Same age. You’ve had atrial fibrillation too? Race you! Very slowly.
Good video. I like the idea of listening to your body when training. I also use my Garmin watch a lot because often I'm rubbish at listening to my body, and the watch is the closest thing to a nagging coach that I have. But I'm always trying to listen to both where I can
Thanks again for another great video. I haven’t measured myself for a while, something to do soon!
Thanks for this...I'm 64 with a tested max HR this year of about 180, Garmin says my Z2 should top out in the low 130's which is very low for me, not even remotely breathless. I'll do a "breathless test" this week and tweak my devices' target zones 1-2-3, probably will leave 4-5 more or less as they are. Not to obsess about zones but it's useful to have a personal compass of sorts as a guide ;) Cheers
Sounds good.
Thanks for this video. Having watched countless videos about zone 2, this is the first time I've seen the difference between calculated zone 2 (as a percentage of max hr) and actual being discussed much. I've never done testing but have always felt that my zone 2 is much higher than my 75% of max heart rate formula. I've filmed videos narrating riding on mountain bike trails and I was confused by the fact that my heart rate was way beyond my calculated zone 2 yet my conversation with the camera continued in a similar manner to when yours when you mention you're reaching the top of your zone 2. I had heard Peter Atila talking about the conversation test but dismissed it because that hr value when my conversation wasn't possible was about 25 to 30 bpm higher than calculated upper zone 2 (I'm in my mid '50s with an actual max HR in the mid 180s). Anyways, appreciate hearing your thoughts on this!
My HRmax is 173 tested at that session in Edinburgh. I would have thought my top of Z2 was about 130bpm but seems not.
If the Hr formulas are trying to estimate LT1, and LT1 fluctuates daily given the factors mentioned, I suppose it’s no wonder they’re out.
It took me a long while to get my head around this - about 4!attempts to make this video!
An excellent video highlighting just how complicated this gets because the experts can't agree on a common standard or vocabulary. Never mind that the very scientific sounding formulae are often wildly out. I particularly like how you highlight walking as useful exercise. Too many runners and cyclists ignore it. I would prefer more recreational athletes go for a 'recovery walk' instead of a slow ride or run. I try to cycling 300-400 miles a month and walk at least 30.
You're going well Hugh!
Thanks for that, I will check it out.
Once again a excellent video. Great information. A suggestion for a future video. How about going deeper into a activity like walking, like what are some of the best shoes to wear, howcto get most out of your walk, etcetera. You could do this with different physical activities. Looking forward to the next video.
Possibly Roger - we're doing more walking this year because a big backpacking trip in Iceland is planned.
Thank you for this series and another informative video.
At my age I can no longer talk in complete sentences in any zone. Is it a problem of lactic acid or brain cells?
Excellent information and very well explained. Thank you so much for posting.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for that Simon. another great video.
Great video. Thank you for providing this information.
Another well researched and informative vlog. Thank you.
Cracking video, very helpful, thanks
Thanks Ian
This is a great video series! Thanks!
Glad you enjoy it Chris
Excellent video, explained really well, thank you
Glad it was helpful!
This was really excellent Simon, quality stuff!
Thank you James
Hi Simon, I got cut off on an earlier comment, computer issues. anyway I was saying I have been active all my life but have had problems with weight until I adopted a "No processed foods/no sugar and I do a intermittent fasting (time restricted feeding) and since then I have been maintaining my weight easier. I really like your videos and I feel you cover the subject of "older Athletes" quite well. And yes I think there is more than 10 years left in our ability to do the sports we love. I am planning on do a 12 hour cycle event/race in November and if you think of any advice you can send me I would appreciate it. Keep up the great videos
Sounds exciting - and long! I've done two one-day events of roughly that duration; a big European cycle sportive and an Ironman. In both cases, the deciding factor was nutrition. I enjoyed the Ironman, but the sportive was the worst day I have spent on a bike. What made the difference was the food.
