Review On New 45 Cowboy Special Brass From Starline - Thanks To Walter Bunning
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- This video is a desktop review on a new offering from Starline - 45 Cowboy Special brass. This is the first UA-cam video on this new cowboy brass for 45 shooters. Thanks to Walter Bunning for sending me this new brass making this review possible.
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Excellent video as usual, FC. Only gripe I have is that you mention that .357 Mag and .45 Mag have longer cases to allow for more power (from more powder). In fact, the cases were lengthened to prevent the Mag cartridges from chambering in the Special chambers. In both instances it's possible, though not advisable, to load most "Magnum" loads into their corresponding "Special" case. I know you know this, but I'm feeling particularly pedantic this afternoon. :)
I thank you my friend for using the proper names for these 45 caliber cartridges. Too often I hear people incorrectly say "45 long Colt", when it's actually "45 Colt"
Thanks for the video..
shadowcastre - Always great to get comments from the shadowcastre... Have a great day, FC Steve
So true. People who think they know, are just showing their ignorance when they say ".45 LONG Colt." Any of these clowns who put out a UA-cam video are simply dismissed as someone who does not know.
Paco Kelley has à box of ammo from the 1800's that's labelled .45 long Colt. The name quickly distinguishes the caliber from .45 Schofield and is appropriate.It is no more wrong than calling your transportation a car rather than an automobile.
@@deandeann1541
I'm sure Paco does have an old box labeled 45 long Colt. The ammo companies and advertisers back then, just like today, did not put the proper name on the box.
As to your example of automobile and car and it being ok to call "45 Colt" 45 long Colt, it should also then be ok to refer to 454 Casull as 45 Colt extra long and 460 Smith & Wesson as 45 Colt super extra long! Or... maybe we should call all of them by their proper name! The proper designated name is... 45 Colt
@@deandeann1541 thank you
In my experience, .45 Colt cases have tended to split or crack at the case mouth after a few firings. This phenomena can be obviated to some extent by annealing the case mouths after each or every other firing. For splits or cracks larger than 2mm, I've set the cracked cases aside for trimming. Using a rotary case trimmer, I trim them to either .45 Schofield length, or to .45 ACP length, depending upon how severe the case mouth cracks are. Since I have dies for both of the shorter .45s, I use my carbide .45 Colt sizing/de-capping die for sizing/de-capping, and insert the appropriate case mouth flaring and bullet seating/crimping dies into the press for the remaining steps. To load the Schofield-length cases, I use .45 Schofield data. For the .45ACP-length cases, I used .45ACP data. In this way, I'm able to re-use my .45 Colt brass many more times than if I were to discard it once a crack shows up at the case mouth. So I guess I've been making .45 Cowboy loads for a number of years and didn't realize it! Enjoyed your video. Stay safe out there.
I like your knowledge and passion. Thanks.
I have been loading and shooting this brass since i got the original from Adirondack Jack several years. I use black powder to replicate the .44 Henry ballistics. works in my single actions and my 1860 Henry with a modified lifter. A great littls case to load..
Great idea. Thanks for showing us.
The Cowboy 45 Special has been available for many years. The headstamp was owned by 3 different companies that had Starline make it exclusively for them. Recently, Starline has started making and marketing it directly. But, you are working the wrong way on your loads. The beauty of the C45S is producing light loads for Cowboy Action Shooting. It was initially developed for light black powder loads for Cowboy Action Shooting. The 45Colt case loaded with a compressed load of black powder is very powerful with lots of recoil. So many were loading less black powder and then adding fillers to produce comfortable loads. The C45S holds just enough compressed black powder to meet requirements for power and smoke without fillers.
I have a Marlin 1894 45Colt that has a modified carrier that will feed C45S. A Winchester 1873 45Colt clone can be modified to run the C45S by replacing the elevator with one made to feed the shorter C45S.
bibbyman2 - Thanks for this fine information obviously from a cowboy action shooter participant...Interesting that you are coming back with this...I shot my 7.5 Unique in the 45CS brass, and that rascal give 1040 fps with 200 grain bullet, but the chronograph then got all kinds of errors from the lighting. Couldn't get any more reliable data for the day. I have reloaded 7.0 and 6.5 grains Unique as there is more utility for a lower power factor. As for the lever guns, good to know that parts are available to convert to feed the 45CS cases - in my Henry, you could load on Sunday and shoot all week... ;) :) ;) Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to ya, FC Steve
This. He also gives the correct name of the case/cartridge, “Cowboy .45 Special”.
So this is how "the FortuneCookie45LC" voice looks like!
I like to watch these videos as I just started reloading here in Alaska and I just got .45 "Cowboy" Special Starline brass here for the Taurus Judge Public Defender .45 Colt / .410 Bore with bobbed hammer. Good video!!!!!
