My hug got tech'd. I went for a 1 grab because a 1+2 grab seemed like too much and then got whiff punished right after for going for the Knuckle touch special with a SandBlast.
This is a pretty valuable video. Coming from anime games, whiff punishing is a more difficult for me in SF since I'm used to the ata-oke-sashi triangle, where you use runs and FD breaks to set up whiff punishes instead of just like, standing still. It's harder for me to understand that you can spook people into pressing just by shimmying, I'm so used to threatening with IADs. Learning to just hang back in my optimal range and try to bait responses is super good. I think what really seperates good SF players from mediocre ones is the simple fact of knowing your opponents optimal range versus you own, and knowing how to scare them into pressing.
@@brian_cream "(1) Oki-waza means that you pre-emptively make a move - e.g. because it covers a certain space, or because it wins against certain moves. (2) Ate-waza means doing a move that will hit waiting opponents - e.g. to (dash in and) do a low hitting move (3) Sashi-kaeshi means waiting for the opponent to make a move and reacting to it. - e.g. to (dash in, fd-break [Guilty Gear mechanic for stopping forward momentum] and then) punish a whiffed move " -Machabo (from his Guilty Gear Fundamentals guide)
I mean it's essentially the same thing, no? Poke beats running in, shimmy beats poke, running in beats shimmy. Same principles if you think about it, just with less moving
No joke I was stuck in Bronze for the first week and once I started focusing on my defense I got to silver. Then I was stuck in silver for another week before realizing my spacing was terrible. I was totally ignorant of the concept. Once I added it as a conscious element to my game plan I hit gold in two days. Every piece of knowledge like this is a chance to level up. Thanks for continuing to educate Sajam. Love from a newly dedicated member of the FGC.
I understand this part of the whiff punishing game but even after inmense effort i really struggle to do it. Even in a controlled enviorment without any pressure it's almost random if i get a whiff punish or not. Practicing in footsies whiff punish mode for almost 2 hours i could not land anything.. My setup might have some considerable lag and stuff but even acounting for that i feel like i should at least be able to get whiff punishes in training mode but i can't. Hopefully some day i figure out the secret technique.
You have to be proactive in baiting them. Simply walk forward and see the range at which your opponent will use their most rewarding pokes and then walk into and out of it. There's no secret to it, it's just something that will take a long time to practice. Also be aware that many opponents will identify you trying to set them up for a whiff punish and not throw out a normal. You can walk up and throw from this or begin pressure.
A lot of whiff punishing and hit confirming when you land a stray hit is more preempting that it’ll happen based on the situation you’re in rather than raw reactions. It’s much easier to be ready to whiff punish if you’re expecting your opponent to throw out a certain button-which should happen in theory because you’re doing something to bait that specific behavior
The secret to whiff punishing is that it's really whiff baiting. Most of the crazy whiff punishes you see, including the first whiff punish in this clip on Luke, is that Chris made a very conscious effort to bait and punish that exact button, probably because he had noticed earlier that his opponent likes to use that button on reaction to punish forward movement. If Luke had done sweep there, he would have caught Chris on the walk back which tells you that Chris was betting specifically on Luke whiffing a button in that range or less. He isn't even reacting to the st. MP specifically. He just made a bet that he could bait a button that wouldn't be in range of him and pressed 5LK as soon as he saw him flinch. I haven't used the whiff punish practice in training, but since you can't really bait a computer, I am suspicious about how useful that training really is
@@SunsetSullivan i personally don't struggle as much with making the whiff happen as i struggle with whiff punishing with a worthwhile button on reaction. Right now it's really though for me to Beat patient players that leave themselves open like guile because i usually try to bait the normal and then throw a preemptive fireball which is easier to time and safer but is not really rewarding.
@@brian_creamthis was my struggle. I would do some other, less rewarding thing than try to bait them, like the fireball you mentioned. In SFV I would be in situations like the Guile whiff punish here but I'd always go for the frame trap or tick throw. This is what people are referring to when they talk about playing to improve vs playing to win. I KNEW I could attempt a throw bait there but I never tried it because I was used to the other two options. But trying the bait - whether I succeeded or failed - would've made me better. Eventually in 6 I have consciously started working on the things I need practice with in fights, rather than defaulting to what I'm good at, and it's made me much better at whiff punishing.
