I will be enacting the forbidden yt technique called the Pin of Shame. Please chose your words carefully, lets try to actually be helpful to bungie and each other.
I think having SBMM as a toggleable on/off button will just make a pool of hardcore players, because they are the population that wants the feature gone the most. I think making glory 6s would be better, but find a way to target it to newer players as well, then you can loosen SBMM even more or even remove it from the main playlists.
SBMM is also a new player onboarding issue. If you're brand new to the game, you should not be playing against 5 times gilded Flawless players. Player onboarding/new player retention is currently the biggest problem Destiny 2 faces.
@@kieronmckay4276 Man, D2 players don't know how to chill. The number of players I've conversed with who no life this game to unhealthy levels is insane. And I dont know why! Even at its worst d2 fomo is nothing like what other mmos have, hell other shooters (warzone moment) yet we're some how magnetized to grinding this game on stop. It's something in our culture, thats the only reason I cam muster lmao
@@Furiouspenguin27 how many games, of them getting stomped, do you think it takes before most become frustrated a quit pvp entirely? I'm betting it's single digits. It is nearly impossible for new players to win, since they lack load outs, mods, map knowledge, etc. Forcing them to drop into lobbies with people who have put not just hundred of hours but thousands, is cruel to an extreme and a sure fire way to drive off all but the most masochistic of us.
@@paladingaming3192 I’d disagree with you, while weapons and mods do help, I’ve never ran mod specific loadouts and do fine. I’ve also gone in with blue weapons and done just fine. While I get some of you want to cater the entire game specifically to a brand new player and ignore what the serious/long term players ask for, pvp from halo on up has always been the best with no or extremely limited SBMM. SBMM in non comp game types has always been a shot in the foot, and ruins the longevity of the people who ACTUALLY play the type
I'm a lower-skilled player, and after struggling through a bunch of Mayhem matches to get the 50 super kills seasonal triumph, I finally queued into Control to see how SBMM would affect my experience. I had the most fun I ever had in Crucible. I was upper-middle ranked for two matches, and top killer on my team for the third. On one match, there was a player who I ended up trading evenly over multiple 1v1 engagements ( I think over 10 or 11 we had that match, they won 60%, I won 40%, but it felt pretty even). Did these matches feel sweaty? Not nearly as sweaty as 99% of my previous Control matches under pure connection-based matchmaking, where I generally went from .5 to .75 k/d depending on how badly outclassed I was. Before that experience, I was absolutely a "three and done" player. With perhaps more if I was trying for specific quest steps (exotic or catalyst). Now? I'll be happily queuing into Control more often if this experience persists.
True that brother, its way more enjoyable and the stakes feel lower Getting the ornament for this seasons pinacle weapon for crucible will be with excitement Hearing shaxx scream DELIGHTFULL encourages to continue
Quick correction: cod devs said they implemented sbmm since 2007, this is technically not true. What they had in earlier cods was connection based matchmaking, followed by lobby balancing, which the devs mistakenly referred to as sbmm. In other words, connection would be used to find the best lobby for you, then the game would balance the teams for some semblance of fairness. This is lobby balancing, not sbmm. Lobby balancing is not the same as sbmm because sbmm affects the lobbies you get put into while lobby balancing only takes effect after a lobby has been formed (which can be done by either skill based matchmaking or connection based matchmaking). Just wanted to clarify this since older cods most definitely did not have sbmm in the sense that most people think of it today. And even if they did have sbmm which I doubt, it was an incredibly loose sbmm, to where most people did not even realize that it was there. Keep in mind that that’s what bungie promised us, loose sbmm. Regardless of which side of the debate you fall on, it’s clear that the sbmm isn’t loose.
@@edullfranz except he’s not, my m8 had like a .40kd in mw2 and bo1…used to join his lobbies all the time because they where the easiest lobbies I’ve ever seen in my life.
Well said, my main complaints with sbmm are the poor connection, horrid lobby balancing, and longer matchmaking times. To clarify I don’t mind waiting longer for a good match, but waiting three times as long only to play against laggy enemies with skill ratings stacked against me is a bit ridiculous. For context of the skill bracket I’m referring to, I was a top 2-3% player in the past but I don’t play as often anymore so I’m probably only 8-12% at this point.
I'm gonna be honest, this is both as much of a server issue as it is the players fault. People don't even go wired and then want a good connection experience
@@anormalhumanhopefully8570 Im wired and I play with people with horrible like, lagging across maps horrible connection players. I even played without wired and there were enemies like that. I legit got off the game cause it was so bad
My only complaint when it comes to sbmm is if I drop a 20 bomb consistently I'll get paired against other people who do however the vast majority of my team will then only drop a few kills per match. I've had one match where half my team ended a match of control with a combined 6 kills and the lowest member of the enemy had 11. That and the people quitting a match after dying twice.
Well you were versing people who were worse then you, of course you'd get more kills, it's only fair that you get paired with others who can actually challenge you
That should start to get smoothed out over time with a SBMM system. You will start to move upward in the skill curve and get matched with people closer to you. It doesn’t mean you’ll never match with players like that again, I mean that is possible depending on where your skill actually places you. But it should make it less common with less as many players. Also keep in mind with where you could be at it isn’t uncommon for a person to have a bad match and be lucky to get 11. Then have a better match on the next one and get 19 kills. Maybe they’re trying to get specific bounties/challenges/triumphs completed so “unfairly” to their team they playing in a way they really are not skilled and comfortable with. Like trying to get bow kills and they suck with a bow. Maybe they’re trying out a build or subclass that they’re not used to and really isn’t for them. My point there is in the more average skill bands there are a whole lot of reasons players can up bad numbers.
I know you gonna show evidence or video that half of your team ended a match with a combine 6 kills, right! Just want to see who in destiny is worse than me.
Good points but I want to point out Bungie has has both SBMM and CBMM available at one point. However, the higher skilled players still complained about it because it was only them in the CBMM games because all the lower skilled players played SBMM. Why did they play that more? Because it was more fun for them to, because they could play crucible and not be mercy-ruled and KD farmed. I agree the crucible playlists need an overhaul and give better loot, especially in SBMM. I don't think that would solve the issues though because as much as Destiny is a loot game it is also a game and what people want more than loot is to have fun. If players are getting stomped and get an occasional high end loot from those matches they will still leave eventually because it's not fun getting spawn killed and farmed so someone can show off their KD. It sucks to hear but being a high skill player kind of comes with the other negatives in SBMM in Destiny because there are no dedicated servers for PvP. You can't have a good connection and skill balancing with the peer to peer system. I feel for you not being able to play the game the way you most enjoy but you have to understand when you frag out with your off meta build will always come at the cost of someone else's fun. For you to get 30+ kills a match other people must die 30+ times. Overall the most important thing is that this game continues to grow and thrive. If more people enjoy SBMM and that gets them to play more then Bungie will continue to pour resources into improving the game because it will keep growing. The more players enjoy ALL aspects off the game means the game overall will continue to grow and thrive. That is the most important aspect of all.
Unfortunately, if streamers aren't having fun, they will let everyone know. This will convince a large audience that the game is bad, and people will quit, or not try the game at all. Streaming has become a huge method to advertise your game. That's why "streamer treatment" is a thing.
Put in a different perspective though sbmm is bad for all parties involved. I remember when I first started playing d2 I was complete garbage at pvp (only played pve in d1). During forsaken I had to work my ass off with many nights of clutch victories and terrible losses to finally get weapons like Lunas howl and recluse. But as a worked for it I saw my kd rise, from a .8,1.5 and then 2.0. I feel like sbmm takes the pleasure and reward out of getting better because it just punishes you with better opponents. So why bother getting better if nothing changes.
@@ethanbradberry5224 "Oooh, that was such a good game! I've never gotten a 3.0 kda, i wonder how my next match will go!" *matches them with people that got 3.0 every game last season*
@@ethanbradberry5224 While you were getting your Luna, you were actually competing in the SBMM playlist. And you feel improvements not in the indicator of "K/D" ratio, but by how you outplayed your opponents, how you managed to clutch a match and so on. SBMM allows you to get fair matches, like the ones during your Forsaken climb, where you actually had a fighting chance almost every time.
Very well put. I remember exactly "Classic mix" where most low to mid skilled players didn't play and some content creators said that is a "visibility" issue coz node was too small 😂😂😂 Anyway IMHO player retention what Bungie is after and even if 20% of higher skilled players stop playing completely it's still fraction of low/mid skilled players who potentially going to play pvp even more.
I want to echo others' sentiment that less experienced players still need to "sweat" in lobbies in order to feel successful. Many of my friends don't even get to experiment with off-meta loadouts because the moment they put on something that they don't have down in muscle memory they feel they lose ability, feel less successful, get tilted and so on. I understand the connection frustration, but a good implementation of sbmm, or "soft sbmm" like bungie is trying, prioritizes good connections. SBMM is never mutually exclusive with CBMM. TDT and viewers: if you're willing to branch out, I highly suggest Sajam's video on SBMM. Sajam comes from high level FGC but he has vast experience in many genres, he is truly a video game veteran. He addresses the complaints you listed here and then some. The one complaint he does not address is the rewards, but I think that point is moot because again, many casual players often feel like they need to sweat just to keep their head above water.
the loot argument is not a moot point and no sajam is primarily a fighter genre creator with little experience in the shooter subspace. The problem you aren't addressing is that destiny's bare bones idea revolves around the concept of loot more so than any other shooter game, so that being said as an extremely high skill player myself I don't have a problem playing other high skill players as long as there is incentive to do so. It doesn't have to be guns but emblems or shaders that that can really point out the best in the game would be greatly appreciated and no comp isn't a measure of skill anymore as most people can get to legend rank as long as they have the time. Lastly the idea pointed out there should be a choice between sbmm and cbmm matches should definitely be a thing, you see the problem with sbmm is especially for me I cannot play with some of my friends simply because they would have no fun in the lobbies that come with playing with me, which is a problem in a social game like destiny where often times you aren't going to be playing with only friends of your caliber
@@terribletimes902 once again a commentator for a reason, and no my points still stand, you realize that he hasn’t been in the shooter space for almost a decade things change. And you missed my whole point conveniently, which is that destiny isn’t just an fps it’s a looter shooter so if you want to make the casual playlist harder make the loot better for players that you deem better. And fighting games have ranked systems hell even smash has one, whereas destiny hasn’t bothered to do anything with comp since it’s removal of pinnacles
@@terribletimes902 that’s also why other communities make absurdly less money than fps games with the exception of games like league and dota which have oh yeah a good ranked system to give incentive for good players to play their best
Less experienced raiders have to sweat during raids too while people like datto breeze through it, does that mean that datto's team should have signifigantly harder raids so they all have to sweat equally? No of course not. Its a very simple concept, put time into an activity to get better at said activity and as a result you get to mess around a little bit more, but as it is in crucible you get better at crucible but your experience within crucible doesnt change, its still as hard as when you started. You never feel a sense of progression because bungie is purposefully taking that away
The whole reason I still play destiny is because I like trying to make off meta exotics into viable builds (verity brow is being slept on hard with weakness magnetic grenades) so I definitely agree that it's hard to try things like this now. Even when I am doing well, next thing I know, several people quit on my team and it becomes pretty much impossible to win against 5 people aping you at once. Really annoying
You can still run fun builds. It just isn’t that competitive. Eventually you will lose enough to get into lobbies where those builds work better. You just need to prioritize fun gameplay mechanics over winning. This may be the underlying issue with a lot of these ‘anti meta’ comments. Ultimately people feel they can’t run them because it is not fun to get crushed. So even though people say they enjoy off meta play, they really enjoy winning more. There is nothing wrong with that. Just need to be honest with yourself. This is why meta loadouts exist and are the majority in game.
@@shadowpriceyear2713 with 1 stack of the verity brow buff and grenades cause weakness fragment, they do. Throw on an adrenaline junkie void weapon with volatile flow, then you get 1 one shot grenade comboing into a damage buff, volatile rounds, and devour. Pretty nutty
I gotta give you credit for actually acknowledging stomps, and even ALLOWING an alternate option of having 6s with SBMM alongside a 6s CBMM. So many pro CBMM types aren't even willing to give us our OWN space. I gotta work off your point about having to run meta and sweating. For a lot of low performers, this was the standard for several years. Meta+sweat, every game. I mean, the fact that you have to come to reckoning with this is kind of bewildering for me because it has been the standard for a lot of us for such a long time. And this is the outset of what you expect from as a "good game". For a lot, a majority even, ten kills and not being absolutely swamped IS a good game. Reasonable challenge IS our good game. Whereas a higher performer has wildly different expectations of what a "good game" is. For them, it's significantly far more kills. 30 kills. 40 kills. It's like moving back into an apartment after you lived in a house or taking the bus after having a car for 10 years. The withdrawal is immense, unbearable. But it has to be faced at some point, because I don't get hype from seeing myself or someone else get 40, 50, or 60+ kills anymore, I see a horribly broken MM that shouldn't be pitting these players against their respectively way higher performers. I see myself and others just quitting, even if we really do want to play PVP, against their opinion that we're doing the three for a pinnacle. We do want to play PVP, but playing it against them makes it an insufferable experience that thoroughly wrings out any possible enjoyment you could seek from the game.
Problem is that for a season or 2 there was 2 separate 6v6 playlists, one with sbmm and one with cbmm, And the pro-cbmm complained endlessly about it because more people played the sbmm mode, Pro-cbmm players will never be happy until all sbmm is removed from everywhere except maybe comp
as a Pro-cbmm player all I want is equality and fairness if I am to play in sbmm lobby's I would atleast like better loot, just like you all would like room to breath we would also like our room too, I understand there are players out there who pubstomp and those people should feel terrible but to condemn everyone else who enjoyed cbmm but was just playing solo, experimenting, or just casually gaming isnt fair you may see that way but it isnt and I'm sorry you had to tough it out for as long as you had its not fair to you all either.
@@Shyhood you don’t think there’s a distinct competitive advantage if top tier Connection based players got better loot? Your reward is you get to stomp newbs and casuals, if that’s not reward enough, well…To think Bungie could even balance loot drops to not make the game even more unfair is hilariously naive when they can’t even make a single match fair or stop putting out busted weapons. @C J, I just quit destiny all together. More money in my pocket and better mental health. This game is a cancer of the mind.
I've been a fan of the concept of SBMM for Crucible as a whole (with the exception of things like Mayhem/Momentum Control/Scorched/etc.). I am a little concerned about the execution of it though given how...passionate the d2 pvp community can be. Bearing in mind SBMM has barely been a thing in Control for a week, I imagine that Bungie is executing it thusly as an aggregation/data collection method first and foremost. I believe Mercules said something like Bungie devs playtest a lot, but year of them doing it doesn't amount to 1 day's worth of live player data. I wouldn't be surprised if Bungie come out and announce tweaks as the season goes on based on that data. I also wouldn't be surprised if they institute player timeouts for abandoning matches like you get timed out of survival for abandoning comp matches. I think it's important to separate the skill levels and it's important to balance the lobbies. Plenty of work is needed on both. New players coming in tend to walk right back out of crucible. My clanmates who are less pvp-focused than I find themselves frustrated in having to grind certain exotic catalysts because of having to get Guardian kills and they just get mollywhopped immediately. Overall, I think it's a good thing that SBMM is being attempted and I'm looking forward to seeing how it PROGRESSES. Because it needs to progress.
I really hope they don't add a ban system before they add stack protection and map voting. The only time I ever leave matches is when a see a sweaty stack on the enemy team, or if it's some garbage map like disjunction, where I know I won't have any fun because the map is terrible.
By doing this, you're basically making trials the casual playlist. The same problem D1 had. Having a penalty for backing out of casual 6v6 is going to drive so many players away from pvp entirely. Its not just sweats that leave games. Most people leave when they get disjunction or twilight ass. No reason to play a video game for pain and suffering. You play games for FUN.
See, saying it's only been a week is where you're wrong. This isn't the first time they've done this. In fact, the same exact problems from last time are here again, but even worse. Bungie knew the diehard pvp players, like myself, were going to hate it. I assume the casual players aren't playing more pvp, and now the only people keeping the playlist alive don't want to play
@@ethanbradberry5224 that I agree with. But we can only speculate what they do. I imagine it's easier to implement a ban system than it is to implement stack protection in a way that's different from freelance vs teams. I hope they don't implement a ban system for 6s at all.
@@yhelloh trials needs a complete overhaul, let's be clear about that. I still maintain that Cammy had it right when he suggested that Bungie doesn't even know what the identity of trials is. They've made well-received changes to it, but it needs a complete redesign, imo. And I don't think they should start banning people for backing out of 6s. I was only speculating because that's one of the more common complaints I'm hearing: people leaving games in session for whatever reason.
The point of SBMM is not to "force you to improve", people don't really improve their rankings without conscious effort. It's to make Crucible more fair to everyone by making people play with their peers, not someone way outside their league. And thus the analogy of strikes going to grandmaster without the loot getting better is absolutely wrong. What you (and most other PvP players in the higher skill brackets) experience now with SBMM is a more fair matchmaking. Anyone who's better than half of Destiny PvP players have played (on average) easier PvP in CBMM, than those who are below that half. I'd like to propose a better analogy for you: imagine the default strike difficulty was GrandMaster, but as your skill goes up, the difficulty is instead going down. So the newer players have to struggle both due to lack of skill and due to lack of loot. By "locking" the "difficulty" to each player's skill, we eliminate that difference and everyone can have a similar experience. (Locking is very loose here, as even Bungie's optimistic target is expecting 60/40 win rate spread, but really it's much closer to the 75/25 so far in my experience) You want wacky builds - go ahead. Maybe you'll lose more, but the system should recalibrate and accommodate your suboptimal play soon-ish. You want to sweat your ass up - go ahead, the system will find you some worthy opponents soon. The main downsides of the SBMM system are: Smurfing, aka cheating the skill system, but it's much less pronounced in the MMO where the sunk-cost and time commitment to roll a smurf are very high. Bad Connections, which, as you correctly identified can be addressed by either more strict matchmaking (for example, I'd rather wait more for a better match), or by being much more strict regarding the baseline connection requirements. With all that said, I can see the non-SBMM option, but it should be an opt-out, like "I'm ok to get stomped, get me into the match quicker".
I was about to start hacking away with a lot of the garbage uttered in this video by you did a pretty good job here. The top %age of players think using "off meta" loadouts and chilling means the absolute skill advantage they have over average skilled players goes away. The average player has to "sweat" just to stay in the realm of contention and it feels awful to still be farmed. The strike analogy he used was also ridiculous since PvE is fundamentally different than PvP, Bungie can't balance you the player (minus making you aim slower, blinding you, or coming to you house and kicking you or something ridiculous) but they can balance the difficulty of the strike by adding/removing enemies making them more/less accurate ect.
One thing about the doesn't force you to improve part, I'm pretty sure that even if it doesn't hand hold you and force you to improve it does provide optimal conditions to improve and get better incrementally. Like you win more, you climb up the proverbial skill ladder until you hit your plateau, at which point you either stay, or learn a bit from opponents at that level and keep moving up. The difference being that unlike throwing someone at Everest and saying "git gud" as non-SBMM would do if you're new, you get instead a progressively steeper mountain with plateaus for you to rest at for safety and practice.
I'd like to see TDT address every point made here, because there's a lot of truth in this comment. I don't think higher skill band players' complaints are completely invalid however, lol it's clear that connections have gotten worse for them in sbmm, and there's a fair argument for having to try harder being unrewarded, though the latter is a little hard to argue considering what us at under average kda have had to go through.
"You want wacky builds - go ahead. Maybe you'll lose more, but the system should recalibrate and accommodate your suboptimal play soon-ish." For this to be accurate you have to separate skill across all the modes (which they should be doing anyways since trials and comp and control all play EXTREMELY DIFFERENT. As the modes intent, I'm gonna be sweating my balls off for trials, but there's no reason for me to play the "fun" mode when it's not fun and it's matching me with my trials enemies with worse loot. This "suboptimal accommodation" for wacky loadouts only operates in a world where you are playing control and not tryharding in any of the other modes as bungie MM currently stands
I was just talking about how neither side is being productive by strawmanning the other side. Something I see a lot of the high skill players fail to see is the fun factor. They’ll go on about how they don’t want to sweat every game but ignore the fact that the lower skilled players want the same and without SBMM they have to sweat or spend most of the game respawning because higher skill players are constantly going on 5+ streaks. There needs to be at least some SBMM so all skill levels can have fun without sweating
The key difference though is that some players actually put in time to get better at the game. Many players who arent putting in time to improve are now being catered to, despite not being the ones who play the game the most. I get that the game should be good for everybody, but how is that fair to people who got stomped, but instead of being discouraged by that, they were instead motivated to improve and eventually got good at pvp? With all due respect, if you’re not willing to put in the time to improve at crucible, why should your opinion be weighted just as heavily as the people who spend most of their time in crucible? At least in the old system, if you were tired of getting your ass whooped, you could put in the time to get better. Now if you do that, you’re just going to continually get harder and harder players with worse connections and longer wait times with no actual reward. So at that point, what’s the incentive to keep playing pvp?
