Shōgun just keeps getting better and better with each episode. This is definitely the best appointment television of 2024 so far. That ending has me ready for the last batch of episodes for this amazing show!
It's honestly annoying me how many people missed the genius of this episode because it didn't have sword fights or they weren't paying attention during the crucial conversations.
This show does a good job of trying to get across what people are thinking. And it's explicitly explained that the Japanese but Mariko is really trying to explain to John that Toranaga is often saying one thing but doing the exact opposite. This is probably one of the few visual media adaptations I've seen where missing the internal dialogue of all the characters is so hurtful to the plot. Toranaga is pretty much using every trick in all the complexity of their bureaucracy to play for time. That's why he gets so angry when his son goes to accept the paper; until he formally accepts the letter legally it hasn't happened yet. Toranaga is pretty frustrated a lot of the time because his people can't see that he's playing this LONG game and pretending to be submissive to the council but he pretty much accepts any meetings or offers they send but then delays that meeting for weeks or months. We see a bit of this in the show but Ochiba was in his custody temporarily for a birth, but after he should have handed her over he kept coming up with reasons to hold her longer.
My theory is that Toranaga and his brother are actually working together to get Toranaga into Osaka easily with his men so that they can rise up from inside. This show is WILD dude.
Hard agree. Everything, except what happened in the tea house, IS Crimson Sky. That tea house plan was the son and Umi being idiots. They didn’t know the details of the plan because they can’t be trusted. I think they legitimately believed Torunaga surrendered and thought killing Saeki was their chance at glory
@@kristenegziabher4095100%. I get the kid's point of view, but he's too cocky and eager. I think Yabushige, Omi's Uncle, will turn out to be Toranaga's man in the end too. I love that Toranaga included Gin and her teahouses (which would eventually become Gion and the geisha and all that) in his will and his view for the future, too.
No. Geisha don't exist yet. They are a product of the Edo period. The first geisha (Taikomochi, hokan) were men, appearing around 1730. They were/are entertainers not sex workers. The karyukai had specialized and defined roles for the people in it.
So, something from the book - the old tea shop lady knows the habits of men when they are with her women. Everyone else in the story is missing sleep or having trouble sexually or overcompensating. Toranaga and his best mate Hiro are still banging away same as always and sleeping like babies afterwards. Old lady realises from this that there is "A Plan" that Toranaga has absolute confidence in. She has no idea what it is but puts all her weight behind him. When she tells him "I'm just an old whore" Toranaga realises what gave him away and gives her what she wants. This story is so so so so good.
I feel bad for Toronaga's kid, every warrior he meets hits him with "You have never even seen a battle" and look down on him for wanting to be in a battle, no winning.
In addition to other comments, I also feel like this show is the anti-Game of Thrones. When the betrayal happens, I saw shades of the Red Wedding, but then nothing is done. Then, when the son takes matters into his own hands, we also get faked out because Saeki getting partner-erotic asphyxiation from Kuki it makes it seem like she's going to kill him when she speaks of elevating their play. I think the show is playing on what we've been conditioned to from Game of Thrones and other such shows trying to 'shock' us, but then it flips it over and shocks us in a different way.
I honestly think Gin (the Tea house madam) was showing her value as someone who see all sorts of things and could be useful. She has contacts and can read between the lines. In the book, Crimson Sky was a fairly involved plan, not just a run at the castle. But lets see how this plays out.
I think after Mariko begged him to end her life and he slapped the knife from her hand, Toranaga finally let her in on his plan and likely had her tell John to make a scene and walk out during his surrender so he could go off and prepare to do some sneaky stuff.
Yeah, Toranaga's son attacking his uncle was totally, again, not part of the plan. Toranaga doesnt seem like someone to just immediately give up, and he is a master of deception and trickery.
Look at you, being all "binge the show" Now you can suffer for a week like the rest of us. Read the book, watched the 80's show. Now have no idea how this is going to go for 8,9,10. Well played Shogun, well played.
