The thing that i think pulls super back a lot are its first two arcs. When the battle of gods movie was made, it was supposed to be the end of it. A lot of things just felt rushed and unplanned
Yeah, I think a lot of the BoG power levels. Coulda been corrected if they just said Beerus was rusty from sleeping for 75m years and he simply went on to train himself back to something closer to prime. So the "70% of his power" is correct but also is quickly rectified. Freeza is equally messy, but Beerus was glazing him enough that I could believe maybe a 4 year training arc (with whatever Hyperbolic Time chamber mechanic they want) would be enough to hit SSB levels). 4 months is just silly for that scaling of power. The friends were also huge question marks, they needed a lot more to their "arcs" to justify suddenly jumping to beyond Buu powers. Especially Roshi.
@@raze2012_ well good thing the line is only in the movie and not in the anime or the manga (z movies arent canon to super (yes battle of gods and resurrection are dbz movies)) so that shouldnt be considered
After a while in super I think we truly need to just forget power levels and just believe in the power of being stronger because it’s time to be stronger
@@DrJ19999 You're confusing power levels with power scaling. Yes power levels weren't mentioned again after the Freeza Saga but the powerscaling remained consistent.
okay, headcanon for the "god in base" thing to explain the discrepancy beerus's summation was, at least, partially correct; but he was focusing on the present moment. the base form god power wore off after a while, which Beerus didn't mention IN his explanation since, well, he's not clairvoyant. thats why he has the fish
At this point SS4 Gogeta vs Base cabba feels like it critisizes dragonball's powercreep, absurdity and inconsitency when it comes to feats and powerlevels
@@biohazardbin some random ass scientist made cyborgs and androids magnitudes stronger than a galactic emperor who could casually blow up planets, powercreep has always been a thing in Dragon Ball, don't kid yourself
i mean, it's supposed to criticize supers terrible scaling, but then people actually started properly scaling gt showing how crazy it is in comparison. and then people actually started believing cabba wins...
@@ClarksonNo1Or maybe they remembered that it was mentioned that they couldn’t sense the power levels of people from other universes during the Zeno expo
@@doriancarter964 They couldn't sense that universe, not all universes. Its clear in the Vegeta Cabba fight he can sense Cabbas energy. And they can sense Jirrens and Toppos energy as well. Watch DB pls
GOKU: Becomes Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan NAPPA: What's his power level? VEGETA: Nine Decillion. NAPPA: Nine Decillion? No way that can possibly be right!
Thank you!! It is so clear that the writers didint intend goku to be god level in his base form, and with that considered things make a lil more sense! Super's scaling is still ass tho. Even tho i personally believe that Gt and Super should be relative, at least thats what the franchise wants to convey with its marketing, games, etc.
Super is mostly the reason why i think that buu saga characters are universal in power SSG would be a lot better if it was just a 1000x boost, i wish it was as easy as that
@@Guilherme-JK on two separate occassions (different methods separated by many years) I calculated SSG as 10000x (not 1000x) and I saw two other people independently come to the same rough estimate. The thing is that was an AT LEAST 10000x, I think we can rescale this video with that in mind as the lowball and and it might make sense?
As one who messes with power scaling as well for fun, I must say I never tried doing this with Super. Kudos to you man because I know how much of a headache trying to scale Super is. The numbers are not the important thing here but more like the sense you make out of it. What you said made sense in a senseless show so thanks man you have my like.
10:25 - I mean, look... I know saiyan beyond god is theoretically canon but... it's not. It can't be. It just can't be. It doesn't make any sense. So I agree, the writers just forgot about it and the rest of the show should be seen from that perspective. Not that this means the random power spikes make any sense still.
The reason power levels are inconsistent in dragon ball was Akira Toriyama came to dislike them. He's admitted to the fact that he first introduced power levels as a way to streamline the storytelling a bit but later came to find out that they were more restricting than helpful this is due to the fact that if someone's power can be boiled down to a number it becomes harder to justify how the weaker characters could defeat them. And Toriyama had to come up with way's to power up the heroes to better match an example being the zenkai boost which was brought in solely so goku and vegeta's power levels would balloon along with the new villains. Another reason for super's inconsistency is that Toriyama's original vision was the Goku and Vegeta were as strong as they were going to get. Apparrently the idea is that they're is a max power level any being can reach and after that the number doesn't increase anymore. The original vision Toriyama had was since all the character's are at max then it's back to which individual is the more skilled martial artist. This idea was even highlighted in super were Vegeta said Jiren wasn't actually that much stronger than them. Rather it was his skills at molding energy that made him so formidable So that's why power levels were dropped as Toriyama found them a better on paper idea than written in the story and he was kind of correct as other series that attempted to introduce power levels like dragon ball came to face the same issues. So the reason for the inconsistency is that Toriyama wanted Dragon ball super to return to the idea of the more SKILLED martial artist being the superior warrior rather than just who had the bigger number.
@@ZeroDim No, they were not. Super Saiyan berserk Kale beat Golden Frieza, and Gohan in base goes toe to toe with Kefla (the fusion of Kale and Caulifla)
@@digjayanatanagarakaka7045 That come from I think Toyotarou wanting to get to the manga original material as quickly I think that because a lot of the manga's early arcs just fell like he was trying to speed run through them. For all the faults the anime tournament of power had it at least tried to give each character they're moment to shine. Toyotarou version meanwhile felt more like he was trying to get through it as quickly as possible.
There comes a point in which power level numbers just stop making sense. Either everyone in the ToP had an ability to perfectly economize their power and use perfectly calculated bursts on certain attacks or the whole thing collapses. It’s like there’s a reverse escenario from FighterZ where everyone gets relatively as strong rather than weak.
