Shad's much anticipated HEMA face-off
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- Опубліковано 7 вер 2024
- After having studied and practised Historical European Martial Arts and swordplay by myself I finally got to meet some HEMA practitioners and put my sword fighting skills to the test!
I'd just like to say that this fight was way better than most people expected. Good job guys! :)
Thank you so much mate! I’m truly honoured you think so.
It’s interesting, quite often when I tell people I’ve done martial arts or comment about martial arts people don’t take me seriously. And then they either continue thinking I’m full of it or actually get to see me fight and realise that I’m at least not hopeless at this stuff. I wonder if it’s because I don’t look like what people think a competent martial artist should look like. I’m overweight, a huge nerd that wears superhero t shirts, and I wear glasses. If that’s the case there’s’ little I can do about it and I’ll just have to keep trying me best.
Thank you so much for watching the video for as you know I’m a big fan of your videos. All the best mate.
I know that feeling. I am a part of a small HEMA Community but i am also a 130 kg lardass that doesn´t really look the part. It does help to not be seen as a threat though. Especially since i also favour "lazy-looking" guards. The low ones, sword just pointing sadly toward the ground or hanging to the side. Countering swordplay with Close actions like wrestling and pommel strikes is suprisingly effective... and fun as all hell.
Shadiversity WTF are you talking about? A lot of people in HEMA fit that category.
Aldito Hernandez True my friend does fit this category and I guess I half fill it too.
Oh you had this low expectations of Shad? ;)
"If it works, it aint stupid"
"If it keeps you alive, why stop using it?"
''If it ain't broke, don't fix it'' also works
A better saying would be "If I can pay someone to allow it to work then I shouldn't fix it, only give my living fencepost a raise"
You can use what Shad says as an example when he calls mutual death strikes as sloppy while in the same breath saying it takes technique to do (He seems to think that it just looks bad or something?). Also in his review of the fight shows an example of himself doing that exact thing and then admits that he used a throw he never practiced which is dangerous and unprofessional and also resulted in his weapon being grabbed and the "unorthodox swordplay" has nothing to do with his sloppy footwork. It was entirely to do with the grappling the two engaged in which is simply not a typical part of hema, which is based on weapon fighting not grappling, in fact the grapples success is further proof of Shad being bad at swordplay and the opponent being to noob to properly counter the move (opponent admits to 8 months hema experience, Shad has had years of of self teaching). Per the fight against the instructor shows this further. As per his "it takes more strength to use one handed swords" is complete bs, they are lighter and therefore cannot be more physically taxiing, what they are though is a more skill based weapon and require technique and proper footwork. Both Shad is lacking, Shad is also lacking in physical fitness training which is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF SWORDPLAY. What Shad is saying is him using what works for him is literally just him saying "my practice targets don't move and my sparring partners are under my payroll and anyone who is better than me gets fired" 7 years later and this is the only real sparring event he's been a part of and he lost his match against someone with less experience and while he was at this event argued the purpose of low guards because of muh personal preference lmao. The only technique in hema that doesn't work for someone particularly are techniques that work for everyone willing to practice and actually take the time to learn. Yeah it takes physical fitness to learn hema techniques but his im 300lbs and refuse to exercise technique was unable to score a victory against a less competent fighter per Shads own definition of practice.
I think I cared more about this unofficial sporting match than the Super Bowl.
same here
Nice
Probably because expectations for the super bowl are way higher. And the patriots ruin everything.
super bowl ... that's a sport, right?
Preach!
Oh man, that "telegraph lunge" is a brilliant bit of swordplay! What I consider a mark of master fighters is that they attack as much using psychology as physical blows.
Thanks for the like, Shad! Also, I'd be super interested in a video where you do this kind of commentary/explanations of other techniques, particularly some of your "unorthodox" ones :)
It is really weird that I used to play uni hockey (variant of hockey, as you might have guessed. Slightly different rules to standard hockey). I was really good at attack and really bad at defence. One trick I used to do is jump around on my feet so that the opponent didn't know where I was going, then I would do a 'feint' in one direction and hit the puck in the opposite direction to get past the opposing team's defences. It was a trick that I had a lot of success with.
It's so strange how many similarities in tactics that I've seen between uni hockey and swordplay. Although there are obvious differences. I think upper body strength is less important than lower body strength+stamina in uni hockey.
The reasoning for it is sound, but overusing it is risky- once an opponent knows you're going to do it they can just step inside when they see you shift your weight ready to do it.
Nice one indeed.
But isnt that also quite risky?
If your opponent engages close combat by making a smaller step into you, it should get awkward for you land a hit AND your balance should be off so he can throw you to the ground with a little bit of footwork. Is that plausible?
Dont roast me. I admit to know nothing about hema. Just asking.
I call it the Shad Step
A lot of people were expecting you to fight like samwell tarly. You proved them wrong.
Who is samwell tarly?
Тупичок Гоблина: В поисках утерянного СССР you’re pure evil good sir and I love it!
@@nickbruce6859 If you haven't already looked it up he's a character from George R R Martins A Song Of Ice And Fire book series and from HBO's Game of Thrones which was based off it
@@nickbruce6859 game of thrones
@@MattcraftMSTR lol the dude is even dressed like sam too
Shad I want to apologize. In the video "the problem with HEMA" I didn't give you enough credit. But after the first bout when you explained what you meant by "not in the manuscripts" I am behind you fully. The physical action with the explanation helps get the point across to me anyway. Well done with that grapple as well when he hit the ground and you both stood there for moment wondering what to do next.
@john stolz sounds like you wouldn't do good in a street fight
I love how respectful he is throughout all of this. I feel like every other time I have seen someone talking about martial arts of any type they have been far too opinionated and closed minded about what works and what doesn't whereas Shad treats everything as a learning opportunity
Just a clarification for the viewers, Lorne has only been practicing HEMA for a short time and doesn't primarily train in longsword at all (at the school he trains at he has a focus on Italian single handed techniques and dagger), so for those of you thinking he didn't do an amazing job, ask yourself if someone with only a few months of training in any martial art would be expected to dominate.
Shad has an unorthodox style but has clearly had lots of 'freestyle' practice. The results of his longsword fight are exactly what I would expect; a few months of HEMA vs a much longer period of other martial arts and freestyle practice and it turned out to be more or less equal.
