If you check out his blog he compares the Old Testament to stories about George Washington. Washington was a real person, of which we know many details. There are also tons of stories told about him whose historicity cannot be verified and whose importance is as moral tales, i.e. chopping down the cherry tree. The line between moral fable and history can get blurred and it has only been about 250 years. In the same way it is not a matter of saying, "this prophet was real, but that one is not". It is more a matter, "all the stories are intended to teach moral stories, both one with accurate details and the ones with inaccurate ones".
@@kenhilker2507 I doubt any of them would be considered "accurate" by today's standards, which didn't exist until less than 300 years ago. The closer one gets to the present the more accurate. Anything before King David has no outside historical verification. That leaves a lot of room for ambiguity.
Thanks for these videos by Ben Spackman. He has helped me in recent years to deal with my questions as I tried to follow the LDS teaching to keep learning. Once you dig deeper into the Bible, many thorny questions arise. Ben is there to help me through it.
It's also interesting to note the comment made by Moroni in Ether 1:3-- where he skips the early history period from Adam to the Tower (including Noah's flood) -- because he says that the Jews already have this. Moroni is looking at a record *independent* of the 5 books of Moses, from a people who broke away even before Abraham. So the narrative Moroni is saying is already had among the Jews is a narrative that existed before the Israelites existed, before Moses existed, before Abraham existed... it's interesting to point that out. This isn't just an Israelite thing.
From the Come, Follow Me manual: Don’t expect the Old Testament to present a thorough and precise history of humankind. That’s not what the original authors and compilers were trying to create. Their larger concern was to teach something about God-about His plan for His children, about what it means to be His covenant people, and about how to find redemption when we don’t live up to our covenants. Sometimes they did it by relating historical events as they understood them-including stories from the lives of great prophets. Genesis is an example of this, as are books like Joshua, Judges, and 1 and 2 Kings. But other Old Testament writers did not aim to be historical at all. Instead, they taught through works of art like poetry and literature. The Psalms and the Proverbs fit in this category. And then there are the precious words of prophets, from Isaiah to Malachi, who spoke the word of God to ancient Israel-and, through the miracle of the Bible, still speak to us today. Did all of these prophets, poets, and compilers know that their words would be read by people all over the world thousands of years later? We don’t know. But we marvel that this is exactly what has happened. Nations rose and fell, cities were conquered, kings lived and died; but the Old Testament outlasted them all, from generation to generation, from scribe to scribe, from translation to translation. Of course some things were lost or modified, and yet somehow so much was miraculously preserved. These are just a few things to keep in mind as you read the Old Testament this year. Maybe God preserved these ancient writings because He knows you and what you are going through. Maybe He has prepared a spiritual message for you in these words, something that will draw you closer to Him and build your faith in His plan and His Beloved Son. Perhaps He will lead you to a passage or an insight that will bless someone you know-a message you can share with a friend, a family member, or a fellow Saint. There are so many possibilities. Isn’t that exciting to think about? (...) n most Christian versions of the Old Testament, the books are organized differently from how they were arranged when they were first compiled into one collection. So while the Hebrew Bible groups the books into three categories-the law, prophets, and writings-most Christian Bibles arrange the books into four categories: law (Genesis-Deuteronomy), history (Joshua-Esther), poetic books (Job-Song of Solomon), and prophets (Isaiah-Malachi). Why are these categories important? Because knowing what kind of book you are studying can help you understand how to study it.
Yes, the new CFM manual is very subtly steering us away from an "all-scripture-is-historical-fact" interpretive tradition. I appreciate that a lot. It's not as blunt as I'd like it to be, but baby steps. As Plato said, “Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow.”
I saw the title of the video and thought "No way, they wouldn't dare". I really liked the discussion of what the story likely would have meant to the original audience. That's very much worth considering. It highlights a loving God, in comparison to more traditional (at the time) views of gods. This is interesting, because from another perspective, the story shows a violent God mass-killing humans of all sizes. But to the original audience, the deep concern of God about human violence, and renewing things to start fresh and allowing humans a second chance to not become violent again - but instead live the way God intended. Seen that way it's inspirational. The mass-killing part is still troubling to me, but I can see better now value in this story. Thanks again!
@@loridavis7086 Hmm, I do still see mass killing as a terrible thing. That's kinda why people such as Hitler have a bad reputation. Authority and power does not excuse violence, even for God. But many people throughout history have justified extreme violence by saying their God commanded it. Very sad.
Yeah, god ending someone’s life is not the same as a human in this life doing it. It’s like if we’re all playing a basketball team God as the coach has the right to bench any of his players at any time, there is nothing wrong about that at all, but if I hit another player to where they can’t play anymore i would have broken the rules and will have to pay for it. If you believe in an afterlife that God has power over then him deciding your time is up is just part of his plan.
@@ThoseOneGuysInc I respectfully disagree that powe/authority justifies violence. Not too long ago, and in many places, human father's could beat and kill their children with the same justification. It's not moral. Not good. The world today has a higher morality almost everywhere. The root of goodness and spiritually is "Love others AS self" - not power over others. Think Jesus saying "As you have done to the least you have done to me". Jesus knew what he was talking about, but christians ironically reach past Jesus toward the God who massacres, and still demands worship.
I would recommend to stop and consider the following: If Adam and his posterity lived in the vicinity of the heartland of the United States prior to the flood, then just how did a regional flood land Noah in the new location of Mesopotamia? And how did his Ark come to rest on the "mountains of Ararat"? Gen 8:4
I mean, if it was a regional, but destructive flood, imo, the water flooded out to sea. Water travels the path of least resistance. The bulk of the water from said flood could have carried the ark across the ocean thru waves. But then again, that is my own opinion. The other one I like best is the events of the “Younger Dryas cataclysm” causing the flood via tsunamis (this forgoes the idea of a regional flood).
@@pauldwigans4193 we don't have to agree with the worldly views. I think it's important to listen to people we don't agree with. Gives me the ability to understand the other side so I can help people better understand the gospel. Don't despair my friend. There is plenty of evidence to prove the flood was world wide.
I rely on the general authorities to explain scripture, not BYU professors. Until they say different, I'll have to stick with my original understandings.
To be honest, I don't have a problem thinking of it either way - either as a parable or as literal. I understand that there needs to be an explanation for where the water went, but I don't see it as something that needs to bother my testimony in any way.
I've always kind of dismissed the story of Noah as just weird and something that just never fit reality. So I've kind of had to push it aside in the back shelf of my mind. You've given me a new way to look at it and appreciate it. Thank you!
Unfortunately we actually believe science to be highly advanced. Look at the people who CONTROL the science narrative. They are very very very controlling. They tend to be atheists and will never substantiate anything about God or miracles. I don't have a problem with looking to understand the seemingly illogical miracles that happens in the Bible, we just cannot use incomplete science either.. There is so much science out there that absolutely proves the flood was a worldwide event. The problem is that science will never accept this science because it does not fit their narrative. They worship at the altar of evolution and Darwin. Science is simply built on a sandy foundation and will fall. We will eventually understand the truth, as I respectively disagree with Ben... And I LOVE science and technology. 😊
The matter of truth (comments at 11:20) can often be determined by purpose. Take for example a map of the MTA (NYC subway). Is it "true"? Its geography is intentionally distorted, north is not at the top, distances are inaccurate, but as a tourist, if I need to get from Queens to Uptown, it will get me there. So it's true to its purpose,. However, asking it to do something it was never designed to do is unfair and irresponsible on my part. Scripture is much the same, and when we recognize the purpose, all the other distortions and inaccuracies (often matters of 'holy tradition' anyway) are resolved. Scripture in general, and Genesis in particular is not an episode of "How it's Made", but rather, simply How to Understand Your Relationship with Deity and Mankind. All the Gordian Knots we twist ourselves into over minor details were easily resolved once I figured this out. I only wish I could have figured it out 25 years ago.
I really like this. I don't care if it is literal or metaphor and parable. I know God is there. I have faith He loves me. One day, when I pass over, I will probably think about it and think, "huh, that was sort of a non issue."
I feel in the Bible when it says the world, it meant the known world of God’s people at that time and the animals in that world. God guided the Ark to a region that he ordained for Noah and his family to start anew and bring forth the renewal of mankind again and God’s purpose. God has control of the elements (remember the parting of the Red Sea?).
I have struggled with this story more than anything else and this type of explanation helped me so much in the beginning it let me stay. I am now open to all to the crazy miraculous that we cannot even comprehend to the natural and logical course of what we can see that happened knowing that it is somewhere in the middle and we will know in the next life.
"The stories of the Garden of Eden and the Flood have more than any others damaged the credibility of the biblical message, being the easiest to visualize, popularize, and satirize of any Bible accounts... it requires no effort of the imagination for a six-year-old to convert concise, straightforward Sunday-school recitals into the vivid images that will stay with him for the rest of his life. These stories are discredited as nursery tales because they are nursery tales, retaining forever the forms they take in the imaginations of small children, defended by grownups who refuse to distinguish between childlike faith and thinking as a child when it is time to “put away childish things.” (1 Corinthians 13:11.) " -Hugh Nibley, "Enoch the Prophet" Thank you Ben and Saints Unscripted for sharing this message. Put away childish things and don't build your faith on the historicity of fairy tales, it is not a strong foundation.
This is interesting. I have no solid opinion on the literalness of the flood. I would like to hear how Latter-day Saints who dismiss the flood address scriptures in the BOM, D&C, and PoGP that also show a flood. Particularly Ether 13:2. This indicates a global flood. I have never heard anyone discuss these modern revelations when discussing the flood.
But they don't. All Ether claims is that Moroni believed that there was a Flood, no eplicitl explanations of how wide it was. None of those scriptures mention an explicit global flood in the plain English. Metaphonically they *could* be about a global flood, or a local one. None of the LDS canon is explicit.
THANK YOU for addressing this Ben, I've felt this way about the Flood story for a long time, but it's nice to hear it from someone who isn't trying to convince me that all religion is fiction. Personally, I side with the idea that Noah was a real figure, but maybe it was more of a localized flood, and he saved twos and sevens of all the animals in the area (or even of his own pastures). That doesn't make Noah any less of a prophet, or the story any less of a miracle. Heck, people bare testimonies about God helping them find their favorite shirt! Why should we hold Biblical miracles to a different standard than our own?
because a lot of people's personal testimonies are based on the pre-supposition that a God exists which can do the things described in the Bible. If more people realized that God didn't literally do many of the feats ascribed to him in the OT and NT, then they might be less likely to credit God for finding their shirt.
I've never thought of the "baptism of the earth" as literal but rather symbolic (whether a global flood actually happened or not). Because the earth will one day be made celestial, I've always seen it's symbolic baptism purely in parallel to our own need for literal baptism in order to become celestial ourselves, not because the earth had need for repentance. Christ didn't need to be baptized either except to "fulfill all righteousness"--in other words, to be obedient to the Father's commandments and the holy order of things.
Appreciate the good faith theory. That said, to me it seems perfectly sensible that the earth would be baptized by water and then by fire. Your guest counters this with, "Does the earth have a will? Has it sinned?" To which I'd say: Christ didn't sin but was nevertheless baptized to fulfill all righteousness, and there are scriptures with language about the earth longing to be cleansed of the blood and corruption, even to become sanctified. As per historical evidence for a flood, I think many people underestimate the degree to which our fairly young scientific disciplines have been manipulated (Victorian era academic invention of the "-ologies," e.g. archeology, geology, paleontology, etc.).
There is precedent in the scriptures of other peoples who survive by building a boat-- Lehi's family and the Jaredites (and the Mulekites too!) So, I don't see any problem with Noah's story having an essence of truth that involves his family escaping the destruction of the people by building a boat and traveling somewhere, and perhaps there even being a big storm that involves lots of water. And just as with the Jaredites and Lehi, they landed at a new land and started a new authoritative dispensation.
It also works great in a metaphoric setting. If a flood represents an apostasy, then the boat would represent a restoration. Noah stands at the head of his dispensation as do all other prophets who have been called to restore or sustain alive the gospel on the Earth.
The fact that Lehi, Mulek, Mohonri Moriancumr, Omer, Alma, and Mosiah fled a bad situation by walking away, should make us consider a prophet walking away more likely than boating away. Walking away wasn't an option for Noah because he had a flooded world. There was no place to which he could walk.
If the flood did not happen literally, what was your opinion regarding on prophet Joseph claimed that Adam ondi Amman was the garden of eden? And it was forgotten geographically after the flood.
What? Not bringing up the Glenn Larson version? The basis for Battlestar Galactica? Seriously though, some of the wordplay is fascinating. Noah spelled backwards is grace in Hebrew.
16:40. The animals in Australia don't need crazy explanations. The ice age which happened after the flood would lower sea levels. Those lowered sea levels would cause land bridges (It isn't as deep as the Marianas Trench between Australia and Asia.). That would get the animals to Australia and America. That would explain cities burried by the ocean. There is one near Japan.
Nonsense. How do you explain the relative ages of mountains? For example, why weren't the Sierra Nevadas eroded as much as the Appalachians during the Flood? Why is there no evidence of a flood in ice core series? Ice cores from Greenland have been dated back more than 40,000 years by counting annual layers, and the Vostok core goes back over 400,000 years with the same results. A worldwide flood would be expected to leave a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, a hiatus in trapped air bubbles, and probably other evidence. Why doesn't such evidence show up? How are the polar ice caps even possible? Such a mass of water as the Flood would have provided sufficient buoyancy to float the polar caps off their beds and break them up. They wouldn't regrow quickly. In fact, the Greenland ice cap would not regrow under modern (last 10,000 yrs) climatic conditions. Why did the Flood not leave traces on the sea floors? A year long flood should be recognizable in sea bottom cores by (1) an uncharacteristic amount of terrestrial detritus, (2) different grain size distributions in the sediment, (3) a shift in oxygen isotope ratios (rain has a different isotopic composition from seawater), (4) a massive extinction. Why do none of these show up? Why is there no evidence of a flood in tree ring dating? Tree ring records go back more than 12,000 years, with no evidence of a catastrophe during that time.
It is true there are poetic and other non-literal or non-narrative sections in the scriptures. There is no reason to think Genesis is that. It is written as a true story.
I can certainly answer, idk, but I know God is real, he has a body, their is a heavenly mother and father, Jesus is the Christ, and the holy ghost is a personage and a name the angels can partake in his name and act in his name and power, science explains how God does what he does, and the restored gospel of Jesus Christ that is still being restored to this day is true. I know from personal experience, I know from angels, I know from miracles, I know from promises, I know from Jesus Christ, that this Gospel is true.
Thank you for going down this line of thought. For those of us who believe in God, we hope that science explains how God does things. Unfortunately science, at least mainstream science, is based on Darwinian evolutionary concepts and excludes God from the conversation. When we understand that Darwin hated God, but was not an atheist and was trying to rewrite nature excluding the presence of God, then we more fully understand the religion of evolution and that it is trying to destroy the faith of people who do believe in God. Unfortunately they omit a massive amount of science that is too controversial for them because it specifically goes against what they believe in the way of evolution. There are a few fairly simple ways to disprove most of what science has taught, and I love science and technology, but when it has been taken over by faithless people who want to control the narrative, then how can we really come to a true understanding of how God really works. I believe that science in the past has always tried to show how God does things, but modern science does not try to do that anymore. I do believe that the most important thing is our testimony in Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father and in living prophets. Joseph Smith was a true profit and that the book of Mormon is true as well. This should be our foundational belief in our life and this should be our focus. Me personally, I am highly interested in the intellectual conversation and trying to prove things that are not provable, and the conclusion I've come to is that the world does not see things for the way they really are. There is too much control over a small amount of information and they will not allow science to contradict what it is that they believe. I want people to increase their faith in our heavenly Father and in the plan of salvation and in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I am all for asking good questions. But realize you won't have the answers from the world as clearly as you receive answers from God. 😊
I understand what you're saying, but all the cultures through the world have stories of a world-wide flood: Japan, Australia, the native cultures of Central and South America, India.