Well done thanks for all the grate information 👍
Thanks for your work on our enjoyment Mr. Cookie . I have a presentation model Colt I've found some years ago in an estate sale and since promised to Manny Ca. although I've been dumbfounded with my phone but I think I'll get it figured out . Hay Manny , those pictures are coming yet .
Anyway the grandson of the original owner said there were a big deal at the turn of the twentieth century because Teddy Roosevelt carried one like mine up san yuan hill in Puerto Rico back then .
Have herd it called a flat latch colt and it is in .41caliber colt , not Special and I thought you may enjoy herring about it . Thanks be
shannon james - That Manny is a good dude on UA-cam...I have enjoyed his videos big time...he almost got me to do some paper patching, but that would mean a whole 'nother series of bullet molds to get....might still do that if I have extra time on my hands... Best to ya, and congrats on that Colt - Manny will be a lucky shooter to get a hold of that... FC Steve
What is needed from Starline is 45 Colt 1909 cases that were made specifically for the Marine Corps 1909 run of Colt New Service revolvers which used a wider rim like the 45S&W/Schofield cartridge than the standard 45 Colt for the SAA. These would work better for extraction in the Uberti/Schofield revolvers and, with a slight modification to the extractors of the Uberti 1873 rifles.
great info FC !!!! thanks so much as always!!!
Great video as always! I believe the unaltered case would work just fine in the S&W 1917 because they have a step in the cylinder that head-spaces off the mouth of the 45 ACP. Some of the early Colt 1917 will not have this step (my understanding from research, not experience). Still an attractive little round.
San McCarthy - This new brass sure has opened up possibilities - all to our good...Thanks for your helpful comments...I wouldn't mind having one of those old 1917 S & Ws...I do have a 1917 Colt, but it was converted to 455 Eley for Britain and then came back converted to 45 Colt...would have rather it was in the orignial 45 ACP, but was glad to get it at all... Best to ya, FC
Starline should consult FC 45 before their next project !
Dan O'Neill - Mighty kind of you, Dan - I wished I worked for Starline, as I would have checked out possibilities and would have proposed the slightly shorter case length... and with the performance parameters desired for this shorter case, the small change in shortness has no effect upon the performance, but increases the usefulness and versatility of this new brass just hugely - boosting sales... the write up on the new brass would include its use in 45 ACP guns and cylinders. As it is, the brass is dandy already. Good shootin' to ya, Dan -- FC Steve
Why, this is an answer waiting for a question.
I cant wait for the next video! I'm going to order some as soon as I'm done writing this. one more option for the colt... I love it
Had the same idea when cutting down Schofeild brass for an old Belgian bulldog in .450 Adams! Problem was the brass was just slightly thicker around the wall where I needed to cut it and it caused chambering issues in the conical chambers, so I reduced the inner diameter with some sand paper.
Would have saved me some trouble had I known .45 Cowboy existed.
gfd sdsdfgfds - You've outlined the problem all have had when shortening cases too much...the case walls get thicker and problems ensue...With the 45 CS brass, there isn't any of that...bullets seat just fine (even the heavy bullets - within reason, of course). Best to ya, FC
Love Walters channel.
Thanks for the info FC, as always you are one step ahead of a lot of guys on UA-cam. In a few months from now other guys will be doing videos on this. I can’t wait to get my hands on some of these. This will be super fun in my 460 SW. 460 SW Mag then a 454 then a 45 LC then a 45 cowboy...lol.
w3g3l - You've got the handle on all this for sure...Our problem is that the best performance for the big cases is when we are shooting the blasters...when we want to shoot less performance, the big cases are at a disadvantage...the more appropriate length cases provide the internal ballistic advantages we really should not ignore. So this shortest of 45 cases is actually the best if we are shooting standard loadings in the 800 fps zone. And bullet jump has been overrated. To be ridiculous, if we take your 460s and load 'em at 800 fps, the empty space in the case is cavernous. We'd have to put in some kapok to keep the powder from sloshing hither and yon. Plus the ease of compact ammo and ejection efficiency and better drop in loading appeals to shooters as well... Best to ya, FC Steve
I recently worked up a "Skeeter load" for the autorim and acp brass with a 258 gr. Keith bullet at 900 fps. The same load should work in this brass.
creekmiata - I didn't want to try that until these more sedate Green Dot loads are tested... But thanks for posting the 900 fps target for my own loads... Best to ya, FC
Well now, we have the versatile and capable 45 ...... great stuff!
E.Kent.D - My 45 ACP cylinders are going to be more used for sure - I'm looking forward to getting that standard 45 Colt performance in more compact ammo using less powder...Have a great day, FC
It would be interesting to see if these new cases can be slightly shortened to also work in an original unmodified .455 Webley. Looks like they are on to something with these! lol
joehunt1980 - Lots of possibilities...might need bullets on the big side to shoot best though...depends on the particular Webley.... Have a great day, Joe... FC Steve
I love this channel! Loaded with awesome info!
