Why LANDS are the HARDEST thing about Commander Deck Building
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- #EDH #Commander #mtg
30 lands aren't enough - so how many lands ARE enough in Commander? If your deck isn't working, play more lands!
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Starting with your lands is so important. I cut every deck idea down to 60 spells and if I can re-add things back in, great. But I'd rather play a few too many lands than not enough and it's a huge difference mentally when being able to add more spells than having to add more lands and cut spells later after having played with them.
In general, I usually run 35 lands as it’s a nice in-between, and this isn’t even considering ramp or mana rocks
Ramp and mana rocks are not lands.
This is hands down the best video I've ever seen on the topic. Explaining the topic in a matter that's sciencie but simple and visually demonstrating it is amazing.
It's hard for people to just go with the 38 template just because some mtg personality tells them to, most people don't like to be told "trust me I know" when it doesn't feel intuitive to them.
Glad it was helpful!
Why is 30 lands out of 99 cards distilled to 1/3rd? The whole point is precision: 1 land in every 3 cards would happen at 33 lands in a commander deck with 1 commander. What the...
And not even a minute later: 40 lands gives us about 50/50 chance to draw 2 or 3 lands?! What the heck! Simple maths: 40/99*7 is 2,82, so the chances of drawing 3 cards in opening hand is MUCH higher than drawing 2.... if I see another dumb calculation, I will stop watching this trash.
10 ramp spells and atleast 38 lands plus a couple mdfc cards is pretty much what you need in any non cedh deck but most people play the shuffle until you get a good hand version of the commander which means the land count barely matters
In a year of spell table playing, I can say that the last part of your sentence is not true. 98% of the games I play, you get one free mulligan and go down afterwards.
I usually pick 59 (+commander) vital cards, rocks and ramp included. Then, I look at my mana needs and curve, and determine how many more spells I can add. And the rest is lands. Regardless of deck, I never go under 35 and over 40, unless it's landfall tribal.
this and the other 2 deckbuilding videos are my absolute favorite, and I come back every time I build a new deck. currently building Miirym dragons with an average 3.5 mana value and 40 land, but still need to fine tune it to compensate for card draw. thanks a million for making this resource!
Great point about starting with your lands for deck building. I personally start my deck builds with 34-35 lands and 10 ramp sources. Then I focus on starting with 10 card draw sources and 10 targeted removal sources. Then that leaves me with the remaining 34-35 cards to fill out my deck and make adjustments to ramp and draw as I begin playtesting.
Exactly how i build i also add 3-4 boardwipes for every deck but im always terrible at building my removal for a deck and it’s normally lower
@@kingofsaltt3836 board wipes for me fluctuate a lot depending on the play style of the deck. On average most of my decks have 2 board wipes. But my zombie decks has 4, because well they are zombies and I plan on getting them back. And then my mono blue Grazilaxx deck only runs Cyclonic Rift but that’s because I have so much targeted bounce effects that I can repeat with that deck.
@@shanemccullen2172 yeah any guideline doesnt work for every deck its just the goal i start out with if im making a super go wide token deck i run a board wipe only if its on theme or is one sided
I have seen this online, very often, i feel that 36-37 is the magical number but that’s for me.
Depending on your balance of rocks, draw, and ramp it's typically a good start!
@@CommanderMechanic Thanks for your opinion.
For me its 30-32 lands and maybe 10 ramp/rocks. Works nearly every time. (Mostly 1/2 color no green decks)
I needed to hear this. Thank you.
General rule of thumb. 50 sources of mana. 30-40 lands. 10-20 ramp, dorks, etc
I used to run 37-38 on average but every time I got flooded, now I run 33+10 ramp and haven't been flooded or screwed since.
"flooding" isn't typically an issue about volume of lands, it's more a challenge tackled by card selection and draw!
@@CommanderMechanic what does this even mean
@@winniebowser4447 that he doesn’t have enough options to use the basics, so they stay in hand
@@JLKaizen i know what mana flooding is you buffoon
@@winniebowser4447 card selection = scry effects, draw is, well, draw. What's so hard to understand?
I think, on average, many decks have around 35 lands. I have a deck with only 30 lands and it works, because I have card draw, cost reduction and most of my cards are 2 - 3 mana. For me, 33 lands is usually the minimum, though. When making a new deck, I do exactly what you do: start with my lands. I just put in 33 lands at the beginning and then see how things develop. Play testing is really important to figure that out.
