Wow. Just wow. That is a statement. My 2nd though was that the beautiful platforms and their goings on are now obscured. What you definitely need is a camera mounted inside in a corner is the roof that looks over the station interior that you can show on an old LCD monitor in the attic.
Thanks for those kind words mate. I use 2mm thick card and 1mm for the medium card. I glue it in place with plenty of UHU (Yellow tube). It dries fairly quickly, 'rubs' off if you spills it on something and appears to be strong and long lasting. I went through 5 large tubes doing this entire station SO FAR!! Cheers Dave
Superb station Dave really looks the part you must have loads of patience to be able to do this you've done a great job,Scalescenes look amazing when finished but me being in a large garden shed I don't trust using card or thick paper buildings due to temperature changes. The coal loads look the best I've seen and a superb fit by the look of you video. Excellent and very well explained video. Cheers Kev .
Awesome Dave! Great update and superb work on such an imposing structure on your layout! Looking forward to It sitting nicely within the rest of the station scene! :D
Cheers mate, yeah I am going to light it. It is dull inside just now, no sure if I will use down lighters or free standing lamp posts.Kytes lights have down lighters which I might wire in like you did you Peco shed. The loads are not that heavy...I will weight one and get back to you. My load of 19 hoppers is easily pulled by the 56 at low speeds and it can go rapidly with the fully 19 hoppers too. In time I will be putting a flashing tail light in the last hopper, train tech I think do them!
Dave The canopy for the station is first class and really sets off the station. Very impressive work. I am also using scale scenes buildings given I need to construct about 320. Perhaps 40 of them will be terrace houses so the down load cost of $8 will cover all 40 buildings. As you suggested the options to mix and match using the scrap builders yard are great.One option I have fond is you can use a film to run the black acetate printed film through a laminator and convert them to white. really useful for houses. Look forward to the rest of your videos as the layout continues to develop. regards, Anthony Ashley
Anthony Ashley Interesting idea! So far I just use clear plasticard for the buildings and the thin printer proof acetate for the roof of the canopy...sealed with coast of spray varnish. Thanks for all of your comments. I enjoy reading them. Cheers. Dave
Fantastic station it looks amazeing well worth the price for buliding, i was thinking of a smaller version for my terminus but gave up on the idea as it was to arkward to do re: roof struts. I also gave up on the dapol catenary as the cost was to much ..great wagon loads i will check them out.....jim ,manchester..
Cheers, appreciate that. Yeah when everything else is in place it should look good! That is if the heat up the attic at the moment doesn't melt it first lol
Hi, thanks for watching! It is a Scalescenes kit with a bit of customisation! These Scalescenes kits are great for building as per instructions or changing them to suit your needs. Check out my other videos! Thanks again. Dave
Hi Steve, funny you should say that...I have just finished building and painting a Dapol Footbridge. I will therefore be putting it on the layout in the next wee while and will PROMISE to show you the underside of the roof. I have been a bit busy of late and it was just too hot up the loft even to go up and film! My next update will be in September and you will see the roof!
Hi, My loft has temperature fluctuations, but its always dry, and the Metcalfe & scalescenes kits I had placed up there last spring (2012) are still in tip top condition, so hopefully the rest of my buildings will stand the test of time and our British summers and winter temperatures!! I spray them all in matt varnish to protect them from fading and moisture, so I have done all I can! If they last 5 years and I have to do them again, I will maybe do that....but to be honest I'd rather not! lol
Hi Steve, so far so good (touch wood!). I have been going up and checking, but the glue is holding firm and the paper/card is doing great. Maybe the layers of matt spray varnish over everything is helping matters. It is regularly 30 degrees up there just now. But I expected (hoped!) them to be fine, as my tunnel mouth I build in Spring 2012 is still in A1 condition, as are my Metcalfe card buildings. Hope things cool down though...I am tired of the heat!
Really good station canopy. I was planning on building 5 of them and joining them together, after watching this video I can see what the finished result looks like. What glue did you use to fix the curved roof sections down? I used heavy card and found it difficult to get the entire section to stay flat. Your layout is an inspiration.
lol, cheers. I will listen to myself and see how I say it. I hate listening to myself on video...I sound so Scottish, but I actually don't think I am that broad Scots....it takes others to point it out to me. But thanks for your comment, it made me chuckle! Dave
it's looking very good mate. I will give you the dimensions of our waverley box when i get home on friday. I'm working down on the railways of england.