@@the_VPR Mate, weight others opinions as less because they don't want to play CBMM as much as you do is not it. This isn't all due respect. If they end up playing PVP more than you do because of SBMM, does that somehow make your opinion less? No. These people want to play PVP, but for them, playing in CBMM thoroughly wrings out any expectation of enjoyment from PVP, just like it does for you with SBMM. You have to understand that at the end of the day people play games to have FUN, even you, and if they aren't having it, they aren't playing, simple as.
@@cj6498 so what if we took that same approach to the raids in destiny 2? I don’t do a ton of raiding, so should my opinion have just as much weight as people who are constantly raiding?
@@the_VPR look man I’m not here to debate or argue, just pointing out a fact plus this really comes off as “we had to suffer so everyone else has to too”. What will likely happen is players won’t get discouraged because instead of constantly getting one sided games their wins and losses will be closer, pushing them to wanting to get better. I used to be into crucible but constantly getting games where it’s an absolute wash because I’m being matched against people twice or more my skill level, the cheesiest builds or hackers (thankfully that part is mostly fixed) made me stop having fun or caring and I instead decided to focus my Destiny time in challenges that were hard and fun. PvP games that were close motivated me to improve more than games that felt like I was boxing Floyd Mayweather. Destiny’s PvP is hard but it’s not fun because there’s no healthy way to grow and improve or a carrot to chase and just because you slogged through it doesn’t mean everyone will find that fun too. I still play Crucible but only when there’s something I want to chase, be it the weekly pinnacle, an exotic catalyst (cryosthesia’s was the worst but its a great pve exotic) or mostly Trials loot. Destiny needs a matchmaking system that rewards improvement but not at the expense of lower skilled players. Raids wouldn’t be as much fun without being able to help lower skilled players improve and much like how I want everyone to have fun in raids no matter their skill level I want the same for crucible, fun for everyone not just the high skill players. Plus the more low skill players that have fun the more that will stick around and improve and by extension the bigger and healthier the population gets.
I’m saying that when I got stomped, I decided I didn’t want to get stomped. So I got better at the game. And now I’m being punished for that with laggier games, longer wait times, and not being able to have fun in literally my favorite activity in the entire game. How on earth is that fair? Not saying the old system was perfect by any means, but at least every single player had the opportunity to improve their own experience by improving at the game. You mentioned one sided games, which is more of an issue with destiny’s (atrocious) lobby balancing than it is matchmaking. The majority of players in any given CBMM lobby are going to be around average, with maybe 2-3 outliers. When those outliers aren’t separated appropriately, you generally get one sided games. The lobby balancing in destiny is horrible, and it’s a damn shame that bungie decided not to touch their lobby balancing system before implementing sbmm. Not to mention, we had the comp playlist. If people wanted competitive games, why not enter the comp playlist? Obviously the rewards system is a joke there, but it’s still more rewarding than regular crucible. Now there’s no way to opt out of strict sbmm. With regard to raids, the key difference is that high skill players have the option to help low skill players which is rewarding. Key word: option. What if bungie implemented a system where if you had over x number of clears, you were forced to be a Sherpa every time you wanted to raid. That’s more in line with what sbmm is now, since whether you like it or not, you have no option to opt in or out, whereas before you did. If you weren’t having fun with the CBMM experience, you could go into survival for a reprieve. Now, your only option to escape sbmm is rumble (which I do play more of now but it obviously lacks the teamplay aspect that makes destiny so fun) and whatever the rotating playlist happens to be, which needless to say features some pretty lacking game modes most of the time. In general, I do agree with you. Bungie needs to implement solutions that aren’t alienating swaths of their player base, regardless of whether it’s hardcore players or casual players. Like you mentioned, the best way to do that is by keeping playlist populations healthy and keeping them from declining. I think where we disagree is that the sort of strict sbmm that bungie has implemented (despite them saying it would be loose, let’s not pretend like that’s true) is not the best path forward to achieve those goals. Was the previous system perfect, of course not. But at least before, people had the ability to opt out of or into sbmm, and people weren’t punished for their improvement at the game with lag and longer wait times. The best sbmm is going to dramatically improve the experience for those at the lower end of the skill gap, and ideally not change much for everyone else.
1. SBMM was a choice at one point in the Clash vs Control playlists. The result was that all skilled players gravitated there and essentially created an environment like trials where it was just them being uber sweaty with each other. 2. The idea that 'I don't want to sweat' is a facade. For every higher level player that just wants to roll with a goofy build for fun but can't because they 'have to' sweat there is a less skilled player that will never be able to do that either. Here is an idea, have fun with the game. Put on a goofy loadout and sacrifice some of your 'skill' for that fun. Eventually the game will put you in lobbies where you belong with goofy loadouts. 3. Playing PVP for loot should never ever be the solution. PVP, especially the casual version, should be just for fun. If loot is the only incentive to play an unfun game mode then you have failed. We are all looking at you Trials playlist. TLDR Everyone wants to have a fun experience. The only way to truly do that is to have a fair game experience. The only way to really be fair is with SBMM. It sounds like you are coming around to this concept. The system certainly could work on the fringe areas of issues. But essentially it should really exist all over and not be thrown away. I don't personally think map selection or loot or any of the other window dressing ideas will really help if the core game play isn't fun and fair. Again, look at Trials. Pretty toxic environment for a majority of the player base.
Honestly man, use fun builds and just enjoy the games. Losing matches isn't a bad thing as long as you're having fun, idk y people playing d2 pvp likes it's some championship, d2 isn't a competitive game n it never will be. It's a PvE game, pvp is just an additional mode in the game. I'm just surprised people don't understand these things sometimes
@@ManithGodamunne and i dont get why people like you think its remotely fun to be stomped in a casual playlist by deathballing 4stacks running meta guns with maybe only a duo on your team. I dont play crucible because its so ungodly unbalanced, and just queuing any mode now to get arc guardian kills shows me this is the opposite of enjoyable, because being dead to stacking try hards isnt enjoyable and sbmm actively encourages this nonsense
losing is not the concern, people want to get kills and when off meta loadouts dont produce immediate results its extremely frustrating. i dont think people mind so much losing as doing abosulte dog water in game
Im personally all for sbmm, the last few day are the most fun I've had in pvp in a really long time, with close games and equally skilled players. A win feels genuine and earned and a loss feels fair and more like a lesson on how to improve. My friends and I have mostly played pve and only done pvp for bounties, but now it's actually enjoyable go into matches with them. Getting stomped out 25 - 150 is extremely demoralising and had just turned us off from pvp for the longest time. New players won't be shunned away from pvp by the top players, and lesser skilled players(like myself) actually enjoy more of the game than before
It's still fun BECAUSE you haven't played much. There will be a point where your ability as a player will "cap out". I'm not an amazing player, but would consider myself slightly above average when I really want to test my mettle. It is EXHAUSTING playing every match at 100% and I find the meta of games very boring, personally. And it will be every game when you hit your limit. If you do not use your "try hard" gear, it WILL be a stomp almost guaranteed. Think about it this way, if you fight someone who is equally skilled as you and you both use the exact same things, it should be a 50/50 match, in theory. If you switch to something that is objectively worse than what your opponent uses, then your odds of winning drop drastically because you have to play the game at a higher skill level than you are physically and mentally capable of doing to bring up the odds back to around 50/50. Now if you were paired with someone who is of a lower skill than you, you CAN switch to an objectively worse loadout than your opponent and you would have room for mistakes, allowing you to go easier on yourself while still having that chance of winning close to 50/50. I'm glad you are having fun, but once your skill rating settles, you will probably play less games in a session because of how draining it will end up becoming.
@@Lamp37820one thing u arent addressing also is what did a lower skilled players have to do in CBMM just to clear bounties? they also had to sweat their life out just to get thier bounties cleared because they would be put against people on average higher skilled than them. Now what if they had a bounty for off meta kills? they would be lucky to get even 1 per match. I know SBMM is sweaty if u wanna win but at least i can get kills with off meta loadouts and not 0 now and im pretty sure even though u would probably do badly and lose with off meta u can still at least get to see how ur cool off meta build works for a few kills unlike lower level players in CBMM where i cant even get out of spawn sometimes let alone get off meta build kills and in the worst case u can just keep using ur off meta build till ur skill rating goes down and u will get some easier games where u can use it effectively. also getting stomped is actually more motivating knowing im less likely to face them and more likely to face others instead of in CBMM where the chance of landing the exact same enemy team is actually ridiculously high
@@krater6858 you are absolutely right. I wish I had a solution that would help everybody, but SBMM is really only beneficial for those in the lower skill bracket. But without it, the lower skill bracket is hurting because a majority of players are at a higher skill than them. At least with SBMM, everybody gets a little screwed over, as opposed to just the lower skill. After half a decade of playing fps games with strict hidden SBMM, I'm just so sick of it. Halo, cod, apex etc. Social playlists are indistinguishable from what is supposed to be the ranked ones a lot of the time nowadays.
as an average player, i like sbmm, here's why: connection was ass before anyway, there's not much difference in quality. (as long as bungie has peer to peer servers, i can't take the argument of "sbmm makes connection bad" seriously.) you actually don't get rammed every other match. (top tier players can't pub stomp a lobby if they actually play against their caliber, they are kept out of ruining average players' days) matches are generally more enjoyable, because the teams are equal in skill. i actually improve at the game bacause i'm playing similarly skilled players. people like you, tdt, or content creators in general, get a glimpse of the crucible as it actually is for the average joe. we don't get to try out fun builds, and we're most likely never going to stomp an entire lobby. why should a small minority of top tier players have fun at the expense of the larger crowd? while i do agree that the higher the skill, the better the rewards should be, i have to ask you: have you ever played crucible for the rewards since mountaintop/ recluse? or do you just need upgrade fodder to get to the power cap faster? we both know the answer, so tell me: do the rewards really matter? imo, sbmm is a massive W.
I forgot to bring up connection in my own comment. I actually have no connection problems 99% of the time. Occasionally a player is really laggy but I have seen this more after sbmm went away. And matchmaking times are never a problem for me with either system, sbmm does not tend to take no longer to find a match in my experience. Maybe this is because I'm on console, idk
You took the words right out of my mouth. I’m a slightly above average player and ever since sbmm was reintroduced my crucible games have been fun again. And your right, the only time I play pvp is for seasonal challenges or the pinnacle reward. But when I play those crucible games now it’s a good experience. I don’t have to worry about facing tryhards using the meta. Trials is supposed to be the endgame pvp mode that’s where all the good rewards should be for pvp. Not just another control game. I swear the only people I see complaining about sbmm are the top tier pvp players because now they have to face people of equal skill to them instead of pub stomping like they’re used too. Loose sbmm is great and I hope bungie doesn’t fully listen to these top pvp players. They’ll probably just ruin it for everyone
The problem is, for average to below average players, the sweats dont like picking on people their own size, so they use that one SBMM fireteam glitch to get sweats (2+kd) into the average (1-/+kd) lobbies and it is painful to play agaisnt
This will be one of the core decisions Bungie make moving forward. I like PVP but I am not 3.0 KD player. From the perspective of someone on the complete opposite end of the spectrum as you are I don't know how either one of us is going to ever be completely happy with what happens next. I do know that my average play time doesn't allow for a lot of pvp for anything other than getting challenges or catalysts done when required but i have always enjoyed it...until they removed sbmm completely. I was a 1.4 KDish player before that and a few months in after they removed it I was a .6. I hope we can find a middle ground where players at the lower end of the spectrum can enjoy Crucible but i have absolutely zero confidence this can be achieved. Players like me aren't taken into consideration very often and I understand why, I am not in Crucible for the majority of my play time so why would they balance for a player like that. If they can make it even somewhat bearable I might put some more time in like I used to but the constant steamrolling from the past cant continue. Its not sustainable. If they don't do something to even out the player base there wont be a player base in Crucible. Pretty soon the only people that will be doing pvp at all will be the top end and every game will be a sweat-fest regardless of what kind of rules they implement because players like myself will just never play Crucible and I'm ok with that.
As a pvp player theres basically no loot. So my main goal is to flow and improve. After it got tougher i improved and now im a better player. But now im getting punished uberhard for being decent by matching top 0.1% lobbies with avg. kd/s of 2 and connections to china 9of 10games. I played, i stuck with it, i improved. Now i get no loot still and get punished for it. Eff this.
I'm in the same position. as much as high skill band youtubers etc will go on and on about how they understand that there are people who are happier with this system, they fail to ever properly acknowledge it. my kda is just as bad, but in contrast I've played quite a bit in the past. sbmm has made every match feel so much more fair, and im regularly topping my team now. gone are the days of one player on the enemy team stomping my entire team and dropping 50 kills, instead almost every match is even. lag is an issue rooted in p2p, and frankly it'll never not be an issue until p2p is gone entirely.
The nice things I've noticed in PvP this season: - Every match has had people with similar combat efficiencies - The matches are typically closer, some outliers though - class variety again! - 'meta' builds aren't as frequent, might be because no one has defined one yet. But it's less of the usual weapons. The bad things I've noticed - More people leaving - More stacks that cause outlier matches that favour one side - More toxic players, tbagging, emotes and not Caping zones and just rushing you. - Slight desync with connection - Combat rating and Skill are skewed now and not the same as elo and CE. People with low CE and elo have easier matches and may win more and get a higher elo, but their CR is still low. While people with high CR are in harder matches, lose more often and don't have a good ce and win rate. It's almost harder to identify a good player and a player who's been in high skill matches now. Which honestly might not be that bad. These are just things I've noticed. Your results may vary. No statement is being made here. Just giving my experiences.
After almost two years of getting absolutely CLAPPED by asian basement lords it is a nice refresher to know that normal humans actually exist and play the game casually. I saw someone use the ruinous effigy besides myself the other day. Can you believe that? It was my first time getting killed by that thing and I was active during the entirety of season of arrivals and never saw it once that time. Although there are still the occasional stomps and getting stomped, it has always been a lack of teammates rather than being completely outmatched.
Since the launch of SBMM I've said to my brother who I play the game with, "Hey you wanna jump into some crucible?" and the answer isn't a defeated sigh, he actually wants to play it.
Even in a utopia where: Glory is actually worth playing in indefinitely, lobby balancing was finely tuned. If connections were on the playable range, & queue times weren't a 20 minute mandatory break between matches, I honestly don't think it would make Quickplay the loadout experiential golden land that is whispered about. At the end of the day 99% of Destiny player's have been hard wired for years to take the easiest route to the desired reward. As long as winning equates to the easiest way to have fun in people's minds, sweats will always be in Quickplay.
You do realize that a mid k/d (1.1) player like myself normally has to sweat in every single game. There are some exceptions but generally we have to put in the work just to keep our heads above water. For me, that is what I like about competitive activities. I always try to play my best. Could be a generational thing as I grew up playing face to face sports exclusively.
Id agree if it was only the properly competitive modes, but when any and all game modes end up like that people tend to not like it because its a very high skill ceiling and somewhat gate keeping experience to have to literally play like moneys on the line to have a chance to put up a moderate fight. Casual players won't like it solely because it requires max effort
A 1.1kd isn't mid-level, That puts you in the top 23% Pretty far above average, People tend to massively underestimate their own relative skill in this game, So if you're saying you have to sweat every game, the 77% of people under you that you'd go against under cbmm would have to sweat even harder and even then still probably wouldn't win,
@@Pbr7994 Hmmm...well now my k/d is 1.4. I don't understand how it could go up by ~30%, because any reasonable filter would skew me to playing against higher skill players. And I'm an ancient player (64) so I have a reflex disadvantage that I have to compensate for in different ways.
I think for mid to lower skilled players there’s a feeling that they have to also play “meta” loadouts almost all of the time if they want a chance to even compete, they (myself included) don’t necessarily possess the skill to be able to play however they want without getting stomped by an enemy team. My *hope* is that they’re trying to make the crucible feel more friendly and grow the player population in those playlists. There’s a certain point where the skill gap does matter for improvement. If a player doesn’t know why they lost an engagement they can’t really learn from it.
Yup that’s exactly how I felt playing multiplayer for months. But this week my games have been easier. It looked and felt like I was playing against average casual players. I was able to use any weapon I want, do decent and not get frustrated
Name: boomstick Flavor text: BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE Weapon type: Energy solar pellet shotgun Exotic perk: chargeable shotgun: this gun can be charged consuming 1 bullet every 2 secs the trigger is held. Release the trigger fires all shots in one huge shot. Charging for 3 secs after all shots are consumed cause the gun to detonate killing the wielder Exotic perk: Explosive payload Catalyst: TIMED PAYLOAD
Hey Mesome, video was awesome as usual!!! Thanks again for the match yesterday, was in shock afterwards that I had 1v1’d my most favorite UA-camr!! Keep it up man!! (Also I’m going on a whole training arch, I’m gonna win a rematch)
This debate breaks down pretty cleanly based upon where you rank in the skill curve. Higher skills players (who objectively make up the smaller portion of the population) do not want SBMM because it makes their experience worse. Less skilled players (who make up the vast majority of the player base) want SBMM because it makes the games more competitive, and means they actually have an opportunity to play the game. Most systems that prioritize the desires of the elite minority are bad; they unevenly weight towards the elite end, and thus make a large swathe of people "second class citizens," so to speak. As far as I am concerned, good players ought to be playing against good players, and bad players ought to be playing against bad players. I understand the argument from both sides-and yes, SBMM will make the experience worse for the good players-but it reduces suffering overall by tailoring the experience to the lowest common denominator.
Correct, which is why I said i generally agree with the system. Something I didn’t mention but is worth discussing here is that currently sbmm actively dissuades you from getting Gm better and winning games long term because of the points you already made. Does that seem right?
@@TDTProductions No of course it doesn't seem right. The systems that Bungie has put in place are actively detrimental to the higher end of the skill curve (as opposed to incidentally detrimental.) For example, in many FPS games SBMM is active only for the first few seconds of matchmaking, but switches to a connection based criteria after the initial timeframe (say 10-20 seconds.) This ensures that lobbies are more balanced than without SBMM, but does not put the impetus on higher end players to wait for several minutes while SBMM finds 11 other players within their skill band. Then, games will use lobby balancing to ensure that the teams are at least competitive, even if the individual results are somewhat stratified. For some reason, Bungie has elected to forgo the middle ground and stick to a purely CB or SB matchmaking system, except for in the most extreme situations (and their lobby balancing usually sucks.)
when people say that sbmm is a sweat fest usually dont realize is that pre sbmm if they were the ones with a 5 kd, to the other team they were the sweat lords ruining their fun, with or without sbmm people are going to say its sweaty, either because they are fighting players of similar skill, or because they are on the reciving end of high skill players going 40 and 2. I think your suggestion of having a casual and competative playlist would help this, so people who want to/sign up to stomp or be stomped can do so and people looking to fight similar skilled players and improve (maybe with some better rewards too) can do so as well
I think a good analogy if you put Manchester City or Barcelona in a lower league for a year. They’d win every game 40-0 without even trying. Then put them back in the top division so that they actually have to compete against the teams they play, and they find it infuriating because now they can’t just mess around and still absolutely dominate because they aren’t playing teams that are basically amateurs in comparison anymore.
Best (and fairest) suggestion I've heard about this is to make it a toggled choice on which type of matchmaking you wish to use. That way the player themselves can choose.
I agree with everything but making SBMM optional on paper this makes sense, but in practice it wont work, the only players who would willingly go into a non SBMM playlist are either brand new players who don't know its not SBMM or good players trying to escape SBMM, leading to a playlist of like 90% good players as a lower to average skilled player you'd have to have some BIG rewards for me to step out of my SBMM comfort zone, I've only sat down and grinded trials twice first time was when freelance was first ever added and I grinded 15 hours straight for a flawless, one of only 2 flawlesses on my account (2nd of which was when a really good player I randomly found on LFG carried me) and the 2nd time I grinded trials was for Reeds Regret, I've never played trials for more then maybe 2 hours other then those 2 times when I play PvP I only stick to the SBMM playlists, which tend to be sweaty other then control, I hardly played PvP before, out of my 2,600 hours on Destiny 2 only 800 hours are PvP, but this season with SBMM being added to control I've for the first time ever in my 4 years of playing Destiny 2 am playing more PvP then PvE
@@terribletimes902 thats the opposite of what needs to be done the problem is that if SBMM was optimal then the only players that would play CBMM would be sweats, so CBMM would need good loot to entice the lower skilled players to play outside of SBMM but you could say the same for the higher skilled players with SBMM, but the problem with giving SBMM playlists good loot means lower skilled players get high tier loot for a fraction of the effort of high skilled players, in CBMM its the exact opposite, but I think thats fine, high skilled players should be rewarded for having that high skill, that reward would be easier to obtain loot, where as lower skilled players would struggle for the good loot in a CBMM playlist this also gives lower skilled players a reason to improve improvement would lead to more loot, in SBMM your going to perform roughly the same regardless of your skill level, so everyone would get even loot, in CBMM the best players have the best loot where as the worst players would have to put in a lot more effort for the same amount of loot SBMM playlists should be the casual ones, your not there to get a crazy amount of loot, your just there to play, sure this is terrible for higher skilled players, but higher skilled players could go to the CBMM playlist, and because lower skilled players have a reason to go to the CBMM mode it wont just be sweats keep the SBMM mode for the 75% of the player base who are not good enough to really have fun in a CBMM environment but add a CBMM playlist with good loot to give that 75% a reason to play it and also rewarding good skilled players with loot
Yea because ur bad at pvp my games have to be sweatier than usual😂i used to get a good mix of sweaty games and easy games, now its sweat pretty much all the time
I have a solution to this being a hot button issue… Ice In all seriousness though, I think a revamp to the glory playlist rewards would be nice seeing as it is just more of the same even though it is meant to be the competitive mode.
