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- Опубліковано 13 гру 2024
- Dr. Leighton Flowers, Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists, breaks down the context of John 6:44 and shows how this popular Calvinist prooftext in fact, does not support Calvinism.
For more on John 6:44 go here:
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#LeightonFlowers #Calvinism #John644
The Father draws people by teaching them. Teaching enables them. It is our responsibility to hear, listen, and learn. A few verses later the opposers say “Who can listen to this?” Great work, Leighton!
In john ch 12 Jesus said He's doing the drawing now
Great work Mr. Leighton, as an ex-Reformed Baptist, John chapter 6 was one of the most difficult passages for me to understand. Sometimes we just over complicate things in God's word. Thanks for exposing the simplicity of the Gospel!!!!!!
1Jn 4:19:
¹⁹ We love him, because he first loved us.
@@JESUS_Saves3747 Great reply! Re: We love him bc he first loved us.
We know why; but how do we show God that we love him?
Note John 14:15 Jesus says If ye love me, keep my commandments.
(Not 4 Gods love) because of our love for him.; Jesus. says keep my commandments.
Ponder the spiritual implications of Gods moral law. The guard rail on life's highway.
For harmony and continuity in community. We've got work to do!
Thank you, Dr. Flowers 🙏🙏🙏✝️✝️✝️
Well Done Leighton Flowers. Thank You.
@chuckbenson7614,
Is draws mean an invitation? I am not good in greek, but I think it would be sensible to say brings. As: No one can come to me unless the Father brings him to me?
I really appreciate this format of video. Please continue doing these
Yes I totally agree
I totally agree
As a supporter, I think more people should be supporting this channel cause calvinism is like a plague of the mind,and I'm glad flowers is exposing them.
I’m sorry my friend but Calvinism is
Not a plague, but is actually extraordinarily beautiful. You are missing it. In Ephesians 2:8-9 the Bible says this. “ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.“
Therefore, if we chose God, we would have a reason to boast, because it was our decision and good work. But this is not what this passage teaches. it says salvation is a gift from God so that no man can boast. Therefore God chooses us, not the other way around.
What makes this so beautiful is the fact that we are wretched sinners, deserving of Gods wrath, but God with his amazing mercy love and grace chose us to know him and receive salvation. You had a death sentence which you deserved, and Christ paid your fine soley because he showed you love and mercy. Not because you earned it or deserved it. This is why Calvinism is beautiful, and it makes the gospel even sweeter.
Further, we see all through scripture that God definitely chooses people over and over. Romans 9, God chooses Jacob and not Esau while they were still in their mothers womb, before they did anything god or evil, so that Gods purpose of election would continue. Clearly God elects here.
God chose the nation of Israel.
All throughout the New Testament Paul refers to Christ followers as, Gods Chosen, God’s elect, those who God predestined before the foundations of the earth were laid. It’s quite clear and undeniable from scripture that God chooses, elects and predestines. Literally in every book written by Paul and others this is mentioned.
Finally, in the book of revelations 13:8, when speaking about the Anti Christ, it says “ And all will follow after the beast, all except those whose names were written in the book of life, before the foundations of the earth were laid”.
It’s undeniable that God predestines, chooses and elects people, and he did it before he even created the earth. God is all knowing, and all powerful so he certainly knows who is going to follow him and who is not. Read all of Roman’s 9 for the most obvious explanation of this. If God decided to make one person for Glory and another to reveal his wraith and power than he is fully within his own right to do it and who are we to question him? God gave us life, he shows mercy to some and others he does not. He’s not evil for doing this because we have all sinned, and are law breakers deserving of judgement. When you realize this, it makes you love Christ even more.
Either way, it doesn’t really matter that much, but I would be cautious calling a doctrine a plague especially when there are extremely strong arguments in scripture to support it.
Calvinism borders on heresy as it DENIES the gospel as stated by Jesus@@theothersideofthestory1594
@carlosfonseca7906,
It is not only Calvinism that is against the doctrine of dr. Leighton Flowers.
Dr. Flowers does not believe the biblical doctrine of election and predestination for salvation.
Jesus Hinself revealed that it is biblical.
Please read the parable of wheat and tares in matthew 13:24-43...
@theothersideofthestory1594 what is so beautiful about an unbiblical doctrine of a God condemning man to hell for things He predestined them to do.
That is contrary to the God of the bible.
I guess I was predestined to think this way. 🫠
If you want to bash a doctrine, you should make sure that you understand it first, otherwise, there’s not much point and having a conversation with you. How can you make a decision without hearing or knowing what arguments the opposing person brings forward.
Calvinism does not teach God predestining people to hell, it teaches predestining people to heaven.
All humans have sinned, broken Gods law and are deserving judgement and hell. Every single one. No one is righteous. God however chose to show mercy and compassion to some because of his great mercy, love and grace. Therefore, he didn’t predestine anyone to hell, they were already going, since Adam and Eve sinned and all humans have been stained by sin since that time. So again, all humans were already destined to go to hell because humans rebelled against God at the time of Adam and Eve. Humans made this choice, not God.
The reason people get angry about Calvanism is because of pride. They think they are worthy of heaven, Gods love and mercy, but the truth is that they are not. They are deserving of Gods righteous judgement. Again, this is why it says in Romans 9, I will show mercy and compassion on whom I choose (this is God speaking in this passage). And yes, the fact that I did nothing to deserve salvation, or deserve Gods love and mercy, but God gave it to me anyway, is beautiful and amazing. God drew me to him and gave me understanding of his gospel just as it says in John 6:44.
No need to "decalvinize" something that was never calvinistic to begin with.
@@vitaignis5594 Reformation theology is Biblical theology.
@@ericbarnett3529You sound trained.
@@ericbarnett3529 No, in most cases it’s pagan philosophy.
@ericbarnett3529 reformed theology seems to reform the love of God based on a love that comes from one that masquerades as an angel of light that desires the majority of people to be destined to walk the wide path to destruction and be totally unable to accept the good news of God cuz they were purposed for hellbound destruction even before God started creation....explain how in the Genesis account that God (knowing ALL things) said after He made mankind calling it "very good"...meanwhile behind His thoughts are I created a completely incapable creation that I will hold accountable for things they aren't able to even understand...
Calvinism makes God even more chaotic than Peter when He went from being revealed by God Who Jesus is to being called satan by Jesus for not having his mindset right...yet even after denying Jesus ....After being raised from the dead...Peter was brought back..not by force...
Calvinism Predetermined Puppeteering Controlling Tyrant model draws a line in the sand creating the God favoring a lottery of folks that were "set apart" while the same God took the sin of the world upon Himself will forcefully not let people be reconciled "for His glory"
I reject this as an "option" that rightly characterized the love of God for His people....this is a different gospel. "election" vs be born again.
Jesus said that. Man must be born again. ..don't you think if the key was to be chose before creation Jesus would just tell his predetermined followers to seek only the individuals that are written in the book of life and the rest can just pound sand?
You are right, it was never intended as Calvinists interpret it, so "de-Calvinizing" a verse is just correcting a poor interpretation.
When I read John 6, I completely understood “No one comes to me unless the Father draws Him”. The drawing is the invitation, and indeed the Father has granted every one of us that invitation -as long as we hear the Father’s teachings and believe
You come to the Son of the Father draw.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me,
except it were given unto him of my Father.
