The freeze response and narcissistic relationships
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- Опубліковано 26 вер 2024
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DISCLAIMER: THIS INFORMATION IS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR CLINICAL CARE. PLEASE CONSULT A HEALTH CARE PROVIDER FOR GUIDANCE SPECIFIC TO YOUR CASE. THIS VIDEO DISCUSSES NARCISSISM IN GENERAL.
THE VIDEO DOES NOT REFER TO ANY SPECIFIC PERSON, AND SHOULD NOT BE USED TO REFER TO ANY SPECIFIC PERSON, AS HAVING NARCISSISM. PERMISSION IS NOT GRANTED TO LINK TO OR REPOST THIS VIDEO, ESPECIALLY TO SUPPORT AN ALLEGATION THAT THE MAKERS OF THIS VIDEO BELIEVE, OR SUPPORT A CLAIM, THAT A SPECIFIC PERSON IS A NARCISSIST. THAT WOULD BE AN UNAUTHORIZED MISUSE OF THE VIDEO AND THE INFORMATION FEATURED IN IT.
The quietest sound in the world is the sound of letting go.
I used to hate my freeze response until I realized it was my body taking care of me in a no win situation.
Silence can be powerful tool. For me, it was choosing silence over being stuck in tongue tied silence. That took a lot of work to learn to detach and respond rather then react.
Amazing comment. I do it quite often aka whenever I see the narc in my life, despite his attempts of convincing me of how much of a dull, ordinary, sparkless, mild person I had become. But, as you said, by choosing silence, he can attack me as much as he wants. I am building up thrive, confidence and strenght. My genuine self is reserved for the ones who actually deserve it. No win with a Narcissist. Sad, but as long as they have to be around, you gotta play the surviving game.
Diana - So beautiful! "The quietest sound in the world is the sound of letting go."
I must remember this next time it strikes.
These are very powerful words. I've never heard it described this way. Amazing...thank you
This has been the year for me to learn and practice the power of silence. So profound, so powerful. Thank you for reminding us.
Before I knew the term "freeze", I thought what I was experiencing was staring in disbelief. The narcissist's actions were SO beyond anything I could have ever expected! I wanted to believe it was not happening. I wanted to believe I did not hear what actually occurred. I doubted myself...always. The end of this month marks 2 years of "no contact". No contact is, I suppose, the ultimate freeze response...freezing that narc the heck out of my life.
Man ive done the same a LOT!
You just put into words how I have felt. Thank you for that. It was confusing for me because I would freeze and my narc would tell me I had nothing to say for myself when really I must’ve been in a state of shock!
Yep, it's full blown psycho
Ohhhh YES. I remember VERY well now, when he did, or said, or wrote, or texted me things.. First I "froze", not just because I didn't know what to say or do, but ALSO BECAUSE I was in such DISBELIEF about the things he did and said.
Even through the brain "fog" I was under, somewhere inside me, I knew, I just KNEW something was SERIOUSLY wrong with him and MANY things about him...
ALL of this was BEFORE I was even aware of narcissim and that he is a COVERT & MALIGNANT narcist. The physical abuse started 3 months after getting married.
@@mariasartzis-pellicier1723 you said it well!!
I cannot possibly count how many times I have lived this. Thank you for helping me understand. You validate my experience over and over again.
Getting validation means so much to me. I wasn't validated by my narcissistic family.
God bless you. Sorry.
@@maeveoconnell5643 my family helped me escape too. Hugs
Me too!
@@maeveoconnell5643 You may be struggling but you are free from it. Yes it goes around and around in our heads but you won the war you broke free and that means you have incredible strength within. More power to you.
Narcissists leave you feeling confused and doubting yourself. So rather than fighting or running away, you may find yourself in the freeze response. Because you don’t know how to respond to them.
The emltionalal, circumstantial and retrieval for an everlasting conjunction to all our reactions and participation.
Shake it off.
We remain a constant, an ego yes, but not a false self who Detatched and runs away when circumstances weakly interfere with our charisma in the newfound experience.
Who experiments with our emotions is not sincere. Who offers us exclusive regard to the best of our considerations might find us worthy. Worthy of any F.
Your name should be "Cliff Notes" LoL🙃
I would always freeze around the workplace flying monkeys, they do the dirty work for the covert narcissist.
@Transplanted1 It definately beats blowing your brains out.
The narc or narc relationship is mock reality.
Once you know it's almost impossible to take its place.
Either impossible or almost.
Thank God for awareness. 🙏
Could we endure another relationship like that..? None the wiser !
@Transplanted1 Agree. Mine once literally cornered me during a fight and told me that it infuriated him when I left (flight), fought, or if I didn't respond to him (freeze). What other option was there, other than fawn? Not everyone can escape, or can't escape now, so I sympathize, but I hope they can eventually.
The ONLY thing I "regret" was ignoring narc red flags in past relationships, and realizing years later I shouldn't have invested as much time and tried to bond intensely with the same people who harshly discarded me 😅
ikr 🤦🏽♀️
BUT i see the silver lining in how much stronger & wiser of a person i have become from living through those relationships-
that’s not to say we haven’t suffered tremendously from those toxic, 1 sided relationships but at least we’re still going - just harder, better, faster, stronger!!!😉😂
hang in there & keep ur head up🤗
Amen! 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Yeah to, I'd call that missing out, but on what?
You're attached to your own predispositions of truth.
That puts most people on this planet off on a keel. 🙏 F works bro 👍
It's really difficult to tell, when we're in it. Most of the time we have so much good in us and the fact that we bond truly gives us a complete disadvantage to them because we are merely commodity to them that can be replaced anytime. They love us as they love a quesadilla, its like " oh well to them " when they discard us.
Friendships as well. They discard and disrespected me towards the very end because they can’t take real honesty. They are absolutely fake and phony people.
There are times that a freeze response is life saving , some Narc's are violent !! Sometimes it's better when they leave !!