Name: phoenix rise(Warlock armor) Flavor text: I WILL PROTECT YOU! Armor type: boots Exotic perk: Guardian angel: when you are alive it grants scorch(5 stacks) to EXOTIC SOLAR weapons. Once you die you spawn a fire spitting turret at your death location that protects your ghost for 5s
I was one of the people begging for SBMM for multiple seasons (basically since the 120 HC meta when I got really into PvP). Now that it's here, I absolutely love it. I mostly play solo for PvP and I'm not getting ran over by 6 stacks game after game anymore, which happened a LOT over the last few seasons. For me, crucible is fun again and my performance has greatly improved because I'm up against people closer to my skill level. For my skill level, I'd say I'm just slightly above average (a couple "we rans", flawless in freelance, and previously about a 1.6 to 1.8 k/d depending on the meta) I understand the issues for top level players but can we really sacrifice the game experience of 90% of the population for the benefit of the top 10% just because they have the loudest voice (content creators)? The optional SBMM for all quick play modes may work out well but for the average player, I'd would bet money that you would see less success and more frustration in non SBMM
Making the experience better for the top 10% doesn't mean it will ruin it for the bottom 90%. It's not a simple two sided argument as there are a range of different skill levels, so ideally we are trying to please everybody, not just cater to one large group. Also keep in mind that the people at the very bottom of the skill ladder suffer from bad connections and long queue times with SBMM just as the people at the top do, because there are less people to match with. Honestly it's quite selfish to suggest that the system should stay as it is just because it's good for you, while still acknowledging that's it's been made worse for others. You may think it's hypocritical to say that considering the top players didn't want to move away from CBMM despite how worse players were constantly getting stomped, but let's remember that's a skill issue. Your skill to some degree is within your control as it's up to how often you practice, but things like connection are completely out of control of the player. There is no SBMM in real life, if you want to be good at something you must practice and improve, you can't just wait for bungie to roll out an SBMM patch for reality.
@@carlmwaamba9846 I see your point and that's where I agreed with TDT that SBMM could be made optional. And yes, I am being selfish in my belief that "the good of the 90% is more important than the good of the 10%" as I personally have benefited from the new system and prefer it over CBMM. That is just my opinion and I know its not 100% correct, nobody is. In the end, I really think there needs to be some combination if the two systems where the connections are smooth but the average player is still able to feel like they are a productive member of the team. That's much easier said than done but for now, I prefer crucible in its current state much more than the previous seasons since the release of Witch Queen. It is a near impossible task to make every single person happy so I would say to aim to make the most people happy as possible.
@@cmg_axe7973 I personally think the best way to make everyone happy is to have the largest possible player pool for SBMM to pick from. But in order to do that, there needs to be a reason for players to keep coming back to the mode. As it stands right now, the people who play the most the most are getting the worst experience, which is terrible for player retention and therefore bad for everyone.
You cant compare pve with pvp! First, a strike is always the same, nearly everybody can perfect his loadout, learn spawnpoints and will step by step master a strike or even a raid. In pvp each round is different, new players on your side, new opponents on the other, changing maps, other weapons and abilities etc. Its not i go 10 steps, fire a rocket, take cover, look at the champion … You don’t know what will happen and you have to react fast. Not everybody is able to do that. Also aim is much more important in a duel then in any pve situation. Second, pvp isn’t harder for good players! Your opponents are on the same level as you are, same goes for the 0.5 kd player, he also gets opponents on his level. So its as hard for him as it is for you. This is the reason for leagues in any sport i know. And sbmm is not the reason connections are bad, bad server are the reason and if we want that to change we shouldn’t talk about sbmm but about servers.
Destiny 2 uses peer to peer not servers for pvp. This is something the community has asked to change for years and bungie shows no sign of fixing. So the issue is connection not server. This is also how ddos attacks were done early on, whoever had host could see the IP and Mac address of everyone in the lobby and would ddos till they managed to kick the player they wanted or the whole other team.
Ngl u can learn spawn point and do everything you just said if your half competent enough to look at a radar. This statement from you gives off some serious negative kd energy
@@Lexstotle thats just not true, no one can prepare for pvp like its possible for pve, because there are so many more factors that change every game. my kd isnt negative but even if it were so, i wouldnt care. i dont play for a number to show of with, i play for fun and i have much more fun playing against gamers on my level, then below or above me.
@@wickedbird6921 You can definitely prepare for pvp. Using radar and “perfecting your loadout” is something that comes with time. As a “good” player people are extremely predictable to the point its like putting a Preschooler in a war game against a military officer.
Im going to be honest, when the anti-sbmm's entire point is "I want to play around, not sweat all the time," there is no way in good faith be on that side, because as a lower skilled player, I had to sweat beyond my capabilities Every. Single. Game. I'm sorry, if your entire thing is "it's getting too hard" I'm going to laugh in your face and tell you to meet me in rural australia, where every player teleports like they have a net-limiter, deaths around corners are more common than normal deaths, and every thing that should hit, doesn't because the person you were shooting at wasn't there
Loved the video and you touched on all the reasons I wanted skill based back (I’m an average pvp player) and so it’s been a pretty nice time in crucible for me.
The matchmaking system must have weights for skill, expected latency, and time spent waiting in queue. (If I were building such a system that's how it would work.) Hopefully they're tuning the skill factor downward week by week to get to a happier place. As a not very good PVP player, I'm enjoying facing off against players who are closer to my skill level, but based on everything I'm seeing from folks at the high end of the skill spectrum, they need to skill less into account when forming lobbies. I'd be sad if they eliminated skill as a factor entirely, they have a lot of room to tweak things in the meantime.
I love SBMM! I love playing the Competitive playlist every time I go into a social quickplay gamemode! I love having awful connection every game while playing against players as good as I am! Makes the gunfights and gameplay very enjoyable. Walls? Not important. Stable connection? Never heard of it. I’m top 0.8%. I used to play every day. Now I play once every week.
The ping requirement would have killed my ability to ever play and get into Destiny. Recall it's a game people play all over the WORLD, including places with poor internet infrastructure. Maybe a ping cutoff in that your ping can't be X amount higher than the average of the other team?
I cut this out of the rest of the video but this is a fair concern BUT let me ask you: is it fair if 5 other people are not having fun because of your poor internet? Its like the Trolley Problem, there isnt a correct answer but rather a shift from perspective to perspective
I remember back in forsaken when they implemented survival the matchmaking kinda had a "reset" I think. But I was motivated and grind a lot. Since the matchmaking stats reseted I didn't have any trouble getting win streaks. For the next 6 months I literally stopped playing pvp because the game forces you to have 50% win rate and the game though i was a god in pvp. I was put in games against complete sweats while still having to carry my blueberries. I don't like to give a easy fight so every pvp match(control and survival) I had to sweat hard in order to win. It was to much stressful. This is my little story of how sbmm literally removed my fun for months. Sorry for my bad English 😀
From what I have seen, either through content creator videos on UA-cam, and through the comment section of said videos, the majority of the points being made by the "skilled" players and Content creators is from their own personal stance of how it directly impacts them, their stats, and overall how it impacts their channels (i.e. Money). These individuals will attempt to sell you "magic beans" to present it under the ruse of being anti-elitist mindset, what they feel is best for the game, and not how SBMM can, will, or does show positive gains for the "average" Destiny player. As many of the comments have made it clear that PVP has actually been more enjoyable, and allowed players to achieve personal bests. I will say it has generated far more people leaving games, which I'm willing to bet are the same folks who feel their stats and their skill level is superior to others and not to be wasted in a throwaway game. I also assume these are the same folks who post videos of them murdering in control, but never help the team to cap or hold. It also saddens me to hear from these "skilled" players, who have made a hard stance on the crucible and the players within them. As they feel the players within them are not worth their best play and pvp needs to go back to the old format to allow them to "test builds" and not worry about someone beating them. Just imagine if athletes in real sports, took this approach and told people and their team, they were going to sandbag certain games, just so they can work on new moves. Imagine how those other players feel, knowing that Mr. Superstar feels they don't have to put forth any decent effort and the players are just here to act as a tune up for new moves ect. In short, a sparing partner who does not hit back... Just because a player is good, does not make them a leader. That is being made very evident with the SBMM topic. Map voting can be heavily abused and will promote stagnation in matches. You will only see people vote on maps that best suits their play style and loadouts. Maps you hate are there for a reason, because you can't dominate on them. Name disabling should also disable all stat tracking, weekly progress, protentional catalyst drops, and achievements. Additionally, the numbers you earn from crucible while your name is disabled, will not be applied to your account, overall K/D ratio, win/loss ratio, and weapon progression. It would allow you and like-minded folks to play in the crucible, and not worry about being in a stressful environment and test out new builds. Sadly, disabling the name also comes with heavy risks such as griefing. For instance, we saw players on the same team during Iron Banner, run the spark back to their own base, just so the enemy team could kill them and score instantly. As for rewarding pre-made teams, this sounds like a good idea, but only on paper and only to well established teams. It won't promote incentive for new teams to be established, since the present teams would be farming solo players and players who lack the resources the big name guilds and content creators already have. It simply keeps the rich richer, while telling solo players to pound sand. I'm all for even playing field, but what has been suggested or hinted at, only favors the already established. It would allow for the alleged skilled players to take advantage of the system and go back to farming either new players, casuals, or average players. Remember, the people who are upset about SBMM, are not doing so because they are worried for the lowly solo player, they are concerned because it impacts their own K/D ratio they tout. For some, they make real money off that ratio.
Off-topic, but I got a neat exotic idea: ***Whitewolf Fang*** *"There is no hunter more dangerous than a wolf in winter." -Saladin, maybe.* Element: stasis Ammo type: *primary* Magazine: 3 30 rpm glaive (3-tap to the body, 2 to the head) Exotic perk one: Winter's strike - gain shield energy with melee striks, both firing modes are capable of precision damage, melee or primary fire immediately shatter frozen combatants(note: in crucible this is a one-shot). Shattering a foe instantly refills the magazine. Exotic perk two: Endless Blizzard - using alt-fire uses shield energy to charge a 4th shot into the magazine, this 4th shot has weak tracking and freezes targets on headshots, slows targets on body shots, and impacts with terrain will create a witherhord-like puddle of stasis energy for 3 seconds, slowing combatants that pass through it until they freeze, exit the afflicted area, or the duration expires. Catalyst perk: Lingering Frostbite - increases stacks of slow effect applied as well as the duration of the stasis pool created by alt fire to 5 seconds, and targets wondering through stasis pools continue to gain slowness for a short duration after the initial affliction. (!)shield only grants 30% DR as opposed to special ammo glaives 75%
My take: While it does force a bit more sweat, the simple fact that you're matching with people closer to you in skill means you are able to learn and improve, leading to more fun games. If you're a 2.0 KD player matching with .5KD players, you're not learning anything, and neither are they.
@@Sam-yr8ls No you are factually untrue.Sbmm make people who want to improve be able to improve at the game as you start to put your time and learn you will start to become a mediocre player instead of a noob.Then you can be able to dominate your lobbies until you start to face off with other mediocre players.Then as you put time and match with higher end of mediocre players you start to learn from your mistakes and start to be able match them.Then with time you become a medium of what a normal player becomes.This constant improvement will make you better with time as the times goes on.If you face off against players that 5-6 tiers higher than you and you get absolute stomped then you can't be able to analize your mistakes because you becoming a shit stain on the ground happens so fast that you can't be able to react to it and no,I consistantly be able to reach out to legend tier on glory rank and Im not a noob.Im just looking things in a sensual way instead of crying like big fucking baby.
at the end of every season, a new glory playlist opens up: Forged Glory. Each week will feature a new 6v6 game mode, with map voting (no matchmaking) week 1: rift week 2: control week 3: clash week 4: new 6v6 survival mode week 5: supremacy week 6: 6v6 breakthrough week 7: randomized modes between the six, with map and mode voting. each week can have different modifiers to encourage different builds: examples week 1: (Mayhem) (Arc dmg+/solar dmg -) (+mobility) week 2: (momentum) (-ability regen) (increased power ammo frequency) you get the idea.. week seven would also randomize these modifiers per match. drops grandmaster level rewards but tuned to accommodate shorter activity completion
I agree with your solutions. They address a lot of issues within pvp and they offer the player more choice to customize their experience. The ability granted by allowing the player to choose their pursuit which gives the player more agency.
I like the idea of a connection quality floor, as you proposed. No one in the lobby ought to have an unplayable connection. There must be some minimal SBMM in the game, though, in the sense that it is _not_ reasonable or fun to have you or Wallah fight a New Light or my grandpa who has no thumbs. It's interesting that we always talk about high skill players having a very small pool, long queue times, and laggy matches - but that is actually also true for the extreme LOW end of the skill curve. The current implementation of SBMM will harm outliers on both end of that curve.
While this is technically true, it doesnt really work that way in d2. The best i can explain this, if the playerbase was divided into ranks (like a standard ELO system), over 62% of players are considered silved in D2. About 11% are bornze (with only 0.6% being bronze 1, the lowest skill.) Comparing this to the other side of the spectrum, 0.056% of players are top 500 with ~0.5% being diamond rank. As you can see, this means that for those top end players there is a very limited pool of people to match into even when compared to the lowest end players. If you want to see where i got the % from, i used destiny tracker as bungie doesnt have an elo system or equivalent that players can actually see and use (this uses its own ranking but is fairly accurate) and only has a "combat rating" which has never been explained fully.
@@antarescypher2551 No, this is exactly what I mean. With your numbers, the Bronze 1 and Diamond players both face a similar matchmaking conundrum - low skill and high skill respectively. Assuming, of course, that Bungie doesn't change SBMM depending on your place in the curve.
We do know from the recent TWAB that "skill" on Bungie's end is a normal distribution - and apparently ELO from destinytracker is doing a good job approximating that.
The problem is the seperation of skill between brackets. Matching a Bronze 1 into a Bronze 2 is fine (and happens alot). Matching a top 500 or Legend player into a Diamond results in a complete stomp. Bungie knows this, so while low skill players get nice quick matches the top end get 15+ minute queue times into lagfest games.
As a someone who is on the lower end of the spectrum (0.6 k/d or something around it) i have to say it's quite refreshing to play in a lobby where people are on similiar skill level to me, but sadly i can't play much cuz my connection ain't that good, so rutabuga goes brrrrrrr, but yea, when i do have a moment i can finally enjoy crucible, instead of getting frustrated cuz that one guy or even entire enemy team completely runs over me and my team mates. I think SBMM was a good idea in overall, just the execution of the queueing on the upper of the spectrum has things that could've been done better, but yea, it makes you feel better because you can actually give it your best against others like you who do the same, instead of getting frustrated, not even talking about the feeling of being the worse one because that one guy keeps fragging like crazy and has like 3 times your k/d ratio
What I don't get with the suggestion of adding 2 different playlists, one with SBMM and the other with CBMM is that; wouldn't the more sweaty players lean toward playing the CBMM playlist while the average player would lean toward playing the SBMM playlist? In that situation, wouldn't the point of higher skilled players wanting to a more casual experience (less sweaty loadouts all the time) be rendered moot as most of the people in that playlist would also be around their skill level, that being on the higher end of the bell curve? All while the average players stick to the SBMM playlist, making the split in the two playlists kind of pointless except for splitting the playerbase. For higher skilled players in this situation, both playlists would be sweaty for them either way.
Exactly! So the root issue is not only the matchmaking itself but haw players interact with it and how it makes us feels. Sweats complaining about sweaty matches tells me that the fun is not derived just from being good the game and beating other players, but a larger, maybe majority, chunk of the fun for a skilled player is being able to reaffirm your skill against low-skilled players. That would be true for ALL sweats complaining about their matches being more competitive. I don't what that might mean in terms of why do good players so badly want to be to punch a down of lower skill players. I think it is spitefulness and toxic "git gud" culture. Because when these players were bad, they weren't given a separate matchmaking pool just so they can have fun, no ,they thrown out the frying pan into to the fire. They were fed to the sharks and had to deal with getting stomped, teabagging, and receiving hate mail because you KDA was still a .7 still mercy ruling the other team. No empathy or compassion was laid out to them, So we can not expect that out of them.
Bungie should first drop the whole P2P thing and switch ton full time dedicated servers and THEN implement sbmm into the game or they can do what Epic Games did with Gears 3 and keep the low skill players in sbmm matchmaking and once they hit a certain skill threshold they get released into regular mm with everyone else
Hot take: SBMM is only a problem for "content creators" that seek to frag their tits against lower skilled players (like me). If i want to play a pvp battle, i want the fight to be fair, i don't want it to be a walk in the park, nor do i want to have my b-hole explanded by a sweatlord
From the perspective of a PVE player, I just go into crucible for the pinnacles/rank 16 loot and never touch it ever again. SBMM will probably make me less of a punching bag for people's killstreak (I have god awful K/D, think under 1.0), and make crucible slightly more tolerable. Will it make me play crucible more? Maybe, but I think I will still drop playing crucible once SBMM matches me with the next "tier" of players that I cannot handle. But from another perspective, since I don't play crucible much, the changes might not even affect me as much as the PVP players. I avoid it like the plague, hence I only experience the torture of getting rekt only once a week or near the end of the season. Besides if SBMM significantly increases matchmaking time, then I cannot quickly match, get destroyed and get my match completions quickly, and move on to other activities in a objective sense haha. I feel that it might not be totally worth for Bungie to pander to lower skill levels. I like the idea of being able to select between connection based MM and SBMM, it lets me, a noob, pick my poison. However, it then creates two pools of players which desire different things. The less skilled players will favour SBMM where they actually stand a chance which results in CBMM being filtered for only pro players. Effectively, the choice of picking between CBMM and SBMM is useless for more pro players as there is a lower chance to match lower level players in CBMM, and they are unable to queue with weaker players in SBMM. The choice system only affects lower skilled players then, which I reckon will lead to outrage from the sweaty players of the PVP community. Selecting / voting for maps is a good thing too, as I can get to practice on certain maps that I am unfamiliar with, hence improving my skill level.
I’m one of those .0x KD people. Since SBMM I’ve spent more time in Control this week than in past 3 yrs of D2. It is a game changer for those that WANT to get into PVP but are clueless. The gameplay is slower, I can see my mistakes because I get to play more than 2 sec before getting stomped and farmed. At my level everyone is 💩 and hopefully we can get better. Sucks to be a PVP main, Bungie needs to find something for both high and low skill that doesn’t nerf the good guys base on their skill and hard work they have put into getting good. Other benefits to the low skill SBMM 1) I can try out different subclasses and weapons without huge penalties, @TDT I’ve been trying BLINK 😳I never would have that chance in regular PVP and experience the play style 2) I might even get some of those freaking catalysts done that require 50 kills (not in my lifetime). Anyway. I have been having a lot more fun spending hours in Crucible vs 3 games. I’m still at the bottom of the roster but it is much more enjoyable. Hope they fix it for the top echelon
Sbmm is for high end comp not the “regular” playlists some team balancing is fine but otherwise it seems rather dumb for a game like destiny to have sbmm. in general tho I agree with trials having it because trials is about that perfection in combat. but not iron banner in opinion iron banner is about the struggle to be a wolf amongst sheep that’s why I also disliked the removal of light diff.
I believe personally that option 1 is better because I hate needing to always sweat my bum of 24-7 and I agree completely with you, keep up the good work btw
You’re the ONLY popular streamer at this time to take a balanced approach, and I appreciate it as well as offering suggestions. Agree with making SBMM optional.
7:40 the problem with your first suggestion (to have an SBMM mode as an optional toggle) is that most games already do that. Games like Overwatch have a "ranked mode" and a "quickplay mode". The quickplay mode is often unplayable. its filled with people goofing around, disconnecting randomly, and generally theres no semblance of a real game there. Most players end up treating ranked mode as the go-to just because theres some chance the game will be normal.
"Forced to sweat"? You mean that thing you're doing anyway, but against low-skilled players to look cool? It doesn't matter if you're using off-meta weapons when you have the map knowledge, rotational skill, call-outs, and general movement/aim that comes with being a strong player. The only thing you're doing to hold yourself back is using a weapon that takes one more bullet to kill than usual. You still move, shoot, and peek like a skilled player -- you're just not getting punished for bringing weak gear nearly as often. You'll have to excuse me if I have no sympathy that you can't abuse bad players for your own personal enjoyment. As to your "just use loot incentive for skill-based" fix, you know and I know that doesn't work and doesn't solve whatever problem you're claiming it solves. People get that loot and where do they use it? In the "chill pvp" playlist to stomp mudholes in players who are still trying to figure out that they can use both control sticks at the same time. We saw this with Mountaintop, we saw this with Luna's Howl/Not Forgotten, and we'd see it with any loot deemed valuable enough to sweat for. And what happens when the "chill pvp" mode is invaded by sweaty players with overpowered gear who want to go on a 100 kill streak to pad their stats? Everyone else quits and you're back to complaining about "sweating" in a "chill pvp" mode. You know, the thing that was happening before Loose SBMM was implemented. You "top tier" players are like a broken record and you can't see what's happening to players who aren't trying to climb your ivory towers. EDIT: And just as a point of order, the connections problem is inherent in Destiny because Bungie refuses to set up centralized servers or region-lock the game, forcing players to connect their PC to someone else across the world with their P2P system that only exists to save them money. They refuse to budge on this issue so "the connections suck for me!" falls on its face as they suck for everyone by design.
