I once listened to an anthropologist talk about interviewing an elder in a hunter/gatherer society in S America, he said the elder might as well have been a Buddhist because he was describing a view of reality which was in many ways just like Buddhist philosophy. I talked about that with an Osho from a local Rinzai group and wasn’t surprised at all as there are tales of what he called “holy fools” throughout history and cultures. I thought that was really interesting. Also, I’m amazed by how many people there are on YoTub who clearly know everything about the conditions and effort needed for enlightenment. It’s not in any way helpful, but it is amazing. 😅
The tricky thing is that if you’re starting with ami7 or ami (doesn’t matter) the first note is a C in Fly Me to the Moon. Again in Hurricane if you’re starting with ami , the first note is E. Hurricane is in a minor key whereas Fly Me is in a major key. In previous comment I described the first 5 descending notes as if the first note is E. Hurricane is in key of A minor. If Fly Me first 5 notes starts at same pitch , E like Hurricane it would actually be in the key of E major which has 4 #s. Yes , only 2 notes would be different (as stated previously) but I think where you may have got confused is if you’re starting Fly Me on an A minor or Ami7 , the first note of the five descending melody notes would be C (interval of a third below E ) and not E. If you’re playing Fly Me in the key of C major…the first chord is Ami or Ami7 and the descending melody starts on C , not E . Try it out and you will see !
The tradition of enlightened lay people was established during the Buddha's lifetime. If you want to explore this topic further you might read the Vimalakirti Sutra. Also, another excellent video! With regard to the training of monks and suitable environments for it, your teacher and mine have very similar views. My Roshi seems to value grit, commitment, tendancies and potential, rather than where you sleep, eat and work.
Just yesterday, I was reading "To Meet the Real Dragon" (page 173). There Nishijima says of Dogen, "He insisted that to practice zazan is enlightenment itself." One could argue that this is relevant to this topic.
Fly Me Like A Hurricane To The Moon …?? Brad…ok…I can’t help it but I CAN explain where the confusion arises as to the opening notes of the two VERY different songs: Fly Me To The Moon vs. Like A Hurricane. The first 13 notes of both songs are quite close as rhythmic phrases, but the actual notes are different in a few places by half vs. whole steps. And in each song the chord progressions although start on a minor triad…go on to wildly different directions. In Like A Hurricane the chord progression starts with what can be called an Andaluisian Cadence…going back in time to Flamenco music…or also known as a diatonic phrygian tetrachord progression. And I am NOT trying to show off here but we all know this chord progression: ami - G - F - E It’s been in thousands of surf instrumentals and Del Shannon’s ‘Runaway’ for example. Neil Young’s ‘Like A Hurricane’ starts on A minor to G but then changes direction. Fly Me To The Moon , starts as a descending major scale but if you’re doing it in the key of E major , the starting note being an E , the chord under it is C#minor! Not A minor! Under the lyric ‘Fly Me to the… (next chord ) F#minor, moon and let me , (next chord) B7 play among the (next chord) E major7 , stars’ Totally different! and comparing the first 5 notes of the melody , i am listing each descending note…(highest to lowest) Hurricane: E, D, C, B, A Fly Me To the Moon: E, D#, C#, B , A Try it out. What I think tripped you up are those pesky half steps. Is Like A Hurricane a ripoff? Close but not exactly. And way not chord wise. But it might very well be that Neil baby was singing Fly Me To the Moon one evening to himself and it inspired him to come up with a phrase …sorta like the classic standard. I dont know if that helps ‘enlighten’ you or anyone for that matter, and I only want to correct the misunderstanding because I really do know what Im talking about here in this case. I dont know anything else at all , but I love your videos, spectacular music renditions and down to earth talkin’ ! You saved me time and again!
Thank you for the explanation! In my version of Fly Me to the Moon I followed the chords on some online source. They had the opening chord as Am7. The melody I worked out myself by ear, so I don't know if it's correct. I know the songs aren't exactly alike, but the opening notes are pretty close!