God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. It's our understanding that changes, and grows. Precept upon Precept. Something that Jesus has said that's stayed with me alot is "always question"
I would just like to point out that at 2:55 when they show an image of a flat earth it is an incorrect image of a flat earth. (What?!?) It shows water falling off of the "edge" of the earth down into empty space. An accurate depiction of the ancient concept of a flat earth would not have edges like that. The edge would be where the firmament meets the land and where the cosmic waters started. There would be no place for the water to "fall" into. Somewhat ironically the depiction of a flat earth unintentionally imposes our modern concept of the earth existing in empty space onto the ancient idea of a flat earth. Which is exactly what Ben is telling us not to do. This is (one reason) why modern flat earthers make no sense because they don't even know how to construct a flat earth cosmology correctly. It's a mishmash of modern and ancient ideas.
I enjoyed that very much, personally I've always liked the idea that the flood was regional, specifically towards the end of an ice age where the Mississippi River and others were all blocked up by an iceberg, when it burst it destroyed everything in it's path, including any evidence of humans. I would guess God had them gather the animals as they were regional and he wanted to keep them around. But that's my speculation.
This is what I like the term legend. Legends might have factual origins but have been elaborated upon for hundreds of year so that we can't be certain of the original facts.
People underestimate that such principles as “live by the sword, die by the sword” have left a mark to raise so many people out of violent traditions and reach for justice, better ethics, and diplomacy rather than revering the apex predator like Cain in Genesis.
So from Abraham who saw the heavens and the earth, and then living in Egyptians who knew Astronomy, the Israelites went from understanding a spherical earth to think that it is flat? Water covered the tops of mounts. From what I have seen of ancient writings, they show water being ejected from the tops of mountains as well, such as in the Rocky Mountains we have tons of natural springs and mountain top lakes. It is likely that water erupted from the earth as Genius states and that it rained heavily. I personally think that the face of the land can be flooded without being submerged under the depths of the deep. Everywhere I have been, I have been told has been underwater at some point, it would be difficult to find a place that has never been submerged or covered in water. I know many regions have their own flood myths. Some survived by fleeing to the mountains, some oddly enough went underground, others had boats. I wonder where Noah’s launch point was? Prophets have stated that the flood was a baptism, Christ was perfect and still was baptized. Yes much of scripture has been romanticized by us and our teachers and that is why soo many did not recognize the Savior during his mortal ministry, many will still miss His second coming. Many do not see the current signs because people have a romanticized expectation.
Interesting... If you understand geology in a more correct way, the way that science does not believe, then water coming from the earth makes a lot of sense. I believe that there is substantial evidence and that's there is no magma layer but a mass of water underneath the crust of the earth. The continents are floating on water and pushed out because of centrifugal force. I believe it's possible that a massive comet came by the Earth and slowed the rotation just enough so that the continents would sink, maybe a couple hours, but it would take a year for the earth to float back up. This would explain the massive number of post-diluvial lakes around the world. This would also explain much of the ice built up on the poles along with the ice age. There's just so much evidence out there that science does not have it correct when it comes to the geology of the earth and they will not allow that information to be broadcast because it goes specifically against their religion of evolution. I think good members of the church get caught up in the science of the world because it tends to logically explain things. Part of that logic is understanding that atheist scientists will not logically put things into scientific study if it goes against their religion of science and evolution. So how can we get a clear picture of what is true if scientists are not willing to weigh all of the evidence? Good questions, thank you for your comment
The Earth was immersed totally at one time in the epoch past long before most life existed. So if the Earth needed to happen then it happened long before there was anyone around.
A little late to the party, I really like what was talked about and shared. However, I really don't like what Ben said about there not being a literal flood because of the lack of evidence. The Book of Mormon is the exact same way with many of the things in there, but God has said that all of the Earth's truths will be revealed in time. I'm not against the idea of maybe the flood story being a bit more fictional than factual in order to teach us the things we need to know, but saying that the lack of evidence and that God would be a trickster god if He didn't give us all the scientific evidence just kinda rubs me the wrong way. Anyways, sorry for the rant! I love what you guys do! Keep up the good work!
When I first heard the idea that early scripture might not be 100% literal it kind of shook my faith a bit. Now it seems to help me understand what the actual intent of the stories was meant to be without getting hung up in the literal of it. It does draw interesting comparisons though. Consider that the more correct translation for rib would baculum (penis bone) now also consider that anthropologist suggest that pre-modern humans lost the baculum as they moved toward monogamy. Adam gave his "rib" to obtain a wife and humans lost their "rib" as they became monogamous. We know Adam was a real person but how literal his story is more ambiguous. Personally, I prefer the poetic version
11:48 If we follow this line of thinking, isn’t it more likely that Jesus’ reported resurrection was allegorical/myth and not based on an actual event?
No, not at all. Ben is talking specifically about the context of early Genesis, how the original audience understood the story od the flood. It is a matter of genre in scripture. Genesis 1 through 11 have a specific genre that doesn't match our modern "jornalistic history of documenting real facts" idea of what is history. The new testament gospels are another genre, which is much more close to documenting real facts.
I am grateful that the leaders of the Church have given us the agency and opportunity to determine for ourselves whether the Flood was global, local, or cosmological. It allows us to explore different interpretations without risking our faith or our membership.
My understanding, B4 flood, 1 continent. The Flood broke up the Continent and water came out making our current status. In or about the 2nd coming, The Continents will be restored to 1 continent.
One point that you seem to be missing is that Noah becomes a patriarchal figure similar to Adam, because he is the father of all living. The account of Genesis is also confirmed by revelation in the book of Moses, as well as nearly all ancient cultures. There is some danger in believing that scripture is only an analogy and not historically correct, as it leads one to question other miraculous and supernatural events, such as the resurrection, as a literal event. Peter uses the flood to teach about the need of baptism and coming into Christ, Noah being a symbol of Christ. See Gospel topics: Noah in the gospel library. (Peter 3:20-21)
The LDS position on creation and the flood are things that keep me from embracing the church. I've studied these things and debated evolutionists, and I have come to the conclusion the biblical accounts are literally true. In fact, it's the scientific facts that caused me to embrace the Bible and the evangelical belief system. But I continue to meet with the missionaries just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding the BOM and the LDS church.
Unfortunately it because what we are taught about science. I don't fault people for not understanding science. My personal belief is that much of what we understand about science is incorrect in some way or fashion. There is a massive amount of evidence to prove that there was a worldwide flood. We are just not taught these facts because science tends to suppress things that Don't fit there narrative. Another unfortunate thing is, I know people who have left the church specifically on this issue and it makes me sad. My only real point is that things are not as they always seem. There is a massive amount of information that is absolutely necessary to have to understand how powerful a worldwide flood existence actually is. I am all about increasing faith and knowledge in God, but at the same time it is a massive process and undertaking to learn truth. I think we have been bombarded with so much information that it makes it difficult to distinguish fact from fiction. I hope and pray that you can continue your journey in the gospel with faith and be able to learn things that will help you increase that faith in God. That is the most important thing, and as we pursue the truth, our testimony will be strengthened.
@@michaelwhipple347 There's really not a massive amount of evidence to support a worldwide, global flood, where the tops of all the mountains (even the Himalayas) were covered with water. Did Noah have access to satellite imagery to confirm that all land everywhere was covered with water? Or could there have been a more localized flood which swept Noah out to sea from where he originated (North America/Mississippi river valley perhaps) out to the ocean, where it would appear that all the land was gone for a very long time while he was at sea? I believe there was a flood, and I believe the scriptures are true, I just disagree with the particular reading of the scriptures that seems to mandate a "global flood" as the only correct possible interpretation.
Noah said, "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth ; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave." After the flood, Noah lived 350 years.
What about the flood mentioned in the book of Mormon in this understanding. Did they think the universe was crashing in on itself? Or perhaps they're were heavy rains, and looking back on the text or the way they understood it thought it was the worldly flood? Perhaps their was a bit storm that tossed the seas like the book of Mormon explains and a general rain storm around the Earth? Maybe Noah with the Animals was just understood as part of the story to explain their understanding or their mythology of the event that actually occured with Noah and the great storm and the great rain storm on the seas.
We really do not know what details they believed. They had a story concerning the flood, but it is not explained in great detail. We have a tendency to assume the Book of Mormon prophet understood the Flood the same way we do, but there isn't many details on which to build.
Ben takes a logical approach to the flood. He uses scientific information to reach his specific conclusions. My personal belief is that there is a massive amount of information that is suppressed by the scientific atheist community because it does not fit the model of evolution. If you ever want to go down that rabbit hole there are plenty of UA-cam videos that help you to understand that things are not as they seem. The most important part of the flood story is to understand that it is a true story. Whether it is exactly literal or not is not the point. The point to the flood story is that mass destruction comes when everybody is wicked. It is a matter of faith that we understand the importance of the flood story.
Your guest is very intelligent, no doubt. But that doesn't mean all his assumptions are correct. Even what he thinks about ancient culture and what the people thought at the time could be flawed. We don't know. He doesn't know 100%. What my heart believes is that Noah was a prophet and was the head of a gospel dispensation. I believe he was a real person. If you don't believe the story of Noah was real, what do you believe was real in the Bible or the Book of Mormon? Are there any true miracles from the scriptures? I know that some aspects of stories from scriptures are symbolic etc. But for me, I err on the side of the scriptures being true. For me, there was some type of flood. The Red Sea really did part for the Israelites to pass through. Christ really did heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out devils and much more. Your guest likes to rely mostly on his intelligence and research. I prefer to rely on faith knowing that there is much more to be learned and revealed. Each of us needs to study the gospel in faith, inviting the spirit to be with us.
The Flood is part of Church teachings. It is found in the Pearl of Great Price in Moses Chapter 7 God explains his reasons for causing the flood in removing its inhabitants, and its also mentioned in 1 Peter 3:20, how they wound up in the spirit world afterwards 2 Peter 2:5 and that the Earth was baptized with Water, because later on it will be baptized again with fire..........
I agree with you that this guest isn’t on any position to possibly be able to tell us what ancients would have believed unless he was alive three and a half thousand years ago, which he wasn’t. It’s always an arrogant assumption to claim to know what people that long ago understood about the world, falsely attributing a cavemen like mentality to them. Bible scholars and archaeologists for a long time said that nations of the ancient Near East didn’t use to follow a strict calendar as the bible describes Israel as following with regards to the different feasts. Only until they uncovered evidence that other nations actually did commonly use to follow similar organised calendars with their own festivals. So called scholars and academics don’t have enough information to claim to know how ancients saw the world. Even in the bible we get an acknowledgement that the earth is a circle. Isaiah 40:22 “It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in”
Ben also believes that Noah was a real prophet and the head of dispensation. He didn't claim that the story of the Flood was not based on real events. His claim that the message taught in Genesis is not dependent on it possessing the same level of historical and scientific accuracy we expect from modern journalism. It is the moral that matters, after all Moses is recording a story that may have been passed by word of mouth for over 1000 years. It seems unlikely that Moses would have the same understanding that Noah did. We have over 2000 years of Jewish Rabbinical commentaries that give a pretty good idea how the early Israelites would have understood it, very different from most modern interpretations. Sometimes we trap ourselves into insisting the story is making claims that the text does not support. The moral of a new creation, of God giving his people a chance to start over, that is what is preserved. How can we apply those lessons in our lives today matters so much more.
@@brettmajeske3525 When it come to the scripture because I believe the prophets recorded certain things happening in the timelines of the past, present and future. Like with the consumption we have on the earth now....I don't think its a book of just only a collection of moral stories but contain prophecies of things happening in different time periods.
@@germanslice I agree with that as does Ben if his blog is to be believed. The concern is correctly identifying which is which. Some is parables, and some of those parables use the names of actual prophets. We do not have the record of Noah, or that of any of his fathers. Joseph did claim the record of Enoch was contained in the sealed portion of the Golden Plates, but we do not have that either. It is like debating whether or not Washington actually cut down the cherry tree or not. We can't prove that he did, but one way or the other it doesn't not change the moral lesson. If it turns out that it was an apple tree instead of cherry, would that mean that honesty doesn't matter?
My question is, Adam and Eve were in what is now the state of Missouri. Noah built the ark in the Western Hemisphere, yet ended up in the Middle East, having sailed across what is now the Pacific Ocean. Also, the flood legend is had by many other cultures on both hemispheres. I realize the legends probably traveled from the Old World to the New, but how does Ben explain it? Geology doesn't put contenental drift back to only Noah's time, but much further. The Earth was “baptized” by water, so it will be cleansed by fire, then experience a resurrection to a glorious sea of glass and become like the sun. So how did Noah travel around the world, so to speak? Relegating it to parable doesn't explain that.
One more question for Ben. The amount of evidence for the Book of Mormon being literal is about the same as the evidence for a literal global flood. In fact, both the Jaredites and Nephites are described as having Noah-like support from God to build boats. Do you give the BoM a similar assessment as Genesis for historicity?
I think the distinction to be made, in orthodox circles, is that Joseph Smith claimed to have seen the gold plates; he claimed to have seen the (resurrected form of the) guy who wrote them; and the BoM record itself presents itself as history with none of the grammatical or hyperbolic or humorous “tells” you might see in some OT books that suggest they may may not have been intended as history. It’s really, really hard to disclaim Book of Mormon historicity without also concluding that Joseph Smith didn’t see or hear the things he said he saw and heard; which inevitably calls his honesty into question. I think (as a believing Mormon) that a “faithful” perspective of Joseph Smith practically demands accepting the historicity of the BoM; any other paradigm is doomed to unravel eventually.
@@mgy401 I'm always reluctant to challenge honesty, because there's many ways for one to be mistaken. Many people claim many things. The question is how can we test which claims are true?
@@joshuaworkman1 who said it was millions of years ago? Oh yeah that would be the people who believe in Darwinian evolution. The people who don't believe in God. The people who don't believe the Bible is true. The people who hide a massive amounts of relevant scientific information so that they can continue their worship in science and evolution. Whether things happened millions of years ago or not are inconsequential to me though. What matters is my understanding that the scriptures are true and that prophets exist and that we can know for ourselves what truth really is. I personally think evolution is a fallacy but people are entitled to their beliefs. I think the real truth is something so incomprehensible that we would never believe it if we were told all the truth right now. That is why we have to go down the path that we do in life as we learn line up on line and precept upon precept. I do not follow people for believing the earth is millions of years old, but this is a whole other topic of conversation. I do believe that the theory of evolution has helped people to discontinue their faith in the Bible and in the flood story. I find that unfortunate. I am okay with Ben sharing his personal views because I'm sure it helps strengthen people's testimonies, even though I can disagree on some of his points. I personally do believe in the flood story and that it actually happened. There would just be a lot of new science that you would personally have to believe in and discontinue your belief in some of the old science to understand more of where I'm coming from. I diverged a long time ago from the regular scientific thoughts... I personally love science and technology and I think they're is a great deal for us to learn and we will continue to learn science and technology well after this life, and into the celestial kingdom, so I think science is very very relevant. I just choose to learn about science as a whole rather than picking out the parts that the darwinists and evolutionists and atheists tell me that I need to believe in... It's a journey. I mean no disrespect, I just like to help people look at a bigger picture. I'm not saying I'm right in on my beliefs, I'm just saying that not everybody else is right in there is either. We need to come to a testimony for ourselves, and that is what the most important thing is... Thanks for your comment. 😊
Pangea was probably the form of the continents before the flood. My personal thought is that pangea was no longer in existence after the flood and everything shifted around during that year or two or three after the initial start of the flood. It would actually make a massive amount of sense when you look at the geology and the different layers that are throughout the Earth, the things that evolution tries to explain. I think the gospel of Jesus Christ is absolutely fantastic and as I learn more about science, there are many many more answers out there than we could ever imagine. I personally think that we have to change the way we look at science because science is controlled by people who do not believe in God and will dismiss any science that goes against their religion of evolution.
Their way of understanding the event. Mythology of the fact, even if Noah and a boat or people crossed to the Americas, the mythology or how people could be interpreting or understanding this event could could be different, (like the every single animal) part.