I’ve learned over the years starting high on the land count (say 40) then cutting a couple depending on the cmc of the deck has been more beneficial. Great video and wonderful tips.
like you said I set side 36 lands immediately, then I look for 5-10 sources of ramp, 10-15 sources of card draw, 5-10 sources of removal, 2-5 board wipes, 41-23 pieces for my game plan.
When it comes to making sure I have the right color balance for 2+ colors I look at the colored pips on each casting cost and tally them, and add a basic land for every complete tally.
for example, I am working on my Rayami deck at the moment. she has 33 Black pips, 41 green pips, and 13 blue pips which comes to 7 swamps, 5 forests, and 3 islands.
Remember too, green ramp that grabs lands take lands out of your deck. So drawing lands naturally after that gets harder and harder. Make sure to have excess lands, especially if most of your ramp is land based.
Check out this week's video on rocks & ramp - it's live right now:
ua-cam.com/video/fXzb4SP2Ko8/v-deo.html
But if your ramping then actually drawing lands gets less necessary.
@@thedanath wrong. Watch the video linked above.
@@mfmageiwatch You can reach a point where having more land drops is redundant. If you say have 8 mana on turn 4-6 that for most people is enough to cast most things out of their deck.
I have played many games where i dont NEED lands anymore and just want to draw spells to do things.
@@thedanath /whoosh. Try watching the video again. You have clearly missed the point. We are not talking about when you have 8 mana or 12 mana, we are talking about when you have 4 mana...
I started with advice from Tomer (MTGgoldfish): 37 lands, 13 nonland mana sources. That worked out for me. If I have a lot of cantrips or cheap draw I might go lower on land; depending on the curve I might get lower or higher on ramp. My Talrand cantrip deck needs considerably less land; if I don't draw my early lands I cantrip into them. My Tiamat deck has much more ramp; I want to cast my commander early with an empty hand so I don't have to discard the five dragons I've tutored for.
We also have quite generous mulligan house rules.
I have found 35 is my favorite land count to start with, and then will adjust from there.
My comfort Zone is around 38 Lands, my Decks usually Peak at 3-4 Mana spells
When it comes to landbases, mine changes depending on the amount of colors. For example, my Go-Shintai of Life's Origin deck has 41 land in it due to utility and colors while my Strefan, Maurer Progenitor deck only has 33 and it works well since it's just a Rakdos deck.
Starting with your lands with each new deck is so crucial! I tend to go around 35 to 38 lands and about 10 mana rocks/ramp minimum. Almost half of every one of my decks is focused around mana
Great video. It's more math, but determining how many lands of each type you need based on spells in a multi color deck might make a worthwhile topic.
I've been trying out 38 with at least 5 rocks/ramp in the deck, but that could be too low as well. But making slots is easily the hardest thing to do in a deck, especially if the whole reason you built it was to run all to cool X type of cards, like all your favorite Elves or Angels or what not.
You might want to double your ramp sources without cutting lands. My Kaalia deck has 35 lands and 10 or 11 ramp sources. Granted, I need to go back to the drawing board and figure out what I want to do with the deck.
My current praxis is at least 12 ramp sources, at least 12 sources of card advantage, and 36 lands, and this is working quite well for me.
Generally, the more ramp you run, the less lands you need to run, and the more card draw you need to hit your land drops and keep a steady stream of spell cards coming. Ideally you'd run as few lands as possible, while achieving this steady flow of spells.
My land count is dependent on mana curve and colors.
1 color: 33-35 lands
2 color: 34-36 lands
3 color: 35-37
4 color: 36-38
5 color: 37-39
Ramp then determines decks CMC and commander CMC.
That ranges anywhere from 6-16 ramp pieces.
I normally work with these numbers as a starting area, then adjust as the deck is being built. Then further adjustments are made as I play the deck in Hope's of smoothing out its play.
I usually start with a number of lands, (usually 37), but cut down my spells to 62. Then fill in those land slots. It solves the same problem as “starting with lands,” but I can make sure I’m using the right proportion if colors, and the right utility lands.
yes exactly! placeholder lands to start, don't compromise on the number of lands total - glad it works for you too!
37-38 with three or four mdfcs counting as lands is usually what I go with
I personally never go below 36 lands for my decks. I just find thats my spot where i wiff the least.
i had a lot of gruul decks for both casual and competitive games. i usually aim for average of 3 cmc, and play around 36 lands, so when i start to build a deck, i use that much first, and add a few more if needed, but i rather cut some high cost cards than putting more lands just to play them.
just checked, and 3 of my current 4 decks use 36 lands and the last one 38.