Some important passages touched on here. And I am thankful for the emphasis on Christ and everyone's need to come to him.
1. Luke 10:16 has Jesus saying those who reject Him reject the Father. So, there is good reason to believe that the manner in which people learn from the Father is through Jesus' teaching.
2. Jesus equates coming to him to believing in him in John 6:35-36.
3. Jesus speaks to the necessity of the Father's drawing for someone to come to Him in response to those who do not believe and are grumbling (6:41-43). This would not make sense if the Father is drawing everyone, nor does libertarian free will obtain if there is a moral inability to come to Christ.
4. Jesus also speaks to the necessity of the Father granting it to come to Jesus in 6:63-66 in response to unbelief. The implications are the same as 3 above. If God is drawing everyone, a response from Jesus akin to 'Heed the Father's drawing/teaching' would have been apropos given their unbelief. But Jesus explains what the Father must do, not what they must do to believe. If the Father was already drawing them, Jesus' words would not be relevant.
5. The Father must draw and grant in order for anyone to believe in Jesus, owing to 2 through 4 above.
6. The Father draws to Christ and grants it to those he draws to come to Christ through the Son's words owing to 1 above.
7. Those He draws inevitably come to Christ (believe in Him) as in John 6:37. They are also inevitably raised up as in 6:44.
8. Since the drawing leads to being raised on the last day, the way the Father draws (via teaching and effecting learning in 6:45) cannot be some mere coaxing.
It’s clear that Dr. Flowers is not a tulip.
@@tomgregory687 He is a different kind of flower. 😁
@@tomgregory687 May as well be a J W or Mormon if you're going to twist Scripture.
@@ericbarnett3529 Nobody taught calvinism before 1500'....
@Yaas_ok123 no, because everyone was of the Roman cult. Read your history books.
@@ericbarnett3529 No one twists scripture like OSAS evangelicals. If a Mormon or a JW agrees with me on anything, at least they got something right.
Thank you Leighton you explain it very well very clearly. God bless from Ralph and Sheila in Southampton uk
@ralphfeay8857,
Is draws mean an invitation? I am not good in greek, but I think it would be sensible to say brings. As: No one can come to me unless the Father brings him to me?
One of the best teachings I’ve heard on this. Thank you, Dr. Flowers.
All men will come to Jesus - during judgment
Excellent clarification on this one, Leighton.
Sometimes you speak so fast, it's difficult to keep it straight between the 'wrong' Calvinistic misinterpretation you are trying to get us to recognize as compared to how it should be properly understood when interpreted how God & Jesus intended through the Word.
Thank you for slowing down, carefully took things 1 step at a time & made it clear.
God bless this Ministry - so many of us out here really need this.
@@sydney.g.sloangammagee8181 If you watch on you tube TV you can slow it down.
Your background music is great. Sidenote: Your biblical understanding is very helpful too,
Very good brother Leighton. GOD bless
@CecilSpurlockJr,
Is draws mean an invitation? I am not good in greek, but I think it would be sensible to say brings. As: No one can come to me unless the Father brings him to me?
@Echarterisc helco can mean to drag or to draw trough inviting actions n speech .
@@CecilSpurlockJr.,
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
verb
drive, force, or urge (someone) to do something.
"financial difficulties impelled him to desperate measures"
Note: it does no say anything here about invitation. I believe the Oxford dictionary nore than you..
@@CecilSpurlockJr.,
Helkuo
hel-koo'-o
Parts of SpeechVerb
Helkuo Definition
to draw, drag off
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
@Echarterisc to urge one to come is certainly a type of invitation whether you realize this or not my friend. And how do we urge one to come ? By inviting speech or actions, so just stop this carrying on about the term hello, because it's a very small part of a much larger narrative that's revealed throughout scripture
Another amazing job, Leighton. I think any Calvinist watching this with an open heart and mind would take serious pause.
Perhaps a Calvinist might ask why the first part of the verse was not addressed, 'No one is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me does [something].' It would seem to me that the ability to come to Jesus is not in the one who comes but in the Father who enables a person to come.
How many Calvinists have you met? It's very rare to meet one with an open mind or one who is willing to pause and consider anything contrary to what they believe. 99% of them think they have God all figured out.
@@pfreemantz Hi. Thank you for your response. My interest is in what the text of God's word might mean. As I said, it seems to me that our Lord Jesus in John 6:44 says directly and positively that no one is able to come to him except that the Father draws him, that is, no one is able with out the direct and powerful work of God the Father. BTW, I have met several people who might be called Calvinists, and none of them would dare to claim to have God all figured out. They would say that the secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and our children forever (Deut. 29:29). So may we please deal with the text?
@blackukulele it's obvious that you didn't listen to what was actually said .
@@pfreemantzabsolutely 💯 correct, as they also describe YHWH as a Muslim describes their allah
Stop using background music!!!
RC Sproul says the word draw means to drag not to woo.
Correct ,the Greek word that is used means to ( drag) .
It's really irrelevant isn't it?
Because to whom is He talking to?
Unbelieving Jews.
To whom is He referring?
The 12, because they're all that is left afterward.
John even says so when Jesus is arrested, saying, "this was to fulfill when He said, "of all that the Father gives Me I will lose none", in Chapter 6.
So arguing what the definition is "in the Greek" is irrelevant, to what Calvinists are arguing here.
They need to somehow make it fit their Platonistic metaphysics.
They're desperate for proof texts.
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi it’s not irrelevant, the text answers it, no one CAN come to me UNLESS the Father who sent me DRAWS (drags) him.
The Bible says that God draws all people to Himself. The Bible says that not everyone is saved. It seems to me that the Bible makes it perfectly clear that "drawing" doesn't mean "effectually causing someone to believe." You've had the Greek pulled over your eyes.
@@LawlessNate correct God is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of my faith , not me.
Excellent, thank you for this! God bless!
As long as we understand, God draws all men, John six isn’t that hard to figure out
Exactly! Nothing in that verse says only certain ones are allowed
@@chooseChrist-e2t it’s a silly reading comprehension error. Spawned a whole school of theology off simple reading comprehension errors. Terrible.
@@TheRomans9Guy
You really think the Reformers had poor reading comprehension?
@@chooseChrist-e2t
How about John 6:37: "All that the Father gives me will come to me."
Does God give "all men" to Christ? If so, how come they don't come to Him?
@@TimWismer Very, very clearly, yes. Embarrassingly so. Inexcusably so.
Wouldn't make sense to tell us to choose God if we can't.
Jesus lives! ♥️ and is Yahweh God 🙏🏻 Christ ✝️ and King 👑
The Bible doesn't really tell you to choose. It tells you to believe, which is not a choice. Evangelists often tell you to choose because it is something you are capable of doing. Or they tell you to "make a decision" for Christ for the same reason. God says you must have faith, which is a gift from God that you can't give yourself (see Heb 12:2; Phil 1:29; Eph 2:8-9; Rom 4, etc.).
@@TimWismer it does tell you to choose. Silly claim to make.
Do address Free Grace theology ! Thank you for your work ! Got all your books in Finland 😁👍
GOODNESS so confused concerning "repeat after me and you will be saved"!
@@bobwood5146 5 minutes in faith, then denying whole thing....saved forever ? Not buying that stuff !