1:42 Blame Toei for rushing things, barely giving Toriyama, may he rest in peace, time to hammer out the plot with Toyataro. He gave them notes and did what they could with them in order to produce and air an episode each week.
I find the power scaling makes more sense when you don't use hard numbers and go well A narrative contextualizes its power. For example SS4 Gogeta being only able to exist for about 5 minutes is a better way to contextualize on strong he is, as SSB Vegito also ran his fusion timer which is an hour the fact they where both too powerful for the magic to hold them together is easier to use. However SS3 still being a power drain in the top doesn't make sense because SSB requires perfect Ki Control which Goku should have gotten with Blue.
The power level thing is explained in one of the movies after Super, where Vegeta and Goku talk about Jiren not actually being any stronger than they are except for the Ki control he had. I don't know if this really fits with anything.
Which didnt make sense to me, cause they said his punches felt so heavy unless he just controls his ki well enough that his punches are stronger than theirs but not his power level
In my case i understand, that Jiren isnt psychically stronger that Goku and Vegeta, but instead is ki control is amazing, since was explained that you can only push you body to a point where it can't grow stronger anymore, so you need to instead train your ki to reinforce your body so it can grow even more.
The movie is in the manga continuity which massively scaled down Jiren. But a better explanation would have been that Jiren spent most of top not fighting.
I would say that Dyspo and other characters can fluctuate because they were tired during the tournament, only for their form changes to restore some stamina
Manga super is much more consistent with scaling please scale that. From memory it never had the SSJG in base statement, it never had any hints of Goku surpassing Beerus, it never had SSJ beserk kefla being equal to UI Sign Goku but rather Mystic Gohan, and it doesn't have Beast Gohan being the strongest in the universe but rather slightly stronger than MUI Goku.
I think you can explain the Tagoma thing because unlike Goku and the Z fighters who suppress themselves and have ki control, the Freeza force characters just use brute strength. That is probably what Ginyu usually deals with.
I think the reason why the tournament of power, Power Levels were inconsistent because you made the God multiplier ridiculously high because you looked at the form a power scaling perspective which imo narratively it's supposed to be SSJ God> Hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito (with God Goku being stronger by around 1.25x to 2x) and I personally believe Gohan's ultimate form doesn't work like the Super Saiyan forms and that It doesn't have a set multiplier
And you could make the argument that God is above Vegito by a larger margin due to Goku being blown away by its power but I don't think it made Goku trillions of times stronger
Remember in the TOP all characters had to control their powers to not kill themselves since they cannot kill as a rule, they may are not be absurdly stronger, and other may be absurdly strongers but had to power down themselves to not kill their opponents
24:55 in small defense of this moment, goku just got wrecked by jiren, then his own spirit bomb, then the ui omen itself, then jiren AGAIN. People mention hes not at full power right before it happens.
Here's what I think about power levels in super. It makes much more sense if things like Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue remain stagnant - because it's no longer about increasing the power but being able to use God Ki in the best way. And so any increases like Kaioken, Evolution, Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego... they can only ever be percentage based built off SSB at the least.
yeah I hadn't really thought of that but if 'ki' and 'god ki' are very separate resources then it stands to reason 'ki control' and 'god ki control' can be different things, and so their relative ratios can change.
however, there are some characters that are 'god ki level' despite not using god ki e.g. kefla and jiren, does this imply that regular 'ki control' is actually superior to 'god ki control' due to the higher variety of multipliers available to regular 'ki control'? All goku and vegeta would have to do is train one in regular ki and the other in god ki until regular ki surpassed god ki for each of them.
There's plenty of times when they get outright stronger, like how Goku goes from struggling with Hit at SSJB and needing Kaioken to match his progress despite the latter holding back, to tying with just SSJB against an all out Hit who was using all his techniques, to then reaching Hit's level with SSJG and greatly surpassing him with SSJB.
i think the best way to explain the discrepancies is that people get power ups a lot more indeterminately, and also arent trying at 100%, so they can get caught off guard or are lowballing themselves
There's also easy solutions to Goku seeming weaker than he should be which would actually fix the strength of Kefla's fusion multiplier. Simple solution is that he's been worn down by continuous fights and as such is exhausted and is not capable of using his forms at full power until he properly recovers (which obviously he doesn't get a chance to until Kefla is defeated).
I think freiza just perpetually uses a small % of his strength to utterly humiliate people he beats, and to be smarter with golden frieza. Same can be said for Goku as "mr always go all out" uses SS2 instead of going right to other stronger forns he has mastered at times. Thats my head cannon for hiw that scaling works. As for good Buu i think he has a very high ceiling but hasnt hit it. Becoming skinny Buu certainly pushed him closer but i think he can go further, but doesnt have the IQ to go further on demand and just has to bring it out in fighting. I think if MrSatan were to ever die Good Buu would easily hit something on par with mui at the minimum. Till then Good Buu is friend shaped and basically Kirby. The round happy foodie who can be pushed into destroying god on a normal Tuesday. Lastly Beerus. I think that when someone is officially appointed as a god of destruction they gain a special divine power that no one else can achieve. That power is like a fraction of Zeno's power but enables the destroyer to go do destroyer duties whenever. Its why beerus can erase zamasu from existence effortlessly when he has to. That power is reserved for official duties, the rest of his power that he uses to duel Goku and other destroyers is his actual power level. This way a destroyer can still lose and be proven weaker, but still have an ace if the time is correct. This would also apply to Zeno and the Angels as both are in roles where they have insane special powers but a vastly different xombat capability. Zeno being a small child you can drop kick and Whis being permanently MUI. As for all the in-between shit and ToP it has to be goku holding back at times randomly to conserve energy where he can. As for 18, she probably gains when 17 gains but at a fraction. Basically OG exp share.