The KP - Thanks huge, and you are good folks KP..!! Have a great day, FC Steve
Looks to be well thought out.It should make some efficient loads.By the way,my wife and I have really enjoyed your travel videos :)
Jim S - Thanks for posting...They'll be more travel videos coming up, but I need to get more shooting stuff out first... Have a great day to you and your gal...FC Steve
Very nice. Love my 45 ACP loads.
The .45 Cowboy Special is a solution in search of a problem!
Thanks.
Starline , the most affordable new brass available
How awesome would it be if there was a compact revolver chambered for this round with a cylinder just long enough to hold it? Make it a five round cylinder. If I was a photoshop guy I would mock one up. It would be a very interesting revolver for concealed carry.
Charter Arms makes a .45 ACP revolver, the Pitbull, and that utilizes a special extractor system in the cylinder so that clips don't have to be used to extract and eject cases.
But now that this brass exists, it's possible that any .45 ACP revolver (except the original M1917's) will be able to shoot ammo loaded in this case.
That is enough reason right there for this round to exist I'd say. I'd be all over these cases if I had a 45acp revolver. Especially if I also owned a 45 colt. Sadly, I own neither. Not yet anyway.
I don't have the gun / case to test or the specs ... but a charter 45 acp with , no need for moon clips is different than a 45 acp Ruger . The springs that hold the ACP may not like the 45 colt special rim ??
+Dan O'Neill The tabs that are under spring pressure don't "hold" the ACP, they merely just stick into the groove of the ACP case. The ACP case is not headspacing off that little tab, it's headspacing off the case mouth inside the cylinder. The tab has one function and that's to extract the cases out of the chamber.
So, I don't think there would be any damage to the springs, but the Pitbull may not be able to extract and eject these new .45 Cowboy cases because the tab may not be deployed. Could still knock out the empties with a rod though, but kind of pointless since the Pitbull works fine with standard .45 ACP.
I have a shrouded 44 Bulldog , I think it's a great carry gun , the new style 2.5 " ( wish they were 3' ) . As much as I would like a 9mm , 40 & 45acp , I am happy with the 44 . The value of a 45 is if the bullet will not expand & feeding is not an issue .. best to go 185 gr full wadcutter for full Cal hole in & out . In the test I have done 180 gr hot hollow points will expand & are user friendly in the 44 special . I will get some full wadcutters some day & see how they work for a lighter power load for people that can't take the hot hollow points . As a back up to your auto loader a Charter in the same Cal would be great . Two is ONE , one is NONE !
I do not know what the loading data is for this new 45 cowboy specials. However, I do know the 45 Long Colt is rated for 14,000 psi compared to the 45acp which is 21,000 psi. Trimming them, and loading with 45acp data, so they can fit in the M1917 is OK because it’s rated for the 45acp, but shooting them in a revolver chambered for the 45LC is exceeding the psi, I wouldn’t do it...
cal30m1 most, if not all, modern 45lc revolvers can handle far more than the 14,000 psi. The 45LC Super Blackhawk is routinely loaded past 44magnum levels. On top of handloaders, there are actual 45LC factory loadings at this level from Corbon, Underwood, and others. That's not to say what I would or would not do, and it's certainly not reloading advise, just stating a common practice of the reloading community and several manufacturers.
Starling doesn't recommend using .45 ACP load data, my guess for that same reason. Could possible ruin an old original Colt or similar firearm not capable of higher pressures.
Cameron Crespo I don’t know what star line’s recommendation is, I suspect due to liability issues, it’s very low psi. I heard FC45LC say he’s loading to 45ACP specs. Personally, I know a modern Ruger, S&W chambered for 45LC can handle it. I always think years after I’m dead, I see my grand kids loading up a 100 year old SAA with my 45 cowboy loads...
cal30m1 there's an easy solution. Shoot all your ammo before you kick the bucket. :D
cal30m1 There is no "LONG" in 45Colt. 45 Colt Period
I wonder what the brass wall thickness difference be between 45 colt brass trimmed down to 45 cowboy special length. Im really curious if they are the same or if the 45 colt brass wall would be a tad thicker. Thanks as always for the upload and information.
just tried these with 17gr of bp with 230gr poly coated bullets and taper crimp. in my brass frame cap n ball revolver. it gave a very very nice group. wish i had a chronograph tho.
I recently ordered some brass from the Starline site (for a bit cheaper than Midway offered it), and I saw this new brass on there. Since I recently started loading 45LC, I’ve been left wondering what I should do with the short cases (most of which are stamped Hornady). Do I toss them, or trim them to match 45 Schofield, or this new offering? I haven’t made up my mind yet, but I’m watching how these perform for you with some anticipation.
(I sure wish Hornady would just make their handgun brass full length...)
