Do Pop Songs RIP OFF Classical Music?
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2020
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Nowadays I can hardly open UA-cam without the YT algorithm proposing me at least one video like:
- 5 songs that rip off classical music
- 3 top 40 hits copied from Bach
- Pop is unoriginal: here's how these 7 songs were lifted from classical pieces
Oh dear... (facepalm)
Where do I start? I'd like to tell these UA-camrs:
"Bless your heart, these songs are not copied. The way you think music works is very different from the way music actually works."
Yes, I know, in our culture it's really hip to say that songs are 'copied', 'ripped off', and so on.
"Pop songwriters copy" is one of these things that rings true, that is delicious to share with friends, and that make you feel smart when you say it.
The problem is... it's not true.
And yes, I can totally hear that these songs sound SIMILAR to classical pieces - I am not deaf. But they are not copied.
Unless we redefine "to copy" to mean something else... and by this new definition Mozart (and Haydn, and Haendel, and Scarlatti, and...) was copying too.
In fact we'd have to admit that Mozart did not write a single original note in his whole career!
So what is going on? Why several pop songs DO sound like classical music if they are not copied? Am I telling you that pop songwriter write ... gasp... original music?
(How's that for an 'heretical' thought?)
Well, I would really like to summarize all this in a soundbite... and yet, as it often happens, the truth is quite more complex and interesting than a short slogan.
But if you really want one, "pop songwriters write music in the same way Mozart did" rings pretty close to reality.
This one too: "If you don't know music theory history, you are destined to repeat it". Trouble is, it applies to you too.
Now if you want to know HOW Mozart wrote music and how you can do the same... or how you can do something different in case you don't want to write like pop songwriters, then you have to watch this video and hear the musical examples.
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Every time someone tell you that a song is copied from classical music... link them here!
And if you have little time... examples start at 6:34. (I know that after seeing them you will watch the videos from beginning lol)
Eric Carmen, All By Myself, Rachmaninoff, case closed.
George Harrison: My Sweet Lord
The Shirelles : He's So Fine
"Music theory is like history: if you don't know it, you are destined to repeat it".
Mind.
Blown.
I kept asking my history teachers what the point is. They had this panel as an answer. Now as an adult I can see how history repeats anyway. All those hours in history classes were wasted. But it sounds nice.
@@kekcsi Why were they wasted?
@@kekcsi why were they wasted?
I've never consciously tried to learn theory, rather "absorbed" it through learning many songs. In 15 min you have described what took me 15 years to learn. I LOVE your teaching
Super cool! If there are dozens such patterns, I'd gladly watch one video like this on each of them :)
Well, if this video does well, I'll gladly record one video like this on each of them :-)))
I agree!
I notice you show a few of my thumbnails at the start of this video as examples of this “fallacy” that some modern songs lift from classical music.
However, with the majority of examples I discuss of songs based on classical compositions the link is either openly acknowledged by the songwriter (Paul Simon, McCartney, Lennon, Eric Carmen), or the similarities are so obvious that it would be a big stretch to suggest they are merely down to “common patterns” (Maroon 5 vs Canon).
I appreciate that the common patterns that you describe in this video also play a part in linking old and new music... but I don’t understand why you rally against the sort of videos I make when the links I make between classical pieces and modern songs are well establish and supported by clear evidence .
Well, Eric Carmen 'copied' more than one melody note by note with the exact same harmonization from Rachmaninoff, there is no doubt there on what happened :-) You are clearly in the right there.
But in many other cases my impression is that songwriters write a song without an explicit reference, then later somebody tells them "this sounds like", and so they start doing 'damage control' by saying in all the interviews how they were 'inspired' by that classical piece.
So in a sense, you could say that I do not really believe the explanation that the songwriters themselves are giving :)
I'm just trying to explain how people can write music that is very similar to older music without consciously "copying"... and at the same time, why this is not really a problem.
In today's culture everybody is ready to point the finger and yell "this guy is copying", I think Mozart & Co. would have laughed it off.
I also wanted to convey a 'sense' of music that is very different from today's "originality at all cost" philosophy.
I honestly think that your videos are well-researched, and I have no criticism of what you are doing. I am sorry if this came across as something directed at you personally - it was really not my intention.
What about if we have a Skype/Zoom call, have a conversation about all this, record it and put it on UA-cam? I think something interesting may come out.
If you like the idea, send me an email to tommaso@musictheoryforguitar.com so we can discuss details.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Thanks for your reply. I understand what you're saying but I think your video comes off absolutist about the issue, when in reality, some songwriters really are genuinely basing their songs on classical compositions. All the best! 🙂
Wow, just when I thought I understood music theory completely, I see this.
The clue is in the name. Composition is putting things together not inventing new things.
Exactly
It is a little inventing you things, but then you put them with together with other things!
Bravo Tommaso! Your best lesson yet.
3:42 I don't mind staying with you here forever, Tommaso (ok, well maybe not foreeeeevvveeer but you get my point.) Great video!