I think the only way to make sense of the God Goku vs Kefla thing is to either assume SSG was highballed or Potara was low-balled, which unless I'm misremembering are both viable possibilities
You should also cover the power levels of the DBS manga, as a lot of things are different in it (and i think it scales power levels a bit better). In the manga they also state that Goku and Vegeta can't get Zenka Boosts anymore because they are too strong or something
If i was the writer of DBS, and had the foresight to see where the story wanted to go, I would have just made SSG a temporary power-up and not have the power added to base. That would at least then justify some characters being close to Goku's level, and let Beerus still be the strongest in Universe 7 (aside from Whis), without having to seemingly keep increasing his power level, or contradict the original 6-10-15 BOG scale.
14:21 i think it's because black could also use kaioken if black survives because when goku used instant transmission, black quickly copied it (And also goku black has goku"s body)so yea thats why goku only used kaioken when fighting fused zamasu
dino boi finally talking abt super. in brazil we have a youtuber called "orgulho sayajin" and people bothered him to talk about jelly vegeta for like a year and during the video he was raging XD
7:13 I don't think this is inconsistent. Earth warriors are more technique dependant than others, with their powers geting higher in battle for example. My take is that their training allow than to fight at a level above what their body is, while aliens (Sayans, the Frieza Force, etc) usually have stronger bodies, but just use it without going beyond like the Z warriors. So, Goku's body was relative weak compared to the level he was able to use it, while Tagoma didn't had much technique, but had a crazy strong body.
I do agree, even if arguably Cabba being as strong as regular Base Goku & Vegeta post Whis training is wonky on it's own. I don't for a second believe that it was ever the intention to have him be as strong as the god form. Still even weirder when despite some if it's faults, Resurrection F already had introduced that "base with god ki" form.
In the Goku Black arc, they literally stated that Goku and Vegeta can't Zenkai boost anymore because they already had top many, but for some reason, Zamasu in Goku's body can, even though he shouldn't
Literally the best Cabba vs ssj4 gogeta argument I’ve seen where it appeases both sides . Cabba is stronger with dumb ass super logic but if we use valuable normal logic then he is significantly weaker. It was the perfect way to handle that
I always thought an easy fix would be for the TOP would have been to make part of the tournament rules being that it averages out the power levels of all compantants. This could also explain going forward why powerlevels would be wonky, strong guys got weaker and the weaker guys got boosted as a side effect of being in the tournament.
The manga of Super has better powerscaling. Many will bring up the Roshi dodging Jiren thing to say that it's not true, but Roshi was only able to do that by using his experience to understand the concept of ultra instinct and briefly utilize it, and Jiren wasn't really fighting seriously. Now let's look at what Roshi does in his anime counterpart: he goes to full power and is actually able to push Frost back, he pushed back someone more powerful than Cell and only with his strenght, which makes no sense considering how far behind Roshi was in dbz compared to pretty much everyone else. And do we want to talk about android 17 being ssb level in the anime? Lol it makes no sense whatsoever that he was able to become so strong while mostly doing just the park ranger. In the manga he is only ssj3 level which is a lot more acceptable
Maybe it was just the english dub or the anime retcon, but I was under the impression that Goku using God Ki only added a fraction of the power to base. (He would still be red and glowing otherwise) More so it was something that increased his power ceiling. And honestly I'm not totally convinced that super Saiyan Blue should be the same strength as Super Saiyan God multiplied by Super Saiyan. But that's just personal feeling
2:49 They could retcon this so it makes sense. I view it more along the lines of a scale like the pH scale. Ex: Orange juice is a 4 but battery acid is a 2. Doesn't mean that orange juice is half as acidic as battery acid.
8:22 To be fair, I do believe that. Cuz my main issue with "god base" scaling is that there's no explaination for how could he use Super saiyan god in tournament of power. For me it's like if he already have power of god in his body then I find it inconceivable that he can stack the same multiply on top of the same form
Ive loved your videos since the first "No one understands power levels in dragon ball" video.i know that someday you will be as popular as people like Carthus Dojo and other popular dragon ball UA-camrs P.S I've been waiting for this video for awhile and it did not disappoint
30:42 the best explanation might be due to the movie being canon to the anime and manga which while both follow the same general plot have differences and as toriyama only gave the general things that would happen he would have made the movie only following his given story which iirc was knowing who fought and who won but not the how and left each team to do what every to get to that conclusion and toriyama had the last say on how the story goes
Yeah Super was so rushed after the success of the movies that both the animation and writting suffered inmensely, feels like they did it by the skin of their teeth with barely any planning. Hopefully this long hiatus in the manga helps toyotaro plan alot of the future sagas.
Honestly I hate when anime & manga try to quantify power at all, whether through power levels, in-universe character rankings, or whatever else, because it always just ends up being a lot of unnecessary time spent on details that never add up anyway. I’m honestly fine with just being told which characters I should expect to get beat and which ones to win, seeing as that’s all that stuff is ever supposed to convey anyway. Just set up my expectations and then do the actual interesting part of playing around with them, we can cut out the middleman. When watching anime I employ certain rules-“pretend any high school kids are college sophomores unless it’s actually plot-important that they’re in high school, in which case stop watching cuz one of em’s gonna moan eventually” is one. And “hear what the powerscaling means to say instead of what it is saying” is another. If x character is the #7 badass on earth with a power level of 1938294748, don’t get hung up on what they say the numbers are supposed to mean, just understand that he is going to be written to be strong enough to be an answer to problems in the story more so than other characters. Makes it easier not to have the immersion broken when next season the #2 badass with a PL of 928283729273726276 inevitably comes along and makes him fodder, because now it’s just “ok, that guy’s turn being the answer is done now.”