Great job both Lorne and Shad :-)
In a real fight? Frankly yes I would expect that. I mean if you asked them to perform a kata, they'd probably be way behind; but in my experience training has almost no bearing on actual fighting. It really only serves as exercise and building confidence.
It looked great from both sides! Think I met Lorne at Swordfish 2016, could that be correct?
I would not expect him to dominate with just a few months of practice. I would expect Shad to fight someone better, though. He has a strange style, that is for sure. However, I do see several techniques that I could do and I am pretty sure Shad could not counter. Our friend Lorne here obviously does not know the techniques. Which is ok... but not in a fight like this.
I definitely don't think Lorne did poorly. I couldn't imagine being trained to expect certain things then all of a sudden thats all thrown out the window when they other guy doesn't throw the moves YOU know of in that field. Given 1 day of sparring the fight could have been drastically different.
@Jason Voorhees I doubt you are a retired fighter like you say you are, first off if you were you would understand the nature of competition and they were sparring you have no respect for either competitor and you throw around useless insults that only make YOU look idiotic and (Autistic as you said). If you were really a fighter you would have respect and not lash out over the internet like a little keyboard warrior.
Maybe there are some really good moves that were used historically but weren't in any treatises because whoever came up with them didn't want anyone to be able to beat him.
AgentXA564 there are many commentaries historically that confirm that
AgentXA564 Lichtenauer.
AgentXA564 Fiore
Or didn't have the money or time to make treatises too ^^ There are many regions of europe which probably had their own fighting styles but have no known treatises ^^
Or got burn in many many fires that occure in history, or got burend in WW2, or are in private colections. Knowlege has been lost in history so may times
Where do they think the techniques in the treatises came from? It was people experimenting and finding what worked for them and others. I think it's equivalent to saying that a theory cannot be considered 'scientific' if it's not already accepted. It's extremely limiting.
Also most swordsmen wouldn't think to write about small details like this or other tells. They might have kept it to themselves purposely as if people new about their style they would be at a disadvantage in a fight
I think part of the problem is that there are people with different goals who have the two problems problem that they are communicating imperfectly, and because the presence of other practitioners of sword combat to practice with is a scarce resource, they are competing to use that resource to accomplish their goal. Some HEMA practitioners (and Shad) want to be the most effective fighters they can be with traditional European swords. Other want to recreate and preserve traditional European sword combat as precisely as possible based on known sources. Maybe call them "Pragmatists" and "Preservationists" although I wouldn't be surprised if there are other existing terms.
Those are both completely reasonable goals to have and those from each group are better off having the other group around than not having them because more other practitioners is better, but they are also necessarily going to be in conflict at times.
I agree with the premise that an untrained/self trained fighter who is able to adapt and improvise under pressure sometimes has an advantage over a trained fighter who has over trained a few key techniques and has consequently limited their useful repertoire.
I might add, untrained fighters resort to some wacky attacks that are "gambles" at best. Trained fighters are predictable, which makes strategy viable.
Untrained fighters have one massive disadvantage, (in any marital art), being distance management or a sense of it.
I would stay max distance. Wait for a missed attack and close distance. Than constantly aggressively close than go to back max. You need your opponent to believe they are NOT safe at any distance. Fight direction and posture for your next play with them doubting you're next move is how you win almost anything competitive.
That Daniel guy, the instructor, looks like a drunken shaolin monk, when he fights. Hilarious but still very elegant.
Yes he looks like the type of guy who enjoys playing with his opponent just because he can. :)
well didnt looked that superior have to disagree with shad there... the drunken shaolin technique looked kinda sloppy and not that effective...
@@barniyamumOf course it's sloppy - we're playing with dussacks, not fencing :)
Maybe check out some actual HEMA videos of fencing for specifics :)
@@DanielPopeScholarVictoria well i guess i didnt expressed myself very well there... just wanted to point out that it didnt "looked" that superior... not that it wasnt...^^ but u clearly closed the gap much more efficiently^^ and well i am not an expert^^ more like a beginner myself... it looked like a fun match... and yea there is a difference between dussacks and fencing ^^ & what can look a bit sloppy from the outside ofc can work very well in the fight.. ;) ... and with 1h weapons its always good to save the momentum for the following move to save energy... so i think i see what u did there ^^
greetings
@@DanielPopeScholarVictoria ps: just rewatched the f8 quickly^^ i think if sb would count the points it would be close tho... the footage looks kinda even "point"wise^^ ...but i guess it wasnt really about points^^
and forgot to mention that how sth looks to the individual is ofc also subjective...and not just objective.... and in that light "drunken master"-style could be also taken as an insult in light of bullshitsu/ido...^^ depending on the context...;)
and also forgot to mention i guess that shad pointed out that he felt u were superior... says it all for me... when i do sparring with friends... both fighters usually notice who has the upperhand in the bout ;)... thought that was obvious since its in the video^^
This is Thrand! Great job Shad!!!
Your leg feint is definitely a cool personal touch. I think that the concept of feinting is almost too complicated to have a system in place since there are no fast rules to faking people out. It will always be based on the individual and how much they know your style as well.
Pomai Kajiyama I am more familiar with unarmed martial arts, but I think some nuance is always lost. It is a difficult thing to explain entirely without demonstrating.
Interesting you say that. I think a lot of people take the source material a bit too literally. Let's face it, feints and good foot work are a part of EVERY good fighting art, despite not being talked about in source material. The best way to avoid being killed by a sword (or punched with a fist) is to simply NOT be there. Which Shad brings up in his narration, about the reason he uses the feint. Its to keep control of his opponent and prevent being injured in turn. That simple idea is EXACTLY what these manuals are really trying to teach people. You're not supposed to stand there and parry the incoming strike like a robot if you can just dodge it. That would be suicide. The source material is teaching you how to parry in case you can't dodge it. You don't want to be in a bind if you can avoid it BUT..........it if happens you need to know how to get through it. If we were to watch real duels in the day, where death was on the line, I doubt everyone would be standing there trying to parry blows and disarm people. They'd be dancing around feeling each other out, dodging in and out with attacks and feints and retreats until someone screwed up.
Just commenting on the longsword fight, I think what was specifically going on is that Shad had more reach and tended to be the one to attack, and the Fiore fencer allowed himself to be put into reaction.
Shad, if you like attacking all the time, Johannes Liechtenauer might have gained another follower ;) I say this as a practitioner of Von Danzig's interpretation of Liechtenauer, so rest assured it's a compliment.