I kinda thought it didn't matter too much when I did the sportive. I'd done big days on the bike (Raid Pyrenean sub 100hrs) and stopped at lunchtime for real food. The sportive made utterly different demands, and no time to stop.
What worked for me wouldn't necessarily work for you, but my only advice would be to pay significant attention to this during training. I try to start with 'real' food (soft white rolls and cream cheese for example), before venturing into sports products and finally gels, but that profile is for triathlon. Sean (who is a highly experienced long-form triathlete) talks about it in one of our Century ride videos - ua-cam.com/video/Gh99ieV6KXE/v-deo.html.
Useful to get a sense of the top of zone 2 via breathing. I think that for seniors, that 220 - age could be way off (I am at least 15 beats higher)
The standard deviation from all the research is 15 - so any given individual could be 30 beats out!
220-age is way off, even as a population average. Various formulae that use .68 or .70 time age are closer, but still population based. There's a huge individual variance. Also, 75% of max (or whatever) is also a wild-assed guess, probably too low. For me 80% of heart rate reserve (gap between resting and max) is much closer. That's maybe 85% of max. This is consistent with what Stephen Seiler says. Look him up if you're unfamiliar with him.
Great stuff..keep it coming!
Broke my spade gardening today so I guess digging is a pretty good activity.
My dad broke his spade in 1971. He screwed, glued and lashed it.
Still works- Spear and Jackson #5...it's in my shed now.
@@Ey_upAlways a good day with a Ripping Yarns reference.
Wonderful video, as always, Simon. On a different topic, have you ever posted your homemade energy bar recipe? I do apologize. Haven’t been able to find it.
I haven’t- I rarely make them.
Saw video from a masters rowing conference. They were suggesting that Relative Perceived Exertion around 12 is quite a good alternative measure. lots of stuff about RPE on the interwebs.
Yes - RPE is a great way to listen to your body. But sometimes hard to place yourself on the scale (how does 6 out of 10 feel different from 7 on any given day?). That’s why I like the idea of the two metabolic thresholds, which are real measurable changes. They work like a couple of anchors around which RPE - in my view - works best.
I always struggled with RPE…and I suspect many would, based on their personality / motivation. The more motivated of us ( that used to be me) would estimate their RPE on the low side ( I never thought that I was working hard enough), whereas the less motivated would think that they were working too hard.
This was seen in a weight training study where even experienced trainees struggled to estimate how many reps they were away from training to momentary muscular failure. Most estimated on the low side by a good few reps.
From Oz … everybody is different that’s for sure. But we are all the same in that we function physiologically in the metabolic pathways, albeit that few of us are at the same point on the path as Tedej Pogacar - undaunted, at about three times his age, I’m working on my mitochondria.
Inigo San Millan 6-zone. Lots of zone 2 for maximum mitochondrial expression and metabolic health.
Ye I read his stuff - it’s brilliant and used by Dr Peter Attia too.
But San Millan puts two zones between Lt1 and LT2. It’s excellent for faster younger riders looking to push their Z3 at tempo. Not sure it’s so useful for older folk - that’s the next video.
@@alwaysanotheradventure Inigo talks about training in all zones, but how the most powerful zone is the one 2, because how it uniquely builds and optimizes the health of every aspect of mitochondria and metabolism. It’s the gold and diamonds secret weapon! Not speckled down to academia or the medical community yet. It will probably take five or more years.
A lot of people know zone two is popular but DO NOT understand WHY? “Maximum mitochondrial expression.“
I tested this recently and was totally blown away at what I was able to do, and I’m 57. It is also, with no competition, by far the most powerful prescription for overarching cellular and full metabolic health, which is really the base foundation to everything!Once people understand this, they will also understand that nutrition and supplements, and all of the other stuff is peripheral in comparison. It can complement the base, but we need to major on the majors and minor on the minors. If people simply did one hour of steady state zone 2 training a day, six days a week, the entire United States would see an astonishing and utter turnaround of health of all forms! unfortunately people don’t understand this most essential foundation. So they get caught up in the weeds.
