A document in the municipal archives of Orléans, dating to 1416, refers to arrows for proofing that have the heads dipped in wax (ffoulkes 1912: 64). Found this little gem in ''The crossbow" by Mike Loades. Page 76 where he talks about proofing.
@@ShadowDragon8685 The quoted text is "Fleches à arc empannees à cire et ferres de fers d'espreuve", from the Compt de Gilet Baudry, Arch. Mun. Orleans. Presumably the original text is in the Comptes de la forteresse, but to my knowledge none of these have ever been published. I think the translation would run roughly "Bow with arrows finished with wax and fixed with iron for proving". I'm not entirely why ffoulkes thought the bolt had copper fletchings or if the head of the bolt was necessarily dipped in wax. Without the full account it's hard to guess at the original context, and that can change the translation or interpretation.
@@Cahirable Huh! That's... _Interesting,_ but inconclusive. The text might have been referring to the _bow_ being finished with beeswax and iron? Still, it is suggestive, and in the absence of any obvious reason _to_ finish the bow with beeswax and iron, and knowing what we do about how wax improves _both_ the longevity and armor-penetration of arrowheads; it suggests that at least one if not both concerns may have been on their minds. If this weapon and ammunition were intended for long-term storage, such as to supply a garrison, then rust-prevention may have been their primary intention, with any benefits to armor penetration a happy accident, or a side benefit.
@@ShadowDragon8685 Yes, I'm not entirely sure whether "ferres" refers to the bow or the arrow, since it most commonly means "shod". This seems to fit the bow better than the arrow, but I don't know of any evidence of bows having their ends "shod" with iron or see any point to it. I agree that the wax was probably used originally for protecting the arrowheads from rust. Perhaps they did eventually realise that waxed arrowheads penetrated better than unwaxed and made sure that those used for proofing were waxed. Or perhaps the "wax" is really a wax and rosin mixture used to keep the bow in good condition. I wish the full record was published so we could have more context, because my palaeography wouldn't be up to the task even if I could get hold of the original
@@Cahirable unless I'm wrong, "Fleches à arc" means "arrows of the bow" (ie for bows, not crossbows) so maybe "bow-arrows, finished with wax and (ferres - shod? "ironed"?) with proved iron"? Please note, I'm not a french speaker, and I'm leaning heavily on your translation and the other comments. But I do speak Portuguese, which has a similar grammatical structure.
It's cool to see that your original research on waxing arrowheads is so convincing, Tod, that it's just a part of the more complete historical explanation in later vids. And thousands of people that see these demos at a famous historical castle get to learn that extra context as well. And using your kit to do it. Good job.
One has to wonder if armoury stocks of arrowheads weren't waxed simply to protect them from rust. Finding out it improved penetration would have just been a bonus.
@@greensoplenty6809 Yes and no. The penetration against gambison and maille would be reduced but the chance of infection over the next few days would be increased.
@@greensoplenty6809 Rust in and of itself doesn't significantly increase the risk of infection. We think of rusty metal as more dangerous because typically rust indicates that the object has been exposed to the environment where it potentially was contaminated. For example, if you forge a nail and then put it into a box on a shelf, the probability of tetanus contamination is almost zero, whereas if it's exposed to soil the probability goes up dramatically. The same applies to other potential pathogens. Arrowheads stored in a box in an armory may rust but that won't make them more prone to cause infection. It is true that rusty metal makes a nastier, more ragged cut and those are more prone to infection than neater cuts but you have to balance that against the reduced penetration of a rusty arrowhead.
@@itsapittie i always thought it was the rust itself that caused it but yea i know alota medical stuff is dumbed down so dont gotta explain to dummies ;)
This is a neat culmination of several of your previous videos. It is rewarding to hear you speak with authority about topics not because you researched them in a book but because you tried them out practically and saw the results.
Ah, yes, grease the shaft for increased penetration! Thanks for another great video, love the Crossbow in the background for some added dramatic effect, but unstrung, cause ofcoure it is ;) Love Dover Castle, got to visit it once, and gotta say, it is easily in my top 3 medieval castles in the world. Also, great info on the maille making with how they made the string (I had actually no clue, I just assumed blacksmith magic), as well as the usage of chissel, I had always assumed they had some sort of clippers, or similar, though a chissel makes much more sense
Found out recently that the French translation for 'meshing' in engineering programs is 'maillage' and that makes so much more sense when you look at a part and they appear to be covered in mail.
French Canadian here, Maille means link as the link in a knit or in a chain. Familiarly alone it could refer to knit or chain maille but chain mail armour is referred to as Cotte the Maille which I think cotte is old french for a tunic. The literal translation would be a Tunic of links which makes more sense then calling it a tunic of chain since they are made from individual links and not chains linked together. So calling it chain mail or Chain links armour is ok. Additionally to reinforce that Maille means link is that the links in a knit wear, in a chain and on chain mail are refereed as a Maille. French as a lot of long words made of multiple words and I have no doubt that familiarly they would have called "cotte de maille" with just "maille" to save time but I doubt it ever meant chain. BTW Until recently the french in the province of Quebec was similar to french as of the early 1800's. In regionalism we still call cars by the word for a cart : "Chars". it still survives in modern french in the word for a military tank. I have never heard any one use Maille as chain. It usually used in the singular to refer to a link even in knitting.
Note: I have edited the text to fix spelling mistakes and the syntax to make it clearer. Excuse me for any other mistakes, I'm dyslexic and french is my first language so sometimes I use french syntax in english. At least english spelling is easier then french.
@@peter4210 Chainmail is a purely invented 19th century term invented by Samuel Rush Mayrick, when he mistranslated the the Medieval French word Maillle as armour, it's his fault we then get people using terms like Plate Mail and Scale Mail. Still at least when the term chainmail is used everyone know what is being talked about so it doesn't really matter
French from France here. I agree. Maille comes from latin "medialis" which means "in the middle" and chaine comes from latin "catena". Maille is a link in a fabric and the link on a chain is a maillon. A big link.
@@vincewood657 yes I'm still confused as to why we have maille and maillon which are both acceptable for a link in a chain, I'm guessing the termination was use to distinguishe betten a big and a small link just like we use charette for a small chars
@@magratheabuilderofworlds7141 I've always thought of those terms as "plate and mail armour" and "scale and mail armour". Essentially a partial plate or scale armour with maille in the gaps (or just under everything). And for some reason I tend to spell it "mail" when in conjunction to another term (like chain mail or mail armour), and "maille" when on its own. I also think both "chain link" and "chain chain" make sense as names for it, since doubling up on a noun is one way many languages to denote plural. So from a modern perspective I don't think it matters. It's sort of like how most sword types have specific names in modern language, while they were probably referred to just "sword" in the time they were used.
Have to agree that Dover Castle is an amazing place to visit, and offers great views across the channel to France which you can see very clearly if the weather cooperates.
Someday I would really love to go to that place. Take the tour, soak up the history. See some of Tod's work in person, as well as other fabulous things as such places have. Thanks to the creator for the virtual tour, not the same as being there but really fun and informative as always.
I really liked the time team episode about this location. Even went to dover castle with my then girlfriend, now wife, to look at what they did 12 years ago.
2 роки тому
Nice to get the castle vibe through the sound of your Video
Truly, truly fascinating. Thank you. Just watched the Time Team link - I don't know which is more impressive... How you have hardly aged, or your now comfy, favourite jacket looked brand new back then! ;)
I regret so much I didn't visit Dover castle when I was in England a few years back. I simply didn't realize it's one the must see places. Who knows if there will ever be another chance...
This is the only time that I get jealous as an American and weapons enthusiast. Y’all can’t own anything dangerous (I know very restrictively they actually can have some things) over in Europe but we don’t have 500 year old castles to walk around in and feel how these things could’ve been carried and used. Wish y’all could own them as much or more as I wish we had your ability to reach back in time.
Great video, as always. But mail is also used without fabric armor underneath. It increases its protective value, but even alone it works good enough. At least in earlier periods.
