Someone had an early block that may/may not have been bad , then they did all kinds of wrong stuff to it AFTER forgetting to torque mains correctly , the block split , they told somebody they did all the right things then that somebody told the right somebody else & a legend was born , kinda like "nitrous will ONLY blow up your engine"
@@richardholdener1727 I kind of chuckle, back in the 70s to mid 80’s. You had to hang a T- bone on a 351W to give it away. The FE is dead, and the 5.0 was hot. I was informed by a troll that an FE can’t take a turbo. I told him like you’ve said. Any engine properly built is a boost engine. I can’t understand these myths, just because he had never seem a turbocharged FE it can’t be done. Oh well my diabetes is worse, so he may be right.
I split a stock block (306) by running 9 consecutive 10.5x @ 127 mph passes in one night at Cecil County dragway in a 3,500lb AOD LTD with an Eaton M112 supercharger on it. I knew it was split on the drive home when giving it throttle on the highway in OD made the oil pressure go down instead of up. The only thing that held it together was the girdle on the main caps (saved me a 70+ mile towing bill) and the intake on the top. Personally, I think that if you actually race a stock block engine at 550+ hp, you'll break it sooner or later. I'm sure there are outliers, and there are many variables - my Eaton took a lot of power to drive, and that didn't help; where as a centrifugal would take less power to drive and be easier on the engine and a turbo would be easiest yet. The reality is anything over 500hp, even with a good tune, is a risk if driven hard. I now run a Dart Iron Eagle Sportsman and will likely never break it. But it is a good 60lbs heavier.
Any of you guys remember the "valley main girdle"? It was these solid iron pieces that used a longer bolt for the roller cam spider retainer and went from left to right. You drilled into these pads on the factory block that were completed horizontal. Tapped roll pins into the hole. Tied the valley together. I wonder what a factory block would do prepped with valley girdle and main girdle? I could send you my valley girdle... 🙄
Ive split many stock blocks at 600 rehp plus i have found they live longer if you stay under 6k rpms i never found the cause but went to LS motors i love 5.0 fords but 1000hp plus for short money and race it all season is the way to go these days
I think it has to do with a combination of things. One high RPM with the 50oz external balance. External balance and high RPM never really mixes well, and creates weird harmonics. With that much external weight, it causes stress towards the center of the crank at speed. The other thing I believe is the biggest contributor is people that get rev happy, and let them bounce off the rev limiter too much, and two steps. That puts a lot of stress on the bottom end.
My 2 cents, There are a lot of sharp edged stress risers on a stock block. Which I think would be the source of any cracking. And possibly the multiple shock loading of hard clutch shifts with manual transmissions.
I ran HCI,with a Vortech v2 sq. 10 lbs of boost. 306 stock block,ARP fasteners throughout,stock pistons. Made 530rwhp 520Tq. It ran 10.84 @131mph. A lot of it has to do with the tune, and rpm to keep the block from splitting. IMO. It survived a long time. But I did upgrade to a dart block for more power.
My friend's 95 GT had a turbo on it years before he got it, we ran it out of injector on a super cold night, was probably making 580 to the wheels, we had the boost turned to the gills on the little precision 64mm, the car was shuddering bad. It never blew up. He always kept 110 unleaded in it, and it had a Romac aluminum balancer on it. TFS 170's, stock cam with 1.7 rr's, typhoon intake. Car ran 104.9 in the 1/8 at around 3700ish lbs raceweight (full weight down to the sway bar and 17x10.5's, wolfe cage, 4r70w, ptk kit, 297lb driver).
Static compression is pretty high with 53cc 11r’s like 10.5 isch to 1. Where you able to run pump gas on the 306 11r combo with the torque storm blower.
On the dyno it’s fine. In the car you are on borrowed time. I’ve seen 5.0 blocks split after a few passes and I have seen some last a long time. Most of my Fox Body friends kept the boost to about 8 PSI until they could build a sportsman block.