It is important to remember that Ben's use of the word mythology does not imply falsehood, more a focus on the lesson taught than the details used to teach it.
One thing I don't like about Spackman's way of speaking is that he's constantly equivocating who's ultimately responsible for a lot of different ideas. For instance, if Genesis was actually revealed to Moses by god, then it doesn't matter what ancient Israelites thought of the text. If the genre of writing is misunderstood by mankind, that is god's problem. Also, the baptism of the Earth was not an idea that "we" ran heavily with, it was god's idea in the Book of Moses, to substantiate that notion. If it wasn't god, it was Joseph Smith, not "we".
I agree that we need to take biblical interpretation more seriously but I think historical events are cleverly veiled intentionally. So you can’t be too dismissive on the reality of the flood. First looking at all the text we have this was far from an extended rain. It was the end of the world, a global cataclysm beyond anything since the Younger Dryas. More people need to know about the Burckle Crater impact event. It is estimated to be around 5000 years ago. According to a research paper out of Columbia University and work done by Bruce Masse, the energy generated from this impact was 200,000-300,000 times that of the Krakatoa eruption. Taking in all of the data, this comet was fragmented with 2 additional impact sites in the NW Pacific and Equatorial Pacific. I would suggest that there were many smaller impact sites on land and ocean that would be hard to attribute to this event but you could only assume exist. What we know about the crater is that its size is 18 miles in diameter. What’s more impressive is it is beneath 16,000 feet of ocean. As you know, 100’s of cultures around the world have information that biblical scholars do not favor and archeologists or historians don’t have the full picture due to the relatively new findings from the researchers. You can also assume that the scientific community is also not very keen on supporting the validity of a biblical story as this fits in nicely with the chronology of Noah. The thermal effects of the fireball within a 600 mile radius would be extreme. The air pressure blast wave would have toppled trees and stripped them of leaves and branches as far as 1,200 miles. That would be all of Madagascar and everything south of DRC “The Congo” or Tanzania. Falling Ejecta would have covered much of Africa, the Arabian Peninsula, India, South East/Mainland Asia and Australia. I would imagine major earthquakes would have been felt around the world. Everywhere would have experienced the fallout of condensed vapor. People would have seen the sky completely filled with doomsday clouds with intense lighting and hurricane force winds. Super heated ejecta would be re-entering the atmosphere in many places and would have looked like fire raining from the sky. Some locations would experience super heated resinous rain. The Tsunami would have had varied effects but Madagascar and Australia would have seen 700+ ft waves. All of this would have occurred before a continuous rain out that is hard to determine due to multiple ocean impact sites. You could estimate that the Red Sea would have seen ocean waves 400-600ft high and completely submerging low lying areas of the Middle East. In most coastal areas surrounding the Indian Ocean, a general elevation of 1000 feet above sea level could be survivable. The myths involving “flood storms” are compelling in that they are worldwide suggesting proof of multiple impacts. We see stories of rain and wind going continuously for weeks. Even in the Americas we see myths describing celestial events, mega tsunamis and heated re-entry ejecta. The environmental processes in the aftermath would have been far more devastating due to continued earth quakes, volcanic activity, flash flooding, starvation and in general extreme weather events lasting for some time. I believe a great majority of these myths and scripture encode information about this type of celestial destruction. Because of the combination of astronomical, archaeological and seasonal information in these myths you can make an educated guess of a specific date of around May 10, 2807 BC. All of the evidence is consistent with this time period. Based on the descriptions of giant, elongated fiery supernatural beings prior to or at the beginning of the flood storm, it is clear that it supports a comet that was visible for several days by most cultures. Astronomy software allows you to look back at several phenomena such as planetary conjunctions and a solar eclipse at around the same time. So there you go. By the way the eclipse happened right between the horns of Taurus and everything points to the Taurid meteor stream as the source. This is why the Bronze Age is obsessed with the solar disk between the horns on everything. Both sides can dumb it down.
Why must we believe in miraculous things that require a suspension of disbelief to give meaning to Life? Why is the extraordinary nature of everything we see before us in the universe not enough that we need to turn to fairytales and myths?
I have a random question that I am going to throw out to anyone who would like to answer. Is the LDS religion the only religion out there that encourages people to pray to know truth, to question (not doubt but question) beliefs and to ask God to know if something is true.
Well I’m a Jehovah’s Witness and we don’t really do that. We might pray for God to help give us more faith but we don’t really pray to receive a sign that it’s true since, asking for a sign could be thought of as a lack of faith to begin with. So I haven’t heard of other religions doing this, although Pentecostal type religions also look for signs such as speaking in tongues and supposed healing and things. Again it’s a type of looking for external confirmation outside the pages of the bible.
@@cultfiction3865 ok. So why do so many consider the Bible the ultimate authority? Why not consider asking God the ultimate authority. That may seem like a silly question and you may just answer that the Bible is Gods word but I am trying to dig a little deeper here.
@@Imtryingtobelikejesus-m1m I think there is a deep-seeded belief in the bible as the ultimate word of God. I mean, consider that many faiths believe that God gave us the bible, that He used to have prophets on the earth but He no longer does; so I think they would believe that the Bible must have all the information and all the answer anyone will ever need. After all, if God is never going to speak to us again, shouldn't He give us all the answers in the book? On the other hand, anyone who has the Bible, considers it the word of God, and leaves in James 1:5 is, by default, encouraging people to pray for truth. The problem, I would think, is that many faiths simply skip over that verse, or they just encourage their followers to pray based on their narratives instead of objective truth. Personally, I could never believe in a religion that said, "we are the truth, we have all the truth, and not even God could give you - directly - a better truth than we have." I NEED the ability to question information and ask God for myself.
@@DannyAGray I agree. I am not scared to question (not doubt but question) my beliefs because I just want to know the truth, wherever it may be. I think it is great that the LDS religion encourages people to ask God for answers as he knows all things. Ya, it can be risky as we will not always get it right, but I know the Spirit does testify of truth and righteous truth will lead you to follow the Saviors example. I am excited to continue to learn and grow in truth and I do NOT believe the Bible is the only truth we will learn throughout eternity (that would be pretty boring). I will continue to be an open minded seeker of truth and I will live my life seeking for the Spirit to testify of truth!
@@DannyAGray but in that claim, we never claim that others don't have truth. I actually learn more about my faith when I talk to people not within my church. My testimony in God is greater because I am able to find truth outside my personal belief. We simply believe that all truth belongs in the LDS church, not that we have it all. We have had more enlightenment available to us and we share that with the world because we love all people. We want others to come to the same conclusion we have and find more peace and joy, not to be limited to what man has to tell us what to believe. Thank you for your comment 😊
I have been quiet for while but I must speak today. First of all if the bible was not historical it would not have genealogy. Genealogy is the history of a family tree. Jesus genealogy through Mary and even his step father Joseph can be traced back to Adam in the New Testament. All human beings today come from Noah anf his three sons and wives. God promised mankind that he would not flood the entire earth again and gave us the rainbow as a symbol of his promise. I don't have a promise with science or archeology because many times it proves the bible and explains how God did what He did. If the bible says the earth was covered, the earth was covered.
David didn't say there was no history, but that like the current Come Follow Me manual says, there are multiple genres within the Old Testament. Some are history, some are parable, some are poetry, some are a blend of all three. The idea of the Flood being global comes from the English translation, not the original Hebrew.
@@brettmajeske3525 I appreciate your response. I've studied only a little about Hebrew, Arabic, and Greek translations to English for the sake of the bible. I don't have a problem researching new information and discoveries. Nevertheless, I still believe the flood was global. I do agree that there are at least three elements of history, parable, and poetry in the bible but the parables and poetry put together would probably be less than 15 percnt of the bible. You can tell the parables because actual names are not used. (They will say a man , a woman, maidens, or so forth) You can find the poetry and songs in Psalms, Proverbs, and the Song of Solomon. 80 plus percent of the bible are referring to events that line up with events in world history and many have archeological support. The Book of Mormon begins with a family escaping the Babylonian Conquest of King Nebuchadnezzar over the King of Judah Zedekiah. Events can be found in the Book of Isaiah and Daniel. The Apochra Books such as Jasher, Jubilees, and Enoch share iadditional information about events in the Books of Genesis and other OT stories. Again thanks for your response.
@@theministerartist9249 I am not trying to convince to believe or not believe in a global flood, just so that people understand that the Bible itself never makes the claim of a global flood in the original text. And there are many examples of parables that use names, often symbolic names that have related meanings in the original Hebrew. Jonah is very obviously a parable, it even has the Hebrew equivalent of "Once upon a time..."
The interesting thing with all of this is who said that geography is exactly the same as it was before the flood.. many changes I think were made on Earth and would be completely unrecognizable. I think it tends to be a moot point trying to place anything anywhere previous to the flood. So if you were in a valley or high on a mountain, it would probably be destroyed or moved during the flood. It will be interesting to learn what really happened during the flood. I'm looking forward to that class after this life...😊
The only controversial aspect of the story is what this says about the Old Testament writers' concept of their god. This story reinforces the idea that Yahweh is not a good or kind god, but a vengeful, cruel god that rewards obedience above rightousness. In other places Yahweh is described as being absolutely good, so it is a subject worthy of discussion. But in the 2020s to still be talking about it as if it was a literal account is absurd.
Geologists have proven that at the end of the last ice age, the dams burst and caused a big flood, sweeping away everything in its path. For example, there was once a giant glacier lake in Montana. It is also believed that a dam burst out into the Arctic. This may have caused a tsunami to land in Europe, and spread across the Mediterranean. Also, the sudden exportation of freshwater into the Atlantic would have slowed down the Atlantic circulation and would then have caused the cooling in the weather observed in Europe. A tsunami and sudden cold weather, killing the plants and therefore the animals? Disasters have repeatedly had a big effect on the population through time. This must have been particularly terrible for the legend to remain until this day. I think what people will have a real problem with is my timing. Ice age? No way.
It is interesting that you use this specific example. I use the example of the post deluvial lakes as exact proof that the worldwide flood absolutely existed. How do you get that massive amount of water in lakes all around the world without having a worldwide flood. Otherwise the world would have been much less inhabitable. I wish I could share with you all the science that I know that absolutely proves the worldwide flood happens and that we have a massive amount of geological proof of it. In fact regular science cannot prove it because science discards information that goes specifically against their evolutionary format. The scientific community believes that if you do not believe in evolution then your science is not real. The problem with the science that I personally believe in is that most people would have to completely rewrite the way they understand the earth. People are not willing to make those changes, so it does not do any good to bring them up here. But I guarantee you there's plenty of evidence that absolutely proves that the flood absolutely happened, but that it was a worldwide event. Thank you for your comment😊
If this was not a historical telling, and not a parable, What is it? I re-read Genesis 6-9 after watching this and no, I do not read Hebrew, I read English. It really reads like a history, not a fable or myth to teach a lesson. I would like to hear more from Ben with a critical examination of the fundamentalist, young earth view on this.
Just because you don't understand how the flood could have been a world wide event, doesn't mean it didn't happen. God is GOD. I would recommend putting aside all the doctrine & just read the bible alone..
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson gives a beautiful lecture on Noah’s Ark as seen threats psychological perspective. He has 13 lectures, each on a specific biblical story. The lectures are 4 years old and greatly reviered.
God is real everyone. Stop worrying about all this. “And now, my son, I desire that ye should let these things trouble you no more, and only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance.” Alma 42:29
Here is my question: Why would God choose to drown babies as opposed to poofing them out of existence or turning them into salt like Lot's wife? Something painless and instant as opposed to filling a baby's lungs with water until they die. It seems like god wanted to watch babies suffer a terrible death.
That's not an easy question to answer. I will try to share my belief and how I see it. Personally, I have seven children. I hate seeing them suffer, I don't like it when they have difficult times and they are in pain. I cannot imagine the suffering of any person in the act of drowning. That just seems horrible. There are, however, consequences to our actions. The people were warned that there would be a flood and they had every ability to repent and to come unto God and be saved on the ark. Noah preached for over 100 years before the doors were sealed up on the ark. The idea that God wants people to die an ignominious death is absurd, but you are entitled to your belief. This goes back to me being a father and doing what I can to make sure my children are not in pain. I believe God loves us as his children much much more than I could ever love my own children, and that is a lot. The consequence of babies drowning is on the heads of their parents because they knew what was coming and God cannot go against his word. The world suffered the consequences for sin. I am sure this is not going to be a good enough explanation for you, but I think this is more closely related to the truth then what you have stated and how God wants babies to suffer a terrible death... I do appreciate the question. I do hope that I have at least given you a different way to look at it. My hope is not to convince people of what I believe, but to at least look at it from a different angle. I hope this helps. 😊
@@michaelwhipple347 the point still stands. God prefers people and even babies to suffer a painful death when he could’ve given them a painless one. Doesn’t that disturb you? God looks down at babies and toddlers and prefers to drown them when he could’ve instantly vaporized them. Isn’t dying punishment enough? Why does it need to be painful?
@@dukeofsahib4967 I'm trying to find where it says that God likes seeing people suffer. Or that he wants pain and suffering. Or that God is heartless. Or that he wants babies and toddlers to suffer... I personally don't hold those beliefs so I can't sufficiently answer your question. So please share why you think someone like me would hold that belief? Thanks 😊
@@michaelwhipple347 God had the choice between a painful method of execution and a painless method of execution. He chose the painful method. Therefore he prefers that children and infants suffer a painful death when he could’ve given them a painless one. That’s truly sick
@@dukeofsahib4967 I'm just going to disagree with you. I don't agree with your premise. I don't agree that God like to see people in pain. Don't tell me that you know how God feels or thinks when it seems that you disregard all the great and wonderful things that God does. For me, natural consequences happen all the time. Do you blame God for those things too? Do you blame God when all the bad things happen to people? Just curious, trying to figure out what your goal is in asking your original question... Did you want an answer? Or just argue? I assumed you asked a legit question you wanted an answer to...
Even if you believe the story of Noah's Flood is allegorical, that doesn't mean Noah himself wasn't a real person. Similarly, even though Abraham Lincoln vampire slayer is fiction, that doesn't mean Abraham Lincoln is not a real person.
Why would that matter? You seem to think that Ben doesn't believe that Noah was a real prophet. You are mistaken, his blog is very explicit that he does. He just thinks as a whole we are focused on the wrong details.
3:00. LIES. Moses who wrote Genesis was shown all thing by God. God showed him all this earth. The wording could be used to describe the round earth we have. If you have a point, then atheism is true and need to quit the church.
But the Bible never claims either of those things, nor does over 2000 years of Jewish traditions, the language and culture in which it was first written.
@@brettmajeske3525 So you are saying the King James translators or those between them and Moses shouldn't have transmitted, "ball the high hills," and "the whole heaven," and "And all flesh died" and "to destroy all flesh," and "every thing that is in the earth shall"? The Joseph Smith Translation doesn't correct that language. I say that all emcompassing language isn't wrong. The Pearl of Great Price uses similar all encompassing language. I didn't only write about the scriptures in my original comment. Science tells us there was a world wide flood. There are huge common rock layers on multiple continents. The many fossils are best explained by the worldwide flood described in The Bible.
@@Hamann9631 Again, I am not disputing your, or anyone elses belief, I am just noting that in the original Hebrew Genesis is clearly talking about a limited landmass in the middle east. The use of the word "all" only explicitly refers to that land mass. The word translated as "in the earth", does not mean the planet earth, but 'dirt'. Contextually it is used to mean just the middle east, with Africa, Asia, and Europe being known as the "isles of the sea". If you want to believe in a global flood, that is your choice. 2000 years of Rabbinical commentaries informs us that is not how Jewish scholars understood the text in their native language. If I were to talk about my home being flooded, all the land being covered with water and all flesh destroyed, most people would understand I was talking about Washtenaw county, or maybe the state of Michigan. In English such language is understood to mean the local area of which I have knowledge. The only claim Genesis makes is that all the land that Noah is aware of is covered. Perhaps land he wasn't aware of was also covered, but the Hebrew text does not actually make that claim.
