kids are very easy to make, like to make a cup of coffee. if it took hard work and some kind of special abilities, we would not be here 😁. I dont know why they are celebrated as such. anyways 😐
What a breath of fresh air! Now i know why i dont like life, and never did, even as a young person. He points out the obvious that most people never think about...because its too terrible. Of course if you had a good and stable start of life, the human predicament is much more bearable. Not the case with many of us. My life was difficult and painful from the start, so i always felt the pain of life more acutely. I am only halfway thru the book and so far agree with everything David says...cheers!
This is because of evolution and natural selection which did not key for the masses to understand this argument as it's unnecessary for nature's two mandates of survival and reproduction.
@@paulheinrichdietrich9518 Idk if we should make fun of her , she is an everyday person . I think I can give her a Vague answer , But Depression is actually considered a neurological discease . So that probably means its actually a simple discease that can be treated using medicines , recomend by a psychiatrist
@@uvindukulathunga3860 I guess so, but the problem is that she missed the whole point of the conversation which was a discussion on the meaning of life not on mental diseases.
If Pessimism make you depressed , that just means you are more intuned to reality . Nothing is going to change by going to Therapist , you would only get more intuned to reality hence more depressed after , talking with therapist After all Therapist is also a man in denial of his pointless exhistance
I have listened to Benatar take callers in South Africa and the US, no doubt the US callers are stupider, like the lady calling twice about inflamation which was a non sequitur to the conversation. LOL
ValhalaFiveSix She is a woman - how on earth are we to expect logic or the point of conversation. Most women aren't able to focus on the point in hand.
I think this lady made the elementary and common mistake to assume that if you think that existence is pointless then you must be depressed . I have been thinking like David since I was a young child , but assumed I was the only one . One thing that amazes me , or perhaps is evidence for the Pollyanna outlook , is how many people I meet who claim to be life affirming and yet can't survive without psychoactive drugs or good old grog . As an aside there is lots off evidence that certain types of depression do respond positively to anti inflammatory drugs .This was a chance finding when people with intractable depression were treated with anti-inflammatory drugs for arthritis they reported improvements in mood . No evidence though that antiinflammatory drugs provide cosmic meaning !!!
"One of the lessons of history is that nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to say."-Will Durant...Thought+Time=Suffering...Being and Non-Being create each other, things arise and she let's them come, things disappear and she let's them go.
@@cjalisyas i am an antinatalist and i agree life sucks but we actually dont know what life or death is and if non existence is even possible. That being said i dont think thats a reason to reproduce
1. David Benatar is a gift to all conscious entities. 2. So glad I stuck around for the callers. So phenomenally ignorant and it's so comical how David and the host take them all so seriously.
Hypothetically, if we looked at life as existing in an open air prison planet; and our outlook as individuals within this confined prison exustance; it matters not that one has an optimistic outlook or not, one is still a trapped prisoner, confined within the boundaries of the prison system (legislation, corruotion and statistics of bad luck and suffering). One of course can have benefits within this system; but usually only so providing one steps on others to gain such benefits. If one parasites off of others, or uses others' resources and skills for their benefits. And that's how this parasitic prison planet exists. Some more privileged prisons feeding off of the hardship and suffering of other less privileged prisoners.....whilst preaching that we have to have an optimistic outlook on this stinking corrupt prison system. And produce more baby prisoners to keep this whole shitty system going. Bring my offspring into the prison - No thank you.
Im saying there is 2 way that I can think of for someone to be ANist 1) Their lack instinctive need to survive or reproduce 2) Their instinctive need to be right and better than other over power , their need to survive and reproduce Its a mix of both for me , maybe 1st one has a more prominent effect . See the thing is ANist/pessimistic argument is in a way 4th dimensional extension of our thought process .
The instict needs to survive and reproduce is induced in us by the nature that's why most people follow them while need to be right morally is not natural and it's can only be achieved through thinking and understanding hence few people follow them that why their are very few antinatalist in this world
Maybe this solves the fermi paradox. The reason for the great silence is that thinking organisms eventually are all nonreplicators because they dont want to cause suffering for potential offspring like we have.