Honestly, I think you'd like Yokoji as a place to spend some time. It is "strict" and they are not policemen. The place is whatever you want it to be as long as you show up for work and Zazen. They let you be, make efforts to stay out of ID politics (much to the dismay of many who have come then went), and keep it to the Practice. To me, it's a place for advanced students to practice. If you want no BS, get to it, deal with your own opinions and feelings (with help from everyone), it's a fantastic, non-showy place. It's Soto but we do koan, no requirement for koan (I stick to shikan), idk it's just... a place, and I feel like it's mine, and I feel sorry for anyone who loses that essence there. I did 3 months for my longest stint, and 6 months in total. It's just there for practice, usually low amounts of students living there... and it's right next to you, Brad. (And don't worry, it's not a Genpo place). Master Tenshin is a hard assed, playful, regular funny dude who prefers to spend his time watching violent films and cooking stews. Master Jokai who got Inka from Tenshin is caught up to the modern sentiments of the "West coast tendencies"-can navigate around them with more "in the field" experience-but still no bullshit and all practice. To me it's Zen's best kept secret in the California. It's still just a place to go, hang up all your agendas and master plans, and just get down with practice. I love the new-agers and idealists who come up there and try to move everything into their agendas and ideals of how society should be and how man should evolve. It's fun to see them let that all go eventually (or feel personally attacked from the ghosts of judgment, then leave). And on top of that, the facility is THE classic Zen temple fantasy setting in the mountains with Japanesy style buildings (built by Tenshin Roshi). It's got it all. Really a hidden gem.
Need to find me a study group. I legit thought people who left home was “coming of age”. My brain went to Dispelling Darkness in 10 Directions and Buddha talking to the kids leaving home
While listening to your excellent video I remembered a book that I read many years ago. It isn't a Buddhist text, but some folk may find value in its pages. It is as follows: Ordinary People as Monks and Mystics: Lifestyles for Self-discovery, by Marsha Sinetar. New York: Paulist Press, 1986.
Yes…what you’re doing is playing and singing the melody of Hurricane but singing the lyric of Fly Me to the Moon. A hybrid exactly, and a musical joke for those who get it. 😂
You said what I think a lot: who cares if person X said thus-and-such? When people in my tradition talk about the Apostle Paul and how he wrote that he didn't allow women to teach men, I say "Even if he believed that and taught it in like the first century, it doesn't mean we have to obey that today. It was his view, we're like 1700 years down the road. Hold teachings in an open hand nor a closed fist.
Only those that have no choice but to dedicate their life (at least in this moment) to understanding suffering have even the slightest chance of psychological death - those that just want a means of relaxation or moments of wellbeing or special powers will not magically become buddhas
We are fractals of the ONE. We help ourselves by helping others. Focusing on our own evolution, we ignore our siblings. Love and kindness Dude. Love and kindness. Sometimes, unfortunately, fire must be met with fire. Rules of engagement must always be observed.
I had a similar thought, bringing to mind Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj and Eckhart Tolle, none of which had monastic training before their enlightenment . I mean, if the person didn't consider any of them to be enlightened, which I'm sure it would be easy to find hardcore dogmatic Buddhists who would say they aren't, then they can still hold that idea that only monks can attain enlightenment.
As to Dogen disparaging lay people, you've been to his monestary right? Would that monestary be able to survive without lay people? It's lay people that provide the electricity and the food (i.e. farmers) not to mention other things. So without lay people, monks would be cold and starve to death. As a contrast, can lay people survive without monks? Well, in America "lay people" were surviving without "Buddhist monks" from it's founding, up until the 20th century. If anything, it's actually the monks that should be disparaged rather than the lay people.
@@complicitytheory Because without physical flexibility zazen is like pushing a giant boulder up a steep hill. Stretching exercise has been part of Indian culture for thousands of years for this reason.
@@PrincessHitomi Perhaps, eh. I don't do zazen. My seated meditation is a variation of super basic kundalini movements for 40+ minutes. Good for the mind, but keeps by back and spine in good condition, according to my chiro and acupuncturist. Now Im' looking to zazen to add at the end.