I totally agree
I freeze because I was raised by a violent narc and the violence got worse if I even cried out loud. As an adult I put up with a lot because I'm terrified to even stick up for myself with non-violent people.
It's ALWAYS better when they leave. Permanently.
You are so right. The "freeze" response would have been life saving to me. As time went on, after leaving NarcEX, BEFORE SERIOUS "fog brain" set in, I started remembering that when I responded or spoke up for myself, that is when he went into EXTREME narc RAGE and he went to physically attack me. After several physical attacks, I started "freezing" AKA I did NOT talk, respond or say anything at all. NarcEX still went into narc rage. He WANTED to physically attack me, but NarcEX did not/or stopped himself.
Absolutely. My nex (a covert and high-range narcissist) became after a couple of years (we where a couple for about 12 years) to try to be violent o me especially when he was awfully drunk and we have some argue. I ducked a lot of times but sometimes he get me and I got a hard push from him so I maybe get down on the floor or in to a wall. But most of those times I screamed so loud and angry to him that he back off from me.
He did not expect me to confront him to scream angry and go against threatening HIM. He lost his focus then I discovered and at the same time as I did that I was so angry at him of what he had did to me that he backed of and get me silent treatment. Saying that I was crazy, overreacting etc and he even say that he did not do anything to me: He ment that I was a layer and that I had felt on the carpet (even if there was no carpet ...) or something similar. I discovered that he was a little bit scared of me, cause he did not expected that I would get him resistance at all, but I did.
So after a few attempt from him - it stopped for a couple of years. But then at our last few month together: He started with trying to hit me. At that moment I realize that he some day could physically abuse me and maybe I could miss to duck ... He was much bigger than me in his body and strong in his arms - I'm not all. I actually could die of it.
At that moment I began to plan to escape from him and his abuse - mental and physical abuse. I've had enough! It took me about 3 month in secret plans and then I left one day when he was at his work. Took every singel thing which was mine: furniture and private stuff - nothing more. It took me 3 hours and two of my friends to get me off the flat and move away to a caravan into a camping far away from him. Did not even left a note or something - just locked the door and dumped the key into the mailbox who was at the door!
That's a couple of years ago.
That I wanna tell You all: Beware that IF You gonna left the narc cause it could be very dangerous so make Your plan discrete in secret and get some good friends to help You away.
And DO NOT warning och threatening the narc before that You are gonna do that, leave them I ment. It could be the last word You ever say to anybody. Just leave them - in quiet.
It won't get better if they be violent to You - It gonna be worse otherwise.
And go NO CONTACT - FOREVER!
you brought tears to my eyes....so accurate...I suffered with this "freeze" my whole life. People called me "stuck up"...in school....the cruel conditioning from my mother was what they were seeing. I was scared to death of saying the wrong thing or looking the wrong way. I hated school/high school...I was subjected to my mothers cruelty and then was bullied and treated badly by some of my fellow classmates. It sometimes takes a lifetime to realize that bullies just are and have nothing to do with truth about me.
Sending you a hug
Thank you Phoenix, you said it so well! Same here with people thinking the worse of my freeze response (even me). Polyvagal therapy helps.
I had the same experience. My father was a toxic covert narcissist who would overwhelm me. I could never respond to his abusive behavior. If I "spoke back" I woud be severely beaten. Later in life, I began freezing when confronted with hostile people.
Same here. 😘
@@toffeeapple7783 It's the hardest when the bullies are in your own family: "We have known you all your life, we know you're a little sh**, don't believe you can fool us!"
I'm mostly too stunned at what just happened and on what planet he lives on.... So much of what he says blows me away and leaves me wondering, what the hell is he even talking about. 😳😳
Dr Ramani.......I don't understand what all these numbers mean. There r 7 replies from you.....it says they're from you....
I am subscribed and have comment before but I've never seen the numbers. Can u please explain???
As a child, I utilized the freeze and fond responses. Once I moved away to college and identified who I was outside of the abuse, I used the flight response more into my twenties. Once I turned 30 five years ago, as I began to do deep healing on myself, I began to stand up for myself more, and I transitioned into the fight response. Today, I can spot a narc miles away, and because I'm so authentic in who I am and don't react to them, it confuses them that I am unbothered by their antics that they drop off like flies. It took a long time, but emotionally, I feel like I'm 65 instead of 35 because of how much I endure and the wisdom I took from each experience and allowed it to cultivate me.
"Fawn" response not fond.
Im so past this point of the freeze in mid "argument" with a narcissist. I learned to step out of my ego and anger and allow them to tie themselves into a knot of life. Silence is maturity. Silence is golden at most times. Smile and nod to the negative, aggressive attitude that is coming at you.
💯🎯
This
Yes I am doing that to rude aggressive clients... just smile big and just silent looking at them... until they angry walk away... and I then wish them a NICE day and bye bye
Very good. I agree let them swing their swords because participating will drag you into an endless futile argument.
Silence sometimes makes my narc dad even angrier, because he’s not getting the reaction he wants from me. It could lead to worse insults, punishments, and even slight physical abuse if I wasn’t careful; especially if you seem smug even in the slightest for staying silent while they rage at you (or you are ‘perceived’ as being that way by them). That’s my experiences anyway…
Still, freeze and flight responses are still WAY better than a fight response. Fight responses are just giving them what they want, and it’s really hard to resist sometimes. It’s always caused the WORST abusive reactions from him when I couldn’t shut up. Unfortunately I got the trait from my dad of having a difficult time in letting something go, and to just shut up and walk away. We both have a temper, which has always worried me because I DON’T want to be like him. I hate how much I take after him. 😞
Omg, this is so me. And the comebacks that I think of after the fact are so good.
I freeze, but my mind doesn’t go blank - it’s trying out multiple potential responses and ascertaining likely negative reactions. This leaves me unable to choose an answer quickly enough and I end up being accused of deliberately playing dumb, but any response will trigger a Narc rage, in my experience. Damned if you speak, damned if you don’t.
Think about the stress, trying to form a response when u could be gaslight, shutdown.