I have never made wire, but I have used wire to make rings to make butted LARP mail. The upside is that you need a lot fewer tools and no forge facility (I have made some while watching TV) The downside is that butted mail can self-disassemble when put under strain, like catching on a tree when running through the forest.
A bit late to this but when you mentioned "four through one" mail-making it reminded me of a discussion with a friend about "lorica trielicum" - a term he'd seen in regard to Roman soldiers, best guess we could arrive at was "one through six". As we were using 'butted' mail (which was primarily cosmetic) it would have been possible to have made "one through eight" which would have been approaching 'flexible steel sheet', just wondering if you've ever seen or heard of such a thing in reality?
The truly fascinating part is that the transition from flexible composite armor to rigid armor almost exactly parallels the same process that we have seen with modern ballistic armors. In that example, the mail/gambeson is analagous to layered Kevlar or Dyneema and the later plate is analagous to rigid ceramic/polyethylene plates, with intermediate forms between those transitions involving both hard and soft armor as well as persistent use of less protective flexible armor for lower threat environments (i.e. soldiers rarely bother with soft armor, but police officers often find that flexible armor is sufficient and more comfortable). An entire design process was recapitulated across two radically different threat types and materials science environments.
I would love to see a video on medieval wire drawing. That is a process I can't figure out by just thinking on it, and I think it would be very entertaining.
@@MonkeyJedi99 thered a book called "Complete Metalsmith" by Tim McCreight that actually goes through the process of using a draw plate (and making one) along with just a poop ton of other info! It's a great book! 300 pages of info ant techniques
@@FluidForgeBlacksmithing Interesting. The book has a mix of reviews, and even some of the most positive state that it is mostly an overview work. Myself, I want to SEE the process, which is why I would like a video of it being done. I have seen modern wire drawing on How It's Made, and I want to know how it is done more manually.
@@MonkeyJedi99 I like it because it's got a ton of topics, and is a great jumping off point to really get into the rabbit hole of ideas I hadn't even realized were a thing, but agreed, acutally seeing things is fantastic
Thanks for the great demo. Presenting it on location really seems to give a sense of reference as well. (P.S. Personal opinion, but I agree that they might have used beeswax too.)
Its pretty easy to get wax on the head even if you don't know about what it does to penetration. I believe they would wax their bows and arrows to protect them from water. Its probably not to far fetched to assume that if they protect the wood that way, they might also apply some of it to the arrow head to protect it from rusting :)
I swear that every time I get excited in something and start looking into it, you put out a video on it within a week. :D So with that in mind, I know this might be a bit far from your usual fare, but if it was within your powers, could you make a video on medieval smiths' tools and workshops, perhaps their place in culture of the time? I am currently researching early medieval anvils, since I have gotten my grubby mitts on right about a kilo of meteoric iron, which I intend to process as if it was bloomery iron, and then carburise it, and make it back into a little flatbar (I expect ~10% yield), to use as a face of a medieval anvil - as I always dreamt of forging starmetal, but now that I have it, it feels too precious to make into a single axe's bit, and made into an anvil, in a way, everything forged on it shall come from a meteorite! :D I would be most grateful if you could point me at some resource on medieval anvils, particularily past "the viking age", as I am currently browsing through several books (in five languages!) on those, but I have none for past 1066. Fantastic little video, and if my travels take me that way, I'd gladly visit, cheers!
Dover Castle is the biggest in the UK and is absolutely hard as nails. It's often overlooked on lists of the UK's most important castles etc. It's situated on a steep hill/cliff so in every instance you'd be fighting a literal uphill battle and massively outranged. Even the inner walls and keep alone are larger than many Castle complexes in entirety. The outer walls would have been even bigger without the various modifications made in the Napoleonic era. It's an example (rather like the Tower of London and Corfe Castle) of a truly monumental defensive endeavour - not designed to be pretty or as a rich man's folly, but to defend the vital town of Dover and make it harder to invade via the Kent coast. Anyone visiting Dover should also head across to the opposite (west) hill and visit the Bluff Redoubt, a monumental series of Napoleonic fortifications and bastions tens of feet thick.
I'd have thought being the most invadable town from France, Dover castle should have a higher profile as a key defence location and building. As his previous video shows, the ultimate lookout location for invasion.
I think its possible that because our ancestors would have basically always waxed or greased their arrow heads, they may never have noticed that it had such an impact on penetration. Its also possible that they made the same observations, but drew different conclusions. Being ubiquitous leads to the assumption of common knowledge, so you get instructions like "blackened in the usual way" for example.
French man here. A quick word on chain mail. Maille means link and comes from the latin "medialis" (in the middle). Chaine means chain and comes from the latin "catena". The pieces of a chain are called "maillons" (big links) and we talk about "les maillons d'une chaine" (the links of a chain)
Tod, I'm interested on your thoughts about evidence that maille wasn't typically worn with a quilted/padded undergarment prior to the late 13th century. From what I've heard, during the early middle ages up to the mid-13th century, gambesons and maille weren't typically paired. A gambeson as a padded garment would be worn as stand-alone armor. There are references to "aketons" from before then but there is little in the matter of how they were constructed. I've heard at that period they might've been little more than a garment made from a stout fabric like a thick felt. And there is also conflicting info about whether or not they were primarily for comfort and fit; padding only being a secondary intention. "Aketon" and "gambeson" have largely become synonymous words in the modern tongue which doesn't help. Interestingly enough I have seen evidence of some sort of sleeveless (or with very short, dagged sleeves) padded "gambeson" being worn *over* the maille in the middle of the 13th century. It seems to have a similar construction and look to a sleeveless surcoat. But for me that only seems to cast more doubt on the gambeson under maille because wearing two garments like that seems excessive to me. This was initially brought to my attention when I was casually browsing manuscript miniatures, (as one does) and noticed that most depictions of maille from that period are extremely close-fitting; almost too close for a possible concealed gambeson. There are also a few depictions of hauberks being removed in the morgan bible that show nothing more than the long tunic underneath manuscriptminiatures.com/4673/8003. Of course they do show the padding on top of the head for the helmet which makes it strange that they would omit the padded garment on the rest of the body. All of this eventually led me to several interesting threads on myarmoury that discussed this very subject. myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.34802.html myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.34599.html myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.30715.html Anyways, I'm planning a late 12th early 13th century knightly kit and this has got me worried about whether or not I should be wearing a full-blown gambeson underneath my hauberk as many seem to automatically assume. It seems logical at first but this has given me doubts.
The Greeks & Romans did wear padding often under armour. It was one of the items illustrated in late Roman armament factories. So it's not like it was only discovered in the C13th. Kings/chiefs' hearth troops would've been well equipped, experienced & trained warriors. So I'd have thought they'd soon find out how mail alone had big drawbacks IF(& that's a big if) they were ignorant of padding. It's hard to see how that knowlage/basic armour best practice/warcraft could become lost when service in late Roman armies was a common thing for Germanic tribes, many Germanic successor kingdoms inherited the factories & skilled workers or would indeed find it self-evident that you needed something under the mail in practice. Akhetons are from the Arabic word for cotton, the Arabic/Saracen world used Akhetons quite widely & it remained in use by the East Roman(Byzantine) armies throughout this time, so if gambesons were lost in parts of Western Europe during the early medieval era, the crusades or just Norman service in Sicily or Italy in the C11th would've passed the knowlage on to them. Even Britain's sub-Roman kings kept some contact with Byzantium after the fall of the West Roman empire.
Waxing the arrows/bolts was most likely commonly done originally to prevent them from rusting, then after they discovered how much better they penitrate they made sure they were waxed.