@@PrincessHitomi Maybe so, but what does it even mean to be a "virtuoso" at meditation? Even if we can answer that question, what does being a virtuoso at meditation have to do with becoming enlightened? Remember that Buddha had a spiritual teacher who taught him how to attain all kinds of dhyanic states (Alara Kalama), but Buddha left that teacher, because he saw that attaining those states was not the point. They can be useful, but enlightenment is not some special meditative state.
huh? Anyone can become enlightened. "Enlightenment is a joke because it is not something that you have to achieve, yet you have to make all possible efforts to achieve it. It is already the case: you are born enlightened. The word “enlightenment” is beautiful. We come from the source, the ultimate source of light. We are small rays of that sun, and howsoever far away we may have gone, our nature remains the same. Nobody can go against his real nature: you can forget about it, but you cannot lose it. Hence attaining it is not the right expression; it is not attained, it is only remembered. That’s why Buddha called his method SAMMASATI. Sammasati means right remembrance of that which is already there. Nanak, Kabir, Raidas, they have all called it SURATI. Surati means remembering the forgotten, but not the lost. Whether you remember or not, it is there - it is there exactly the same. You can keep your eyes closed to it - it is there. You can open your eyes - it is there. You can keep it behind your back - it is there. You can take a one-hundred-and-eighty-degree turn and see it - it is there. It is the same. George Gurdjieff used to call his method self-remembering. Nothing has to be achieved, nothing at all, but only to be discovered. And the discovery is needed because we go on gathering dust on our mirrors. The mirror is there covered by the dust. Remove the dust, and the mirror starts reflecting the stars, the beyond. Krishnamurti calls it awareness, alertness, attentiveness. These are different expressions for the same phenomenon"
@@ThichTamPhoMinh " THE ZEN MASTER HAKUIN WAS HONORED BY HIS NEIGHBORS AS ONE WHO LED A PURE LIFE. ONE DAY IT WAS DISCOVERED THAT A BEAUTIFUL GIRL WHO LIVED NEAR HAKUIN WAS PREGNANT. THE PARENTS WERE VERY ANGRY. AT FIRST THE GIRL WOULD NOT SAY WHO THE FATHER WAS, BUT AFTER MUCH HARASSMENT SHE NAMED HAKUIN. IN GREAT ANGER THE PARENTS WENT TO HAKUIN, BUT ALL HE WOULD SAY WAS, "IS THAT SO?" AFTER THE CHILD WAS BORN IT WAS TAKEN TO HAKUIN WHO HAD LOST HIS REPUTATION BY THIS TIME, ALTHOUGH HE DIDN'T SEEM MUCH DISTURBED BY THE FACT. HAKUIN TOOK GREAT CARE OF THE CHILD. HE OBTAINED MILK, FOOD, AND EVERYTHING ELSE THE CHILD NEEDED FROM HIS NEIGHBORS. A YEAR LATER THE GIRL-MOTHER COULD STAND IT NO LONGER, SO SHE TOLD HER PARENTS THE TRUTH - THE REAL FATHER WAS A YOUNG MAN WHO WORKED IN THE FISH MARKET. THE MOTHER AND FATHER OF THE GIRL WENT ROUND AT ONCE TO HAKUIN TO TELL HIM THE STORY, APOLOGIZE AT GREAT LENGTH, ASK HIS FORGIVENESS, AND GET THE CHILD BACK. AS THE MASTER WILLINGLY YIELDED THE CHILD HE SAID, "IS THAT SO?"
Hey friend Sorry, but no one has become enlightened by two 30 minute sessions per day. If that would do anything zen monks wouldn’t be doing 5 hours per day average, and what is it, 15 hours a day during sesshins? Theravada forest monks sometimes do 20 hours per day for 3 months during vipassana retreats. I don’t think monks would have such a long history of doing this if it was pointless. In my experience anything less than 2 hours a day does next to nothing, and Dogen and just about everyone else knows it’s really hard for lay folks to find time for 5 hours a day and regular retreats. Is it possible to achieve full awakening as a lay practitioner? Most likely if they put in the effort. But will they??? Or will they play video games and watch screens and doodle their guitars? And hang out with friends and go to work and diddle their girlfriends? Yeah probably that. If they have very little to do meditation becomes very appealing and next thing you know you’re putting an additional hour per day on each month or two and meditation eventually becomes a constant experience. Always watching the mind, always illuminated bliss and clarity. Just trying to be mindful doesn’t work, you need lots of meditation, spread throughout the day ideally. You get out what you put in. Hobbyists who want to be happier and less stressed meditate an hour a day. People who want to awaken meditate *as much as they possibly can,* (moving up gradually of course) making monastic life ideal. Peace and Love
You forgot what that guy said after he had dropped out of his mother''s womb: "I am the only one ..." That Gautama only had to meditate because he was such an arrogant a..hole from the beginning. Some people don't have that ego and don't have a past of thousands of women and luxury. They might not even have to sit down for meditation, like Huineng. He became a successor without sitting with the others and found out: It's a training of the mind.