This is what I was waiting for (following your videos in sequence); the arched station canopy. My goodness it looks magnificent. It's an absolute credit to you. As I don't have a loft in my New Zealand house - and so don't have 7m straight - I'm going to attempt a similar station on a flexi track curve on one of my layout corners. Might be ambitious, but I'm going to give it a crack. Do you reckon the arches could be arranged to work on a curve (e.g. like York)?
Hi, thanks. I really like my roof. It was a lot of work but really is a focal point of the station. On a curve… thst could be incredibly difficult to do with this kit. A braver man than I would attempt it ;-) Cheers Dave
The upper level will be a key part to the layout. On the other side of the layout the TMD will be on the upper level, so most of the other side will be elevated. However the TMD etc, that's a 2015 onwards job lol
Did you lay your track without gaps at the fishplates? I left gaps to cater for expansion, time will tell if I left enough gaps!! Did you have to replace it? The roof wasn't cheap, glue, card, paper, print outs, spray varnish, spray glue, pritt sticks, acetates, etc, prob nudged £40 - £50 in total, but there was no alternative roof out there that I liked and that would do the job! so I had to make it.
Dave, not sure if you’re planning on doing more card models elsewhere on the layout but I may have found a cheap supply of card, I do a lot of photography (bear with me) and mount my own photos which leaves me with a pile of A4(ish) pieces of 1mm card which I’m then using to make my Scale Scenes buildings, I’m sure if you contacted your local camera club you’d find several photographers with piles of off cuts.
Have you thought about using the silver insulated material that some UA-camrs have used for their lofts. I was originally in the loft got it all sorted then the kids had it instead so had to get a large shed,the kids have now grown up so its now used has a storage room so I will never be able to use it. Good idea spraying them with matt varnish not thought of that might give it ago I use plastic buildings and cost a fortune plus I also scratchbuild to keep costs down . liking the layout, Kev
Just came across your channel, through another subscription on youtube. I actually love your station. You probably have stated in another video, but is your station canopy a custom or ready built model?
Fantastic work on the station Dave, it really looks the part. Are you considering lighting it up? The wagons loads are very cool too, can you give me a rough idea of how heavy they are? I don't want my locos struggling too much on the helixes. Keep up the good work.
Hi Dave, l want to have the same overall roof similar to your roof and have made two arch sections but don’t see where the glazed panels fit unless you sandwich the glazed panels before glueing the outer arch to the inner arch. Is that how you did your roof.
Nice layout :) and im sorry but im gonna have to point this out I love the way you say girders haha it reminds me of my building site operating manager he is scottish and says girders in a simlar dialect to you and cracks me up every time. But overall i like the big cannopy im gona check it out online.
i did leave some gaps in places but it was all laid in the winter months and it wasn't enough in places... plus i have soldered joints at each end of the boards so i can relocate it at a later date... thankfully i haven't ballasted yet, so the movement was sideways creating a wobbly route! lol. i guess there isn't an alternative for that sort of station roof, tho i have seen some people make their own and peco do a kit.. which i bought 5 of and ive decided not to use them! :-/ Lee
Looking good mate!... That roof is a 'sizeable' investment tho! Lol :-S. hope the heat in your loft didn't buckle your track like it nearly did in mine!? :-/ Lee
Hi, thanks. I have the Queen Mother, its a great loco. I have kind of blown my budget for the next month as I have a Hornby HST and Bachmann CL47 'Fire Fly' on order with a full rake of Hornby MK2D swallow coaches. So at this time I cant stretch to yet another loco. I would love to add to my fleet of 47s...but sadly my bank account wont let me buy any more. You looking for £100 for each loco? You are right about ebay...they rip you off.
Hi Dave, Love the canopy, the clear glass looks really grimy and weathered, I didn't know you can print on acetate, so I looked on Ebay and it is available and quite reasonable in price. One question: do you have a special printer for this? I do lots of printing and Photoshop work, but I don't have an acetate option in the drop down menu in printer settings,,,,, I have an Epson P50, cheers, Dave
I just use my photo ink jet Epson for it. Set it on a good setting. Remember and use acetate suitable for ink jet. The stuff I use has a very slight rough finish on one side...that's the side that takes the ink. Let it dry for a good hour after. Then use spray matt varnish to seal it in. This also give the effect of dulling down the shiny finish.