Some additional notes: Historically, the domed rivets were actually domed only on the exterior side, on the interior side, they'd sit mostly flush. Later on, they switched over to flat, triangualr-shaped rivets instead. The rings would be variously flattened - sometimes they were pretty much completely flat, sometimes slightly flattened (to oval-ish shape with flat sides), sometimes they were left completely circular. Either way, the ends of the rings would be flattened to accomodate the rivet. The rivet itself wouldn't be the point of failure for proper rings - they'd tear somewhere outside of the heavily flattened, riveted-through place. Possibly for this reason were the rings often being flattened, but that's just my personal theory - in my mind, the flatter the rings, the more stab protection, but the less cut protection from something like a dane axe. For you to be able to flatten and punch-through the rings, you might need to anneal them. They'd also often use a technique of producing flat rings by punching a hole into the midle of a small, circular plate of metal. Such a ring wouldn't need riveting, which speeds up the process significantly, as then you need only half of the rings to be riveted. Also, in order to cut the spring into individual rings, you can use cutting pliers with a tooth filed into them, which allows you to cut the second line of the spring, skipping the first one. This allows you to keep your overlap for the area you are going to flatten and rivet-through. The ring diameter and wire diameter could be also altered throughout the armor, making it more protective but heavier and less flexible in certain areas (like around the neck), and vice versa in others (like in the armpits). The armor was also tailored to copy the owner's body line, to prevent excessive material (especially on sleeves) from slapping around, adding unwanted weight and momentum to the wearer's limbs. Finally, the material used would usually be wrought iron, in exceptional circumstances mild steel. It's possible there were heat-treated pieces, but certainly more often than not, they weren't.
A thought on maille. If you can do a lot of the prep work, how much could be done during winter when not a lot is going on? Lots of down time without a lot to do, just feeding links through.
In Cornwall/Kernow there is the Hayle River- but hayle means river in Cornish/Kernewek- River River. Fun factoid- there was a government lab or facility at Nanscuke- they may or may not have produced nerve gas etc. there. Nans- valley, cuke- death, valley death or in English/Sowsnek, Death Valley.
So they actually used to make thousands of links like that and connected each and single one of them step by step, thousands of times to get one set of maille armour? This is madness...My hands hurt just thinking about it.
@@mikegrossberg8624 I know, I just imagine doing this work and can't help but be amazed at how many hours it would take one person to make one set of maille armor.
One would hammer out the rod; the next would either do all the drawing, or there would be one doing each pass of the wire through the drawplate, and handing it on for the next draw; the next guy would wind the wire around the mandrel; another guy would cut the links, dropping them into a bucket; another would pick up the bucket, flatten the ends of each link, and drop them into another bucket; the next guy would either drop OPEN links into a bucket, or rivet them closed, and drop THOSE into yet ANOTHER bucket; the LAST guy, the maille MAKER, would assemble the open and closed links to form the armor. That was the SPEED method for maille making; the assembly line! That's why maille shirts cost like hell! Of course, not EVERY maille shirt was made like that MINE were all done by litle old me ALONE! I didn't have to MAKE the wire(thank the gods for Home Depot!). One day,, I'd sit and turn out a dozen or so coils, with a hand-cranked mandrel(tried using a power drill, but it went too fast to control easily). Next day, I'd sit cutting links. When I had a bucketful, I'd sit opening/ closing links(since I wasn't going to wear the maille into combat, and I wasn't obsessive enough to do riveting, I didn't have to worry about how strong it was, so just butted links was okay). When I had enough ready links to keep me occupied for a while, I started assembling swatches of maille; I'd make pieces about 100 by 100 links, for ease of handling. When I had enough pieces assembled, they would be joined together to form the body and sleeves . After that, it was just a matter of adding rows of links to get them to the length I wanted
@@kooroshrostami27 My last hauberk took, in actual time worked on it, about two months, from first starting to wind links to finish. Counting in all the "interruptions", work, food shop & prep, housecleaning, errands, sore hands, general abhorrence of the IDEA of the entire thing at some points, etc, about seven months
@@mikegrossberg8624 Well, although I can't possibly imagine how much work that must be, at least my imagination of hurting hands wasn't too far off then. Thanks for the extensive insight though I think it's fascinating 👍
Wondering if there could be a “lockdown longbow” equivalent for lead sling bullets? It would be interesting to see their effects on this type of armour. Also to know if they have been overrated by classical accounts?
Ooh, yeah, that could be cool. There are "ballester" crossbows, that shoot bullets, like a sling; so it would be a case of calculating the speed of a sling projectile, I guess, and then getting a crossbow with equal velocity.
Most Ancient Chinese crossbows were used to fire crossbow bolts and arrows (from bows), but some variants were made to shoot "bullets." Many of the crossbows that fired bullets were made to hunt small animals since regular crossbow that fired bolts were overkill and would cause much more damage the skin & meat. See wiki quote: "Jing Fang (78-37 BC) wrote that the moon, shaped like a ball, produced no light and was illuminated only by the sun, which he compared to the shape of a round crossbow bullet."
Slinger here. Making something that replicates the performance of a sling is not as simple as one might think. The main problem is that sling releases lead projectiles point-first + spin stabilized. The heaviest sling bullets used by the Romans in Gaul often weighed ~90g and I estimate that they would be slung at ~75m/s by expert slingers. It wouldn't go through fabric armour, but I think it could break bones underneath. Certainly any stone between 200-500g (1 mina ~ 500g, the heavy Balearic stones) will have anti-armour characteristics, due to the shear momentum behind them. The sling is much better at killing through armour than perforating it. 500g stone at 40m/s or more is a real monster (and could be achieved with a very short sling).
@@Archaic-Arms It's very interesting! I'm not sure how exactly it can be done, but I'd love to see accurate repeatable testing. It seems like the problem is the huge skill gap in becoming a good slinger. (at least as good as the ancient source would suggest). Is there anyone in the slinging community that's been able to replicate this constantly? It would be very cool to see someone at that skill level tested with various mediums. And to see what it can do to something behind the armour. Maybe a way to measure trauma that's transfered?
I can see the benefit of Mail over body parts that have to move to keep the wearer flexable but was there ever combiation suits that linked the chain mail to solid plate say in the more vital chest/abdomen area? It would add more weight but greater protection and be possibly faster to manufacture a plate over all those links?
Hello 👋 Have you read the article on the use of the « gambeson » written by Nathanael Dos reis ? It was written within the theme of his thesis on the armament (armour and weapons) of the 12th century early 13th century knight and it’s evolution.
A castle is the whole fortification complex, but the Keep is the last defence super-tower, origionally square/rectangular in floor plan. There'd be usually 2+ walls to overcome before you could try to take the keep & once inside stone ones, often also a cross-wall so the defenders could withdraw into just one half. In the earlier timber motte & bailey castles the keep was a square wooden tower like structure surrounded by its own small pallisade on top of a tall mound(the "Motte"), while the bailey was a larger pallisaded area attached closer to ground level, containing living quarters, great hall, workshops, a chapel, store rooms stables etc. Access from the bailey up to the keep was usually by a flying bridge(steps raised on timber piles) that could be demolished if the bailey was taken & the defenders withdrew to the motte & keep.
Tod, is there any sources that show the history of aketons / gambesons? I know there is discussion about roman padding, but I would love to learn more about how it was designed and how it evolved.
There's almost nothing preserved (from Europe, at least) from before 14th-15th century, so sadly there's not that much we can say for sure. Not that there's that much stuff preserved later either.
Handy little mace you've got there. I just saw a movieclip about the moscow kremlin armoury, admiring the collection there and noticed quite a loty of sceptres. I have done some research but could not find a definite answer; is a sceptre a fancy mace or a fancy wand? Or neither and I'm missing something. A type of mace with a spring action that is lethal in most countries is the ploertendoder as the dutch call it, can't find much history there either besides italians, later used by mobsters, but not much detail. Thanks for any intel.
Maille is not the chain, but a net or knitted fabric (think a knitted jumper or shawl). Maillon, a derivative of 'maille', however is link, as in a link in a chain...
You said that mail on itself isn t very good. Yet i wonder about roman legionaries, celtic wariors... and later the 'vikings'. To my knowledge they did not have real padded armour. I geuss mail on itself is better than nothing. But why wouldn t they have developed something like a gambeson? (I heard there were some gambeson like garments around in antiquity but there use does not seem to be wide-spread).
i taught myself a bit with a roll of $6 tie wire. wanted to see why they didnt make gloves, now i know, cant hold anything unless its super small rings maybe. tried to make a coif for halloween but didnt make it in time
They'd be at least semi-greased from the fur-on skin often lining the wooden scabbard for the very purpose of slowing rusting & preventing the sword from sliding out of the scabbard. Smear a bit of animal fat or olive/linseed oil in the top of the scabbard & it'll grease the blade a little every time itis drawn & scabbarded.