I want to know if monks CAN become enlightened? If so, why haven't any monks made the connection between realizing Nirvana and the static nature of discrete quantum systems? There's no wiggle room with this argument: you've either realized eternal stasis or you're just guessing about why life and the universe exists.
I suggest reading "Quantum Mysteries Disentangled" by Ron Garret. You can even skip to figure 3a, or I'll just copy/paste the relevant text here.. "The entropy diagram for a system of three mutually entangled particles is shown in figure 3a. Like the case of two mutually entangled particles the total entropy is zero (no randomness in the system) and the conditional entropy of each of the particles is -1. But notice what happens if we look at only two of the three particles (figure Xb). The contribution to the entropy from the third particle disappears, and what is left over looks exactly like a system of two classically correlated (not quantum entangled) particles. The apparent entropy of these two particles is 1 (that is, there appears to be randomness in the system if we ignore one of the particles), but the actual total entropy of the system of three particles is still zero. ... "It turns out that this result generalizes to any number of mutually entangled particles. *If we ignore any one particle, the entropy diagram of the remaining particles looks like a system of N-1 particles in a classically correlated state with a non-zero entropy*." Ron Garret (*emphasis* added by me) If you haven't figure it out yet - owing to its unity, the Universe is a discrete quantum system, meaning "the Universe" is realized as "eternal stasis" (zero entropy) at the global scale. Only via "individuated" perception does the "perfect stasis" collapse into a "classically correlated universe with non-zero entropy". Mind=Reality, and hence the "still" mind defaults to its (reality's) absolute nature, this being "eternal stasis", aka "Nirvana", aka "God's (everlasting) grace". Furthermore, "zero entropy" or "eternal stasis" are synonymous with "pure freedom", or "absolute infinity", for the sheer lack of boundary conditions associated these terms. Because reality must be self-contained yet remain boundless, it must likewise be self-realized (realization is boundless containment), and hence the meaning of life - as the means of completing the "self realization" circle of containment without boundaries. @@HardcoreZen
I once listened to an anthropologist talk about interviewing an elder in a hunter/gatherer society in S America, he said the elder might as well have been a Buddhist because he was describing a view of reality which was in many ways just like Buddhist philosophy.
I talked about that with an Osho from a local Rinzai group and wasn’t surprised at all as there are tales of what he called “holy fools” throughout history and cultures.
I thought that was really interesting.
Also, I’m amazed by how many people there are on YoTub who clearly know everything about the conditions and effort needed for enlightenment. It’s not in any way helpful, but it is amazing. 😅
I am from South America (Argentina), and yes, there are indigenous tribes that have philosophies similar to Buddhism and other Dharmic religion.
We’re enlightened. That’s how we come into this world.
No. One would think enlightment is an inconvenience to non-monks too.
Na. Everything, both and neither.
The tricky thing is that if you’re starting with ami7 or ami (doesn’t matter) the first note is a C in Fly Me to the Moon.
Again in Hurricane if you’re starting with ami , the first note is E. Hurricane is in a minor key whereas Fly Me is in a major key. In previous comment I described the first 5 descending notes as if the first note is E. Hurricane is in key of A minor. If Fly Me first 5 notes starts at same pitch , E like Hurricane it would actually be in the key of E major which has 4 #s. Yes , only 2 notes would be different (as stated previously) but I think where you may have got confused is if you’re starting Fly Me on an A minor or Ami7 , the first note of the five descending melody notes would be C (interval of a third below E ) and not E. If you’re playing Fly Me in the key of C major…the first chord is Ami or Ami7 and the descending melody starts on C , not E .
Try it out and you will see !
So I'm playing a hybrid of the two songs? I started the guitar solo on E, but it's all notes from the C major scale.