@@Yaas_ok123 “that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.”
Philippians 3:10-12 KJV
Paul said that he had not yet attained unto the resurrection and the perfection of immortality but was pressing toward it. How can anyone believe that they are already, unstoppably predestined for something that the apostle said must be attained? Paul said: “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the END everlasting life.”
Romans 6:22 KJV Jesus frees us from sin, (Romans 6:3-7) and we then bear the fruit of holiness, (Without which no one will see the LORD, Hebrews 12:14) and after living a life of holiness we receive everlasting life. That’s how grace works. (Hebrews 12:28-29)
@@Yaas_ok123 Why did you delete my reply?
@@tomgregory687 Sorry, my slip 😁
With or without Joh 6:44, you still have to make a choice., Josh 24:15, choose this day whom you will serve.....also we can resist God's drawing.....Act_7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye.
The Holy Spirit has been poured out on all flesh and wants everyone saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Please quote the verse where the bible says the Holy Spirit dwells in all people.
This is one of your best videos yet. It's so perfectly clear. Has James White seen this? If he did I don't see how he can deny something as plain as this.
No one CAN come unless the Father draws them. In other words, if the Father draws them, then they CAN come. They have the choice. Those who end up coming to Him, He will raise up on the last day.
It doesn’t say “no one irresistibly comes”. You have to add that as a presupposition on the text to get Piper’s conclusion.
Amen!
I just love how 6:37-43 isn't even brought up here. Seems very intellectually honest!
Elkuse/draw is used in the subjunctive mood which means the phones ringing its up to each individual to answer it. Abarim greek application. Please put abarim on your device. Everyone's phone is ringing answering it is the key
That word is used 6 other times besides the 2 verses he showed. If you really studied the Greek word ελκο, you would know that when used the 6 other times it’s used to mean dragging with force, applying force unto a resisting person or object.
No man can choose God. No man has the ability to seek Him. Only God can give broken sinners a heart for Jesus.
@jaypreddy8185,
Is draws mean an invitation? I am not good in greek, but I think it would be sensible to say brings. As: No one can come to me unless the Father brings him to me?
@@jaypreddy8185 do you mean irresistible grace?
If by your statement you mean irresistible grace then your interpretation goes against the natural exegetical truths of John 6.
Man is made to seek and does seek God, Acts 17:26-27. Man was seeking God and this was what Paul was addressing in Acts 17.
@@DRMLiveJazz, Both of you are wrong. Man indeed seek God but there are reprobates that do not seek God because they are children of the devil.
Read the parable of wheat and tares in matthew 13:24-43, Be sure to read until verse 43. because Jesus explained the parable from verse 37 to verse 43.
Example of the reprobates can be found in John 8:44 where Jesus said to them:
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
This has been my understanding of Matthew 22 at all times. The israelites were called 3 times but didn’t come, then random people came (that’s us) and they were allowed at the feast and all others were not.
God will turn one over. But He doesn't push anyone away
Exactly
In John 6:44 draws is in the subjective hoping that you're drawn. Knock in rev.3 is imperative meaning you better open the door
So then all men are subjectively hoping that they're drawn? I can guarantee you that there are plenty of people who openly reject God that are genuinely not hoping to be 'drawn' by God. That reasoning of yours fails to conform with the scripture Leighton mentioned in this video.
@@LawlessNate and their view means God fails to save those who he cannot save. By their view Gods desire to save is not as powerful as mans desire to not be saved.
@@h2s-i9o They don't think that. Instead, they're forced to try and reinterpret the many verses which say that God desires that none should perish, IE that all should be saved, to somehow not mean that.
The better argument is "No one CAN come" (Calvinism) vs. "No one comes" (Bible). I'm fine with the Calvinist "drag" but this does not mean that one reconciles to Christ just because they are dragged to Him. They are dragged to His feet so as to not be able to ignore Him. They are forced to make a decision about Jesus, but their decision is not forced.
My reading of the Greek text of 6:44 is a follows: Noone (oudeis) is able (dunatai) to come (elthein) to me (pros me) unless (ean mee) the Father (ho pateer) who sent me (ho pemspas me) draws him (helkusee auton). Ability (particularly the lack of ability) is stated in both 6:44 and 6:65. I hope this helps
Through the preaching of the gospel the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. Through provenience grace we are able to respond to God. Otherwise we are dead in our trespasses and sins. Jesus promised that when he went away he would send another comforter.
I like this type of videos.
Great video!
Genuine question: the word for draw in the Interlinear is helkō which has a lot of confusing definitions:
Strong’s Definitions
†ἑλκύω helkýō, hel-koo'-o; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):-draw. Compare G1667.
Or
to draw, drag off
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel.
So how should we read it? If God is dragging people to Jesus, that would mean a compulsion right?
The proposition that the Greek word for "draw" has little bearing on the argument.
It's not so much what it means, but to >WHOM< it is referring.
It's a bait and switch, a fallacy.
They want you arguing about it, AS IF Irresistible Grace is a foregone conclusion.
It's like if I sent out RSVP invites to my party, and someone shows up that wasn't invited.
When asked about it, the unwelcome guest argues the definition of the "Response" in RSVP, instead of giving an account of himself as to why he's there.
The word describing this tactic as "D-U-M-B"😅
To whom is Jesus referring?
THAT is the question.
In john 6
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me ->I should lose nothing
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi can you resist Gods grace?
@@h2s-i9o certainly. See Hosea 11:2 and Acts 7:51 for examples of resistance.
Hosea 11:2 "But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me." We see here an example of resistible calling, not forceful calling.
Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you." We see here an example of people resisting the work, the call, the draw, the power of the Holy Spirit-He does not force them. This implies they have the ability to do so.
John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." We see here an example of resistible drawing, not forceful drawing. Otherwise, Jesus implies universalism. We know from Scripture that universalism is false; therefore, irresistible grace is false.
Its not that hard to unterstand...
He doesn’t understand.
And yet there are still people who think these passages somehow teach Calvinism.
Can you tell us what is the greek word for Draw in John 6:44?
Fantastic Dr. Flowers... In the OT hélkein denotes a powerful impulse, as in Cant. 1:4, which is obscure but expresses the force of love. This is the point in the two important passages in Jn. 6:44; 12:32. There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic.
(Cite: Kittel, Gerhard, Gerhard Friedrich, and Geoffrey William Bromiley. 1985. In Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, 227. Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans.)
Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed".
There is no higher self worship than calvinism
I think the context of this is taken by Piper in light of Romans 8:30. It is an unbreakable chain of salvation that only the foreknown are predestined, called, justified, glorified.
So there is a element of truth that only those who are enabled, drawn, or called by God will come to him
You changed the definition of the word, though.
Hey Leighton, I have had some calvinists give me John 3:8 as a verse to say that the Spirit decides who He saves. Can you please explain?
Sounds like some don’t listen to God calling them and kinda shoots the deathbed confession in the foot…
Proverbs 1:23 Repent at my rebuke!
Then I will pour out my thoughts to you,
I will make known to you my teachings.
24 But since you refuse to listen when I call
and no one pays attention when I stretch out my hand,
25 since you disregard all my advice
and do not accept my rebuke,
26 I in turn will laugh when disaster strikes you;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you-
27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
28 “Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me,
29 since they hated knowledge
and did not choose to fear the Lord.