The idiot son didn’t trust his father who is an experienced and successful general, and has no experience himself, was led by his ego and went contrary to his fathers wishes multiple times. The son got himself killed. Toranaga is smart not to share important tactics with an idiot.
This is one of the dumbest takes I've heard about this show lol. His son has been repeatedly warned at every turn that he is incompetent and needs to have patience and let his father play out his plans.
I *strongly* recommend viewers rewatch the sequence at 29:30, paying careful attention to Blackthorne, waiting to hear a specific phrase before he begins his tirade & storms out. ; ]
Good old Tricky Toranaga.. he’s got plans within’ plans.. who actually believes.. that a Man with so many spies and strategies did not see this move before someone actually thought of it.. im just curious how they portray his way of getting this done.. exciting.. also , SLIPPERY WHEN WET… imagine this episode with that Bon Jovi album as sound track.. lol😂
3 guesses 1 toranaga is so upset about son he fights. 2 his brother kills fuki and the other escorts and toranaga fights 3 toranaga and John have planned something out, for him to get up and go do something…
Saeki had the coldest line to that dumbass son of Toranaga's... Anyway, I think Crimson Sky was always a Trojan Horse style plan. Get in there "under arrest" and just take out Ishido or the rest of the council.
If Buntaro agrees to divorce Mariko, she is free to take her life and he can't forbid it. And he doesn't want her to die because he does love her in his messed up way.
I honestly believe that toronaga and his half brother has a plan. All this drama between them is just a front. Too bad Yoshi Nagakado is just a kid who couldnt read between the lines.
According to the 80s version, Yabushige's crime will cost his life and he commits ritual suicide. Lord Toranaga won the final battle. In the real historical account, Lord Toranaga was in fact the fictional depiction of Lord Tokugawa Ieyasu at the great Battle of Sekigahara, the Eastern Army led by Tokugawa Ieyasu had 75,000 men, while the Western Army numbered 120,000 men under Ishida Mitsunari (Ishido Kazunari). The final victory with Ishida's soldiers of 8,000-32,000 killed ~23,000 defected and victor Lord Tokugawa with 4,000-10,000 soldiers killed. Tokugawa claimed the title of Shogun, which started a new chapter in Japan's history of the great Tokugawa shogunate, which lasted 265 years of peace, paving the way for modern Japan in the coming Meiji era.
Adam I don't know if you're the one that primarily runs the channel, but can you pass along a message to Jay for me? GOSH DANG IT JAY! I'VE HAD THAT STUPID JINGLE STUCK IN MY HEAD ALL DAY! "CAUSE ITS PREVIEW'D, CAUSE ITS PREVIEW'D WITH ADAM AND JAY, CAUSE ITS PREVIEW'D" THE ONE THAT YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE GOING TO USE FOR THE THEME FOR YOUR CHANNEL. I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHY! GAH! That is all Adam lol. Hope you had a laugh because I genuinely can't get it out of my head!
It's funny to see you guys distract yourselves from a disturbing scene with random banter. Actor on screen commiting sepiku. The guys: Hey remember Doogie Houser 😂
He didn't have a taste for cutting dudes heads off. He was forced into it when he was young, as he was formally asked to. By the dudes whose heads he was to cut off.
Boy toranaga wasn't a genuis tactician and the guy was petty and mocked him throughout his whole surrendering with making him do the final strike knowing he'd struggle and with comments that basically say "let it be known, i was forced to fight knowing i'd lose by default" also implying boy toranaga didn't do anything to win since he won by default.
In case you didn’t know, the “new city” Toranaga is building in Edo is what would eventually become Tokyo.
Yup!
Shōgun just keeps getting better and better with each episode. This is definitely the best appointment television of 2024 so far. That ending has me ready for the last batch of episodes for this amazing show!
It's honestly annoying me how many people missed the genius of this episode because it didn't have sword fights or they weren't paying attention during the crucial conversations.
Also Fallout.
😂😂😂😂 "for the koi, it IS Crimson Sky" 🤣😂🤣😂😂🤣
"Why would a tactical genius bum rush Osaka?" FINALLY. Adam asks the right question!!!!!!
