Dude awesome video. Really enjoyed chatting with you at windrock last weekend. Love the dirty details and progression of the bike and seeing the entire process. Simply can't get enough. This is absolutely my favorite series on UA-cam, thanks for all the hard work putting these videos out!
I love how this program has it's own gravity, pulling in the likes of Dan, Ben, Troydon, and others who just want to see it do well. With the changes to UCI downhill dose it impact your plans for this year?
Unsprung masses are only important if the suspension is truly free to move. Very often I have disassembled suspensions and discovered that the bearings or bushings were completely blocked, or are often undersized. Other times it is the elastic element itself that is blocked.
Nice man. I'd love to see you experiment with different materials for the front end as well. I've made a couple of steel front ends for old Santa Cruz Bullit swing arms using inch and three quarter .049 wall chromoly for the down tubes. They have a great feel without looking or feeling noodley at all. I get nine and a half inches of travel and it feels great. And who wouldn't love to see a Ti and carbon DH bike?
You must be a big dude, for most folks that DT would feel very stiff and dead, relative to other ODs & wall thicknesses. 20 yrs ago in my CrMo brazing class at UBI, Ron Sutphin suggested .049 straight gauge for bombproof DT applications, tuning OD to rider weight/application. Like a Clifcat or 24 Toy application as the extreme, if you know that era's HT frames. Overbuilt. But the bigger the rider, stronger, or bigger loads on the frame -- well you'd need something that feels dead to a skinny guy like me.
Thanks for these in-depth thoughts on the rear triangle and on carbon vs aluminum. For development you can't beat the ability to TIG up a CrMo or Alu mule, fine-tuning pivot points and geometries as you go. In today's industrial market there is more facility for carbon-plastic provided you can oversee the manufacture and ensure the QA/QC are yielding what is reliable in the volumes you seek. Having Dan Roberts' experience with Scott, and the details of such oversight he witnessed, that's invaluable for working with a carbon-plastic mfr to source your triangles. Imagine if you'd had to do that QA/QC process oversight yourself. You might be 2-3 years later, many small errors corrected meantime, before you got anywhere close to what Dan helped you learn. This is a great lesson for anyone who thinks you can just sketch it on a napkin and hand that napkin to a carbon-plastic factory and get what you want, reliable enough to race on or sell commercially. It's not that simple.
Neko when you said you did back to back testing did you run it with the clock or just willy nilly?? Curious if times were the same too..?? Stoked on your IN DEPTH series and love that you put out the BTS stuff. Patiently waiting for a full testing video with plenty of smashing ;-)
One thing I would LOVE to see in your project, is a gearbox (Pinion?) drivetrain. With your setup seems possible to explore that route... Have you ever considered it @NekoMulally?
As a Moutain bike engineer (composites specialized) : If you didn't feel that much of a difference in behavior caming from the rear end (in terms of unsprung mass reduction) try a gearbox. Remove the freehob body weight, proper hub for stiffer and lighter wheel, remove the derailleur, remove the casette. And put this weight at the right location : the BB. And do back to back testing, i'm not a pro rider and i feel it so .... i guss you will be able to feel it also...😀😉 You will shift alsmost 1Kg from the rear axle to the BB... Great job man, it's always cool to see someone who's doing that you're doing with this project, please keep going !! Looking forward to meet you at world cups in France
I'm sold! Hopefully you can start selling bikes soon. You have a unique take on a proven platform that many people would support. Are we going to have a direct to consumer Frame Works enduro bike next year?
I would totally buy a DH bike from Frameworks, because this whole thing is awesome, but also because it's boost 148! I've never been keen on having 2 sets of wheels that only fit a DH bike, when I have 3 sets of boost 148 wheels already. It's just silly for someone who rides park and doesn't race.
Neko, how do you mount the bearings in aluminum? Is it a press fit with a lip so they can’t slide out one end of the hole, is it a clamp mechanism…etc? Really interested. Thanks for the great content! Rooting for you this upcoming season!
Gearbox...get rid of the whole cassette and derailleur on the back. Even as a jerry I could notice the difference in unsprung mass with that change. Also, lugged frames with off the shelf carbon tubes. Cheap as chips
Dang Neko, 800g weight drop for just the rear tri, that's insane, wonder what the difference would be doing the front in CF. As you say, even though you don't feel a massive difference, getting accurate alignment and the weight loss is more than worth it. Super smart as you explained to do the rear tri first and be able to use it across different frames and sizes. Looking forward to seeing what this year holds for you.