Genuine question- how do you do this with zangief? I have a really hard time playing gief if the other player just walks backwards and pokes when I get close. I feel like he's too slow to comfortably play reactively at that footsie range, and if the opponent just doesn't do anything overly risky I will eventually have to take a risk to get in and they can just react and punish. I try to back people into the corner and look for escape options, but I can't react to everything and people are unpredictable. It's like i'm constantly asking the opponent t questions "are you gonna jump? are you gonna DI? are you gonna throw a fireball?" and if they just don't answer me I don't know what to do.
I whiff punish with gief all the time, usually either with 5MK or LP/EX SPD. The problem you are describing is very common and it's related to mental stack. Your problem is not that gief is too slow. A lot of characters would love to a 5f move with the range and damage of spd to punish with. Your issue is mental stack. You have to realize that since you can't cover everything, you need to be making reads in neutral and standing in spots covering certain options. You can't both cover a jump and be in range to whiff punish all the time. So instead you make your peace with that and read what the opponents favorite 2 or 3 options are and be ready to deal with those. If they surprise you with something that counters that, it's not that you can't react to everything, it's that you were looking for the wrong things
Also, if your opponent is doing nothing and you don't know what to do, the answer is almost always do nothing if you have the life lead and walk forward if you don't. A bit oversimplified, but should work for you at your level
adjust your "whiff distance" to be longer. let's take gief for example since i main him your average competent gief will often poke with jabs and shorts, with the occasional MP for either long range hit confirms (standing) or a drive rush/special cancel opportunity (crouching). a few sprinkles of other things usually (i like to use mk a lot) however you'll meet the gief that's swinging for the fences with say, HP and sweep. adjust your max distance for that; at worst they throw jab at a range where it'll whiff guaranteed. at best, that's a big fist you just baited
"wild" options are usually options with a ton of risk to them. There are two real ways to beat "wild" play. 1. Punishment. If you perform well and do things to discourage wild play, then you either a) force the opponent to play more conservatively or b) defeat them outright. For example, an opponent keeps DP'ing on wakeup? Find a safejump setup and then punish their DP on wakeup with your biggest combo. Opponent keeps upbacking out of pressure? Learn a good meaty, or deliberately leave a gap so you can catch them on the way out with an anti-air or rising button. 2. Don't play into it. A huge thing that wild players tend to abuse is that they don't want to play in any way that isn't their own, and thus will try and craft situations where they are seemingly always at advantage. This means often lack critical skills to survive in situations where you refuse to play into that style and its more neutral between the two of you. For example, if you play someone who just jumps backwards the entire game, throw a fireball or score an early punish and just sit fullscreen. Eventually they will either wise up to what you're doing and try to play something else. Similarly, an overly-aggressive opponent who love to Drive Impact leaves themselves open to huge punishes if you can react to DI. If you structure your pressure around special cancel buttons and then build a gameplan around that, you can often react to and hugely punish bad DIs (Luke Example: 5HP > H Sand Blast in the corner is a pressure string. If they block it the first time, they'll likely block the second, and the third is when they'll probably wisen up. Do this string twice and wait for them to DI, then DI back and punish them heavily). Remember- you're not playing to reduce your opponent's life to zero, you're playing to *have the most health when the timer reaches zero*, which means proactive play against a wild player will scare them into making mistakes due to the threat of time out.
I've seen many higher rank players say how playing against wild players who just do whatever is even harder because they're more unpredictable. You just need to examine what they're doing and adjust your approach. Usually wild players will have tons of flaws you can exploit
My hug got whiff punished on my last date. Hopefully with these tips I’ll be able to get my confirms more consistent.
It's hard to date as a Zangief player
My hug got tech'd. I went for a 1 grab because a 1+2 grab seemed like too much and then got whiff punished right after for going for the Knuckle touch special with a SandBlast.
Sajam with a pen is too powerful
Sajam with the ESPN commentary with the line drawings!
Dude, Chris T looks huge!
What's up brother, what brings you in today?
Hey ladies! How’s it goin?
A YO
This is a pretty valuable video. Coming from anime games, whiff punishing is a more difficult for me in SF since I'm used to the ata-oke-sashi triangle, where you use runs and FD breaks to set up whiff punishes instead of just like, standing still. It's harder for me to understand that you can spook people into pressing just by shimmying, I'm so used to threatening with IADs.