30 Since they would not accept my advice
and spurned my rebuke,
31 they will eat the fruit of their ways
and be filled with the fruit of their schemes.
32 For the waywardness of the simple will kill them,
and the complacency of fools will destroy them;
33 but whoever listens to me will live in safety
and be at ease, without fear of harm.”
Did the sign on the cross have their name on it?
Is draws mean an invitation? I am not good in greek, but I think it would be sensible to say brings. As: No one can come to me unless the Father brings him to me?
Differentiate between jn6:44 and Luke 10:22
This is great
Jesus later says in John 12:32 he will draw all men to him when he is lifted up, talking about the cross.
John12:32 then becomes "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will ENABLE all men to Myself." ???
Men is not in the greek text
@@JESUS_Saves3747 your point?
@@arogue469 Selected men not all.
@@JESUS_Saves3747that doesn’t prove your point. Is “all” in the text? As in, 'pas'?
If I be lifted up I will draw (drag as in a fishing net , in the Greek) all men to me. That is very clear to me. But that’s because I believe God when He said that it is Gods will that none parish but for all to have life. No two wills of God .
If you think Flower is an idiot try reading AW Tozer, CS Lewis, John Lennox or any of the other great theologians who disagree with Calvinism. This has been a great controversy ever since Calvin wrote out his theological understanding during the reformation. Before that no one taught Calvinism.
I don’t understand why people don’t interpret “come” as meaning going to where Jesus will be when He returns? Jesus even says, “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:54) Those with eternal life will be raised up to Him. Where will Jesus be? “What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?” (John 6:62) He will be in the air, which is consistent with Scripture and to get there believers will have to be drawn up to Him. Not by their own strength, but by God’s. Jesus clearly mentions that there are some there who didn’t believe and that is why they can not come to Him.
🙏❤
Grace is more than pleas,
Not earned by broken knees,
The heart reclaims what love can frame,
And faith sets us free.
Yet free will is stirred,
By choices we preferred,
No fire burns that’s not returned,
Love leads us in the Word.
@binoygarbi8744,
Is draws mean an invitation? I am not good in greek, but I think it would be sensible to say brings. As: No one can come to me unless the Father brings him to me?
John 6:37,39,65 KJVS
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. [39] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [65] And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
He's talking about the 12
John 18
7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: 9 >>That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, "Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none"
I can't find a definition for the Greek word for "draw", helko, to mean "enable", it seems to mean "draw", lol. Although I am not sure that it really matters. Does anyone see a better translation for this Greek word? Maybe I am missing it.
Tutus 2:11
So, in John 21:11 when Peter drags (same Greek word that our Lord Jesus used in 6:44) the net full of fish to shore, he was only giving the fish the opportunity to come, which those who came did so by their own free will?
Words usually don't have one set definition or meaning in any language.
@@LawlessNate
Exactly. which is why Leighton needs to justify defining "draw" in a way that fits with one particular passage, rather than the dominant usage in every other passage which uses that Greek term.
@@TimWismer Something you're not considering is the word "draw" in English. If the verse really means "compel" then why do essentially no English translations translate the verse to say "compel"? Why, instead, does pretty much every English translation instead choose to use the English word "draw"?
Realize that in English, outside of Calvinists reading the Bible, no one uses the word "draw" to mean "compel". If I'm drawn to an apple pie that doesn't mean the apple pie controlled my will to force to me to eat it; no one uses the word "draw" that way in every day life.
Seriously ask yourself the following question: why are you so convinced that the word being translated as "draw" in pretty much every English translation really means "compel"? Are you a scholar of ancient Greek? If you don't happen to be one then why are you so certain the verse should more accurately be translated as "compel"? Is it because Calvinists teaches have told you to believe it should? Why do essentially 0 scholars of ancient Greek that are involved with the major English translations of the Bible, many of whom I'd like to remind you are Calvinists themselves, translate the verse to say "compel"?
Quite frankly, I don't think you have any rational basis to think that the verse in Greek means "compel" in English. You'd essentially have to posit some grand, anti-Calvinistic conspiracy among the many, many scholars of ancient Greek involved in making the English translations of the Bible.
It seems all uses of this Greek word for "draw" are monergistic as far as I can find. I think the equivocation in John 12:32 should be with regard to the meaning of "all" (pantas) and not "draw." The uses for draw are mostly translated either "drag" (Acts 21:30, Acts 16:19) or as one draws a net (John 18:10, 21:11). In none of the other uses of draw that I can find, does the object being drawn have any say in its effectiveness.
You've had the Greek pulled over your eyes. Nothing about reading a passage in Greek is going to make a verse mean the opposite of what it says in English. The Bible says that God draws everyone to Himself. It also says that not everyone will be saved. Nothing about Greek is going to change those facts.
@@LawlessNate If the Greek "draw" means to forcefully drag without consideration of the object being drawn, and if "all" in the Greek doesn't always mean "every human ever" then the difference could be significant. Do you think "no one seeks God" means that no one seeks God or would you qualify it?
@@jeremywolffbrandt7488 But "draw" doesn't only mean that. Yes, it is always "monergistic" (that word is not biblical, though "synergism" is), but the argument is not that people draw themselves to Christ or that something else draws them to Christ. The argument is rather that people can and do resist God's monergistic drawing.
Greek has other words for "compel," "impel," or "force," which are used elsewhere in the NT.
- Matt. 5:41
- Matt. 14:22
- Matt. 27:32
- Mark 6:45
- Mark 15:21
- Luke 14:23
- Luke 16:16
- John 6:15
- Acts 5:26
- Acts 7:19
- Acts 23:10
- Acts 26:11
- Acts 28:19
- 2 Cor. 12:11
- Gal. 2:3
- Gal. 2:14
- Gal. 6:12
If John had meant to evoke "compel" or "force," he would have used one of those words-just like he did in that very chapter, John 6, in verse 15.
This does not mean people are stronger than God. It does not mean God has failed in some way. It means they have an ability and responsibility to respond to God's drawing through the Gospel, which is the power of God to salvation for ALL who believe (Romans 1:16). God did all the work we cannot do, and the work of God is to believe in the one whom He has sent (John 6:29). This belief is not itself a work of the Law (Romans 4:5) and does not contribute anything to God's work of our salvation. But it is what God sovereignly decided is the means by which He saves a person.
John 12:32 - What other uses for the Greek "pas" do you see? There are more than 1,200 in the NT! All of them have qualifiers, even visible in English. Yes, sometimes, "pas" does not mean "every person ever," but that is always clear in the text. If Christ had meant "some from all men" or "all types of men," then that would be visible in the text (as we see in Matthew 4:23 and 5:11, for example, where Jesus says "all kinds of [something]"). Here, though, He just says, "all men."
Romans 3:11 - If you read not only the rest of Romans 3, but also the psalm Paul quotes here, you would see that "no one" is indeed qualified to be a subset of people. This set of verses quotes Psalm 14 and 53, which refer to the fool who continuously says "no" to God. Paul applied it to the Jews who are trying to be justified by the Law and works and will not turn to God in BELIEF (just like the Jews in John 6). It refers to the ones in chapter 1 who continuously suppress the truth in unrighteousness. It does not refer to all of mankind. Scripture is clear that man can and does seek after God and finds Him when he does so (Deuteronomy 4:29, 1 Chronicles 22:19, 1 Chronicles 28:9, Psalm 27:8, Psalm 107:10-16, Jeremiah 29:13, Acts 17:27).