@@brettmajeske3525 You are disputing my beliefs and THE CLEAR WORDING IN THE TEXT. Your comment was shocking to me because usually you are right. Usuaully you are defending the truth. You and Ben are telling people God is a liar. You are telling us to not believe the scriptures. You didn't show how the original text clearly showed it to be only a local flood. I don't put much trust in rabbinical commentaries, if they are doing mental gymnastics to avoid saying the truth. So according to you "all" and "whole" are there. Earth meaning the dirt on which we walk instead of the globe doesn't undo the world wideness of the flood. There is dirt on every continent. Genesis is a revelation from God who knows the whole planet to His prophet Moses. It isn't Noah's perception.
@@Hamann9631 I don't mean to offend you, as I said before, there is room for multiple interpretations. Many modern Apostles have taught that the flood was worldwide, but some like Widtsoe, Brown, and Eyring believed it was only local. The Church doesn't have an official opinion either way. Perhaps it is best to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
The Ark of Noah represents Jesus our Savior, according to the scriptures, Jesus is in us and we are in Jesus, we are in Christ. The Ark represents protection, shelter, Noah and his family are safe in the Ark, the Ark is perfect, like Jesus. When Noahs family entered into the Ark he has the protection of Jesus our Lord. They had the salvation of our Savior when they entered the Ark, (Jesus). Then they entered a new place a new life when the Ark made it to land, and we also have a new life through our savior Jesus Christ. Noah passed through to a new world, and left the old world behind, he entered the kingdom of God and was able to dwell with the Lord. John 14:20 At that day, you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
I believe in the God of miracles too. I am married to him. He is one of the same as the most high Father his name is Yahweh. Father Yahweh Sr. is the Father of little Yahweh who when born again through Mother Mary on earth came to get the sin out. Both Yahweh Sr and Yahweh Jr are both the same as the most high Father above them. Father Yahweh Srs body is the universe. Yahweh Jr is the first born son of Yahweh Sr. Little Yahweh known as Jesus came to get the sin out.
12 min. in and im not liking this episode! For a guy that is getting over his faith crisis with the LDS church, this guy is upsetting to hear. Basically saying.... "ahhh... whatever the bible says, may not be exactly truth... But its the lessons u get out of these STORIES is what counts!" If thats the case hes making, then that makes the bible a story book. I gotta think about continuing to watch this channel. This makes me very angry! This guy sounds like those athiests "...God wouldnt hide the proof of the flood.. We dnt see proof of the flood" Theres alot of thing God has not revealed yet, concerning proof of the Bible/BOM for reasons only He knows. But isnt that what faith is about.? I cant pick up what this guy is putting down! I dislike this episode so much! Wheres Kwaku when u need him!?
Hey my friend, remember that it’s ok to not fully understand some things. The story of the flood is not crucial to your testimony of the Savior and His deep love for you. Hold on to what you do know, the personal experiences you’ve had with the Devine and shelve the things you don’t fully comprehend for now. Understanding will come line upon line if and when you need it. Hang in there and just keep moving forward.
"It is of little significance as to whether Jonah was a real individual or one chosen by the writer of the book to write what is set forth therein. It is held by the Church that Job was a real character. It is barely possible that the book was one of the kind prevailing in olden times, setting forth certain principles in the form of a parable, as it was with the parables of Jesus Christ when in the flesh. **That is not of very great importance so long as the doctrines contained in the work are correct.** " Literally the First Presidency in 1921.
"whatever the bible says, may not be exactly truth" Whatever *you may interpret* the Bible to say may not be exactly truth. That's why we want to be so careful to interpret and understand the way the Israelites might have.
Hey! Thanks for your feedback. I’m so sorry you didn’t like this episode but we’re glad you’re expressing your concerns. The purpose of this episode wasn’t to discredit the Bible nor to persuade anyone to believe one way or the other. We just wanted to offer an interesting perspective that has been well-researched and is still faith promoting. We love the Bible so much and love the teachings found therein! Thanks again for your concern, we’re glad you’re here:)
I think you are misinterpreting what Ben Spackman is saying. He believes in the Bible. But he is saying that our interpretation of it is often simplistic and based merely on what we assume it says. To understand the Bible you need to know its background.
I always take the Scriptures literally unless the text tells me that it is a parable, allegory, or a strange image is presented, or has literally been explained as a symbolic representation by a Latter-Day Authority such as the Prophets, Apostles, Seventies etc. Modern academia has been at work trying to discard miracles and the supernatural with its Athiestic views. We had problems with that at BYU Provo periodically with the professors trying to destroy people's faith by asserting that most of the Scripture stories are just symbolic but could not happen because of these modern views. This guy, Ben is basically doing the same thing. Trying to peddle his sweet little abstract spirituality while asserting that this event didn't actually happen and that there's small stakes. He even hinted that he didn't know much about whether or not the Isrealites really knew what he was talking about. Beware of such. Even if there is Hebrew writing styles and symbolic gestures in the text, that doesn't mean that these things didn't actually happen.They were given the story according to their understanding. All we really know is that Noah was a Prophet who does speak in the POGP btw. Enoch saw the flood in vision of world events and was promised that his seed would continue in all the earth. The people were so wicked and violent and so God gathered the animals to a vessel which had been prepared, and swept all land dwelling creatures off the face of the earth, and Noah and his family continued the human race.
I agree with you that this guy shouldn’t be arguing with bible text. If the flood was a parable the bible would have made that clear to the reader. It was a literal historical event. It’s silly for academics to make claim to how ancients understood the world when they weren’t alive 3 and a half thousand years ago. I read books on bible archaeology and time after time are long standing beliefs bible scholars and archaeologists have held about ancient people only until discovering new evidence that demonstrates that they were wrong in their previous assumptions. And it proves nothing for someone like this guy to come on here and make claim to how ancients saw the world. Even his arguments are straw man arguments. He asks “what about the people in China or Australia?” There is no evidence that either of those countries were inhabited back then. The earths population hadn’t probably grown enough at that point.
You are just too attached to your old dark lamp and is not recognizing Ben's much brighter lamp. His blog is awesome when you recognize that you can still learn a lot about scriptures.
You are aware of what Bringham Young, John Taylor, BH Roberts, James Talmage, John Witdsoe, LeGrand Richards, and Hugh B Brown have said about the story of the Flood? There is a long history within the Church of asserting that Noah was a Prophet (which Ben does as well) and that we do not fully understand the details. The point of its inclusion is to teach moral and spiritual truth. Ben is asserting that to understand the story literally requires seeking how it was understood to the original audience.
@@brettmajeske3525 And that is why I’d never become a Latter Day Saint. Because you don’t believe the bible is inspired of God deep down. If you believe the bible is inspired of God then why do you take the view that the things the bible writers recorded are all open to mans error? Something inspired of God transcends mans errors. Even Jesus himself confirmed his belief in the biblical flood of Noah’s day Luke 17:26-27 “Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the Flood came and destroyed them all.” Honestly the stuff that you Latter Day Saints say shocks me.
@@cultfiction3865 And your claim sounds like a lack of faith to me. Faith means accepting God's will, not what I want it to be, but how it actually is. Ben never said it wasn't based on actual events, just that the message it teaches is more important than determining how accurate the details may or may not be.
If you don't believe in Noah and the flood then you pretty much ignore scripture as a whole. 1) Comparing it to flat earth theory is absurd. 2) basic research into the earth layers shows it was global. 3) the earth was 1/4 the size it is now. All land was connected. Also minimizing Noah as a righteous man totally misses the point. Noah is used with Job and Daniel in EZE 14. So much stuff in this it is almost pointless to even go further. Smart???? Uh...
This is the problem I’m seeing from Saints unscripted. The Mormons will undermine the bible by trying to change the meaning of what it says. The argument that we do t understand the world as the Israelites did is utter garbage, because God inspired the bible for all humans of all generations to understand. He didn’t inspire it for only the Israelites to understand from three and a half thousand years ago. This guy is showing us that he questions Gods authorship of the bible, and implies that the bible is a book that only reflects men’s understanding. Let me remind of of the scripture at 2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,” ALL scripture is given by Gods inspiration not mans, which excludes the possibility that we are only getting an ancient worldview that was primitive. Even the allegation that the Israelites believed the world was a flat disk with a dome over it is a biased reading of the creation account. Job 26:7 “He stretches out the northern sky* over empty space,* Suspending the earth upon nothing;” Ancient people did have scientific understanding. This guy is just another guy that has displaced all logic with academic idle chatter. There is plenty of physical evidence that there was a worldwide flood
From the Come, Follow Me manual: Don’t expect the Old Testament to present a thorough and precise history of humankind. That’s not what the original authors and compilers were trying to create. Their larger concern was to teach something about God-about His plan for His children, about what it means to be His covenant people, and about how to find redemption when we don’t live up to our covenants. Sometimes they did it by relating historical events as they understood them-including stories from the lives of great prophets. Genesis is an example of this, as are books like Joshua, Judges, and 1 and 2 Kings. But other Old Testament writers did not aim to be historical at all. Instead, they taught through works of art like poetry and literature. The Psalms and the Proverbs fit in this category. And then there are the precious words of prophets, from Isaiah to Malachi, who spoke the word of God to ancient Israel-and, through the miracle of the Bible, still speak to us today. Did all of these prophets, poets, and compilers know that their words would be read by people all over the world thousands of years later? We don’t know. But we marvel that this is exactly what has happened. Nations rose and fell, cities were conquered, kings lived and died; but the Old Testament outlasted them all, from generation to generation, from scribe to scribe, from translation to translation. Of course some things were lost or modified, and yet somehow so much was miraculously preserved. These are just a few things to keep in mind as you read the Old Testament this year. Maybe God preserved these ancient writings because He knows you and what you are going through. Maybe He has prepared a spiritual message for you in these words, something that will draw you closer to Him and build your faith in His plan and His Beloved Son. Perhaps He will lead you to a passage or an insight that will bless someone you know-a message you can share with a friend, a family member, or a fellow Saint. There are so many possibilities. Isn’t that exciting to think about? Books in the Old Testament In most Christian versions of the Old Testament, the books are organized differently from how they were arranged when they were first compiled into one collection. So while the Hebrew Bible groups the books into three categories-the law, prophets, and writings-most Christian Bibles arrange the books into four categories: law (Genesis-Deuteronomy), history (Joshua-Esther), poetic books (Job-Song of Solomon), and prophets (Isaiah-Malachi). Why are these categories important? Because knowing what kind of book you are studying can help you understand how to study it. Here’s something to keep in mind as you begin reading “the law,” or the first five books of the Old Testament. These books, which are attributed to Moses, probably passed through the hands of numerous scribes and compilers over time. Still, the books of Moses are the inspired word of God, even though they are-like any work of God transmitted through mortals-subject to human imperfections (see Moses 1:41; Articles of Faith 1:8).
@@EstevanLPLeal So based on that above article, are you saying that Mormons don’t accept the bible? I’ve spoken to Mormons in the past and one thing I find a bit deceptive is that to start with they claim that they believe the bible is Gods word and that the Book of Mormon supports or supplements it. Then as time goes on I feel as though they start slowly promoting the Mormon literature higher while relegating the bible itself. It’s subtle and gradual, but feels deceptive. Teaching people that it’s ok to doubt certain things in the bible as long as you have full faith in the Book of Mormon, Pearl of great price, Doctrine and covenants and the Mormon prophets. At this point it stops resembling Christianity altogether.
@@cultfiction3865 No, if anything we are saying the opposite. Who do you think has a better understanding, the person who wrote a text or a person reading a copy of a copy and a translation of a translation living in a different culture more than 2000 years later? Seeking to understand context is not rejecting the Bible, it is embracing it.
@@brettmajeske3525 You are implying that God is not capable of preserving his word. If God can part the Red Sea, can defeat armies of hundreds of thousands of people and raise the dead and strike down thousands of people at once, and rain fire and sulfur from heaven, how isn’t he capable of preserving his word through his mighty power? Your assertions are clearly wrong since there are tens of thousands of bible manuscripts and they all say exactly the same things. If the bible was subject to mans folly the different manuscripts wouldn’t agree with each other
In response to what was said about the baptism of the earth: President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876-1972) wrote: "The Lord here [in Doctrine and Covenants 88] informs us that the earth on which we dwell is a living thing, and that the time must come when it will be sanctified from all unrighteousness. In the Pearl of Great Price, when Enoch is conversing with the Lord , he hears the earth crying for deliverance from the iniquity upon her face (Moses 7:48). … It is not the fault of the earth that wickedness prevails upon her face, for she has been true to the law which she received and that law is the celestial law. Therefore the Lord says that the earth shall be sanctified from all unrighteousness" (Church History and Modern Revelation [1953], 1:366-67). We know the earth itself is a living entity. Spackman's argument that the earth doesn't need to be baptized because it can't sin, or can't repent doesn't hold much water either. Christ was without sin too, but he was baptized anyway to fulfill all righteousness.
The above quote was not written while JFS ws prophet, and many of his fellow apostles disagreed with his many of his more conservative views. It is an opinion, not official Church policy.
@@brettmajeske3525 What are you arguing against here exactly? JFSs character? Disregard his words then. Read Moses 7 and D&C 88. They describe the earth as this living, sentient entity that will go through the same spiritual/physical changes we will.
@@brettmajeske3525 i dont think you're understanding me. It doesn't matter if the flood is a metaphor. Baptism is a metaphor too. It's a symbol for death and rebirth. My point is that the earth seems to be literally alive, and will die and be reborn just like we will. Some form of baptism, metaphorical or otherwise, is probably required. And I believe that's what the great flood was.
Question for Ben - what's the first event/person in the Old Testament that you think is literal history?
I’m guessing Abraham?
If you check out his blog he compares the Old Testament to stories about George Washington. Washington was a real person, of which we know many details. There are also tons of stories told about him whose historicity cannot be verified and whose importance is as moral tales, i.e. chopping down the cherry tree. The line between moral fable and history can get blurred and it has only been about 250 years.
In the same way it is not a matter of saying, "this prophet was real, but that one is not". It is more a matter, "all the stories are intended to teach moral stories, both one with accurate details and the ones with inaccurate ones".
@@brettmajeske3525 I understand that. I'm just curious which is the earliest OT story that he thinks falls into the "accurate" category.
In a FAIR address Q&A, he entertained the idea that there was an actual Adam and Eve who were the first covenant couple.
@@kenhilker2507 I doubt any of them would be considered "accurate" by today's standards, which didn't exist until less than 300 years ago. The closer one gets to the present the more accurate. Anything before King David has no outside historical verification. That leaves a lot of room for ambiguity.
Again, thanks for hosting Ben!
I loved the ending, "This is a brighter lamp."
Thanks for these videos by Ben Spackman. He has helped me in recent years to deal with my questions as I tried to follow the LDS teaching to keep learning. Once you dig deeper into the Bible, many thorny questions arise. Ben is there to help me through it.
It's also interesting to note the comment made by Moroni in Ether 1:3-- where he skips the early history period from Adam to the Tower (including Noah's flood) -- because he says that the Jews already have this. Moroni is looking at a record *independent* of the 5 books of Moses, from a people who broke away even before Abraham. So the narrative Moroni is saying is already had among the Jews is a narrative that existed before the Israelites existed, before Moses existed, before Abraham existed... it's interesting to point that out. This isn't just an Israelite thing.
From the Come, Follow Me manual:
Don’t expect the Old Testament to present a thorough and precise history of humankind. That’s not what the original authors and compilers were trying to create. Their larger concern was to teach something about God-about His plan for His children, about what it means to be His covenant people, and about how to find redemption when we don’t live up to our covenants. Sometimes they did it by relating historical events as they understood them-including stories from the lives of great prophets. Genesis is an example of this, as are books like Joshua, Judges, and 1 and 2 Kings. But other Old Testament writers did not aim to be historical at all. Instead, they taught through works of art like poetry and literature. The Psalms and the Proverbs fit in this category. And then there are the precious words of prophets, from Isaiah to Malachi, who spoke the word of God to ancient Israel-and, through the miracle of the Bible, still speak to us today.