Learning to just hang back in my optimal range and try to bait responses is super good. I think what really seperates good SF players from mediocre ones is the simple fact of knowing your opponents optimal range versus you own, and knowing how to scare them into pressing.
pardon my ignorance but what does ata-oke-sashi mean.
@@brian_cream "(1) Oki-waza means that you pre-emptively make a move
- e.g. because it covers a certain space, or because it wins against certain moves.
(2) Ate-waza means doing a move that will hit waiting opponents
- e.g. to (dash in and) do a low hitting move
(3) Sashi-kaeshi means waiting for the opponent to make a move and reacting to it.
- e.g. to (dash in, fd-break [Guilty Gear mechanic for stopping forward momentum] and then) punish a whiffed move
" -Machabo (from his Guilty Gear Fundamentals guide)
I mean it's essentially the same thing, no? Poke beats running in, shimmy beats poke, running in beats shimmy. Same principles if you think about it, just with less moving
@@NeoBoneGirl Yeah, it is the same thing, just with way more movement. I have to train my brain to sit still more and just chill out in SF
@@Vilinear yeah i play guilty gear and do this all the time but i never knew those were the terms.
No joke I was stuck in Bronze for the first week and once I started focusing on my defense I got to silver. Then I was stuck in silver for another week before realizing my spacing was terrible. I was totally ignorant of the concept.
Once I added it as a conscious element to my game plan I hit gold in two days. Every piece of knowledge like this is a chance to level up. Thanks for continuing to educate Sajam.
Love from a newly dedicated member of the FGC.
Update?
@ScurvyKipgeniuinly how are you iron if you’ve been playing for 2 decades
The most important part of whiff punishing is remembering to punish the whiff .
Knowing that won't help you get away from Tasty Steve's wild throw.
Me trying to apply these techniques against my ky friend:
Stun dipper:
The friggin thumbnails man 🤌
Careful Sajam. Don’t pull a John Madden with that pen
Honda guide to whiff punish: headbutt time
I understand this part of the whiff punishing game but even after inmense effort i really struggle to do it. Even in a controlled enviorment without any pressure it's almost random if i get a whiff punish or not. Practicing in footsies whiff punish mode for almost 2 hours i could not land anything.. My setup might have some considerable lag and stuff but even acounting for that i feel like i should at least be able to get whiff punishes in training mode but i can't. Hopefully some day i figure out the secret technique.
You have to be proactive in baiting them. Simply walk forward and see the range at which your opponent will use their most rewarding pokes and then walk into and out of it.
There's no secret to it, it's just something that will take a long time to practice. Also be aware that many opponents will identify you trying to set them up for a whiff punish and not throw out a normal. You can walk up and throw from this or begin pressure.
A lot of whiff punishing and hit confirming when you land a stray hit is more preempting that it’ll happen based on the situation you’re in rather than raw reactions. It’s much easier to be ready to whiff punish if you’re expecting your opponent to throw out a certain button-which should happen in theory because you’re doing something to bait that specific behavior
The secret to whiff punishing is that it's really whiff baiting. Most of the crazy whiff punishes you see, including the first whiff punish in this clip on Luke, is that Chris made a very conscious effort to bait and punish that exact button, probably because he had noticed earlier that his opponent likes to use that button on reaction to punish forward movement. If Luke had done sweep there, he would have caught Chris on the walk back which tells you that Chris was betting specifically on Luke whiffing a button in that range or less. He isn't even reacting to the st. MP specifically. He just made a bet that he could bait a button that wouldn't be in range of him and pressed 5LK as soon as he saw him flinch.
I haven't used the whiff punish practice in training, but since you can't really bait a computer, I am suspicious about how useful that training really is
@@SunsetSullivan i personally don't struggle as much with making the whiff happen as i struggle with whiff punishing with a worthwhile button on reaction. Right now it's really though for me to Beat patient players that leave themselves open like guile because i usually try to bait the normal and then throw a preemptive fireball which is easier to time and safer but is not really rewarding.
@@brian_creamthis was my struggle. I would do some other, less rewarding thing than try to bait them, like the fireball you mentioned. In SFV I would be in situations like the Guile whiff punish here but I'd always go for the frame trap or tick throw.