I froze many times bc I thought I am not „allowed“ to stand up for myself. I was quite scared too. But interestingly not when it came to other people. As a leader I strongly stood up for my people and didn’t fear fighting for their rights.
Only when it came to me I froze.
I know now this results from the way I grew up. My mother wouldn’t allow any point of view than hers. I am healing and this channel helps so so much !
I relate. Freeze with my family (rageful mother)... very strong when it comes to the rights of others... which is also expected of me by the same mother...who was proud when I stood against bullying at work...no one is allowed to bully me cept her arrgh :)
Wow, i totally could have written this comment! All of it. I developed a stutter as a child even from being shut down by my mother. My school sent me to a speech therapist who identified, and told me, that it was because of my mother. I was 8. Thinking about it now it makes so much sense. The therapist 'cured' my stutter in about 2-3 sessions, just by allowing me to speak and feel calm and safe doing so. Something i was never able to experience at home. I kinda wish i could have kept seeing her for the next few decades rather than having to deal with it all now watching youtube videos..!
Your body showed the insult and abuse. You must have had great inner strength as a child already that you were able to heal your stutter in only a few sessions.
I know the feeling so well when it finally makes sense. I went grey rock with my mom to protect myself. Seeing and talking to her is only about herself and her neighbors and my brother and so on. Never about me and she doesn’t know and see me anyway. I am physically present and that is enough for her and suits her perfectly well. It is all about her anyway. I do not miss her understanding, not any more. Radical acceptance is what I finally managed with her.
Then it gets tricky because she will change her point of view, so are often wrong anyway.
When I was young, older people whose thinking I respected would often say, "You must be careful what you say, because you can't take back your words." Or, "Be nice and don't rock the boat." As I got older, I realized no one else was being that careful, and I seemed to get a lot of rude treatment from bullying types who thought I'd just overlook any which way they were treating me, and I'd just freeze, as you say in this video. This was me, until I realized it was important to acknowledge aggressive comments from others. I didn't want to go through my life being a psychological dumping ground. Often times, the comments were not exactly personal, but I became an easy outlet for their stress. What I started to do to buy a little time and space from their rudeness, was to ask a question. Such as, "What's this all about?" Or, "Why do you want friendship with someone like me who annoys you so much?" That often would diffuse the situation long enough for them to back up and think of how they sounded, and for me to find out some deeper things that were going on under the surface, and if I was lucky and it was a relationship that mattered to me, I'd find out things that helped us to get to a better mutual understanding. Sometimes they just needed an outlet for stress, but I don't want to continue my life being a psychological dumping ground. So I told them that.
I always felt shock, like someone had just punched me in the stomach and knocked the wind out of me. I always knew it would happen again, and thought I would say something the next time. But, each time was the same. I was always in shock that someone could treat someone else in such a way.
Freeze and fawn are so painful for survivors. I find myself getting angry because I could not fight back or run away. Working on boundaries and assertiveness has helped a great deal.
Makes so much sense! Coming from a child who can not flight or fight, we learn to freeze, which feels helpless 🥲 much to learn about myself
I've taught myself to utilize my freez response repeating in my head: "don't say anything anyway you can't win" so I don't feel stupid, I just know it's better not to say anything.
💜
It’s funny, because I’m a university professor in the sciences, and I recognize how I’ve used the freeze response when dealing with narcissistic colleagues. I’ve always felt like I wasn’t smart enough compared to them and would not engage in conversations I was very capable of. Fascinating stuff.
I'm in the arts and one extremely narcissistic bully was my supervisor... he always tried to outsmart everyone else, and if he couldn't he'd get angry like a spoiled kid.
A dangerous environment for sure
@@pisztufilmurgh yes. I'm in Humanities and got into lecturing because I started as a research assistant to a sophisticated narcissistic professor. I survived him somehow and he's since retired thank goodness.
Academic environments can be so hierarchical. I always think that it's an environment where there are often a lot of smart but emotionally immature people..
I've experienced this countless times. The worst part was that my silence would lead him to believe that I thought he was right about whatever he was saying and would encourage him to keep going and further convince himself of his false narrative.
Yes! Silence makes you appear to be silenced by their words because they are making a “good” point and responding gives them fuel. It’s very lose/lose. Being silent is not taking the bait but their altered view of reality tells them that you are guilty.
The more I freeze, the more he thinks he is right.
@@marshallmays8171 in reality it just affects how much he thinks he's convincing you.
Nothing you do will affect how much he thinks he's right.
@@steggopotamus you’re right.
Ahhhhh genuine
It makes me angry, at them and at myself, for not being able to speak and defend myself. Resentment, frustration. I isolate myself now to avoid dealing with people. But I’m getting better at speaking up when I’m attacked. I have more time to think now and podcasts like yours help.
Judy. Im so sorry...your comment..it could have written by me. It makes me angry and sad at the same time. I too isolate myself, been doing for a long time.. too afraid, dont trust, to go out to meet people. Take care.
I dealt with many narcissists in school. I used the grey rock method so much and it really angered them lol. I was even accused of being ‘ weak ‘ as a bait tactic. I proceeded to tell them ‘ not everyone is worth fighting with ‘ then walked away.
When i began using grey rock, my ex told me not to talk to him that way and actually complained that I was being assertive to what only works for me and demanded I explain my decisions to him. Nope. Not going to.
This happened to me too in friendships. Manipulating our defensive mechanisms are a narcissist's major motive. Making our shield more strong amd enjoying our company to the fullest is the best resort
I love that saying " not everyone is worth fighting with " thank You ! I'm going to use it.
@@sheilayagodzinski5747 your welcome! I actually had to say that to my teacher because she was the biggest instigator.
"Don't gimme that dear in the headlights look"
" Oh I suppose you will give ME the silent treatment the rest of the day"
"You are not normal, most people talk and respond"
Last night I finally DIDN'T freeze, and as meaningless as it may be, I spoke my truths. I was still left feeling disgusted by their selfishness. But the dragon knows they are losing their power over me!