I'll give you another version of the "streamer mode". Have it so that players tags aren't visible. Replace the tags with Red 1-6 and Blue1-6, with the exception of teammates being able to see each other's tags.
My main problem with SBMM is that I'm not really able to play with my friends casually since they would get steamrolled by the lobbies that I go into, and similarly I can't really play crucible with one of my closest friends since his lobbies would demolish me. So every time I play crucible I just go in alone for the best results, and even then it seems like the teams are still unbalanced. I do love the ideas that you brought up, being able to choose you maps and having a more rewarding SBMM game mode especially.
I want to elaborate, basically i like to play crucible with my friends and chill but I can't do that anymore since we are at different levels of skill, and so if my friends want to have fun in crucible they need to go without me for the best results. I dont play crucible to steamroll on new players, i just want to have fun in it with my friends, which isnt very possible anymore.
In my opinion, warface has done the matchmaking system quite well: their server is divided into 2 group, newcomer and normal. people will start and play in the newcomer until their level has rose enough, then they will be placed in the normal server.
There is one thing about SBMM though I absolutely love. I'm way above average for PVP and it makes me feel great when I constantly match PRML guys like Frost or ZK and still top leaderboards with them or against them.
I'm about as casual a player as you can be. I play Control a couple of times a week just for fun with off-meta builds because I couldn't care less about the meta. Before this season my best KD was 0.6 or so. Since this season started my KD has instantly shot up to 1.3 and it's consistently improving the more I play. I finally feel like I'm one among equals and not just a stepping stone. I finally have a chance in matches.
As someone who plays crucible by myself usually, I personally would like a Freelance mode for Control. (The more “casual” modes like Mayhem and Team Scorched don’t need it.) As for your proposal regarding a sbmm to be an option, it might be beneficial to recycle the Glory rank (which is getting a rework soon) and create a sort of a “ranked” control. Think like in Rainbow Six Siege (a very sweaty PvP game, but hear me out): we have Quick Match (“causal”) and Ranked.
From the perspective of a lower skilled player, sbmm is a godsend. I spend a lot of my time being stomped and slowly worked up to getting a positive kd, but my average was 0.89. I don’t want to be matched with players who one shot me from thin air. Because I can’t learn from it. With sbmm (I’m suddenly in an auto rifle meta) duels are slower. Suddenly I have time to back out. To recognize I pushed when I shouldn’t have. To see my positioning was off. To learn from it. And eventually become a good player. While I recognize for top players the game becomes harder, their idea of a relaxed match means stomping a lobby. Which isn’t fun for the people being stomped. Matching people closer in skill means the stomped get a fair fight, but so does the high skilled player. Which means he’ll have to work for it instead of getting east kills. Both interests are opposite to each other. For someone to win, someone has to lose. I think for most of the community sbmm is an improvement, or doesn’t change a lot. It’s worse for the top players. But… sbmm will make pvp more attractive for new players and bad players. It can be a learning environment and then go on to comp or trials. Leading to a more healthy pvp playerbase. Now comp and trials need work, maybe a tier system with tier X in comp being s requirement to enter trials. Rewards need work. Maybe we need work on some game modes that can be casual and fun despite wildly different skill levels. But all in all.. being being stomped less is an improvement in my book.
I've wanted a Fun playlist Comp playlist for a while. We have one on paper, but if they are both skill based matchmaking they are only labeled that for how they play rather than who is playing them. They might as well change it to say Survival rather than Competitive, because the game modes and rep are the only thing separating them. Everyone is running their sweatiest loadout all the time and sometimes i just want to try out a weapon in pvp without feeling like i'm going to never get a bullet out of my gun unless i'm using my fusion rifle
My main gripe ties into what TDT said, that creativity, and experimentation with off meta builds. Yes I am a trials player who gilds flawless and unbroken and will do so for iron lord. That skill is not communicable with quickplay, where I basically only go to use dumb stuff, like rat king and devil's ruin. The games thinks I am a top x% player when I am playing way outside my comfort zone when I want to have fun. This is a looter shooter MMO with a HUUUUGE amount of customization and skillbased is basically saying "nah don't do that. You should be playing at your skill level no matter where you go" I know some people who say "just go to the casual/party modes like momentum control/mayhem" but those are completely different modes with no semblance of the playstyle found in "normal modes". I'm all for SB to exist in some modes, hell it's existed in comp for a long time... but no one plays comp. Why? I don't know, is the prospect of losing visible number (glory) so much as to scare those players away?
Liked your video. Great points. I am for SBMM so the matches are more challenging, so more fun. The only two downsides I have experienced is the wait times for a match. At the start of the season, matches were instant. Now that I've played for a week, it takes anywhere from 5 to 10 mins for a match. It also gets to a point where you vs the same people over and over. It isn't bad but just makes some matches repetitive. Cheers once again for the video.
I fully agree that players should have the choice to enter skill based and connection based matchmaking. the only thing I want to note (which will probably be a given for most people) is that the option should be easily available for those less experienced players. some people I play with who generally avoided crucible before the sbmm was introduced, have benefitted greatly from getting put against other learning players, and it has been lots of fun to watch them get more into the pvp side of the game! but they're still so confused when they get stomped in games that don't have sbmm, or in games where the lag from lack of cbmm ruins the match. that said, I understand that both forms of matchmaking have pro's and cons and hope to see some good changes for learning and casual players as well as the more competitive players in future crucible updates!
I'm not really sure which side I'm in, if I'm only on one in the first place, but the thing I can absolutely agree on is that PvP NEEDS incentive to play. Despite being a average skill player, I exclusively play PvP when a challenge or quest forces me to, because I'm not getting enough rewards to make the lack of fun I'm having worth it. Reward incentive which scales with 'difficulty' and even how well a player does in a lobby would, at least for most, warm people up to the idea of getting better at the game.
Just for context I am typically in a high skill bracket in most games. (diamond in siege, immortal in val, a 13kd in tarkov, in destiny 1 I was top 700 in NA for trials, and in destiny 2 2.11 Kd overall.) That being said I think some lose version of Sbmm has always been in the game. Even since D1 I remember watching a MR. Fruit vid where he player on Rob's account where Rob basically tanked his stats and it was hilarious to see the people he played against . I think we need so new player protections which I imagine exist already. My biggest problems with SBMM for the majority of players are; 1) If you have friends of large skill distributions it ruins the game for everyone. I have friends that I know IRL who have .65 kds and I love playing with them. But when it's crucible time they don't want to play with me unless it's mayhem. They get stomped I have to sweat to even stand a chance. 2) This maybe a much larger deal than number 1. The sense of personal progression as a player. When you play RANKED in most games you do a few placements, in casual play they typically don't. In ranked you get so see your ranks rise as you get better. You typically always place in the middle ground of ranks then rise to your plateau, where things become harder and you basically decide if you want to grow as a player. If you don't you stay at your plateau, if you do you get better learn new strats, builds, placement, aim train, and all of the other things that go along with that. The problem with always matching based on skill and never seeing your self ascend ranks is you don't see or feel the growth. You feel stagnant, even though you got better, even though your aim is crisper, even though you can carry a lobby. YOU STILL LOSE. You feel bad like you didn't get better. I think to me that's the most brutal part of SBMM, the feeling of wasted energy; on a game mode that's not supposed to be ranked!
Halo Reach Matchmaking - Skill Based - Connection - Mixed Best in my experience. Map voting is also VERY cool. Edit: my general K/D is 1.3, highest being 1.5; I play on console, and I before SBMM I matched against 3.0 all. The. Time. In Control, in Trials, in Survival. And it just... It makes me tired, man. I'll use metas and off metas depending on my mood, and it just sucks when I get pinned in spawn to be farmed for some stats. I've had a good experience so far with SBMM, though some connection issues, I will admit.
Listen to the video earlier, and at the time of the whole SB/CB change and dilemma first go around. I recall seeing many people(myself included) suggest function solutions to it as (and hindsight shows) it was coming off as one extreme or another. A few had suggested to shift sbmm to be broader in player selection skill with heavier focus in connection speeds. Overall, Destiny 2 as a whole lack a whole lot of functions (it starting on console is not longer or ever has been an excuse) to not have them. One function I recall was being able to see specific or generally someone’s ping or quality of connectivity. Useful to really show who’s gonna be having an issue (personal or otherwise). But overall that’s always has been an issue with destiny as a whole, the lack of displays or visible information.
I have to say I like your proposed fixes, especially the map voting, which I would love to see in the game, but theres one thing I can’t particularly agree on. Incentivizing stack through more/better loot. Depending on how it is scaled I could see it easily being taken advantage of, while also leaving solo players at a disadvantage, if you don’t have a regular group to stack with or don’t want to take chances with lfg. Now I know you shouldn’t really argue against something if you can’t offer a better alternative instead, but as a -more often than not- solo player I just wanted to have put that concern out there so others might consider it as well and maybe someone else finds another solution that would still be incentivizing.
My largest complaint with sbmm is that it didn't have to be implemented in the most played casual Playlist the game has right away. This is what crucible labs was meant to be for. Alot of the issue could have been avoided if they said 'hey we want sbmm in the game again. However we want to find a good balance in connection and skill for matchmaking. With that in mind next season you will see a second icon for control when you load into the crucible called control labs. We will be gathering info on how our matchmaking is preforming as well as gathering player input to try to find a balance for the system before it goes live for all playlists in the following season.' I understand the issue of well with labs they wouldn't get as much input. However that's why they would need to specify that there'd be one season of labs before it goes live. With this in mind the people hurt the most by sbmm. That top 15-20% of the player base would have been there. They would have been testing. Cause they don't want the casual Playlist to feel like a perpetual flawless game. Bungie would have gotten the info where it has the most consequences. The end of the skill gap. Edit: grammer
So I've recently made the switch go my "sweaty" game to fighting games and it made me realize something, skill based matchmaking is a GOOD THING if applied correctly, however in d2 there is no reason to actually go play the "sweaty" mode so it bleeds into casuals that much more so you're standard try hard running the most meta thing is going to be in casuals trying to go as hard as possible instead of chasing the carrot in a proper competitive mode where he gets toys to flex. It's a good thing to want to sweat in a game, it's proof that you want to get better, but destiny doesn't have that for pvp anymore thats worth a damn so they have nowhere to go but casuals and pubstomp
Perspective: I play Trials for fun and I am also bad, being I've only been flawless once and that's because I got a carry. By myself I've gotten maybe 4 wins in a row at best. I have good days and bad days, bad days more often than good for sure. It might be my history of playing fighting games like Street Fighter that motivates me to just want to get better for being better's sake because fighting games are modeled very much on the SBMM side of things for online play. I am overall for SBMM from the perspective you mentioned being that it's the best way to get better at the game by making the challenge more gradual. As far as the motivation issue being the lack of rewards, your solution of making it optional at face value IMO doesn't work because that splits up the matchmaking even farther. This means that those highly skilled players wanting to play some sweaty matches with SBMM will have to wait even longer for games because players they'd be matched up with normally might not be choosing to play SBMM. My solution to this would be to take something that's been in fighting games and apply it here: a more distinct ranked mode that is always available. I feel like Destiny always wants to make an event out of everything, with Trials and Iron Banner being among them by only having them available for certain periods of time. We need something better than just Survival for gaining glory points. In a game like Street Fighter, when you play ranked online you win and rank up from bronze, silver, gold, etc. That rank determines who you get matched with in ranked mode and is visible to everyone so they know what rank you are. It would need to be applied to a dedicated mode like Survival or Elimination, or maybe even make Trials permanently available. Either way, having a rank in itself IMO would feel like a reward, as well as being a separate playlist allowing for Bungie to add better rewards in general would do well I bet.
I completely and totally agree with you here TDT. I’ve always thought skill based was important and it’s a fundamental mechanic in the most popular shooters on the market. But what the games that have SBMM backlash lack is a benefit for being in the highest tiers. Great points and good video.
comparing strikes to crucible makes very little sense and is a false equivalency, generally because your analogy is from your perspective there. a lower skill player will be running essentially "grandmaster" by what you said. and they would be running it from match one. I'm not disagreeing with your suggestions, I like a bunch of them, though the first one, I believe would just result in SBMM anyways, mostly because the only people who dislike SBMM currently are those in higher tiers, which would just make us wind up with SBMM lite, where top players aren't running SBMM, but only match with other top players, because no-one wants to get stomped by streamers. I would bet that SBMM heavy modes like the ones you're suggesting, would be populated by mostly newer players, or lower skilled players. and if SBMM could be toggled, (which I get wasn't the argument, but would be the easiest way to do this, as they basically already have rotating non-SBMM playlists. [you were playing rift in the video, which apparently doesn't have SBMM for some reason]) you want a reason to choose SBMM for streamers and top players, because you want it to be a choice. however, given the choice between them, a mid to low skill player would just choose SBMM. what you're asking for here, is incentive for the top 1% of players to not engage with lobbies they're just stomping. (of course there's connection issues, and ping and stuff, long wait times and the like. which makes your want a little more valid the connection and matchmaking could be fixed by expanding the top SBMM pools a little further down however) I do understand that it isn't as good for making vids, or cool clips if you have to fight for your life against people who don't aim at walls instead of at your team. as someone who is decent at the game. [not god-tier, 90% of my kills come from build synergy] I understand how SBMM can make it harder to enjoy the builds you love to make as well, however.... addressing the build diversity point, I do understand that it's hard to have fun testing new builds if you're getting slammed every match. but for everyone under the top 10% of crucible players, that is just the norm without SBMM. I'm not gonna test out a cool offmeta build if I get obliterated even when I run the meta. when you're having to fight hard every match on equal footing (SBMM) it stops build diversity. that's the point you made. now, imagine how little build diversity you get if every match, you're getting stomped. if you're not even fighting on equal footing. your build diversity, your creativity, is a fight to survive, that will inevitably lead most players to the meta, or some boring bug or busted ability. by the anti-SBMM's own argument, not having SBMM actively kills build diversity for the rest of the playerbase. I think a better solution than toggle or specific playlist SBMM, is simply to widen the top pool a little bit, to allow for some more competent players who are of slightly lower skill. Crucible should have better rewards in glory mode, but that's just a general thing. in conclusion, The main issues facing high level SBMM are bad connection, and long wait time. removing or inhibiting SBMM is any major way in the name of build diversity for the top 1% would actively hamper the build diversity of the other 99%. The only way for everyone to reach a decent conclusion is to simply minorly expand the top pool, to allow for more players to enter it. thus allowing for more build diversity and less wait time, without affecting the majority of the casual playerbase. all in all though, map voting sounds great, and I like a lot of your suggestions. (especially streamer mode, great idea there) (also, about the beginning statement, I just really don't like PvE and PvP equivalency arguments in general, kind of a pet peeve. mostly brought on from that one time I posted a bungie suggestion on DTG to let solo players into trials saying it would revitalize the playlist {it did, by the way, still gloating about that one}, and got berated by hundreds of dickheads comparing trials to a raid. just.... kind of a sore spot.)
from my experience this game never felt like it was connection based, as for sbmm a loose one could be good but there is the huge problem of all the imbalances of this game, it's not a few things its almost everything and make it hard to separate the skill pools for these games, characters class to the tiniest details in maps can make thing so one side even amoung player of the exact same skill
Crucible after SBMM has been so fun. I am finally trading blows again, and having matches where I do decent. Crucible doesnt feel like a chore anymore, im playing it for fun again
In muy opinion the optional sbmm would be awsome but not as a kind of game mode but as a feature that you could turn on or off in any game mode, not necessarily tied to better rewards but just for those who want a challenge against others at the same level for the sake of it or for people like me who can't play more than a few matches a week (even less when I'm busy) and are surely at the top 10% of worst players :( Despite that I Ve been playing destiny since the taken king I just feel like every single match is a grandmaster nightfall following the TDT's analogy, so I hope Bungie does the best for the vast majority of us players.
I started as a complete scrub in Season of Arrivals, and worked my way to being what I'd say is a "decent" player; around a season or two since Beyond Light, I end seasons around the 2.0 KDA mark (emphasis on the A, since I prefer being supportive, holding lanes, etc.). I also am from Asia, so whatever opinions I have might be heavily affected by the matchmaking experience here (gaming culture differs wildly from my experience between East and West). I think it's worth noting that most games with any sort of PvP, particularly MOBAs, have SBMM across the board; the degree to which SBMM is applied, however, varies whether you're playing ranked (strict SBMM) and casual (loose SBMM). While Bungie said that they're implementing loose SBMM, from my experience, it has been hit or miss; it's fine (in my context) to get matched with a lobby of people whose KDAs average around 1.75-2.25. Any wider than that range, and you start seeing stomps. I think this is why for MOBAs, even "loose" matchmaking tends to have a clear upper limit as to who you get matched with; strict matchmaking just ramps up that limit. At this moment, I've seen games where most people on a team are at 1.5 or so KDA, while the other team has low 1 KDAs but got carried by a pair of 4.0KDAs. That said, I'm still all for SBMM, but particularly for one reason: cheaters. In the West, this is a less prevalent issue, but in Asia, cheating is horrendous. SBMM can help weed that out (more so than anti-cheat software) mainly because cheaters tend to climb KDA ranks higher; the more they play, it can be assumed, the more likely they'll start getting lumped together in the same lobbies. In a way, since Battleye is just straight up next to useless, at least having cheaters be more likely to match with fellow cheaters through SBMM would be a boon at the end. I believe in SBMM mainly because of that, but also because I like improving; I like learning what my limits are (i.e. at what KDA level do I start being out of depth), as well as what my skill floor is (i.e. at what KDA do I just stomp way more than usual), and working on both of those. To me, that's impossible if you keep getting matched with players wildly worse or better than you; you can't learn from people you don't need to exert any effort at all to beat, in the same way you can't learn from people who are so good that they're on a different plane of existence when viewed through someone of your skill level. Great video though, certainly more constructive than most of the "SBMM bad because long queue and I don't want to sweat and whatever" reasoning I hear from people who are more reserved about SBMM.
Good dialogue. Thanks. I understand the points of high level players problems - smaller Lobby, wait times, not being able to experiment and be creative, lag… etc. The issue for me is that I’ve heard high skill players complain about sweaty lobbies and just wanting to relax and enjoy off meta. However…. As a lower skilled player…. Everything is sweaty for us. LeBron doesn’t roll into jr high school games because the NBA was getting too sweaty and then posts his 180 point game on UA-cam ** I see some content guys posting their 34 KD games from control. I’ve also heard more skilled players tell lower skilled complainers to just get better. So…. Wouldn’t that same message apply to them, if they feel like they want to try out non- meta load outs ?? I see both sides but I’m definitely leaning to what would help me- SBMM. I don’t want a 4.5 KD player wrecking me every time I spawn. Just like a 5’6 jr high basketball player doesn’t want LeBron’s balls mashed in his face as dunks on him.
I will be enacting the forbidden yt technique called the Pin of Shame. Please chose your words carefully, lets try to actually be helpful to bungie and each other.
He pinned himsef
He pinned himsef
Great idea, you are the most respectful UA-camr / D2 CC
@@martik0121 true
I think having SBMM as a toggleable on/off button will just make a pool of hardcore players, because they are the population that wants the feature gone the most. I think making glory 6s would be better, but find a way to target it to newer players as well, then you can loosen SBMM even more or even remove it from the main playlists.
SBMM is also a new player onboarding issue. If you're brand new to the game, you should not be playing against 5 times gilded Flawless players.
Player onboarding/new player retention is currently the biggest problem Destiny 2 faces.
That and the player burnout rate. Everyone I know including myself quit the game entirely because it was bad for our mental health.
@@kieronmckay4276 Man, D2 players don't know how to chill. The number of players I've conversed with who no life this game to unhealthy levels is insane. And I dont know why! Even at its worst d2 fomo is nothing like what other mmos have, hell other shooters (warzone moment) yet we're some how magnetized to grinding this game on stop. It's something in our culture, thats the only reason I cam muster lmao
Why not though? Pvp should be completely random. You could be the best player in the lobby one match and you could be the worst.
@@Furiouspenguin27 how many games, of them getting stomped, do you think it takes before most become frustrated a quit pvp entirely? I'm betting it's single digits. It is nearly impossible for new players to win, since they lack load outs, mods, map knowledge, etc. Forcing them to drop into lobbies with people who have put not just hundred of hours but thousands, is cruel to an extreme and a sure fire way to drive off all but the most masochistic of us.
@@paladingaming3192 I’d disagree with you, while weapons and mods do help, I’ve never ran mod specific loadouts and do fine. I’ve also gone in with blue weapons and done just fine.
While I get some of you want to cater the entire game specifically to a brand new player and ignore what the serious/long term players ask for, pvp from halo on up has always been the best with no or extremely limited SBMM. SBMM in non comp game types has always been a shot in the foot, and ruins the longevity of the people who ACTUALLY play the type
I'm a lower-skilled player, and after struggling through a bunch of Mayhem matches to get the 50 super kills seasonal triumph, I finally queued into Control to see how SBMM would affect my experience.