One comment I would make is that, if you're looking to avoid doubles, an option is to make an attack from out of distance to establish blade contact rather than trying to hit on the first intention. Some fencers are very reactive, like Lorne, and are more vulnerable to feints, but others will try to go on the offensive at the first opportunity. For the latter, trying to feint is a good way to double.
Related to that is the lunging footwork. It might be a deeply ingrained habit and it isn't wrong, but it is a bit limiting. If you make an attack with a passing step, you can cover more ground without contorting yourself the way you do in a lunge. Plus you give yourself the option of lunging with the pass if you really want to extend your reach.
A very good way to attack is to use a strike with a passing step to bring your point on line and engage your opponent's weapon, and then use a lunge to go in for the hit. Your mileage may vary; mine certainly does, but the best footwork, like the best techniques, is what gives you more options.
Once you have the bind, you can feel what your opponent is doing with his sword, be it pushing yours aside, ceding to your pressure, trying to lift or drop his blade, etc. Sometimes your opponent will flee the bind like you just tried to grope his undercarriage, in which case you can throw a quick attack to target while they are exposed.
People who mainly do Fiore often don't like the bind because Firoe mainly teaches expulsions, so it often freaks them out.
For that last bit- Fiore flat out says his art is in crossing. In my studies, expulsions aren't the main action, and in my observations, it's mainly been the novices who avoid crossing. We just don't do all the fancy winding.
Looks like a good time! What were the smaller sparring blades made out of that you didn't use padding to use? A wood frame with a dense foam covering? -Ryan
Nerdarchy they are called dussacks, and they are made out of wood with leather over them
If I saw them correctly, they are a design done by my hema teacher, Mark Holgate.
Nerdarchy I love your channel!
they are what was used in Joachim Meyer's the art of combat
So who else would like to see how well he does against someone who's been practicing hema for as long as Shad has been self learning?
And someone who actually studies that weapon (the guy he fought priarily focusses on single-handed swords and daggers, according to a comment from his instructor)
hallowedfool he’s instructor is making up excuses cos his boy made him look bad lmao
@@RandomGuy-ej9gr imagine giving an unnecessarily offensive comment 3 years later to feel good with yourself
OneOraToBreakItAll imagine bitching about the said comment left 3 years later to feel good with your self.
@@RandomGuy-ej9gr the instructor isnt wrong though that would be a very different change of pace
Don't be afraid of the person who knows 4000 different punches. Be afraid of the person who knows 1 punch, and has done it 4000 times.
How do you even punch 4000 different ways? There’s a lot but not that many right?
@@justsomedude4547 lol, I don't know. I probably miss quoted, and it was meant to be 100....But I'm sure Master Ken will teach us some day....
As far as I know, from practicing Kendo, I was told that the technique of fainting with the footwork is considered valid and historically accurate. In my opinion such moves are only good when you have good footwork.
Medicinaqueequilibra even for a cut you need good footwork and body mechanics, also retreat and advance. As written by Paulus Kal.
Paulus Kal, a master in the service of Duke Ludwig IX of Bavaria in the 2nd half of the 15th century, created an allegorical figure depicting three virtues of fighting.
The figure has a falcon's head, the image of a lion over its heart, and legs terminating in deer hooves.
Banderoles, or speech scrolls, issue from these three elements of the figure, reading from top to bottom: "I have eyes like a falcon so i will not be fooled," "I have a heart like a lion so i strive forth," and "I have feet like a hind so i spring towards and away"
These encapsulate the virtues of judgement, courage, and nimbleness, all necessary qualities for a good swordman or swordwoman.
All the technical training in the world means nothing without these qualities. Without courage, you cannot face your opponent or prosecute the fight.
Without nimbleness, your footwork and carriage will be unequal to the demands of the techniques you wish to employ.
Without judgement, you cannot measure neither the flow of the fight nor the opponent before you.
Source: Fighting with the German Longsword
Written by: Christian Henry Golber
+ColdNapalm42 Agreed. It's not like leg feints don't work but the one Shad is doing, in particular, is the least subtle feint I've ever seen. Wouldn't take a particularly skilled martial artist of any kind very long to punish it.
As a fellow (ex-)Kendo practitioner, I enjoyed seeing the bout between Shad and Lorne. I saw some interesting things.
First, I think they could both stand to make their footwork yet more efficient. While both moved with every attack (something useful that Kendo teaches), I saw a few cases where each combatant overextended themselves, which led to taking a hit. Given that this is swords, that could mean 'you die'. I'd propose that Shad work on tightening up his stances, and taking more controlled moves, but without sacrificing the aggression inherent in his style; indeed, factor your 'natural' movement range into your game plan and technique.
Before the judge joined, I noticed that Lorne fell into the Wrath/Wroth-guard. Since I've seen that technique on Skallagrim's channel, with his discussion of its merits and pitfalls, I was interested to see how that worked in actual sparring; unfortunately he didn't go with it in the actual, scored sets. This made me sad.
In the first set, Shad releases a quick thrust from outside of 'one-step/one-cut' range, presumably just to feel out his opponent, which was instantly rebuffed. While Kendo teaches us that attacking out of one-step/one-cut is at best ineffective, in a situation where you're dueling an unknown opponent with an unknown style and unknown capabilities, it's not without risk, but the upsides outweigh the downsides - Shad was able to get him out of a stance that looks much like Waki-gamae, and into something more predictable. This was a tactic I noticed that Shad performed sporadically a couple of times, presumably when he didn't like his opponent's stance, as in the case of the third set, when the opponent adopted that high guard - that particular guard has no counterpart in Kendo; the best I could come up with is 'a high jodan-no-kamae,' though a sensei would likely give me a stiff lecture for attempting to make that comparison (probably, you need to practice for a few years and be properly trained in jodan-no-kamae, in order to consider being able to discuss it - which, by the way, that stance wasn't).
The fifth set had both Shad and Lorne in a stance very similar to Chudan-no-kamae, the default Kendo stance, but with different foot positioning. That set went really quickly, but it was neat to see something similar to what I've learned.
The seventh set had Lorne executing a beautiful slashing attack, what we in Kendo would accompany with a hearty 'Men!' Specifically, hidari-men. Beautiful set by Lorne.
I'd like to see more HEMA sparring videos by Shad, both wins and losses, because to those of us with a non-HEMA background, it really serves to bridge the gap between what we know, with what we don't.