My highest win ratio decks often have 40+ lands
How many purple lands should i run? i see the purple pip on the cardbacks, but no mentioning of any lands that make purple... Whats up with that?
Just kidding, great video!
Lol at the thumbnail. That look when you are playing one too few lands and a cut must be made.
I really like the analysis method of number of cards drawn, but I missed a proper in-depth analysis of how card advantage (draws and tutors) screws with the math. In effect, you can run less lands the more (early) card advantage you have, and I don't think that this was communicated clearly enough.
Your run-of-the-mill Edric deck, for instance, runs 30+ evasive one-drops, a bunch of
Check out the following videos in the series
I don't think I've gone lower than 31...
...but I've never brewed a build with more than 35, and this is considering I favor building for the purpose of waiting for my opponents to make their moves and plays, keeping aggro away from my general direction, even if I'm playing an aggressive strategy. I also like to run janky combo cards and 'red-herrings' which actually synergize with at least 10-15 other cards, and/or it goes good with the commander. I can't keep table hate away from me forever, but I like to spec into being sneaky.
This is also considering I'm definitely not the only player at the table, so sometimes my opponents do my dirty work for me. This part of the philosophy has left me short on removal in some instances, however.
My mana-fixing go-to's are generally the 'ol vanilla Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, all the low budget Diamonds (Marble, Sky, Charcoal, Fire, and Moss) associated with the commander's color identity (if the deck is one color or two), the associated Ravnican signets (if I can get them all), the associated talismans (sometimes, but not often), Wayfarer's Bauble, Traveler's Amulet, and Wanderer's Twig (if I can find it, or Renegade Map instead).
I cut Cultivate and Kodama's Reach (and probably even even Harrow) from all of my decks a long time ago, but I try to manage Explore and Reach (new) Heights (?) in my green brews. It also seems I've taken a particular liking to Ancient Stirrings, You Meet in a Tavern, and Harmonize. If I'm feeling more green ramp than ramping with rocks, then Search For Tomorrow and Rampant Growth makes it in. Even then, Horizon Spellbomb is pretty nifty for the little incremental bits.
Also, I put in utility lands like Ash Barrens and Myriad Landscape. As for Temple of the (Sad Opening Hand) False God, it usually does not come back to bite me in the rear, and the boost is very welcome. When it actually has backfired, it's usually in a 1v1 game.
The next deck I plan on sleeving up is a mono-white Choose a Background vehicles brew with about 34 lands, and 3 of them are modal double-face spells. I may have to kick a vehicle for a Board the Weatherlight to dig for historic stuff if I'm stuck pushing the cars to the gas station.
I find 35 lands and 7 ramp sources to work well. Though I will try your suggestion of 40 lands and see how it works.
Usually I put 34 Lands, but follow a few rules:
RULE 1 - Around 21 Ramps/Mana Rocks, where at least 14 of those costs 2 CMC Tops.
RULE 2 - Minimum of 11 Card draws/tutors (card advantage in general) where min 7 must costs 3 or less CMC where at least 4 of the 11 are to be used consistently, not just once (ex: Chulane, Bolas Citadel, Null Profusion, etc).
An important detail, almost another rule, is that, those cards that aren't in the minimum, can/must be flexible, for instance, can be a draw and mana-rock at the same time, such as "Dreamstone Hedron" or "Coveted Jewel".
Every time I stickup to those rules the land count is enough! But if I'm greedy and put to many ramps with no draws or only big rocks, I mess up with the deck.
Note: Decks for fun, not cEDH
I play as low as 24 in an Emry deck, and never more than 32 in everything else. I used to start my builds around 36 lands then depending on mana rocks and ramp go down from there, but I always draw land when I dont want to see it.
I generally start with the lands whenever I build a deck. 36 is my starting point.
I tend to go a bit lower on lands, staying around 30-33, but I don't include MDFCs in that count. Having the ability to play a land or a slightly overcosted spell seems worth it to me.
I'm one of the greedy deck builders who starts building with only 33 lands in the deck. I have a deck that has a 1.6 average value that only runs 28 lands, and my top end is a deck with a 3 average value that runs 40 lands. Admittedly I focus on my curve very heavily, most of my decks run around a 2.25 average value, so I'm hardly ever punished for not having enough lands.