Would love to see a comparison of the 170 185 and 205 11r heads to see not only what you gain top end but lose on bottom end as in is the 205 too much head for a mainly driven street car
I have to believe that blocks splitting along the cam tunnel are caused by detonation, either from crappy gas and too much timing, or perhaps from running way too lean.
86 blocks were famous for splitting. Think pistons rings butted at high rpm and loads trying to twist the block when seizing. Twist block + cam lateral loading + sudden momentarily piston stop= crack addict
Takeaway-Ford champion numbers are low numbers for an LS. Or put another way any LS with those numbers would be self butt kicking subject. And yet an LS with a stupid amount of power still won’t SPLIT the block, some different kind of formula for arriving at an accomplishment with ford.
I have a feeling that detonation causing bad harmonics(tune not dialed) may have had something to do with blocks splitting. We have better tuning abilities and equipment than we did even 10-12 years ago. I'm sure it can still happen, but I'm sure it's much less common. I hope because I'd like to build an sn95 to make 600+ wheel someday. I'd go aftermarket block if I had to but, I'd rather just build a junkyard block
For a little while, i was considering that roots looking supercharger set up that kenne bell made for the 5.0. i saw a used kit for sale like 2 years ago and almost bought it😔
So in reference to your other video(s), if you ran the 11R 190’s or 11R 205’s instead of the 11R 170’s the first engine (302) would’ve made even more power right? So what is the point of head manufacturers even producing a smaller head?
The 5.0 block used on fox mustangs if you compared to something a 351w or Chevy 350 has just laughably small main webbing. Shows in other areas as well. Pick up a bare 5.0 block and then a 350 and you'll feel it and see it. Also had only 4 crap head bolts at 7/16" and 2 bolt mains. The main caps would dance around at the slightest detonation (seen on teardowns) so I highly doubt they behaved well at 600hp and 6000rpm. The head bolts simply could not hold more than 550hp reliably back in the day, esp supercharged w/o intercooling. Got sick of that bs one day and drilled out a junkyard motor's head bolt holes with a hand drill and tapped it for 1/2" and dynoed it with dart heads and procharger to 16psi and never blew a hg. With better tuning and intercooled boost they prob would last a little longer but honestly a 351w is *much* better idea to invest in. Much better block 50 more cubes and 1/2" head bolt holes. Just a diff acc bracket, mounts and headers to shoe into a Mustang....well worth it imo unless you can spring for a dart block etc.
DRILLING OUT 5.0L BLOCKS TO ACCEPT 1/2 HEAD STUDS CURES NOTHING. THE DECK THICKNESS IS THE ISSUE-MADE WORSE (MEANING GREATER DISTORTION) WITH LARGER HEAD STUDS.
Not recommending it for 302s, re distortion of cyl bore thus the junkyard motor comment. But my small sample size testing revealed several SC 302 blowing HGs with stock bolts and my 1/2" junkyard motor with 16psi and similar combos never did. The point is 7/16" bolts x4 per bore are hopeless at 550+ hp. Go 351w or sportsman w 1/2".
Could you please build a SBC 305 for 14:1 compression? I really want to build one for my work truck so that I could run E85 in the most efficient way possible. I can't keep paying $5.00/gal. for diesel. In theory, the stroke should help with torque and the smaller displacement should help with fuel economy. I'm betting there are a lot of guys out there like me just looking to keep our costs low for bidding work. Thank you for your excellent content.
E85 will not be good for fuel economy. Much richer fuel mixture required vs gas. Diesel is really hard to beat for economy in a truck. Ive seen double mileage between a similar has vs diesel and the diesel performance destroyed the gas.
@@dbjunior1238 Did you miss the part where I said diesel is $5.00 a gallon? That's twice as much as E85 and the engine is far less complex and therefore cheaper to fleet maintain. I think you missed my point entirely. Dogma.