Isn’t half assed essentially the middle way?🤭 just kidding
😄
The tradition of enlightened lay people was established during the Buddha's lifetime. If you want to explore this topic further you might read the Vimalakirti Sutra.
Also, another excellent video! With regard to the training of monks and suitable environments for it, your teacher and mine have very similar views. My Roshi seems to value grit, commitment, tendancies and potential, rather than where you sleep, eat and work.
Just yesterday, I was reading "To Meet the Real Dragon" (page 173). There Nishijima says of Dogen, "He insisted that to practice zazan is enlightenment itself." One could argue that this is relevant to this topic.
Fly Me Like A Hurricane To The Moon …??
Brad…ok…I can’t help it but I CAN explain where the confusion arises as to the opening notes of the two VERY different songs: Fly Me To The Moon vs. Like A Hurricane.
The first 13 notes of both songs are quite close as rhythmic phrases, but the actual notes are different in a few places by half vs. whole steps. And in each song the chord progressions although start on a minor triad…go on to wildly different directions. In Like A Hurricane the chord progression starts with what can be called an Andaluisian Cadence…going back in time to Flamenco music…or also known as a diatonic phrygian tetrachord progression. And I am NOT trying to show off here but we all know this chord progression: ami - G - F - E
It’s been in thousands of surf instrumentals and Del Shannon’s ‘Runaway’ for example. Neil Young’s ‘Like A Hurricane’ starts on A minor to G but then changes direction.
Fly Me To The Moon , starts as a descending major scale but if you’re doing it in the key of E major , the starting note being an E , the chord under it is C#minor! Not A minor! Under the lyric ‘Fly Me to the… (next chord ) F#minor, moon and let me , (next chord) B7 play among the (next chord) E major7 , stars’
Totally different! and comparing the first 5 notes of the melody , i am listing each descending note…(highest to lowest) Hurricane:
E, D, C, B, A
Fly Me To the Moon:
E, D#, C#, B , A
Try it out.
What I think tripped you up are those pesky half steps.
Is Like A Hurricane a ripoff? Close but not exactly. And way not chord wise. But it might very well be that Neil baby was singing Fly Me To the Moon one evening to himself and it inspired him to come up with a phrase …sorta like the classic standard. I dont know if that helps ‘enlighten’ you or anyone for that matter, and I only want to correct the misunderstanding because I really do know what Im talking about here in this case.
I dont know anything else at all , but I love your videos, spectacular music renditions and down to earth talkin’ !
You saved me time and again!
Thank you for the explanation! In my version of Fly Me to the Moon I followed the chords on some online source. They had the opening chord as Am7. The melody I worked out myself by ear, so I don't know if it's correct. I know the songs aren't exactly alike, but the opening notes are pretty close!
Honestly, I think you'd like Yokoji as a place to spend some time. It is "strict" and they are not policemen. The place is whatever you want it to be as long as you show up for work and Zazen. They let you be, make efforts to stay out of ID politics (much to the dismay of many who have come then went), and keep it to the Practice. To me, it's a place for advanced students to practice. If you want no BS, get to it, deal with your own opinions and feelings (with help from everyone), it's a fantastic, non-showy place. It's Soto but we do koan, no requirement for koan (I stick to shikan), idk it's just... a place, and I feel like it's mine, and I feel sorry for anyone who loses that essence there. I did 3 months for my longest stint, and 6 months in total. It's just there for practice, usually low amounts of students living there... and it's right next to you, Brad. (And don't worry, it's not a Genpo place). Master Tenshin is a hard assed, playful, regular funny dude who prefers to spend his time watching violent films and cooking stews. Master Jokai who got Inka from Tenshin is caught up to the modern sentiments of the "West coast tendencies"-can navigate around them with more "in the field" experience-but still no bullshit and all practice. To me it's Zen's best kept secret in the California. It's still just a place to go, hang up all your agendas and master plans, and just get down with practice. I love the new-agers and idealists who come up there and try to move everything into their agendas and ideals of how society should be and how man should evolve. It's fun to see them let that all go eventually (or feel personally attacked from the ghosts of judgment, then leave). And on top of that, the facility is THE classic Zen temple fantasy setting in the mountains with Japanesy style buildings (built by Tenshin Roshi). It's got it all. Really a hidden gem.