For overall bike dynamics the rear triangle weight savings is a much bigger factor, since it's an active part of the rear suspension system. The front triangle is just an anchor point, mechanically speaking. But it would be interesting on the front triangle weight savings, you could check out what Guerrilla Gravity investigated when they decided to switch to their resin-based frames vs prior alu tubes. I think you can also find some videos from maybe 10 - 12 yrs ago, interviewing David Turner on his challenges faced when the market shifted to carbon-plastic frames, and his considerations on tool-up costs for shifting to carbon-plastic.
Been thinking about the lack of obvious improvement from the carbon swingarm in your back-to-back ride tests. Have you tried, or thought about trying, adding the 800g you saved from the swingarm to the front triangle? Around the BB/lower down tube would be the obvious area. This could produce a much more obvious improvement in suspension performance and chassis stability.
Talking of costs when it comes to changes… Now think about the benefits of atherton bikes. Seems like making changes on these bikes are cheeper. Or maybe i‘m completley wrong🙈
The Atherton process and also Pole and the other 'boutique' brands using CNC'd bonded aluminium, they can tweak a parameter and have a new frame/component available in a matter of days vs months for carbon...
I imagine every pro downhill rider on the circuit watches these videos. They're all taking notes as they also probably want to develop their own bike.
Thank you for being so honest with your own development process, especially on camera
Great series. Love the honest feedback that's not tempered by a corporate goal. Looking forward to the rest of the series.
Looks like I am going to have to buy a 12er of Dale's Pale Ale.
Man I hope you’ll get the results you deserve next year!! All this hard work and dedication will pay off
Dude awesome video. Really enjoyed chatting with you at windrock last weekend. Love the dirty details and progression of the bike and seeing the entire process. Simply can't get enough. This is absolutely my favorite series on UA-cam, thanks for all the hard work putting these videos out!
Dale's pale ale is a classic, now i'm thirsty for beer at work, dang
I love how this program has it's own gravity, pulling in the likes of Dan, Ben, Troydon, and others who just want to see it do well. With the changes to UCI downhill dose it impact your plans for this year?
Great vid, love it when you go in depth on the technical aspect of development.
Bringing Back the Dale’s helmet, lets go!!!
Unsprung masses are only important if the suspension is truly free to move. Very often I have disassembled suspensions and discovered that the bearings or bushings were completely blocked, or are often undersized. Other times it is the elastic element itself that is blocked.
so nice to hear your explanation and honesty! thanks a lot for sharing everything.
hope you had blast in Portugal ;)
How good are this videos... So many honest insights that makes you want to go down in the garage and start mod your bike😊
These videos are so good, thanks for making them!
Nice man. I'd love to see you experiment with different materials for the front end as well. I've made a couple of steel front ends for old Santa Cruz Bullit swing arms using inch and three quarter .049 wall chromoly for the down tubes. They have a great feel without looking or feeling noodley at all. I get nine and a half inches of travel and it feels great. And who wouldn't love to see a Ti and carbon DH bike?
You must be a big dude, for most folks that DT would feel very stiff and dead, relative to other ODs & wall thicknesses. 20 yrs ago in my CrMo brazing class at UBI, Ron Sutphin suggested .049 straight gauge for bombproof DT applications, tuning OD to rider weight/application. Like a Clifcat or 24 Toy application as the extreme, if you know that era's HT frames. Overbuilt. But the bigger the rider, stronger, or bigger loads on the frame -- well you'd need something that feels dead to a skinny guy like me.
@@seanoneil277 Yes. I'm am 6'7" 2oo lbs. And yes I do know that era's HT frames. Mine's a Namaiki DSY.
Thanks for these in-depth thoughts on the rear triangle and on carbon vs aluminum. For development you can't beat the ability to TIG up a CrMo or Alu mule, fine-tuning pivot points and geometries as you go. In today's industrial market there is more facility for carbon-plastic provided you can oversee the manufacture and ensure the QA/QC are yielding what is reliable in the volumes you seek. Having Dan Roberts' experience with Scott, and the details of such oversight he witnessed, that's invaluable for working with a carbon-plastic mfr to source your triangles. Imagine if you'd had to do that QA/QC process oversight yourself. You might be 2-3 years later, many small errors corrected meantime, before you got anywhere close to what Dan helped you learn. This is a great lesson for anyone who thinks you can just sketch it on a napkin and hand that napkin to a carbon-plastic factory and get what you want, reliable enough to race on or sell commercially. It's not that simple.