Thanks vettelover2009! Right now I'm leaning towards trimming to ~1/10" shorter than full length 45LC so it's kinda like the difference between the magnum/special cases. I've wondered about the case wall thickness, and about how far down the 45LC dies can be screwed into the press and still work on the shorter cases.
I don't have any 45ACP cylinders like FC, but it will be very interesting to see how these work out for him. They should be quite efficient in terms of powder use.
vettelover2009 - Nice thread you guys got going...will be testing this CS brass this weekend...will be good to see how it shoots in both the 45 Colt and the 45 ACP cylinders - I'm using the longer bearing surface 452 252 SWC as well as the shorter bearing 452 200 SWC long nose Lee bullets. The squat little 160 grainer is for CAS light recoil fast shooting, but I personally don't have that Lee mold (just about have most of the others though). Perhaps it's because I tried 155 grain SWCs in my 1911s back in the IPSC / Steel days and that bullet never did that well for me (took a lot of powder to get major power). Have a great day, FC Steve
FortuneCookie45LC,
I've watched all of your 45 Cowboy Special brass videos and I'm going to purchase some for myself too.
I have a Ruger New Model Blackhawk convertible with 5 1/2" barrel in 45 Colt / 45 ACP also. I am a veteran reloader and I will be trimming to your suggested 0.872" brass length, so it will function properly in my 45 ACP cylinder.
I have the RCBS 3-piece 45 ACP carbide reloading die set and I have a Lee 45 ACP factory crimp die.
I'm considering doing all the reloading for the 45 Cowboy Special cartridge with my 45 ACP dies, and using the Lee 45 ACP factory crimp die in for the final crimp.
Thank you for all your videos,
Andrew
yooper_man The 45 Cowboy Special brass may work in your particular 45 ACP cylinder without having to trim (Starline was asked about this - and their reply was that they made the brass so that it should chamber in 45ACP Blackhawk cylinders OK). Problem is that the short Cowboy Specials will not cycle in lever guns (unless a gunsmith makes modifications). Good shootin' to ya, FC Steve
FC Steve, That's great news from Starline. I will definitely purchase enough to last me. I'll check for fitting and trim accordingly. Thank you, Andrew
My first thought was that this was going to be a recreation of the .45 Colt Gov i.e. .45 Short Colt (yes contrary to the whiners there was a .45 Short Colt) but it looks like it is quite a bit shorter. Probably too short for lever action use.
It would be fun to see how short the long brass can be trimmed and still cycle reliably in lever guns.
Mk shffr...
The 45 Colt Government was a shortened version of 45 Colt. However...it Never wore the official name of 45 short Colt!
Therefore there Never was a 45 short Colt... and so we are left with the confusion and a misnomer of, 45 long Colt!
Call it what you will but all of my reloading manuals and SAAMI call it by its proper name "45 Colt" and not 1 of them says that it's whinning!
1. Yes, but what was the reasoning and the purpose of the 45 Cowboy when 45 S&W/Schofield brass is available from Starline?
2. If the Ruger 45 ACP cylinder is shaved at the rear to take 45 AutoRim, it will still take the 45 ACP which headspaces on the case mouth. Then, shorten the 45 Cowboy cases until they also headspace on the case mouth. The Ruger ACP cylinder would then shoot 45 ACP, 45 AutoRim, and short 45 Cowboy. The shortened 45 Cowboy, standard 45 Cowboy, and 45 S&W/Schofield will work in Uberti/Schofield revolvers chambered for 45 Colt and the lucky few that were made in 45 S&W/Schofield.
Another words it is a slightly longer case than a 455 weebly. You forgot the 44 american. It is slightly shorter than the 44 Russian and came before.
Dawg poppin
I kept saying, "Wait, we already have that in the 45 autorim." Then at 6:00 Cookie Ask the same question, and answers it.
Brandon Salyer - Thanks, Brandon - some viewers do the same and then fly away...without ever catching the whole drift... Have a great day, FC
That is genius!!!
Sunbear805 - Apparently, the 45 Auto Rim roll crimp die can be used...all the better to make roll crimp ammo with this 45 Cowboy Special brass...!! Thanks for your enthusiastic comment..!! FC Steve
Just guessing here, the only use of this for me is easier ejection being shorter than .45 Colt. Also, I have a pet load of 10 grains Trailboss which isn't gonna fit the new Cowboy special. But I do like Starline products.
Whilst I can see that the short cases would be a huge benefit with the tiny amount of propellant that we use in Colt 45 loads,( 5 grns always looks very lonely in the bottom of such a big capacity case ), I am a bit dubious about the amount of bullet jump that we will have, I will be watching the shooting trials of this short case with interest, we can, of course, always trim back a standard Colt 45 case to make the powder burn more efficient if we find the huge unsupported jump does not effect accuracy.