I used to cowar from my oldest daughter's father and family. It was humiliation at it fullest. Years later it just doesn't matter and I'm so glad to be rid of them. All a bunch of bullies
I’ve come to value this response. There are times when the silence is the best way. And all the things that come to my mind afterwards, no matter how reasonable , are simply comments that would have created more conflict with that person. Truth is, there are people that are best if they are completely removed from my life because boundaries, logic, and my feelings mean nothing and they aren’t even safe to respond to.
Exactly.
Amen. A phrase that really clued me in was that you cannot negotiate if you canot say no. I realized that I was in a game that couldn’t be won, and just stopped playing. I am in that hell now, hearing from family members on Facebook to see why I am not responding to the narcs calls, that I am so ungrateful and just want money. lol, no amount of money could be enough to include that toxicity into my life.
My mother’s hour long rages made me feel like I was leaving my body. I blocked out so much of these episodes.
I think my freeze response started when I was an infant. My father was a batterer and was highly physically abusive, especially the first year of my life. It makes sense that I would have leaned on "freezing". I was too small to fight, flight or fawn. I was doing the only thing I could do at that age.
Same. Do you actually lose consciousness when you "freeze"? I've never met anyone else who has panic attacks that result in losing consciousness when this sympathetic nervous response kicks in. The first one I remember having was at 5 years old, so it had to be related to the abuse, I think.
@@djer05010401 OH, that's intense. I don't lose consciousness, but I do lose my voice. I literally can't speak. So, I named that inner child part of me, Ursula, from The Little Mermaid. When I'm upset and reverting to those defenses, I try to stop and get quiet with myself and ask Ursula "what's wrong, honey?" It helps me to think of it as a little child trying to help me but in little child ways, you know.
@@JoJo-ju7xw that's a really lovely way to approach it, thanks for sharing that!
Same for me. I remember being around 5 and freezing every time my dad came home from work. He would yell at my siblings and I, demanding we say hello! We stood at attention side by side as he did this. I remember feeling so scared and I tried so hard to speak, but nothing would come out.
He was frequently say something mean or insensitive. I would sit there frozen. He would then pester me to share what was happening. I would share my feelings and then he would get mad at me and an argument would begin. Exhausting.
Liz P......they say they care about u but can never show u....ever.
I deal with the same thing......it really is exausting.
I’ve learned that trying to “share” your feelings with a narcissist is just giving them ammunition to use against you. They cannot respect your feelings. The more emotional you are, the more vulnerable you are to their power plays.
@@reddawn8230
Your 100% right about that. Even crying doesn't move them. 😢
@@marionohara5606 I was accused of crying on purpose to be manipulative.
@@reddawn8230 I'm not surprised to hear that. 😢 I was never accused of that but my tears had no affect on him. Nothing moves him and he just goes about his life like I'm invisible. After he retired it got so much worse....
Went through college experiencing this and eventually hating myself for it after 2 years of being tortured. Now that it's over only now I realised what was happening so now it won't happen again!
I was a freezer. Eventually my Ex weaponized the Gottman research as part of her Gaslighting and accused of stonewalling. In the moment I could never articulate why I couldn’t respond. This, like so many of Dr Ramani’s videos is so enlightening and helps me to see that, while the apocalypse was definitely upon me and my ex, there was nothing I could have done differently to make for a better outcome. It wasn’t all my fault like I was often made to believe.
My Ex also weaponized that technique from the audio we purchased. It was Shocking how well he used it against me.
Been there,numerous times! I'm relieved to know that my experience isn't unique and that there isn't something wrong with me.
And God have I felt more and more with each passing day that I'm slow witted and socially inept! Thankyou for shedding light on the freeze response and that it's normal when one feels unsafe. This will help me practice some self compassion and not judge myself so harshly.
"Im relieved to know that my experience isnt unique and there isnt something wrong with me"
Exactly this. Doctor Ramani is a life savior.
Freezing has been the standard response to my sister for years and I would then question my own experiences, decisions & choices based on what she said to me. All the good responses would come to me days later when I'd replayed the conversations over & over again. Thank you Dr Ramani your videos are so enlightening.
I had the "freeze" response and now i am learning to overcome it and speak my truth. When i was in the freeze mode i was in so much fear that i couldn't speak at all- words couldn't come out when someone was overpassing my boundaries or insulting me or gaslighting me. Deep down i was thinking that I can't defend myself even if i was the right one - my self esteem was beaten down. ( maybe that response was made because i had a very rageful mom ). But now i left a toxic relationship with a friend that i had over a decade and now i am trying to not let anyone overpass my boundaries and manage to handle every toxic narc energy around me by leaving or not engaging. Thank dr Ramani ! you were a huge help by giving all this info for us!
I would freeze with my Mother in the face of knowing we were going to get into another ridiculous argument. Now I am very calculated with her & have been able to avoid such arguments for quite some time now. Thank you for your help, Dr. Ramani😀
This is so me. I recently had a narcissist girlfriend ( I ended the friendship afterwards) just screaming at me for something so pitiful and unreasonable, I couldn’t understand why she was so upset. I got so scared because of how much she yelled and how close she was to me , I seriously thought she would physically attack me. I kept apologizing for whatever she thought I did wrong just to calm her down. I know if I spoke up and defended myself, she would punch me. I couldn’t risk that. I was scared, embarrassed and uncomfortable I just wanted to leave. She went from acting crazy to hugging me and saying I love you so fast, it creeped me out. I always freeze, I never fight back. I have limits I would never go to but I know narcissistic people don’t so I don’t want to trigger more anger out of them. I just ended the friendship afterwards and blocked her.
I always froze in front of my narcissist because I didn’t know the consequences of my opinion, I was raised by a narcissist so I was punished a lot. It takes a courage, reparenting and confidence to face a narcissist when you’re living with them. I pray those still vulnerable can safely get out💜
This is a wonderful series, Dr. Ramani. Freeze and fawn are responses I still struggle with. Would you consider designing a workshop around the nervous system as a follow-on to your excellent “core” workshop?