Oh man, a beer sponsor? That’s literally THE DREAM!
These videos are so rad Neko!
“This rear triangle will work on a DH or Enduro bike” is this a hint?? 😮
Awesome work gotta love R and D
Stoked to see how the helmets look with that logo on em
Neko when you said you did back to back testing did you run it with the clock or just willy nilly?? Curious if times were the same too..?? Stoked on your IN DEPTH series and love that you put out the BTS stuff. Patiently waiting for a full testing video with plenty of smashing ;-)
One thing I would LOVE to see in your project, is a gearbox (Pinion?) drivetrain. With your setup seems possible to explore that route... Have you ever considered it @NekoMulally?
Spendy frame mods for the front triangle template to fit gearbox mounts rather than a ST DT BB shell cluster.
As a Moutain bike engineer (composites specialized) : If you didn't feel that much of a difference in behavior caming from the rear end (in terms of unsprung mass reduction) try a gearbox. Remove the freehob body weight, proper hub for stiffer and lighter wheel, remove the derailleur, remove the casette. And put this weight at the right location : the BB. And do back to back testing, i'm not a pro rider and i feel it so .... i guss you will be able to feel it also...😀😉 You will shift alsmost 1Kg from the rear axle to the BB... Great job man, it's always cool to see someone who's doing that you're doing with this project, please keep going !! Looking forward to meet you at world cups in France
Very interesting 👍
I'm sold! Hopefully you can start selling bikes soon. You have a unique take on a proven platform that many people would support. Are we going to have a direct to consumer Frame Works enduro bike next year?
You'll end up on a full carbon frame eventually. The stiffness to weight, absolute strength and perfect alignment just can't be beat.
I would totally buy a DH bike from Frameworks, because this whole thing is awesome, but also because it's boost 148! I've never been keen on having 2 sets of wheels that only fit a DH bike, when I have 3 sets of boost 148 wheels already. It's just silly for someone who rides park and doesn't race.
Nice. By any chance, with the lighter weight was the rebound circuit needing reworked?
Neko, how do you mount the bearings in aluminum? Is it a press fit with a lip so they can’t slide out one end of the hole, is it a clamp mechanism…etc? Really interested.
Thanks for the great content! Rooting for you this upcoming season!
Gearbox...get rid of the whole cassette and derailleur on the back. Even as a jerry I could notice the difference in unsprung mass with that change. Also, lugged frames with off the shelf carbon tubes. Cheap as chips
Dang Neko, 800g weight drop for just the rear tri, that's insane, wonder what the difference would be doing the front in CF. As you say, even though you don't feel a massive difference, getting accurate alignment and the weight loss is more than worth it. Super smart as you explained to do the rear tri first and be able to use it across different frames and sizes. Looking forward to seeing what this year holds for you.
For overall bike dynamics the rear triangle weight savings is a much bigger factor, since it's an active part of the rear suspension system. The front triangle is just an anchor point, mechanically speaking. But it would be interesting on the front triangle weight savings, you could check out what Guerrilla Gravity investigated when they decided to switch to their resin-based frames vs prior alu tubes. I think you can also find some videos from maybe 10 - 12 yrs ago, interviewing David Turner on his challenges faced when the market shifted to carbon-plastic frames, and his considerations on tool-up costs for shifting to carbon-plastic.
F.T.W. rules.
Thank-you
When I see it, I'll pick up some Ten Fidy in your name. ;-)
Been thinking about the lack of obvious improvement from the carbon swingarm in your back-to-back ride tests. Have you tried, or thought about trying, adding the 800g you saved from the swingarm to the front triangle? Around the BB/lower down tube would be the obvious area. This could produce a much more obvious improvement in suspension performance and chassis stability.
Given the time, energy, and $$$ you put into this, would you do it again knowing what you now know?
What’s the chainstay length?
less unsprung weight won't work the shock as hard, keeping the damping oil cooler for a bit longer during a run....even if it rides the same.
9:30 T700 is a Standard modulus fiber not high modulus
this this this
Talking of costs when it comes to changes… Now think about the benefits of atherton bikes. Seems like making changes on these bikes are cheeper. Or maybe i‘m completley wrong🙈
The Atherton process and also Pole and the other 'boutique' brands using CNC'd bonded aluminium, they can tweak a parameter and have a new frame/component available in a matter of days vs months for carbon...
Use Mitsubishi Carbon fiber