TheAsvarduilProject It's interesting to see kendo talking about the idea of "one step, one cut" because it helps reinforce, in my mind, how similar some martial arts are to others. For example, we actually see this kendo concept in Western boxing, specifically in Jack Dempsey's most famous book, "Championship Fighting". In it, he talks about how you should land your punch on the falling half of a forward strike. This allows your punch to have greater impact not only because of the forward movement behind it, but also with the slight addition of gravity. It also allows you to close into that scary "danger zone" between you and your opponent, which can open up more possiblities for you to defeat him. The only difference between Western boxing and kendo's application of it is that kendo uses a much pointier and sharper weapon.
ImNotHereNow - I think there's some confusion.
What you're calling 'one step, one cut' in Kendo is actually just the practice of moving while cutting. It's a fundamental in Kendo - it has no name htat I'm aware of. What I'm referring to when I say 'one step, one cut' is distance from your opponent - in Japanese, it's Issoku Itto no Mai, or 'One strike's interval'. There's two other 'intervals' taught in Kendo fundamentals - Tou Mai, or 'long interval', which is where you're outside of your opponent's reach entirely. There's also Chika-Mai, or 'short interval', which is where you're well within your opponent's reach.
That out of the way, when stepping and cutting, there's a similarity between Western boxing - we wind up the cut on the first half of the step, and deliver the cut on the second half of the step, just as you describe. When learning Kendo fundamentals, we begin from Chudan no Kamae, or what the German Fencing school would call 'long point'.
I strongly suggest seeking out a Kendo doshikai or dojo near you to properly learn the Kendo, and to receive actual instruction in the 'correct way' of performing Japanese swordsmanship. Alternatively you can learn Kenjutsu, which teaches the same skill set, since Kendo is a subset of Kenjutsu. Just be aware - in Kendo, you do sparring. Modern Kenjutsu does not feature sparring.
Now to get him a round trip plane ticket to London so we can see Shad Brooks v Matt Easton.
Dussack, not cutlass.
Noah Weisbrod that would be so funny Matt Easton is a very bad example of a Hema practitioner
@fighting arts of England If Easton is such a bad example of a HEMA practitioner I'd love to see you SPAR with him, you surely should have no trouble in besting him! Both of you being in England It shouldn't be too difficult to have that arranged. Looking forward to seeing the video!
it would be entertaining to see Matt destroy another youtuber haha, i would put money on Matt over any of the sword youtubers
@@AngloSaxon1 Looking at your channel, I doubt you would have a snowball's chance in hell.
"The best techniques are passed on by the survivors"- Gaiden Shinji. If a technique proves effectiv and helps someone surviving the battles he encounters, they are worthy. Of course you can use sources of certain techniques as a guidance, but finding your own style based on the basics is what someone achieves for. You could compare it with craftsmanship. You learn the basics, but each craftsman has its own signature. For example decoration techniques learned by painters and varnishers differ in end. Even when the technique which was used is the same. Its kinda like handwriting, everyone uses the same letters (the basics), but the result is different :)
Shad, this was super encouraging! I'm in exactly your situation: a casual LARPer, fascinated with HEMA, with no club around him and barely enough funds to support his hobby. Seeing your development has encouraged me to keep at it. :D
That's awesome to hear, best of luck with your practice mate!
Thanks! Your's too!
13:33 Ministrity of silly walks.
Good for you Shad, I have a few comments, I hope you don't mind.
1) Of course it is possible to learn HEMA from source materials, anyone that says otherwise doesn't understand what HEMA is. But you can learn a lot faster from someone who has already made the obvious mistakes. Every single HEMA group out there can trace itself to a person who learned from original source material. Often on their own for long periods of time.
2) I'd say any half experienced LARP swordsman would beat a HEMA practitioner with less than a year's training. So it's nice to see I wasn't far from the mark.
3) Visualisation is a very effective way of improving. I recommend people do it as part of their training.
4) I still argue that abandoning techniques that "don't work for you" is a problem if you do it too early. You'll never know if it is truly something that doesn't work for you, or perhaps something that doesn't yet work for you, but when you finally master it will make you significantly better.
5) You pulled off a technique that you had made part of your repertoire from Martial Arts in a context you'd never used it before. Interestingly the way you did it was not the way people instinctively tend to go for a back trip. That to me suggests that your martial arts training allowed you to take a counter-intuitive technique that didn't work for you first time round and make yourself a better fighter by training it again and again (see previous point :D )
6) Who is the guy travelling Europe?
7) Let me know if you ever make it to the UK.
Keep up the good work.
Oh I don't mind at all, in fact I was kind of hoping I would get to hear your thoughts on this fight so thank you for commenting.
One of my favourite videos of yours is the one where you share your thoughts on live action role playing, it's great to see Hema practitioners acknowledge the benefit LARP can offer to sword practice, as you've done ^_^
Oh yeah, repetition and practice are key to getting better, even if it's punching trees, lol. One of the ways that I determine if a stance or move is worthwhile to practice and try to learn is if I see someone else do something that worked really well and that my style cannot do. Of course I can't preform those new techniques properly the first time I try them, but the fact that I'm trying to learn them usually means that I intend to take them on board, but not all the time.
It's my dream to do a massive tour of the UK one day and visit all the castles. I certainly have to visit some hema clubs too ^_^
Thanks again for your feedback mate, and all the best with the recovery from your nose surgery, I hope you won't have to do those sinus rinses for much longer.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you are either a pretty natural fighter - your use of distance and your timing was very good - or that the practice you have from LARP has set you in very good stead. But that I think I could make you a very good swordsman indeed.
I won't go into detail unless you really want me to, but I think you have some bad habits, and you have some repeating patterns that a more experienced opponent would make you suffer because of, but all in all I think you could very quickly hold your own against most folk.
This video actually made your thoughts a little clearer to me than the last one, and I guess that our main point of disagreement is simply down to a different experience of HEMA, and a different end goal for training.
So if you do make it over here, do let me know - and aim to coincide with Fightcamp if you can. I'll introduce you to some of the LARP fighters I have infected with the HEMA bug.
Thanks Martin, I'm truly honoured that you think I could make a good swordsman.
I'd actually love to hear any feedback you would care to give, so please don't hesitate, heck do a whole fight review if you like. I'd certainly watch it ^_^
Well said.