@@alwaysanotheradventure also, I believe it is great for all ages. Basically get an hour of steady state zone 2 in, then finish off with some varying intervals of zone three through six. Yesterday with a rucking vest, I walked up a steady hill that took me an hour to get to the top, at 5000 feet, I was in perfect zone 2 the whole time! Maximum mitochondrial expression. But then I pushed myself as hard as I could the last four minutes. That was just one interval. If I continued the same routine five or six days a week, I would slowly build a little bit more VO2 Max at the end. And have fun with it.
Maybe be all out one minute intervals. All out two minute intervals…. Up to about 8. maybe sometimes just sprinting for 20 or 30 seconds. But keeping the high intensity stuff down to five, to at very most 15 or 20% of the total. And of course, easing into this extremely slowly, to avoid injury and burn out. Unless a person is training for a specific event, I think that the interval hiit can easily be just 1-10%. It goes along way!!!
My dad did this his whole life and was doing it in his 80s (still getting stronger every year as a world-class Alpine Mountain climber ) and had the metabolism of a top athlete in their 30s.
Just subed to you videos.Great info.I am a 80yo lady in the US and back in the day have done a small bit of running and biking.So why am I watching your videos and not sitting in my recliner knitting botties?I try to stay in some form of shape and in January of this year got my second hip replaced and has really knocked my fitness down a lot.I am back to being able to walk a bit a watch my heart rate with a chest strap.Have been doing treadmill at a walk zero incline at 2.5 gets me to about HR of 103 and doing th.e talk test is my zone 2. Not sure what vo2 is but not sure at my age what my max is so guess this is a start any ideas for me to improve??
Hi Anita - thanks for the comment and I don't know enough to be able to offer you reliable advice about training. I'm pretty good at pulling together sources of info and making them understandable, but I don't want to pontificate when I don't know. When I find myself in that position, I try to find an expert.
That's what I've done for our strength training; I found a woman who specialises in coaching older folk (she has clients in their 80s) and her approach to my wife and I is quite different to the 20 year old body builders. I realise you didn't ask about strength training, but I'm using this as an example. That said, strength is absolutely crucial to all of this.
Is there any chance you could find a personal trainer near you with the knowledge, understanding, and genuine interest with whom you could work for a few sessions to set you on the right track?
I often find myself recommending the book 'Outlive' by Dr Peter Attia. You might find that encouraging and a good way to progress. At least you'll know the questions to ask any potential trainer! The best of luck.
great video. What is your max heart rate and how did you establish that.
As part of that test I did a vo2max as well (next video Zones 3-5) and that set a new max HR of 173 for me.
@@alwaysanotheradventure thanks
I'm just curious if you have had a bike fit? The gravel bike you were cycling seemed very long in the top tube for you?
I haven’t had a fit on that one and I agree. I had the original Camino and it turns out this new one has a different geometry! Not sure how long I’ll keen this one.
Your video reinforces my impression that most "run slow to get fast" advocates set the pace way too low. My max HR is about the same as yours, and I can run comfortablly at 130-150 pbm. Over an hour, I have a fair amount of drift (more than when younger). So I push harder to hit 130 at the start than 145 at the end. Never do I get as out of breath as you appear in the video. Stephen Seiler suggests that "slow" (which he calls zone 1 and you call zone 2) is 80% of max power, which is about 80% of max heart rate reserve (based on a true max HR, not 220-age or whatever). For me, that's 148. MAF would have me training at 115. I do that (or less) every morning on my indoor bike. But for training benefit in running, I do 130-150. For occasional intervals, I do 160+.