I've never heard of it.
@@HardcoreZen Oh, do go! It's right next to Idyllwild
Need to find me a study group. I legit thought people who left home was “coming of age”. My brain went to Dispelling Darkness in 10 Directions and Buddha talking to the kids leaving home
How do you judge a practice as "half-assed" if there is no "goal" or "progress"?
Was Dogen just mixing up a batch of flavor aid there?
While listening to your excellent video I remembered a book that I read many years ago. It isn't a Buddhist text, but some folk may find value in its pages. It is as follows: Ordinary People as Monks and Mystics: Lifestyles for Self-discovery, by Marsha Sinetar. New York: Paulist Press, 1986.
Fun trivium: Devadatta is cognate with the Latin Deodatus.
Yes…what you’re doing is playing and singing the melody of Hurricane but singing the lyric of Fly Me to the Moon.
A hybrid exactly, and a musical joke for those who get it.
😂
Reminds me of a Theravada Monk who said that once a lay person becomes enlightened they either become a monk or die. 😬
Maybe when a monk becomes enlightened they either become a lay person or die. :)
@@austinbrown7574if you're interested look up Nanavira Thera who chose to commit suicide rather than become a layperson again due to ill health
You said what I think a lot: who cares if person X said thus-and-such? When people in my tradition talk about the Apostle Paul and how he wrote that he didn't allow women to teach men, I say "Even if he believed that and taught it in like the first century, it doesn't mean we have to obey that today. It was his view, we're like 1700 years down the road. Hold teachings in an open hand nor a closed fist.
But can even those with mullets become enlightened?
MU!
Well the Buddha was not a munk…
Vimalakirti and layman pang were the real deal
Only those that have no choice but to dedicate their life (at least in this moment) to understanding suffering have even the slightest chance of psychological death - those that just want a means of relaxation or moments of wellbeing or special powers will not magically become buddhas
We are fractals of the ONE. We help ourselves by helping others.
Focusing on our own evolution, we ignore our siblings.
Love and kindness Dude. Love and kindness.
Sometimes, unfortunately, fire must be met with fire. Rules of engagement must always be observed.
84,000 expedient means!
if you think you need to, you do
honestly... I think among enlightened people, maybe 10% are not monastics...
Eckhart Tolle wasn't a monk, so I guess if you just have a nervous breakdown, you're in!
I had a similar thought, bringing to mind Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj and Eckhart Tolle, none of which had monastic training before their enlightenment . I mean, if the person didn't consider any of them to be enlightened, which I'm sure it would be easy to find hardcore dogmatic Buddhists who would say they aren't, then they can still hold that idea that only monks can attain enlightenment.
So what's the point of Mahayana then?
sounds like the Byrds
Short answer: No. Enlightenment isn't bound to a tradition. Much less to those who simply shave their heads and wear robes.
Sounds like enlightenments' already here. But we're not paying attention.
Last time I checked, all, both and nothing is the only answer to that.
As to Dogen disparaging lay people, you've been to his monestary right? Would that monestary be able to survive without lay people? It's lay people that provide the electricity and the food (i.e. farmers) not to mention other things. So without lay people, monks would be cold and starve to death. As a contrast, can lay people survive without monks? Well, in America "lay people" were surviving without "Buddhist monks" from it's founding, up until the 20th century.
If anything, it's actually the monks that should be disparaged rather than the lay people.
He's not really disparaging laypeople. As I said, I don't think this piece of writing was meant to be heard or read by anyone outside of Eihei-ji.
and so the appeal of Pure Land Buddhism nembutsu practice for the average workin' Joe and Jane...
Fukui prefecture not Gifu
Oh yeah! You’re right. Thanks.
thought you said you need a teacher to do zazen
First and foremost, you need to be physically flexible.
@@PrincessHitomi why first? now about second or fourth? Or 17th?
@@complicitytheory Because without physical flexibility zazen is like pushing a giant boulder up a steep hill. Stretching exercise has been part of Indian culture for thousands of years for this reason.
@@PrincessHitomi Perhaps, eh. I don't do zazen. My seated meditation is a variation of super basic kundalini movements for 40+ minutes. Good for the mind, but keeps by back and spine in good condition, according to my chiro and acupuncturist. Now Im' looking to zazen to add at the end.