Did all of these prophets, poets, and compilers know that their words would be read by people all over the world thousands of years later? We don’t know. But we marvel that this is exactly what has happened. Nations rose and fell, cities were conquered, kings lived and died; but the Old Testament outlasted them all, from generation to generation, from scribe to scribe, from translation to translation. Of course some things were lost or modified, and yet somehow so much was miraculously preserved.
These are just a few things to keep in mind as you read the Old Testament this year. Maybe God preserved these ancient writings because He knows you and what you are going through. Maybe He has prepared a spiritual message for you in these words, something that will draw you closer to Him and build your faith in His plan and His Beloved Son. Perhaps He will lead you to a passage or an insight that will bless someone you know-a message you can share with a friend, a family member, or a fellow Saint. There are so many possibilities. Isn’t that exciting to think about?
(...)
n most Christian versions of the Old Testament, the books are organized differently from how they were arranged when they were first compiled into one collection. So while the Hebrew Bible groups the books into three categories-the law, prophets, and writings-most Christian Bibles arrange the books into four categories: law (Genesis-Deuteronomy), history (Joshua-Esther), poetic books (Job-Song of Solomon), and prophets (Isaiah-Malachi).
Why are these categories important? Because knowing what kind of book you are studying can help you understand how to study it.
Yes, the new CFM manual is very subtly steering us away from an "all-scripture-is-historical-fact" interpretive tradition. I appreciate that a lot. It's not as blunt as I'd like it to be, but baby steps. As Plato said, “Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow.”
I saw the title of the video and thought "No way, they wouldn't dare". I really liked the discussion of what the story likely would have meant to the original audience. That's very much worth considering. It highlights a loving God, in comparison to more traditional (at the time) views of gods. This is interesting, because from another perspective, the story shows a violent God mass-killing humans of all sizes. But to the original audience, the deep concern of God about human violence, and renewing things to start fresh and allowing humans a second chance to not become violent again - but instead live the way God intended. Seen that way it's inspirational. The mass-killing part is still troubling to me, but I can see better now value in this story. Thanks again!
It also helps if you don’t see death as a terrible thing… just a natural continuation of life, the next step in an eternal life.
@@loridavis7086 Hmm, I do still see mass killing as a terrible thing. That's kinda why people such as Hitler have a bad reputation. Authority and power does not excuse violence, even for God. But many people throughout history have justified extreme violence by saying their God commanded it. Very sad.
Yeah, god ending someone’s life is not the same as a human in this life doing it. It’s like if we’re all playing a basketball team God as the coach has the right to bench any of his players at any time, there is nothing wrong about that at all, but if I hit another player to where they can’t play anymore i would have broken the rules and will have to pay for it. If you believe in an afterlife that God has power over then him deciding your time is up is just part of his plan.
@@ThoseOneGuysInc I respectfully disagree that powe/authority justifies violence. Not too long ago, and in many places, human father's could beat and kill their children with the same justification. It's not moral. Not good. The world today has a higher morality almost everywhere. The root of goodness and spiritually is "Love others AS self" - not power over others. Think Jesus saying "As you have done to the least you have done to me". Jesus knew what he was talking about, but christians ironically reach past Jesus toward the God who massacres, and still demands worship.
@@ThoseOneGuysInc I don't think your explanation bodes well in the context of Nazi Germany my dude.
I would recommend to stop and consider the following: If Adam and his posterity lived in the vicinity of the heartland of the United States prior to the flood, then just how did a regional flood land Noah in the new location of Mesopotamia? And how did his Ark come to rest on the "mountains of Ararat"? Gen 8:4
EXACTLY! This is the kind of talk I have problems with, especially from members of the church!
I mean, if it was a regional, but destructive flood, imo, the water flooded out to sea. Water travels the path of least resistance. The bulk of the water from said flood could have carried the ark across the ocean thru waves. But then again, that is my own opinion. The other one I like best is the events of the “Younger Dryas cataclysm” causing the flood via tsunamis (this forgoes the idea of a regional flood).
I’m 3 min in and already have my head in my hands!
This used to be a good channel. Stop giving in to the worldly views.
@@pauldwigans4193 we don't have to agree with the worldly views. I think it's important to listen to people we don't agree with. Gives me the ability to understand the other side so I can help people better understand the gospel. Don't despair my friend. There is plenty of evidence to prove the flood was world wide.
I rely on the general authorities to explain scripture, not BYU professors. Until they say different, I'll have to stick with my original understandings.
To be honest, I don't have a problem thinking of it either way - either as a parable or as literal. I understand that there needs to be an explanation for where the water went, but I don't see it as something that needs to bother my testimony in any way.
I've always kind of dismissed the story of Noah as just weird and something that just never fit reality. So I've kind of had to push it aside in the back shelf of my mind. You've given me a new way to look at it and appreciate it. Thank you!
Unfortunately we actually believe science to be highly advanced. Look at the people who CONTROL the science narrative. They are very very very controlling. They tend to be atheists and will never substantiate anything about God or miracles. I don't have a problem with looking to understand the seemingly illogical miracles that happens in the Bible, we just cannot use incomplete science either..
There is so much science out there that absolutely proves the flood was a worldwide event. The problem is that science will never accept this science because it does not fit their narrative. They worship at the altar of evolution and Darwin. Science is simply built on a sandy foundation and will fall. We will eventually understand the truth, as I respectively disagree with Ben... And I LOVE science and technology. 😊
The matter of truth (comments at 11:20) can often be determined by purpose. Take for example a map of the MTA (NYC subway). Is it "true"? Its geography is intentionally distorted, north is not at the top, distances are inaccurate, but as a tourist, if I need to get from Queens to Uptown, it will get me there. So it's true to its purpose,. However, asking it to do something it was never designed to do is unfair and irresponsible on my part. Scripture is much the same, and when we recognize the purpose, all the other distortions and inaccuracies (often matters of 'holy tradition' anyway) are resolved. Scripture in general, and Genesis in particular is not an episode of "How it's Made", but rather, simply How to Understand Your Relationship with Deity and Mankind. All the Gordian Knots we twist ourselves into over minor details were easily resolved once I figured this out. I only wish I could have figured it out 25 years ago.
the irony being that the ancient biblical cosmology makes more sense
I really like this. I don't care if it is literal or metaphor and parable. I know God is there. I have faith He loves me. One day, when I pass over, I will probably think about it and think, "huh, that was sort of a non issue."
I feel in the Bible when it says the world, it meant the known world of God’s people at that time and the animals in that world. God guided the Ark to a region that he ordained for Noah and his family to start anew and bring forth the renewal of mankind again and God’s purpose. God has control of the elements (remember the parting of the Red Sea?).
I have struggled with this story more than anything else and this type of explanation helped me so much in the beginning it let me stay. I am now open to all to the crazy miraculous that we cannot even comprehend to the natural and logical course of what we can see that happened knowing that it is somewhere in the middle and we will know in the next life.
"The stories of the Garden of Eden and the Flood have more than any others damaged the credibility of the biblical message, being the easiest to visualize, popularize, and satirize of any Bible accounts... it requires no effort of the imagination for a six-year-old to convert concise, straightforward Sunday-school recitals into the vivid images that will stay with him for the rest of his life. These stories are discredited as nursery tales because they are nursery tales, retaining forever the forms they take in the imaginations of small children, defended by grownups who refuse to distinguish between childlike faith and thinking as a child when it is time to “put away childish things.” (1 Corinthians 13:11.) " -Hugh Nibley, "Enoch the Prophet"
Thank you Ben and Saints Unscripted for sharing this message. Put away childish things and don't build your faith on the historicity of fairy tales, it is not a strong foundation.
I love Hugh Nibley's take on this, as on so many different ideas.
Meanwhile modern maps: What's New Zealand?
This is interesting. I have no solid opinion on the literalness of the flood. I would like to hear how Latter-day Saints who dismiss the flood address scriptures in the BOM, D&C, and PoGP that also show a flood. Particularly Ether 13:2. This indicates a global flood. I have never heard anyone discuss these modern revelations when discussing the flood.
But they don't. All Ether claims is that Moroni believed that there was a Flood, no eplicitl explanations of how wide it was. None of those scriptures mention an explicit global flood in the plain English. Metaphonically they *could* be about a global flood, or a local one. None of the LDS canon is explicit.
THANK YOU for addressing this Ben, I've felt this way about the Flood story for a long time, but it's nice to hear it from someone who isn't trying to convince me that all religion is fiction. Personally, I side with the idea that Noah was a real figure, but maybe it was more of a localized flood, and he saved twos and sevens of all the animals in the area (or even of his own pastures). That doesn't make Noah any less of a prophet, or the story any less of a miracle. Heck, people bare testimonies about God helping them find their favorite shirt! Why should we hold Biblical miracles to a different standard than our own?
because a lot of people's personal testimonies are based on the pre-supposition that a God exists which can do the things described in the Bible. If more people realized that God didn't literally do many of the feats ascribed to him in the OT and NT, then they might be less likely to credit God for finding their shirt.
I've never thought of the "baptism of the earth" as literal but rather symbolic (whether a global flood actually happened or not). Because the earth will one day be made celestial, I've always seen it's symbolic baptism purely in parallel to our own need for literal baptism in order to become celestial ourselves, not because the earth had need for repentance. Christ didn't need to be baptized either except to "fulfill all righteousness"--in other words, to be obedient to the Father's commandments and the holy order of things.
Appreciate the good faith theory. That said, to me it seems perfectly sensible that the earth would be baptized by water and then by fire. Your guest counters this with, "Does the earth have a will? Has it sinned?" To which I'd say: Christ didn't sin but was nevertheless baptized to fulfill all righteousness, and there are scriptures with language about the earth longing to be cleansed of the blood and corruption, even to become sanctified. As per historical evidence for a flood, I think many people underestimate the degree to which our fairly young scientific disciplines have been manipulated (Victorian era academic invention of the "-ologies," e.g. archeology, geology, paleontology, etc.).
There is precedent in the scriptures of other peoples who survive by building a boat-- Lehi's family and the Jaredites (and the Mulekites too!) So, I don't see any problem with Noah's story having an essence of truth that involves his family escaping the destruction of the people by building a boat and traveling somewhere, and perhaps there even being a big storm that involves lots of water. And just as with the Jaredites and Lehi, they landed at a new land and started a new authoritative dispensation.
It also works great in a metaphoric setting. If a flood represents an apostasy, then the boat would represent a restoration. Noah stands at the head of his dispensation as do all other prophets who have been called to restore or sustain alive the gospel on the Earth.
The fact that Lehi, Mulek, Mohonri Moriancumr, Omer, Alma, and Mosiah fled a bad situation by walking away, should make us consider a prophet walking away more likely than boating away. Walking away wasn't an option for Noah because he had a flooded world. There was no place to which he could walk.
If the flood did not happen literally, what was your opinion regarding on prophet Joseph claimed that Adam ondi Amman was the garden of eden? And it was forgotten geographically after the flood.
What? Not bringing up the Glenn Larson version? The basis for Battlestar Galactica? Seriously though, some of the wordplay is fascinating. Noah spelled backwards is grace in Hebrew.
16:40. The animals in Australia don't need crazy explanations. The ice age which happened after the flood would lower sea levels. Those lowered sea levels would cause land bridges (It isn't as deep as the Marianas Trench between Australia and Asia.). That would get the animals to Australia and America. That would explain cities burried by the ocean. There is one near Japan.
Nonsense. How do you explain the relative ages of mountains? For example, why weren't the Sierra Nevadas eroded as much as the Appalachians during the Flood? Why is there no evidence of a flood in ice core series? Ice cores from Greenland have been dated back more than 40,000 years by counting annual layers, and the Vostok core goes back over 400,000 years with the same results. A worldwide flood would be expected to leave a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, a hiatus in trapped air bubbles, and probably other evidence. Why doesn't such evidence show up? How are the polar ice caps even possible? Such a mass of water as the Flood would have provided sufficient buoyancy to float the polar caps off their beds and break them up. They wouldn't regrow quickly. In fact, the Greenland ice cap would not regrow under modern (last 10,000 yrs) climatic conditions. Why did the Flood not leave traces on the sea floors? A year long flood should be recognizable in sea bottom cores by (1) an uncharacteristic amount of terrestrial detritus, (2) different grain size distributions in the sediment, (3) a shift in oxygen isotope ratios (rain has a different isotopic composition from seawater), (4) a massive extinction. Why do none of these show up? Why is there no evidence of a flood in tree ring dating? Tree ring records go back more than 12,000 years, with no evidence of a catastrophe during that time.
It is true there are poetic and other non-literal or non-narrative sections in the scriptures. There is no reason to think Genesis is that. It is written as a true story.
I can certainly answer, idk, but I know God is real, he has a body, their is a heavenly mother and father, Jesus is the Christ, and the holy ghost is a personage and a name the angels can partake in his name and act in his name and power, science explains how God does what he does, and the restored gospel of Jesus Christ that is still being restored to this day is true. I know from personal experience, I know from angels, I know from miracles, I know from promises, I know from Jesus Christ, that this Gospel is true.
Noted. Thanks for sharing
Thank you for going down this line of thought. For those of us who believe in God, we hope that science explains how God does things. Unfortunately science, at least mainstream science, is based on Darwinian evolutionary concepts and excludes God from the conversation. When we understand that Darwin hated God, but was not an atheist and was trying to rewrite nature excluding the presence of God, then we more fully understand the religion of evolution and that it is trying to destroy the faith of people who do believe in God. Unfortunately they omit a massive amount of science that is too controversial for them because it specifically goes against what they believe in the way of evolution. There are a few fairly simple ways to disprove most of what science has taught, and I love science and technology, but when it has been taken over by faithless people who want to control the narrative, then how can we really come to a true understanding of how God really works. I believe that science in the past has always tried to show how God does things, but modern science does not try to do that anymore. I do believe that the most important thing is our testimony in Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father and in living prophets. Joseph Smith was a true profit and that the book of Mormon is true as well. This should be our foundational belief in our life and this should be our focus. Me personally, I am highly interested in the intellectual conversation and trying to prove things that are not provable, and the conclusion I've come to is that the world does not see things for the way they really are. There is too much control over a small amount of information and they will not allow science to contradict what it is that they believe. I want people to increase their faith in our heavenly Father and in the plan of salvation and in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I am all for asking good questions. But realize you won't have the answers from the world as clearly as you receive answers from God. 😊
I understand what you're saying, but all the cultures through the world have stories of a world-wide flood: Japan, Australia, the native cultures of Central and South America, India.
I’ve generally been hesitant to take every genesis story as historic fact, but this way of explaining it make so much sense.
God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. It's our understanding that changes, and grows. Precept upon Precept. Something that Jesus has said that's stayed with me alot is "always question"
Fantastic!
I would just like to point out that at 2:55 when they show an image of a flat earth it is an incorrect image of a flat earth. (What?!?) It shows water falling off of the "edge" of the earth down into empty space. An accurate depiction of the ancient concept of a flat earth would not have edges like that. The edge would be where the firmament meets the land and where the cosmic waters started. There would be no place for the water to "fall" into. Somewhat ironically the depiction of a flat earth unintentionally imposes our modern concept of the earth existing in empty space onto the ancient idea of a flat earth. Which is exactly what Ben is telling us not to do.
This is (one reason) why modern flat earthers make no sense because they don't even know how to construct a flat earth cosmology correctly. It's a mishmash of modern and ancient ideas.
I enjoyed that very much, personally I've always liked the idea that the flood was regional, specifically towards the end of an ice age where the Mississippi River and others were all blocked up by an iceberg, when it burst it destroyed everything in it's path, including any evidence of humans. I would guess God had them gather the animals as they were regional and he wanted to keep them around. But that's my speculation.
But how do you get Noah landing in the old world in eastern Turkey and his kids populating places like Egypt?
This is what I like the term legend. Legends might have factual origins but have been elaborated upon for hundreds of year so that we can't be certain of the original facts.
People underestimate that such principles as “live by the sword, die by the sword” have left a mark to raise so many people out of violent traditions and reach for justice, better ethics, and diplomacy rather than revering the apex predator like Cain in Genesis.