In answer to (6) a couple of guys from FechtSchule Victoria in Melbourne have been over in Europe for the last few months, one of them basically going from HEMA group to HEMA group comparing interpretations and trying new styles. They dropped in on the London Longsword guys for a sparring session, and one of them currently in Eastern Europe prior to returning home.
Hi Daniel, You were the guy with the Dussack right? Nice form!
I was wondering if I'd managed to bump into any of your travelling swordsmen. It's really nice to see Autralian HEMA growing so much.
I love seeing him move. every once in a while I start to think of him as a fat nerd, then he does a vid like this and realize this "nerd" would mess me up many times over. good job sir
As a fellow glasses wearer, goggles might be a worthwhile investment.
Or contact lenses.
I just take my glasses off and it’s fine for boxing/kickboxing sparring
@@JourneyToTheCage it depends on how poor your vision is
@@naezjinra my vision is pretty piss poor but just for details. I won't be able to read the writing on your shirt but would be able to see punches and kicks or sword strikes coming in
@@JourneyToTheCage I do not disagree because I have poor vision as well without my glasses, but it does increase the challenge of judging strikes. That being said the difference in my fighting abilities with and without the corrected vision are vastly different simply because the subtleties of movement are more visible with the correction. When every movement is milliseconds of a difference to determine if you block or strike, it will make a difference when the fighters abilities are similar.
Great stuff sir, you walk the walk as well as talk the talk. Respect to you.
Finding out that you actually practice swordfighting (and actually do it independently too) made me love your channel more. Hope we get to see more of your encounters. Cheers!
Thanks for posting these two videos Shad! Looks like a fun weekend.
It was awesome and I'm so pleased that you like!
just stating i preferred "i am shad" to "shadiversity" none the less good video, was amusing to watch (in a good way)
I don't think your first opponent was reading you as well as you were reading him. It looked like most of what he doing was reactive rather than adaptive. Which makes a lot of sense given that he is probably used to sparring with people who color inside the lines. Whereas from what I've seen from you. You're more used to going up against people who draw their own picture just like you do. Anytime you fight you have to quickly figure out how your opponent is fighting because each time is bound to be different. Whereas most of his bouts are likely with the same group of people and so he doesn't get challenged enough.
I know this is an old video Shad, but i just want to let you know that following your channel and watching this video was a major inspiration for me to finally seek out and join my own local HEMA club. Thanks so much for years of great content and inspiration. Also huge congrats on your Novel i bought the paper back and ebook so far and am excited for the audio book!
The grapple & throw and your feints were very impressive! Unorthodox forever! Well done to you for managing to swordfight in Australia, I can't imagine doing that myself... The heat from the padded gambison wouldn't help either!
I studied modern fencing at a very low level years ago, but with an accomplished Olympic fencer, and that kind of stutter step before a lunge was one of the things we were taught. I am sure we had an Italian name for it that I no longer remember, but it is definitely a very effective technique.
I only just found this video, great job Shad you did awesome, I hope you stay in the Hobby I would like to see more HEMA videos from you.
Dan told you that his dussacks don't hurt, didn't he...
It's like working with mercury. It's high science, man. It's an art form. You an artist.
With that thumbnail, I thought it was going to be Skallgrim vs Shad.
That needs to happen, somehow, at some point. Unfortunately, if I remember my geography right, the entire Pacific Ocean disagrees with us. Skall is Canadian, and Shad hails from Australia. Unless Pangea reforms before 2021, I don’t think it’s gonna happen. They could split on a plane ticket, but which of those two would be selfish enough to claim home field advantage?
That telegraph lunge is ballsy. Bet it does work a lot, but it only takes once for it not to work. I like to play safe mostly. Great to see people keeping these arts alive. Well done.
As a kind-of self taught HEMA practitioner (Now instructor) I can say that you definitely can start practicing HEMA by yourself, you can learn all the techniques, develop decent enough body mechanics and learn a lot of the history behind our discipline. It gives you a very good base to work from, and it is quite easy to go towards more complex work from there. But my experience has shown me that you can't really develop the feel, speed and correct in-context execution of the techinques if not against an uncooperative oponent, if you wan't to become an efficient swordsman you MUST sparr regularly.
This is an old video I know but seeing you throw down makes me happy. I love your vids brother and people always sleep on guys who aren't lean or overly muscular but training in martial arts is better then muscle mass and even a speed advantage . Also nice ko-soto gari.
"I'd rather improve upon what is working and get better. Why? Because I'm lazy!" -this is the mark of a true innovator.
I like your style. It's like Jeet Kune Do with a sword. You seem to thrust right in once they advance and it seems almost 80% effective. Nice counterplay
Fun to watch! :) You said it: "...there is orders of magnitude of stuff that I can learn coming to HEMA." I hope a HEMA club opens up near you in the future - you'll love it! :)
kind of wish all the sword youtubers got to together to have a battle to see who has comparatively better swordsmanship
I've done that too Shad, I find if you mentally picture a set of movements enough your body figures out how to do it without much practice. I'm not an accomplished swordsman but I've won a few matches based on moves like that, actually exactly the same in one case, trip the opponent and finish them off, I won the match by only 2 points.
I feel really really old just wanting to look up some hema videos tonight and this was one of the first ones I found and I saw it was from 6 years ago and I remember when you first load is up I feel so old.😢
The feint you do with your lunges are in fact taught. I have studied under several schools that specifically teach that move to fool the enemy before you strike using the arms, both armed and unarmed. Pretty funny. I think you have good skill and it's natural skill which makes it appealing to me specifically. You could use some work on your guards but otherwise you're pretty good overall. I like how you think and the kind of person you are as well which is even better. Keep it up man!
The footwork feint is actually a (relatively) beginner level move in kendo iirc. Maybe its not exactly what you're doing, but kendo pays a lot of attention to footwork manipulation and foot feints. So yeah, it clearly works because the Japanese used to use it historically.
Shad is either really excited to be doing this, or one of those guys who can't wipe the smile off his face during a fight.
Does anyone else also always hear "Greetings, I'm Shagged!"
Shad explaining why pekka wizard valkyrie is good for 19 minutes straight😂😂
i totally salute your approach to martial arts and sword fighting and to support even further your theory of "what works" , I used to do a spin attack in Karate , giving my back to the opponent but in a very specific maneuver: lets say i have my left foot and arm in front in a defensive stance and my opponent attacks with his right fist (or leg) , I deflect the attack with my left arm and keep on turning giving my back to the back of my opponent and continue my spin that way to hit him with my right arm on the neck or head . The attack comes from behind him so he cannot counter it and my arm is projected by the spin giving it centrifugal speed. I used this technique to "deadly" effect so many times in fights even when it was frowned upon by my teachers.