DaveClass47 Cheers, thanks I meant in the paper sheet settings (glossy, satin, matt, photo, premium photo) So I just go with best photo, and just set it on normal paper then? I'm just getting back into modelling, I'm very impressed with the scale scene stuff, far better than what was around in the 60's and 70's ......and thank God for UA-cam! and Ebay, I've ordered some card fixing glue and matt spray varnish, so should be fun! thanks again for your time to answer
Haha :) I have a few Scottish friends and I always crack up when they say words like "Truck" and other words that bring out the accent. Also for £4 a section the station isnt half bad !
Hi, thanks for your comment. I take your point on board. I was going to make it longer but wanted to see some platforms that's why I did it like that. I also left the sides of the station roof open so you can see in, its a bit dull just now but when I get the lights etc in it might be a bit better. ;-) Cheers
DaveClass47 I used to have loads of the Hornby see through Perspex ones and even though you could see a lot more with them I just feel the track and the trains are the point of the layout, its like when people have a huge tmd but all the locos are in sheds its like...why? your detail though is immense I will give you that I love the way you have done your trunking so exact to the real spacing and how the aws boxes look just like the real thing, I will need to research my positioning of them a lot more now. keep it up I like to watch all of your videos
MrTimmsy1986 Cheers for the comments. I like to add in the little bits of details, like the trunking, aws boxes, dummy point motors, signals, etc its what makes a layout interesting. Keep watching mate, I am hoping to ballast the station area in the autumn and then all of the detail will hopefully start to really get fixed in position etc Dave
MrTimmsy1986 Timmy, I am just playing around brother. Also, You want to see the best Modeler on here. Look up Lex Parker. He is the Best. His detail is absolutely incredible. he builds everything from scratch. Check out his Waterfalls, trestles, Bridges, etc. You name it this guy does it to exact scale. All done with wood for his Scratch built work. Peace Bud. HAPPY HOLIDAYS
Well that was a strange about turn, ok I will do and thanks be good to see more amazing modellers and hopefully get tips for my own, I will remove my retaliation insult also.
Great update and your station is brilliant!!! Fantastic look !! Thanks
What a fantastic station !! That canopy from Scalescenes is just great. I wouldn't mind having a stab at it myself.
Wow. Just wow. That is a statement. My 2nd though was that the beautiful platforms and their goings on are now obscured. What you definitely need is a camera mounted inside in a corner is the roof that looks over the station interior that you can show on an old LCD monitor in the attic.
as always, a great descriptive video, its great to also see that you are planning an upper level too. Keep up the good work!
wow im very impressed with the station canopy dave.so far dean park is shaping up to be a truly inspiring layout.
terry
Outstanding station canopy ❤
it looks fantastic! Yes looking forward to seeing the other side of it,well done!
wow that canopy really changes the overall apearance of the station!!
Wow the layout looks brilliant and the roof is AWSOME ;) well done
Cheers. Yeah I am limiting my cantenary to just the 2 upper mainlines, when they are built!! Thanks for your kind comments.
Thanks for those kind words mate. I use 2mm thick card and 1mm for the medium card. I glue it in place with plenty of UHU (Yellow tube). It dries fairly quickly, 'rubs' off if you spills it on something and appears to be strong and long lasting. I went through 5 large tubes doing this entire station SO FAR!! Cheers Dave
Love what you have done so far your definitely keeping me inspired with my lay-out
The station canopy/roof looks absolutely awesome. Really does look like a city station now. Look forward to more.
Wow the roof looks great, and a cost of 40-50 is fantastic value, not expensive at all for the size, it's all so impressive now
Awesome, this will be one of the best stations on youtube layouts. Jason.
It is looking fantastic. Great job on the roof.
Superb station Dave really looks the part you must have loads of patience to be able to do this you've done a great job,Scalescenes look amazing when finished but me being in a large garden shed I don't trust using card or thick paper buildings due to temperature changes.
The coal loads look the best I've seen and a superb fit by the look of you video.
Excellent and very well explained video.
Cheers Kev .
Awesome Dave! Great update and superb work on such an imposing structure on your layout! Looking forward to It sitting nicely within the rest of the station scene! :D
Wow...that's some complement, Massive Thanks. Dave
Cool, they didn't look too heavy when you were handling them. I'll look into getting some.