I had the most fun I ever had in Crucible. I was upper-middle ranked for two matches, and top killer on my team for the third. On one match, there was a player who I ended up trading evenly over multiple 1v1 engagements ( I think over 10 or 11 we had that match, they won 60%, I won 40%, but it felt pretty even). Did these matches feel sweaty? Not nearly as sweaty as 99% of my previous Control matches under pure connection-based matchmaking, where I generally went from .5 to .75 k/d depending on how badly outclassed I was.
Before that experience, I was absolutely a "three and done" player. With perhaps more if I was trying for specific quest steps (exotic or catalyst). Now? I'll be happily queuing into Control more often if this experience persists.
Same
Exactly the same experience!
I have a 1.4 k/D and my matches have felt a bit better overall
True that brother, its way more enjoyable and the stakes feel lower
Getting the ornament for this seasons pinacle weapon for crucible will be with excitement
Hearing shaxx scream DELIGHTFULL encourages to continue
Just you wait until you get put into some higher skill brackets once your stats improve…oh just you wait…
Quick correction: cod devs said they implemented sbmm since 2007, this is technically not true. What they had in earlier cods was connection based matchmaking, followed by lobby balancing, which the devs mistakenly referred to as sbmm. In other words, connection would be used to find the best lobby for you, then the game would balance the teams for some semblance of fairness. This is lobby balancing, not sbmm. Lobby balancing is not the same as sbmm because sbmm affects the lobbies you get put into while lobby balancing only takes effect after a lobby has been formed (which can be done by either skill based matchmaking or connection based matchmaking). Just wanted to clarify this since older cods most definitely did not have sbmm in the sense that most people think of it today. And even if they did have sbmm which I doubt, it was an incredibly loose sbmm, to where most people did not even realize that it was there. Keep in mind that that’s what bungie promised us, loose sbmm. Regardless of which side of the debate you fall on, it’s clear that the sbmm isn’t loose.
I was confused when he said that
Thanks for the explanation
Ah yes you would know how their servers work better than the devs
Armchair dev much?
@@gumball6445 i you played an older cod, like BO2, you would know that this guy is right
@@edullfranz except he’s not, my m8 had like a .40kd in mw2 and bo1…used to join his lobbies all the time because they where the easiest lobbies I’ve ever seen in my life.
Well said, my main complaints with sbmm are the poor connection, horrid lobby balancing, and longer matchmaking times. To clarify I don’t mind waiting longer for a good match, but waiting three times as long only to play against laggy enemies with skill ratings stacked against me is a bit ridiculous. For context of the skill bracket I’m referring to, I was a top 2-3% player in the past but I don’t play as often anymore so I’m probably only 8-12% at this point.
I'm gonna be honest, this is both as much of a server issue as it is the players fault. People don't even go wired and then want a good connection experience
@@anormalhumanhopefully8570 lol people play without a wired connection and still complain 😬. Oof is all I can say
@@anormalhumanhopefully8570 Im wired and I play with people with horrible like, lagging across maps horrible connection players. I even played without wired and there were enemies like that. I legit got off the game cause it was so bad
Cross off the laggy and long times and for me nothing has changed from Sbmm and peer to peer
@@ShynLamo True, lobby balancing was also an issue with cbmm, but sbmm really exacerbates the team balancing problems.
My only complaint when it comes to sbmm is if I drop a 20 bomb consistently I'll get paired against other people who do however the vast majority of my team will then only drop a few kills per match. I've had one match where half my team ended a match of control with a combined 6 kills and the lowest member of the enemy had 11. That and the people quitting a match after dying twice.
Well you were versing people who were worse then you, of course you'd get more kills, it's only fair that you get paired with others who can actually challenge you
@@LeoZephra did you not understand the bottom half of the paragraph?
That should start to get smoothed out over time with a SBMM system. You will start to move upward in the skill curve and get matched with people closer to you. It doesn’t mean you’ll never match with players like that again, I mean that is possible depending on where your skill actually places you. But it should make it less common with less as many players.
Also keep in mind with where you could be at it isn’t uncommon for a person to have a bad match and be lucky to get 11. Then have a better match on the next one and get 19 kills. Maybe they’re trying to get specific bounties/challenges/triumphs completed so “unfairly” to their team they playing in a way they really are not skilled and comfortable with. Like trying to get bow kills and they suck with a bow. Maybe they’re trying out a build or subclass that they’re not used to and really isn’t for them.
My point there is in the more average skill bands there are a whole lot of reasons players can up bad numbers.
I know you gonna show evidence or video that half of your team ended a match with a combine 6 kills, right! Just want to see who in destiny is worse than me.
Good points but I want to point out Bungie has has both SBMM and CBMM available at one point. However, the higher skilled players still complained about it because it was only them in the CBMM games because all the lower skilled players played SBMM. Why did they play that more? Because it was more fun for them to, because they could play crucible and not be mercy-ruled and KD farmed.
I agree the crucible playlists need an overhaul and give better loot, especially in SBMM. I don't think that would solve the issues though because as much as Destiny is a loot game it is also a game and what people want more than loot is to have fun. If players are getting stomped and get an occasional high end loot from those matches they will still leave eventually because it's not fun getting spawn killed and farmed so someone can show off their KD.
It sucks to hear but being a high skill player kind of comes with the other negatives in SBMM in Destiny because there are no dedicated servers for PvP. You can't have a good connection and skill balancing with the peer to peer system.
I feel for you not being able to play the game the way you most enjoy but you have to understand when you frag out with your off meta build will always come at the cost of someone else's fun. For you to get 30+ kills a match other people must die 30+ times.
Overall the most important thing is that this game continues to grow and thrive. If more people enjoy SBMM and that gets them to play more then Bungie will continue to pour resources into improving the game because it will keep growing. The more players enjoy ALL aspects off the game means the game overall will continue to grow and thrive. That is the most important aspect of all.
Unfortunately, if streamers aren't having fun, they will let everyone know. This will convince a large audience that the game is bad, and people will quit, or not try the game at all. Streaming has become a huge method to advertise your game. That's why "streamer treatment" is a thing.
Put in a different perspective though sbmm is bad for all parties involved. I remember when I first started playing d2 I was complete garbage at pvp (only played pve in d1). During forsaken I had to work my ass off with many nights of clutch victories and terrible losses to finally get weapons like Lunas howl and recluse. But as a worked for it I saw my kd rise, from a .8,1.5 and then 2.0. I feel like sbmm takes the pleasure and reward out of getting better because it just punishes you with better opponents. So why bother getting better if nothing changes.
@@ethanbradberry5224 "Oooh, that was such a good game! I've never gotten a 3.0 kda, i wonder how my next match will go!" *matches them with people that got 3.0 every game last season*
@@ethanbradberry5224 While you were getting your Luna, you were actually competing in the SBMM playlist. And you feel improvements not in the indicator of "K/D" ratio, but by how you outplayed your opponents, how you managed to clutch a match and so on.
SBMM allows you to get fair matches, like the ones during your Forsaken climb, where you actually had a fighting chance almost every time.
Very well put.
I remember exactly "Classic mix" where most low to mid skilled players didn't play and some content creators said that is a "visibility" issue coz node was too small 😂😂😂
Anyway IMHO player retention what Bungie is after and even if 20% of higher skilled players stop playing completely it's still fraction of low/mid skilled players who potentially going to play pvp even more.
I want to echo others' sentiment that less experienced players still need to "sweat" in lobbies in order to feel successful. Many of my friends don't even get to experiment with off-meta loadouts because the moment they put on something that they don't have down in muscle memory they feel they lose ability, feel less successful, get tilted and so on. I understand the connection frustration, but a good implementation of sbmm, or "soft sbmm" like bungie is trying, prioritizes good connections. SBMM is never mutually exclusive with CBMM.
TDT and viewers: if you're willing to branch out, I highly suggest Sajam's video on SBMM. Sajam comes from high level FGC but he has vast experience in many genres, he is truly a video game veteran. He addresses the complaints you listed here and then some. The one complaint he does not address is the rewards, but I think that point is moot because again, many casual players often feel like they need to sweat just to keep their head above water.
the loot argument is not a moot point and no sajam is primarily a fighter genre creator with little experience in the shooter subspace. The problem you aren't addressing is that destiny's bare bones idea revolves around the concept of loot more so than any other shooter game, so that being said as an extremely high skill player myself I don't have a problem playing other high skill players as long as there is incentive to do so. It doesn't have to be guns but emblems or shaders that that can really point out the best in the game would be greatly appreciated and no comp isn't a measure of skill anymore as most people can get to legend rank as long as they have the time. Lastly the idea pointed out there should be a choice between sbmm and cbmm matches should definitely be a thing, you see the problem with sbmm is especially for me I cannot play with some of my friends simply because they would have no fun in the lobbies that come with playing with me, which is a problem in a social game like destiny where often times you aren't going to be playing with only friends of your caliber
@@terribletimes902 once again a commentator for a reason, and no my points still stand, you realize that he hasn’t been in the shooter space for almost a decade things change. And you missed my whole point conveniently, which is that destiny isn’t just an fps it’s a looter shooter so if you want to make the casual playlist harder make the loot better for players that you deem better. And fighting games have ranked systems hell even smash has one, whereas destiny hasn’t bothered to do anything with comp since it’s removal of pinnacles
@@terribletimes902 that’s also why other communities make absurdly less money than fps games with the exception of games like league and dota which have oh yeah a good ranked system to give incentive for good players to play their best
Less experienced raiders have to sweat during raids too while people like datto breeze through it, does that mean that datto's team should have signifigantly harder raids so they all have to sweat equally? No of course not.
Its a very simple concept, put time into an activity to get better at said activity and as a result you get to mess around a little bit more, but as it is in crucible you get better at crucible but your experience within crucible doesnt change, its still as hard as when you started. You never feel a sense of progression because bungie is purposefully taking that away
@@Vaultyboi22 i would point out that raids are about pattern recognition and able to follow along. Raids, once you have everything down, is EASY!
The whole reason I still play destiny is because I like trying to make off meta exotics into viable builds (verity brow is being slept on hard with weakness magnetic grenades) so I definitely agree that it's hard to try things like this now. Even when I am doing well, next thing I know, several people quit on my team and it becomes pretty much impossible to win against 5 people aping you at once. Really annoying
Do they one hit? I’ve been using them with double explosion fusion nades with igneous and they do, but element options would be nice
Fax Verity’s with suppress and weaken grenades for the Collective Obligation is my favorite build ever
You can still run fun builds. It just isn’t that competitive. Eventually you will lose enough to get into lobbies where those builds work better. You just need to prioritize fun gameplay mechanics over winning. This may be the underlying issue with a lot of these ‘anti meta’ comments. Ultimately people feel they can’t run them because it is not fun to get crushed. So even though people say they enjoy off meta play, they really enjoy winning more. There is nothing wrong with that. Just need to be honest with yourself. This is why meta loadouts exist and are the majority in game.
@@shadowpriceyear2713 with 1 stack of the verity brow buff and grenades cause weakness fragment, they do. Throw on an adrenaline junkie void weapon with volatile flow, then you get 1 one shot grenade comboing into a damage buff, volatile rounds, and devour. Pretty nutty
@@ZGamingGuy Jeez, that's crazy!
Jokes on you, I don’t have to make myself look like an idiot because I am a idiot
Same
Meme Lord Forcer is always watching
I gotta give you credit for actually acknowledging stomps, and even ALLOWING an alternate option of having 6s with SBMM alongside a 6s CBMM. So many pro CBMM types aren't even willing to give us our OWN space. I gotta work off your point about having to run meta and sweating. For a lot of low performers, this was the standard for several years. Meta+sweat, every game. I mean, the fact that you have to come to reckoning with this is kind of bewildering for me because it has been the standard for a lot of us for such a long time.
And this is the outset of what you expect from as a "good game". For a lot, a majority even, ten kills and not being absolutely swamped IS a good game. Reasonable challenge IS our good game. Whereas a higher performer has wildly different expectations of what a "good game" is. For them, it's significantly far more kills. 30 kills. 40 kills. It's like moving back into an apartment after you lived in a house or taking the bus after having a car for 10 years. The withdrawal is immense, unbearable. But it has to be faced at some point, because I don't get hype from seeing myself or someone else get 40, 50, or 60+ kills anymore, I see a horribly broken MM that shouldn't be pitting these players against their respectively way higher performers. I see myself and others just quitting, even if we really do want to play PVP, against their opinion that we're doing the three for a pinnacle. We do want to play PVP, but playing it against them makes it an insufferable experience that thoroughly wrings out any possible enjoyment you could seek from the game.
Problem is that for a season or 2 there was 2 separate 6v6 playlists, one with sbmm and one with cbmm,
And the pro-cbmm complained endlessly about it because more people played the sbmm mode,
Pro-cbmm players will never be happy until all sbmm is removed from everywhere except maybe comp
good points, I absolutely agree.
as a Pro-cbmm player all I want is equality and fairness if I am to play in sbmm lobby's I would atleast like better loot, just like you all would like room to breath we would also like our room too, I understand there are players out there who pubstomp and those people should feel terrible but to condemn everyone else who enjoyed cbmm but was just playing solo, experimenting, or just casually gaming isnt fair you may see that way but it isnt and I'm sorry you had to tough it out for as long as you had its not fair to you all either.
@@Shyhood you don’t think there’s a distinct competitive advantage if top tier Connection based players got better loot? Your reward is you get to stomp newbs and casuals, if that’s not reward enough, well…To think Bungie could even balance loot drops to not make the game even more unfair is hilariously naive when they can’t even make a single match fair or stop putting out busted weapons.
@C J, I just quit destiny all together. More money in my pocket and better mental health. This game is a cancer of the mind.
@@kieronmckay4276 I don't you understood what I was saying, if I am to play in stacked hard and buggy matches I would like my loot to reflect that
I've been a fan of the concept of SBMM for Crucible as a whole (with the exception of things like Mayhem/Momentum Control/Scorched/etc.). I am a little concerned about the execution of it though given how...passionate the d2 pvp community can be. Bearing in mind SBMM has barely been a thing in Control for a week, I imagine that Bungie is executing it thusly as an aggregation/data collection method first and foremost. I believe Mercules said something like Bungie devs playtest a lot, but year of them doing it doesn't amount to 1 day's worth of live player data. I wouldn't be surprised if Bungie come out and announce tweaks as the season goes on based on that data. I also wouldn't be surprised if they institute player timeouts for abandoning matches like you get timed out of survival for abandoning comp matches.
I think it's important to separate the skill levels and it's important to balance the lobbies. Plenty of work is needed on both. New players coming in tend to walk right back out of crucible. My clanmates who are less pvp-focused than I find themselves frustrated in having to grind certain exotic catalysts because of having to get Guardian kills and they just get mollywhopped immediately. Overall, I think it's a good thing that SBMM is being attempted and I'm looking forward to seeing how it PROGRESSES. Because it needs to progress.
I really hope they don't add a ban system before they add stack protection and map voting. The only time I ever leave matches is when a see a sweaty stack on the enemy team, or if it's some garbage map like disjunction, where I know I won't have any fun because the map is terrible.
By doing this, you're basically making trials the casual playlist. The same problem D1 had. Having a penalty for backing out of casual 6v6 is going to drive so many players away from pvp entirely. Its not just sweats that leave games. Most people leave when they get disjunction or twilight ass. No reason to play a video game for pain and suffering. You play games for FUN.
See, saying it's only been a week is where you're wrong. This isn't the first time they've done this. In fact, the same exact problems from last time are here again, but even worse. Bungie knew the diehard pvp players, like myself, were going to hate it. I assume the casual players aren't playing more pvp, and now the only people keeping the playlist alive don't want to play
@@ethanbradberry5224 that I agree with. But we can only speculate what they do. I imagine it's easier to implement a ban system than it is to implement stack protection in a way that's different from freelance vs teams. I hope they don't implement a ban system for 6s at all.
@@yhelloh trials needs a complete overhaul, let's be clear about that. I still maintain that Cammy had it right when he suggested that Bungie doesn't even know what the identity of trials is. They've made well-received changes to it, but it needs a complete redesign, imo. And I don't think they should start banning people for backing out of 6s. I was only speculating because that's one of the more common complaints I'm hearing: people leaving games in session for whatever reason.
The point of SBMM is not to "force you to improve", people don't really improve their rankings without conscious effort.
It's to make Crucible more fair to everyone by making people play with their peers, not someone way outside their league.
And thus the analogy of strikes going to grandmaster without the loot getting better is absolutely wrong.
What you (and most other PvP players in the higher skill brackets) experience now with SBMM is a more fair matchmaking. Anyone who's better than half of Destiny PvP players have played (on average) easier PvP in CBMM, than those who are below that half.
I'd like to propose a better analogy for you: imagine the default strike difficulty was GrandMaster, but as your skill goes up, the difficulty is instead going down. So the newer players have to struggle both due to lack of skill and due to lack of loot.
By "locking" the "difficulty" to each player's skill, we eliminate that difference and everyone can have a similar experience. (Locking is very loose here, as even Bungie's optimistic target is expecting 60/40 win rate spread, but really it's much closer to the 75/25 so far in my experience)
You want wacky builds - go ahead. Maybe you'll lose more, but the system should recalibrate and accommodate your suboptimal play soon-ish.
You want to sweat your ass up - go ahead, the system will find you some worthy opponents soon.
The main downsides of the SBMM system are:
Smurfing, aka cheating the skill system, but it's much less pronounced in the MMO where the sunk-cost and time commitment to roll a smurf are very high.
Bad Connections, which, as you correctly identified can be addressed by either more strict matchmaking (for example, I'd rather wait more for a better match), or by being much more strict regarding the baseline connection requirements.
With all that said, I can see the non-SBMM option, but it should be an opt-out, like "I'm ok to get stomped, get me into the match quicker".
I was about to start hacking away with a lot of the garbage uttered in this video by you did a pretty good job here. The top %age of players think using "off meta" loadouts and chilling means the absolute skill advantage they have over average skilled players goes away. The average player has to "sweat" just to stay in the realm of contention and it feels awful to still be farmed.
The strike analogy he used was also ridiculous since PvE is fundamentally different than PvP, Bungie can't balance you the player (minus making you aim slower, blinding you, or coming to you house and kicking you or something ridiculous) but they can balance the difficulty of the strike by adding/removing enemies making them more/less accurate ect.
Underrated comment, you put it perfectly
One thing about the doesn't force you to improve part, I'm pretty sure that even if it doesn't hand hold you and force you to improve it does provide optimal conditions to improve and get better incrementally.
Like you win more, you climb up the proverbial skill ladder until you hit your plateau, at which point you either stay, or learn a bit from opponents at that level and keep moving up.
The difference being that unlike throwing someone at Everest and saying "git gud" as non-SBMM would do if you're new, you get instead a progressively steeper mountain with plateaus for you to rest at for safety and practice.
I'd like to see TDT address every point made here, because there's a lot of truth in this comment. I don't think higher skill band players' complaints are completely invalid however, lol
it's clear that connections have gotten worse for them in sbmm, and there's a fair argument for having to try harder being unrewarded, though the latter is a little hard to argue considering what us at under average kda have had to go through.
"You want wacky builds - go ahead. Maybe you'll lose more, but the system should recalibrate and accommodate your suboptimal play soon-ish."
For this to be accurate you have to separate skill across all the modes (which they should be doing anyways since trials and comp and control all play EXTREMELY DIFFERENT. As the modes intent, I'm gonna be sweating my balls off for trials, but there's no reason for me to play the "fun" mode when it's not fun and it's matching me with my trials enemies with worse loot.
This "suboptimal accommodation" for wacky loadouts only operates in a world where you are playing control and not tryharding in any of the other modes as bungie MM currently stands
The fact that you're an off-meta player is the reason why I love your channel.
I was just talking about how neither side is being productive by strawmanning the other side.
Something I see a lot of the high skill players fail to see is the fun factor. They’ll go on about how they don’t want to sweat every game but ignore the fact that the lower skilled players want the same and without SBMM they have to sweat or spend most of the game respawning because higher skill players are constantly going on 5+ streaks. There needs to be at least some SBMM so all skill levels can have fun without sweating
The key difference though is that some players actually put in time to get better at the game. Many players who arent putting in time to improve are now being catered to, despite not being the ones who play the game the most. I get that the game should be good for everybody, but how is that fair to people who got stomped, but instead of being discouraged by that, they were instead motivated to improve and eventually got good at pvp? With all due respect, if you’re not willing to put in the time to improve at crucible, why should your opinion be weighted just as heavily as the people who spend most of their time in crucible? At least in the old system, if you were tired of getting your ass whooped, you could put in the time to get better. Now if you do that, you’re just going to continually get harder and harder players with worse connections and longer wait times with no actual reward. So at that point, what’s the incentive to keep playing pvp?
@@the_VPR Mate, weight others opinions as less because they don't want to play CBMM as much as you do is not it. This isn't all due respect. If they end up playing PVP more than you do because of SBMM, does that somehow make your opinion less? No. These people want to play PVP, but for them, playing in CBMM thoroughly wrings out any expectation of enjoyment from PVP, just like it does for you with SBMM. You have to understand that at the end of the day people play games to have FUN, even you, and if they aren't having it, they aren't playing, simple as.