Englishman French - Thanks for all your fine comments...Bullet jump in revolvers has always been controversial. When I was shooting PPC, my favorite revolver was my Bill Davis custom - it was built off a Model 65 S & W 357 magnum...lots of bullet jump with 148 grain 38 special wadcutters. Bill would never have used a model 65 357 if bullet jump prevented him from producing the accurate PPC guns he was famous for. The doggone gun shot 1 1/2" at 50 yards from Davis with Winchester match wadcutter ammo. Then there were those that had custom guns with shortened cylinders to provide minimum bullet jump with the wadcutters, because they believed in minimum bullet jump. Those guns did not take the PPC world by storm or we would have all been shooting those. Ever since then, bullet jump has not been a concern for me - once I got sweet spot loads, the accuracy was there and the length of the cases in the cylinders equating to bullet jump had no direct bearing in my revolvers. Our revolvers are not the same kind of animal that conjoined chamber - barrel guns are. If you have concluded that bullet jump is big for your revolver considerations, then it indeed is big. A lot of shooters are in the same club. But one thing for sure, there is room on the shooting line for all of us...Powder space related to good burn seems to be important.... and there is even some mysticism when I cast my bullets...sometimes I feel like chanting...hhmmmmmmmm.... yes, another good pour..!! Good shootin' to ya, FC Steve
Fortune Cookie 45LC : Yes, I am sure the loading percentage in the case is a huge factor in something like a Colt 45, there is so little powder volume that I often hesitate to load these 5 grn loads, I have also used a foam wad over the powder to at least keep it all in one end of the case, but of course it really is meant to house 35 grns of black powder, I will try loading the shortened cases to get a better volume percentage, but the minimum bullet jump has always been my goal due to the fact that it is the one factor that is always mentioned in the search for better accuracy, I am sure there are a lot of myths going around in our hobby, myths that are repeated without any proof being given, to be able to get groups like yours at 50 yds blows the myth right out of the water !
Englishman French - Out of curiosity, I just viewed one of Hickok45s old videos where he was testing the Taurus Judge. When he shot 45 Colts in the gun, he said that many state that the Judge wasn't accurate with 45 Colts because of the shortness of the round in the long straight 410 cylinder (he didn't say bullet jump) - so he wanted to test that for himself... Although the gun shot a foot high at 15 yards or so, he was getting groups that told him the gun was accurate...he then proceeded to knock down rams and pigs on his hillside as well as hit the 85 yard gong...his conclusion was that the gun was accurate - he just needed to figure out where to hold - even with the actual long bullet jump in that gun...Does this prove the bullet jump stuff is overrated? Probably not enough to really be convincing... Have a great day, FC
FortuneCookie45LC: That is a very interesting test ! If anything could be an extreme situation a Colt 45 in a .410" chamber has to be, the high point of impact could be due to increased velocity caused by the bullet "jump" before the rifling was engaged, not sure what barrel length he had, but that could give a velocity increase as well, it is such extreme cases such as this that can prove/disprove these old sayings, after all, many people repeat what the read somewhere without seeing any evidence . Not very scientific ! Many thanks for your input. Chris B.
Your test show a short case can be acc . , my mind says a long case would = less bullet jump or rattle , I have never used trail boss , but think that would also help cowboy loads . I can see the case will eject better with a short case . I am all for more choices !!! Thanks
Dan - We'll see how these loads shoot this weekend...A lot depends on the range results... Have a great day, FC Steve
Love it. Not only can this be used in .45 Colt, but .45 ACP revolvers and possibly with other .45 ACP revolvers, no trimming may be needed.
This is quite a bit of serendipity as Charter Arms recently announced they were coming out with a .45 Colt revolver and I thought that was going to be the smallest .45 revolver that didn't require moon clips, but now this new brass from Starline may be a game changer for all .45 revolvers.
Can't wait to see the loading and shooting results.
I am wondering if it would function in a 45 LC carbine
R C - You and I are both going to have to try that, but if my Henry Big Boy does feed these, I'll be surprised for sure...but pleasantly surprised... Have a great day, FC
Really cool video, found this by accident ! Did not come to my inbox :-( But glad I found it, love the Cowboy stuff :-)
I guess we keep that away from our 45 ACP brass, maybe I'm wrong Steve, but do we really need this kind of brass ?
Nick J - Hello to ya, Nick - when these rounds drop into the chambers with a snick, I'd say yes. My 45 ACP rounds go in with a push and sometimes the cylinder rotation is sticky. If they don't shoot as advertised, I'd say we don't need this new brass. But the cowboy action shooters should really appreciate these... Best to ya, FC Steve
Nice Hat.
LIVIN CINCY - Thanks for noticing... That is a US Air Force hat that my younger daughter gave me - she is in the Air Force Reserve. Have a great day, Carlos... FC Steve
I never had a hat like that back in the day...
It was the cold war and the USAF was dressed like Greyhound Buss Drivers while on 'clandestine operations' traveling home. The Department of the Army & Navy trained their members to point out we looked like a buss driver. We were victims of Fashion and still won the cold war...