That wrestling part was my favorite xD
glasses with a cord would be sweet
It's certainly on the list for next time ^_^
yeah get some sports wraps for your glasses. I've been a weapons practitioner for most of my life, and when I was younger I could go without my glasses and see well enough to fight, now, at 40, I need sports wraps for my glasses because I need them to see safely. 20 bucks for a professional pair, you'll thank yourself later because a good pair wont slip, soaked up sweat and sag, etc. On a curved one handed sword, keep it moving, don't give your opponent a chance to focus on where your blade is and where its going. You want smooth sweeping, flowing movements for good control. It may seem like it burns more energy, but its actually better for the style than a herky jerky start and stop motion style. Practice it. think of it almost as a flowing dance, although don't completely fall into it being a dance. You want them to think about your weapon AND timing as opposed to just the weapon itself. They will want to time attacks in your openings or perceived openings and you can use that to create a trap. Just an observation. Great strike on the neck btw. well executed.
deathofkindness definitely something I need to get.
deathofkindness You mean like these?
www.sportsglasses.ca/product.php/66/sports-glasses-prescription-rx/8d1edd4b7854aa59920cbc54dd1c94f6
Shadiversity if you want, you could try contact lenses. I used them originally for soccer, and now because I feel like I just look better without glasses. Just a suggestion. :D
I haven't watched the whole video yet, but regarding your telegraphed lunge, one thing you might consider regarding its historicity is how much traction modern soles offer compared to historical shoes. If you had soles that offered only a fourth of the traction you have, you might run the risk to have your front foot simply slip when touching the ground after your long step. So while it's 100% martially sound today with modern gear, it might not have been in the past because of this easily overlooked technical limitation. Lindybeige made some videos about the topic of "authentiboots":
ua-cam.com/video/-3qTniJsoEg/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/xlcd0B0cVqU/v-deo.html
I dont think its meant to be historically accurate that much. It woud not work werry good in a real fight annyway. Because before your opponent learns what it means, one or both of you are diein annyway.
@@WornyTheHun If they're dead from not catching it the first time, I doubt that would matter...
I think the biggest issue would be if you were facing an aggressive duelist. He could knock you down just by charging as you lounge.
bs. & how about no shoes at all...
I'm glad you had a good time and put yourself out there facing an unknown opponent. You're right in that some techniques won't work for some people. Leckuchner's manual even says that, and says "here you have diverse techniques and counters, for sport and earnest, and if one doesn't suit you, use another". I do HEMA and also Judo. I can say that there are a plethora of Judo techniques that don't work well for me, but they work great for others and vice-versa. It's important to try new techniques, and give them a go even when they feel awkward, because you never know what might be good with some dedicated practice. Likewise with HEMA. When it comes to HEMA tournament fighting, I only use about 5 or 6 techniques regularly, because they work well for me. I do continually try to add to my repertoire while keeping my core techniques sharp. A competitive Judoka sometimes only adds one technique to their arsenal per season, and most techniques will be used to set up their "go-to" finisher. Another reason to spend some time on techniques that aren't "your thing" is that it may give you insights into general principles that will help other techniques. Keep learning and keep fighting!
Daniel's fight style is so entertaining and kinda flamboyant, i really liked it.
So I probably haven't read enough comments, and I'm coming to your channel late, but I've taken up sport fencing and your "telegraph lung" is basically the HEMA equivalent of a fencing disengage. Totally legit. Also, I've read Meyers and my biggest take away was "here's some stuff, it's all about tricking your opponent." I was also amazed how much insight my father had on my fencing, despite having no experience. Fresh perspectives are always good, and at some level fighting is fighting.
Also your dussack fight was fun to watch. You were both smiling the entire time. Hahaha!
wow, this video is three years old now. Will there ever be a sequel? It'd be cool to see how far you've come since then.
About throwing out what doesn't work, note that lots of techniques only work after you've trained your body to be strong enough or flexible enough to make the technique work.
An easy example is the hanging saber guard. This particular guard, one of the best defensive guards you can take with a saber, is difficult for a beginner to hold for even 30 seconds, because they just don't have the muscles in their shoulders and arms to hold a 2 lb sword at arms length. It takes several weeks, sometimes a few months, of practice before the hanging guard position becomes doable for long periods, because that's how long it takes your body to build up the muscle.
This is a big reason why you cannot just ignore techniques out of hand. A lot of the time, when it doesn't work for you, it really means you aren't strong enough or flexible enough for it at this time, but with practice, you'll eventually become strong enough or flexible enough to make it work.
Well I have never said anyone should ignore techniques out of hand. You should always give things a try. When you say that a lot of the time, when it doesn't work for you, it really means you aren't strong enough or flexible enough. Well of course that can be a possibility but it's pretty easy to determine if something doesn't work dues to a physical limitation on behalf of the practitioner. Also in addition to this, a lot of the time when something doesn't work for you that can mean that it legitimately doesn't work for you. You just have to do your best and use your best judgement.
I have definitely found some techniques that don't work for me initially, after giving them a month or two of practice, but eventually worked for me later.
In these cases, I found that the solution was a different teacher.
The latest example of that has been the zorn-ort for me, a counter cut (parry & cut in 1 tempo) followed by a thrust. I never used to land the thrust - it just never worked for me for over 6 months of practice - not until a Slovakian instructor attended a local tournament, held a class on it, and changed my entire approach to the technique. Now I can land it on a regular basis (Thanks Anton!)
Basically, it wasn't that the technique didn't work for me, it was that the details didn't work for me, but another instructor who emphasizing different details made the technique fall into place.
So far, in HEMA at least, all of the "doesn't work for me now" type techniques have eventually worked out.
I think the reason some people in H.E.M.A. dislike your way of learning, is because of people determined to learn the same way as you commonly, (but not always), disregard logic and reason and flat out call them wrong. Basicly, one small group of people that ruin it for others, good duel btw.
Shad never said he was Bruce Lee, or that he was better than the old masters. You are putting words in his mouth because you are angry and frustrated. Trust me, Shad is not a perfect fighter, he himself knows this. So if you are to criticize him, please just calm down a little bit. He is not saying HEMA is bad, not at all.