To defend the Genkidama Sword attack fo trunks, think of it like the Kienzan. Not that much raw power but focused to an insanely sharp edge. Krillin was able to overcome both Vegeta and Freeza's 2nd form power gaps with it. So imagine something like a genkindama version of that
Honestly, considering physics don't matter because I doubt anyone who is writing the show cares about physics apart from making things look cool...if SSJ3 Goku here is 400 Billion and Vegeta during his moment is a Trillion and is pushing Beerus, even if just a bit...I think SSG putting Goku up to 2 Trillion sounds about right, so a 5 times SSJ3 boost...which at this scale should be a massive boost...maybe SSJ3 x10 to highball it a bit, putting Goku at 4 Trillion in SSG. On top of that, imho, since Goku still needs to go SSJ to get back to being about on par with SSG after the fight, that would mean that Goku's new base would probably be around 40 Billion(or 80 Billion if using 10x). I think this is all fairly reasonable, as making Goku and Vegeta not be gazillions of times more powerful than everyone else helps with the inconsistency issue, even if not by much.
The way Goku's transformations are used narratively in Super makes it seem like SSJ1 is like 2x multiplier at best, SS Blue is like 10x being generous and SSB Kaioken maybe double that. Whenever he transforms the power bump is not being considered with the classic multipliers. He goes from "losing a bit" to "winning a bit" when powering up. Ain't gonna convince me it's growing by orders of magnitude. At some point the Base form just caught up to the super saiyan trasformations and they aren't making such a big difference. It is possible, even, that many form the transformations plateau'd at some point and the only way to really go beyond is with new stuff, allowing other chars to catch up with base.
Great video, but I was waiting for you to mention Frieza's power level for Resurrection F from an interview that stated that he might have 100 quintillion. But I guess that was just a pun joke.
In your GT video you had a low balled version and another low balled version as super baby 1 is two time base baby which is actually him in his SSJ transformations and super baby is SS2 and super baby 2 is a SS3 so a 4 times boost from super baby 1
The thing that i think pulls super back a lot are its first two arcs. When the battle of gods movie was made, it was supposed to be the end of it. A lot of things just felt rushed and unplanned
For me even buu saga wasn’t like dbz
Yeah, I think a lot of the BoG power levels. Coulda been corrected if they just said Beerus was rusty from sleeping for 75m years and he simply went on to train himself back to something closer to prime. So the "70% of his power" is correct but also is quickly rectified.
Freeza is equally messy, but Beerus was glazing him enough that I could believe maybe a 4 year training arc (with whatever Hyperbolic Time chamber mechanic they want) would be enough to hit SSB levels). 4 months is just silly for that scaling of power.
The friends were also huge question marks, they needed a lot more to their "arcs" to justify suddenly jumping to beyond Buu powers. Especially Roshi.
@@raze2012_ well good thing the line is only in the movie and not in the anime or the manga (z movies arent canon to super (yes battle of gods and resurrection are dbz movies)) so that shouldnt be considered
@@raze2012_4 months of just nearly killing soldiers that were nothing to him
After a while in super I think we truly need to just forget power levels and just believe in the power of being stronger because it’s time to be stronger
that's basically why it doesn't make any sense.
I mean power levels where already at the cell saga not a thing
@@karlluigi1987toriyama style of writing for ya
@@DrJ19999 You're confusing power levels with power scaling. Yes power levels weren't mentioned again after the Freeza Saga but the powerscaling remained consistent.
Same thing I just commented but said 400x more efficiently lol
"I am inevitable."
-Dragon Ball Super powerscaling video
okay, headcanon for the "god in base" thing to explain the discrepancy
beerus's summation was, at least, partially correct; but he was focusing on the present moment. the base form god power wore off after a while, which Beerus didn't mention IN his explanation since, well, he's not clairvoyant. thats why he has the fish
his prophecy about the ssg means nothing then? he's at least a little clairvoyant. the fish is just more so
@@tuckergrimes4189That prophecy was given to him by the oracle fish, he doesn't have clairvoyance
The problem that I have with the thumbnail is that goku is using super Sayian blue, so it would read as a power of 0
you know what, your right, I'll fix it
@@yurazah what powerlevel did it say before?
@@ElPeloXD ??
@@yurazah bro actually changed it, amasing
@@yurazah Goated youtuber
So, basically, the DBS Anime's power scaling is the most confusing bullshit ever that does whatever it wants?
yes
At this point SS4 Gogeta vs Base cabba feels like it critisizes dragonball's powercreep, absurdity and inconsitency when it comes to feats and powerlevels
If toriyama was alive he would be like
"What the actual (nice word) is going on?"
*Dragon Ball Super's
@@biohazardbin some random ass scientist made cyborgs and androids magnitudes stronger than a galactic emperor who could casually blow up planets, powercreep has always been a thing in Dragon Ball, don't kid yourself
i mean, it's supposed to criticize supers terrible scaling, but then people actually started properly scaling gt showing how crazy it is in comparison. and then people actually started believing cabba wins...
@@we_be_vibiin-twitch cursed pfp and 0000.1% of Beerus power victims
remember you cant kill in the ToP, so i think with roshi people were heavily suppressing their attacks vs him, rather than him being way stronger
I said this before with the other comment, that's basically why it doesn't make any sense.
Expect why would anyone know that he is much weaker then the rest of the cast.
@@XXTacoBellLovaXX People being able to sense power level is a consistent thing throughout Db though..