It is a massive centre piece and my aim is to get a good reaction from those who see it, so your comment is encouraging lol. Cheers
Cheers mate, yeah I am going to light it. It is dull inside just now, no sure if I will use down lighters or free standing lamp posts.Kytes lights have down lighters which I might wire in like you did you Peco shed.
The loads are not that heavy...I will weight one and get back to you. My load of 19 hoppers is easily pulled by the 56 at low speeds and it can go rapidly with the fully 19 hoppers too. In time I will be putting a flashing tail light in the last hopper, train tech I think do them!
I can't wait to see more fella, looking grand!
cheers Ron, just watched my own video there, it looks better on camera than in real life lol.
Dave The canopy for the station is first class and really sets off the station. Very impressive work. I am also using scale scenes buildings given I need to construct about 320. Perhaps 40 of them will be terrace houses so the down load cost of $8 will cover all 40 buildings. As you suggested the options to mix and match using the scrap builders yard are great.One option I have fond is you can use a film to run the black acetate printed film through a laminator and convert them to white. really useful for houses. Look forward to the rest of your videos as the layout continues to develop.
regards,
Anthony Ashley
Anthony Ashley Interesting idea! So far I just use clear plasticard for the buildings and the thin printer proof acetate for the roof of the canopy...sealed with coast of spray varnish. Thanks for all of your comments. I enjoy reading them. Cheers. Dave
Fantastic station it looks amazeing well worth the price for buliding, i was thinking of a smaller version for my terminus but gave up on the idea as it was to arkward to do re: roof struts. I also gave up on the dapol catenary as the cost was to much ..great wagon loads i will check them out.....jim ,manchester..
Well done ..... Looks very nice indeed.
I've just watch this for the Third time and still very impressed a great job!
That is a very impressive canopy.
Looking very nice smart layout
Cheers, appreciate that. Yeah when everything else is in place it should look good! That is if the heat up the attic at the moment doesn't melt it first lol
Hi mate, coming from you, I really appreciate it that comment Terry. I only hope it is a fraction as good as your work!
Your layout is looking great keep up the good work.
Hi, thanks for watching! It is a Scalescenes kit with a bit of customisation! These Scalescenes kits are great for building as per instructions or changing them to suit your needs. Check out my other videos! Thanks again. Dave
amazing well done great layout.
one of the best stations ive seen
Cheers, much appreciated guys!
I have to admit....I have watched it once of twice hehe
Hi Steve, funny you should say that...I have just finished building and painting a Dapol Footbridge. I will therefore be putting it on the layout in the next wee while and will PROMISE to show you the underside of the roof. I have been a bit busy of late and it was just too hot up the loft even to go up and film! My next update will be in September and you will see the roof!
Cheers mate, really glad you like it. :-)
Hi, My loft has temperature fluctuations, but its always dry, and the Metcalfe & scalescenes kits I had placed up there last spring (2012) are still in tip top condition, so hopefully the rest of my buildings will stand the test of time and our British summers and winter temperatures!! I spray them all in matt varnish to protect them from fading and moisture, so I have done all I can! If they last 5 years and I have to do them again, I will maybe do that....but to be honest I'd rather not! lol
I hope it will be an awesome FINISHED station EVENTUALLY lol cheers for the comment. ;-)
Hi Steve, so far so good (touch wood!). I have been going up and checking, but the glue is holding firm and the paper/card is doing great. Maybe the layers of matt spray varnish over everything is helping matters. It is regularly 30 degrees up there just now. But I expected (hoped!) them to be fine, as my tunnel mouth I build in Spring 2012 is still in A1 condition, as are my Metcalfe card buildings. Hope things cool down though...I am tired of the heat!
Good work on the station I'm in the middle of building the same kit in N Scale
WoW..Very nice , Great work
Really good station canopy. I was planning on building 5 of them and joining them together, after watching this video I can see what the finished result looks like. What glue did you use to fix the curved roof sections down? I used heavy card and found it difficult to get the entire section to stay flat. Your layout is an inspiration.
lol, cheers. I will listen to myself and see how I say it. I hate listening to myself on video...I sound so Scottish, but I actually don't think I am that broad Scots....it takes others to point it out to me. But thanks for your comment, it made me chuckle! Dave
it's looking very good mate. I will give you the dimensions of our waverley box when i get home on friday. I'm working down on the railways of england.