@@cj6498 so what if we took that same approach to the raids in destiny 2? I don’t do a ton of raiding, so should my opinion have just as much weight as people who are constantly raiding?
@@the_VPR look man I’m not here to debate or argue, just pointing out a fact plus this really comes off as “we had to suffer so everyone else has to too”.
What will likely happen is players won’t get discouraged because instead of constantly getting one sided games their wins and losses will be closer, pushing them to wanting to get better. I used to be into crucible but constantly getting games where it’s an absolute wash because I’m being matched against people twice or more my skill level, the cheesiest builds or hackers (thankfully that part is mostly fixed) made me stop having fun or caring and I instead decided to focus my Destiny time in challenges that were hard and fun. PvP games that were close motivated me to improve more than games that felt like I was boxing Floyd Mayweather. Destiny’s PvP is hard but it’s not fun because there’s no healthy way to grow and improve or a carrot to chase and just because you slogged through it doesn’t mean everyone will find that fun too.
I still play Crucible but only when there’s something I want to chase, be it the weekly pinnacle, an exotic catalyst (cryosthesia’s was the worst but its a great pve exotic) or mostly Trials loot.
Destiny needs a matchmaking system that rewards improvement but not at the expense of lower skilled players. Raids wouldn’t be as much fun without being able to help lower skilled players improve and much like how I want everyone to have fun in raids no matter their skill level I want the same for crucible, fun for everyone not just the high skill players. Plus the more low skill players that have fun the more that will stick around and improve and by extension the bigger and healthier the population gets.
I’m saying that when I got stomped, I decided I didn’t want to get stomped. So I got better at the game. And now I’m being punished for that with laggier games, longer wait times, and not being able to have fun in literally my favorite activity in the entire game. How on earth is that fair? Not saying the old system was perfect by any means, but at least every single player had the opportunity to improve their own experience by improving at the game.
You mentioned one sided games, which is more of an issue with destiny’s (atrocious) lobby balancing than it is matchmaking. The majority of players in any given CBMM lobby are going to be around average, with maybe 2-3 outliers. When those outliers aren’t separated appropriately, you generally get one sided games. The lobby balancing in destiny is horrible, and it’s a damn shame that bungie decided not to touch their lobby balancing system before implementing sbmm.
Not to mention, we had the comp playlist. If people wanted competitive games, why not enter the comp playlist? Obviously the rewards system is a joke there, but it’s still more rewarding than regular crucible. Now there’s no way to opt out of strict sbmm.
With regard to raids, the key difference is that high skill players have the option to help low skill players which is rewarding. Key word: option. What if bungie implemented a system where if you had over x number of clears, you were forced to be a Sherpa every time you wanted to raid. That’s more in line with what sbmm is now, since whether you like it or not, you have no option to opt in or out, whereas before you did. If you weren’t having fun with the CBMM experience, you could go into survival for a reprieve. Now, your only option to escape sbmm is rumble (which I do play more of now but it obviously lacks the teamplay aspect that makes destiny so fun) and whatever the rotating playlist happens to be, which needless to say features some pretty lacking game modes most of the time.
In general, I do agree with you. Bungie needs to implement solutions that aren’t alienating swaths of their player base, regardless of whether it’s hardcore players or casual players. Like you mentioned, the best way to do that is by keeping playlist populations healthy and keeping them from declining. I think where we disagree is that the sort of strict sbmm that bungie has implemented (despite them saying it would be loose, let’s not pretend like that’s true) is not the best path forward to achieve those goals. Was the previous system perfect, of course not. But at least before, people had the ability to opt out of or into sbmm, and people weren’t punished for their improvement at the game with lag and longer wait times. The best sbmm is going to dramatically improve the experience for those at the lower end of the skill gap, and ideally not change much for everyone else.
1. SBMM was a choice at one point in the Clash vs Control playlists. The result was that all skilled players gravitated there and essentially created an environment like trials where it was just them being uber sweaty with each other.
2. The idea that 'I don't want to sweat' is a facade. For every higher level player that just wants to roll with a goofy build for fun but can't because they 'have to' sweat there is a less skilled player that will never be able to do that either. Here is an idea, have fun with the game. Put on a goofy loadout and sacrifice some of your 'skill' for that fun. Eventually the game will put you in lobbies where you belong with goofy loadouts.
3. Playing PVP for loot should never ever be the solution. PVP, especially the casual version, should be just for fun. If loot is the only incentive to play an unfun game mode then you have failed. We are all looking at you Trials playlist.
TLDR
Everyone wants to have a fun experience. The only way to truly do that is to have a fair game experience. The only way to really be fair is with SBMM. It sounds like you are coming around to this concept. The system certainly could work on the fringe areas of issues. But essentially it should really exist all over and not be thrown away. I don't personally think map selection or loot or any of the other window dressing ideas will really help if the core game play isn't fun and fair. Again, look at Trials. Pretty toxic environment for a majority of the player base.
Honestly man, use fun builds and just enjoy the games. Losing matches isn't a bad thing as long as you're having fun, idk y people playing d2 pvp likes it's some championship, d2 isn't a competitive game n it never will be. It's a PvE game, pvp is just an additional mode in the game. I'm just surprised people don't understand these things sometimes
@@ManithGodamunne because players want to hold on this false sense of elitism.
@@ManithGodamunne and i dont get why people like you think its remotely fun to be stomped in a casual playlist by deathballing 4stacks running meta guns with maybe only a duo on your team. I dont play crucible because its so ungodly unbalanced, and just queuing any mode now to get arc guardian kills shows me this is the opposite of enjoyable, because being dead to stacking try hards isnt enjoyable and sbmm actively encourages this nonsense
losing is not the concern, people want to get kills and when off meta loadouts dont produce immediate results its extremely frustrating. i dont think people mind so much losing as doing abosulte dog water in game
Im personally all for sbmm, the last few day are the most fun I've had in pvp in a really long time, with close games and equally skilled players. A win feels genuine and earned and a loss feels fair and more like a lesson on how to improve. My friends and I have mostly played pve and only done pvp for bounties, but now it's actually enjoyable go into matches with them. Getting stomped out 25 - 150 is extremely demoralising and had just turned us off from pvp for the longest time. New players won't be shunned away from pvp by the top players, and lesser skilled players(like myself) actually enjoy more of the game than before
It's still fun BECAUSE you haven't played much. There will be a point where your ability as a player will "cap out". I'm not an amazing player, but would consider myself slightly above average when I really want to test my mettle. It is EXHAUSTING playing every match at 100% and I find the meta of games very boring, personally. And it will be every game when you hit your limit. If you do not use your "try hard" gear, it WILL be a stomp almost guaranteed. Think about it this way, if you fight someone who is equally skilled as you and you both use the exact same things, it should be a 50/50 match, in theory. If you switch to something that is objectively worse than what your opponent uses, then your odds of winning drop drastically because you have to play the game at a higher skill level than you are physically and mentally capable of doing to bring up the odds back to around 50/50. Now if you were paired with someone who is of a lower skill than you, you CAN switch to an objectively worse loadout than your opponent and you would have room for mistakes, allowing you to go easier on yourself while still having that chance of winning close to 50/50. I'm glad you are having fun, but once your skill rating settles, you will probably play less games in a session because of how draining it will end up becoming.
@@Lamp37820one thing u arent addressing also is what did a lower skilled players have to do in CBMM just to clear bounties? they also had to sweat their life out just to get thier bounties cleared because they would be put against people on average higher skilled than them. Now what if they had a bounty for off meta kills? they would be lucky to get even 1 per match. I know SBMM is sweaty if u wanna win but at least i can get kills with off meta loadouts and not 0 now and im pretty sure even though u would probably do badly and lose with off meta u can still at least get to see how ur cool off meta build works for a few kills unlike lower level players in CBMM where i cant even get out of spawn sometimes let alone get off meta build kills and in the worst case u can just keep using ur off meta build till ur skill rating goes down and u will get some easier games where u can use it effectively. also getting stomped is actually more motivating knowing im less likely to face them and more likely to face others instead of in CBMM where the chance of landing the exact same enemy team is actually ridiculously high
@@krater6858 you are absolutely right. I wish I had a solution that would help everybody, but SBMM is really only beneficial for those in the lower skill bracket. But without it, the lower skill bracket is hurting because a majority of players are at a higher skill than them. At least with SBMM, everybody gets a little screwed over, as opposed to just the lower skill. After half a decade of playing fps games with strict hidden SBMM, I'm just so sick of it. Halo, cod, apex etc. Social playlists are indistinguishable from what is supposed to be the ranked ones a lot of the time nowadays.
@@Lamp37820 lol you just want easy lobbies to slay out in, like the entire d2 community.
Feels good to suck
as an average player, i like sbmm, here's why:
connection was ass before anyway, there's not much difference in quality. (as long as bungie has peer to peer servers, i can't take the argument of "sbmm makes connection bad" seriously.)
you actually don't get rammed every other match. (top tier players can't pub stomp a lobby if they actually play against their caliber, they are kept out of ruining average players' days)
matches are generally more enjoyable, because the teams are equal in skill.
i actually improve at the game bacause i'm playing similarly skilled players.
people like you, tdt, or content creators in general, get a glimpse of the crucible as it actually is for the average joe. we don't get to try out fun builds, and we're most likely never going to stomp an entire lobby.
why should a small minority of top tier players have fun at the expense of the larger crowd?
while i do agree that the higher the skill, the better the rewards should be, i have to ask you: have you ever played crucible for the rewards since mountaintop/ recluse? or do you just need upgrade fodder to get to the power cap faster? we both know the answer, so tell me: do the rewards really matter?
imo, sbmm is a massive W.
I forgot to bring up connection in my own comment. I actually have no connection problems 99% of the time. Occasionally a player is really laggy but I have seen this more after sbmm went away. And matchmaking times are never a problem for me with either system, sbmm does not tend to take no longer to find a match in my experience. Maybe this is because I'm on console, idk
You took the words right out of my mouth. I’m a slightly above average player and ever since sbmm was reintroduced my crucible games have been fun again. And your right, the only time I play pvp is for seasonal challenges or the pinnacle reward. But when I play those crucible games now it’s a good experience. I don’t have to worry about facing tryhards using the meta. Trials is supposed to be the endgame pvp mode that’s where all the good rewards should be for pvp. Not just another control game. I swear the only people I see complaining about sbmm are the top tier pvp players because now they have to face people of equal skill to them instead of pub stomping like they’re used too. Loose sbmm is great and I hope bungie doesn’t fully listen to these top pvp players. They’ll probably just ruin it for everyone
I honestly have more fun now
The problem is, for average to below average players, the sweats dont like picking on people their own size, so they use that one SBMM fireteam glitch to get sweats (2+kd) into the average (1-/+kd) lobbies and it is painful to play agaisnt
That's not it at all its that it makes every game supper sweaty and takes the fun out of the game.
This will be one of the core decisions Bungie make moving forward. I like PVP but I am not 3.0 KD player. From the perspective of someone on the complete opposite end of the spectrum as you are I don't know how either one of us is going to ever be completely happy with what happens next. I do know that my average play time doesn't allow for a lot of pvp for anything other than getting challenges or catalysts done when required but i have always enjoyed it...until they removed sbmm completely. I was a 1.4 KDish player before that and a few months in after they removed it I was a .6. I hope we can find a middle ground where players at the lower end of the spectrum can enjoy Crucible but i have absolutely zero confidence this can be achieved. Players like me aren't taken into consideration very often and I understand why, I am not in Crucible for the majority of my play time so why would they balance for a player like that. If they can make it even somewhat bearable I might put some more time in like I used to but the constant steamrolling from the past cant continue. Its not sustainable. If they don't do something to even out the player base there wont be a player base in Crucible. Pretty soon the only people that will be doing pvp at all will be the top end and every game will be a sweat-fest regardless of what kind of rules they implement because players like myself will just never play Crucible and I'm ok with that.
As a pvp player theres basically no loot. So my main goal is to flow and improve. After it got tougher i improved and now im a better player. But now im getting punished uberhard for being decent by matching top 0.1% lobbies with avg. kd/s of 2 and connections to china 9of 10games. I played, i stuck with it, i improved. Now i get no loot still and get punished for it. Eff this.
@TheSovietOnion oh please…the loot per hour played compared to pve in quantity and quality is laughable
I'm in the same position. as much as high skill band youtubers etc will go on and on about how they understand that there are people who are happier with this system, they fail to ever properly acknowledge it.
my kda is just as bad, but in contrast I've played quite a bit in the past. sbmm has made every match feel so much more fair, and im regularly topping my team now. gone are the days of one player on the enemy team stomping my entire team and dropping 50 kills, instead almost every match is even. lag is an issue rooted in p2p, and frankly it'll never not be an issue until p2p is gone entirely.
The nice things I've noticed in PvP this season:
- Every match has had people with similar combat efficiencies
- The matches are typically closer, some outliers though
- class variety again!
- 'meta' builds aren't as frequent, might be because no one has defined one yet. But it's less of the usual weapons.
The bad things I've noticed
- More people leaving
- More stacks that cause outlier matches that favour one side
- More toxic players, tbagging, emotes and not Caping zones and just rushing you.
- Slight desync with connection
- Combat rating and Skill are skewed now and not the same as elo and CE. People with low CE and elo have easier matches and may win more and get a higher elo, but their CR is still low. While people with high CR are in harder matches, lose more often and don't have a good ce and win rate. It's almost harder to identify a good player and a player who's been in high skill matches now. Which honestly might not be that bad.
These are just things I've noticed. Your results may vary. No statement is being made here. Just giving my experiences.
Meta is the only way to play control now tf are you on about 😂
After almost two years of getting absolutely CLAPPED by asian basement lords it is a nice refresher to know that normal humans actually exist and play the game casually. I saw someone use the ruinous effigy besides myself the other day. Can you believe that? It was my first time getting killed by that thing and I was active during the entirety of season of arrivals and never saw it once that time. Although there are still the occasional stomps and getting stomped, it has always been a lack of teammates rather than being completely outmatched.
Wdym it's only meta loadouts now.
before this season every game i had had someone with .1 combat and 6 combat ratings. now all my games are 1.5-2.5 combat ratings across the board.
@@Ex0dus24 Thats been the most noticeable change for me too.
Since the launch of SBMM I've said to my brother who I play the game with, "Hey you wanna jump into some crucible?" and the answer isn't a defeated sigh, he actually wants to play it.
Even in a utopia where: Glory is actually worth playing in indefinitely, lobby balancing was finely tuned. If connections were on the playable range, & queue times weren't a 20 minute mandatory break between matches, I honestly don't think it would make Quickplay the loadout experiential golden land that is whispered about. At the end of the day 99% of Destiny player's have been hard wired for years to take the easiest route to the desired reward. As long as winning equates to the easiest way to have fun in people's minds, sweats will always be in Quickplay.
You do realize that a mid k/d (1.1) player like myself normally has to sweat in every single game. There are some exceptions but generally we have to put in the work just to keep our heads above water. For me, that is what I like about competitive activities. I always try to play my best. Could be a generational thing as I grew up playing face to face sports exclusively.
Id agree if it was only the properly competitive modes, but when any and all game modes end up like that people tend to not like it because its a very high skill ceiling and somewhat gate keeping experience to have to literally play like moneys on the line to have a chance to put up a moderate fight.
Casual players won't like it solely because it requires max effort
A 1.1kd isn't mid-level,
That puts you in the top 23%
Pretty far above average,
People tend to massively underestimate their own relative skill in this game,
So if you're saying you have to sweat every game, the 77% of people under you that you'd go against under cbmm would have to sweat even harder and even then still probably wouldn't win,
@@Pbr7994 Hmmm...well now my k/d is 1.4. I don't understand how it could go up by ~30%, because any reasonable filter would skew me to playing against higher skill players. And I'm an ancient player (64) so I have a reflex disadvantage that I have to compensate for in different ways.
I think for mid to lower skilled players there’s a feeling that they have to also play “meta” loadouts almost all of the time if they want a chance to even compete, they (myself included) don’t necessarily possess the skill to be able to play however they want without getting stomped by an enemy team. My *hope* is that they’re trying to make the crucible feel more friendly and grow the player population in those playlists.
There’s a certain point where the skill gap does matter for improvement. If a player doesn’t know why they lost an engagement they can’t really learn from it.
Yup that’s exactly how I felt playing multiplayer for months. But this week my games have been easier. It looked and felt like I was playing against average casual players. I was able to use any weapon I want, do decent and not get frustrated
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Hey Mesome, video was awesome as usual!!! Thanks again for the match yesterday, was in shock afterwards that I had 1v1’d my most favorite UA-camr!! Keep it up man!! (Also I’m going on a whole training arch, I’m gonna win a rematch)
This debate breaks down pretty cleanly based upon where you rank in the skill curve. Higher skills players (who objectively make up the smaller portion of the population) do not want SBMM because it makes their experience worse. Less skilled players (who make up the vast majority of the player base) want SBMM because it makes the games more competitive, and means they actually have an opportunity to play the game. Most systems that prioritize the desires of the elite minority are bad; they unevenly weight towards the elite end, and thus make a large swathe of people "second class citizens," so to speak. As far as I am concerned, good players ought to be playing against good players, and bad players ought to be playing against bad players. I understand the argument from both sides-and yes, SBMM will make the experience worse for the good players-but it reduces suffering overall by tailoring the experience to the lowest common denominator.
Correct, which is why I said i generally agree with the system. Something I didn’t mention but is worth discussing here is that currently sbmm actively dissuades you from getting Gm better and winning games long term because of the points you already made. Does that seem right?
@@TDTProductions No of course it doesn't seem right. The systems that Bungie has put in place are actively detrimental to the higher end of the skill curve (as opposed to incidentally detrimental.) For example, in many FPS games SBMM is active only for the first few seconds of matchmaking, but switches to a connection based criteria after the initial timeframe (say 10-20 seconds.) This ensures that lobbies are more balanced than without SBMM, but does not put the impetus on higher end players to wait for several minutes while SBMM finds 11 other players within their skill band. Then, games will use lobby balancing to ensure that the teams are at least competitive, even if the individual results are somewhat stratified. For some reason, Bungie has elected to forgo the middle ground and stick to a purely CB or SB matchmaking system, except for in the most extreme situations (and their lobby balancing usually sucks.)
when people say that sbmm is a sweat fest usually dont realize is that pre sbmm if they were the ones with a 5 kd, to the other team they were the sweat lords ruining their fun, with or without sbmm people are going to say its sweaty, either because they are fighting players of similar skill, or because they are on the reciving end of high skill players going 40 and 2. I think your suggestion of having a casual and competative playlist would help this, so people who want to/sign up to stomp or be stomped can do so and people looking to fight similar skilled players and improve (maybe with some better rewards too) can do so as well
I think a good analogy if you put Manchester City or Barcelona in a lower league for a year. They’d win every game 40-0 without even trying. Then put them back in the top division so that they actually have to compete against the teams they play, and they find it infuriating because now they can’t just mess around and still absolutely dominate because they aren’t playing teams that are basically amateurs in comparison anymore.
Best (and fairest) suggestion I've heard about this is to make it a toggled choice on which type of matchmaking you wish to use. That way the player themselves can choose.
I agree with everything but making SBMM optional
on paper this makes sense, but in practice it wont work, the only players who would willingly go into a non SBMM playlist are either brand new players who don't know its not SBMM or good players trying to escape SBMM, leading to a playlist of like 90% good players
as a lower to average skilled player you'd have to have some BIG rewards for me to step out of my SBMM comfort zone, I've only sat down and grinded trials twice
first time was when freelance was first ever added and I grinded 15 hours straight for a flawless, one of only 2 flawlesses on my account (2nd of which was when a really good player I randomly found on LFG carried me) and the 2nd time I grinded trials was for Reeds Regret, I've never played trials for more then maybe 2 hours other then those 2 times
when I play PvP I only stick to the SBMM playlists, which tend to be sweaty other then control, I hardly played PvP before, out of my 2,600 hours on Destiny 2 only 800 hours are PvP, but this season with SBMM being added to control I've for the first time ever in my 4 years of playing Destiny 2 am playing more PvP then PvE
this is exactly what happened when we had the choice of SBMM or CBMM, top players had SBMM either way because nobody played the CBMM playlist
@@terribletimes902 man I’d love to be in the lower pools getting free GM loot
@@terribletimes902 thats the opposite of what needs to be done
the problem is that if SBMM was optimal then the only players that would play CBMM would be sweats, so CBMM would need good loot to entice the lower skilled players to play outside of SBMM
but you could say the same for the higher skilled players with SBMM, but the problem with giving SBMM playlists good loot means lower skilled players get high tier loot for a fraction of the effort of high skilled players, in CBMM its the exact opposite, but I think thats fine, high skilled players should be rewarded for having that high skill, that reward would be easier to obtain loot, where as lower skilled players would struggle for the good loot in a CBMM playlist
this also gives lower skilled players a reason to improve
improvement would lead to more loot, in SBMM your going to perform roughly the same regardless of your skill level, so everyone would get even loot, in CBMM the best players have the best loot where as the worst players would have to put in a lot more effort for the same amount of loot
SBMM playlists should be the casual ones, your not there to get a crazy amount of loot, your just there to play, sure this is terrible for higher skilled players, but higher skilled players could go to the CBMM playlist, and because lower skilled players have a reason to go to the CBMM mode it wont just be sweats
keep the SBMM mode for the 75% of the player base who are not good enough to really have fun in a CBMM environment but add a CBMM playlist with good loot to give that 75% a reason to play it and also rewarding good skilled players with loot
sbmm was needed, i can actually have fun in pvp now :P
Yea because ur bad at pvp my games have to be sweatier than usual😂i used to get a good mix of sweaty games and easy games, now its sweat pretty much all the time
You don't know what you are saying
I have a solution to this being a hot button issue…
Ice
In all seriousness though, I think a revamp to the glory playlist rewards would be nice seeing as it is just more of the same even though it is meant to be the competitive mode.