Did i hear you say that you were being investigated for a possible heart flutter? I was diagnosed with a heart flutter last year. The consultant said that i could continue to run. However, is it possible to follow HR based training, & calculate HRZ's when one has a heart flutter? Thank you
I had a weird HR spike that was investigated thoroughly and nothing found. Even so I wouldn’t dare advise on something medical like that, sorry! However it’s a great question if you could ask a cardiologist who is familiar with your case. I know that’s very not helpful, so my apologies.
At 1 min 30 sec, when did you get one of those bikes with the drivetrain on the left? Is that to ride on the continent🤔
Well spotted! I needed a shot riding that way to cut with the next one.
You have a very high max heart rate for someone who is 65 years old, at 173! I am in my late 50s and almost bang on the formula estimate.
These equations have a standard error of estimate of around +/- 10-12 beats per minute. Taking the classic 220-age equation (not the best!) for example, that means, for people who are 60 years old, the average max heart rate will be 160 bpm. Around 68% of them will have MXHR between 150 bpm and 170 bpm, and 95% will be between 140 bpm and 180 bpm. And 5% of 60-year-olds will have a max heart rate above/below even these boundaries! (These are conservative estimates; a +/- 12 bpm SEE would lead to even greater disparity).
Separately, the classic 220-age equation has been shown quite conclusively to also have a fixed bias, such that it underestimates MXHR in older adults and overestimates MXHR in younger adults.
Good video as ever however at 5 mins 30 that looks much more like a zone 3 effort than zone 2. Always best to be conservative I think, you're still getting massive aerobic benefits at lower heart rates without the risk of overtraining, injury, illness etc
I agree, it does look like that if you go by conventional assessment.
And yet it can’t be - it’s borderline at best. Because I’m 5bpm below my measured lactate threshold, and that defines the top of Zone 2.
I spent a long time puzzling over this one.
I think the explanation is that I was not training in Z2, I was trying to find that border between Z2 and Z3.
I’d want to be less breathless for training in Z2. I say as much in my script “This slight breathlessness estimates the top of Zone 2. You’d train below this level where you talk a little more freely.”
@@alwaysanotheradventure I think numbers supported by subjective feelings are the way to go. I like what Phil Maffetone says about picking the right aerobic training heart rate, in that he says you should.see noticeable improvements and if you don't it's likely you've picked a number that is too high. He also states that you should feel able to train at that heart rate day after day without excess fatigue and that after most workouts (except long ones), you should feel like you should be able to turn around and do the whole thing again
@@alwaysanotheradventure yeah I think data and subjective feeling is way to go. Just lots of people convince themselves they are in zone 2 when they are actually a good chunk above it. I like what Phil Maffetone says about correct aerobic training zone in that he says you should end a workout feeling like you could do the whole thing all over again (not for especially long workouts but for bread and butter ones) and that if you have the correct training heart rate you should get faster at that heart for many months without plateauing.
One odd question, I noticed the handlebar on your bike seems to have a good rise on it, can you share what handlebar that is? I'm looking for something similar for my gravel bike.
Hi Colin - this is one by Redshift Sports.
Top Shelf Handlebars by Redshift
ua-cam.com/video/ZxOOKO2HBMg/v-deo.html
Thanks, just what I'm looking for.
Thanks, just what I'm looking for.
I also skew low. My resting HR is 44
Snap
I must admit I don't really understand how your top of zone 2 can be 147bpm. If I remember correctly Attia and Millan suggest top of Z2 to be 75% of max heart rate. If 147 is 75% of your max then your max heart rate would be 197! And I think it isn't,. Also, they would say if you come out of Z2 (higher) it takes around 20 minutes to get back into that mitochondrial boosting phase. What did the Napier say about your LT1?
My LT1 is at 147 according to Napier. I agree it seems a bit high, but I have to assume they know their stuff. That said, the talk test at 142bpm sounds like the start of Z3.
Attia (quoting San Millàn recommends this method (p240 of his book).
My maxHR is 173 in the subsequent VO2max test on the same day.