@@middleclassthrash did you miss the part where E85 has 1/3 the energy density of diesel, meaning you need $7.50 of E85 to make similar power as $5.00 of diesel. Do you wonder why 99.9% of tractor trailers are diesel ? They deliver the best efficiency of fuel, despite diesels higher cost.
It looks like the impeller on the supercharger you showed during the 347 build has chipped blades. I hear where 5.0 guys say building a 347 with stock heads and cam is a waste. Compared to the stock 302 it still gains 45 horsepower and around 60 lb/ft torque! That would be SO much fun stoplight to stoplight!
Block splitting myth : - balancing - volume per cylinder - tuner is biggest key to longevity 8-15 lbs will not split a block unless you hammering the combination every traffic light and track weekends
Like any failure there are multiple factors, However IMO 90% of the time it’s operator error of some sort or operator judgement. I am not a 8.2 deck ford guy, I don’t have a ton of experience with them HOWEVER I have a friend who runs a stock block 331 turbo drag Fox who has been running same Block for 15 yrs and he has had zero issues. He has gone as fast as 10 teens for many yrs now.
Have a question, what spark plugs was used on that first combo and what was the plugs gapped at? My motor is very similar setup and looked like dyno showed my 14lbs of boost was possibly blowing the spark out when plugs are gapped at .035. Past 5300rpm power was falling and line on Graff was jagged.
@@richardholdener1727 i want to up my power with a charger, but im 10&1/2 to 1 comp now, so im on 93 octane also, so guess im just .axed out on this gas
Yes Mr Squirrel 🐿️, And as well, small objects slamming into Dimorphos. I am extremely well informed, and it looked like Wyle. E. Coyote. Why? FoMoCo did space consultant work. A dropped or slingshot launch of , say, an ACME anvil could have taken out a RoadRunner, but it would have recoiled and taken out the Ford block, probably at 501 HP. Just my, ahem, opinion....
@@jeffrykopis5468 ^-------That Uncle squirrel fella, he is more positive than a lightning bolt, and more caring than a criter with a family to feed. For those who don't get Uncle Squirrel 🐿️, he's a real person, with a real interest in hard core engines and he's a dynamic guy who isn't nuts. Happy 4 th year on the Net, and happy 2nd year under your new User name. Subscribe, Share and Like the Squirrel Meister if you care about community and being a conscious improvement to Human Kind. You have my Critter- Cool Acclaim, Uncle squirrel...You're not alone...
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Someone had an early block that may/may not have been bad , then they did all kinds of wrong stuff to it AFTER forgetting to torque mains correctly , the block split , they told somebody they did all the right things then that somebody told the right somebody else & a legend was born , kinda like "nitrous will ONLY blow up your engine"
we have split blocks, so it's more than a 1 time myth
@@richardholdener1727 At what power level did you split them, and did you find the cause?
@@richardholdener1727 I kind of chuckle, back in the 70s to mid 80’s. You had to hang a T- bone on a 351W to give it away. The FE is dead, and the 5.0 was hot. I was informed by a troll that an FE can’t take a turbo. I told him like you’ve said. Any engine properly built is a boost engine. I can’t understand these myths, just because he had never seem a turbocharged FE it can’t be done. Oh well my diabetes is worse, so he may be right.
@@jeffrykopis5468 I know it was at the track testing with a big turbo
I split a stock block (306) by running 9 consecutive 10.5x @ 127 mph passes in one night at Cecil County dragway in a 3,500lb AOD LTD with an Eaton M112 supercharger on it. I knew it was split on the drive home when giving it throttle on the highway in OD made the oil pressure go down instead of up. The only thing that held it together was the girdle on the main caps (saved me a 70+ mile towing bill) and the intake on the top. Personally, I think that if you actually race a stock block engine at 550+ hp, you'll break it sooner or later. I'm sure there are outliers, and there are many variables - my Eaton took a lot of power to drive, and that didn't help; where as a centrifugal would take less power to drive and be easier on the engine and a turbo would be easiest yet. The reality is anything over 500hp, even with a good tune, is a risk if driven hard. I now run a Dart Iron Eagle Sportsman and will likely never break it. But it is a good 60lbs heavier.