Yeah I will be having a city at one end of the layout in the corner!...maybe even two ends of the layout if I think it looks better. ;-)
This is what I was waiting for (following your videos in sequence); the arched station canopy. My goodness it looks magnificent. It's an absolute credit to you. As I don't have a loft in my New Zealand house - and so don't have 7m straight - I'm going to attempt a similar station on a flexi track curve on one of my layout corners. Might be ambitious, but I'm going to give it a crack. Do you reckon the arches could be arranged to work on a curve (e.g. like York)?
Hi, thanks. I really like my roof. It was a lot of work but really is a focal point of the station.
On a curve… thst could be incredibly difficult to do with this kit. A braver man than I would attempt it ;-)
Cheers
Dave
The upper level will be a key part to the layout. On the other side of the layout the TMD will be on the upper level, so most of the other side will be elevated. However the TMD etc, that's a 2015 onwards job lol
That is very fantastic on this video works! ^_^
Did you lay your track without gaps at the fishplates? I left gaps to cater for expansion, time will tell if I left enough gaps!! Did you have to replace it? The roof wasn't cheap, glue, card, paper, print outs, spray varnish, spray glue, pritt sticks, acetates, etc, prob nudged £40 - £50 in total, but there was no alternative roof out there that I liked and that would do the job! so I had to make it.
Dave, not sure if you’re planning on doing more card models elsewhere on the layout but I may have found a cheap supply of card, I do a lot of photography (bear with me) and mount my own photos which leaves me with a pile of A4(ish) pieces of 1mm card which I’m then using to make my Scale Scenes buildings, I’m sure if you contacted your local camera club you’d find several photographers with piles of off cuts.
This is an awesome station best on here
Very study! one 3 roof section slipped off my kitchen table during construction, no damage at all! Use UHU glue and you'll be 'set' for success lol.
Nice work!!! I watch for the Scottishness as much as I do for the trains :)
Cheers, still a lot still to do on this part, but its starting to look like a station now! ;-)
Hello David when are we going to see the Underneath this canopy?
Looks amazing
Cheers, it took me 5 weeks, working most nights for 2 hours! but it turned out well I think.
Its not difficult, it just takes time! Have a bash!
Have you thought about using the silver insulated material that some UA-camrs have used for their lofts.
I was originally in the loft got it all sorted then the kids had it instead so had to get a large shed,the kids have now grown up so its now used has a storage room so I will never be able to use it.
Good idea spraying them with matt varnish not thought of that might give it ago I use plastic buildings and cost a fortune plus I also scratchbuild to keep costs down .
liking the layout,
Kev
Thank you David, Cheers for now!
did you have to print hem out yourself or do they come in a flat pack that you build yourself?
Printed myself, mounted on to card using spray glue.
brilliant, thanks.
Just came across your channel, through another subscription on youtube. I actually love your station. You probably have stated in another video, but is your station canopy a custom or ready built model?
Fantastic work on the station Dave, it really looks the part. Are you considering lighting it up? The wagons loads are very cool too, can you give me a rough idea of how heavy they are? I don't want my locos struggling too much on the helixes.
Keep up the good work.
LOL, ok, a get you. Crossed wires! Yeah I will turn it over in a future vid ;-)
Hi Dave, l want to have the same overall roof similar to your roof and have made two arch sections but don’t see where the glazed panels fit unless you sandwich the glazed panels before glueing the outer arch to the inner arch. Is that how you did your roof.
Yes the glazing went on before the top cover of detail that you see from the outside.
Hello Dave, How are all the card buildings doing in this heat?
Ok this video answered my question for me.
Nice layout :) and im sorry but im gonna have to point this out I love the way you say girders haha it reminds me of my building site operating manager he is scottish and says girders in a simlar dialect to you and cracks me up every time. But overall i like the big cannopy im gona check it out online.
AMAZING
That looks amazing and must have taken you ages to put together!
Cheers Dave regards Steve
That should be the underside of the canopy!