Only people who devote ALL their TIME to practice can become enlightened.
Being a monk is only a way of devoting time.
So enlightenment is like a piggy bank where if you put enough in the slot out pops enlightenment?
@@austinbrown7574 Yes, like any other endeavor in life. If you put enough time into playing an instrument....out pops virtuosity.
If you devote all of your time to practice, then how do you obey one spoke of the eightfold noble path, i.e. right livelihood?
@@elzoog Well monks in southeast Asia are not allowed to work, or even exercise. So in that case right livelihood means no livelihood.
@@PrincessHitomi Maybe so, but what does it even mean to be a "virtuoso" at meditation? Even if we can answer that question, what does being a virtuoso at meditation have to do with becoming enlightened? Remember that Buddha had a spiritual teacher who taught him how to attain all kinds of dhyanic states (Alara Kalama), but Buddha left that teacher, because he saw that attaining those states was not the point. They can be useful, but enlightenment is not some special meditative state.
huh? Anyone can become enlightened.
"Enlightenment is a joke because it is not something that you have to achieve, yet you have to make all possible efforts to achieve it. It is already the case: you are born enlightened. The word “enlightenment” is beautiful. We come from the source, the ultimate source of light. We are small rays of that sun, and howsoever far away we may have gone, our nature remains the same. Nobody can go against his real nature: you can forget about it, but you cannot lose it. Hence attaining it is not the right expression; it is not attained, it is only remembered. That’s why Buddha called his method SAMMASATI. Sammasati means right remembrance of that which is already there. Nanak, Kabir, Raidas, they have all called it SURATI. Surati means remembering the forgotten, but not the lost. Whether you remember or not, it is there - it is there exactly the same.
You can keep your eyes closed to it - it is there. You can open your eyes - it is there. You can keep it behind your back - it is there. You can take a one-hundred-and-eighty-degree turn and see it - it is there. It is the same.
George Gurdjieff used to call his method self-remembering. Nothing has to be achieved, nothing at all, but only to be discovered. And the discovery is needed because we go on gathering dust on our mirrors. The mirror is there covered by the dust. Remove the dust, and the mirror starts reflecting the stars, the beyond. Krishnamurti calls it awareness, alertness, attentiveness. These are different expressions for the same phenomenon"
"All beings are from the very beginning Buddhas." This is the first line of the poem "Song of Zazen" written by 18th century Rinzai Zen Master Hakuin
@@ThichTamPhoMinh " THE ZEN MASTER HAKUIN WAS HONORED BY HIS NEIGHBORS AS ONE WHO LED A PURE LIFE.
ONE DAY IT WAS DISCOVERED THAT A BEAUTIFUL GIRL WHO LIVED NEAR HAKUIN WAS PREGNANT.
THE PARENTS WERE VERY ANGRY. AT FIRST THE GIRL WOULD NOT SAY WHO THE FATHER WAS, BUT AFTER MUCH HARASSMENT SHE NAMED HAKUIN.
IN GREAT ANGER THE PARENTS WENT TO HAKUIN, BUT ALL HE WOULD SAY WAS, "IS THAT SO?"
AFTER THE CHILD WAS BORN IT WAS TAKEN TO HAKUIN WHO HAD LOST HIS REPUTATION BY THIS TIME, ALTHOUGH HE DIDN'T SEEM MUCH DISTURBED BY THE FACT.
HAKUIN TOOK GREAT CARE OF THE CHILD. HE OBTAINED MILK, FOOD, AND EVERYTHING ELSE THE CHILD NEEDED FROM HIS NEIGHBORS.
A YEAR LATER THE GIRL-MOTHER COULD STAND IT NO LONGER, SO SHE TOLD HER PARENTS THE TRUTH - THE REAL FATHER WAS A YOUNG MAN WHO WORKED IN THE FISH MARKET. THE MOTHER AND FATHER OF THE GIRL WENT ROUND AT ONCE TO HAKUIN TO TELL HIM THE STORY, APOLOGIZE AT GREAT LENGTH, ASK HIS FORGIVENESS, AND GET THE CHILD BACK.
AS THE MASTER WILLINGLY YIELDED THE CHILD HE SAID, "IS THAT SO?"