Tommaso you are the Chord Chemist of the 21st Century! That was BRILLIANT! Thanks!
Chord chemist, yes! I've always thought that music is like the periodic table but with the element of surprise added!
Your videos are always great , but this one was mind blowing ! How can you know that much ?
I love your topics! I learn so much.
Keep up the good work!
It's a nice video, but you're clearly overstating your case. Some of the videos you show at the beginning have actual footage of the people who wrote the songs saying that they copied a particular classical piece. Also, Maroon 5's Memories is an obvious example of taking a little more than just a pattern.
You sir, are a genius, wonderful video. Every time I watch one of your videos I feel like it unlocks something I knew within but was unable to articulate, I wish I had this channel when I was a kid.
That was wonderful, thank you. Adding some Elvis, of course, made it even better. 👏👏👏👏👏
That was incredibly interesting and useful. Many thanks once again Tomasso.
Bravo! What a great educational video. Your knowledge is truly impressive!! Thank you
You should have more subscribers!! Great video!
I want more patterns! well done
OMG! 7:24 sounds almost like the Main Motif from Undertale! 😄 That's so interesting. I always wanted to learn more about how classical composing, but it's pretty hard to find info about that stuff that is easy to understand. Luckily this video exists 👍✨
Retro video game music often isn't chordal due to the limitations of 80s soundchips -- if you only had 3 channels for your music and one was for the percussion, you wouldn't be able to play 3 notes simultaneously. That leaves the music relying on 2 part harmonies, hence the similarity to Romanesca.
Me encanta, gracias por tanta información. Abrazos desde Argentina Rosario
Another excellent tutorial, Tommaso. You cut right to the essential elements of what, in musical terms, makes the music sound & feel the way it does. The history of how music is made is really important as we can't assume that musicians had the same motivations, working methods or music theory then as now, as highlighted when you noted that music theory in the days of Romanesca was about composition rather than analysis, reminding us of the importance of history & culture. The way you demonstrate how Romanesca works is superb, like watching Penn & Teller explaining how magic tricks works. Music isn't a trick. but like magic tricks it is cognitive. Best wishes, E r i c
Excellent.
A good musician always studies music history so as to understand why music is played the way is played.
Thank you.
wow .. new things for me to learn to create melody .. i try not to copy others patterns .. thank you million times sir 🤝
Bravo!!! and Thank you!!!, more patterns please!!!
Can you do a video on polyphony and how to use it practically to achieve certain feelings? I was taught to almost randomly fit together "allowed" intervals and had no idea how it would impact the sound I was creating.
Or do a video on writing bass lines below already existing chords or melodies, which is somewhat similar. It would be much appreciated!
Remember that polyphony is multiple MELODY lines, so every line should be able to stand on its own as a singable melody line.
@@jettrainbow Yes? Your point being?
Crowsinger i think the point is that writing melodies that complement each other when played together is exactly what polyphony is.
You are amazing Tommaso !!!
Brilliant! Thank you. ps: The Judy Garland clip vaulted me back to my childhood - nice memory.
Like playing the child's version of heart and soul and changing things around to find new feelings and experiment with new, to you, modes and keys.
When did having influences become copying?
When UA-camrs found that outrage gets more views than common sense... ;-)
This is amazing thank you. I’m surprised I’ve never learned about this in my life. A real mind opener thanks!!
what a fascinating video, thank you!!!
Mind blown! Thank you, Tommaso!
My best regards, sir!!!!!!! This video unlocked so many things in my mind
best of your videos... thanks a lot.
Very interesting and worth watching again. 👍
I'm guessing this sort of historical harmony theory isn't in your guitar theory materials, so any pointers to good sources for it? The whole idea of the Romanesca and similar harmony-based patterns is kind of fascinating...
Excellent lesson! Thank you so much. And it makes perfect sense now that you have explained it.
Amazing insights into the structure and history of music harmony. Thanks!
Very insightful.
Some pop musicians explicitly admit that they ripped off Bach - Sting in All This Time, for instance. The descending bass is very baroque there. He actually used the same movement but upwards in the chorus for King Of Pain.
The elaborate melody for the Amin example should've been Tom Waits "I'm gonna take it with me when I'm gone", because it's INFINITELY better than whatever that Numetal tune was. Nonetheless, great video and lesson - Cheers!
Congrats on this video 🙂 quick questions 1) in the romanesca, is the bassline always descending & if it isn’t what constitutes a “romanesca” bassline? 2) could this be used with any scale (or even without a scale) 3) is the melody harmonised in thirds or is it centred around the 1, 3, & 5? I’m a bit confused on what notes go in the melody & in the bassline 😅
The exact definition of Romanesca is still debated by theorists. But if you play through the examples, you get a "sense" of it, and you can write music with it. The original point of this is NOT to have a precise definition, but a starting point to make music.