Attia goes on to say (once you know your maxHR) “…your zone 2 will correspond to between approximately 70 and 85 percent of that peak number…” recognising it’s a wide spread and people lie outside it.
On my data it would put my top of Zone 2 at 138.
@@alwaysanotheradventure I thought Millan referred to 70-85% of ftp hr not max hr. Whatever the figures I would support your premise of doing a lot of Z2 work with the 20% Of Z5 training which I guess is the subject of another vlog. Very enjoyable and informative as ever.
@@johnbronze8630 Hey John, yeah, we'll not keep going on this, but the two videos have taken WEEKS to make, exactly because I was attempting to iron out some of the confusion.
I can't post a Jpeg here but if you Google search "inigo san millan training zones" and click Images you'll see his diagram which is very helpful.
He doesn't break it down into maxHR%. I've heard him and Prof Seiler resist this because they're estimates averaged out from a population size. And if you just search Zone 2 heart rate, you'll mainly get results that say 60-70% or 65-75% MaxHR. This is what I meant by folks not agreeing!
San Millan's diagram has the start of Z6 (he uses 6) at 175bpm, so not too far away from my HRmax. His Z2 boundaries are 121bpm to 142 bpm. Mine were given as 121-147, so pretty close.
His 6 zone model has two zones 3 and 4 between LT1 and LT2. Last time I looked GCN were doing this too.
My coach just used three - the one to do most training in. The one to do a little hard training in. And the one between to avoid. Life was simpler!
Your seat height is very high. But when you did your lab test, your seat was set at a much lower height.
How much are you aware of these issues?
In both cases it’s 75.5 cm from BB centre with same crank length. Bar height lower in the test but that’s as high as it could go. Also bike bar height too high while I tested new bars - now swapped out.
I was comparing the lab test set up to your position on the bike at around 1:32 where your legs are very straight at bottom dead centre.
Also I'm not a fan of Peter Attia or any of the self proposed exercise physiology gurus. They all tend to ignore the neuroscience, which is hopelessly ignorant and fantastically stupid.🤦
142 sounds high for z2. I'm guessing you're around 60? I'm 62 and my z2 tops at 126
The definition of Z2 top in the system I'm suggesting is LT1, as presented by Inigo San MIllan & Peter Attia, the leading exponents in this field.
That's when Lactate in blood starts to rise above 1.7 milimoles per litre and is below 2. That can only be measured in a lab. Mine happened at 147bpm and I also have the wattage.
Anything else is an estimate - might be close, might be wildly out. The talk test is a good way to tell if you're in Z2. In this video I feel I was crossing into Z3at the time, so effectively found the top and it was close to the measurement.
@@alwaysanotheradventureTnx. I realise all of us are different. I did a lactate threshold test when I was around 40, I ticked up at 105 whereas others ticked up at 140-160. Similar ages. I’ve also got a very low resting HR of 44 and my max HR both riding u der heavy load experience and a ramp test is 160. Main things like you said is to enjoy it and get fitter as we age. Thanks for the vid!!!!
I always keep in mind that “Jesus wept” is the shortest complete sentence from the bible. I sometimes use it while my HR creeps out of zone 2.
😁
Excercise Zones are somewhat subjective based upon the individuals state.
There are two physiological markers which do fluctuate given the factors mentioned. Other boundaries are almost arbitrary.
My Garmin estimated closely to 220- age. I can pass the talk test at a much higher rate
OK
Oh, haha, I didn't like the first words you uttered. haha, I don't need reminding
Yeah - hard truth to kick off with. But am I right?
@@alwaysanotheradventureNo, it's my GPS watch that reads slow when I'm running ! 😅Your Max HR is way higher than mine at 173, Mine is 144 on my Park run, when i am retching at the end 🤔 Doc reckons I have an irregular heart beat, so not sure if that affects it,
@@nicnak4475 😂
I was discussing the maxHR with an exercise physiologist last night, someone with a PHD who has actually written (co-authored) a text book on this stuff and conducted many, many tests like the one I did.