I fully agree with the Spanish Inquisition. The next time ColdNapalm puts words in someones mouth, he better be expecting the Spanish Inquisition!
ColdNapalm42 As wise Vesimir once said, don't train by yourself because it only reinforces your mistakes. I agree with you, Shad needs to swallow his pride and know that learning a martial art means unlearning what you already know. Let go and learn what they teach you instead of "doing what works for me"
I think you showed that guy the Merit of self taught swordplay.
I actually like how you try and target his sides of his body under the arms. They are very valuable targets in unarmed martial arts because those muscles work a lot to do the many kicks and punches you do. Also, the strikes are close to some very valuable areas like the heart, lungs, diaphram, etc.
that's why they teach hand to hand combat in the military. no matter what's in your hand it's good to know you can drop or lose it and still be dangerous. also it can widen the range of moves possible with many weapons. truly the core of melee combat is hand to hand.
btw your leg move reminds me of a few mma fighters great easy way to get into an opponents head. good job on being well rounded:)
The visible embarrassment of that guy getting dropped by the "noobie" is brilliant lol, he clearly was not happy about it
I'll be honest I was a little dubious but you proved me completely wrong. I'm normally a little dubious of the skillset of people who are self taught but you clearly have a really good way of doing that. Gratz on having the courage to put your money where your mouth is and gratz on doing so well.
As a kid that grew up with sticks and tons of toy swords, this is heaven to watch! The only sad thing is we don't actually get to chop people's arms off :D
So after all Shad lived up to his own expectations and was able to hold himself against an HEMA practitioner... Cool! :D Great job, Shad! :D
But what was the score?
8 months! Against someone with zero months! Nice try...
+ColdNapalm42 You're missing the point. Shad had no HEMA experience before this, compared to the other person who had some. Even with this Shad lived up to his expectations in proving that you don't need direct contact with HEMA to have a decent chance at going against someone with that direct tutelage.
SendarSlayer Exactly. But in my experience with the Internet I think you are wasting time. You can't teach someone to reason in the mid of a discussion, or make them more intelligent...
ColdNapalm42
What do you think the intention of the original comment was about? It was saying that "Shad lived up to his own expectations and was able to hold himself against an HEMA practitioner"
He didn't think he would win. Neither does he expect to do well against someone who is experienced.
The point is that he could hold his own against someone who has some experience in HEMA where he has none.
"Stop with the strawman. NOBODY was saying that Shad would have NO chance against somebody trained in HEMA."
You're right, including me. That's not what the original comment was about.
"No matter how good you are and how bad the other guy is...there is always is a CHANCE you will lose"
Not the point.
"The whole point if to minimize that chance with training. That is why some of those weird techniques are there. They are the answer to something weird the other guy might do."
Again, not the point.
"The point wasn't that Shad can't win in a sword fight doing what he is doing...especially against a new one. The point is that he is not GOOD enough and KNOW enough to decide what does and does not work...even for himself."
The point, actually, is that someone with no experience in HEMA can stand a chance just by studying other martial arts and reading manuals.
"If he wants to prove that WRONG, then he needs to do what Bruce Lee did and take on the masters of the art and WIN..."
Okay yeah, if he was doing this as a profession. Which he isn't. It's a hobby for him and he wants to learn and have fun, if having fun means disregarding some texts because he can't do any of it then that's what he's gonna do.
"What are you in kindergarten? Does your mommy know you are being a moron on the internet? Pathetic."
In addition, my fuck you're hypocritical.
EDIT: Haven't proof read any of this shit post
That take down was brilliant I loved it, grappling in a fight is always a amazing option expeshslly if your still standing to witch you were
great job! No amount of excuses or butt sore comments can distract from the fact you not only held your own, but owned it! very well done!
Quick commen regarding HEMA spreading to the country regions. We now have HEMA in at least one country town in NSW (Armidale), though I am sure there are others clubs/ groups out there. There is another planned for Coffs Harbour (NSW Coast) and we are looking at expanding classes to the next rural centre (Tamworth). HEMA's growth in the country area's is and will continue to happen, even if only slowly at first. One thing I can say is that the support we have received here in Armidale from instructors etc in metro based clubs has been constant and unwavering. I think this is why HEMA will continue to grow rapidly in Australia (COMMUNITY!).
the biggest difference between historical fencing and sport is that your priority in sport is to land a hit. In historical it is to survive.
also thanks for putting these under the education category. now I have a youtube series that doesn't get blocked by the school wifi
Those were some nice bouts. I think it's fairly evident that your previous experience with unarmed martial arts has protected you from a lot of fundamental mistakes that are usually seen in self-taught practitioners, especially in terms of basic footwork (Skal has a story to tell about that).
There's a saying we used in the army "if it's stupid, but works then it's not stupid".
I have friends who also like to feint a step similar to the way you do and provoke a reaktion to exploit. And in our HEMA club I haven't heard anyone think it's strange. Just a different tactic. I haven't heard of it specifically in a manual either though but that doesn't mean I don't feel it's good HEMA. Feints are awesome!
think when you got that last hit in the instructor was hitting you in the same spot repeatedly to highlight the gap created when you leant forward guarding your front & what you could see while leaving your shoulder & back exposed
Yeah I had never fought with dussacks before and their lack of reach really threw me, but I still had a low of fun.
I know i'm reacting to a older video, But it was amazing to see the instructor use his free hand to remove your blade from the fight. This way he created a few really good openings and it seems like the use of his free hand gave him most of his advantage.
Never knew sword fighting in real life is much cooler than sword fighting in movies/tv shows/animes
There actually was something similar (as far as feinting and misdirection) done by the Poles between the 16th and 18th centuries, actually. When the Poles would enter into combat with an opponent they would make wild sweeping motions with their sabres and do a kind of crab-walk (a sort of side-stepping waddle) towards their opponent. In an attempt to throw their opponent completely off guard and, hopefully, end the fight in a single slash. It was incredibly effective and earned the Poles a reputation for "fighting dirty".
Let me tell you my story of this:
Several years ago I started going to a local archey group because of my ex girlfriend. And I was told that there were swords, so because I was the only one who could speak english, and soI started learning historical manuals. (Keep in min, at that time I was 14 and english is not my native tongue) And basically inspired the entire group to fight.