Just so you know as you seem new to Dragonball.
@@ClarksonNo1Or maybe they remembered that it was mentioned that they couldn’t sense the power levels of people from other universes during the Zeno expo
@@doriancarter964 They couldn't sense that universe, not all universes.
Its clear in the Vegeta Cabba fight he can sense Cabbas energy.
And they can sense Jirrens and Toppos energy as well.
Watch DB pls
GOKU: Becomes Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan
NAPPA: What's his power level?
VEGETA: Nine Decillion.
NAPPA: Nine Decillion? No way that can possibly be right!
Once you said you could almost beat Nappa, I knew I had to sub
Thank you!! It is so clear that the writers didint intend goku to be god level in his base form, and with that considered things make a lil more sense! Super's scaling is still ass tho.
Even tho i personally believe that Gt and Super should be relative, at least thats what the franchise wants to convey with its marketing, games, etc.
Super is mostly the reason why i think that buu saga characters are universal in power
SSG would be a lot better if it was just a 1000x boost, i wish it was as easy as that
@@Guilherme-JK on two separate occassions (different methods separated by many years) I calculated SSG as 10000x (not 1000x) and I saw two other people independently come to the same rough estimate. The thing is that was an AT LEAST 10000x, I think we can rescale this video with that in mind as the lowball and and it might make sense?
@@Guilherme-JK Universal is thrown around a lot these days which is another thing that hurts scaling ?
@@MagicGonads that is the funny thing
You cant make super scaling make sense, but i think your multiplier is more accurate
As one who messes with power scaling as well for fun, I must say I never tried doing this with Super. Kudos to you man because I know how much of a headache trying to scale Super is. The numbers are not the important thing here but more like the sense you make out of it. What you said made sense in a senseless show so thanks man you have my like.
10:25 - I mean, look... I know saiyan beyond god is theoretically canon but... it's not. It can't be. It just can't be. It doesn't make any sense. So I agree, the writers just forgot about it and the rest of the show should be seen from that perspective. Not that this means the random power spikes make any sense still.
Dread it, run from it, "Power Levels in Super Don't make Sense" still arrives.
Beerus using 70% was a movie only thing, that isn’t stated in Super to be fair.
ya, but it was clearly the intention when they made the story
@@yurazahbut that's been retconned a lot.
@@he_who_has_no_namemost of that movie was
If that was to be taken seriously it has to be 70% on a logarithmic scale.
I.e. he's fighting at sextillion when his power is nonillion.
Or Beerus trained offscreen at some point.
The reason power levels are inconsistent in dragon ball was Akira Toriyama came to dislike them. He's admitted to the fact that he first introduced power levels as a way to streamline the storytelling a bit but later came to find out that they were more restricting than helpful this is due to the fact that if someone's power can be boiled down to a number it becomes harder to justify how the weaker characters could defeat them.
And Toriyama had to come up with way's to power up the heroes to better match an example being the zenkai boost which was brought in solely so goku and vegeta's power levels would balloon along with the new villains. Another reason for super's inconsistency is that Toriyama's original vision was the Goku and Vegeta were as strong as they were going to get. Apparrently the idea is that they're is a max power level any being can reach and after that the number doesn't increase anymore.
The original vision Toriyama had was since all the character's are at max then it's back to which individual is the more skilled martial artist. This idea was even highlighted in super were Vegeta said Jiren wasn't actually that much stronger than them. Rather it was his skills at molding energy that made him so formidable
So that's why power levels were dropped as Toriyama found them a better on paper idea than written in the story and he was kind of correct as other series that attempted to introduce power levels like dragon ball came to face the same issues. So the reason for the inconsistency is that Toriyama wanted Dragon ball super to return to the idea of the more SKILLED martial artist being the superior warrior rather than just who had the bigger number.
The manga is also much more consistent
Also 7DS handled power levels pretty well
@@ZeroDim No, they were not. Super Saiyan berserk Kale beat Golden Frieza, and Gohan in base goes toe to toe with Kefla (the fusion of Kale and Caulifla)
@@digjayanatanagarakaka7045 but the universe 6 tournament, Goku black arc, Moro arc, and granola arc still do.
@@digjayanatanagarakaka7045 That come from I think Toyotarou wanting to get to the manga original material as quickly I think that because a lot of the manga's early arcs just fell like he was trying to speed run through them. For all the faults the anime tournament of power had it at least tried to give each character they're moment to shine. Toyotarou version meanwhile felt more like he was trying to get through it as quickly as possible.
Let's GOOOOO, it's time to go brain death pink x20!
There comes a point in which power level numbers just stop making sense. Either everyone in the ToP had an ability to perfectly economize their power and use perfectly calculated bursts on certain attacks or the whole thing collapses. It’s like there’s a reverse escenario from FighterZ where everyone gets relatively as strong rather than weak.
1:42 Blame Toei for rushing things, barely giving Toriyama, may he rest in peace, time to hammer out the plot with Toyataro. He gave them notes and did what they could with them in order to produce and air an episode each week.
I find the power scaling makes more sense when you don't use hard numbers and go well A narrative contextualizes its power.
For example SS4 Gogeta being only able to exist for about 5 minutes is a better way to contextualize on strong he is, as SSB Vegito also ran his fusion timer which is an hour the fact they where both too powerful for the magic to hold them together is easier to use.