The impeller on the blower @8:29 has seen better days.
I was thinking the same thing
Any of you guys remember the "valley main girdle"? It was these solid iron pieces that used a longer bolt for the roller cam spider retainer and went from left to right. You drilled into these pads on the factory block that were completed horizontal. Tapped roll pins into the hole. Tied the valley together. I wonder what a factory block would do prepped with valley girdle and main girdle? I could send you my valley girdle... 🙄
horsepower sales
It does nothing for strenth, bolts are small and not enough bolts
Project stock bottom end is a prime example of these little fords being able to make serious power reliably on all stock bottom end
Hell yea he made over 900hp for years before bending a rod
Ive split many stock blocks at 600 rehp plus i have found they live longer if you stay under 6k rpms i never found the cause but went to LS motors i love 5.0 fords but 1000hp plus for short money and race it all season is the way to go these days
I think it has to do with a combination of things. One high RPM with the 50oz external balance. External balance and high RPM never really mixes well, and creates weird harmonics. With that much external weight, it causes stress towards the center of the crank at speed. The other thing I believe is the biggest contributor is people that get rev happy, and let them bounce off the rev limiter too much, and two steps. That puts a lot of stress on the bottom end.
My 2 cents, There are a lot of sharp edged stress risers on a stock block. Which I think would be the source of any cracking. And possibly the multiple shock loading of hard clutch shifts with manual transmissions.
I ran HCI,with a Vortech v2 sq. 10 lbs of boost. 306 stock block,ARP fasteners throughout,stock pistons. Made 530rwhp 520Tq. It ran 10.84 @131mph. A lot of it has to do with the tune, and rpm to keep the block from splitting. IMO. It survived a long time. But I did upgrade to a dart block for more power.
If it was a 306, then it wasn’t stock pistons since it would have been .030 over at that point.
Ah yes . Aftermarket TRW forged pistons. But stock balanced rods and heat treated stock crank. Been so long ago I’d forgotten.
Detonation and wore out balancer are major factors in cracking the thin casting just above the main bolts
My friend's 95 GT had a turbo on it years before he got it, we ran it out of injector on a super cold night, was probably making 580 to the wheels, we had the boost turned to the gills on the little precision 64mm, the car was shuddering bad. It never blew up. He always kept 110 unleaded in it, and it had a Romac aluminum balancer on it. TFS 170's, stock cam with 1.7 rr's, typhoon intake. Car ran 104.9 in the 1/8 at around 3700ish lbs raceweight (full weight down to the sway bar and 17x10.5's, wolfe cage, 4r70w, ptk kit, 297lb driver).
Thank you for the sbf content
Static compression is pretty high with 53cc 11r’s like 10.5 isch to 1. Where you able to run pump gas on the 306 11r combo with the torque storm blower.
we ran a mix of 100 and 91
Owch what happened to the impeller? Thanks for all your vids and sharing info, learn a lot watching
On the dyno it’s fine. In the car you are on borrowed time. I’ve seen 5.0 blocks split after a few passes and I have seen some last a long time. Most of my Fox Body friends kept the boost to about 8 PSI until they could build a sportsman block.
Would love to see a comparison of the 170 185 and 205 11r heads to see not only what you gain top end but lose on bottom end as in is the 205 too much head for a mainly driven street car
I doubt you would lose much if any
I have to believe that blocks splitting along the cam tunnel are caused by detonation, either from crappy gas and too much timing, or perhaps from running way too lean.
If that were the case, the 93-95 hyper pistons would be smoked before the block, but generally they are intact when you split one.