After about a year later we had an opportunity to participate in a recreation festival. And of course we were not the only group there, there was an entire HEMA group next to us. So I went there and asked a member to fight me (I hadn't fought anyone who was not taught by me... and it turned out, I picked basically the best guy. He had been learning for about five years there). And that was the first time I had wielded a real well balanced and historically accurate sword... and I actually won! I was really proud of myself and I was asked from where do I know what I know. I told them that I had been learning by myself, and this was my first match.
So my conclusion would be that, with enough affinity you can learn HEMA even alone in your room :D
Edit: We didn't even use protection
Edit 2: match outcome was 10-0 for me
Holy Shad...that was cool I would love to see more fights of you...looking forward to shad vs skallagrim xD
One thing I noticed in your spar is that your trousers are causing you some issues, they appear to be too long.
May I suggest wrapping your lower leg to keep all the excess from flopping about and hindering you, as it appears that you keep flicking it after you take a step and such.
I have one criticism for the way you fight, Shad. You have a typican beginner's "stick the sword in front of myself" style, which means that you can't deliver powerful cuts. You're not the only one guilty of that, even high level fencers do that on tournaments, because it's easier to gain points this way by sniping your opponent in the hands and thrust with the point. When you have in-club tournaments the fighters use a lot of different strikes, straight backed, go into different guards etc., but the moment they fight in an international tournament it's all here: they go low, stick the sword in front of them, snipe the hands, lean in to increase their reach as much as possible even if it sacrifices footing etc. All to get those points.
Now that I have some more fighting experience, I took another look at this fight, and I would say the issue here is that Shad is fighting suicidally. That is, he is basically 100% attack and 0% defense. That's why so many of these end in doubles, Shad goes for attacks even when the other guy has clearly started attacking him back. I've seen plenty of beginners do this, a common tactic I've seen is a cut to the belly that leaves the head and shoulders 100% exposed to whatever the opponent wants to do (like at 6:30, 6:42 , and 7:07 ). The mindset I think beginners should have is not "let me see how many times I can hit the opponent" but rather "let me see how many times I can prevent the opponent from hitting me". Trying to score points instead of trying to stay alive is the antithesis of a martial art.
Excellent video, Shad!
Since no HEMA club is anywhere near where I live, I have been thinking of trying to learn swordcraft from books, videos, self-practicing, etc.
I have martial arts background, etc., so you saying that you haven't learned HEMA (ok, you've studied kendo, right?) is just what I've been wanting to hear (along with seeing this video. :P).
Keep going, Shad!
One thing that springs to my mind is that your knees might take a lot of strain and that you want to be careful with that, especially if you are wearing a fair amount of equipment.
That blunt sound when you hit someone is just so amusing!
Hi, Shad
i have to admit that i was a bit concered with your "Problems with HEMA", but as i see it was no reason to be worried.
You proved your point sir, (as far is im concered :D )
Keep up your amazing work!
This is actually really great to hear, thank you so much for giving what I said another consideration.
4 Years too late but as a martial arts practitioner since 20 years I have to say, that this throw was really good!
This has inspired a discussion in my head:
So MMA is mixed martial arts, and is a school based on Self-Defense, taking practical moves from all martial arts and discarding the chaff. Which is what you're talking about.
Has anyone ever done a swordfighting (or general weapon fighting) equivalent? Taking aspects from HEMA, Kenjutsu, Angampora, ect...
The whole "reject what doesn't work for you" is a very dangerous concept and can hinder you in the long term. The only way I feel it is valid is if you are physically unable to perform the techniques, say due to some sort of injury or disability, etc. Otherwise the things that "don't work" are just things that aren't easy for you, and those are going to eventually become barriers to improving as a fighter. The best fighters use what works best for them in a particular situation out of every technique, not just the ones that came easily/naturally. For example, the best fighters in hema use proper stances. Look at Lee Smith and Blood and Iron in particular, they train stances more than most and sweep pretty much every tournament they participate in. There is only so far that you can advance as a fighter with improper body/sword mechanics due to a poor stance. Now if you are somehow unable to perform a proper stance (it being hard is not being unable), then you will have to understand that you will not be the best fighter out there. This is something most if not all martial artists come to terms with at some point or another and it is a healthy thing. The ideal martial artist pushes them self and tries to be the best they can be, while understanding their circumstances.
HappyCupsInc if everyone followed what you say here we would only have one martial arts style, because no one would do anything new. ive learned many disciplined skills from rifle marksmanship to carpentry to yes swordfighting and anyone with anything in their brain besides dogma and sawdust knows to fit themselves to the technique and the technique to themselves
I use the leg feint during Karate. Feints via exaggerated movements is good because it distracts the opponent from what you actually want to do. Same thing in soccer. There is no way that this move is not documented considering how ubiquitous it is.
I know this video is old, but I just watched it. As a judo guy, I LOVED the leg trip when you guys locked up. As soon as you got close, I said "Leg trip leg trip leg trip!", and boom, leg trip. Lol.
Combining a foot stomp with a crooked strike is unorthodox but obviously effective. I'd be wary of using it while fighting a very experienced swordsman as he/she will respond with a cut to your hands. Stepping in and binding would be something to be wary of as well
Wise old Vesimir once said, don't train by yourself as it only reinforces your mistakes. Only once mastering and learning what HEMA has to teach you, should you then create your own moves and "do what works for you". By never learning the fundamentals and always doing whatever 'works' is guaranteed to leave you with very flawed technique with many gaps that you may not have noticed. This is why centuries of HEMA practioners and texts have worked tirelessly to guide you in avoiding these mistakes and you should really swallow your pride and just listen :)
For not always practicing, you did surprisingly very well in that combat.
Thanks mate. I was surprised how well previously visualising my moves and techniques helped when actually using them.
It's nice to see the different styles meet.
That first little ramble was what goes on in my head any time I try and touch a new hobby some people need to chill lol
I've seen the leg stomp feint used in linear systems, but I can't tell you where it's coming from. Angelo has some footwork feints. Longsword is a lateral footwork system, which became lunge based only when Hutton tried to reconstruct it, as far as I know. The reason is probably because passing steps greatly increase cutting power by rotating the hips, which would be relevant in a real fight. However, linear systems are faster and thus work better in friendly sparring. Would they have been sufficient in real combat? We'll never know.
I like your wild front foot stamp, worked well, gonna steal that 👍
that throw was dope. u kicked his ass.
FLBoyCanScrap lol he definitely did better than most of his detractors first thought but to say he kicked his is to lie.