So from Abraham who saw the heavens and the earth, and then living in Egyptians who knew Astronomy, the Israelites went from understanding a spherical earth to think that it is flat?
Water covered the tops of mounts. From what I have seen of ancient writings, they show water being ejected from the tops of mountains as well, such as in the Rocky Mountains we have tons of natural springs and mountain top lakes. It is likely that water erupted from the earth as Genius states and that it rained heavily.
I personally think that the face of the land can be flooded without being submerged under the depths of the deep.
Everywhere I have been, I have been told has been underwater at some point, it would be difficult to find a place that has never been submerged or covered in water.
I know many regions have their own flood myths. Some survived by fleeing to the mountains, some oddly enough went underground, others had boats.
I wonder where Noah’s launch point was? Prophets have stated that the flood was a baptism, Christ was perfect and still was baptized.
Yes much of scripture has been romanticized by us and our teachers and that is why soo many did not recognize the Savior during his mortal ministry, many will still miss His second coming. Many do not see the current signs because people have a romanticized expectation.
Interesting... If you understand geology in a more correct way, the way that science does not believe, then water coming from the earth makes a lot of sense. I believe that there is substantial evidence and that's there is no magma layer but a mass of water underneath the crust of the earth. The continents are floating on water and pushed out because of centrifugal force. I believe it's possible that a massive comet came by the Earth and slowed the rotation just enough so that the continents would sink, maybe a couple hours, but it would take a year for the earth to float back up. This would explain the massive number of post-diluvial lakes around the world. This would also explain much of the ice built up on the poles along with the ice age. There's just so much evidence out there that science does not have it correct when it comes to the geology of the earth and they will not allow that information to be broadcast because it goes specifically against their religion of evolution. I think good members of the church get caught up in the science of the world because it tends to logically explain things. Part of that logic is understanding that atheist scientists will not logically put things into scientific study if it goes against their religion of science and evolution. So how can we get a clear picture of what is true if scientists are not willing to weigh all of the evidence?
Good questions, thank you for your comment
I disagree with this dude with too much to text
The Earth was immersed totally at one time in the epoch past long before most life existed. So if the Earth needed to happen then it happened long before there was anyone around.
@@raquels6854 Wrong? Wrong what?
15:00. THe whole point of a language is so we can use the words on a page.
A little late to the party, I really like what was talked about and shared. However, I really don't like what Ben said about there not being a literal flood because of the lack of evidence. The Book of Mormon is the exact same way with many of the things in there, but God has said that all of the Earth's truths will be revealed in time. I'm not against the idea of maybe the flood story being a bit more fictional than factual in order to teach us the things we need to know, but saying that the lack of evidence and that God would be a trickster god if He didn't give us all the scientific evidence just kinda rubs me the wrong way.
Anyways, sorry for the rant! I love what you guys do! Keep up the good work!
When I first heard the idea that early scripture might not be 100% literal it kind of shook my faith a bit. Now it seems to help me understand what the actual intent of the stories was meant to be without getting hung up in the literal of it. It does draw interesting comparisons though. Consider that the more correct translation for rib would baculum (penis bone) now also consider that anthropologist suggest that pre-modern humans lost the baculum as they moved toward monogamy. Adam gave his "rib" to obtain a wife and humans lost their "rib" as they became monogamous. We know Adam was a real person but how literal his story is more ambiguous. Personally, I prefer the poetic version
Best channel on YT hands down boys, love your content for real
Great overview. Thank you, Ben!
Gentile perspective is always science first, faith last.
11:48
If we follow this line of thinking, isn’t it more likely that Jesus’ reported resurrection was allegorical/myth and not based on an actual event?
No, not at all. Ben is talking specifically about the context of early Genesis, how the original audience understood the story od the flood. It is a matter of genre in scripture.
Genesis 1 through 11 have a specific genre that doesn't match our modern "jornalistic history of documenting real facts" idea of what is history. The new testament gospels are another genre, which is much more close to documenting real facts.
Why should the genre of the flood story have anything to do with Jesus' resurrection?
@@bens5507: Why would genre apply to what events most likely transpired in actuality?
@@EstevanLPLeal: If you came upon a story you knew to be mixed fact and fiction, how would you determine which events were more likely true?
I am grateful that the leaders of the Church have given us the agency and opportunity to determine for ourselves whether the Flood was global, local, or cosmological. It allows us to explore different interpretations without risking our faith or our membership.
My understanding, B4 flood, 1 continent. The Flood broke up the Continent and water came out making our current status. In or about the 2nd coming, The Continents will be restored to 1 continent.
19:10. Has anybody actually said that the earth needed baptism? I've never heard it.
One point that you seem to be missing is that Noah becomes a patriarchal figure similar to Adam, because he is the father of all living. The account of Genesis is also confirmed by revelation in the book of Moses, as well as nearly all ancient cultures. There is some danger in believing that scripture is only an analogy and not historically correct, as it leads one to question other miraculous and supernatural events, such as the resurrection, as a literal event. Peter uses the flood to teach about the need of baptism and coming into Christ, Noah being a symbol of Christ. See Gospel topics: Noah in the gospel library. (Peter 3:20-21)
The LDS position on creation and the flood are things that keep me from embracing the church. I've studied these things and debated evolutionists, and I have come to the conclusion the biblical accounts are literally true. In fact, it's the scientific facts that caused me to embrace the Bible and the evangelical belief system. But I continue to meet with the missionaries just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding the BOM and the LDS church.
Good video! I’d love for a follow up video with a special guest of Rodney Meldrum if you could make that happen!
I can definitely buy this thought process. I've been very skeptical of the idea of a worldwide flood ever since I was a kid
Unfortunately it because what we are taught about science. I don't fault people for not understanding science. My personal belief is that much of what we understand about science is incorrect in some way or fashion. There is a massive amount of evidence to prove that there was a worldwide flood. We are just not taught these facts because science tends to suppress things that Don't fit there narrative. Another unfortunate thing is, I know people who have left the church specifically on this issue and it makes me sad. My only real point is that things are not as they always seem. There is a massive amount of information that is absolutely necessary to have to understand how powerful a worldwide flood existence actually is. I am all about increasing faith and knowledge in God, but at the same time it is a massive process and undertaking to learn truth. I think we have been bombarded with so much information that it makes it difficult to distinguish fact from fiction. I hope and pray that you can continue your journey in the gospel with faith and be able to learn things that will help you increase that faith in God. That is the most important thing, and as we pursue the truth, our testimony will be strengthened.
@@michaelwhipple347 There's really not a massive amount of evidence to support a worldwide, global flood, where the tops of all the mountains (even the Himalayas) were covered with water. Did Noah have access to satellite imagery to confirm that all land everywhere was covered with water? Or could there have been a more localized flood which swept Noah out to sea from where he originated (North America/Mississippi river valley perhaps) out to the ocean, where it would appear that all the land was gone for a very long time while he was at sea? I believe there was a flood, and I believe the scriptures are true, I just disagree with the particular reading of the scriptures that seems to mandate a "global flood" as the only correct possible interpretation.
What about Pangaea ? It is my opinion that the ark was sitting on top of mt ararat the whole time while the land masses moved
Noah said, "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth ; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave." After the flood, Noah lived 350 years.
What about the flood mentioned in the book of Mormon in this understanding. Did they think the universe was crashing in on itself? Or perhaps they're were heavy rains, and looking back on the text or the way they understood it thought it was the worldly flood? Perhaps their was a bit storm that tossed the seas like the book of Mormon explains and a general rain storm around the Earth? Maybe Noah with the Animals was just understood as part of the story to explain their understanding or their mythology of the event that actually occured with Noah and the great storm and the great rain storm on the seas.
We really do not know what details they believed. They had a story concerning the flood, but it is not explained in great detail. We have a tendency to assume the Book of Mormon prophet understood the Flood the same way we do, but there isn't many details on which to build.
Ben takes a logical approach to the flood. He uses scientific information to reach his specific conclusions. My personal belief is that there is a massive amount of information that is suppressed by the scientific atheist community because it does not fit the model of evolution. If you ever want to go down that rabbit hole there are plenty of UA-cam videos that help you to understand that things are not as they seem. The most important part of the flood story is to understand that it is a true story. Whether it is exactly literal or not is not the point. The point to the flood story is that mass destruction comes when everybody is wicked. It is a matter of faith that we understand the importance of the flood story.
Now we know why there ain't no Unicorn, right?
Why are we appealing to the perspective of ancient Israelites for clarity on the Bible? Shouldn't that be what latter-day scripture does?
Your guest is very intelligent, no doubt. But that doesn't mean all his assumptions are correct. Even what he thinks about ancient culture and what the people thought at the time could be flawed. We don't know. He doesn't know 100%. What my heart believes is that Noah was a prophet and was the head of a gospel dispensation. I believe he was a real person. If you don't believe the story of Noah was real, what do you believe was real in the Bible or the Book of Mormon? Are there any true miracles from the scriptures? I know that some aspects of stories from scriptures are symbolic etc. But for me, I err on the side of the scriptures being true. For me, there was some type of flood. The Red Sea really did part for the Israelites to pass through. Christ really did heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out devils and much more. Your guest likes to rely mostly on his intelligence and research. I prefer to rely on faith knowing that there is much more to be learned and revealed. Each of us needs to study the gospel in faith, inviting the spirit to be with us.
The Flood is part of Church teachings. It is found in the Pearl of Great Price in Moses Chapter 7 God explains his reasons for causing the flood in removing its inhabitants, and its also mentioned in 1 Peter 3:20, how they wound up in the spirit world afterwards 2 Peter 2:5 and that the Earth was baptized with Water, because later on it will be baptized again with fire..........
I agree with you that this guest isn’t on any position to possibly be able to tell us what ancients would have believed unless he was alive three and a half thousand years ago, which he wasn’t.
It’s always an arrogant assumption to claim to know what people that long ago understood about the world, falsely attributing a cavemen like mentality to them.
Bible scholars and archaeologists for a long time said that nations of the ancient Near East didn’t use to follow a strict calendar as the bible describes Israel as following with regards to the different feasts.
Only until they uncovered evidence that other nations actually did commonly use to follow similar organised calendars with their own festivals.
So called scholars and academics don’t have enough information to claim to know how ancients saw the world.
Even in the bible we get an acknowledgement that the earth is a circle.
Isaiah 40:22
“It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in”
Ben also believes that Noah was a real prophet and the head of dispensation. He didn't claim that the story of the Flood was not based on real events. His claim that the message taught in Genesis is not dependent on it possessing the same level of historical and scientific accuracy we expect from modern journalism.
It is the moral that matters, after all Moses is recording a story that may have been passed by word of mouth for over 1000 years. It seems unlikely that Moses would have the same understanding that Noah did. We have over 2000 years of Jewish Rabbinical commentaries that give a pretty good idea how the early Israelites would have understood it, very different from most modern interpretations. Sometimes we trap ourselves into insisting the story is making claims that the text does not support. The moral of a new creation, of God giving his people a chance to start over, that is what is preserved. How can we apply those lessons in our lives today matters so much more.
@@brettmajeske3525 When it come to the scripture because I believe the prophets recorded certain things happening in the timelines of the past, present and future. Like
with the consumption we have on the earth now....I don't think its a book of just only a collection of moral stories but contain prophecies of things happening in
different time periods.
@@germanslice I agree with that as does Ben if his blog is to be believed. The concern is correctly identifying which is which. Some is parables, and some of those parables use the names of actual prophets. We do not have the record of Noah, or that of any of his fathers. Joseph did claim the record of Enoch was contained in the sealed portion of the Golden Plates, but we do not have that either.
It is like debating whether or not Washington actually cut down the cherry tree or not. We can't prove that he did, but one way or the other it doesn't not change the moral lesson. If it turns out that it was an apple tree instead of cherry, would that mean that honesty doesn't matter?
My question is, Adam and Eve were in what is now the state of Missouri. Noah built the ark in the Western Hemisphere, yet ended up in the Middle East, having sailed across what is now the Pacific Ocean. Also, the flood legend is had by many other cultures on both hemispheres. I realize the legends probably traveled from the Old World to the New, but how does Ben explain it? Geology doesn't put contenental drift back to only Noah's time, but much further. The Earth was “baptized” by water, so it will be cleansed by fire, then experience a resurrection to a glorious sea of glass and become like the sun.
So how did Noah travel around the world, so to speak? Relegating it to parable doesn't explain that.
One more question for Ben. The amount of evidence for the Book of Mormon being literal is about the same as the evidence for a literal global flood. In fact, both the Jaredites and Nephites are described as having Noah-like support from God to build boats. Do you give the BoM a similar assessment as Genesis for historicity?
I think the distinction to be made, in orthodox circles, is that Joseph Smith claimed to have seen the gold plates; he claimed to have seen the (resurrected form of the) guy who wrote them; and the BoM record itself presents itself as history with none of the grammatical or hyperbolic or humorous “tells” you might see in some OT books that suggest they may may not have been intended as history. It’s really, really hard to disclaim Book of Mormon historicity without also concluding that Joseph Smith didn’t see or hear the things he said he saw and heard; which inevitably calls his honesty into question.
I think (as a believing Mormon) that a “faithful” perspective of Joseph Smith practically demands accepting the historicity of the BoM; any other paradigm is doomed to unravel eventually.
@@mgy401 I'm always reluctant to challenge honesty, because there's many ways for one to be mistaken. Many people claim many things. The question is how can we test which claims are true?
I really like what is being presented. It Make sense to me.
What about Pangea
That was millions of years before the story of Noah, so not sure how it's relevant
@@joshuaworkman1 who said it was millions of years ago? Oh yeah that would be the people who believe in Darwinian evolution. The people who don't believe in God. The people who don't believe the Bible is true. The people who hide a massive amounts of relevant scientific information so that they can continue their worship in science and evolution. Whether things happened millions of years ago or not are inconsequential to me though. What matters is my understanding that the scriptures are true and that prophets exist and that we can know for ourselves what truth really is. I personally think evolution is a fallacy but people are entitled to their beliefs. I think the real truth is something so incomprehensible that we would never believe it if we were told all the truth right now. That is why we have to go down the path that we do in life as we learn line up on line and precept upon precept. I do not follow people for believing the earth is millions of years old, but this is a whole other topic of conversation. I do believe that the theory of evolution has helped people to discontinue their faith in the Bible and in the flood story. I find that unfortunate. I am okay with Ben sharing his personal views because I'm sure it helps strengthen people's testimonies, even though I can disagree on some of his points. I personally do believe in the flood story and that it actually happened. There would just be a lot of new science that you would personally have to believe in and discontinue your belief in some of the old science to understand more of where I'm coming from. I diverged a long time ago from the regular scientific thoughts... I personally love science and technology and I think they're is a great deal for us to learn and we will continue to learn science and technology well after this life, and into the celestial kingdom, so I think science is very very relevant. I just choose to learn about science as a whole rather than picking out the parts that the darwinists and evolutionists and atheists tell me that I need to believe in... It's a journey. I mean no disrespect, I just like to help people look at a bigger picture. I'm not saying I'm right in on my beliefs, I'm just saying that not everybody else is right in there is either. We need to come to a testimony for ourselves, and that is what the most important thing is... Thanks for your comment. 😊
Pangea was probably the form of the continents before the flood. My personal thought is that pangea was no longer in existence after the flood and everything shifted around during that year or two or three after the initial start of the flood. It would actually make a massive amount of sense when you look at the geology and the different layers that are throughout the Earth, the things that evolution tries to explain. I think the gospel of Jesus Christ is absolutely fantastic and as I learn more about science, there are many many more answers out there than we could ever imagine. I personally think that we have to change the way we look at science because science is controlled by people who do not believe in God and will dismiss any science that goes against their religion of evolution.
Their way of understanding the event. Mythology of the fact, even if Noah and a boat or people crossed to the Americas, the mythology or how people could be interpreting or understanding this event could could be different, (like the every single animal) part.
It is important to remember that Ben's use of the word mythology does not imply falsehood, more a focus on the lesson taught than the details used to teach it.