I did get to shoot the S&W 38 Revolvers that the USAF had. They were more accurate than the M-9. The M-9 is an accurate pistol but the revolvers had adjustable sights on them so they had an advantage. Jets & Six Guns...
I've been asking Starline to bring back the .500 Special for about 2 years now - despite having "featherweight" loads, I'd rather keep the open air case volume down. They won't bite - they say they don't enough requests for it - I pity those guys who bought those .500 special-only revolvers years ago and are having to trim down brass just to keep feeding their toys. =/
BTW, how close is this new "Cowboy special" to a .455 Webley brass? That might be a great option for guys with unshaved cylinder Webleys now too.
SeanPwnery - Good point...there's possibilities there. All the Webley guys out there are going to have to check out whether they can use the new 45CS brass... Offhand, as long as their Webleys do not work with 45 Auto Rims, the 45 CS brass should work... Best to ya, FC
Seems like Starline would have looked at the 45 ACP vs. the 45 Cowboy Special case length and use in the 45 ACP convertible cylinders and intentionally made the length incompatible. Are you sure there is no issue?
toy collector - I will be contacting Starline on all this after Walter Bunning does so first. There may come all kinds of response from Starline - someone on that end may feel threatened that they did not cover the bases on this. Or their particular Ruger Convertible 45 ACP cylinders might accept the 45 CS brass as is (just because mine do not doesn't necessarily mean that all are set up that way) - that is why I suggested in the video that shooters should check their own Convertibles - the brass may be fine straight up. However, we shooters are simply thankful for a great company to provide us with products. I'll be looking forward to shooting this weekend to prove the concept... Even in the advertising write up by Starline - they stress that they have created 45 ACP length brass with a rim for 45 Colt chambers, but that use of 45 ACP reloading data may not be a straight across transfer - strength of gun must still be considered. Indeed, the case length is akin to 45 ACP. What that tells me is they have prioritized for 45 Colt - brass length for the shorter case was completely arbitrary for them and they went with 45 ACP length. They haven't considered any merging with 45 ACP cylinders a la Ruger Convertibles. The new 45 CS brass does not chamber in my 45 ACP cylinder because the case mouth hits the headspace shoulder in the cylinder too early - the rim has not contacted the back of the cylinder yet. So I trimmed until the rim bottoms against the cylinder face and the gun functions beautifully. Only fly in the concept is if I overtrimmed and light primer strikes result...if so, answer is to just trim less until primer strikes are normal while still allowing cylinder functioning - that balance point only needs to be found...However, from my experience with revolvers, the rim at full seating also has perfect headspace like any rimmed cartridge in any revolver - I'd be very surprised if any ignition problems happen. Another possible problem is their recommendation of use of 45 Auto Rim roll crimper to crimp the reloads. Shortening the cases might possibly cause that die not to be able to provide the roll crimp we may seek. However, if my testing of the taper crimps shows no bullet movement, that would be moot - if problematic, my answer to that would be to take one of my Lee 45 ACP expander dies and turn down the expander plug .001" to provide more bullet tension. Full clarity will come by next Monday... Best to ya, FC Steve
Thanks for the detailed explanation FC. My question was to make sure you would be safe, so you will be able to take your lovely wife on her next great adventure!
TC - Thanks for your remarks...much appreciated...turns out that Starline left this brass at the length they did because it is supposed to chamber OK in Ruger Convertible 45 ACP cylinders...mine just are a bit on the tight side so I have to trim their brass a bit...They already considered this, but apparently, they left their brass right at the max length for 45 ACP .898". Best to ya, FC
45 long Colt is correct it just depended on the manufacturer and what they called it. They are the same long Colt/Colt just a naming convention by different manufacturers. so both are correct.
Paul barela...
45 long Colt is a misnomer and is spread around as misinformation and is incorrect. There Never was a 45 short Colt therefore 45 Colt is the only correct name.
What was your AFSC in the USAF? I was AMMO...
That is a sexy hat.
i think these would work good in my bond arms 410/45 colt derringer. nice.
hk93shooter - The shorter case ammo is certainly capable yet handy. Best to ya, Steve
Would there be an advantage to turning a small forcing cone in the throat of a 45 colt when using smaller lg. Shell like a colt cowboy? When the bullet hits the throat there is a sharp corner that could shave lead from the bullet causing the bullet to cock and hurt accuracy. Since the bullet is smaller then the chamber it could cause problems.
Pretty sure you jist created your namesake cartridge. Would you prepare a soft shooting, little bit smokey load? That'd be ideal to me.
Cybe - I already have my namesake on a lot of cartridge heads - every one with FC on it means FortuneCookie in my own mind's eye anyway... Best to ya, FC
@fortunecookie45lc do you think the 45 cowboy load would work in lever?