Dave just brought this kit tonight what card did you use ?
cool, let me know how that goes!
awesome
Hahaha! Herbie The Love Bug making a cameo appearance XD
cool
i did leave some gaps in places but it was all laid in the winter months and it wasn't enough in places... plus i have soldered joints at each end of the boards so i can relocate it at a later date... thankfully i haven't ballasted yet, so the movement was sideways creating a wobbly route! lol. i guess there isn't an alternative for that sort of station roof, tho i have seen some people make their own and peco do a kit.. which i bought 5 of and ive decided not to use them! :-/ Lee
Looking good mate!... That roof is a 'sizeable' investment tho! Lol :-S. hope the heat in your loft didn't buckle your track like it nearly did in mine!? :-/ Lee
The station look kl don't think I would be able to build a card kit like that looks tricky
Hi, thanks. I have the Queen Mother, its a great loco. I have kind of blown my budget for the next month as I have a Hornby HST and Bachmann CL47 'Fire Fly' on order with a full rake of Hornby MK2D swallow coaches. So at this time I cant stretch to yet another loco. I would love to add to my fleet of 47s...but sadly my bank account wont let me buy any more. You looking for £100 for each loco? You are right about ebay...they rip you off.
Hi Dave, Love the canopy, the clear glass looks really grimy and weathered, I didn't know you can print on acetate, so I looked on Ebay and it is available and quite reasonable in price. One question: do you have a special printer for this? I do lots of printing and Photoshop work, but I don't have an acetate option in the drop down menu in printer settings,,,,, I have an Epson P50, cheers, Dave
I just use my photo ink jet Epson for it. Set it on a good setting. Remember and use acetate suitable for ink jet. The stuff I use has a very slight rough finish on one side...that's the side that takes the ink. Let it dry for a good hour after. Then use spray matt varnish to seal it in. This also give the effect of dulling down the shiny finish.
DaveClass47 Cheers, thanks I meant in the paper sheet settings (glossy, satin, matt, photo, premium photo)
So I just go with best photo, and just set it on normal paper then?
I'm just getting back into modelling, I'm very impressed with the scale scene stuff, far better than what was around in the 60's and 70's ......and thank God for UA-cam! and Ebay, I've ordered some card fixing glue and matt spray varnish, so should be fun!
thanks again for your time to answer
go with standard setting, or matt? try them out and pick the best.
cheers, I do try! ;-)
I would probably give up making that train station r u gonna have a city?
about 5-6 weeks, but in man hours probably well over 70 hours!!
Haha :) I have a few Scottish friends and I always crack up when they say words like "Truck" and other words that bring out the accent. Also for £4 a section the station isnt half bad !
sorry dave this kit i printed out from scalescenes Large Overall Roof R005a
Try it, its not difficult, just large! lol
Herbie! :D
Herbie!!
I forgive you lol
I only have one thing to say,
Sorry didnt mean to dislike. Sorry
yeah very dramatic now you cant see anything in the station, not a fan of overoofs for layouts that you want to actually see
Hi, thanks for your comment. I take your point on board. I was going to make it longer but wanted to see some platforms that's why I did it like that. I also left the sides of the station roof open so you can see in, its a bit dull just now but when I get the lights etc in it might be a bit better. ;-) Cheers
DaveClass47 I used to have loads of the Hornby see through Perspex ones and even though you could see a lot more with them I just feel the track and the trains are the point of the layout, its like when people have a huge tmd but all the locos are in sheds its like...why? your detail though is immense I will give you that I love the way you have done your trunking so exact to the real spacing and how the aws boxes look just like the real thing, I will need to research my positioning of them a lot more now.
keep it up I like to watch all of your videos
MrTimmsy1986 Cheers for the comments. I like to add in the little bits of details, like the trunking, aws boxes, dummy point motors, signals, etc its what makes a layout interesting. Keep watching mate, I am hoping to ballast the station area in the autumn and then all of the detail will hopefully start to really get fixed in position etc
Dave
MrTimmsy1986 Timmy, I am just playing around brother.
Also, You want to see the best Modeler on here. Look up Lex Parker. He is the Best. His detail is absolutely incredible. he builds everything from scratch. Check out his Waterfalls, trestles, Bridges, etc. You name it this guy does it to exact scale. All done with wood for his Scratch built work. Peace Bud. HAPPY HOLIDAYS
Well that was a strange about turn, ok I will do and thanks be good to see more amazing modellers and hopefully get tips for my own, I will remove my retaliation insult also.