@NotMikasa: What type of helmets are you looking for exactly? Period? Materials? Thickness? £100 is not going to get you much. £200-£250 is a more realistic budget for a good quality basic medieval-style helmet (kettle hat for example).
Like a modern broad rimmed soft hat can be styled in any style of at least the past 2000 years, the WW1 tommy helmet can be so modified and/or decorated.
@@MontyCantsin5 im looking for a nasal helmet you know like the normans in 1066 i want one to put on a shelf and to eventually build a norman uniform or something to do with vikings
French speaker here. Chainmail isn't really a pleonasm. In French, the word "maille" means 1 of those little steel rings (or any single link of a regular chain). The better expression in English would be chainED mail. The chained part is what makes the difference between a bag of ringlets and an armor.
Modern French isn't really that relevant here, since obviously mail wasn't used much during last 300 years. In Old/Middle English, the word meant armor made out of rings, not ring or link by itself. From what I gather, same was true for Old French, from which the word was borrowed. It simply meant "mail armor", no additional descriptors.
@@lscibor Well I'm certainly not an expert in Old French, but the Old French dictionary I have uses the same definition as modern French "Chacune des boucles d'un fil textile, qui s'entrelacent pour former un tissu souple voire lâche" Roughly translated as "EACH of the links of a textile thread that interlink to create a soft, even lax, fabric."
Could anyone explain to me why mail was used more than a plate armor. To me it seems that while plate armor requires little bit more recourses, it would faster to make and it works better than mail. Anyone has any ideas?
TL;DR version: mail fits *everyone* that is small enough to get it over their torso. It hangs from the shoulders, maybe you've belted it, the mail hauberk often covers down to your thighs, one garment, one set of maintenance. Plate has to be 1) fitted to the wearer, and 2) every piece is strapped on separately. Making plate requires far more skilled armorsmithing (the wire for mail can be made by even basically trained blacksmiths) and wearing plate requires assistance to get it on and off. Not to mention, maintenance efforts. (Relevant experience: 5 years as a heavy fighter in the SCA, wearing various loaned piece of mail and plate... I *much* preferred borrowing a mail shirt, until I had enough money to buy plate pieces of my own.)
Massively more expensive, technologically much more difficult, nowhere near as easily resize or repaired, and finally the resources to make plate armor in anything but irritatingly small pieces essentially didn't exist in most places for most of History
To expand on the other replies, maille is cheaper to repair if it gets damaged. You break one link, you replace that link. You punch a hole in plate, you replace the entire piece of plate, or forge weld a patch. The quality of steel needs to be higher for plate than it does for maille, as maille is nearly as good with mild steel as it is with high carbon steel, but plate steel needs to be at least medium carbon steel or extra thick to be effective. Finally, the process of making steel in the medieval period was such that making a large enough sheet of plate was a big challenge until later in the period. For a long time, steel was created in palm size chunks, and then they would forge welded the pieces to create larger pieces and hope that there were no flaws in the welds.
Plate armor got invented during the course of 14th century in Western Europe. So before that, it couldn't be used much. ;) After 14th century, when plate got common, it quite apparently indeed was used MORE than mail. But mail never went completely out of use. It's flexible, more comfortable, breathable, easier to don, especially by oneself, can cover pretty much almost any spot on the body. and as mentioned, individual suit of mail is incredibly hard to destroy. Since in 15th and 16th century more affordable kinds of plate are generally much cheaper than mail, and yet mail never really goes away, it must have been valued for certain reasons.
Saying that maille without padding isn't enough is one of THE BEST pro, Vikings MUST have had padded armour arguments I can think of. I've heard so many people say that, because their are no Viking padded armour finds, it mean that wearing padded armour is a historical inaccurism. Despite the fact we know padded armour was in wide spread use elsewhere and long before the Viking period.
I reckon they just used thick wool Tunics. We've got to go off the evidence and unfortunately we have no evidence of gambeson type garments from that period in the area, even though it seems to be common sense from our modern perspective. If we look at extant examples of later under maille padding, it's often much thinner than most people expect too.
@@VarenRoth they would be liable to that yes, but we have clothing from the time etc. The issue is we also don't have anything in the way of depictions of under maille garments, or descriptions in accounts as far as I'm aware.
@Isaac Howell: Yes, that appears to be the case. Wearing a woollen tunic under mail was probably quite normal for those who could afford a hauberk. Very thick, padded gambesons in combination with mail, however, is still a point of contention in reenactment circles.
I assume that bee's wax was expensive then. Is it a possibility that those who shot the arrows/bolts could have used lard instead? Would the results be the same between the two? Edit: I am by no means an expert. These are a few, (among a thousand), questions I have.
Bees wax was probably easier to get in the medieval time than it is now, as beekeeping was a much more important industry in that time. Lard and tallow could be used, but they both have a lower melting point than bees wax and they both will go bad much easer than bees wax. Lard and tallow can liquify on a hot day in direct sunlight, but bees wax will not.
A
document in the municipal archives of Orléans, dating to 1416,
refers to arrows for proofing that have the heads dipped in wax
(ffoulkes 1912: 64).
Found this little gem in ''The crossbow" by Mike Loades. Page 76 where he talks about proofing.
Oh wow, that would be... _Very_ important. I'd very much like to see if someone can get their hands on that original document and translate it.
@@ShadowDragon8685
The quoted text is "Fleches à arc empannees à cire et ferres de fers d'espreuve", from the Compt de Gilet Baudry, Arch. Mun. Orleans. Presumably the original text is in the Comptes de la forteresse, but to my knowledge none of these have ever been published.
I think the translation would run roughly "Bow with arrows finished with wax and fixed with iron for proving". I'm not entirely why ffoulkes thought the bolt had copper fletchings or if the head of the bolt was necessarily dipped in wax. Without the full account it's hard to guess at the original context, and that can change the translation or interpretation.
@@Cahirable Huh! That's... _Interesting,_ but inconclusive. The text might have been referring to the _bow_ being finished with beeswax and iron?
Still, it is suggestive, and in the absence of any obvious reason _to_ finish the bow with beeswax and iron, and knowing what we do about how wax improves _both_ the longevity and armor-penetration of arrowheads; it suggests that at least one if not both concerns may have been on their minds. If this weapon and ammunition were intended for long-term storage, such as to supply a garrison, then rust-prevention may have been their primary intention, with any benefits to armor penetration a happy accident, or a side benefit.
@@ShadowDragon8685 Yes, I'm not entirely sure whether "ferres" refers to the bow or the arrow, since it most commonly means "shod". This seems to fit the bow better than the arrow, but I don't know of any evidence of bows having their ends "shod" with iron or see any point to it.
I agree that the wax was probably used originally for protecting the arrowheads from rust. Perhaps they did eventually realise that waxed arrowheads penetrated better than unwaxed and made sure that those used for proofing were waxed.
Or perhaps the "wax" is really a wax and rosin mixture used to keep the bow in good condition. I wish the full record was published so we could have more context, because my palaeography wouldn't be up to the task even if I could get hold of the original
@@Cahirable unless I'm wrong, "Fleches à arc" means "arrows of the bow" (ie for bows, not crossbows) so maybe "bow-arrows, finished with wax and (ferres - shod? "ironed"?) with proved iron"?
Please note, I'm not a french speaker, and I'm leaning heavily on your translation and the other comments. But I do speak Portuguese, which has a similar grammatical structure.
It's cool to see that your original research on waxing arrowheads is so convincing, Tod, that it's just a part of the more complete historical explanation in later vids. And thousands of people that see these demos at a famous historical castle get to learn that extra context as well. And using your kit to do it. Good job.
One has to wonder if armoury stocks of arrowheads weren't waxed simply to protect them from rust. Finding out it improved penetration would have just been a bonus.
wouldnt rust make them more deadly?
never seen a rusty vs not rusty demonstration
@@greensoplenty6809
Yes and no. The penetration against gambison and maille would be reduced but the chance of infection over the next few days would be increased.