That part
Book wise, there was much more of a plan then Zerg rush, but lets see what they do.
"Bum rushing Osaka" is the objective, not the plan specifics. You can be certain there would be a lot of planning and preparation involved.
This show does a good job of trying to get across what people are thinking. And it's explicitly explained that the Japanese but Mariko is really trying to explain to John that Toranaga is often saying one thing but doing the exact opposite.
This is probably one of the few visual media adaptations I've seen where missing the internal dialogue of all the characters is so hurtful to the plot.
Toranaga is pretty much using every trick in all the complexity of their bureaucracy to play for time. That's why he gets so angry when his son goes to accept the paper; until he formally accepts the letter legally it hasn't happened yet. Toranaga is pretty frustrated a lot of the time because his people can't see that he's playing this LONG game and pretending to be submissive to the council but he pretty much accepts any meetings or offers they send but then delays that meeting for weeks or months. We see a bit of this in the show but Ochiba was in his custody temporarily for a birth, but after he should have handed her over he kept coming up with reasons to hold her longer.
@@Drefan13I dunno, I haven’t read the book but picked up within a couple of episodes that Toranaga was a masterful and subtle lawyer at heart
The kid had heart and wanted to prove himself but the water had other plans. RIP ☠️
Kid's as stubborn as a rock.
Unfortunately for him, water-type moves are super effective against rock types.
My theory is that Toranaga and his brother are actually working together to get Toranaga into Osaka easily with his men so that they can rise up from inside. This show is WILD dude.
Hard agree. Everything, except what happened in the tea house, IS Crimson Sky. That tea house plan was the son and Umi being idiots. They didn’t know the details of the plan because they can’t be trusted. I think they legitimately believed Torunaga surrendered and thought killing Saeki was their chance at glory
@@kristenegziabher4095100%. I get the kid's point of view, but he's too cocky and eager. I think Yabushige, Omi's Uncle, will turn out to be Toranaga's man in the end too.
I love that Toranaga included Gin and her teahouses (which would eventually become Gion and the geisha and all that) in his will and his view for the future, too.
That’s my theory as well
Yes it is the beginning of geisha. Although they existed already, Tokugawa gave them official status in Edo and they became what we all know now .
No. Geisha don't exist yet. They are a product of the Edo period. The first geisha (Taikomochi, hokan) were men, appearing around 1730. They were/are entertainers not sex workers. The karyukai had specialized and defined roles for the people in it.
Nice observation!
Saeki was to give the council's order to Nagakado to commit seppuku, and in a way, Nagakado did commit seppuku in front of Saeki
So, something from the book - the old tea shop lady knows the habits of men when they are with her women. Everyone else in the story is missing sleep or having trouble sexually or overcompensating. Toranaga and his best mate Hiro are still banging away same as always and sleeping like babies afterwards. Old lady realises from this that there is "A Plan" that Toranaga has absolute confidence in. She has no idea what it is but puts all her weight behind him. When she tells him "I'm just an old whore" Toranaga realises what gave him away and gives her what she wants.
This story is so so so so good.
oh yeah, toranaga accounted for almost everyone to make the ruse work. except the mama-san. 😄
Wow!
I saw the title card and I was like, "Yeah, I was thinking slippery when wet too, I just didn't want to say it."
"Cause of accident: lack of adhesive ducks."
nice reference :D
I feel bad for Toronaga's kid, every warrior he meets hits him with "You have never even seen a battle" and look down on him for wanting to be in a battle, no winning.
In addition to other comments, I also feel like this show is the anti-Game of Thrones. When the betrayal happens, I saw shades of the Red Wedding, but then nothing is done. Then, when the son takes matters into his own hands, we also get faked out because Saeki getting partner-erotic asphyxiation from Kuki it makes it seem like she's going to kill him when she speaks of elevating their play. I think the show is playing on what we've been conditioned to from Game of Thrones and other such shows trying to 'shock' us, but then it flips it over and shocks us in a different way.
Subverting expectations done correctly.