I am a trinitarial nihilist. I believe existence is intrinsically triune, as comported by the existence of the Holy trinity being the most intimately universal of all ontological natural parables (though I'm an atheist). In scientific terms I believe that ontological triunty translates as being three forms of nihilism that can be extrapolated philosophically --cosmic nihilism, spiritual semi-nihilism, and mechanical semi-realism. In light of the inclusion of cosmic and spiritual semi-nihilism, I believe that mechanical realism is by proxy also nihilistic. By that way, I'm also pro-natalist and don't know how to best euthanize the world's biological kingdom, but am slowly mulling it over.
I believe Benatar is a naturalist. He doesn't seem to indicate any belief in anything supernatural... And if naturalism is true, then we'd agree that _for a dead brain_ it wouldn't be _like_ anything. That dead brain has stopped doing consciousness (if indeed consciousness is a function of the brain - which, if we're consistent with naturalism, it is, and so souls don't exist) So it is comparable to going completely unconscious via anesthesia, or via a hit to the head, etc. One second you're there having experience, and the next you're awake and notice that time has passed -- and you're confused, etc... Unconsciousness is a proverbial time machine. You didn't sit in a black void counting down the minutes until you woke up... So this demonstrates a fact; that _only experience is what's experienced_ ... You cannot experience a lack of experience. This is a very important concept to understand when thinking about death. So let's ask ourselves, "what happened _after_ the last time I didn't exist?" Well, the answer is: a brain was born and then it started doing consciousness... So if everyone in the universe were to cease to exist, but then sometime after everyone's death a brain comes to exist (it would have came to exist whether or not everyone died -- it's coming about was not caused by anyone's death) somewhere in the universe, then that's exactly what happened before: "Non-existence before birth" was ended by the birth of a brain. And so if a brain comes to exist after everyone died, then it'd be _that_ consciousness-that's being done by that one and only brain-that is what would follow everyone's death; as opposed to "nothingness" or whatever other word people use. The same applies to if you were never born, because other brains were born, and existed, and so experience was being done. There was experience -- via all the living brains on Earth, and possibly elsewhere, before your birth. There was no lack of experience as long as experience is occuring anywhere.
It's kinda hard to be optimistic when there's common people struggling just like slaves, it's twisted, just hear me though, it's good to make amends when you're leaving all that drama amongst snakes who pretend.
3rd world countries must be struggling 3 times more than develped countries, yet most 3rd WC people still think that bringing new borns into existence is a God's blessing 😐
Hurry up, please. Now is the moment. As things stand, the leading self-righteous elders in the world on our watch are charting a course to the future that will wreak havoc on what is surely sacred and normalize what is plainly profane…..come what may. Those few with power like the status quo; whereas, the many too many without power want necessary change and a “course correction” while a ‘window of opportunity’ remains open. Note to self: the window is closing steadily in our time. When unbridled overproduction, overconsumption and overpopulation activities of the human species are running rampant and effectively overspreading earth, perhaps this moment in space-time is an occasion to do something that is different and somehow right, for a change.
you were always going to die drama queen, nobody's special and nobody's sacred. Our food will run out faster than our health. Deal with it. You'll only have to be afraid until you stop breathing. After that it will be like you never existed.
Let's assume people stop having children and humanity goes extinct -- but then intelligent life will likely evolve again from the life that still survives on earth. Those new beings will again have to go through immense suffering just like our ancestors have, only to reach the level of our current civilization (which has relatively much lower levels of suffering compared to the past). So there could actually be a moral imperative to better or preserve the current human condition to prevent this from happening, contrary to Benatar's position.
Yours is the ONLY logical intelligent MATHEMATICALLY COMPUTABLE objection to AN. You are the ONLY person other than myself who has thought this. THAT SAID, I still push to outlaw breeding children, because I know some will still slip through the cracks of the law.
The biosphere is dying now, Scientists are saying humans will be extinct in less then 50 years, so the whole argument is moot, humans are on the way out.
@Dark Caesar My computer is messed at the moment, I shot the monitor out with a bb gun so I got 3/4 of a picture, I can't link a bunch of studies due to the video issues, however check guy mcpherson, Paul Beckwith, Michael Mann, there are many, use google it is your friend, we probaly have much less then 50 years probaly less then 10.