Exactly ! The Wax came from bees, doesn’t not spoil and is long lasting.
@@greensoplenty6809 Rust in and of itself doesn't significantly increase the risk of infection. We think of rusty metal as more dangerous because typically rust indicates that the object has been exposed to the environment where it potentially was contaminated. For example, if you forge a nail and then put it into a box on a shelf, the probability of tetanus contamination is almost zero, whereas if it's exposed to soil the probability goes up dramatically. The same applies to other potential pathogens. Arrowheads stored in a box in an armory may rust but that won't make them more prone to cause infection. It is true that rusty metal makes a nastier, more ragged cut and those are more prone to infection than neater cuts but you have to balance that against the reduced penetration of a rusty arrowhead.
@@itsapittie i always thought it was the rust itself that caused it but yea i know alota medical stuff is dumbed down so dont gotta explain to dummies ;)
This is a neat culmination of several of your previous videos. It is rewarding to hear you speak with authority about topics not because you researched them in a book but because you tried them out practically and saw the results.
Tod starts a new career as a Maille Model.
Thanks for another smashing video.
Ah, yes, grease the shaft for increased penetration!
Thanks for another great video, love the Crossbow in the background for some added dramatic effect, but unstrung, cause ofcoure it is ;)
Love Dover Castle, got to visit it once, and gotta say, it is easily in my top 3 medieval castles in the world.
Also, great info on the maille making with how they made the string (I had actually no clue, I just assumed blacksmith magic), as well as the usage of chissel, I had always assumed they had some sort of clippers, or similar, though a chissel makes much more sense
Not the shaft, just the tip
That's definitely a deep conversation!
Found out recently that the French translation for 'meshing' in engineering programs is 'maillage' and that makes so much more sense when you look at a part and they appear to be covered in mail.
One of the best parts of my day is waking up and looking out my window to see Dover Castle in all its glory.
Lucky you
Crash-course is an understatement... Tod just condensed a dozen of his other videos, each 15+ minutes long, into a single, 6-minute video.
Thank you , Tod .
🐺
French Canadian here, Maille means link as the link in a knit or in a chain. Familiarly alone it could refer to knit or chain maille but chain mail armour is referred to as Cotte the Maille which I think cotte is old french for a tunic. The literal translation would be a Tunic of links which makes more sense then calling it a tunic of chain since they are made from individual links and not chains linked together. So calling it chain mail or Chain links armour is ok.
Additionally to reinforce that Maille means link is that the links in a knit wear, in a chain and on chain mail are refereed as a Maille. French as a lot of long words made of multiple words and I have no doubt that familiarly they would have called "cotte de maille" with just "maille" to save time but I doubt it ever meant chain.
BTW Until recently the french in the province of Quebec was similar to french as of the early 1800's. In regionalism we still call cars by the word for a cart : "Chars". it still survives in modern french in the word for a military tank. I have never heard any one use Maille as chain. It usually used in the singular to refer to a link even in knitting.
Note: I have edited the text to fix spelling mistakes and the syntax to make it clearer. Excuse me for any other mistakes, I'm dyslexic and french is my first language so sometimes I use french syntax in english. At least english spelling is easier then french.
@@peter4210 Chainmail is a purely invented 19th century term invented by Samuel Rush Mayrick, when he mistranslated the the Medieval French word Maillle as armour, it's his fault we then get people using terms like Plate Mail and Scale Mail. Still at least when the term chainmail is used everyone know what is being talked about so it doesn't really matter
French from France here. I agree. Maille comes from latin "medialis" which means "in the middle" and chaine comes from latin "catena".
Maille is a link in a fabric and the link on a chain is a maillon. A big link.
@@vincewood657 yes I'm still confused as to why we have maille and maillon which are both acceptable for a link in a chain, I'm guessing the termination was use to distinguishe betten a big and a small link just like we use charette for a small chars
@@magratheabuilderofworlds7141 I've always thought of those terms as "plate and mail armour" and "scale and mail armour". Essentially a partial plate or scale armour with maille in the gaps (or just under everything). And for some reason I tend to spell it "mail" when in conjunction to another term (like chain mail or mail armour), and "maille" when on its own.
I also think both "chain link" and "chain chain" make sense as names for it, since doubling up on a noun is one way many languages to denote plural. So from a modern perspective I don't think it matters. It's sort of like how most sword types have specific names in modern language, while they were probably referred to just "sword" in the time they were used.
The content quality is amazing, but Todd's charisma is unrivaled
Have to agree that Dover Castle is an amazing place to visit, and offers great views across the channel to France which you can see very clearly if the weather cooperates.
I have NEVER bought YTer's merch, always thought it was tacky. That Knight Clubbing tee is hilarious, actually will purchase.
Always a joy to watch Tod in his element.
Someday I would really love to go to that place. Take the tour, soak up the history. See some of Tod's work in person, as well as other fabulous things as such places have. Thanks to the creator for the virtual tour, not the same as being there but really fun and informative as always.
See Tod's work?- Buy one of his maces or knives from his website.
I really liked the time team episode about this location. Even went to dover castle with my then girlfriend, now wife, to look at what they did 12 years ago.
Nice to get the castle vibe through the sound of your Video
Great video, Tod, as always !
Truly, truly fascinating. Thank you. Just watched the Time Team link - I don't know which is more impressive... How you have hardly aged, or your now comfy, favourite jacket looked brand new back then! ;)
wonderful history
Thank you Tod for making this happen , Cheers from California !
I regret so much I didn't visit Dover castle when I was in England a few years back. I simply didn't realize it's one the must see places. Who knows if there will ever be another chance...
Great video sir! and a nice T-shirt as well.
It must be fun working on the exhibitions :-)Totally agree with you about Dover Castle if youre into history it should be om your bucket list.
Have been there, when I went to Ramsgate. Was a fun experience.
This is the only time that I get jealous as an American and weapons enthusiast. Y’all can’t own anything dangerous (I know very restrictively they actually can have some things) over in Europe but we don’t have 500 year old castles to walk around in and feel how these things could’ve been carried and used. Wish y’all could own them as much or more as I wish we had your ability to reach back in time.
Thank you for that. Wonderful lesson in "old school" arms and armor
Great video, as always.
But mail is also used without fabric armor underneath. It increases its protective value, but even alone it works good enough. At least in earlier periods.
Now I want to make myself a mail vest.
My brother spent weeks making half of a mail glove. Apparently it was exhausting hand work. 🥵 I can certainly see why mail was a luxury item.
If you finish inside a year you'll be doing well. Need shed loads of patience & perserverance.
I have never made wire, but I have used wire to make rings to make butted LARP mail.
The upside is that you need a lot fewer tools and no forge facility (I have made some while watching TV)
The downside is that butted mail can self-disassemble when put under strain, like catching on a tree when running through the forest.
Loved this
A bit late to this but when you mentioned "four through one" mail-making it reminded me of a discussion with a friend about "lorica trielicum" - a term he'd seen in regard to Roman soldiers, best guess we could arrive at was "one through six". As we were using 'butted' mail (which was primarily cosmetic) it would have been possible to have made "one through eight" which would have been approaching 'flexible steel sheet', just wondering if you've ever seen or heard of such a thing in reality?
Excellent ! As ever .
Time to check out that link to the video about waxed arrow heads now! :D
The truly fascinating part is that the transition from flexible composite armor to rigid armor almost exactly parallels the same process that we have seen with modern ballistic armors. In that example, the mail/gambeson is analagous to layered Kevlar or Dyneema and the later plate is analagous to rigid ceramic/polyethylene plates, with intermediate forms between those transitions involving both hard and soft armor as well as persistent use of less protective flexible armor for lower threat environments (i.e. soldiers rarely bother with soft armor, but police officers often find that flexible armor is sufficient and more comfortable). An entire design process was recapitulated across two radically different threat types and materials science environments.
Looks like you are having great fun :)
Lovely video!