However SS3 still being a power drain in the top doesn't make sense because SSB requires perfect Ki Control which Goku should have gotten with Blue.
lost the oportunity to call this video "No one understand power levels in Super... not even me"
12:10 best explanation is that black was using ssj rose power in base somehow without transforming. Super is so inconsistent
I mean, he probably had a bit of God ki in base since he was a supreme kai
But lets not debate anything since you are right, DBS is inconsistent
The power level thing is explained in one of the movies after Super, where Vegeta and Goku talk about Jiren not actually being any stronger than they are except for the Ki control he had. I don't know if this really fits with anything.
Which didnt make sense to me, cause they said his punches felt so heavy unless he just controls his ki well enough that his punches are stronger than theirs but not his power level
In my case i understand, that Jiren isnt psychically stronger that Goku and Vegeta, but instead is ki control is amazing, since was explained that you can only push you body to a point where it can't grow stronger anymore, so you need to instead train your ki to reinforce your body so it can grow even more.
The movie is in the manga continuity which massively scaled down Jiren.
But a better explanation would have been that Jiren spent most of top not fighting.
@@synysterpainthis can he explained by jiren not leaking much ki, and can condense it to make his punches harder
@@bsshsnsjs but wasn't that something goku and vegeta already mastered while training with whis?
Nahh when you said roshi went from 500 to 6,000,000 in a few years, i died
I would say that Dyspo and other characters can fluctuate because they were tired during the tournament, only for their form changes to restore some stamina
I was thinking the same
Manga super is much more consistent with scaling please scale that. From memory it never had the SSJG in base statement, it never had any hints of Goku surpassing Beerus, it never had SSJ beserk kefla being equal to UI Sign Goku but rather Mystic Gohan, and it doesn't have Beast Gohan being the strongest in the universe but rather slightly stronger than MUI Goku.
I think you can explain the Tagoma thing because unlike Goku and the Z fighters who suppress themselves and have ki control, the Freeza force characters just use brute strength. That is probably what Ginyu usually deals with.
you know, i actually watched the other three videos over the course of the last two hours or so. good timing.
I think the reason why the tournament of power, Power Levels were inconsistent because you made the God multiplier ridiculously high because you looked at the form a power scaling perspective which imo narratively it's supposed to be SSJ God> Hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito (with God Goku being stronger by around 1.25x to 2x) and I personally believe Gohan's ultimate form doesn't work like the Super Saiyan forms and that It doesn't have a set multiplier
And you could make the argument that God is above Vegito by a larger margin due to Goku being blown away by its power but I don't think it made Goku trillions of times stronger
My headcanon is that Goku was talking about the supressed vegito at super saiyan 1 although there are inconsistencies in my theory
Technically speaking they aren't supposed to be going all out if they did then would have risked getting beaten by the someone who didn't
Roshi did some off camera mining 💀
Remember in the TOP all characters had to control their powers to not kill themselves since they cannot kill as a rule, they may are not be absurdly stronger, and other may be absurdly strongers but had to power down themselves to not kill their opponents
24:55 in small defense of this moment, goku just got wrecked by jiren, then his own spirit bomb, then the ui omen itself, then jiren AGAIN. People mention hes not at full power right before it happens.
Even in this video, Yurazah mentioned just moments before that Goku was already drained before fighting Caulifla and Kale in his base form.
Here's what I think about power levels in super.
It makes much more sense if things like Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue remain stagnant - because it's no longer about increasing the power but being able to use God Ki in the best way.
And so any increases like Kaioken, Evolution, Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego... they can only ever be percentage based built off SSB at the least.
yeah I hadn't really thought of that but if 'ki' and 'god ki' are very separate resources then it stands to reason 'ki control' and 'god ki control' can be different things, and so their relative ratios can change.
however, there are some characters that are 'god ki level' despite not using god ki e.g. kefla and jiren, does this imply that regular 'ki control' is actually superior to 'god ki control' due to the higher variety of multipliers available to regular 'ki control'?
All goku and vegeta would have to do is train one in regular ki and the other in god ki until regular ki surpassed god ki for each of them.
@@MagicGonads Si very much so it's how the power is managed and how they use it. Jiren, Broly, and Kefla are all good examples.
@@NotTheWheel oh and frieza
There's plenty of times when they get outright stronger, like how Goku goes from struggling with Hit at SSJB and needing Kaioken to match his progress despite the latter holding back, to tying with just SSJB against an all out Hit who was using all his techniques, to then reaching Hit's level with SSJG and greatly surpassing him with SSJB.
I think god in base should apply but only in the manga because they actually apply it a lot more
i think the best way to explain the discrepancies is that people get power ups a lot more indeterminately, and also arent trying at 100%, so they can get caught off guard or are lowballing themselves
There's also easy solutions to Goku seeming weaker than he should be which would actually fix the strength of Kefla's fusion multiplier. Simple solution is that he's been worn down by continuous fights and as such is exhausted and is not capable of using his forms at full power until he properly recovers (which obviously he doesn't get a chance to until Kefla is defeated).
Gohan was training since ROF
I think freiza just perpetually uses a small % of his strength to utterly humiliate people he beats, and to be smarter with golden frieza. Same can be said for Goku as "mr always go all out" uses SS2 instead of going right to other stronger forns he has mastered at times. Thats my head cannon for hiw that scaling works.
As for good Buu i think he has a very high ceiling but hasnt hit it. Becoming skinny Buu certainly pushed him closer but i think he can go further, but doesnt have the IQ to go further on demand and just has to bring it out in fighting. I think if MrSatan were to ever die Good Buu would easily hit something on par with mui at the minimum. Till then Good Buu is friend shaped and basically Kirby. The round happy foodie who can be pushed into destroying god on a normal Tuesday.