"This is a godless conversation" okay lady, if you want to prove a gods existence then we can start bringing spiritual/ god given meaning into the conversation. But until then no thanks. And 2nd the most pessimistic philosopher ever, Mainländer, belived that god killed itself and that as a part of god ourselves we are drawn to suicide/ to fulfill gods will. So bringing god into the conversation doesn't even mean it gets any less negative.
Benatar cares about humans. More than most.
Yeah , kindda ironic
But he seems to habe a rational kind of compassion for humans
Benatar does not care just about humans but all sentient life.
@@irrelevant2235 Then Efilists do.
I personally believe that having kids is the most irresponsible mistake anybody can make but it's celebrated as the ultimate achievement.
Unfortunately we need the little monsters. We need them to grow up and pay taxes and suppport thr old.
@@robynhope219 it's sponge scheme
kids are very easy to make, like to make a cup of coffee. if it took hard work and some kind of special abilities, we would not be here 😁. I dont know why they are celebrated as such. anyways 😐
What a breath of fresh air! Now i know why i dont like life, and never did, even as a young person. He points out the obvious that most people never think about...because its too terrible. Of course if you had a good and stable start of life, the human predicament is much more bearable. Not the case with many of us. My life was difficult and painful from the start, so i always felt the pain of life more acutely. I am only halfway thru the book and so far agree with everything David says...cheers!
The callers reflect the stupidity of the masses very well.
This is because of evolution and natural selection which did not key for the masses to understand this argument as it's unnecessary for nature's two mandates of survival and reproduction.
These are the people responsible for bringing more suffering
THE BEST EXISTENCE IS NONE EXISTENCE.
KNOW LIFE, KNOW PAIN.
NO LIFE, NO PAIN.
"This is a Godless conversation!" But also a wonderful one. Many thanks :)
I N F L A M M A T I O N
lol, that woman was abnoxious.
@@paulheinrichdietrich9518 Idk if we should make fun of her , she is an everyday person .
I think I can give her a Vague answer ,
But Depression is actually considered a neurological discease .
So that probably means its actually a simple discease that can be treated using medicines , recomend by a psychiatrist
@@uvindukulathunga3860 I guess so, but the problem is that she missed the whole point of the conversation which was a discussion on the meaning of life not on mental diseases.
If Pessimism make you depressed , that just means you are more intuned to reality .
Nothing is going to change by going to Therapist , you would only get more intuned to reality hence more depressed after , talking with therapist
After all Therapist is also a man in denial of his pointless exhistance
Yes ! Thanks for the upload.
I have listened to Benatar take callers in South Africa and the US, no doubt the US callers are stupider, like the lady calling twice about inflamation which was a non sequitur to the conversation. LOL
ValhalaFiveSix
She is a woman - how on earth are we to expect logic or the point of conversation. Most women aren't able to focus on the point in hand.
@@petealder9389 silence, heretic! women are equal-nay, superior!-to men.
if i repeat it enough, it becomes true.
I think this lady made the elementary and common mistake to assume that if you think that existence is pointless then you must be depressed . I have been thinking like David since I was a young child , but assumed I was the only one . One thing that amazes me , or perhaps is evidence for the Pollyanna outlook , is how many people I meet who claim to be life affirming and yet can't survive without psychoactive drugs or good old grog . As an aside there is lots off evidence that certain types of depression do respond positively to anti inflammatory drugs .This was a chance finding when people with intractable depression were treated with anti-inflammatory drugs for arthritis they reported improvements in mood . No evidence though that antiinflammatory drugs provide cosmic meaning !!!
@@michaeldillon3113 Exactly!
thanks for this!
"One of the lessons of history is that nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to say."-Will Durant...Thought+Time=Suffering...Being and Non-Being create each other, things arise and she let's them come, things disappear and she let's them go.
the interview section was hilarious
i was hoping somoene would upoad it to youtube
Great interview
Outstanding book
Oh nice. I wanted to buy that book
A lot of the callers were kind of wacky.
I would never bring kids into this hell hole of existence. Life sucks!!!
KNOW LIFE KNOW PAIN.
NO LIFE NO PAIN.