I'd love to see a video on how to make the chisels, punches, and tongs to make riveted maile! Always been fascinated by the process
I would love to see a video on medieval wire drawing. That is a process I can't figure out by just thinking on it, and I think it would be very entertaining.
@@MonkeyJedi99 thered a book called "Complete Metalsmith" by Tim McCreight that actually goes through the process of using a draw plate (and making one) along with just a poop ton of other info! It's a great book! 300 pages of info ant techniques
@@FluidForgeBlacksmithing Interesting.
The book has a mix of reviews, and even some of the most positive state that it is mostly an overview work.
Myself, I want to SEE the process, which is why I would like a video of it being done.
I have seen modern wire drawing on How It's Made, and I want to know how it is done more manually.
@@MonkeyJedi99 I like it because it's got a ton of topics, and is a great jumping off point to really get into the rabbit hole of ideas I hadn't even realized were a thing, but agreed, acutally seeing things is fantastic
@@FluidForgeBlacksmithing This conversation has been a pleasure.
Have a fantastic day!
Thanks for the great demo. Presenting it on location really seems to give a sense of reference as well.
(P.S. Personal opinion, but I agree that they might have used beeswax too.)
Thank you.
Excellent!
Its pretty easy to get wax on the head even if you don't know about what it does to penetration. I believe they would wax their bows and arrows to protect them from water. Its probably not to far fetched to assume that if they protect the wood that way, they might also apply some of it to the arrow head to protect it from rusting :)
I swear that every time I get excited in something and start looking into it, you put out a video on it within a week. :D So with that in mind, I know this might be a bit far from your usual fare, but if it was within your powers, could you make a video on medieval smiths' tools and workshops, perhaps their place in culture of the time? I am currently researching early medieval anvils, since I have gotten my grubby mitts on right about a kilo of meteoric iron, which I intend to process as if it was bloomery iron, and then carburise it, and make it back into a little flatbar (I expect ~10% yield), to use as a face of a medieval anvil - as I always dreamt of forging starmetal, but now that I have it, it feels too precious to make into a single axe's bit, and made into an anvil, in a way, everything forged on it shall come from a meteorite! :D I would be most grateful if you could point me at some resource on medieval anvils, particularily past "the viking age", as I am currently browsing through several books (in five languages!) on those, but I have none for past 1066. Fantastic little video, and if my travels take me that way, I'd gladly visit, cheers!
Great content man. Love every video you make. Always a good time.
Dover Castle is the biggest in the UK and is absolutely hard as nails. It's often overlooked on lists of the UK's most important castles etc. It's situated on a steep hill/cliff so in every instance you'd be fighting a literal uphill battle and massively outranged. Even the inner walls and keep alone are larger than many Castle complexes in entirety. The outer walls would have been even bigger without the various modifications made in the Napoleonic era. It's an example (rather like the Tower of London and Corfe Castle) of a truly monumental defensive endeavour - not designed to be pretty or as a rich man's folly, but to defend the vital town of Dover and make it harder to invade via the Kent coast. Anyone visiting Dover should also head across to the opposite (west) hill and visit the Bluff Redoubt, a monumental series of Napoleonic fortifications and bastions tens of feet thick.
I'd have thought being the most invadable town from France, Dover castle should have a higher profile as a key defence location and building. As his previous video shows, the ultimate lookout location for invasion.
The last thing I needed was something to reinspire me to make mail.
I had a go about 20 years ago. Didn't even get as far as a hankerchief size before I gave up! That was just butted rather than riveted too.
I think its possible that because our ancestors would have basically always waxed or greased their arrow heads, they may never have noticed that it had such an impact on penetration. Its also possible that they made the same observations, but drew different conclusions. Being ubiquitous leads to the assumption of common knowledge, so you get instructions like "blackened in the usual way" for example.
Well wax-me-bodkin; fascinating! I wonder how long the process took from forge to fitting that 40k link Maille coat on the client.
Wow, good one! Thanks! :)
French man here. A quick word on chain mail.
Maille means link and comes from the latin "medialis" (in the middle).
Chaine means chain and comes from the latin "catena".
The pieces of a chain are called "maillons" (big links) and we talk about "les maillons d'une chaine" (the links of a chain)
i love that knight clubbing shirt!
Tod, I'm interested on your thoughts about evidence that maille wasn't typically worn with a quilted/padded undergarment prior to the late 13th century. From what I've heard, during the early middle ages up to the mid-13th century, gambesons and maille weren't typically paired. A gambeson as a padded garment would be worn as stand-alone armor.
There are references to "aketons" from before then but there is little in the matter of how they were constructed. I've heard at that period they might've been little more than a garment made from a stout fabric like a thick felt. And there is also conflicting info about whether or not they were primarily for comfort and fit; padding only being a secondary intention. "Aketon" and "gambeson" have largely become synonymous words in the modern tongue which doesn't help.
Interestingly enough I have seen evidence of some sort of sleeveless (or with very short, dagged sleeves) padded "gambeson" being worn *over* the maille in the middle of the 13th century. It seems to have a similar construction and look to a sleeveless surcoat. But for me that only seems to cast more doubt on the gambeson under maille because wearing two garments like that seems excessive to me.
This was initially brought to my attention when I was casually browsing manuscript miniatures, (as one does) and noticed that most depictions of maille from that period are extremely close-fitting; almost too close for a possible concealed gambeson. There are also a few depictions of hauberks being removed in the morgan bible that show nothing more than the long tunic underneath
manuscriptminiatures.com/4673/8003.
Of course they do show the padding on top of the head for the helmet which makes it strange that they would omit the padded garment on the rest of the body.
All of this eventually led me to several interesting threads on myarmoury that discussed this very subject.
myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.34802.html
myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.34599.html
myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.30715.html
Anyways, I'm planning a late 12th early 13th century knightly kit and this has got me worried about whether or not I should be wearing a full-blown gambeson underneath my hauberk as many seem to automatically assume. It seems logical at first but this has given me doubts.
If you're wearing that for an SCA or RenFaire thing, I suspect that the gambeson is required.
The Greeks & Romans did wear padding often under armour. It was one of the items illustrated in late Roman armament factories. So it's not like it was only discovered in the C13th. Kings/chiefs' hearth troops would've been well equipped, experienced & trained warriors. So I'd have thought they'd soon find out how mail alone had big drawbacks IF(& that's a big if) they were ignorant of padding. It's hard to see how that knowlage/basic armour best practice/warcraft could become lost when service in late Roman armies was a common thing for Germanic tribes, many Germanic successor kingdoms inherited the factories & skilled workers or would indeed find it self-evident that you needed something under the mail in practice.
Akhetons are from the Arabic word for cotton, the Arabic/Saracen world used Akhetons quite widely & it remained in use by the East Roman(Byzantine) armies throughout this time, so if gambesons were lost in parts of Western Europe during the early medieval era, the crusades or just Norman service in Sicily or Italy in the C11th would've passed the knowlage on to them. Even Britain's sub-Roman kings kept some contact with Byzantium after the fall of the West Roman empire.
Waxing the arrows/bolts was most likely commonly done originally to prevent them from rusting, then after they discovered how much better they penitrate they made sure they were waxed.
Nice 5 foot thick window sill your sitting on.... will that stop a waxed arrow?
Some additional notes:
Historically, the domed rivets were actually domed only on the exterior side, on the interior side, they'd sit mostly flush. Later on, they switched over to flat, triangualr-shaped rivets instead. The rings would be variously flattened - sometimes they were pretty much completely flat, sometimes slightly flattened (to oval-ish shape with flat sides), sometimes they were left completely circular. Either way, the ends of the rings would be flattened to accomodate the rivet. The rivet itself wouldn't be the point of failure for proper rings - they'd tear somewhere outside of the heavily flattened, riveted-through place. Possibly for this reason were the rings often being flattened, but that's just my personal theory - in my mind, the flatter the rings, the more stab protection, but the less cut protection from something like a dane axe. For you to be able to flatten and punch-through the rings, you might need to anneal them. They'd also often use a technique of producing flat rings by punching a hole into the midle of a small, circular plate of metal. Such a ring wouldn't need riveting, which speeds up the process significantly, as then you need only half of the rings to be riveted. Also, in order to cut the spring into individual rings, you can use cutting pliers with a tooth filed into them, which allows you to cut the second line of the spring, skipping the first one. This allows you to keep your overlap for the area you are going to flatten and rivet-through.