Exactly @@ThichTamPhoMinh
Gassho
Hey friend
Sorry, but no one has become enlightened by two 30 minute sessions per day. If that would do anything zen monks wouldn’t be doing 5 hours per day average, and what is it, 15 hours a day during sesshins? Theravada forest monks sometimes do 20 hours per day for 3 months during vipassana retreats. I don’t think monks would have such a long history of doing this if it was pointless. In my experience anything less than 2 hours a day does next to nothing, and Dogen and just about everyone else knows it’s really hard for lay folks to find time for 5 hours a day and regular retreats.
Is it possible to achieve full awakening as a lay practitioner? Most likely if they put in the effort. But will they??? Or will they play video games and watch screens and doodle their guitars? And hang out with friends and go to work and diddle their girlfriends? Yeah probably that. If they have very little to do meditation becomes very appealing and next thing you know you’re putting an additional hour per day on each month or two and meditation eventually becomes a constant experience. Always watching the mind, always illuminated bliss and clarity. Just trying to be mindful doesn’t work, you need lots of meditation, spread throughout the day ideally.
You get out what you put in. Hobbyists who want to be happier and less stressed meditate an hour a day. People who want to awaken meditate *as much as they possibly can,* (moving up gradually of course) making monastic life ideal.
Peace and Love
"Sorry, but no one has become enlightened..."
As one of Brad's teachers, Tim McCarthy would say, what do you mean by enlightenment?
Outstanding comment!
@@elzoog "Sorry, but no one has become enlightened..." I think you could just stop right there. :)
And just how long do you spend each day polishing your tile?
You forgot what that guy said after he had dropped out of his mother''s womb: "I am the only one ..." That Gautama only had to meditate because he was such an arrogant a..hole from the beginning. Some people don't have that ego and don't have a past of thousands of women and luxury. They might not even have to sit down for meditation, like Huineng. He became a successor without sitting with the others and found out: It's a training of the mind.
I think many academics and scientists are enlightened.
lol
So they say...
Speaking as one of those, I don't think so. I like my science colleagues more than my humanities colleagues, but they're mostly oblivious.
Clowns too. Clowns are enlightened.
Don't forget bussdrivers. They are the calm centers of our world.
I want to know if monks CAN become enlightened? If so, why haven't any monks made the connection between realizing Nirvana and the static nature of discrete quantum systems? There's no wiggle room with this argument: you've either realized eternal stasis or you're just guessing about why life and the universe exists.
Huh?
I suggest reading "Quantum Mysteries Disentangled" by Ron Garret. You can even skip to figure 3a, or I'll just copy/paste the relevant text here..
"The entropy diagram for a system of three mutually entangled particles is shown in figure 3a. Like the case of two mutually entangled particles the total entropy is zero (no randomness in the system) and the conditional entropy of each of the particles is -1. But notice what happens if we look at only two of the three particles (figure Xb). The contribution to the entropy from the third particle disappears, and what is left over looks exactly like a system of two classically correlated (not quantum entangled) particles. The apparent entropy of these two particles is 1 (that is, there appears to be randomness in the system if we ignore one of the particles), but the actual total entropy of the system of three particles is still zero. ...
"It turns out that this result generalizes to any number of mutually entangled particles. *If we ignore any one particle, the entropy diagram of the remaining particles looks like a system of N-1 particles in a classically correlated state with a non-zero entropy*." Ron Garret (*emphasis* added by me)
If you haven't figure it out yet - owing to its unity, the Universe is a discrete quantum system, meaning "the Universe" is realized as "eternal stasis" (zero entropy) at the global scale. Only via "individuated" perception does the "perfect stasis" collapse into a "classically correlated universe with non-zero entropy".
Mind=Reality, and hence the "still" mind defaults to its (reality's) absolute nature, this being "eternal stasis", aka "Nirvana", aka "God's (everlasting) grace".
Furthermore, "zero entropy" or "eternal stasis" are synonymous with "pure freedom", or "absolute infinity", for the sheer lack of boundary conditions associated these terms. Because reality must be self-contained yet remain boundless, it must likewise be self-realized (realization is boundless containment), and hence the meaning of life - as the means of completing the "self realization" circle of containment without boundaries.
@@HardcoreZen