One thing I don't like about Spackman's way of speaking is that he's constantly equivocating who's ultimately responsible for a lot of different ideas. For instance, if Genesis was actually revealed to Moses by god, then it doesn't matter what ancient Israelites thought of the text. If the genre of writing is misunderstood by mankind, that is god's problem. Also, the baptism of the Earth was not an idea that "we" ran heavily with, it was god's idea in the Book of Moses, to substantiate that notion. If it wasn't god, it was Joseph Smith, not "we".
Where’s the evidence that the ancient prophets thought the world was flat?
I agree that we need to take biblical interpretation more seriously but I think historical events are cleverly veiled intentionally. So you can’t be too dismissive on the reality of the flood. First looking at all the text we have this was far from an extended rain. It was the end of the world, a global cataclysm beyond anything since the Younger Dryas. More people need to know about the Burckle Crater impact event. It is estimated to be around 5000 years ago. According to a research paper out of Columbia University and work done by Bruce Masse, the energy generated from this impact was 200,000-300,000 times that of the Krakatoa eruption. Taking in all of the data, this comet was fragmented with 2 additional impact sites in the NW Pacific and Equatorial Pacific. I would suggest that there were many smaller impact sites on land and ocean that would be hard to attribute to this event but you could only assume exist. What we know about the crater is that its size is 18 miles in diameter. What’s more impressive is it is beneath 16,000 feet of ocean. As you know, 100’s of cultures around the world have information that biblical scholars do not favor and archeologists or historians don’t have the full picture due to the relatively new findings from the researchers. You can also assume that the scientific community is also not very keen on supporting the validity of a biblical story as this fits in nicely with the chronology of Noah. The thermal effects of the fireball within a 600 mile radius would be extreme. The air pressure blast wave would have toppled trees and stripped them of leaves and branches as far as 1,200 miles. That would be all of Madagascar and everything south of DRC “The Congo” or Tanzania. Falling Ejecta would have covered much of Africa, the Arabian Peninsula, India, South East/Mainland Asia and Australia. I would imagine major earthquakes would have been felt around the world. Everywhere would have experienced the fallout of condensed vapor. People would have seen the sky completely filled with doomsday clouds with intense lighting and hurricane force winds. Super heated ejecta would be re-entering the atmosphere in many places and would have looked like fire raining from the sky. Some locations would experience super heated resinous rain. The Tsunami would have had varied effects but Madagascar and Australia would have seen 700+ ft waves. All of this would have occurred before a continuous rain out that is hard to determine due to multiple ocean impact sites. You could estimate that the Red Sea would have seen ocean waves 400-600ft high and completely submerging low lying areas of the Middle East. In most coastal areas surrounding the Indian Ocean, a general elevation of 1000 feet above sea level could be survivable.
The myths involving “flood storms” are compelling in that they are worldwide suggesting proof of multiple impacts. We see stories of rain and wind going continuously for weeks. Even in the Americas we see myths describing celestial events, mega tsunamis and heated re-entry ejecta. The environmental processes in the aftermath would have been far more devastating due to continued earth quakes, volcanic activity, flash flooding, starvation and in general extreme weather events lasting for some time. I believe a great majority of these myths and scripture encode information about this type of celestial destruction.
Because of the combination of astronomical, archaeological and seasonal information in these myths you can make an educated guess of a specific date of around May 10, 2807 BC. All of the evidence is consistent with this time period. Based on the descriptions of giant, elongated fiery supernatural beings prior to or at the beginning of the flood storm, it is clear that it supports a comet that was visible for several days by most cultures. Astronomy software allows you to look back at several phenomena such as planetary conjunctions and a solar eclipse at around the same time. So there you go. By the way the eclipse happened right between the horns of Taurus and everything points to the Taurid meteor stream as the source. This is why the Bronze Age is obsessed with the solar disk between the horns on everything. Both sides can dumb it down.
Was not aware of this crater, extremely interesting thank you for bringing up!
I think the science of darwinianism and evolution purposely hide the scientific research that would prove the flood to have happened in real life
12:00. The flood doesn't look like a parable. None of Jesus parables tell of world changing events.
I wonder how much of the Book of Mormon Ben thinks is a myth. Or does he see that as a historical record as the Book of Mormon states it is.
It's ancient history, which was written very differently from modern history.
Why must we believe in miraculous things that require a suspension of disbelief to give meaning to Life? Why is the extraordinary nature of everything we see before us in the universe not enough that we need to turn to fairytales and myths?
The science that would help explain all of this has been suppressed because it doesn't specifically support the religion of evolution
Don’t answer a fool to their folly. If the atheist doesn’t believe in God, they have no standard by which to call something good/bad; true/false.
I have a random question that I am going to throw out to anyone who would like to answer. Is the LDS religion the only religion out there that encourages people to pray to know truth, to question (not doubt but question) beliefs and to ask God to know if something is true.
Well I’m a Jehovah’s Witness and we don’t really do that.
We might pray for God to help give us more faith but we don’t really pray to receive a sign that it’s true since, asking for a sign could be thought of as a lack of faith to begin with.
So I haven’t heard of other religions doing this, although Pentecostal type religions also look for signs such as speaking in tongues and supposed healing and things.
Again it’s a type of looking for external confirmation outside the pages of the bible.
@@cultfiction3865 ok. So why do so many consider the Bible the ultimate authority? Why not consider asking God the ultimate authority. That may seem like a silly question and you may just answer that the Bible is Gods word but I am trying to dig a little deeper here.
@@Imtryingtobelikejesus-m1m I think there is a deep-seeded belief in the bible as the ultimate word of God. I mean, consider that many faiths believe that God gave us the bible, that He used to have prophets on the earth but He no longer does; so I think they would believe that the Bible must have all the information and all the answer anyone will ever need. After all, if God is never going to speak to us again, shouldn't He give us all the answers in the book? On the other hand, anyone who has the Bible, considers it the word of God, and leaves in James 1:5 is, by default, encouraging people to pray for truth. The problem, I would think, is that many faiths simply skip over that verse, or they just encourage their followers to pray based on their narratives instead of objective truth.
Personally, I could never believe in a religion that said, "we are the truth, we have all the truth, and not even God could give you - directly - a better truth than we have." I NEED the ability to question information and ask God for myself.
@@DannyAGray I agree. I am not scared to question (not doubt but question) my beliefs because I just want to know the truth, wherever it may be. I think it is great that the LDS religion encourages people to ask God for answers as he knows all things. Ya, it can be risky as we will not always get it right, but I know the Spirit does testify of truth and righteous truth will lead you to follow the Saviors example. I am excited to continue to learn and grow in truth and I do NOT believe the Bible is the only truth we will learn throughout eternity (that would be pretty boring). I will continue to be an open minded seeker of truth and I will live my life seeking for the Spirit to testify of truth!
@@DannyAGray but in that claim, we never claim that others don't have truth. I actually learn more about my faith when I talk to people not within my church. My testimony in God is greater because I am able to find truth outside my personal belief. We simply believe that all truth belongs in the LDS church, not that we have it all. We have had more enlightenment available to us and we share that with the world because we love all people. We want others to come to the same conclusion we have and find more peace and joy, not to be limited to what man has to tell us what to believe. Thank you for your comment 😊
I have been quiet for while but I must speak today. First of all if the bible was not historical it would not have genealogy. Genealogy is the history of a family tree. Jesus genealogy through Mary and even his step father Joseph can be traced back to Adam in the New Testament. All human beings today come from Noah anf his three sons and wives. God promised mankind that he would not flood the entire earth again and gave us the rainbow as a symbol of his promise. I don't have a promise with science or archeology because many times it proves the bible and explains how God did what He did. If the bible says the earth was covered, the earth was covered.
David didn't say there was no history, but that like the current Come Follow Me manual says, there are multiple genres within the Old Testament. Some are history, some are parable, some are poetry, some are a blend of all three. The idea of the Flood being global comes from the English translation, not the original Hebrew.
@@brettmajeske3525 I appreciate your response. I've studied only a little about Hebrew, Arabic, and Greek translations to English for the sake of the bible. I don't have a problem researching new information and discoveries.
Nevertheless, I still believe the flood was global. I do agree that there are at least three elements of history, parable, and poetry in the bible but the parables and poetry put together would probably be less than 15 percnt of the bible. You can tell the parables because actual names are not used. (They will say a man , a woman, maidens, or so forth) You can find the poetry and songs in Psalms, Proverbs, and the Song of Solomon. 80 plus percent of the bible are referring to events that line up with events in world history and many have archeological support.
The Book of Mormon begins with a family escaping the Babylonian Conquest of King Nebuchadnezzar over the King of Judah Zedekiah. Events can be found in the Book of Isaiah and Daniel. The Apochra Books such as Jasher, Jubilees, and Enoch share iadditional information about events in the Books of Genesis and other OT stories.
Again thanks for your response.
@@theministerartist9249 I am not trying to convince to believe or not believe in a global flood, just so that people understand that the Bible itself never makes the claim of a global flood in the original text. And there are many examples of parables that use names, often symbolic names that have related meanings in the original Hebrew. Jonah is very obviously a parable, it even has the Hebrew equivalent of "Once upon a time..."
I see no reason to believe that a flood capable of wiping out a civilization settled in the lowlands of Adam Ondi Ahman would be at all implausible.
The interesting thing with all of this is who said that geography is exactly the same as it was before the flood.. many changes I think were made on Earth and would be completely unrecognizable. I think it tends to be a moot point trying to place anything anywhere previous to the flood. So if you were in a valley or high on a mountain, it would probably be destroyed or moved during the flood. It will be interesting to learn what really happened during the flood. I'm looking forward to that class after this life...😊
The only controversial aspect of the story is what this says about the Old Testament writers' concept of their god. This story reinforces the idea that Yahweh is not a good or kind god, but a vengeful, cruel god that rewards obedience above rightousness. In other places Yahweh is described as being absolutely good, so it is a subject worthy of discussion. But in the 2020s to still be talking about it as if it was a literal account is absurd.
Geologists have proven that at the end of the last ice age, the dams burst and caused a big flood, sweeping away everything in its path. For example, there was once a giant glacier lake in Montana. It is also believed that a dam burst out into the Arctic. This may have caused a tsunami to land in Europe, and spread across the Mediterranean. Also, the sudden exportation of freshwater into the Atlantic would have slowed down the Atlantic circulation and would then have caused the cooling in the weather observed in Europe. A tsunami and sudden cold weather, killing the plants and therefore the animals? Disasters have repeatedly had a big effect on the population through time. This must have been particularly terrible for the legend to remain until this day. I think what people will have a real problem with is my timing. Ice age? No way.
It is interesting that you use this specific example. I use the example of the post deluvial lakes as exact proof that the worldwide flood absolutely existed. How do you get that massive amount of water in lakes all around the world without having a worldwide flood. Otherwise the world would have been much less inhabitable. I wish I could share with you all the science that I know that absolutely proves the worldwide flood happens and that we have a massive amount of geological proof of it. In fact regular science cannot prove it because science discards information that goes specifically against their evolutionary format. The scientific community believes that if you do not believe in evolution then your science is not real. The problem with the science that I personally believe in is that most people would have to completely rewrite the way they understand the earth. People are not willing to make those changes, so it does not do any good to bring them up here. But I guarantee you there's plenty of evidence that absolutely proves that the flood absolutely happened, but that it was a worldwide event. Thank you for your comment😊
👏
How did they fit the whales in the ark lol jk
If this was not a historical telling, and not a parable, What is it? I re-read Genesis 6-9 after watching this and no, I do not read Hebrew, I read English. It really reads like a history, not a fable or myth to teach a lesson. I would like to hear more from Ben with a critical examination of the fundamentalist, young earth view on this.
Are you familiar with the Kolob Theorem?
Sounds to me like someone is looking for a sign. We all know what Christ thinks of sign seekers.
Just because you don't understand how the flood could have been a world wide event, doesn't mean it didn't happen. God is GOD. I would recommend putting aside all the doctrine & just read the bible alone..
So what you are saying is that we all need to abandon English and learn Hebrew and Greek, the languages in which the Bible was written?
Noah is a sacred story rather than a sacred history
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson gives a beautiful lecture on Noah’s Ark as seen threats psychological perspective. He has 13 lectures, each on a specific biblical story. The lectures are 4 years old and greatly reviered.
God is real everyone. Stop worrying about all this. “And now, my son, I desire that ye should let these things trouble you no more, and only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance.” Alma 42:29
Here is my question: Why would God choose to drown babies as opposed to poofing them out of existence or turning them into salt like Lot's wife? Something painless and instant as opposed to filling a baby's lungs with water until they die. It seems like god wanted to watch babies suffer a terrible death.
That's not an easy question to answer. I will try to share my belief and how I see it. Personally, I have seven children. I hate seeing them suffer, I don't like it when they have difficult times and they are in pain. I cannot imagine the suffering of any person in the act of drowning. That just seems horrible. There are, however, consequences to our actions. The people were warned that there would be a flood and they had every ability to repent and to come unto God and be saved on the ark. Noah preached for over 100 years before the doors were sealed up on the ark. The idea that God wants people to die an ignominious death is absurd, but you are entitled to your belief. This goes back to me being a father and doing what I can to make sure my children are not in pain. I believe God loves us as his children much much more than I could ever love my own children, and that is a lot. The consequence of babies drowning is on the heads of their parents because they knew what was coming and God cannot go against his word. The world suffered the consequences for sin. I am sure this is not going to be a good enough explanation for you, but I think this is more closely related to the truth then what you have stated and how God wants babies to suffer a terrible death... I do appreciate the question. I do hope that I have at least given you a different way to look at it. My hope is not to convince people of what I believe, but to at least look at it from a different angle. I hope this helps. 😊
@@michaelwhipple347 the point still stands. God prefers people and even babies to suffer a painful death when he could’ve given them a painless one. Doesn’t that disturb you? God looks down at babies and toddlers and prefers to drown them when he could’ve instantly vaporized them. Isn’t dying punishment enough? Why does it need to be painful?
@@dukeofsahib4967 I'm trying to find where it says that God likes seeing people suffer. Or that he wants pain and suffering. Or that God is heartless. Or that he wants babies and toddlers to suffer... I personally don't hold those beliefs so I can't sufficiently answer your question. So please share why you think someone like me would hold that belief? Thanks 😊
@@michaelwhipple347 God had the choice between a painful method of execution and a painless method of execution. He chose the painful method. Therefore he prefers that children and infants suffer a painful death when he could’ve given them a painless one. That’s truly sick
@@dukeofsahib4967 I'm just going to disagree with you. I don't agree with your premise. I don't agree that God like to see people in pain. Don't tell me that you know how God feels or thinks when it seems that you disregard all the great and wonderful things that God does. For me, natural consequences happen all the time. Do you blame God for those things too? Do you blame God when all the bad things happen to people? Just curious, trying to figure out what your goal is in asking your original question... Did you want an answer? Or just argue? I assumed you asked a legit question you wanted an answer to...
Didnt Moses speak to the earth like it was a living being? Maybe the earth did require baptism. We dont know.
I think so since the earth will be celestialzed.
He doesn’t address modern day revelation telling us Noah is the Angel Gabriel.
Even if you believe the story of Noah's Flood is allegorical, that doesn't mean Noah himself wasn't a real person. Similarly, even though Abraham Lincoln vampire slayer is fiction, that doesn't mean Abraham Lincoln is not a real person.
Oh so many questions. I'm just glad they feel safe enough to put this video out. I'm pretty sure Russell Nelson would have some things to say.
Why would that matter? You seem to think that Ben doesn't believe that Noah was a real prophet. You are mistaken, his blog is very explicit that he does. He just thinks as a whole we are focused on the wrong details.
@@leem3299 Why? It fits fairly well with what Come Follow Me has to say.
@@brettmajeske3525 That's not how it's framed here. He should have been more specific.
3:00. LIES. Moses who wrote Genesis was shown all thing by God. God showed him all this earth. The wording could be used to describe the round earth we have. If you have a point, then atheism is true and need to quit the church.