The ring diameter and wire diameter could be also altered throughout the armor, making it more protective but heavier and less flexible in certain areas (like around the neck), and vice versa in others (like in the armpits). The armor was also tailored to copy the owner's body line, to prevent excessive material (especially on sleeves) from slapping around, adding unwanted weight and momentum to the wearer's limbs. Finally, the material used would usually be wrought iron, in exceptional circumstances mild steel. It's possible there were heat-treated pieces, but certainly more often than not, they weren't.
A thought on maille. If you can do a lot of the prep work, how much could be done during winter when not a lot is going on? Lots of down time without a lot to do, just feeding links through.
In Cornwall/Kernow there is the Hayle River- but hayle means river in Cornish/Kernewek- River River.
Fun factoid- there was a government lab or facility at Nanscuke- they may or may not have produced nerve gas etc. there. Nans- valley, cuke- death, valley death or in English/Sowsnek, Death Valley.
Several examples in England of double named features. The ancient British for river is Avon, so the several river Avons are "river river"s.
"for the Great Keep...
... and keeping them going"
No pun intended xD
Cheers!
I.
Vid idea for you, Todd; tools used by admirers? Why? How?
Have found ideas of how such used interesting for myself.
Tod, the Time Traveler, inside the Dover Castle
Interesting!
So they actually used to make thousands of links like that and connected each and single one of them step by step, thousands of times to get one set of maille armour? This is madness...My hands hurt just thinking about it.
There WASN'T just ONE guy making maille
@@mikegrossberg8624 I know, I just imagine doing this work and can't help but be amazed at how many hours it would take one person to make one set of maille armor.
One would hammer out the rod; the next would either do all the drawing, or there would be one doing each pass of the wire through the drawplate, and handing it on for the next draw; the next guy would wind the wire around the mandrel; another guy would cut the links, dropping them into a bucket; another would pick up the bucket, flatten the ends of each link, and drop them into another bucket; the next guy would either drop OPEN links into a bucket, or rivet them closed, and drop THOSE into yet ANOTHER bucket; the LAST guy, the maille MAKER, would assemble the open and closed links to form the armor.
That was the SPEED method for maille making; the assembly line! That's why maille shirts cost like hell!
Of course, not EVERY maille shirt was made like that
MINE were all done by litle old me ALONE!
I didn't have to MAKE the wire(thank the gods for Home Depot!). One day,, I'd sit and turn out a dozen or so coils, with a hand-cranked mandrel(tried using a power drill, but it went too fast to control easily). Next day, I'd sit cutting links. When I had a bucketful, I'd sit opening/ closing links(since I wasn't going to wear the maille into combat, and I wasn't obsessive enough to do riveting, I didn't have to worry about how strong it was, so just butted links was okay). When I had enough ready links to keep me occupied for a while, I started assembling swatches of maille; I'd make pieces about 100 by 100 links, for ease of handling. When I had enough pieces assembled, they would be joined together to form the body and sleeves . After that, it was just a matter of adding rows of links to get them to the length I wanted
@@kooroshrostami27 My last hauberk took, in actual time worked on it, about two months, from first starting to wind links to finish.
Counting in all the "interruptions", work, food shop & prep, housecleaning, errands, sore hands, general abhorrence of the IDEA of the entire thing at some points, etc, about seven months
@@mikegrossberg8624 Well, although I can't possibly imagine how much work that must be, at least my imagination of hurting hands wasn't too far off then. Thanks for the extensive insight though I think it's fascinating 👍
I wish I could remember the source I read 30 years ago about wax on arrowheads.
I do not remember that there was a video where waxed arrows were fired at chain mail, waxed arrows were fired at a shield
Wondering if there could be a “lockdown longbow” equivalent for lead sling bullets? It would be interesting to see their effects on this type of armour. Also to know if they have been overrated by classical accounts?
I seem to remember Todd made a rock-throwing crossbow at one point
Ooh, yeah, that could be cool. There are "ballester" crossbows, that shoot bullets, like a sling; so it would be a case of calculating the speed of a sling projectile, I guess, and then getting a crossbow with equal velocity.
Most Ancient Chinese crossbows were used to fire crossbow bolts and arrows (from bows), but some variants were made to shoot "bullets." Many of the crossbows that fired bullets were made to hunt small animals since regular crossbow that fired bolts were overkill and would cause much more damage the skin & meat. See wiki quote: "Jing Fang (78-37 BC) wrote that the moon, shaped like a ball, produced no light and was illuminated only by the sun, which he compared to the shape of a round crossbow bullet."
Slinger here. Making something that replicates the performance of a sling is not as simple as one might think. The main problem is that sling releases lead projectiles point-first + spin stabilized. The heaviest sling bullets used by the Romans in Gaul often weighed ~90g and I estimate that they would be slung at ~75m/s by expert slingers. It wouldn't go through fabric armour, but I think it could break bones underneath. Certainly any stone between 200-500g (1 mina ~ 500g, the heavy Balearic stones) will have anti-armour characteristics, due to the shear momentum behind them. The sling is much better at killing through armour than perforating it. 500g stone at 40m/s or more is a real monster (and could be achieved with a very short sling).
@@Archaic-Arms It's very interesting! I'm not sure how exactly it can be done, but I'd love to see accurate repeatable testing. It seems like the problem is the huge skill gap in becoming a good slinger. (at least as good as the ancient source would suggest). Is there anyone in the slinging community that's been able to replicate this constantly? It would be very cool to see someone at that skill level tested with various mediums. And to see what it can do to something behind the armour. Maybe a way to measure trauma that's transfered?
Another great video :)
I can see the benefit of Mail over body parts that have to move to keep the wearer flexable but was there ever combiation suits that linked the chain mail to solid plate say in the more vital chest/abdomen area? It would add more weight but greater protection and be possibly faster to manufacture a plate over all those links?
Hello 👋
Have you read the article on the use of the « gambeson » written by Nathanael Dos reis ? It was written within the theme of his thesis on the armament (armour and weapons) of the 12th century early 13th century knight and it’s evolution.
Tod - You should sell those mini maces and medieval meat tenderizers!!!
Love your stuff. I have always loved the medieval world especially arms and armor. What is the specific difference between a Castle and a Keep though?
The keep is the central building of the castle.
@@InSanic13 Okay so each part of the entire castle has its own name like gate house, keep etc. Thanks.
A castle is the whole fortification complex, but the Keep is the last defence super-tower, origionally square/rectangular in floor plan. There'd be usually 2+ walls to overcome before you could try to take the keep & once inside stone ones, often also a cross-wall so the defenders could withdraw into just one half. In the earlier timber motte & bailey castles the keep was a square wooden tower like structure surrounded by its own small pallisade on top of a tall mound(the "Motte"), while the bailey was a larger pallisaded area attached closer to ground level, containing living quarters, great hall, workshops, a chapel, store rooms stables etc. Access from the bailey up to the keep was usually by a flying bridge(steps raised on timber piles) that could be demolished if the bailey was taken & the defenders withdrew to the motte & keep.
@@2bingtim Thank you.
Tod, is there any sources that show the history of aketons / gambesons? I know there is discussion about roman padding, but I would love to learn more about how it was designed and how it evolved.
There's almost nothing preserved (from Europe, at least) from before 14th-15th century, so sadly there's not that much we can say for sure. Not that there's that much stuff preserved later either.
Remember, as a kid, having the house for 2 days? This is exactly that but x10000 💪😅
Handy little mace you've got there. I just saw a movieclip about the moscow kremlin armoury, admiring the collection there and noticed quite a loty of sceptres. I have done some research but could not find a definite answer; is a sceptre a fancy mace or a fancy wand? Or neither and I'm missing something. A type of mace with a spring action that is lethal in most countries is the ploertendoder as the dutch call it, can't find much history there either besides italians, later used by mobsters, but not much detail. Thanks for any intel.