86 blocks were famous for splitting. Think pistons rings butted at high rpm and loads trying to twist the block when seizing. Twist block + cam lateral loading + sudden momentarily piston stop= crack addict
we need a comparison from e50 to e85
e50 isn’t corrosive, one can run smaller injectors, standard lines etc
(what about 50/50 mix-Ethanol and pump)
Takeaway-Ford champion numbers are low numbers for an LS.
Or put another way any LS with those numbers would be self butt kicking subject.
And yet an LS with a stupid amount of power still won’t SPLIT the block, some different kind of formula for arriving at an accomplishment with ford.
I have a feeling that detonation causing bad harmonics(tune not dialed) may have had something to do with blocks splitting. We have better tuning abilities and equipment than we did even 10-12 years ago. I'm sure it can still happen, but I'm sure it's much less common. I hope because I'd like to build an sn95 to make 600+ wheel someday. I'd go aftermarket block if I had to but, I'd rather just build a junkyard block
great video rich. thanks for posting!!
For a little while, i was considering that roots looking supercharger set up that kenne bell made for the 5.0. i saw a used kit for sale like 2 years ago and almost bought it😔
JUNK
So in reference to your other video(s), if you ran the 11R 190’s or 11R 205’s instead of the 11R 170’s the first engine (302) would’ve made even more power right? So what is the point of head manufacturers even producing a smaller head?
I think it was just a five o blocks Ford tried to cast them lighter and they just weren't strong enough
Rpm/ harmonics kill stuff . Also lugging and improper driveline gear ratios stresses the two bolt caps.
Amazing what you can get out of a 302 pushrod. Hopefully I can get more than 300 😂
I've cracked a 5.0 block but I suspect there was a lot of core shift
The 5.0 block used on fox mustangs if you compared to something a 351w or Chevy 350 has just laughably small main webbing. Shows in other areas as well. Pick up a bare 5.0 block and then a 350 and you'll feel it and see it. Also had only 4 crap head bolts at 7/16" and 2 bolt mains. The main caps would dance around at the slightest detonation (seen on teardowns) so I highly doubt they behaved well at 600hp and 6000rpm.
The head bolts simply could not hold more than 550hp reliably back in the day, esp supercharged w/o intercooling. Got sick of that bs one day and drilled out a junkyard motor's head bolt holes with a hand drill and tapped it for 1/2" and dynoed it with dart heads and procharger to 16psi and never blew a hg.
With better tuning and intercooled boost they prob would last a little longer but honestly a 351w is *much* better idea to invest in. Much better block 50 more cubes and 1/2" head bolt holes. Just a diff acc bracket, mounts and headers to shoe into a Mustang....well worth it imo unless you can spring for a dart block etc.
DRILLING OUT 5.0L BLOCKS TO ACCEPT 1/2 HEAD STUDS CURES NOTHING. THE DECK THICKNESS IS THE ISSUE-MADE WORSE (MEANING GREATER DISTORTION) WITH LARGER HEAD STUDS.
Not recommending it for 302s, re distortion of cyl bore thus the junkyard motor comment. But my small sample size testing revealed several SC 302 blowing HGs with stock bolts and my 1/2" junkyard motor with 16psi and similar combos never did. The point is 7/16" bolts x4 per bore are hopeless at 550+ hp. Go 351w or sportsman w 1/2".
Could you please build a SBC 305 for 14:1 compression? I really want to build one for my work truck so that I could run E85 in the most efficient way possible. I can't keep paying $5.00/gal. for diesel. In theory, the stroke should help with torque and the smaller displacement should help with fuel economy. I'm betting there are a lot of guys out there like me just looking to keep our costs low for bidding work. Thank you for your excellent content.
A 305 build would be cool!
E85 will not be good for fuel economy. Much richer fuel mixture required vs gas. Diesel is really hard to beat for economy in a truck. Ive seen double mileage between a similar has vs diesel and the diesel performance destroyed the gas.
Engine masters did a305 on some spray to see how much to blow it up. Little engine was impressive.