@@nathanf9582 I appreciate your style of engagement! That said, I think you are incorrect in your assessment. You are approaching the greek from the perspective of the (more ambiguous) english word that it is translated into. That is backwards from the way exegesis should work. If the original greek word (helkyse and its derivatives) is always translated as "drag" or a similar word describing an object being pulled without consideration for the feeling of the thing/person being pulled, then that should be the way we understand it. The other examples of the word include drawing in a net and drawing a sword from a sheath and universally are effective (there is no usage of the word in which the drawing does not result in moving the object (as would be the case if it were just to influence or encourage the object being drawn)
There are other greek words for compelling or drawing in other contexts. You cite many other examples of greek words that refer to forceful compelling besides helkyse however you don't mention that there are many non-forceful words for drawing that Paul could have used if he saw fit. You said, "If John had meant to evoke "compel" or "force," he would have used one of those words-just like he did in that very chapter, John 6, in verse 15." He could have, but the word he used was otherwise used to describe how a net/sword is drawn or the way someone was dragged when arrested, that is, forcefully and effectively without consideration of the feelings of the object.
With regard to the meaning of "pantas" in 12:32 it does not actually say "all men" in the greek. It says, "all will draw to myself". Most english translations add the "men" even though it isn't there in the greek. Just as its logical to insert men, it is logical to conclude that he doesn't mean every human if we take helkyse to mean the same thing it does in every other passage, that is, to drag effectively and completely or we would have to be universalists.
In the Romans 3 reference, Paul is clearly addressing primarily gentiles as is indicated in chapter 1:5-6,13-14, 11:13. The passages from Psalm include the mention of a fool who says there is no God but it is a song. There is no indication from the text that the following lines are limited in scope to that fool. Additionally Paul's use of it is expressly unqualified. He describes how Jews and gentiles are equally condemned under the law and supports that statement with the OT references clearly NOT speaking exclusively of OT Jews who did not believe there is a God. He expounds on that saying, "every mouth" will be silenced and the, "whole world will be held accountable to God" and, "no one will be declared righteous in God's sight". These are all universal statements without qualification. The addition at the end is that Christ righteousness is applied to those who believe and that it is His righteousness applied to us. The clear statement is that because none seek him and none do right, his righteousness is what saves us. Romans 3:24 says "all are justified by his grace" another example of a situation where "all" clearly doesn't mean every person (universalism) because it just said in the previous verse that Christ righteousness is only given to those who believe.
Again, I appreciate your direct/biblically based response and the way you stick to arguments from scripture. I think its great when Christians can vigorously disagree/study closely the meaning of passages in love and respect.
@@jeremywolffbrandt7488 I’ve seen you in the comment section on several of Leighton’s videos, and I too appreciate your gracious attitude. You represent the Calvinist view kindly.
I’ll stick with John 6:44 for now, but we can move to John 12:32 and Romans 3 afterward if you’d like.
Humbly, I think your approach to exegesis doesn’t take the full text and intent into account. We can quibble over particular words and their usages all day, but the beauty of the text in any language is that its meaning becomes clear through context. I don’t read Greek, but fortunately, we may understand God’s truth without knowing the original language thanks to faithful translations. To do so, we must examine the full context instead of individual words. When approaching John 6:44 stripped of its context and with the presupposition of total inability due to total depravity, the Calvinist interpretation makes sense because Calvinism is internally coherent.
However, one should not use that single verse as a lens to view the rest of Scripture but vice versa. If the call of the Gospel is, “Believe!” that implies that those who hear have the ability to do so-God is not deceptive. John wrote, “These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” (John 20:31). He wrote this book with the express purpose to convince the reader, whomever he is, to believe in Jesus and then have life in His name. If John knew only a few arbitrary elect could read it, be forcibly regenerated, and then believe because they were decreed to do so, he would’ve written this sentence and his entire book quite differently.
What other “non-forceful” words might John have used? Can you tell me a word in Greek which “considers the feelings of the thing/person being pulled”? Does it matter, when the context plainly shows that God draws and people respond positively or negatively?
To speak about ἑλκύω however: Thayer’s Greek lexicon gives two possible ways of understanding ἑλκύω-“properly” and “metaphorically.” I don’t know Greek, but I trust this to be true, which is why I said in the first place that there is not only one way to understand the term. If there is not one way to understand the term but two, then while your interpretation may be the correct one, the other interpretation may be correct instead-biblically, logically, and contextually-regardless of the typical usage of ἑλκύω.
Consider “lure” in James 1:14, which has the same root as the word “draw” in John 6:44. “Each person is tempted when he is lured [ἐξέλκω] and enticed by his own desire.” Yet two verses earlier, James blesses the one who resists this temptation! If we are “forcibly dragged” into temptation, yet it is possible to resist according to James 1:12, why wouldn’t we be able to resist the “lure” of God in John 6:44 and 12:32?
Or consider John 21:6 “He said to them, ‘Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.’ So they cast it, and now they were *not able to haul [ἑλκύω] it in,* because of the quantity of fish.” - They were not able to draw the net out of the water due to the number of fish-they drew (ἑλκύω), and their drawing was completely resisted!
Even Martin Luther said, “The drawing is not like that of the executioner, who draws the thief up the ladder to the gallows; but it is a gracious allurement, such as that of the man whom everybody loves, and to whom everybody willingly goes.”
Thus I assert the Provisionist interpretation is reasonable, contextually sound, and biblical.
😮
Calvinist: All/world really means ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE. If it does not fit, just invent new ANCIENT Greek.
Jeremiah 31:1-3. Who dies God draw to Himself? All the families of Isreal
Mr. Leighton, in trying to explain John 6:44, you keep jumping to different passages to prove your point without even appealing to its immediate context, especially the next verse. The word "draw" in John 12:32 may be the same Greek word in John 6:44, but the context is altogether different. Moreover, the Greek word 'helkō" cannot mean "enable," but (translated as "draw") to "drag" or "pull" with force. For example, in John 21:6, the disciples "drew" a net full of fish-the word "helkō" (draw) here in this context, and its original definition taken into account, cannot mean that the disciples "invited" or "enabled" the fish into the boat-like your take for the word "helkō".
Enough Flower
Knows that God draws you first...
Or else you need to pray Thank God I draw myself to You
God draws but he does NOT force.
@@MB777-qr2xv He is so powerful That he subdued the sinner will and made the sinner willing in his own decisions to come to Him.....All those whom The Father draw will come come to him....do you see anything that day He draw and don't force ....Read atleast Koran brother you will continue to speak like this😀
@@MB777-qr2xv
The Greek for "draw" (Strong's G1670) can in fact mean to draw forcibly. But note that most Calvinists don't argue so much that God "forces" people against their will, but that He changes their will by giving them "eyes to see" and "ears to hear", and by taking away their hearts of stone, which are hardened against the truth, and replacing them with hearts of flesh which are open to the truth.
Proverbs 20:12: "The hearing ear and the seeing eye -- Jehovah has made them both."
Ezekiel 36:26: "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh."