I do think you make some really good points though
I have a jhoira deck with 30 lands and it’s still incredibly reliable. I also have a 52 land borborgymos deck that has managed to get mana dicked before 😒😂
Not often. But it’s happened
Take those 38 lands, cut 5 of them for 1 and 2 mana ramp and you're good to go :)
36 or 37 as a base number and deck theme will determine the final count.
I always go 36, but play more Card davantage than most people I know, so it evens out and I very rarely have games where I'm screwed
35 is the sweet spot for me for most of my casual to high power decks, without including mana rocks or ramps spells. High power can have 34 or 33 at times depending on the strategies. My cEDH builds more often than not are at 30 or sub 30 group.
I’m like a lot of people and start with 35 or 36. If it’s a land-based deck, I try not to dip below 40
I'm terrible. I usually play 30 lands 6 rocks and a low curve.🤣🤣
DID YOU KNOW that rocks cost mana and lands are FREE?
@@CommanderMechanic but lands alone cant ramp.... rocks can. Like I said I'm still a terrible person.... 🤣✌👌👍. For example my newest deck is mardu colerd -30 lands +1 evolving wilds - 6x mana rocks and ashnod's alter . Vast majority of cards are cmc 3/2.
32 to 35 lands seem to work for my decks. But that is including duel and tri lands
I tend to find that I put too many lands in, so what I started doing was just putting in more creature lands/dual faced lands so that I'm a bit less prone to flooding because of my obsession with lands 🤣
how many is "too many"?
@@CommanderMechanic Like, almost half my deck ends up being lands 😅
@@airtempest8945 you should probably have an exact number in mind, and yeah 50 is almost certainly too many unless it’s a landfall deck. 40 is generally the high end of “normal”.
I usually shoot for 35, with low cmc and lots of card draw, but it can vary.. Whenever I cut below 35 I generally regret it.
I always roll out with 40 lands. It is an easy number to keep track of and the best card is worthless if you can't play it.
38 lands minimal hasn't failed me yet
Me running 30 lands and 14 mana rocks: nervous sweating
You have a less than one percent chance of drawing a card in your deck. there are 99, not 100. I mean it is close enough to work, but it's not technically true.
And yes, I have to be pedantic sometimes.
I have 37 lands as base, but more feels kinda bad. 😢 But this is probably one problem my deck has with average cmc 4. My problem solving idea was more cheap card draw/selection.... Gonna have to see.
Yep, that is a solution. Also, if you're running green, with land fetching ramp spells you can decrease the number of lands you need in the deck in a major way, because you essentially have 10-15 spells that is both a spell and one or more guaranteed land drops.
TBH even 35 seems SUPER low to me. I've never, never once eeeever ran under 37 lands. I could be playing mono green elves where the deck tops at 3cc and has like 10 mana dorks not including Crypt,Ring, etc and I'd still run 37 lands. And 37 is low for me. I'd only risk 37 specifically if it was something like elves. I usually run 40 lands. Again, not including mana rocks at all. Im even fully aware it sounds excessive to most people but its a combination of "you probs should run more lands even you 35 land people" and that I just straight up am literally cursed. I cant run under 37 in commander or 22 in any 60 card format. No exception, literally none.
I run 36 ish lands, it’s never failed me
Mulligan to 2 is still an option XD
My rule of thumb has always been 40 lands, then take out a land for every 2 pieces of ramp/fixing/mana rocks, down to a minimum of about 36. If I'm running more than 8 pieces of ramp, that means the deck is unusually rampy and I'd want to be sure I'm hitting land drops so my ramp is actually ramp.
Lol, 8 pieces of ramp is unusually rampy? Even my aggro deck runs 8+. Every other runs 12-15 or more.
I'm curious to hear what more you have to say regarding cheap ramp and draw. I find that once you're sitting at 12-15 cheap ramp spells and a handful of fairly cheap draw spells you're moving just fine with less lands.
Imo, land count is irrelevant. It's all about the number of suitable mana sources. Is an arcane signet considered a suitable mana source? Not for a turn 1 or 2 play, but it is after that. So based on how quickly you need to be at your business spells will determine whether or not a ramp source counts as a mana source
Land is FREE mana generation. I don't understand why people are ok putting in mana generation they have to PAY FOR over lands, which are FREE.