@@cjalisyas i am an antinatalist and i agree life sucks but we actually dont know what life or death is and if non existence is even possible. That being said i dont think thats a reason to reproduce
@@TheRollmopsi We know what death is
Its the state of not thinking at all
@@uvindukulathunga3860 this is a metaphysical statement. To which we dont have access with absolute truth statements.
1. David Benatar is a gift to all conscious entities.
2. So glad I stuck around for the callers. So phenomenally ignorant and it's so comical how David and the host take them all so seriously.
Hypothetically, if we looked at life as existing in an open air prison planet; and our outlook as individuals within this confined prison exustance; it matters not that one has an optimistic outlook or not, one is still a trapped prisoner, confined within the boundaries of the prison system (legislation, corruotion and statistics of bad luck and suffering).
One of course can have benefits within this system; but usually only so providing one steps on others to gain such benefits. If one parasites off of others, or uses others' resources and skills for their benefits.
And that's how this parasitic prison planet exists. Some more privileged prisons feeding off of the hardship and suffering of other less privileged prisoners.....whilst preaching that we have to have an optimistic outlook on this stinking corrupt prison system. And produce more baby prisoners to keep this whole shitty system going.
Bring my offspring into the prison - No thank you.
Thank you for posting this AntiNatalist प्रजननविरोधी and I appreciate that....
Im saying there is 2 way that I can think of for someone to be ANist
1) Their lack instinctive need to survive or reproduce
2) Their instinctive need to be right and better than other over power , their need to survive and reproduce
Its a mix of both for me , maybe 1st one has a more prominent effect .
See the thing is ANist/pessimistic argument is in a way 4th dimensional extension of our thought process .
The instict needs to survive and reproduce is induced in us by the nature that's why most people follow them while need to be right morally is not natural and it's can only be achieved through thinking and understanding hence few people follow them that why their are very few antinatalist in this world
'purposeful purposeless life'
Terrible audio quality
Maybe this solves the fermi paradox. The reason for the great silence is that thinking organisms eventually are all nonreplicators because they dont want to cause suffering for potential offspring like we have.
I am a trinitarial nihilist. I believe existence is intrinsically triune, as comported by the existence of the Holy trinity being the most intimately universal of all ontological natural parables (though I'm an atheist). In scientific terms I believe that ontological triunty translates as being three forms of nihilism that can be extrapolated philosophically --cosmic nihilism, spiritual semi-nihilism, and mechanical semi-realism. In light of the inclusion of cosmic and spiritual semi-nihilism, I believe that mechanical realism is by proxy also nihilistic.
By that way, I'm also pro-natalist and don't know how to best euthanize the world's biological kingdom, but am slowly mulling it over.
I don't understand a lot of terms that you have used in this comment. Is there an introductory source for this?
Where is the original source?
Consider This With Stuart Campbell, KZYX&Z Radio (2017-10-27)
considerthis.us/?p=717
Why do women in particular have hard time understanding this argument
Because of evolution and natural selection.
Mayuresh Indapurkar a rather sexist generalisation don’t you think?
Mayuresh Indapurkar I don’t!
@@rovert46 It isn't sexist.
They have children ?
G o d l e s s n e s s
This is a Godless interview!
Humans so goddamn frail , want an Extra terrestrial being to justify their exhistance
@@paulheinrichdietrich9518 That's why it's a good interview!
41:08
"The disease of Godlessness" XD
The callers 🤦
The host 🤦
Hahaha the end perfectly summed it up.
I believe Benatar is a naturalist. He doesn't seem to indicate any belief in anything supernatural... And if naturalism is true, then we'd agree that _for a dead brain_ it wouldn't be _like_ anything. That dead brain has stopped doing consciousness (if indeed consciousness is a function of the brain - which, if we're consistent with naturalism, it is, and so souls don't exist) So it is comparable to going completely unconscious via anesthesia, or via a hit to the head, etc. One second you're there having experience, and the next you're awake and notice that time has passed -- and you're confused, etc... Unconsciousness is a proverbial time machine. You didn't sit in a black void counting down the minutes until you woke up...