Good information, yet as one whom enjoys both .45 ACP & .45Colt, I'm left wondering " what's the point " ?
George Heil - It's like shooting 45 ACP out of either cylinders if one owns a 45 Colt/45ACP Blackhawk Convertible revolver. Or shooting 45 ACP if one only has the 45 Colt revolver. The ammo is more efficident than shooting same fps out of the larger cartridges like 45 Colt or 45 Schofield. Good shootin' to ya, Steve
@@FortuneCookie45LC
Thanks ... cheers!
Can you shoot .45 Schofield in Winchester '73 clones? Can you shoot .45 Cowboy Special in '73 clones?
Don't forget about 45 Auto Rim.
Started watching, had to deal with kid, then watched the rest. So yes finally got around to finishing last part.
MrThomass281 - In line with your reply, UA-cam analysis reveals that most videos on YT are not watched to the end by far. That's just the way it is and all YT posters know this...Even Hickok45 videos - doesn't matter what gun or caliber or quality of trigger he is shooting - I watch all his videos - once he shoots the first couple of two liters, there's no point in watching any more - he's going to hit all the targets on the hill because he does that on every video. I try to have new information or new twists on old stuff on my vids...Thanks for watching... Best to ya, FC Steve
FortuneCookie45LC To me that is the beauty of You Tube. You don't have to watch a video all the way through in one sitting.
I am thinking about getting a .454 casull. It should shoot all those +
The RD - Yes, sir....and the loadings in the 45 CS brass will be like shooting 22s... Good shootin' to ya, FC Steve
I guess you can tell us how these 45 cowboy loads run in a 460 S&W now.
GunFun ZS - Might be very interesting to see what a closed breech 20" barrel will do indeed... Hello to the GunFun ZS..!! FC Steve
I thought you were saying these wouldn't feed in your leverguns. However, if you are willing to single feed, maybe you would get a good S.D.? Or would the huge jump make that a waste of time?
okay FortuneCookie45 I have a question for you now What dies do we use to reload them answer me that Would I have to buy two different dies just to reload this brass the .45 colt/.45acp dies right !
Did you try loading and roll crimping the full length 45cs brass? I bet the roll crimping would allow the round to chamber
david malloy - The Dillon taper crimp die actually did that semi roll crimp - it worked splendidly and the ammo shot nicely. Doing the roll crimp with the spacer in the Lee die to allow the crimp stem to reach the short 45 CS case did not work better than the Dillon die and required the spacer to be put in as well. Good shootin' to ya, FC Steve
I have two black powder Guns I converted to 45 colt and 32 sw. they can only fire cowboy loads. I took the bullet of a 32 round and there is literally only a few flakes of powder in it. Do these really mainly just use the primer or did I get defective ammo? Can these be reloaded as they are very hard to find and expensive? Any info you can give me on these would be greatly appreciated. I used a kirst type conversion cylinder. .
Just wondering, F.C. would that case fit without trimming if it was loaded and had a good roll crimp applied? Speaking of roll crimp, would a hand loader need a .45 auto rim seat/crimp die or perhaps a friend with a lathe to shorten a .45 colt die?
I wonder how much work it would be to get these to work with a .455 Webley cylinder...
Corey Johan - Marlon Brando in the movie The Longest Day - "That German over there saw me parachute down and was going to finish me...but I got him first with this (holds up the Webley)... He's got his boots on the wrong feet." I don't own a 455 Webley, but a friend of mine who now lives in Nevada does / did. It was a fine Webley, but I can't remember what Mark it was...He told me that he could shoot 45 Auto Rims in it, he never shot the scarce and expensive 455 ammo. What that tells me is use of this new 45 CS brass will have excessive headspace (there will be excessive space between the chambered cartridge and the breechface resulting in light primer strikes. If your Webley chambers 45 Auto Rims, you will have this problem - solution would be to shoot 45 Auto Rim. If your Webley does not accept 45 Auto Rims, then you have a very good chance that the 45 CS brass will work nicely. However, 455 Webleys might have big cylinder throats, and if so, you will have problems getting best accuracy with cast bullets unless you get 'em .001" bigger than the cylinder throats - powder coating your bullets may very well get you there. Plus, you'll have to get the biggest neck expander plugs you can find for your expander die. Best to ya, FC
What is the advantage of using the 45 Cowboy Special case in the 45 ACP cylinder, especially since you have to trim the 45 Cowboy Special cases?