Moreover, does the conversion of Saul to Paul appear voluntary? Even if you say that is a special case and not typical of Christian conversion (which of course is true), it still begs the question, Is God willing to violate man's "free will"?
But verse 45 follows verse 44! Yes, and the New Testament follows the Old Testament. To claim that you can’t use v45 to help interpret v44 is akin to saying you cannot see Jesus in the Old Testament.
When is "the last day"? One has to rightly divide (2 Tim 2:15) to answer this-
Defined at Neh 8:18. But only used again at John 6. Jewish context dealing with resurrection for great white throne judgement- not judgement seat of Christ per Rom 14:10. & 2 Cor 5:10. verifying that John ch6 not specific to the Body of Christ. No jew not greek
Do Calvinists own and ever read a dictionary.
Do they not notice the contradiction of written scripture with the sermons they hear?
When humans seek truth rather than tribal inclusion and loyalty, humanity will benefit.....Christian and non Christian.
Allowing our tribes to influence the way we read Scripture is a very real danger. We all do it to some degree, whether Calvinist or Arminian, etc. But since you mention reading a dictionary I have a question for you:
What do you think "predestined" means? Me, I tend to think that "pre" means before, or ahead of time, and that "destiny" is a fate, or result, that cannot be avoided regardless of our intent. Would you agree, or do you have a different definition?
@@TimWismer I agree with the definition.
Disagree with the "what, where, and when," of other Christians application of predestination.
@@TimWismerYour definition is ok as far as I can tell. The issue is with how you read a verse like Eph 1:4 as “chosen and predestined TO BO in Christ “, whereas the text actually only says you are chosen and predestined “in Him”. Major difference. Notice Eph 1 uses “in Him”, “ in Christ “ or “through Christ “ a total of 11 times. So the author is clearly communicating something you need to observe closer.
You were never chosen and predestined while you were “outside of Christ”, v13 of Eph 1 tells you when you joined this chosen and predestined group:
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit”
Never isolate a text out of context or add words to it that aren’t there
Gentiles do not know God the Father but yet some come to the Son: Jews know God the Father but yet some come to the Son.
Are you sure Jn 12:32 is for this timeline or that timeline - "...will draw all men to Myself".
Was Jesus lifted up?
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi - Are you not aware the situations of street preachers of the past and present? Are you not aware one could face arrest for possession of a bible? Etc.
The Holy Spirit has lead me to tell you this. Everything has to be taken in context. In isaiah it's prophesied that a virgin will have a child. But the word for virgin and young woman are the same. As j.vernon mcgee said to prophesie that a young woman would have a child aint much of a prophecy. So it's virgin
I would honestly take these videos more seriously if he didn’t do petty emotional appeals and say stuff like it’s contrasted with Calvinism that literally fit their worldview also.
Who among you with your corrupted free will can choose to draw near to the Lord Jesus...?
...Or, how many of you can choose to respond to His call?
Even if for an instant you believe you can, how then can you sustain your free will choice to respond when your free will is corrupted?
This demonstrates one of the fundamental problems with Calvinism.
You're arguing for me to choose determinism.
Something that according to you I am absolutely unable to do.
Further, you don't really believe determinism either, because your comment presupposes your true belief that I can freely choose your determinism, which according to determinism I am totally unable to do.
Yet your comment...
Can you see therefore this is reasoning in a circle.
So I my counter argument:
Since you only assent to determinism, but do not REALLY believe it, as I've shown, you can therefore choose to abandoned it and live life as you've already been living (because you really don't believe in determinism after all - you just SAY that you do). All you would have to do is stop saying you believe it.
I know that you probably have Church, family and friends who will tell you that you are wrong, crazy, or that it proves you were a reprobate all along.
But I'd rather stand before Him on judgment day with a clean conscience, than to have to answer for remaining locked in a System, lying to everyone for the rest of my life.
It's your choice of course.
So it's either come clean with everyone in your life, or lie and pretend you're one of them for the rest of your life.
I know which one I'd choose
Those that, at the hearing of the gospel, and the humbling and contrition it brings to some as their conscience bears witness to their sin, come to the light by placing their simple faith in the message they have heard.
Rom 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Listen folks, it is arrogant, proud, and just incorrect to believe that you did something or that you are something to be able to make good decisions. You CANNOT make yourself be the kind of person that makes good decisions. You can’t make yourself be the kind of person that prays for God to give you the ability to make good decisions. God sent Samuel and he called for all of Jesse’s boys but only David was chosen. David did not make himself the chosen. God created him chosen. I am a predestined child of God! All children will return to the Father. I came to this truth by the Holy Spirit. I had never heard of calvinism and still don’t care about calvinism. I am simply a Christ abiding, Holy Spirit lead child of God. We are predestined whether you believe it or not. ✌️
I strongly suggest you stop trying to figure out the Bible and SEEK GOD’S FACE. Knowing Him is all that matters.
Your claim is self refuting, given that you say you cannot make good choices.
The rest of your comment is just virtue signaling and posturing.
Sorry, but dems da faks
It is because of flowers here that gives reason to Kenneth Copeland to say that “God is the biggest failure in the Bible…” I mean he’s able to draw some and not others because they just didn’t listen good enough…the ones who did pay attention can boast in themselves that they had enough sense to learn while others didn’t… no need to boast in the Lord see it was my good ole sense that earned grace, not Gods infinite wisdom in saving an unworthy wretch no I’m worthy by gosh because I listened and I learned…sounds like the fools in Matt 7 to me
My friend , going that way ,you clash with Romans 9. Lets leave people out of our misinterpretation of the scriptures, lets take responsibility, leave Calvin, out of 2024.
@@hendrikjansevanrensburg8337 Romans is the election of Jacob, from which the Jews, over Esau. So it's about the election of a nation, not individuals.
@@JesseMgala that idea or understanding, do not agree with Revelation 13 8.
@hendrikjansevanrensburg8337 I know this verse very well, which is again stated in Rev 17:8.
Two options:
1)It says, *"from* the foundation of the world," which means since foundation of the world, names are being written in the book of life. This reading is very clear in the German Bible. It doesn't say, _"when_ the world was founded" or _"at_ the foundation of the world."
2)There are people whose names are written in the book of life even before birth. These are to be saved no matter what. Others names can be written when they hear the Gospel, believe and repent.
Take note that this is during the great tribulation, when the saints are being killed/beheaded by beast. To my mind, the church has already been caught up at this time(1Thess 4:16-17). Or as John 14:2-3 say, Jesus has already come to take His own. These saints in Rev 13 are those who misses the catching up and are given one last chance to be saved during the tribulation.
@@JesseMgala you say same people during the tribulation are given a chance to repent.
Yet we are saved by grace a gift for God.
Yet the people ( i believe all believers alive at that time, John 17 : 15 and 20, no rapture please) names are already written in the book of life.
Because they will not be as old as the earth.
My friend, read Psalms, what king David say about the LORD .
" be still and know that I am God"
What say God in the OT " there cames a time that they all will be taught by God" Christ say many years later, those that hear it came to Me. Why do we debate about scripture, if we have the help of the Holy Ghost? Should we not ask Him?