I do have a question, however, about one specific pop song in particular. “Memories” by Maroon 5 is a song that uses the same chords as Pachibel’s canon (just transposed) and bits and pieces of the melody. What do you think of that song, like do you think that it had copied some things from Pachibel’s Canon or is it just coincidence?
IMO that song sounds like a ripoff because the melody is so unnatural sounding when sung - it stinks of being copy and pasted from Pachelbel rather than written anew.
I took it as an homage to things like weddings, since the cannon it is frequently used at those events and we think of weddings as big events. It’s more like taking something we know and using it to elaborate the bigger idea
I'm sure it's been said before but I think your channel can benefit more than just guitar players. Aspiring producers, singers or just anybody who wants to learn more can enjoy these videos imho
It can actually be usefull to composers, while they learn music theory they also learn a little about guitars! Always useful to learn about instruments you write for!
Very enlightening video. The only legit copying of other artist's composition is playing exactly that artist's song and call it your own; otherwise it is influence, deeply carved to our ears subconsciously.`
Where do I find examples of the other patterns?
Very glad that you spoke about melody... the excuse for musicians to harmonize! Always insightful content! Bravo e grazie
I used to play a mash up of that Green Day and Aerosmith songs on guitar.
Très intéressant, j’ai beaucoup aimé.
Very nice class.
Even better than usually!!!
Just ...blew my mind! 🤯😂😂
There’s only 12 notes.....a fascinating look at how it’s all put together
very interesting.
let's talk about Led Zeppelin (VS Taurus).. who recently won the legal battle for the song Stairway, and lots of people still saying that's unfair 'cause it's the same. Just as someone could just copyright a descending cromatic scale! So why can't I copyright a pentatonic? or why just the Cmajor7 chord?
Very nice!
Brilliant 👍🙏
All together now - the farm
But. But. The song Fools Rush in is copyrighted. Yes or no? If yes. Then indirectly the classical music line has been appropriated. Yes or no?
Have you ever wondered about the problem of
emphasizing harmony in accompaniment
during improvisation with chord changes? :D
Depending on the type of chords
how to emphasize their specific type.
ii V I
or
ii13 Vb9 I11
or
ii11 V11 I13
or
susii susV susI :D
I don't understand why you would say we didn't have chords yet in the 18th century. Chords are known to date back to the Baroque Period in the 17th century.
Baroque musicians did not think in terms of 'chords'. Rameau is recognized to be the first to talk about 'chords' and 'roots' and 'inversions', and even then his theories were not widely accepted (in fact, actively opposed). Regardless of what they play, it's not historical, nor correct, to call them 'chords'.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar so would you call them harmonised melodies or something similar?
Mostly it's counterpoint.
Too bad nobody ever gives the benefit of the doubt to film composers.
You are absolutely right. Every time a Jazz player takes a lick or a melody or a chord progression from somewhere, it's either a homage or a 'quote'. But when a film composer does it, they are copying. There is clearly a double standard.
"Somewhere over the Rainbow" was lifted from another persons work and was done so while the copyright was still valid. Why he didn't sue for royalties is beyond me.
I waited for "fly me to the moon" during the whole video , for me it was so obvious
Bravo
O, Canada 9:26 😀
You are the boss.
But, can we make different music?
It's like pink floyd, they where amateurs musisians whit different roots, and they create the psycodelic music.
Is that the same?
Greetings from Mexico.
Enjoy!
MASTERPIECE
This explains why classical music seems to have the most overly ridiculous chord progressions lol. Also, why did my college professor insist on describing every classical piece in terms of the I and the V if those pieces were embellished melodies, instead of chord progressions??
Well, they teach you the I V I thing because they are teaching you the music theory concepts to analyse pieces of music, not the music theory concepts to write music. This is a complex (but interesting) situation, I may make a video on it.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar writing music is far more interesting haha
Ya know, I was going to say that but it's already been said. ;-)
Ma se sei italiano perché il titolo è tradotto male?
Deberías tener traducción al español
Yeah, those classical guys got really fed up with western ears some time around the 19th century and started looking for inspiration in other cultures, where the ears were not so 'cultured' to spice it up. I have lived in China for some years - they don't experience the Johann Pachelbel syndrome as 'we' do - it's probably an anthropological issue - but when you want some shaking - go travel and listen or find the nearest singing-playing 'minority' in town
I see Steven Tyler, I click fast wahaha
Music is one part chord patterns, this is true and “4 chords” make up most pop music now days as the band “Axis of Awesome” shows with their song
“4 Chords”. I V vi IV are very common chord progressions in today’s climate of modern pop songs. I do feel there are songs that could rip off melodically and harmonically classical songs out there in the world but none we are aware of anyway that’s in popular music today. Having the exact same harmonic chord progression is one thing but the melody is the key driving factor for ripping off a song if it’s not embellished or changed enough drastically to be set apart from the original source.
Patters? Go back to school
What, and end up like you?
Nothing new under the sun!