173 was WAY higher than my previous max recorded when riding and even racing - 167. He explained that does regularly happen in a test situation because you are pushing yourself to utter exhaustion (you'll see this in next Sunday's video) and don't even have to stay upright on the bike. It was a surprise to me.
I'm not sure what an irregular heart beat would do? Have you seen the video with a cardiologist I made? Might be helpful? ua-cam.com/video/olg90Dq9ay8/v-deo.html
Attia is pronounced A-Tee-Ah
That old 220-age formula ought to be retired. 🤨 Much like the pyramid of food groups, what matters is a varied but balanced mix of physical activity. At least that’s what feels best to me. 😌
Zone 1 and 2 🤣🤣🤣🤣 we are older, not dead
3-5 in next video
Either all the experts (Peter Attia included) are way off base or your numbers are way off base. A 65 year old man can maintain a HR of 147 for up to an hour (recommended Zone 2 session)? I'm 70 years old and have been cycling for 30+ years including lots of Zone 2 and VO2 training and could only achieve a HR of 147 for a max of 10 minutes at the very end of a VO2 max session. If you can do this for an hour, I tip my hat to you. Please do a video of you doing a 15 min. session at this level. It would provide an enormous amount of motivation for me to actually see this done.
Greetings Mr Smith. Is that your real name? I wouldn't get yourself too worked up about my numbers - they're for me to deal with and use for training. I'm talking to Napier about their conclusions. I'm not going to post a video for you. Nor am I going to follow-up this thread. It ends here.
The principle remains accurate. Napier puts my LT1 at 147 and max HR at 173. LT1 is the top of Z2 in most 5 and 6 zone systems.
Worth noting that hr max and zones vary significantly across individuals. My mhr has always been over 200 and still is now in my late 50s. 147 I can hold comfortably for extended periods.
I said that to my wife the other day. “I don’t have the time necessary to run a sub 3 hr marathon.” I just don’t have the time to develop the systems, I think anyway. I’m 63 and only started running a few years ago. Hopefully I can get to a 3:45 marathon. I’ve yet to run a marathon 😂
It’s great to have a goal but it needs to be achievable. How about setting some smaller goals along the way as stepping stones? Maybe you’ve already done that?
Maybe it is time to leave behind "Older Athletes" theme. Sorry to say this is getting a bit boring. like your channel better before this blue talk . You are consumed by the fact that you are getting old, this fact does no good for anybody.
Perhaps you could round off the topic by having a conversation with an expert about how to come to terms with the fact that nothing should last forever, and that is fine also.
Next time you could put out something there was not only a reflection on you own time in lift. Could be something joyful.
As arnold swatsenegger puts it...... Judgment day is inevitable you can only postpone it.
I'm sorry you feel that way Lars, and thanks for letting me know. May I point out that the last two videos were nothing to do with this series.
One was gravel biking ua-cam.com/video/Q6d56CysLd8/v-deo.html and one was backpacking ua-cam.com/video/suyKwIF1fXY/v-deo.html This video had more views in 24hours than both the others have had to date put together. So it's clearly popular with someone, although I take your point.
The monthly podcasts are not part of the series either. My plan is to run a mix of episodes for as long as possible.
May I also point out that you know nothing about me or my motivation, so to make daft statements like "You are consumed by the fact that you are getting old, this fact does no good for anybody" is insulting, hurtful and plain wrong.
@@alwaysanotheradventure
Can say that i am also sorry that you fell that way. Don't want you to feel hurt and for sure don¨t want to insult you, and yes i could be wrong.
As you pointet out, i know nothing about you and your motivation... this is also right. I only know what you have told in your videos. You want to keep on as long as possible, that i know. We all want to , this is human nature.
I think I heard you say in one of your videos that you don't give a fu.. what other people think, am i right?
You have a large majority who give you positive comments. so enjoy.