In the meantime, I’ve taken note of your tips on how to manage a freeze response:
1. Reflect on your history with narcissistic people early in life and realize you are now an adult who can protect the vulnerable child inside.
2. Practice saying what you have to say beforehand.
3. Reflect on what you think will happen if you say what you have to say.
4. Take notes when people are speaking so that you can plan what to say when the freeze response begins to lift.
Thank you, this is so helpful!🙏❤️
Love the less is more with a narcissist. So true. The freeze response helped me as a kid. Too scared of the rage and getting slapped in the face. You're videos help me understand so much that I didn't understand as a child and young adult.
Without knowing how or being advised I should do this. This certainly validates what I have been practicing already since I was little. I thought I was crazy to be practicing what I have to say, either to defend myself or to try not to get sucked into the gas lighting and doubting myself. I've since learned how to distinguish healthy vs. toxic. Healthy are the ones whom I can share my thoughts without having to second guess myself or play chess with them in my mind. Toxic are the one's whom I have to play ugly dirty games with that leave me mentally drained and walk on egg shells. If I have to start talking to myself again just to get through a conversation with a toxic person I've learned to run the for the hill's.
These are good criteria to consider. Thanks for sharing!
I remember as a young kid never being able to get my words out, they would just get stuck in my mouth and my brain would go completely blank, and I remember feeling so dumb and overwhelmed when my birth mother would go off on me. She would just bowl me over.
I feel like I developed the fight response because my initial instinct was the freeze response, and I needed to fight to get out of it --- I literally remember sitting myself down when I was eight and consciously training myself day after day to get my words out. I would write them all down and practice my comebacks like they were homework, until I was able to have a ready, trained response to her usual crap, and from there I got better and better at fighting --- but she got better and better at manipulating me so I would get dysregulated. Then I would go through periods of not fighting because I was afraid I was becoming a bad person and my parents would both shame me for it. I've always oscillated between fight and freeze.
But even after all that, once I did therapy and was trying to reign my fight response back in, she took that opportunity to bowl me over again, and there is nothing worse than the feeling you get when your brain wakes up an hour or two later and you realize she has used your freeze response to manipulate the crap out of you and make you agree to a bunch of things you didn't even want to do.
I didn't want to fight anymore, but I didn't want to freeze either, so I went no contact.
I don’t like myself get into fighting respond. I feel regret everything afterward, it’s so not me, so not worth it. I’d rather chose to get ride of them immediately, careless or disengage .
EXACTLY!! This is exactly how I would react to bullying in school, and is probably one of the reasons I was bullied so much; I couldn't fight back. And I remember thinking of nasty things to say back after it was too late, feeling helpless and mad at myself, just feeling like a big victim. Someone called me "a good person" because I didn't fight back, and that enraged me because 1. A person can fight back and still be a good person, and 2. I felt misunderstood because I did indeed want to fight back, freezing was not my choice. Also, I could not escape the school. So many things in this video hit the nail on the head for me. Thank you for validating me and explaining how it is a physio response, something beyond my control, and how it can help me avoid engaging. It helps me to make peace with it and accept myself for who I am.
Your wisdom and guidance is my morning coffee. Thank you so much!
My adopted mother is a big narcissist didn’t know that until 13 years after getting away from her!!!
Freeze and fawn likely saved my life in June of this year when a malignant narcissist came into my life. I hate it, it sucks, it often mean you are in a life or death situation - even if you don’t logically know the why, how, or when of it all - and recognizing you are having that response in any way, and at any time, is crucial for knowing who to stay away from. I wish I understood that prior to June of this year.
I'm crying on the inside b/c these videos are helping me look more clearly at myself and what i now look like after so many years Living with someone who will not take responsibility for their words or behaviour, can be cruel with no remorse, lying... zero empathy, so frequently invalidating and seeking approval... I was trapped into thinking he CAN/will be able to see these issues and that WE need to keep working... The anger in me that I've allowed to manifest (making me resent myself) has been completely unproductive... I hate the cycle. But, it is so very helpful to be able to put a name on all these previously seeming random and destructive bahaviours. Now I have a defined framework within which to work - on me. And, I can let him... be him. I am getting it. I have a LOT of work to do on the only one i can change-me. I can't thank you enough Dr Ramani. Please keep up this wonderful work. You are helping so many of us. Stay strong and Blessings on you always.
I so relate to this! The freeze response has been living in me since childhood as my mum would rage and it was the only thing I could do. To this day dealing with my narcissistic mother I tend to freeze at times and then I'm full of self hate and anger towards myself. Working through this now and thanks for validating this response!
I used to get frozen at his rash,disheartening responses.uncountable! Invalidation, insults and ego.
This phenomenon is the single most difficult part of narcissistic abuse. I’ve been so angry with myself for freezing but in the moment it was automatic. Thank you Dr Ramani,. ❤️
This is definitely my MO, since childhood. Thank you for helping me understand it! Today marks one year since I left my abusive ex, and your videos have been keeping me going for about a year and a half now. I still learn something new with each one. THANK YOU, Dr. Ramani ❤
‘They push away from the table get in the car and leave’ .. empath here sick of their selfish crap..”don’t let the door door hit ya where the good Lord split ya!! Good riddance!!
That’s it. But if you do use your voice it creates fodder for the narc to argue.
They won’t listen to you. You can never have a normal conversation. You can’t reason with them. I experienced “the freeze” for years. I remained silent. My chest was tight. I felt exhausted all the time. It was just like being at work. My home was not a haven. Diminished? Oh yes. Less IS more. I check out and he talks and talks. It doesn’t matter if its me or the guy next door. He hates silence. He cannot relax.