@hendrikjansevanrensburg8337 My friend, I've read the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation at least ten times and I memorized 9 chapters of Psalms, the NT maybe 100x. The tribulation is not only God's dealing with Israel, judgment of this godless world but also give chance the earth dwellers to repent. That's why after some plagues, you read "they didn't repent of their witchcraft, murders, sexual immorality...etc."
psalm25.8 and Jn.1.9
This is a really poor argument against Calvanism. Frankly, scripture for Calvinism is much stronger than the scriptures used against it. Truth is, most people who don’t like Calvinism, is typicallly cause they believe in a works based salvation, which is pure heresy. If we could earn salvation through works, Christ death becomes meaningless. Christ laid the price for sin because we could not earn salvation, plain and simple.
In Ephesians 2:8-9 the Bible says this. “ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.“
Therefore, if we chose God, we would have a reason to boast, because it was our decision and good work. But this is not what this passage teaches. it says salvation is a gift from God so that no man can boast. Therefore God chooses us, not the other way around.
What makes this so beautiful is the fact that we are wretched sinners, deserving of Gods wrath, but God with his amazing mercy love and grace chose us to know him and receive salvation. You had a death sentence which you deserved, and Christ paid your fine soley because he showed you love and mercy. Not because you earned it or deserved it. This is why Calvinism is beautiful, and it makes the gospel even sweeter.
Further, we see all through scripture that God definitely chooses people over and over. Romans 9, God chooses Jacob and not Esau while they were still in their mothers womb, before they did anything god or evil, so that Gods purpose of election would continue. Clearly God elects here.
God chose the nation of Israel.
All throughout the New Testament Paul refers to Christ followers as, Gods Chosen, God’s elect, those who God predestined before the foundations of the earth were laid. It’s quite clear and undeniable from scripture that God chooses, elects and predestines. Literally in every book written by Paul and others this is mentioned.
Finally, in the book of revelations 13:8, when speaking about the Anti Christ, it says “ And all will follow after the beast, all except those whose names were written in the book of life, before the foundations of the earth were laid”.
It’s undeniable that God predestines, chooses and elects people, and he did it before he even created the earth. God is all knowing, and all powerful so he certainly knows who is going to follow him and who is not. Read all of Roman’s 9 for the most obvious explanation of this. If God decided to make one person for Glory and another to reveal his wraith and power than he is fully within his own right to do it and who are we to question him? God gave us life, he shows mercy to some and others he does not. He’s not evil for doing this because we have all sinned, and are law breakers deserving of judgement. When you realize this, it makes you love Christ even more.
Either way, it doesn’t really matter that much, but I would be cautious calling a doctrine a plague especially when there are extremely strong arguments in scripture to support it.
Who told you believing is a "work"?
Rom 3:27
27 Where is boasting then? It is >>excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Boasting is EXCLUDED by the law of faith.
The opposite if what you said.
If faith was a work, you would have reason to boast.
But it's not, according to Paul.
Your argument is false on the face of it, let alone that Scripture debunks it too.
I'd stop taking the word of your Calvinist pastor or wherever you get your theology from if I were you.
Just go with scripture.
Of course you'd first have to read it to do so.
It’s a discussion, not an argument my friend. No need to insult. I posted numerous scriptures if you read my post fully. How do you interpret Romans 9 when God chose Jacob and hated Esau, while they were still in their mothers womb, before they did anything good or evil, so that Gods purpose of election would continue.
Here it is.
“Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad-in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls-she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25.”
I think the text is pretty clear here, that God certainly chooses and elects not based on works, but based on him who calls. If we are saved because we accepted Christ, than we a a reason to boast, but if it was God who did the work, and chose us, than we can only boast in the lord Jesus Christ. That is my point in my previous post.
Is it not easier to just see that Jesus is talking to the Jews of his time? The Father drawing the jews who believe in the old testament and when seeing Jesus they come to Jesus because they realize He is the messiah that was prophesied . But not for us, since we were not yet born when Jesus was here on earth. The way the Father and Jesus draws us now, is by the Holy Spirit. Since the Spirit was still not given when Jesus was on earth.
He is speaking of all mankind!
Not only the Jews !
God choses us first not we !
1John 4:19:
¹⁹ We love him, because he first loved us.
Eternal justice 'might' be implemented as eternal damnation.
Regardless, God has always known which persons would be eternally damned.
Calvinism vs Arminianism
One cannot have fellowship with darkness.
@@colleengleason6533 One can have fellowship --with-- _in darkness._ Many do ... literally.
Bars, nightclubs, concerts, ally ways, taxis, etc.
Some _live_ in darkness ... i.e. without JESUS.
Covens gather/fellowship at night in the woods.
Well, the context in John 6:44 is the said passage was addressed to the Jews. God's plan for the Jews in Israel is indeed fixed or predestined. John Calvin failed his interpretation that this is intended for salvation since he thought Israel was cut off or set aside in God's plan. This is what Paul wrote in Romans 9-11 where the subject is Israel. This is the reason Israel is indeed God's timeclock when it comes to prophecy. Only God can determine who among the Jews among the law covenant relationship shall be catered to the Messiah. Not all Jews in Judaism shall be catered to Christ when the Temple shall be constructed soon, but only the purer or elite ones, the 144,000 Jews, God's elect. The rest shall go through the needle's eye of knowing who their Messiah in a very horrible situation, the only means of survival.
Then those that respond have something to boast about.
What you have written is a logical fallacy that can been proven by reason and Scripture.
Receiving a gift doesn't give the recipient of that gift any credit or right to boast about the gift they have received. Please consider this.
'To those who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave them the right to become children of God' (John 1 v 14).
We are (and will be) responsible to God for whether we choose to receive or reject the gift of salvation God has offered us, through himself and his death on the ✝️ to provide atonement & forgiveness for our sins.
'For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no-one can boast' (Ephesians 2 v 8-9).
Your argument that choosing to receive God's gift of salvation constitutes a work that gives us something to boast about doesn't tally with these two key, fundamental verses in the Bible about salvation. It is a gift, offered to all through the gospel, and all will be saved or condemned based on their response of either receiving or rejecting that gift.
Please think again about this. I wish you well. Shalom 🙏
Romans 4:5- And to the one who DOES NOT WORK but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness
@@andreab2 And if one is able to seek God and believe in his natural unregenerate state, they have done a great work and have earned their salvation (Rom 4:1-2). Which would contradict what Paul said in Romans 3:11-12, and 1 Cor 2:14. And in Eph 2:1ff, Paul says we are dead in our sin, but (v5) God "made us alive". Dead men can't seek God.
@@jeffedwards8195
I appreciate the gentle spirit of your response. I find it both refreshing and convicting.
The problem with your gift analogy is the fact that Arminians conceive of the gift as conditional -- i.e. God offers the gift but you must do something to receive it (i.e. "choose" Him, or "choose" to believe). It is this "choosing to believe" which becomes a work, and enables men to boast before God.
1 Corinthians 1:26-31 directly addresses this. If you follow the argument Paul makes, it is essentially: 'God does the choosing, typically choosing the lowly to be saved, and the choosing is done by Him alone, so that no one can boast that they have fulfilled 'their part' of the bargain.'
@@TimWismer Thank you very much Tim for your response. I appreciate what you have written.