So this demonstrates a fact; that _only experience is what's experienced_ ... You cannot experience a lack of experience. This is a very important concept to understand when thinking about death. So let's ask ourselves, "what happened _after_ the last time I didn't exist?" Well, the answer is: a brain was born and then it started doing consciousness... So if everyone in the universe were to cease to exist, but then sometime after everyone's death a brain comes to exist (it would have came to exist whether or not everyone died -- it's coming about was not caused by anyone's death) somewhere in the universe, then that's exactly what happened before: "Non-existence before birth" was ended by the birth of a brain. And so if a brain comes to exist after everyone died, then it'd be _that_ consciousness-that's being done by that one and only brain-that is what would follow everyone's death; as opposed to "nothingness" or whatever other word people use.
The same applies to if you were never born, because other brains were born, and existed, and so experience was being done. There was experience -- via all the living brains on Earth, and possibly elsewhere, before your birth. There was no lack of experience as long as experience is occuring anywhere.
Define 'supernatural' and then provide evidence that such a thing exists.
It's kinda hard to be optimistic when there's common people struggling just like slaves, it's twisted, just hear me though, it's good to make amends when you're leaving all that drama amongst snakes who pretend.
3rd world countries must be struggling 3 times more than develped countries, yet most 3rd WC people still think that bringing new borns into existence is a God's blessing 😐
Hurry up, please. Now is the moment. As things stand, the leading self-righteous elders in the world on our watch are charting a course to the future that will wreak havoc on what is surely sacred and normalize what is plainly profane…..come what may. Those few with power like the status quo; whereas, the many too many without power want necessary change and a “course correction” while a ‘window of opportunity’ remains open. Note to self: the window is closing steadily in our time. When unbridled overproduction, overconsumption and overpopulation activities of the human species are running rampant and effectively overspreading earth, perhaps this moment in space-time is an occasion to do something that is different and somehow right, for a change.
you were always going to die drama queen, nobody's special and nobody's sacred. Our food will run out faster than our health. Deal with it. You'll only have to be afraid until you stop breathing. After that it will be like you never existed.
00:00-17:51/ Meaning
17:52-27:00/ Quality
27:01-00:00/ Death, suicide & questions
Let's assume people stop having children and humanity goes extinct -- but then intelligent life will likely evolve again from the life that still survives on earth. Those new beings will again have to go through immense suffering just like our ancestors have, only to reach the level of our current civilization (which has relatively much lower levels of suffering compared to the past). So there could actually be a moral imperative to better or preserve the current human condition to prevent this from happening, contrary to Benatar's position.
Yours is the ONLY logical intelligent MATHEMATICALLY COMPUTABLE objection to AN.
You are the ONLY person other than myself who has thought this.
THAT SAID, I still push to outlaw breeding children, because I know some will still slip through the cracks of the law.
it probably won't be hard in the not to distance future to make earth uninhabitable for any life form.
The biosphere is dying now, Scientists are saying humans will be extinct in less then 50 years, so the whole argument is moot, humans are on the way out.
@Dark Caesar My computer is messed at the moment, I shot the monitor out with a bb gun so I got 3/4 of a picture, I can't link a bunch of studies due to the video issues, however check guy mcpherson, Paul Beckwith, Michael Mann, there are many, use google it is your friend, we probaly have much less then 50 years probaly less then 10.
I'm afraid you don't know that at all. Our kind of consciousness might never arise again
This is a Godless conversation!
God is a cun...t...
@@cjalisyas If only he existed...
It’s also a kale less conversation.
God died about 200 years ago
This is a disease of Godlessness.
These calls are a fucking disaster.
"This is a godless conversation" okay lady, if you want to prove a gods existence then we can start bringing spiritual/ god given meaning into the conversation. But until then no thanks. And 2nd the most pessimistic philosopher ever, Mainländer, belived that god killed itself and that as a part of god ourselves we are drawn to suicide/ to fulfill gods will.
So bringing god into the conversation doesn't even mean it gets any less negative.
That call from Naomi was such nonsequir. "The patriarchy" is such a nonsensical term. XD
Lol
Da Patriarchie is a culture of death.
Don't antinatlists ever worry about Hell?
I did and reverted to Catholicism. 🙂
Hell is what we make for ourselves in this world.
@@solitarianihilista1454 are you sure?
@@brianw.5230 Unless my eyes are lying.
No one in heaven = Not bad
No one in hell = good
We are in hell now.