Lastly Beerus. I think that when someone is officially appointed as a god of destruction they gain a special divine power that no one else can achieve. That power is like a fraction of Zeno's power but enables the destroyer to go do destroyer duties whenever. Its why beerus can erase zamasu from existence effortlessly when he has to. That power is reserved for official duties, the rest of his power that he uses to duel Goku and other destroyers is his actual power level. This way a destroyer can still lose and be proven weaker, but still have an ace if the time is correct. This would also apply to Zeno and the Angels as both are in roles where they have insane special powers but a vastly different xombat capability. Zeno being a small child you can drop kick and Whis being permanently MUI.
As for all the in-between shit and ToP it has to be goku holding back at times randomly to conserve energy where he can. As for 18, she probably gains when 17 gains but at a fraction. Basically OG exp share.
I think the only way to make sense of the God Goku vs Kefla thing is to either assume SSG was highballed or Potara was low-balled, which unless I'm misremembering are both viable possibilities
A corpse party fan also a Dragonball fan? That's an insane find
This should win the Academy Award for Best Documentary Short next year.
Super feels like two action figures Fighting
Why do power scalers not use scientific notation? lol
its funnier to put the absurd number in full
Because people are bias in ways math isn't.
@@yurazah it reminds you how ludicrous power scaling in something like DB gets
i know he killed some braincells with all that math
you have no idea
The cabba thing fell victim to the telephone game. It was originally ssj2 cabba. Someone down the line changed it to base
7:44 Vegeta: "It's over nine decilion!"
0:36 in dragon balls case: the developement and emotional journey of.... 2 character.
11:09 you forgot to mention the all powerful monaka
The strongest
He survived a full power strike from hit, putting him at around Mr satan levels of power
You should also cover the power levels of the DBS manga, as a lot of things are different in it (and i think it scales power levels a bit better). In the manga they also state that Goku and Vegeta can't get Zenka Boosts anymore because they are too strong or something
If i was the writer of DBS, and had the foresight to see where the story wanted to go, I would have just made SSG a temporary power-up and not have the power added to base. That would at least then justify some characters being close to Goku's level, and let Beerus still be the strongest in Universe 7 (aside from Whis), without having to seemingly keep increasing his power level, or contradict the original 6-10-15 BOG scale.
7 minutes in and the numbers are already too big for our (my) monkey brain to comprehend
14:21 i think it's because black could also use kaioken if black survives because when goku used instant transmission, black quickly copied it (And also goku black has goku"s body)so yea thats why goku only used kaioken when fighting fused zamasu
Makes sense (a lot of people agree with you ngl)
Can't wait for the Super Dragon ball heroes part 💀
dino boi finally talking abt super. in brazil we have a youtuber called "orgulho sayajin" and people bothered him to talk about jelly vegeta for like a year and during the video he was raging XD
18:37 actually him in piccolo where training for a year since he saw how weak he was when he fought freeze
7:13 I don't think this is inconsistent. Earth warriors are more technique dependant than others, with their powers geting higher in battle for example. My take is that their training allow than to fight at a level above what their body is, while aliens (Sayans, the Frieza Force, etc) usually have stronger bodies, but just use it without going beyond like the Z warriors.
So, Goku's body was relative weak compared to the level he was able to use it, while Tagoma didn't had much technique, but had a crazy strong body.
I do agree, even if arguably Cabba being as strong as regular Base Goku & Vegeta post Whis training is wonky on it's own. I don't for a second believe that it was ever the intention to have him be as strong as the god form. Still even weirder when despite some if it's faults, Resurrection F already had introduced that "base with god ki" form.
Like the video, I cant wait for the manga version 🙏🏻🖤
In the Goku Black arc, they literally stated that Goku and Vegeta can't Zenkai boost anymore because they already had top many, but for some reason, Zamasu in Goku's body can, even though he shouldn't
Oh, it's on! Been looking forward to this one. Let's go! 😅
Literally the best Cabba vs ssj4 gogeta argument I’ve seen where it appeases both sides . Cabba is stronger with dumb ass super logic but if we use valuable normal logic then he is significantly weaker. It was the perfect way to handle that
Are you telling me
that lord Freeza
went from 530.000 to 10^15 times stronger by training for FOUR MONTHS ALL BY HIMSELF.
Talk about namecc Piccolo...
I always thought an easy fix would be for the TOP would have been to make part of the tournament rules being that it averages out the power levels of all compantants.
This could also explain going forward why powerlevels would be wonky, strong guys got weaker and the weaker guys got boosted as a side effect of being in the tournament.
I don't mind longer videos, I'd rewatch your whole series if you made it into one massive supercut :)
my god, he did the video
The manga of Super has better powerscaling. Many will bring up the Roshi dodging Jiren thing to say that it's not true, but Roshi was only able to do that by using his experience to understand the concept of ultra instinct and briefly utilize it, and Jiren wasn't really fighting seriously. Now let's look at what Roshi does in his anime counterpart: he goes to full power and is actually able to push Frost back, he pushed back someone more powerful than Cell and only with his strenght, which makes no sense considering how far behind Roshi was in dbz compared to pretty much everyone else. And do we want to talk about android 17 being ssb level in the anime? Lol it makes no sense whatsoever that he was able to become so strong while mostly doing just the park ranger. In the manga he is only ssj3 level which is a lot more acceptable
I thought that Rosai was just super Saiyan which would make it a 50 times multiplier.
Bros subscribers is his power level, bro is destroying cities
And once he reaches 1 million he will destroy the planet
You guys get to decide is Zeno fiction level
Maybe it was just the english dub or the anime retcon, but I was under the impression that Goku using God Ki only added a fraction of the power to base. (He would still be red and glowing otherwise)
More so it was something that increased his power ceiling. And honestly I'm not totally convinced that super Saiyan Blue should be the same strength as Super Saiyan God multiplied by Super Saiyan. But that's just personal feeling
2:49 They could retcon this so it makes sense. I view it more along the lines of a scale like the pH scale. Ex: Orange juice is a 4 but battery acid is a 2. Doesn't mean that orange juice is half as acidic as battery acid.