I struggle to accept the idea that in Deuteronomy 30 God laid before the Israelites a choice of obedience or rebellion, blessings or curses, life or death, and then exhorted them to 'choose' life, IF God had already predetermined and rendered certain by an eternal decree (as Calvinism teaches) those who would choose life and those who wouldn't. God, in his great mercy, has condescended to make himself known to us in ways that humanity can relate to, ultimately in the person of Jesus - surely, if God had already predetermined by an eternal, unchangeable decree the response of every Israelite in Deuteronomy 30, his appeal for them to 'choose' life would seem disingenuous and insincere? It is quite reasonable to state that if God tells humans they have a choice, they must be free to make that choice - if they are not free, but have been predetermined to make a choice, how can they legitimately be held accountable for making a choice if that 'choice' has been imposed upon them?
This is what Calvinism does - it teaches that God has predetermined all human choices (both good & evil) and rendered those choices certain, yet holds humans responsible for the choices that have actually been imposed on them. In Calvinism, not only are the elect saved by imposed, irresistible grace, but the non-elect are condemned by imposed, irresistible reprobation. If that were true, God would necessarily be absolutely sovereign to the extent of predetermining and controlling every good & evil human thought, word & deed leading to either eternal life or hell, but it seriously brings into question whether a God who determined before creating the universe that he would create the vast majority of humanity for the purpose of reprobation & condemnation is truly love in his nature.
However, God IS love, and his great love for humanity in the gospel exhorts us to 'choose life' by receiving the Son and believing in his name. Love gives us the ability to freely choose or reject him. The imposed election or imposed non-election of Calvinism is not love at all; it is merely coercive control. George Bryson's book, 'The Dark Side of Calvinism', explains this very well.
I don't have all the answers, only the LORD does, and I will continue to wrestle with these issues until they are no longer of any importance.
Thanks for your time Tim. Grace and peace be with you in Christ 🙏
John Piper says that our works which result from God's grace are then required for our final salvation, and he therein falsifies the Gospel. For merely socio-political reasons (to our shame), many who agree with the reformation of the Church are unaware that Piper is a heretic guilty of the Galatian heresy, but that is a fact, which means he is not a Calvinist, and so it would be good to no longer cite him in these regards.
Calvinism is a low firm if self love/agrandizement . I'm saved and you aren't nahnah na nah
you crack me up , every verse you clarify how this vs is the lynch pin of God's choosing .. one would think after all the vs's you read and have to jump thru hoops to theologise away one would just read the Bible and beleive it .. theologizing should only need to apply when the black and white is unclear.. Tat's how we get woman pastors and all this LGBT stuff, you could theologize Jesus wept as he knew the future and their sadness how he would comfort them and how he would not like their unbelief in him so he must of had some dirt get in his eye
I believe that Jesus said that while He was on earth as a human being. While still human, it was Father God who draws people to Jesus like the apostles and disciples. But, on His crucifixion and resurrection He will draw all men unto Him. Although, humans still have the responsibility to use their will to respond to the drawing of Jesus.
BOY ,HAS JOHN PIPER HAS IT SO WRONG..HE IS READING SOMETHING INTO SCRIPTURES THAT ARE NOT THERE....ARE THERE REDFINING GOD'S OWN WORDS. THAT IS SO DANGEROUS..THERE IS ALOT OF THAT GOING ON..EVEN IN POLITICS..
False teacher. God is sovereign. He chose us before the foundations of the world, and no man can come to God unless the Holy Spirit draws him. Apparently you left out Romans 9 out of your Bible.
More bold than I put it in my posts, but you are correct!
@@dsp62122 Subscribe to his page. He has explanations for all the scriptures that the Calvinists twist.
To call someone a false teacher just because you don't understand a legitimate interpretation of scripture shows your character. Having the right philosophy won't get you into heaven, but loving people is what God commands.
Read the Bible for yourself and don't worry about "de" anything
This debate continues due to a failure of a biblical timeline. There is no need for this type of gymnastics and refusal to leave the "ring" of the calvinistic argumentation. The truth of the matter is, Jesus was dealing specifically with the lost sheep of Israel during the end ofbthe old Covenant. He was gathering His Apostles from among "God's firstborn". The text has absolutely zero bearing on the New Covenant in which we live today. The Gospel has been preached to every creature under heaven with no restriction. We are no longer present in a time where Christ instructed His disciples to "go not the way of the Samaritans or gentiles", for that time has passed.
joshmckown: There is no need for this type of gymnastics and refusal to leave the "ring" of the calvinistic argumentation.
DW: Actually the opposite is the case.
The foundational core of Calvinism - and that which separates it from all of its alternatives is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD)
.
EDD for the Calvinist - functions as the most sacred CANNON within the CANNON of scripture.
Consequently - the Calvinist is going to read EDD *INTO* the text - provided it produces a result which the Calvinist finds palatable.
There are verses however in which reading EDD *INTO* the text produces a result which the Calvinist does not find palatable.
In those situations - the Calvinist will simply read the text NON-Calvinistically
Blessings!
@@dw6528It’s the telltale sign of bad doctrine. It’s why they have to create solutions to problems that never existed.
Yes, the father drew the Israelites to Christ through scripture and special revelation, and those who listened were granted to the son. Not dragged (never forced in any verse except for when Calvinists need a cherry picked definition), granted to “come”. No compulsory language.l. And since Jesus has risen He drew all men to himself.
@@MINDWARDEN DW: Very well said!!
John 12 is a totally different context. In that chapter, there were GREEKS seeking Christ. Jesus would draw all men, which included GENTILES, to himself. All men meaning Israel AND Gentiles. Not every man who has ever lived.
I expected better..
"Men" is not in the Greek text
@@JESUS_Saves3747 meaning?
@@WilliamStrain-th4xw That he is speaking about the elected !
Just a lie about "Draw", replace it with "Compel", it shows Calvinist doing Deceits at its height.
Very nice eisagesis. Very well done by completely, ignoring the meaning of the words that Jesus actually used in John 6.44.
Nobody saw that slight of hand insertion of the phrase "he who comes"? Slippery...
Poor LF. Still unable to fathom how our wills are from the fall.
Gen 4:26 KJV - And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
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Ah yes, Holy Scripture versus Calvinism, what a contrast. Here, without the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, and after the fall, men in their fallen will, seek God.
John Calvin rejected everything that was taught before about ability(will) and redefined terms to back up his own version. 🤷♀️
Very few had access to the Scriptures so at the time his views were accepted as flawless because no one could be a Berean
@@colleengleason6533
This is an interesting point. But you seem to be assuming that Calvinists these days are that way because of the church they grew up in. Undoubtedly this is true for many, just as it is also true of most Arminians, since 90% of Christianity believes in free will. Personally, it was reading the Scripture for what it says, and being willing to reject what my churches taught me, that caused me to be a Calvinist. But your point about being a Berean is well taken.
@@TimWismer So how did you decide that a minority of verses outweighed and redefined a majority of the text and thus proved Calvinism?
Yes people think they are being Bereans when they find Calvinism in Scripture but because John Calvin introduced an altered meaning to certain words and terms they are reading it through his filter, already primed and set up to find it.
@@koraegis No, Koraegis, our "will," is not from the "fall,".and Leighton does not make that claim. Evidence on the existence of human will?
Adam and Eve, and their children after the fall exercised their will.
Eve willingly reached out and aye the forbidden fruit, and Cain willingly murdered his brother.
Human will, created by God existed from the beginning and has been with humans since.
Evidence, not rhetoric, sir.