“Inter-pa-tating”….. Adam I love it and will now add it into my vocabulary 😂❤
I honestly think Gin (the Tea house madam) was showing her value as someone who see all sorts of things and could be useful. She has contacts and can read between the lines.
In the book, Crimson Sky was a fairly involved plan, not just a run at the castle. But lets see how this plays out.
WE MUST PROTECT FUJI. BABY GIRL DESERVES THE WORLD.
20:50 I think, Jay, that it’s the beginning of the “entertainment district”
I think after Mariko begged him to end her life and he slapped the knife from her hand, Toranaga finally let her in on his plan and likely had her tell John to make a scene and walk out during his surrender so he could go off and prepare to do some sneaky stuff.
If you can't storm the castle, get the to invite you inside. That's Toranaga's plan.
I agree on the John leaving part. I dont see him just running off without being stopped unless it's part of Toranaga's plan.
you've finally caught up and now have to suffer with the rest of us waiting for the next episode of this really great show!
Did you all know "bird coat" as you call him, was one of the og warriors 3 in marvel?
Yeah, Toranaga's son attacking his uncle was totally, again, not part of the plan. Toranaga doesnt seem like someone to just immediately give up, and he is a master of deception and trickery.
Considering that Omi's love interest is involved here, I suspect Omi was involved in pushing Toranaga jr. again into this action.
buntaro almost wrecks the plan too if he had given in to killing the anjin
Anjin looked Buntaro right in the eyes and was ready to die. Think that earned him a bit of respect, or at least was enough to make Buntaro pause
Buntaro also had not gotten the permission of Toranaga to kill him, so he couldn't really.
"why would a tactical genius rush osaka" unless he wouldnt
Good hand work during that intro, Jay 😂
You're finally caught up🎉
The enemy aliens in Ender's Game are called the Formics.
Doogie Howser MD, Scrubs & B99 (@9:32) references all in 1 video. no wonder you guys are the best.
oh wow, proud of u2 for catching up so fast! YOU FOOLS FLEW WELL!
Ok, the koi crimson dawn comment at the end 👏🏻 bravo
Look at you, being all "binge the show" Now you can suffer for a week like the rest of us.
Read the book, watched the 80's show. Now have no idea how this is going to go for 8,9,10. Well played Shogun, well played.
35:26 John probably went to get the Golden Company. 😆
I REALLY, REALLY appreciate this thumbnail.
Enya Adam?! Love it 💕
This Blackthorne is a shadow of the Blackthorne in the book and the 1980's series.
36:47 Adam, you genius. 💯💯💯
Gold star for the Warriors of Virtue bump. That was truly a strange time to be a child
Toranaga has a plan, and Mariko is part of it
The thumbnail is killer 😂😂😂
Toranaga keeping things to himself ultimately got his son killed imo.
Definitely a part of the tragedy, yeah
The idiot son didn’t trust his father who is an experienced and successful general, and has no experience himself, was led by his ego and went contrary to his fathers wishes multiple times. The son got himself killed. Toranaga is smart not to share important tactics with an idiot.
This is one of the dumbest takes I've heard about this show lol. His son has been repeatedly warned at every turn that he is incompetent and needs to have patience and let his father play out his plans.
Toranaga kept his word. Yabushige is calm.
Man this episode was a condensed Shakespearian drama!
I *strongly* recommend viewers rewatch the sequence at 29:30, paying careful attention to Blackthorne, waiting to hear a specific phrase before he begins his tirade & storms out. ; ]
Toranaga seems like a man who has plans inside of plans but I do not think he planned on that ending.
Thanks again to Jay and Adam! 🗾
Good old Tricky Toranaga.. he’s got plans within’ plans.. who actually believes.. that a Man with so many spies and strategies did not see this move before someone actually thought of it.. im just curious how they portray his way of getting this done.. exciting.. also , SLIPPERY WHEN WET… imagine this episode with that Bon Jovi album as sound track.. lol😂
Screaming betrayal reminded me of the good old spoony days before he went a little…off the rails. Good times.
3 guesses
1 toranaga is so upset about son he fights.