I had dinner with my best friend and her husband. The conversation felt so odd to me because it was a normal pleasant adult conversation. No yelling. No force. No anger. No accusations. No being talked down to. No you are just a stupid C. No war zone. No mutual respect. No “win” at ANY cost over the most trivial subject. I’m right. YOU are wrong and stupid. I never ever thought I would fall into a relationship like this. But he is good - very stealthy - love bombing, future faking - until he got me locked down in marriage and I purchased the home.
It was so fun to just chat over dinner with friends.
Wow Katie the EXACT same thing happened to me. I clammed up and my chest was tight and I am heavy, slow, depressed and super edgy. I refuse to live that way. His cruelty literally killed any feelings I might have had for him. I feel like that is a gift from my compassionate Lord Jesus to spare me the misplaced grief I had experienced in previous Narcissistic relationships. We were engaged. He was really pushing me to get married and the mask slipped just in time...
So accurate.
Oh yes, I thought that I'm really stupid, when I cannot find words to respond. I understand this better now when I'm out of 30 years toxic relationship. Freeze still kicks in with arrogant people. It makes me embarrassed.
Exactly as you describe it Dr. Ramani, I got very emotional as you described it💔💔💔 It is so painful to experience. I freeze first, and then flight when is safe to do so. The emotional pain is so big that I can't talk, my eyes get watery and want to cry...the narcissist gets angrier with the freeze response and makes it worse, it is painful, they don't understand, they can't empathize, they call you too sensitive and overreacting. I am still working on my freeze response learned in childhood. It is true, the freeze response happens so quickly. This is certainly something that holds me back as you explain, but protects me for sure because I don't engage. Thank you so much for this video and for sharing your experience with us💖 This is incredibly helpful, so validating, thank you for your support, guidance, and valuable advice💕💕💕
This is such a longterm sensation for me. I remember just standing up from the dinner table after my parent pounded on me for no reason and silently staring them in the face and walking out of the room. I have felt over the years as though I may have some kind of communication disability and listening to this podcast I am thinking it could be related to the years of response to rage and criticism and dismissal of my thoughts and talents
Wow this is amazing. This describes me exactly. My narcissist mother says the most vicious cruel things to me, and it rolls out of her mouth so easily in an endless stream of verbal diarrhea. But when I hear these things, it's like my face, mouth and vocal chords are paralyzed. There are things in my head I want to say but I feel the path from my brain to my mouth is severed. It always made me feel like a stupid doormat. Now I understand. And you are right, not being able to respond actually has turned out to be a hidden superpower. As much as I want to say back to her, the next day I feel a lot less gross for not taking the bait. My conscience feels so much better and I have so much more self respect for not getting down in the mud with her, which is what she wants.
Wow just you talking about it gave me anxiety. It reminded me as a child when I was forced to go to my narcissist abusive dad the look he gave me as "I got you know, you thought you could escape me" and I froze.
tears falls down when i listened to this Dr. Ramani.
15yrs. of being silent to the rage of my husband. 🥺🤯
Oh my goodness this is *so* helpful *and* timely! I was raised by a narcissistic parent and as a result I found maintaining employment to be very difficult because I froze so often under pressure and stress, especially when dealing with toxic colleagues, bosses, customers, clients, etc. So thank you for articulating what I went through! 😊
Thank you so much for this video. This topic helped me realize that all these years I have been blaming myself by referring to myself as "daft" after these exchanges with the narcissists in my life. It just didn't occur to me that it was a form of freeze! Much gratitude to you for your valuable work!
It happened yesterday....still feeling the ramifications this morning...😱
Thank you Dr. Ramani…. I can remember feeling this way after my parents divorced. I have a great deal of respect for both of my parents. My mother has Alzheimer’s now but she had a very hard time adjusting to life after my dad had, had enough and walked out. Although he did continue to support us and he made consistent efforts to keep our relationship close, it was oftentimes intercepted or sabotaged. I can remember being non reactive and calm. My mother would often rage when the child support payments were late. This was not an everyday occurrence but at the time my dad was a truck driver and not everything in the trucking industry works like clockwork, to include a driver getting paid. We were not starving and the house payment was always made on time. Over time my mother pushed me away until she got sick with Alzheimer’s. Three positives that I carried into adulthood that I learned growing up as a teenager is… 1. Staying calm in high stress situations. 2. Do not talk badly about the co-parent or other parent. 3. Do not project adult problems like money onto your kids, as they are completely innocent. Thank you for this opportunity to vent. I appreciate you.🤔❤🇺🇸
Can people have a rage and shame cycle without being a full-blown Narcissist?
My dad definitely has talked to me about the rage and shame cycle because they did an intervention for my uncle because he ultimately had to get medicated for his anger problems. I definitely experienced my fathers anger problems with some serious repercussions from my childhood, but I also feel my dad has empathy and is loving most of the time.
I do think his anger problems set me up for the Narcissistic marriage that I later had. I left him after almost two years and it’s been about three years since I have left. I’ve been definitely having serious PTSD within this timeframe. I want more answers and I do work with a trauma-informed counselor.
Borderline personality disorder can have a similar pattern.
For myself, wandered around walmart at 10pm to get away from narc. Had to be at work by 7:30am..... Thank you so much!
Often wondered on cold winter nights how many women and men are doing the same thing......driving in the cold.....there must be somewhere someone else has to be, were my thoughts.
Gotta watch this ten more times ✨💕
When I freeze it is the #10 on my red flag warnings. Now I know it means he has gone too far and I have to remove myself from the toxic abuse that is happening at that moment. It is not a warning of danger. It is the response of my true self being shocked at the reality that someone who is supposed to love me is actually beating me up emotionally… and on purpose!
I've frozen before. One time I can recall was when my mom treated me to a tour trip to Southwest England several years ago. When we were che king into the hotel in London, she calls me a mooch. I was mortified! The check-in lady heard it too and I felt as if she was embarrassed for me.
I said nothing, but was shocked.
In my mind, I kept ruminating over this, thinking I should have told her not to talk tome like that, that I wasn't a mooch and speaking to me that way is rude and disrespectful.