1:27. Global and literal. Unless I'm wasting my time reading scriptures and learning scientific evidences of the past.
But the Bible never claims either of those things, nor does over 2000 years of Jewish traditions, the language and culture in which it was first written.
@@brettmajeske3525 So you are saying the King James translators or those between them and Moses shouldn't have transmitted, "ball the high hills," and "the whole heaven," and "And all flesh died" and "to destroy all flesh," and "every thing that is in the earth shall"? The Joseph Smith Translation doesn't correct that language. I say that all emcompassing language isn't wrong. The Pearl of Great Price uses similar all encompassing language.
I didn't only write about the scriptures in my original comment. Science tells us there was a world wide flood. There are huge common rock layers on multiple continents. The many fossils are best explained by the worldwide flood described in The Bible.
@@Hamann9631 Again, I am not disputing your, or anyone elses belief, I am just noting that in the original Hebrew Genesis is clearly talking about a limited landmass in the middle east. The use of the word "all" only explicitly refers to that land mass. The word translated as "in the earth", does not mean the planet earth, but 'dirt'.
Contextually it is used to mean just the middle east, with Africa, Asia, and Europe being known as the "isles of the sea".
If you want to believe in a global flood, that is your choice. 2000 years of Rabbinical commentaries informs us that is not how Jewish scholars understood the text in their native language.
If I were to talk about my home being flooded, all the land being covered with water and all flesh destroyed, most people would understand I was talking about Washtenaw county, or maybe the state of Michigan. In English such language is understood to mean the local area of which I have knowledge. The only claim Genesis makes is that all the land that Noah is aware of is covered. Perhaps land he wasn't aware of was also covered, but the Hebrew text does not actually make that claim.
@@brettmajeske3525 You are disputing my beliefs and THE CLEAR WORDING IN THE TEXT.
Your comment was shocking to me because usually you are right. Usuaully you are defending the truth. You and Ben are telling people God is a liar. You are telling us to not believe the scriptures.
You didn't show how the original text clearly showed it to be only a local flood. I don't put much trust in rabbinical commentaries, if they are doing mental gymnastics to avoid saying the truth.
So according to you "all" and "whole" are there.
Earth meaning the dirt on which we walk instead of the globe doesn't undo the world wideness of the flood. There is dirt on every continent.
Genesis is a revelation from God who knows the whole planet to His prophet Moses. It isn't Noah's perception.
@@Hamann9631 I don't mean to offend you, as I said before, there is room for multiple interpretations. Many modern Apostles have taught that the flood was worldwide, but some like Widtsoe, Brown, and Eyring believed it was only local. The Church doesn't have an official opinion either way.
Perhaps it is best to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Have you watched “Is Genesis History?” Check it out… there is proof of a global flood..
The Ark of Noah represents Jesus our Savior, according to the scriptures, Jesus is in us and we are in Jesus, we are in Christ. The Ark represents protection, shelter, Noah and his family are safe in the Ark, the Ark is perfect, like Jesus. When Noahs family entered into the Ark he has the protection of Jesus our Lord. They had the salvation of our Savior when they entered the Ark, (Jesus). Then they entered a new place a new life when the Ark made it to land, and we also have a new life through our savior Jesus Christ. Noah passed through to a new world, and left the old world behind, he entered the kingdom of God and was able to dwell with the Lord. John 14:20 At that day, you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
The earth is flat! ❤
So we delete comments, huh? Why did you delete perfectly respectful comments?
It was probably UA-cam. Comments with links, or those copy pasted from other sources often get deleted without any input from the Channel.
@@brettmajeske3525 it wasn't though. It's alright, I just don't understand what happened.
I believe in the God of miracles too. I am married to him. He is one of the same as the most high Father his name is Yahweh. Father Yahweh Sr. is the Father of little Yahweh who when born again through Mother Mary on earth came to get the sin out. Both Yahweh Sr and Yahweh Jr are both the same as the most high Father above them. Father Yahweh Srs body is the universe. Yahweh Jr is the first born son of Yahweh Sr. Little Yahweh known as Jesus came to get the sin out.
12 min. in and im not liking this episode! For a guy that is getting over his faith crisis with the LDS church, this guy is upsetting to hear. Basically saying.... "ahhh... whatever the bible says, may not be exactly truth... But its the lessons u get out of these STORIES is what counts!" If thats the case hes making, then that makes the bible a story book. I gotta think about continuing to watch this channel. This makes me very angry!
This guy sounds like those athiests "...God wouldnt hide the proof of the flood.. We dnt see proof of the flood"
Theres alot of thing God has not revealed yet, concerning proof of the Bible/BOM for reasons only He knows. But isnt that what faith is about.? I cant pick up what this guy is putting down! I dislike this episode so much! Wheres Kwaku when u need him!?
Hey my friend, remember that it’s ok to not fully understand some things. The story of the flood is not crucial to your testimony of the Savior and His deep love for you. Hold on to what you do know, the personal experiences you’ve had with the Devine and shelve the things you don’t fully comprehend for now. Understanding will come line upon line if and when you need it. Hang in there and just keep moving forward.
"It is of little significance as to whether Jonah was a real individual or one chosen by the writer of the book to write what is set forth therein. It is held by the Church that Job was a real character. It is barely possible that the book was one of the kind prevailing in olden times, setting forth certain principles in the form of a parable, as it was with the parables of Jesus Christ when in the flesh. **That is not of very great importance so long as the doctrines contained in the work are correct.** " Literally the First Presidency in 1921.
"whatever the bible says, may not be exactly truth" Whatever *you may interpret* the Bible to say may not be exactly truth. That's why we want to be so careful to interpret and understand the way the Israelites might have.
Hey! Thanks for your feedback. I’m so sorry you didn’t like this episode but we’re glad you’re expressing your concerns. The purpose of this episode wasn’t to discredit the Bible nor to persuade anyone to believe one way or the other. We just wanted to offer an interesting perspective that has been well-researched and is still faith promoting. We love the Bible so much and love the teachings found therein! Thanks again for your concern, we’re glad you’re here:)
I think you are misinterpreting what Ben Spackman is saying. He believes in the Bible. But he is saying that our interpretation of it is often simplistic and based merely on what we assume it says. To understand the Bible you need to know its background.
I always take the Scriptures literally unless the text tells me that it is a parable, allegory, or a strange image is presented, or has literally been explained as a symbolic representation by a Latter-Day Authority such as the Prophets, Apostles, Seventies etc. Modern academia has been at work trying to discard miracles and the supernatural with its Athiestic views. We had problems with that at BYU Provo periodically with the professors trying to destroy people's faith by asserting that most of the Scripture stories are just symbolic but could not happen because of these modern views. This guy, Ben is basically doing the same thing. Trying to peddle his sweet little abstract spirituality while asserting that this event didn't actually happen and that there's small stakes. He even hinted that he didn't know much about whether or not the Isrealites really knew what he was talking about. Beware of such. Even if there is Hebrew writing styles and symbolic gestures in the text, that doesn't mean that these things didn't actually happen.They were given the story according to their understanding. All we really know is that Noah was a Prophet who does speak in the POGP btw. Enoch saw the flood in vision of world events and was promised that his seed would continue in all the earth. The people were so wicked and violent and so God gathered the animals to a vessel which had been prepared, and swept all land dwelling creatures off the face of the earth, and Noah and his family continued the human race.
I agree with you that this guy shouldn’t be arguing with bible text.
If the flood was a parable the bible would have made that clear to the reader.
It was a literal historical event.
It’s silly for academics to make claim to how ancients understood the world when they weren’t alive 3 and a half thousand years ago.
I read books on bible archaeology and time after time are long standing beliefs bible scholars and archaeologists have held about ancient people only until discovering new evidence that demonstrates that they were wrong in their previous assumptions.
And it proves nothing for someone like this guy to come on here and make claim to how ancients saw the world.
Even his arguments are straw man arguments. He asks “what about the people in China or Australia?”
There is no evidence that either of those countries were inhabited back then. The earths population hadn’t probably grown enough at that point.
You are just too attached to your old dark lamp and is not recognizing Ben's much brighter lamp. His blog is awesome when you recognize that you can still learn a lot about scriptures.
You are aware of what Bringham Young, John Taylor, BH Roberts, James Talmage, John Witdsoe, LeGrand Richards, and Hugh B Brown have said about the story of the Flood? There is a long history within the Church of asserting that Noah was a Prophet (which Ben does as well) and that we do not fully understand the details. The point of its inclusion is to teach moral and spiritual truth. Ben is asserting that to understand the story literally requires seeking how it was understood to the original audience.
@@brettmajeske3525 And that is why I’d never become a Latter Day Saint.
Because you don’t believe the bible is inspired of God deep down.
If you believe the bible is inspired of God then why do you take the view that the things the bible writers recorded are all open to mans error?
Something inspired of God transcends mans errors.
Even Jesus himself confirmed his belief in the biblical flood of Noah’s day
Luke 17:26-27
“Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the Flood came and destroyed them all.”
Honestly the stuff that you Latter Day Saints say shocks me.
@@cultfiction3865 And your claim sounds like a lack of faith to me. Faith means accepting God's will, not what I want it to be, but how it actually is. Ben never said it wasn't based on actual events, just that the message it teaches is more important than determining how accurate the details may or may not be.
All that water had to go somewhere right? Get back to the ocean somehow. IMAGINE IT WEATHERED AND QUICKLY ERODED A HUGE CANYON…. The Grand Canyon.
Lake Bonneville
If you don't believe in Noah and the flood then you pretty much ignore scripture as a whole. 1) Comparing it to flat earth theory is absurd. 2) basic research into the earth layers shows it was global. 3) the earth was 1/4 the size it is now. All land was connected.
Also minimizing Noah as a righteous man totally misses the point. Noah is used with Job and Daniel in EZE 14.
So much stuff in this it is almost pointless to even go further. Smart???? Uh...
This is the problem I’m seeing from Saints unscripted.
The Mormons will undermine the bible by trying to change the meaning of what it says.
The argument that we do t understand the world as the Israelites did is utter garbage, because God inspired the bible for all humans of all generations to understand.
He didn’t inspire it for only the Israelites to understand from three and a half thousand years ago.
This guy is showing us that he questions Gods authorship of the bible, and implies that the bible is a book that only reflects men’s understanding.
Let me remind of of the scripture at 2 Timothy 3:16
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,”
ALL scripture is given by Gods inspiration not mans, which excludes the possibility that we are only getting an ancient worldview that was primitive.
Even the allegation that the Israelites believed the world was a flat disk with a dome over it is a biased reading of the creation account.
Job 26:7 “He stretches out the northern sky* over empty space,*
Suspending the earth upon nothing;”
Ancient people did have scientific understanding.
This guy is just another guy that has displaced all logic with academic idle chatter.
There is plenty of physical evidence that there was a worldwide flood
What is the best physical evidence for a worldwide flood?
From the Come, Follow Me manual:
Don’t expect the Old Testament to present a thorough and precise history of humankind. That’s not what the original authors and compilers were trying to create. Their larger concern was to teach something about God-about His plan for His children, about what it means to be His covenant people, and about how to find redemption when we don’t live up to our covenants. Sometimes they did it by relating historical events as they understood them-including stories from the lives of great prophets. Genesis is an example of this, as are books like Joshua, Judges, and 1 and 2 Kings. But other Old Testament writers did not aim to be historical at all. Instead, they taught through works of art like poetry and literature. The Psalms and the Proverbs fit in this category. And then there are the precious words of prophets, from Isaiah to Malachi, who spoke the word of God to ancient Israel-and, through the miracle of the Bible, still speak to us today.
Did all of these prophets, poets, and compilers know that their words would be read by people all over the world thousands of years later? We don’t know. But we marvel that this is exactly what has happened. Nations rose and fell, cities were conquered, kings lived and died; but the Old Testament outlasted them all, from generation to generation, from scribe to scribe, from translation to translation. Of course some things were lost or modified, and yet somehow so much was miraculously preserved.
These are just a few things to keep in mind as you read the Old Testament this year. Maybe God preserved these ancient writings because He knows you and what you are going through. Maybe He has prepared a spiritual message for you in these words, something that will draw you closer to Him and build your faith in His plan and His Beloved Son. Perhaps He will lead you to a passage or an insight that will bless someone you know-a message you can share with a friend, a family member, or a fellow Saint. There are so many possibilities. Isn’t that exciting to think about?
Books in the Old Testament
In most Christian versions of the Old Testament, the books are organized differently from how they were arranged when they were first compiled into one collection. So while the Hebrew Bible groups the books into three categories-the law, prophets, and writings-most Christian Bibles arrange the books into four categories: law (Genesis-Deuteronomy), history (Joshua-Esther), poetic books (Job-Song of Solomon), and prophets (Isaiah-Malachi).
Why are these categories important? Because knowing what kind of book you are studying can help you understand how to study it.
Here’s something to keep in mind as you begin reading “the law,” or the first five books of the Old Testament. These books, which are attributed to Moses, probably passed through the hands of numerous scribes and compilers over time. Still, the books of Moses are the inspired word of God, even though they are-like any work of God transmitted through mortals-subject to human imperfections (see Moses 1:41; Articles of Faith 1:8).
@@EstevanLPLeal So based on that above article, are you saying that Mormons don’t accept the bible?
I’ve spoken to Mormons in the past and one thing I find a bit deceptive is that to start with they claim that they believe the bible is Gods word and that the Book of Mormon supports or supplements it.
Then as time goes on I feel as though they start slowly promoting the Mormon literature higher while relegating the bible itself.
It’s subtle and gradual, but feels deceptive.
Teaching people that it’s ok to doubt certain things in the bible as long as you have full faith in the Book of Mormon, Pearl of great price, Doctrine and covenants and the Mormon prophets.
At this point it stops resembling Christianity altogether.
@@cultfiction3865 No, if anything we are saying the opposite. Who do you think has a better understanding, the person who wrote a text or a person reading a copy of a copy and a translation of a translation living in a different culture more than 2000 years later? Seeking to understand context is not rejecting the Bible, it is embracing it.
@@brettmajeske3525 You are implying that God is not capable of preserving his word.
If God can part the Red Sea, can defeat armies of hundreds of thousands of people and raise the dead and strike down thousands of people at once, and rain fire and sulfur from heaven, how isn’t he capable of preserving his word through his mighty power?
Your assertions are clearly wrong since there are tens of thousands of bible manuscripts and they all say exactly the same things.
If the bible was subject to mans folly the different manuscripts wouldn’t agree with each other
In response to what was said about the baptism of the earth:
President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876-1972) wrote: "The Lord here [in Doctrine and Covenants 88] informs us that the earth on which we dwell is a living thing, and that the time must come when it will be sanctified from all unrighteousness. In the Pearl of Great Price, when Enoch is conversing with the Lord , he hears the earth crying for deliverance from the iniquity upon her face (Moses 7:48). … It is not the fault of the earth that wickedness prevails upon her face, for she has been true to the law which she received and that law is the celestial law. Therefore the Lord says that the earth shall be sanctified from all unrighteousness" (Church History and Modern Revelation [1953], 1:366-67).
We know the earth itself is a living entity. Spackman's argument that the earth doesn't need to be baptized because it can't sin, or can't repent doesn't hold much water either. Christ was without sin too, but he was baptized anyway to fulfill all righteousness.
The above quote was not written while JFS ws prophet, and many of his fellow apostles disagreed with his many of his more conservative views. It is an opinion, not official Church policy.
@@brettmajeske3525 What are you arguing against here exactly? JFSs character? Disregard his words then. Read Moses 7 and D&C 88. They describe the earth as this living, sentient entity that will go through the same spiritual/physical changes we will.
@@Mcmj-ot4dt I am arguing that metaphor is metaphor.
@@brettmajeske3525 i dont think you're understanding me. It doesn't matter if the flood is a metaphor. Baptism is a metaphor too. It's a symbol for death and rebirth. My point is that the earth seems to be literally alive, and will die and be reborn just like we will. Some form of baptism, metaphorical or otherwise, is probably required. And I believe that's what the great flood was.