2 his brother kills fuki and the other escorts and toranaga fights
3 toranaga and John have planned something out, for him to get up and go do something…
this appears to be occurring is the new I guess we are doing this.
omi is so thirsty for kiku. and i can't blame him. 😄
the aliens in Enders Game were the Formic. (latin for ant)
Saeki had the coldest line to that dumbass son of Toranaga's... Anyway, I think Crimson Sky was always a Trojan Horse style plan. Get in there "under arrest" and just take out Ishido or the rest of the council.
We are coming closer to the finale!
Guys, the kid would not be Shogun, he would be Taiko 😅
Welp. There's your "crimson sky".
Here for the Doogie Howser conversation
@preview’d. this episode was definitely empire strikes back. Like starting at cloud city
If Buntaro agrees to divorce Mariko, she is free to take her life and he can't forbid it. And he doesn't want her to die because he does love her in his messed up way.
I’m so late to this but had to comment. “So Toranaga is like Ender!?!” ❤
I honestly believe that toronaga and his half brother has a plan. All this drama between them is just a front. Too bad Yoshi Nagakado is just a kid who couldnt read between the lines.
According to the 80s version, Yabushige's crime will cost his life and he commits ritual suicide. Lord Toranaga won the final battle. In the real historical account, Lord Toranaga was in fact the fictional depiction of Lord Tokugawa Ieyasu at the great Battle of Sekigahara, the Eastern Army led by Tokugawa Ieyasu had 75,000 men, while the Western Army numbered 120,000 men under Ishida Mitsunari (Ishido Kazunari). The final victory with Ishida's soldiers of 8,000-32,000 killed ~23,000 defected and victor Lord Tokugawa with 4,000-10,000 soldiers killed. Tokugawa claimed the title of Shogun, which started a new chapter in Japan's history of the great Tokugawa shogunate, which lasted 265 years of peace, paving the way for modern Japan in the coming Meiji era.
Why are you just spoiling the end of the series lol wtf
Awww. Dang show broke both jay and Adam. At the same time! That doesn’t happen often
I find Adam's lack of faith in Jay's theater knowledge disturbing.
Adam I don't know if you're the one that primarily runs the channel, but can you pass along a message to Jay for me?
GOSH DANG IT JAY! I'VE HAD THAT STUPID JINGLE STUCK IN MY HEAD ALL DAY! "CAUSE ITS PREVIEW'D, CAUSE ITS PREVIEW'D WITH ADAM AND JAY, CAUSE ITS PREVIEW'D" THE ONE THAT YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE GOING TO USE FOR THE THEME FOR YOUR CHANNEL. I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHY! GAH!
That is all Adam lol. Hope you had a laugh because I genuinely can't get it out of my head!
jay **is** my mom. and the sooner he acknowledges that, the better it will be for all of us. 😄
Totally random thought but you guys should react to severance
The ending for Shōgun is a pun.The stupidest character died hitting his head on a rock. Ishi atama 'rock head' is a idiom for stupid and stubborn.
It's funny to see you guys distract yourselves from a disturbing scene with random banter. Actor on screen commiting sepiku. The guys: Hey remember Doogie Houser 😂
Where does Jay get his cool lids!? Also, what is the cap he's wearing here? 🤔
There is a sequel to warriors of virtue
Crimson sky? More like crimson pond 😂
Do you guys have a plan to get out off this situations?
His actions….that is not how you show love.
He didn't have a taste for cutting dudes heads off. He was forced into it when he was young, as he was formally asked to.
By the dudes whose heads he was to cut off.
1st comment
I feel like the UA-cam ads are our commercials so we're even. Keep in the commercial shout-outs.
Did i catch a reference to the Dresden Files??? Yall have some good tastes!
Boy toranaga wasn't a genuis tactician and the guy was petty and mocked him throughout his whole surrendering with making him do the final strike knowing he'd struggle and with comments that basically say "let it be known, i was forced to fight knowing i'd lose by default" also implying boy toranaga didn't do anything to win since he won by default.
mentioning dresden makes me love u so much more :D