Yes self blame and anger with ourselves! Being controlled and invalidated - later on I reconsider things I should have said - I’m so upset but I never improve myself for future encounters - yes unskilled !! Yes the overwhelming feeling & sadly he never has empathy - I never know who I’m dealing with or when the narcissist is going to explode - I’m unarmed
My narc family members are helicopter parents to their own kids. They started questioning my parenting. They would be afraid that I let my 4 year old play on the playground with other children while I watch from a comfortable distance. So whenever they say anything now I genuinely ask "Oh wow, what do you think is going to happen? He will be okay, he needs to learn to be independent, I wouldn't want to hover" Not attacking them or mentioning their parenting, but being securely confident in my parenting. (Their kids aren't even allowed to play outside with other children, or go down the street on their bike alone, at 13..in the middle of the picturesque suburbs..) I've found the genuine " wow, what do you think will happen" also applies to many other interactions with them because then they are forced to explain themselves and backtrack their though process. Usually they cannot come up with anything valid and us back off with a "well it was just an suggestion" or the word salad they come up with 🤣 its magnificent.
Great reaction!! I feel sad for their kids. No fun to grow up that way.
They say adolescents is the most impressionable time of a child's life. Lately, I'd have to extend that all the way to early 20s. With all the change and trauma our country has seen over the last 20 years the newest adults of our times are probably confused af. Some of them were raised by teens, kids raising kids makes some things become lost. Now we influencers have to teach them how to adult. And it's not our fault. #therealjanellemccoy
Been there, lived it!!
My freeze response comes AFTER any abusive interactions with the narcissists I know... In the moment I am strongly in either fight and/or flight... AFTERWARD once I’m away from them I find I can’t think and I can’t get anything done. I’m completely frozen emotionally, mentally and physically, like a deer that’s been hit by a car. Sometimes it lasts for days. I think it’s the shock and bewilderment of the interaction that completely shuts me down and I can’t function normally until my nervous system relaxes again.
Wow.. me too. I would be totally disfunctional for days, yet he would always act like nothing happened the next day and even when he "apologized" (very rarely), it was like so detached from the reality of what had just happened.
Same…good description. Peace and healing blissyogi
I experience this almost every time I see my stepmom. She has always been very extreme and would snap into rage in an instant at any time. I would always freeze and just let her lay into me because there was nothing else I could do. Now that I don’t live with her anymore, she needed a new scapegoat and settled on my niece. When I’m around them she has the same behavior and will instantly rage at my niece for the smallest things, and the times I witness this I still freeze. I get so angry at myself later because I want more than anything to show my niece that what she’s experiencing isn’t her fault and isn’t right. But I just physically can’t do that in the moment. Instead my husband is able to say something if he is with us in the moment. It is the strangest feeling to freeze and watch someone else stand up to my stepmom, and it helps to kind of wake me back up and notice my response, so hopefully I can learn to have a different reaction and help to protect my niece.
I have frozen before...then after a hour, I would have came up with what I should have said to the Narcissist...took the words right out of my mouth Dr. Ramani...☃️
I think my response is fight. I defend myself, explain myself and in general get involved. So, as part of exercising deep technique, I'm most of the time don't resoond. But sometimes i fall for it and it makes it worse, because now all the negativity is focused on my negative reaction rather than his abuse. I think freez reaction and flight reaction is best reaction in these circumstances.
Yes, it seems they just want to keep pushing your buttons until you get angry, raise your voice and overreact. Then they draw attention to you and say that you are the one with the problem, cuz you lose your temper.
When I was growing up, I'd sometimes apologize to my narcissist mother. Never mind whether I was right or wrong. She'd immediately fling my apology back into my face. Her narcissist son, my brother, would deliver abuse until his victim was in tears. Later he'd mock the person for crying.
It was hard to accept in the beginning but after several episodes I would just freeze and take it all on. His name calling and yelling was out of control and everything was my fault. I was the one that made him that way. This kind of relationships leave you questioning your own sense of reality and of who you are. I left him about 3 weeks ago it was painful but I feel at peace.
I "freeze" when the narcissist expects me to share very private information with them (because they're very controlling, or want to provoke me, or are fishing for such details, to use them later on). I feel confused and sometimes trapped (by the way, the online "phishing" was invented by a narcissist, for sure!).
Then, when I gray rock myself out of the sitiuation, I just treat it as extreme Zen practice ;)
This is ok. That freeze response keeps you from getting used.
OMG! Thank you so much Dr. Ramani😭❤️
This series has been helping me so much with mindfulness. I recognize when my body tries to communicate “this is not safe”, I feel like Im more able to respond rather than react and make it worse.
I cant wait to learn more about fawn response as well !
THANK YOU SO MUCH❤️❤️❤️
Yes, I have experienced that freeze response at an old work place. I would go home and feel bad or awkward. Then after an hour or so I would think of points I could've have made that would have made a significantly different outcome for me. This could turn into a rumination beating myself up over it. Eventually, affecting my self worth. Or thinking what is the matter with me by letting that person intimidate me. Thank you for helping me understand that freezing with my history was a natural response and understanding this concept.
When I was still living with NarcEX husband, I did EXACTLY that.
After leaving him, whenever on the rarity, I have contact with him, I got out of the "freeze" response, and tell him EXACTLY what I think/feel. I actually started doing that within a few months after leaving him.
So when I confronted him, HE froze, and said NOTHING about that specific thing I said to him. He got COMPLETELY quiet and ATTEMPTED to say something UNRELATED to the conversation at hand. It did NOT work, and it still does NOT work.