Eli Feasel - Most cowboy action shooters do not use the 45 ACP cylinders if they have Convertible Blackhawks. Reason is that 45 ACP reloads in the Convertible are very finicky on case length and bullet seating depth = sticky cylinder action. Also, owners of 45 Convertibles seldom shoot their 45 ACP cylinders preferring to use them only to shoot "cheap 45 ACP" plinking ammo - when they want to shoot "good" ammo, their 45 Colt cylinders are front and center. The advantage of the new brass is to have ammo that drops in with that nice snick all revolver shooters appreciate - that smooth functioning revolver shooters crave - and great performance and accuracy with all manner of cast bullets. If my testing confirms all of that, the 45 ACP cylinders are going to be like the gal that went to Paris and came back with unrecognized elegance, class and beauty - call it the 45 Sabrina cylinders. I might even entitle the video "Come meet Sabrina..." but they'll have a hard time bringing up the content with that title... Best to ya, FC Steve
Will the new bullets work for the ruger new vaquero 45colt
Will it function in a lever rifle?
About the same as the 455 webly
I wonder if it will feed in a Rossi M92 in 45 Colt ?
What dies did you use, the 45 Auto rim crimp and the Lyman m series expander?
I know this is an old video, but I wonder if these will cycle reliably through a lever action rifle?
Short cartridges sometimes jam up In a lever action. FC showed this problem.
Can you run the 45 cowboy special in 1873 lever action
Do you mark your trimmed cases in any way?
I don't have a convertible Blackhawk so I am curious Fortune, can the convertible fire 45 GAP from that 45 ACP cylinder?
Jon Lockhart - Great question... No, the GAP will just drop into the 45 ACP cylinder too deep to do any good...Best Regards to ya, FC
FortuneCookie45LC that is good to know.
Can these 45 cowboys function in a 45 LC lever rifle?
You ever use imr 4227 in 45 colt non-ruger firearms
gunman9090 - I've never used any IMR4227 but that can all change once I get my 460 S&W...Best to ya, FC
Is there a chance that shortening that case has reduced the case volume to less than a 45 acp causing an increase in pressure?
No because you just decrease the amount of powder to avoid that if it's an issue or use a powder that's not as dense.
Ben Dennis - Thanks for your concerns - they do need to be put out there...To add to what Dick Tickles posted, the 45ACP itself is not as efficient in terms of powder vs case volumn - that is the reason the 45 GAP came in...What this means is that this new 45 CS brass has the case volumn required to stoke loads in excess of standard 45 ACP ammo actually past the +P level (but not much more). The small amount of shortening in this video still leaves the 45 CS with very near 45 ACP space well ahead of the GAP. Have a great day, FC
.455 webley may be a universal fit....
....Or if you take down the rim THICKNESS(not diameter) just a hair on .872 case length, it should work in .455 webley also.....
Why is it special
You lost me. Every time I looked up you were talking about every 45 cal case BUT the Cowboy Special... All I got out of the video is that it's shorter. Shorter we don't need. You'll run into the same problem as those who only shoot 38 Special out of their 357 chambers. What we need is THINNER to more easily expand and seal the chamber with the typically lighter loads. Especially in rifles.
What does this give you that .45 Auto-Rim does not?
WARNING: Pressure in the 45 ACP is far greater than that of the 45 Colt pistols. Not good to use 45 Auto data with cartridges to be use in 45 Colt guns.
45 ACP max pressure 21,000 psi
45 Colt max pressure 14,000 psi/14,000 CUP
[disclaimer: every thing here below is for educational use only!]
CAUTION: If one proceeds in this endeavor they should get the most helpful "Midway USA LoadMap 45 ACP" in order to be able to choose a safe powder charge to consider. As some starting charges are well over the 14000 PSI of the 45 Colt. See the Alliant Bullseye load data on page 70, in the USA LoadMap 45 ACP, to see just what could happen if one simply willy nillingly picks out any old 45 Auto load data and tries it out in the Cowboy 45 Special cartridges, as this starting load is way over safe working pressures of the 45 Colt. Also never go anywhere near the medium charge weight load data, as many of the medium charge weights for the 45 Auto are above the 14,000 psi of the 45 Colt gun's working pressure too. And keep in mind that any load near the 14,000 psi range would defeat the whole reason behind the Cowboy 45 Special case for shooting light loads!
And while the 45 Auto Rim and Cowboy 45 Special are just a few thousandths of an inch different in length and diameter the 45 Auto Rim's maximum rating of 15,000 CUP [lower than the that of the 45 Auto] is still higher than that of the 45 Colt, so while the starting loads for the 45 Auto Rim can be used in the Cowboy 45 Special cases, the maximum 45 Auto Rim loads will still generate unsafe pressures. Always start low and work up with caution. And keep in mind you should be shooting for a light load in the first place.
But why play around with fire? Below are proven safe and effective load data for the Cowboy 45 Special cartridge. [again: this is for educational use only!]
Yes Actual Cowboy 45 Special load data can be found in the 17th edition of "Cartridges Of The World", page 486:
And on these notes I hope y'all have a blast! The Good kind that is.
Steve, I did some digging and somebody informed me that there's a guy that makes carriers that allow shooting .45 Cowboy Special in certain lever action rifles.Go figure, he's about 30 minutes away from me. Link below:
thesmithshop.com/cbs45.html