The anime, manga, and movie are different continuities
8:22 To be fair, I do believe that.
Cuz my main issue with "god base" scaling is that there's no explaination for how could he use Super saiyan god in tournament of power.
For me it's like if he already have power of god in his body then I find it inconceivable that he can stack the same multiply on top of the same form
Ive loved your videos since the first "No one understands power levels in dragon ball" video.i know that someday you will be as popular as people like Carthus Dojo and other popular dragon ball UA-camrs
P.S I've been waiting for this video for awhile and it did not disappoint
thank u!
Great video! I watched it all.
30:42 the best explanation might be due to the movie being canon to the anime and manga which while both follow the same general plot have differences and as toriyama only gave the general things that would happen he would have made the movie only following his given story which iirc was knowing who fought and who won but not the how and left each team to do what every to get to that conclusion and toriyama had the last say on how the story goes
6:21 doesn't using strong ki attacks increase your power level?
I love these videos
Yeah Super was so rushed after the success of the movies that both the animation and writting suffered inmensely, feels like they did it by the skin of their teeth with barely any planning. Hopefully this long hiatus in the manga helps toyotaro plan alot of the future sagas.
Amazing video
i love hate watching super power scaling
Honestly I hate when anime & manga try to quantify power at all, whether through power levels, in-universe character rankings, or whatever else, because it always just ends up being a lot of unnecessary time spent on details that never add up anyway. I’m honestly fine with just being told which characters I should expect to get beat and which ones to win, seeing as that’s all that stuff is ever supposed to convey anyway. Just set up my expectations and then do the actual interesting part of playing around with them, we can cut out the middleman.
When watching anime I employ certain rules-“pretend any high school kids are college sophomores unless it’s actually plot-important that they’re in high school, in which case stop watching cuz one of em’s gonna moan eventually” is one. And “hear what the powerscaling means to say instead of what it is saying” is another. If x character is the #7 badass on earth with a power level of 1938294748, don’t get hung up on what they say the numbers are supposed to mean, just understand that he is going to be written to be strong enough to be an answer to problems in the story more so than other characters. Makes it easier not to have the immersion broken when next season the #2 badass with a PL of 928283729273726276 inevitably comes along and makes him fodder, because now it’s just “ok, that guy’s turn being the answer is done now.”
To defend the Genkidama Sword attack fo trunks, think of it like the Kienzan. Not that much raw power but focused to an insanely sharp edge.
Krillin was able to overcome both Vegeta and Freeza's 2nd form power gaps with it. So imagine something like a genkindama version of that
HE FINALLY DID IT
HE GAVE ME A HEART❤ LOVE YOU 😍
Honestly, considering physics don't matter because I doubt anyone who is writing the show cares about physics apart from making things look cool...if SSJ3 Goku here is 400 Billion and Vegeta during his moment is a Trillion and is pushing Beerus, even if just a bit...I think SSG putting Goku up to 2 Trillion sounds about right, so a 5 times SSJ3 boost...which at this scale should be a massive boost...maybe SSJ3 x10 to highball it a bit, putting Goku at 4 Trillion in SSG. On top of that, imho, since Goku still needs to go SSJ to get back to being about on par with SSG after the fight, that would mean that Goku's new base would probably be around 40 Billion(or 80 Billion if using 10x). I think this is all fairly reasonable, as making Goku and Vegeta not be gazillions of times more powerful than everyone else helps with the inconsistency issue, even if not by much.
The reason why goku never used kaioken against black is simply because he'd learn it, just like he learnt instant transmission against goku.
Pretty reasonable scaling!
Crazy to think humans are capable of surpassing Namek Frieza levels
Yea it's stupid
@
Even Frieza’s own forces somehow suprpassed his Namek self
Shit makes no goddamn sense
There are no power levels in Super.
You finally did it😧
He did it
7:08 Not really because all of Tagoma's power came from his body/physical training where that is not the case for Goku and the Z fighters.
The way Goku's transformations are used narratively in Super makes it seem like SSJ1 is like 2x multiplier at best, SS Blue is like 10x being generous and SSB Kaioken maybe double that.
Whenever he transforms the power bump is not being considered with the classic multipliers. He goes from "losing a bit" to "winning a bit" when powering up. Ain't gonna convince me it's growing by orders of magnitude.
At some point the Base form just caught up to the super saiyan trasformations and they aren't making such a big difference.
It is possible, even, that many form the transformations plateau'd at some point and the only way to really go beyond is with new stuff, allowing other chars to catch up with base.
Make dragon ball super manga power levels
the manga axed the god form in base so its probably safe to ax
Well you kinda put a cap on how strong non god of destruction characters as SS4 Gogeta is on that level as conformed in the video games
Okay, now powerscale Superman.
100% agree with the god form in base retcon. Hate when people still use it
Great video, but I was waiting for you to mention Frieza's power level for Resurrection F from an interview that stated that he might have 100 quintillion. But I guess that was just a pun joke.
26:44
Didn't piccolo beat around ssj2 gohan of did I miss something?
1:20 it is consistent when you throw away the manga and anime and focus only on toriyama's writting
In your GT video you had a low balled version and another low balled version as super baby 1 is two time base baby which is actually him in his SSJ transformations and super baby is SS2 and super baby 2 is a SS3 so a 4 times boost from super baby 1
It’s finally here 🎉