I like that you didn’t complain. You stated the issue from your perspective and then offered solutions. Good stuff man. I like it
Gambit exist for this moment
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Armor type: boots
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I was one of the people begging for SBMM for multiple seasons (basically since the 120 HC meta when I got really into PvP). Now that it's here, I absolutely love it. I mostly play solo for PvP and I'm not getting ran over by 6 stacks game after game anymore, which happened a LOT over the last few seasons. For me, crucible is fun again and my performance has greatly improved because I'm up against people closer to my skill level.
For my skill level, I'd say I'm just slightly above average (a couple "we rans", flawless in freelance, and previously about a 1.6 to 1.8 k/d depending on the meta)
I understand the issues for top level players but can we really sacrifice the game experience of 90% of the population for the benefit of the top 10% just because they have the loudest voice (content creators)? The optional SBMM for all quick play modes may work out well but for the average player, I'd would bet money that you would see less success and more frustration in non SBMM
Making the experience better for the top 10% doesn't mean it will ruin it for the bottom 90%. It's not a simple two sided argument as there are a range of different skill levels, so ideally we are trying to please everybody, not just cater to one large group. Also keep in mind that the people at the very bottom of the skill ladder suffer from bad connections and long queue times with SBMM just as the people at the top do, because there are less people to match with.
Honestly it's quite selfish to suggest that the system should stay as it is just because it's good for you, while still acknowledging that's it's been made worse for others.
You may think it's hypocritical to say that considering the top players didn't want to move away from CBMM despite how worse players were constantly getting stomped, but let's remember that's a skill issue. Your skill to some degree is within your control as it's up to how often you practice, but things like connection are completely out of control of the player. There is no SBMM in real life, if you want to be good at something you must practice and improve, you can't just wait for bungie to roll out an SBMM patch for reality.
@@carlmwaamba9846 I see your point and that's where I agreed with TDT that SBMM could be made optional. And yes, I am being selfish in my belief that "the good of the 90% is more important than the good of the 10%" as I personally have benefited from the new system and prefer it over CBMM. That is just my opinion and I know its not 100% correct, nobody is. In the end, I really think there needs to be some combination if the two systems where the connections are smooth but the average player is still able to feel like they are a productive member of the team. That's much easier said than done but for now, I prefer crucible in its current state much more than the previous seasons since the release of Witch Queen. It is a near impossible task to make every single person happy so I would say to aim to make the most people happy as possible.
@@cmg_axe7973 I personally think the best way to make everyone happy is to have the largest possible player pool for SBMM to pick from. But in order to do that, there needs to be a reason for players to keep coming back to the mode. As it stands right now, the people who play the most the most are getting the worst experience, which is terrible for player retention and therefore bad for everyone.
Being a 4kd player the last 2 seasons literally makes every game feel like a e sports tournament stg the sbmm isnt loose at all lol
You cant compare pve with pvp! First, a strike is always the same, nearly everybody can perfect his loadout, learn spawnpoints and will step by step master a strike or even a raid. In pvp each round is different, new players on your side, new opponents on the other, changing maps, other weapons and abilities etc. Its not i go 10 steps, fire a rocket, take cover, look at the champion … You don’t know what will happen and you have to react fast. Not everybody is able to do that. Also aim is much more important in a duel then in any pve situation.
Second, pvp isn’t harder for good players! Your opponents are on the same level as you are, same goes for the 0.5 kd player, he also gets opponents on his level. So its as hard for him as it is for you. This is the reason for leagues in any sport i know. And sbmm is not the reason connections are bad, bad server are the reason and if we want that to change we shouldn’t talk about sbmm but about servers.
Destiny 2 uses peer to peer not servers for pvp. This is something the community has asked to change for years and bungie shows no sign of fixing. So the issue is connection not server. This is also how ddos attacks were done early on, whoever had host could see the IP and Mac address of everyone in the lobby and would ddos till they managed to kick the player they wanted or the whole other team.
Ngl u can learn spawn point and do everything you just said if your half competent enough to look at a radar. This statement from you gives off some serious negative kd energy
@@Lexstotle thats just not true, no one can prepare for pvp like its possible for pve, because there are so many more factors that change every game. my kd isnt negative but even if it were so, i wouldnt care. i dont play for a number to show of with, i play for fun and i have much more fun playing against gamers on my level, then below or above me.
@@wickedbird6921 You can definitely prepare for pvp. Using radar and “perfecting your loadout” is something that comes with time. As a “good” player people are extremely predictable to the point its like putting a Preschooler in a war game against a military officer.
thank you for focusing on both sides becasue helpful stuff rather than beating down things is always good
Im going to be honest, when the anti-sbmm's entire point is "I want to play around, not sweat all the time," there is no way in good faith be on that side, because as a lower skilled player, I had to sweat beyond my capabilities Every. Single. Game. I'm sorry, if your entire thing is "it's getting too hard" I'm going to laugh in your face and tell you to meet me in rural australia, where every player teleports like they have a net-limiter, deaths around corners are more common than normal deaths, and every thing that should hit, doesn't because the person you were shooting at wasn't there
Loved the video and you touched on all the reasons I wanted skill based back (I’m an average pvp player) and so it’s been a pretty nice time in crucible for me.
The matchmaking system must have weights for skill, expected latency, and time spent waiting in queue. (If I were building such a system that's how it would work.) Hopefully they're tuning the skill factor downward week by week to get to a happier place. As a not very good PVP player, I'm enjoying facing off against players who are closer to my skill level, but based on everything I'm seeing from folks at the high end of the skill spectrum, they need to skill less into account when forming lobbies. I'd be sad if they eliminated skill as a factor entirely, they have a lot of room to tweak things in the meantime.
I love SBMM! I love playing the Competitive playlist every time I go into a social quickplay gamemode! I love having awful connection every game while playing against players as good as I am! Makes the gunfights and gameplay very enjoyable. Walls? Not important. Stable connection? Never heard of it.
I’m top 0.8%. I used to play every day. Now I play once every week.
The ping requirement would have killed my ability to ever play and get into Destiny. Recall it's a game people play all over the WORLD, including places with poor internet infrastructure.
Maybe a ping cutoff in that your ping can't be X amount higher than the average of the other team?
I cut this out of the rest of the video but this is a fair concern BUT let me ask you: is it fair if 5 other people are not having fun because of your poor internet? Its like the Trolley Problem, there isnt a correct answer but rather a shift from perspective to perspective
I remember back in forsaken when they implemented survival the matchmaking kinda had a "reset" I think.
But I was motivated and grind a lot. Since the matchmaking stats reseted I didn't have any trouble getting win streaks.
For the next 6 months I literally stopped playing pvp because the game forces you to have 50% win rate and the game though i was a god in pvp.
I was put in games against complete sweats while still having to carry my blueberries.
I don't like to give a easy fight so every pvp match(control and survival) I had to sweat hard in order to win. It was to much stressful.
This is my little story of how sbmm literally removed my fun for months.
Sorry for my bad English 😀
From what I have seen, either through content creator videos on UA-cam, and through the comment section of said videos, the majority of the points being made by the "skilled" players and Content creators is from their own personal stance of how it directly impacts them, their stats, and overall how it impacts their channels (i.e. Money).
These individuals will attempt to sell you "magic beans" to present it under the ruse of being anti-elitist mindset, what they feel is best for the game, and not how SBMM can, will, or does show positive gains for the "average" Destiny player. As many of the comments have made it clear that PVP has actually been more enjoyable, and allowed players to achieve personal bests.
I will say it has generated far more people leaving games, which I'm willing to bet are the same folks who feel their stats and their skill level is superior to others and not to be wasted in a throwaway game. I also assume these are the same folks who post videos of them murdering in control, but never help the team to cap or hold.
It also saddens me to hear from these "skilled" players, who have made a hard stance on the crucible and the players within them. As they feel the players within them are not worth their best play and pvp needs to go back to the old format to allow them to "test builds" and not worry about someone beating them. Just imagine if athletes in real sports, took this approach and told people and their team, they were going to sandbag certain games, just so they can work on new moves. Imagine how those other players feel, knowing that Mr. Superstar feels they don't have to put forth any decent effort and the players are just here to act as a tune up for new moves ect. In short, a sparing partner who does not hit back...
Just because a player is good, does not make them a leader. That is being made very evident with the SBMM topic.
Map voting can be heavily abused and will promote stagnation in matches. You will only see people vote on maps that best suits their play style and loadouts. Maps you hate are there for a reason, because you can't dominate on them.
Name disabling should also disable all stat tracking, weekly progress, protentional catalyst drops, and achievements. Additionally, the numbers you earn from crucible while your name is disabled, will not be applied to your account, overall K/D ratio, win/loss ratio, and weapon progression. It would allow you and like-minded folks to play in the crucible, and not worry about being in a stressful environment and test out new builds.
Sadly, disabling the name also comes with heavy risks such as griefing. For instance, we saw players on the same team during Iron Banner, run the spark back to their own base, just so the enemy team could kill them and score instantly.
As for rewarding pre-made teams, this sounds like a good idea, but only on paper and only to well established teams. It won't promote incentive for new teams to be established, since the present teams would be farming solo players and players who lack the resources the big name guilds and content creators already have. It simply keeps the rich richer, while telling solo players to pound sand.
I'm all for even playing field, but what has been suggested or hinted at, only favors the already established. It would allow for the alleged skilled players to take advantage of the system and go back to farming either new players, casuals, or average players. Remember, the people who are upset about SBMM, are not doing so because they are worried for the lowly solo player, they are concerned because it impacts their own K/D ratio they tout. For some, they make real money off that ratio.
Off-topic, but I got a neat exotic idea:
***Whitewolf Fang***
*"There is no hunter more dangerous than a wolf in winter." -Saladin, maybe.*
Element: stasis
Ammo type: *primary*
Magazine: 3
30 rpm glaive
(3-tap to the body, 2 to the head)
Exotic perk one: Winter's strike - gain shield energy with melee striks, both firing modes are capable of precision damage, melee or primary fire immediately shatter frozen combatants(note: in crucible this is a one-shot). Shattering a foe instantly refills the magazine.
Exotic perk two: Endless Blizzard - using alt-fire uses shield energy to charge a 4th shot into the magazine, this 4th shot has weak tracking and freezes targets on headshots, slows targets on body shots, and impacts with terrain will create a witherhord-like puddle of stasis energy for 3 seconds, slowing combatants that pass through it until they freeze, exit the afflicted area, or the duration expires.
Catalyst perk: Lingering Frostbite - increases stacks of slow effect applied as well as the duration of the stasis pool created by alt fire to 5 seconds, and targets wondering through stasis pools continue to gain slowness for a short duration after the initial affliction.
(!)shield only grants 30% DR as opposed to special ammo glaives 75%
My take: While it does force a bit more sweat, the simple fact that you're matching with people closer to you in skill means you are able to learn and improve, leading to more fun games. If you're a 2.0 KD player matching with .5KD players, you're not learning anything, and neither are they.
Exactly. Problem is nowadays people want easy as they dim that Fun. I find my fun the same way you described.
Factually untrue. Sbmm is why everyone is so bad nowadays and cry about everything. If your a noob and only play with other noobs, you never improve.
@@Sam-yr8ls No you are factually untrue.Sbmm make people who want to improve be able to improve at the game as you start to put your time and learn you will start to become a mediocre player instead of a noob.Then you can be able to dominate your lobbies until you start to face off with other mediocre players.Then as you put time and match with higher end of mediocre players you start to learn from your mistakes and start to be able match them.Then with time you become a medium of what a normal player becomes.This constant improvement will make you better with time as the times goes on.If you face off against players that 5-6 tiers higher than you and you get absolute stomped then you can't be able to analize your mistakes because you becoming a shit stain on the ground happens so fast that you can't be able to react to it and no,I consistantly be able to reach out to legend tier on glory rank and Im not a noob.Im just looking things in a sensual way instead of crying like big fucking baby.
No I'm not stopping I'm gonna say it.... I like this channel
I want to post a comment too
I really feel you on this one.
Loved the intro music, baba is you has a great soundtrack that most people wouldn’t recognize. Also, great video, keep it up
I legitimately read the title and thought, “He’s going to talk about the whole Oryx argument, isn’t he?”
I was pleasantly surprised.
at the end of every season, a new glory playlist opens up: Forged Glory.
Each week will feature a new 6v6 game mode, with map voting (no matchmaking)
week 1: rift
week 2: control
week 3: clash
week 4: new 6v6 survival mode
week 5: supremacy
week 6: 6v6 breakthrough
week 7: randomized modes between the six, with map and mode voting.
each week can have different modifiers to encourage different builds:
examples
week 1: (Mayhem) (Arc dmg+/solar dmg -) (+mobility)
week 2: (momentum) (-ability regen) (increased power ammo frequency)
you get the idea..
week seven would also randomize these modifiers per match.
drops grandmaster level rewards but tuned to accommodate shorter activity completion
I agree with your solutions. They address a lot of issues within pvp and they offer the player more choice to customize their experience. The ability granted by allowing the player to choose their pursuit which gives the player more agency.
I like the idea of a connection quality floor, as you proposed. No one in the lobby ought to have an unplayable connection.
There must be some minimal SBMM in the game, though, in the sense that it is _not_ reasonable or fun to have you or Wallah fight a New Light or my grandpa who has no thumbs.
It's interesting that we always talk about high skill players having a very small pool, long queue times, and laggy matches - but that is actually also true for the extreme LOW end of the skill curve. The current implementation of SBMM will harm outliers on both end of that curve.
While this is technically true, it doesnt really work that way in d2.
The best i can explain this, if the playerbase was divided into ranks (like a standard ELO system), over 62% of players are considered silved in D2. About 11% are bornze (with only 0.6% being bronze 1, the lowest skill.)
Comparing this to the other side of the spectrum, 0.056% of players are top 500 with ~0.5% being diamond rank.
As you can see, this means that for those top end players there is a very limited pool of people to match into even when compared to the lowest end players.
If you want to see where i got the % from, i used destiny tracker as bungie doesnt have an elo system or equivalent that players can actually see and use (this uses its own ranking but is fairly accurate) and only has a "combat rating" which has never been explained fully.
@@antarescypher2551 No, this is exactly what I mean. With your numbers, the Bronze 1 and Diamond players both face a similar matchmaking conundrum - low skill and high skill respectively. Assuming, of course, that Bungie doesn't change SBMM depending on your place in the curve.
We do know from the recent TWAB that "skill" on Bungie's end is a normal distribution - and apparently ELO from destinytracker is doing a good job approximating that.
The problem is the seperation of skill between brackets. Matching a Bronze 1 into a Bronze 2 is fine (and happens alot). Matching a top 500 or Legend player into a Diamond results in a complete stomp. Bungie knows this, so while low skill players get nice quick matches the top end get 15+ minute queue times into lagfest games.
As a someone who is on the lower end of the spectrum (0.6 k/d or something around it) i have to say it's quite refreshing to play in a lobby where people are on similiar skill level to me, but sadly i can't play much cuz my connection ain't that good, so rutabuga goes brrrrrrr, but yea, when i do have a moment i can finally enjoy crucible, instead of getting frustrated cuz that one guy or even entire enemy team completely runs over me and my team mates. I think SBMM was a good idea in overall, just the execution of the queueing on the upper of the spectrum has things that could've been done better, but yea, it makes you feel better because you can actually give it your best against others like you who do the same, instead of getting frustrated, not even talking about the feeling of being the worse one because that one guy keeps fragging like crazy and has like 3 times your k/d ratio
What I don't get with the suggestion of adding 2 different playlists, one with SBMM and the other with CBMM is that; wouldn't the more sweaty players lean toward playing the CBMM playlist while the average player would lean toward playing the SBMM playlist? In that situation, wouldn't the point of higher skilled players wanting to a more casual experience (less sweaty loadouts all the time) be rendered moot as most of the people in that playlist would also be around their skill level, that being on the higher end of the bell curve? All while the average players stick to the SBMM playlist, making the split in the two playlists kind of pointless except for splitting the playerbase.
For higher skilled players in this situation, both playlists would be sweaty for them either way.
Exactly! So the root issue is not only the matchmaking itself but haw players interact with it and how it makes us feels. Sweats complaining about sweaty matches tells me that the fun is not derived just from being good the game and beating other players, but a larger, maybe majority, chunk of the fun for a skilled player is being able to reaffirm your skill against low-skilled players. That would be true for ALL sweats complaining about their matches being more competitive.
I don't what that might mean in terms of why do good players so badly want to be to punch a down of lower skill players. I think it is spitefulness and toxic "git gud" culture. Because when these players were bad, they weren't given a separate matchmaking pool just so they can have fun, no ,they thrown out the frying pan into to the fire. They were fed to the sharks and had to deal with getting stomped, teabagging, and receiving hate mail because you KDA was still a .7 still mercy ruling the other team. No empathy or compassion was laid out to them, So we can not expect that out of them.
Bungie should first drop the whole P2P thing and switch ton full time dedicated servers and THEN implement sbmm into the game
or they can do what Epic Games did with Gears 3 and keep the low skill players in sbmm matchmaking and once they hit a certain skill threshold they get released into regular mm with everyone else
Truly agree with u with the loots, it so hard for to go flawless in trails
Hot take: SBMM is only a problem for "content creators" that seek to frag their tits against lower skilled players (like me). If i want to play a pvp battle, i want the fight to be fair, i don't want it to be a walk in the park, nor do i want to have my b-hole explanded by a sweatlord
So… you didn’t watch more than a minute or so of the video?
@@TDTProductions i watched the entire video, thank you very much. And my opinion didn't change at all
From the perspective of a PVE player, I just go into crucible for the pinnacles/rank 16 loot and never touch it ever again. SBMM will probably make me less of a punching bag for people's killstreak (I have god awful K/D, think under 1.0), and make crucible slightly more tolerable. Will it make me play crucible more? Maybe, but I think I will still drop playing crucible once SBMM matches me with the next "tier" of players that I cannot handle.
But from another perspective, since I don't play crucible much, the changes might not even affect me as much as the PVP players. I avoid it like the plague, hence I only experience the torture of getting rekt only once a week or near the end of the season. Besides if SBMM significantly increases matchmaking time, then I cannot quickly match, get destroyed and get my match completions quickly, and move on to other activities in a objective sense haha.
I feel that it might not be totally worth for Bungie to pander to lower skill levels.
I like the idea of being able to select between connection based MM and SBMM, it lets me, a noob, pick my poison. However, it then creates two pools of players which desire different things. The less skilled players will favour SBMM where they actually stand a chance which results in CBMM being filtered for only pro players. Effectively, the choice of picking between CBMM and SBMM is useless for more pro players as there is a lower chance to match lower level players in CBMM, and they are unable to queue with weaker players in SBMM. The choice system only affects lower skilled players then, which I reckon will lead to outrage from the sweaty players of the PVP community.
Selecting / voting for maps is a good thing too, as I can get to practice on certain maps that I am unfamiliar with, hence improving my skill level.
I’m one of those .0x KD people. Since SBMM I’ve spent more time in Control this week than in past 3 yrs of D2. It is a game changer for those that WANT to get into PVP but are clueless. The gameplay is slower, I can see my mistakes because I get to play more than 2 sec before getting stomped and farmed. At my level everyone is 💩 and hopefully we can get better. Sucks to be a PVP main, Bungie needs to find something for both high and low skill that doesn’t nerf the good guys base on their skill and hard work they have put into getting good.
Other benefits to the low skill SBMM 1) I can try out different subclasses and weapons without huge penalties, @TDT I’ve been trying BLINK 😳I never would have that chance in regular PVP and experience the play style 2) I might even get some of those freaking catalysts done that require 50 kills (not in my lifetime).
Anyway. I have been having a lot more fun spending hours in Crucible vs 3 games. I’m still at the bottom of the roster but it is much more enjoyable. Hope they fix it for the top echelon
Sbmm is for high end comp not the “regular” playlists some team balancing is fine but otherwise it seems rather dumb for a game like destiny to have sbmm. in general tho I agree with trials having it because trials is about that perfection in combat. but not iron banner in opinion iron banner is about the struggle to be a wolf amongst sheep that’s why I also disliked the removal of light diff.
I believe personally that option 1 is better because I hate needing to always sweat my bum of 24-7 and I agree completely with you, keep up the good work btw
You’re the ONLY popular streamer at this time to take a balanced approach, and I appreciate it as well as offering suggestions. Agree with making SBMM optional.