@@CommanderMechanic because they're not limited to 1 per turn. I don't want 5 mana turn 5. I want 6 mana on turn 4
@@andrewp979 no but I’d always rather draw into 1 land and an arcane signet over no lands, an arcane signet and a mindstone
@@NotANameist yep, 2cmc rocks don't count towards your mana counts for t1/2 but do counts towards the counts for T3 onward.
Probably not. Will add more? Probably not.
I have a cdh deck that runs incredibly smooth with 27 but I usually force 36 unless it's landfall I push 40
In a green deck with many rampant growth effects wich remove lands from your deck, should you run more lands?
Depends on your mana curve, highest cost cards, commander cost, etc
Im making a one drop deck would 30 lands be ok? This is just a for fun deck.
definitely. if you have a consistent curve, more lands are just about casting more spells each turn rather than getting to bigger spells. determine what the minimum number of lands you can "survive" on is, and dial it into that.
I may look like a fool here but i am compelled to ask. What's the deal with the 6 colored cards back? Is it an inside joke?
technically not allowed to use the official magic card back in content; this version is considered parody which gets around that policy.
You don’t need more than 34 lands ever in almost any deck. Just run ramp, please
Unless you are running something that is land-centric, I find this to be the rule.
@@GregoryHolts I agree
Even for a casual budget restricted deck? I tend to build with 50$ or less in mind
@@serd213 yes, depending on the color you’re in. there are so many budget ways to ramp and fix your mana at the same time
34 is not the lowest count given here, but it’s still just barely managing to average 3 lands drawn by turn 3 without 1-2 mana draw.
Ramp or not… you miss your land drop on turn 3, that totally sucks. Then you’re sitting there wasting time using your mana rocks to pay for more mana rocks.
It's not that hard- you look at the number of cards you are running of each color, minus the multi color cards, minus the artifacts/colorless cards, plus the mana symbol of every multicolor card that has more than one of every mana symbol.
Then you distribute lands accordingly by a fractional value of 1 land for every 3 or 4 colour cards.
This will vary depending on what colours you use, how much mana ramp and how much card ramp you have, but it's a very reliable base- even when I make a tri color deck I will only have to re-adjust the mana after 1 test game.
Ah geez- also have to factor in-
What's your most expensive spell?
What's your least expensive spell?
Average converted mana cost is important to determine too for fine tuning.
Not that hard? Bro that was like more words than this entire video
Why is 30 lands out of 99 cards distilled to 1/3rd? The whole point is precision: 1 land in every 3 cards would happen at 33 lands in a commander deck with 1 commander. What the...
And not even a minute later: 40 lands gives us about 50/50 chance to draw 2 or 3 lands?! What the heck! Simple maths: 40/99*7 is 2,82, so the chances of drawing 3 cards in opening hand is MUCH higher than drawing 2.... if I see another dumb calculation, I will stop watching this trash. And people call it their favourite? Is this dumbed down to primary school level?
Yes.
Guys do not put 40 lands in your deck. You need to reduce your curve and have more card draw. If you have a lot of card advantage or filtering hitting your land drops is trivial. I only put 30 lands in every single deck I make because if your other cards put in the work you don't need more lands.
Aesi is my card draw and costs 6 so I need to put 40 lands
@@aklepatzky This is how you end up with less gas in your deck and more engine filler
@@byronstier7438 im running mystic remora, tatyova, aesi, rhystic study, gush and sylvan library as card draw, the creme of the creme. Name a draw spell in simic that belongs to the same category as those that im missing so that I can cut lands, ill wait.
@@aklepatzky you need a way to win the game
@@byronstier7438 I have those, youre evading my question tho. You say I need to cut lands ("do not put 40(...)). Tell me what card draw cards im missing in that scenario
I really wanna see these mythical non-cEDH decks that people claim to run 32-33 lands in and “never have problems.”
Is half your deck just 1-2 mana cantrips because if not what the eff is going on? Because your land count is mathematically ridiculous.
30 lands means LESS than 1 in 3 cards you draw are lands. 33 lands would be much closer
Bro have you heard about mana rocks or ramp, if you playing colossal dreadmaw tribal deck just do your shit. And you know how horrible to draw lands after turn six
34-38 no more no less unless youbare in a deck that requires less or more. Even at 40 you will get landfuhced or landsflooded its the nature of random. But generally lands cant win the game spells do.
Eh, I go by my mana curve but my minimum is 32 and max is 37, unless it's a landfall deck, then I'm going 40+