This is what people are referring to when they talk about playing to improve vs playing to win. I KNEW I could attempt a throw bait there but I never tried it because I was used to the other two options. But trying the bait - whether I succeeded or failed - would've made me better. Eventually in 6 I have consciously started working on the things I need practice with in fights, rather than defaulting to what I'm good at, and it's made me much better at whiff punishing.
Please do more of these
Genuine question- how do you do this with zangief? I have a really hard time playing gief if the other player just walks backwards and pokes when I get close. I feel like he's too slow to comfortably play reactively at that footsie range, and if the opponent just doesn't do anything overly risky I will eventually have to take a risk to get in and they can just react and punish. I try to back people into the corner and look for escape options, but I can't react to everything and people are unpredictable. It's like i'm constantly asking the opponent t questions "are you gonna jump? are you gonna DI? are you gonna throw a fireball?" and if they just don't answer me I don't know what to do.
I whiff punish with gief all the time, usually either with 5MK or LP/EX SPD.
The problem you are describing is very common and it's related to mental stack. Your problem is not that gief is too slow. A lot of characters would love to a 5f move with the range and damage of spd to punish with. Your issue is mental stack. You have to realize that since you can't cover everything, you need to be making reads in neutral and standing in spots covering certain options. You can't both cover a jump and be in range to whiff punish all the time. So instead you make your peace with that and read what the opponents favorite 2 or 3 options are and be ready to deal with those. If they surprise you with something that counters that, it's not that you can't react to everything, it's that you were looking for the wrong things
Also, if your opponent is doing nothing and you don't know what to do, the answer is almost always do nothing if you have the life lead and walk forward if you don't. A bit oversimplified, but should work for you at your level
@@raghavveluri9076 Thanks for the responses, I'll try my best.
If they dont answer you, they arent stopping you. If they arent stopping you, you can take more space and apply more pressure.
what if the opponents arent playing like this and are doing the more wild options.
adjust your "whiff distance" to be longer. let's take gief for example since i main him
your average competent gief will often poke with jabs and shorts, with the occasional MP for either long range hit confirms (standing) or a drive rush/special cancel opportunity (crouching). a few sprinkles of other things usually (i like to use mk a lot)
however you'll meet the gief that's swinging for the fences with say, HP and sweep. adjust your max distance for that; at worst they throw jab at a range where it'll whiff guaranteed. at best, that's a big fist you just baited
"wild" options are usually options with a ton of risk to them. There are two real ways to beat "wild" play.
1. Punishment. If you perform well and do things to discourage wild play, then you either a) force the opponent to play more conservatively or b) defeat them outright. For example, an opponent keeps DP'ing on wakeup? Find a safejump setup and then punish their DP on wakeup with your biggest combo. Opponent keeps upbacking out of pressure? Learn a good meaty, or deliberately leave a gap so you can catch them on the way out with an anti-air or rising button.
2. Don't play into it. A huge thing that wild players tend to abuse is that they don't want to play in any way that isn't their own, and thus will try and craft situations where they are seemingly always at advantage. This means often lack critical skills to survive in situations where you refuse to play into that style and its more neutral between the two of you. For example, if you play someone who just jumps backwards the entire game, throw a fireball or score an early punish and just sit fullscreen. Eventually they will either wise up to what you're doing and try to play something else. Similarly, an overly-aggressive opponent who love to Drive Impact leaves themselves open to huge punishes if you can react to DI. If you structure your pressure around special cancel buttons and then build a gameplan around that, you can often react to and hugely punish bad DIs (Luke Example: 5HP > H Sand Blast in the corner is a pressure string. If they block it the first time, they'll likely block the second, and the third is when they'll probably wisen up. Do this string twice and wait for them to DI, then DI back and punish them heavily). Remember- you're not playing to reduce your opponent's life to zero, you're playing to *have the most health when the timer reaches zero*, which means proactive play against a wild player will scare them into making mistakes due to the threat of time out.
Same thing. They're both reactive playstyles but if they're going for "wild" unsafe jump-ins or dash ins then anti-air or neutral jump punish them.
I've seen many higher rank players say how playing against wild players who just do whatever is even harder because they're more unpredictable. You just need to examine what they're doing and adjust your approach. Usually wild players will have tons of flaws you can exploit
What program do you use to draw like that?
What if my opponent only drive rushes in neutral?
Dat boi guuud
no such thing as importantx or punishx or whiffx or for or etc, cepuxuax, outx, can outx etc any nmw and any s perfect