7:40 the problem with your first suggestion (to have an SBMM mode as an optional toggle) is that most games already do that. Games like Overwatch have a "ranked mode" and a "quickplay mode". The quickplay mode is often unplayable. its filled with people goofing around, disconnecting randomly, and generally theres no semblance of a real game there. Most players end up treating ranked mode as the go-to just because theres some chance the game will be normal.
"Forced to sweat"?
You mean that thing you're doing anyway, but against low-skilled players to look cool? It doesn't matter if you're using off-meta weapons when you have the map knowledge, rotational skill, call-outs, and general movement/aim that comes with being a strong player. The only thing you're doing to hold yourself back is using a weapon that takes one more bullet to kill than usual. You still move, shoot, and peek like a skilled player -- you're just not getting punished for bringing weak gear nearly as often.
You'll have to excuse me if I have no sympathy that you can't abuse bad players for your own personal enjoyment.
As to your "just use loot incentive for skill-based" fix, you know and I know that doesn't work and doesn't solve whatever problem you're claiming it solves. People get that loot and where do they use it? In the "chill pvp" playlist to stomp mudholes in players who are still trying to figure out that they can use both control sticks at the same time. We saw this with Mountaintop, we saw this with Luna's Howl/Not Forgotten, and we'd see it with any loot deemed valuable enough to sweat for. And what happens when the "chill pvp" mode is invaded by sweaty players with overpowered gear who want to go on a 100 kill streak to pad their stats? Everyone else quits and you're back to complaining about "sweating" in a "chill pvp" mode.
You know, the thing that was happening before Loose SBMM was implemented. You "top tier" players are like a broken record and you can't see what's happening to players who aren't trying to climb your ivory towers.
EDIT: And just as a point of order, the connections problem is inherent in Destiny because Bungie refuses to set up centralized servers or region-lock the game, forcing players to connect their PC to someone else across the world with their P2P system that only exists to save them money. They refuse to budge on this issue so "the connections suck for me!" falls on its face as they suck for everyone by design.
I'll give you another version of the "streamer mode".
Have it so that players tags aren't visible. Replace the tags with Red 1-6 and Blue1-6, with the exception of teammates being able to see each other's tags.
great thoughts - thanks for the vid
My main problem with SBMM is that I'm not really able to play with my friends casually since they would get steamrolled by the lobbies that I go into, and similarly I can't really play crucible with one of my closest friends since his lobbies would demolish me. So every time I play crucible I just go in alone for the best results, and even then it seems like the teams are still unbalanced. I do love the ideas that you brought up, being able to choose you maps and having a more rewarding SBMM game mode especially.
I want to elaborate, basically i like to play crucible with my friends and chill but I can't do that anymore since we are at different levels of skill, and so if my friends want to have fun in crucible they need to go without me for the best results. I dont play crucible to steamroll on new players, i just want to have fun in it with my friends, which isnt very possible anymore.
In my opinion, warface has done the matchmaking system quite well: their server is divided into 2 group, newcomer and normal. people will start and play in the newcomer until their level has rose enough, then they will be placed in the normal server.
There is one thing about SBMM though I absolutely love. I'm way above average for PVP and it makes me feel great when I constantly match PRML guys like Frost or ZK and still top leaderboards with them or against them.
I'm about as casual a player as you can be. I play Control a couple of times a week just for fun with off-meta builds because I couldn't care less about the meta. Before this season my best KD was 0.6 or so. Since this season started my KD has instantly shot up to 1.3 and it's consistently improving the more I play. I finally feel like I'm one among equals and not just a stepping stone. I finally have a chance in matches.
As someone who plays crucible by myself usually, I personally would like a Freelance mode for Control. (The more “casual” modes like Mayhem and Team Scorched don’t need it.)
As for your proposal regarding a sbmm to be an option, it might be beneficial to recycle the Glory rank (which is getting a rework soon) and create a sort of a “ranked” control. Think like in Rainbow Six Siege (a very sweaty PvP game, but hear me out): we have Quick Match (“causal”) and Ranked.
From the perspective of a lower skilled player, sbmm is a godsend. I spend a lot of my time being stomped and slowly worked up to getting a positive kd, but my average was 0.89. I don’t want to be matched with players who one shot me from thin air. Because I can’t learn from it. With sbmm (I’m suddenly in an auto rifle meta) duels are slower. Suddenly I have time to back out. To recognize I pushed when I shouldn’t have. To see my positioning was off. To learn from it. And eventually become a good player.
While I recognize for top players the game becomes harder, their idea of a relaxed match means stomping a lobby. Which isn’t fun for the people being stomped. Matching people closer in skill means the stomped get a fair fight, but so does the high skilled player. Which means he’ll have to work for it instead of getting east kills.
Both interests are opposite to each other. For someone to win, someone has to lose.
I think for most of the community sbmm is an improvement, or doesn’t change a lot. It’s worse for the top players.
But… sbmm will make pvp more attractive for new players and bad players. It can be a learning environment and then go on to comp or trials. Leading to a more healthy pvp playerbase.
Now comp and trials need work, maybe a tier system with tier X in comp being s requirement to enter trials. Rewards need work. Maybe we need work on some game modes that can be casual and fun despite wildly different skill levels.
But all in all.. being being stomped less is an improvement in my book.
I've wanted a Fun playlist Comp playlist for a while. We have one on paper, but if they are both skill based matchmaking they are only labeled that for how they play rather than who is playing them. They might as well change it to say Survival rather than Competitive, because the game modes and rep are the only thing separating them. Everyone is running their sweatiest loadout all the time and sometimes i just want to try out a weapon in pvp without feeling like i'm going to never get a bullet out of my gun unless i'm using my fusion rifle
SBMM aside can’t believe your almost at 100k subs. Great job
My main gripe ties into what TDT said, that creativity, and experimentation with off meta builds. Yes I am a trials player who gilds flawless and unbroken and will do so for iron lord. That skill is not communicable with quickplay, where I basically only go to use dumb stuff, like rat king and devil's ruin.
The games thinks I am a top x% player when I am playing way outside my comfort zone when I want to have fun. This is a looter shooter MMO with a HUUUUGE amount of customization and skillbased is basically saying "nah don't do that. You should be playing at your skill level no matter where you go"
I know some people who say "just go to the casual/party modes like momentum control/mayhem" but those are completely different modes with no semblance of the playstyle found in "normal modes". I'm all for SB to exist in some modes, hell it's existed in comp for a long time... but no one plays comp. Why? I don't know, is the prospect of losing visible number (glory) so much as to scare those players away?
Going into control and being close to the highest ce on the leader board does put a smile on my face
Liked your video. Great points. I am for SBMM so the matches are more challenging, so more fun. The only two downsides I have experienced is the wait times for a match. At the start of the season, matches were instant. Now that I've played for a week, it takes anywhere from 5 to 10 mins for a match. It also gets to a point where you vs the same people over and over. It isn't bad but just makes some matches repetitive. Cheers once again for the video.
I fully agree that players should have the choice to enter skill based and connection based matchmaking. the only thing I want to note (which will probably be a given for most people) is that the option should be easily available for those less experienced players. some people I play with who generally avoided crucible before the sbmm was introduced, have benefitted greatly from getting put against other learning players, and it has been lots of fun to watch them get more into the pvp side of the game! but they're still so confused when they get stomped in games that don't have sbmm, or in games where the lag from lack of cbmm ruins the match.
that said, I understand that both forms of matchmaking have pro's and cons and hope to see some good changes for learning and casual players as well as the more competitive players in future crucible updates!
I'm not really sure which side I'm in, if I'm only on one in the first place, but the thing I can absolutely agree on is that PvP NEEDS incentive to play. Despite being a average skill player, I exclusively play PvP when a challenge or quest forces me to, because I'm not getting enough rewards to make the lack of fun I'm having worth it. Reward incentive which scales with 'difficulty' and even how well a player does in a lobby would, at least for most, warm people up to the idea of getting better at the game.
Let’s just be honest here. Skill is based.
Streamers/top 5% of players have no place in the general population. SBMM is a MUST so it isn't just another Trials mess.
Just for context I am typically in a high skill bracket in most games. (diamond in siege, immortal in val, a 13kd in tarkov, in destiny 1 I was top 700 in NA for trials, and in destiny 2 2.11 Kd overall.)
That being said I think some lose version of Sbmm has always been in the game. Even since D1 I remember watching a MR. Fruit vid where he player on Rob's account where Rob basically tanked his stats and it was hilarious to see the people he played against . I think we need so new player protections which I imagine exist already. My biggest problems with SBMM for the majority of players are; 1) If you have friends of large skill distributions it ruins the game for everyone. I have friends that I know IRL who have .65 kds and I love playing with them. But when it's crucible time they don't want to play with me unless it's mayhem. They get stomped I have to sweat to even stand a chance. 2) This maybe a much larger deal than number 1. The sense of personal progression as a player. When you play RANKED in most games you do a few placements, in casual play they typically don't. In ranked you get so see your ranks rise as you get better. You typically always place in the middle ground of ranks then rise to your plateau, where things become harder and you basically decide if you want to grow as a player. If you don't you stay at your plateau, if you do you get better learn new strats, builds, placement, aim train, and all of the other things that go along with that. The problem with always matching based on skill and never seeing your self ascend ranks is you don't see or feel the growth. You feel stagnant, even though you got better, even though your aim is crisper, even though you can carry a lobby. YOU STILL LOSE. You feel bad like you didn't get better. I think to me that's the most brutal part of SBMM, the feeling of wasted energy; on a game mode that's not supposed to be ranked!
Halo Reach Matchmaking
- Skill Based
- Connection
- Mixed
Best in my experience. Map voting is also VERY cool.
Edit: my general K/D is 1.3, highest being 1.5; I play on console, and I before SBMM I matched against 3.0 all. The. Time. In Control, in Trials, in Survival. And it just... It makes me tired, man. I'll use metas and off metas depending on my mood, and it just sucks when I get pinned in spawn to be farmed for some stats. I've had a good experience so far with SBMM, though some connection issues, I will admit.
Listen to the video earlier, and at the time of the whole SB/CB change and dilemma first go around.
I recall seeing many people(myself included) suggest function solutions to it as (and hindsight shows) it was coming off as one extreme or another.
A few had suggested to shift sbmm to be broader in player selection skill with heavier focus in connection speeds.
Overall, Destiny 2 as a whole lack a whole lot of functions (it starting on console is not longer or ever has been an excuse) to not have them. One function I recall was being able to see specific or generally someone’s ping or quality of connectivity.
Useful to really show who’s gonna be having an issue (personal or otherwise).
But overall that’s always has been an issue with destiny as a whole, the lack of displays or visible information.
I have to say I like your proposed fixes, especially the map voting, which I would love to see in the game, but theres one thing I can’t particularly agree on. Incentivizing stack through more/better loot. Depending on how it is scaled I could see it easily being taken advantage of, while also leaving solo players at a disadvantage, if you don’t have a regular group to stack with or don’t want to take chances with lfg. Now I know you shouldn’t really argue against something if you can’t offer a better alternative instead, but as a -more often than not- solo player I just wanted to have put that concern out there so others might consider it as well and maybe someone else finds another solution that would still be incentivizing.
My largest complaint with sbmm is that it didn't have to be implemented in the most played casual Playlist the game has right away. This is what crucible labs was meant to be for. Alot of the issue could have been avoided if they said 'hey we want sbmm in the game again. However we want to find a good balance in connection and skill for matchmaking. With that in mind next season you will see a second icon for control when you load into the crucible called control labs. We will be gathering info on how our matchmaking is preforming as well as gathering player input to try to find a balance for the system before it goes live for all playlists in the following season.'
I understand the issue of well with labs they wouldn't get as much input. However that's why they would need to specify that there'd be one season of labs before it goes live. With this in mind the people hurt the most by sbmm. That top 15-20% of the player base would have been there. They would have been testing. Cause they don't want the casual Playlist to feel like a perpetual flawless game. Bungie would have gotten the info where it has the most consequences. The end of the skill gap.
Edit: grammer
So I've recently made the switch go my "sweaty" game to fighting games and it made me realize something, skill based matchmaking is a GOOD THING if applied correctly, however in d2 there is no reason to actually go play the "sweaty" mode so it bleeds into casuals that much more so you're standard try hard running the most meta thing is going to be in casuals trying to go as hard as possible instead of chasing the carrot in a proper competitive mode where he gets toys to flex. It's a good thing to want to sweat in a game, it's proof that you want to get better, but destiny doesn't have that for pvp anymore thats worth a damn so they have nowhere to go but casuals and pubstomp
Perspective: I play Trials for fun and I am also bad, being I've only been flawless once and that's because I got a carry. By myself I've gotten maybe 4 wins in a row at best. I have good days and bad days, bad days more often than good for sure. It might be my history of playing fighting games like Street Fighter that motivates me to just want to get better for being better's sake because fighting games are modeled very much on the SBMM side of things for online play.
I am overall for SBMM from the perspective you mentioned being that it's the best way to get better at the game by making the challenge more gradual. As far as the motivation issue being the lack of rewards, your solution of making it optional at face value IMO doesn't work because that splits up the matchmaking even farther. This means that those highly skilled players wanting to play some sweaty matches with SBMM will have to wait even longer for games because players they'd be matched up with normally might not be choosing to play SBMM.
My solution to this would be to take something that's been in fighting games and apply it here: a more distinct ranked mode that is always available. I feel like Destiny always wants to make an event out of everything, with Trials and Iron Banner being among them by only having them available for certain periods of time. We need something better than just Survival for gaining glory points. In a game like Street Fighter, when you play ranked online you win and rank up from bronze, silver, gold, etc. That rank determines who you get matched with in ranked mode and is visible to everyone so they know what rank you are. It would need to be applied to a dedicated mode like Survival or Elimination, or maybe even make Trials permanently available. Either way, having a rank in itself IMO would feel like a reward, as well as being a separate playlist allowing for Bungie to add better rewards in general would do well I bet.
I completely and totally agree with you here TDT. I’ve always thought skill based was important and it’s a fundamental mechanic in the most popular shooters on the market. But what the games that have SBMM backlash lack is a benefit for being in the highest tiers. Great points and good video.
comparing strikes to crucible makes very little sense and is a false equivalency, generally because your analogy is from your perspective there.
a lower skill player will be running essentially "grandmaster" by what you said. and they would be running it from match one.
I'm not disagreeing with your suggestions, I like a bunch of them, though the first one, I believe would just result in SBMM anyways, mostly because the only people who dislike SBMM currently are those in higher tiers, which would just make us wind up with SBMM lite, where top players aren't running SBMM, but only match with other top players, because no-one wants to get stomped by streamers. I would bet that SBMM heavy modes like the ones you're suggesting, would be populated by mostly newer players, or lower skilled players. and if SBMM could be toggled, (which I get wasn't the argument, but would be the easiest way to do this, as they basically already have rotating non-SBMM playlists. [you were playing rift in the video, which apparently doesn't have SBMM for some reason])
you want a reason to choose SBMM for streamers and top players, because you want it to be a choice. however, given the choice between them, a mid to low skill player would just choose SBMM. what you're asking for here, is incentive for the top 1% of players to not engage with lobbies they're just stomping. (of course there's connection issues, and ping and stuff, long wait times and the like. which makes your want a little more valid the connection and matchmaking could be fixed by expanding the top SBMM pools a little further down however)
I do understand that it isn't as good for making vids, or cool clips if you have to fight for your life against people who don't aim at walls instead of at your team. as someone who is decent at the game. [not god-tier, 90% of my kills come from build synergy] I understand how SBMM can make it harder to enjoy the builds you love to make as well, however....
addressing the build diversity point, I do understand that it's hard to have fun testing new builds if you're getting slammed every match. but for everyone under the top 10% of crucible players, that is just the norm without SBMM.
I'm not gonna test out a cool offmeta build if I get obliterated even when I run the meta. when you're having to fight hard every match on equal footing (SBMM) it stops build diversity. that's the point you made.
now, imagine how little build diversity you get if every match, you're getting stomped. if you're not even fighting on equal footing. your build diversity, your creativity, is a fight to survive, that will inevitably lead most players to the meta, or some boring bug or busted ability. by the anti-SBMM's own argument, not having SBMM actively kills build diversity for the rest of the playerbase.
I think a better solution than toggle or specific playlist SBMM, is simply to widen the top pool a little bit, to allow for some more competent players who are of slightly lower skill. Crucible should have better rewards in glory mode, but that's just a general thing.
in conclusion, The main issues facing high level SBMM are bad connection, and long wait time. removing or inhibiting SBMM is any major way in the name of build diversity for the top 1% would actively hamper the build diversity of the other 99%. The only way for everyone to reach a decent conclusion is to simply minorly expand the top pool, to allow for more players to enter it. thus allowing for more build diversity and less wait time, without affecting the majority of the casual playerbase.
all in all though, map voting sounds great, and I like a lot of your suggestions. (especially streamer mode, great idea there)
(also, about the beginning statement, I just really don't like PvE and PvP equivalency arguments in general, kind of a pet peeve. mostly brought on from that one time I posted a bungie suggestion on DTG to let solo players into trials saying it would revitalize the playlist {it did, by the way, still gloating about that one}, and got berated by hundreds of dickheads comparing trials to a raid.
just.... kind of a sore spot.)
from my experience this game never felt like it was connection based, as for sbmm a loose one could be good but there is the huge problem of all the imbalances of this game, it's not a few things its almost everything and make it hard to separate the skill pools for these games, characters class to the tiniest details in maps can make thing so one side even amoung player of the exact same skill
Crucible after SBMM has been so fun. I am finally trading blows again, and having matches where I do decent. Crucible doesnt feel like a chore anymore, im playing it for fun again
In muy opinion the optional sbmm would be awsome but not as a kind of game mode but as a feature that you could turn on or off in any game mode, not necessarily tied to better rewards but just for those who want a challenge against others at the same level for the sake of it or for people like me who can't play more than a few matches a week (even less when I'm busy) and are surely at the top 10% of worst players :(
Despite that I Ve been playing destiny since the taken king
I just feel like every single match is a grandmaster nightfall following the TDT's analogy, so I hope Bungie does the best for the vast majority of us players.
0.5 and 2.0 KD are in the same bracket lmao… I still don’t enjoy pvp , it now lets me get a kill or two more than before
I started as a complete scrub in Season of Arrivals, and worked my way to being what I'd say is a "decent" player; around a season or two since Beyond Light, I end seasons around the 2.0 KDA mark (emphasis on the A, since I prefer being supportive, holding lanes, etc.). I also am from Asia, so whatever opinions I have might be heavily affected by the matchmaking experience here (gaming culture differs wildly from my experience between East and West).
I think it's worth noting that most games with any sort of PvP, particularly MOBAs, have SBMM across the board; the degree to which SBMM is applied, however, varies whether you're playing ranked (strict SBMM) and casual (loose SBMM). While Bungie said that they're implementing loose SBMM, from my experience, it has been hit or miss; it's fine (in my context) to get matched with a lobby of people whose KDAs average around 1.75-2.25. Any wider than that range, and you start seeing stomps. I think this is why for MOBAs, even "loose" matchmaking tends to have a clear upper limit as to who you get matched with; strict matchmaking just ramps up that limit. At this moment, I've seen games where most people on a team are at 1.5 or so KDA, while the other team has low 1 KDAs but got carried by a pair of 4.0KDAs.
That said, I'm still all for SBMM, but particularly for one reason: cheaters. In the West, this is a less prevalent issue, but in Asia, cheating is horrendous. SBMM can help weed that out (more so than anti-cheat software) mainly because cheaters tend to climb KDA ranks higher; the more they play, it can be assumed, the more likely they'll start getting lumped together in the same lobbies. In a way, since Battleye is just straight up next to useless, at least having cheaters be more likely to match with fellow cheaters through SBMM would be a boon at the end.
I believe in SBMM mainly because of that, but also because I like improving; I like learning what my limits are (i.e. at what KDA level do I start being out of depth), as well as what my skill floor is (i.e. at what KDA do I just stomp way more than usual), and working on both of those. To me, that's impossible if you keep getting matched with players wildly worse or better than you; you can't learn from people you don't need to exert any effort at all to beat, in the same way you can't learn from people who are so good that they're on a different plane of existence when viewed through someone of your skill level.
Great video though, certainly more constructive than most of the "SBMM bad because long queue and I don't want to sweat and whatever" reasoning I hear from people who are more reserved about SBMM.
Good dialogue. Thanks.
I understand the points of high level players problems - smaller Lobby, wait times, not being able to experiment and be creative, lag… etc.
The issue for me is that I’ve heard high skill players complain about sweaty lobbies and just wanting to relax and enjoy off meta. However…. As a lower skilled player…. Everything is sweaty for us.
LeBron doesn’t roll into jr high school games because the NBA was getting too sweaty and then posts his 180 point game on UA-cam ** I see some content guys posting their 34 KD games from control.
I’ve also heard more skilled players tell lower skilled complainers to just get better. So…. Wouldn’t that same message apply to them, if they feel like they want to try out non- meta load outs ??
I see both sides but I’m definitely leaning to what would help me- SBMM. I don’t want a 4.5 KD player wrecking me every time I spawn. Just like a 5’6 jr high basketball player doesn’t want LeBron’s balls mashed in his face as dunks on him.