@@dbjunior1238 Did you miss the part where I said diesel is $5.00 a gallon? That's twice as much as E85 and the engine is far less complex and therefore cheaper to fleet maintain. I think you missed my point entirely. Dogma.
@@middleclassthrash did you miss the part where E85 has 1/3 the energy density of diesel, meaning you need $7.50 of E85 to make similar power as $5.00 of diesel. Do you wonder why 99.9% of tractor trailers are diesel ? They deliver the best efficiency of fuel, despite diesels higher cost.
Can you provide the part numbers for the heads and can you referenced regarding the 5.0L build? The non 347
I wonder what would a coyote 5.0 would do as a
347 stroker with boost
It looks like the impeller on the supercharger you showed during the 347 build has chipped blades.
I hear where 5.0 guys say building a 347 with stock heads and cam is a waste. Compared to the stock 302 it still gains 45 horsepower and around 60 lb/ft torque! That would be SO much fun stoplight to stoplight!
there was damage during the test (that was a paxton)
Block splitting myth :
- balancing
- volume per cylinder
- tuner is biggest key to longevity
8-15 lbs will not split a block unless you hammering the combination every traffic light and track weekends
8-15 IS QUITE A RANGE
Most likely the tuneup splits the block the ding dong with the laptop or boost controller just my opinion
Nice 👍
What CC were the TFS 11r 170 CNC heads on the stock shortblock? 53cc or 63cc?
not sure
What would recommend? Stock shortblock, TFS stage 2 camshaft, TFS 11r 170 heads, Holley intake and a Vortech S-trim.
Like any failure there are multiple factors, However IMO 90% of the time it’s operator error of some sort or operator judgement.
I am not a 8.2 deck ford guy, I don’t have a ton of experience with them HOWEVER I have a friend who runs a stock block 331 turbo drag Fox who has been running same Block for 15 yrs and he has had zero issues. He has gone as fast as 10 teens for many yrs now.
Was the 302 in the test with stock pistons? Is there any reinforcement/bracing for the 302 block?
cast pistons no reinforcements
Have a question, what spark plugs was used on that first combo and what was the plugs gapped at? My motor is very similar setup and looked like dyno showed my 14lbs of boost was possibly blowing the spark out when plugs are gapped at .035. Past 5300rpm power was falling and line on Graff was jagged.
you need .020 gap
I recently installed colder plug gapped at .025
So is the 5.8 blocks stronger than the 5.0’s?
Yes!
3V 5.4 please
What fuel did u run
100
Only thing is u dont drive a dyno
I drove my supercharged Mustang every day for 85,000 miles
@@richardholdener1727 ive drove & still drive my 347 @585 crankhp street/strip engine for 20yrs, but lots of Maintenance, plays a role in it
@@richardholdener1727 i want to up my power with a charger, but im 10&1/2 to 1 comp now, so im on 93 octane also, so guess im just .axed out on this gas
Personally I blame squirrels
Yes Mr Squirrel 🐿️, And as well, small objects slamming into Dimorphos. I am extremely well informed, and it looked like Wyle. E. Coyote. Why? FoMoCo did space consultant work. A dropped or slingshot launch of , say, an ACME anvil could have taken out a RoadRunner, but it would have recoiled and taken out the Ford block, probably at 501 HP. Just my, ahem, opinion....
Hey Woody
@@jeffrykopis5468 ^-------That Uncle squirrel fella, he is more positive than a lightning bolt, and more caring than a criter with a family to feed. For those who don't get Uncle Squirrel 🐿️, he's a real person, with a real interest in hard core engines and he's a dynamic guy who isn't nuts. Happy 4 th year on the Net, and happy 2nd year under your new User name. Subscribe, Share and Like the Squirrel Meister if you care about community and being a conscious improvement to Human Kind. You have my Critter- Cool Acclaim, Uncle squirrel...You're not alone...
@@deanstevenson6527 I know who he is. That's why I said "Hey Woody".
SQUIRRELS!!!!!!!!
Trolls!!!!!!!