This is why my favorite promise from practicing the 12 steps via Al-Anon is, "We'll intuitively know how to handle situations that used to baffle us." It feels so good -- so good -- when that happens! Example: When a bully narcissist answered his front door while hosting a party for colleagues and saw me on the other side of the door, he did a 180 saying he was watching a golf tournament heading back to his big screen TV, I responded with, "Good thing you're not into tennis!" 😂
Thank you DoctorRamani for acknowledgement and validating triggers (self awareness) and more tools to manage these interactions.👌🏽
My ex narc. would invalidate my eloquent comebacks because "I didn't say it quickly enough" so the "moment had passed"
Thank you Dr. Ramani for the work that you do, you are a guardian angel to us all
💜🙏💜When a friend is confronted by someone , in my presence, and I hear how cleverly the friend answered, I realize how being frozen so often as a child (both parents), I never learnt, to this day, to have snapp answers ready, as my brain still freezes up. 😂😂
I agree, that a momentary self talk, nowadays, enables me to say something, instead of freezing up. Self-worth jumps to mind. 💜🙏💜
3 years of extreme guilt and shame shattered watching this. Forever grateful. Thanks
I didn't use to struggle with this until I firsthand experienced it, didn't realize this was a natural way of reacting in a narcissistic relationship. The letting them talk is so true though it's even funny how true it is. When they are angry they really let everything out with no gateway or filter. I think what helped me right away with this is before knowing this person I built up my mentality of "knowing my worth". I reality how much this person was trying to make me feel bad to the point the it was draining, then they would make a superficial apology jus to excuse everything they just said. In the freeze moment I would think "This is some BS, my work goes undetected by this person and doesn't realize I've carried myself and him on the back of my work and it goes unnoticed". The blame shifting would continue, until I just let everything go.
Reminds me of the movie "You've Got Mail." Meg Ryan's character was so upset with herself for not being able to think of the perfect comeback until long after the fact. Then, when she did come back at Tom Hanks' character with a zinger, she felt so horrible afterward. Love that movie! Best to just let the narcissist make a fool of himself by himself without joining in.
I've experienced this way more often than any human should, but when I think about it, my mind is just in shock. I think how the f**k could she even let those words come out of her mouth.....then I don't respond because of what I like to call an "intra-argument rumination" this happens and before you know it her rage has subsided and I awake. Call it a coping mechanism, but it helps....Also not fearing her C.R.A.P was another game changer (works well coupled with the D.E.E.P technique). CRAP stands for "Criticism" ,"Rejection", "Abandonment" or "Rejection"....
Yes, and I am glad of it. I see that people who go into fight mode with narcissists often get into more trouble.
RIchard Grannon talked the other day about how comedians have to hone their skills. Especially thinking about elite comedian roaster, who learn to control their normal response system and verbally spar at an elite level. Just like boxers and athletes who learn how to overcome their initial response. Richard Grannon and Pierre XO had a UA-cam live conversation earlier this week - and it came up. Highly recommend.
Nice when Dr Ramani reminds us of normal human behavior vs off behavior & Yes honey! There is a name for this & that… see? We aren’t crazy! There is a reason you felt that way… This is what you experienced
Have to laugh, now. My ex used to point out my freeze response with "You're like a deer in the headlights." I guess it's not really funny but now that I know what was happening to me it just further illustrates how insensitive Mr. Know-it-all was. He gone lol.
This scenario happened to me on my birthday last Monday. Over peanuts. The man who I live with, whom I’ve loved for 20 years, chewed me out and left me for dead. This is not an exaggeration. Today I got the breadcrumbs (“Movie night?”) and said no. I’d always give in. As long as we were okay, then all was okay until the next one. Done. No more cycling. I’m currently seeking a new place to live.
Thank you for your videos, Dr Ramani. I can’t tell you how much they have awakened me. It took a bit but I’m fully awake.
@Dr ramani replied SCAM ACCOUNT ALERT.
some instances, their statements are just so out of touch that you don't even know how to respond to it, some would be terribly harsh that the only thing that you can think of is, I won't say that to anybody much more to the person that I have children with and built a life with. The other part is, they have beaten you down consistently and tried to jump hoops to make them happy and avoid conflict, that your confidence level is so low that you are like a glass, that can break anytime if they yell at you one more time or insult you, that you cannot take another week of silent treatment and being invisible. They groom you to submit, use you to be their punching bag, so they will trigger you at will when they have some emotional turmoil inside, from work or other people they are pursuing, guaranteed you will be the one getting the garbage.
oh my goodness! This was very validating. Thank you Dr. Ramini!
I was consistently told by my quick witted narcissistic parent that I was SLOW. And many authority figures in my life reinforced this.
My recent freeze... happened at a wedding. A family member thought they could mend the rift between myself and the narcissist... They didn't know enough. But I worked up courage to talk to the narcissist (since I had been painted as a villain, I figured this could be a moment to understand that I am open to talking about things....... silly). They completely ignored me at first keeping their back to me and a handful of people noticed. Then the family member brought the narcissist to me and they didn't even look at me. This was an AWFUL FEELING and I was SHOCKED. This person raised me & "kept me safe" (though I am relearning what safety & accountability is as an adult now) It was... I can't find words. They looked at my partner and said family member with raging eyes (my partner said they had never seen eyes like that, while I knew that look very very well from my childhood). I asked how they were multiple times and they didn't answer. It took a lot of strength to engage with this person who I had known for decades. When they talked about me in my presence instead of to me the family knew something was off so when I was left standing alone, I literally couldn't move.
The tears (and a dissociative episode!) didn't come until the next day. I actually went through a weird manic stage after the freeze because I finally had a witnesses and I came across as calm *and didn't take the bait* at least.
Now I know that if someone thinks they can step in a solve.... With a narcissist ( I mean, when you finally know!!!) solving is IMPOSSIBLE :(
As a kid I was in a fight mode when I got in adult life and difficult behaviors I’m freeze bc I feel it’s worthless to say anything
That's it! Dont know how old you are but please let me advise you not to freeze for too long, look after yourself!
Understanding this freeze response is so validating! How many times have I beaten myself up for not immediately having the words to defend myself against a toxic person!
I absolutely freeze in arguments or when people are aggressive at me. I really wish I responded differently.
Oh God, as I was listening to your scenario at the table, tears were welling up in my eyes...yes, I have been thru this scene many times with my husband.