A "ploertendoder"; or, a twit-killer 😆 End that bounder properly.
I knew all that but I enjoyed sitting through it anyway. How many hours of labour do you recon is in that hauberk?
Maille is not the chain, but a net or knitted fabric (think a knitted jumper or shawl). Maillon, a derivative of 'maille', however is link, as in a link in a chain...
Tod has swords, crossbows and maile now. Those people are never getting that castle back.
You said that mail on itself isn t very good. Yet i wonder about roman legionaries, celtic wariors... and later the 'vikings'. To my knowledge they did not have real padded armour. I geuss mail on itself is better than nothing. But why wouldn t they have developed something like a gambeson? (I heard there were some gambeson like garments around in antiquity but there use does not seem to be wide-spread).
*their
I was wondering if vaxed arrows could be beneficial in a hunting scenario
And again thanks for a great video
🐝Cheers Tod
If having a freaking trebuchet was not enough to envy Tod, he also works in a castle every now and then..
I'd love a "bring your trebuchet to work day"!
Question. Was it steel or iron wire at that point in time?
Defining what's iron and what steel, precisely can be tricky, but generally it was wrought iron, Hardness could vary a lot though.
I have just had a thought; was Was bees wax put on arrows to stop them rusting, & then found to be be very effective for penetrating armour?
I'd have thought olive oil, linseed oil or smeared animal fat would be a better lubrucant to aid armour penetration than harder beeswax?
i taught myself a bit with a roll of $6 tie wire.
wanted to see why they didnt make gloves, now i know, cant hold anything unless its super small rings maybe.
tried to make a coif for halloween but didnt make it in time
there are tonnes of examples of mail gloves, most of them just don't have mail on the palms
What if the armor is also waxed? Will it be more or less effective?
Im a bow hunter. I wonder if waxing arrowheads would increase penetration on whitetail?
But does a greased sword have better penetration?
I don't see why this should be a speed dependent thing... Hmm.
They'd be at least semi-greased from the fur-on skin often lining the wooden scabbard for the very purpose of slowing rusting & preventing the sword from sliding out of the scabbard. Smear a bit of animal fat or olive/linseed oil in the top of the scabbard & it'll grease the blade a little every time itis drawn & scabbarded.
Tod you got any advice where I can buy some nice medieval helmets for fairly cheap (under £100)
It entirely depends on how loose you want to go with the definition of the word "nice"
@NotMikasa: What type of helmets are you looking for exactly? Period? Materials? Thickness? £100 is not going to get you much. £200-£250 is a more realistic budget for a good quality basic medieval-style helmet (kettle hat for example).
Like a modern broad rimmed soft hat can be styled in any style of at least the past 2000 years, the WW1 tommy helmet can be so modified and/or decorated.
@@MontyCantsin5 im looking for a nasal helmet you know like the normans in 1066 i want one to put on a shelf and to eventually build a norman uniform or something to do with vikings
How about bees wax on the rondel dagger?
Bran castle was cool :P
French speaker here. Chainmail isn't really a pleonasm. In French, the word "maille" means 1 of those little steel rings (or any single link of a regular chain). The better expression in English would be chainED mail. The chained part is what makes the difference between a bag of ringlets and an armor.
Thanks and sorry if I have misrepresented something here
Modern French isn't really that relevant here, since obviously mail wasn't used much during last 300 years.
In Old/Middle English, the word meant armor made out of rings, not ring or link by itself. From what I gather, same was true for Old French, from which the word was borrowed. It simply meant "mail armor", no additional descriptors.
@@lscibor Well I'm certainly not an expert in Old French, but the Old French dictionary I have uses the same definition as modern French "Chacune des boucles d'un fil textile, qui s'entrelacent pour former un tissu souple voire lâche" Roughly translated as "EACH of the links of a textile thread that interlink to create a soft, even lax, fabric."
Could anyone explain to me why mail was used more than a plate armor. To me it seems that while plate armor requires little bit more recourses, it would faster to make and it works better than mail.
Anyone has any ideas?
TL;DR version: mail fits *everyone* that is small enough to get it over their torso. It hangs from the shoulders, maybe you've belted it, the mail hauberk often covers down to your thighs, one garment, one set of maintenance.
Plate has to be 1) fitted to the wearer, and 2) every piece is strapped on separately. Making plate requires far more skilled armorsmithing (the wire for mail can be made by even basically trained blacksmiths) and wearing plate requires assistance to get it on and off. Not to mention, maintenance efforts.
(Relevant experience: 5 years as a heavy fighter in the SCA, wearing various loaned piece of mail and plate... I *much* preferred borrowing a mail shirt, until I had enough money to buy plate pieces of my own.)
Massively more expensive, technologically much more difficult, nowhere near as easily resize or repaired, and finally the resources to make plate armor in anything but irritatingly small pieces essentially didn't exist in most places for most of History
To expand on the other replies, maille is cheaper to repair if it gets damaged. You break one link, you replace that link. You punch a hole in plate, you replace the entire piece of plate, or forge weld a patch. The quality of steel needs to be higher for plate than it does for maille, as maille is nearly as good with mild steel as it is with high carbon steel, but plate steel needs to be at least medium carbon steel or extra thick to be effective. Finally, the process of making steel in the medieval period was such that making a large enough sheet of plate was a big challenge until later in the period. For a long time, steel was created in palm size chunks, and then they would forge welded the pieces to create larger pieces and hope that there were no flaws in the welds.
Plate armor got invented during the course of 14th century in Western Europe. So before that, it couldn't be used much. ;)
After 14th century, when plate got common, it quite apparently indeed was used MORE than mail. But mail never went completely out of use.
It's flexible, more comfortable, breathable, easier to don, especially by oneself, can cover pretty much almost any spot on the body. and as mentioned, individual suit of mail is incredibly hard to destroy.
Since in 15th and 16th century more affordable kinds of plate are generally much cheaper than mail, and yet mail never really goes away, it must have been valued for certain reasons.
Nice t shirt
They may have waxed their heads if only to keep them from rusting. Then someone figured out it would help lube them to drive deeper through armor.
Or smeared them with animal fat or olive oil, if that isn't too acidic?
Saying that maille without padding isn't enough is one of THE BEST pro, Vikings MUST have had padded armour arguments I can think of. I've heard so many people say that, because their are no Viking padded armour finds, it mean that wearing padded armour is a historical inaccurism. Despite the fact we know padded armour was in wide spread use elsewhere and long before the Viking period.
not to mention the chaffing hur hur hur
I reckon they just used thick wool Tunics. We've got to go off the evidence and unfortunately we have no evidence of gambeson type garments from that period in the area, even though it seems to be common sense from our modern perspective. If we look at extant examples of later under maille padding, it's often much thinner than most people expect too.
Is it likely that any such garment would just rot beyond what we could recognize anymore?
@@VarenRoth they would be liable to that yes, but we have clothing from the time etc. The issue is we also don't have anything in the way of depictions of under maille garments, or descriptions in accounts as far as I'm aware.
@Isaac Howell: Yes, that appears to be the case. Wearing a woollen tunic under mail was probably quite normal for those who could afford a hauberk. Very thick, padded gambesons in combination with mail, however, is still a point of contention in reenactment circles.
🏆
If you put something like wd40 would you get the modern equivalent of something like beeswax on a bolt head?
Yes. I'd use 3 in 1 or light machine oil. Olive oil would probably do too.
I assume that bee's wax was expensive then. Is it a possibility that those who shot the arrows/bolts could have used lard instead? Would the results be the same between the two?
Edit: I am by no means an expert. These are a few, (among a thousand), questions I have.
Bees wax was probably easier to get in the medieval time than it is now, as beekeeping was a much more important industry in that time. Lard and tallow could be used, but they both have a lower melting point than bees wax and they both will go bad much easer than bees wax. Lard and tallow can liquify on a hot day in direct sunlight, but bees wax will not.
@@johnhenkel1828 Ah, ok. That does make sense! Thanks for your answer. (Seriously, I do appreciate it.)
lol, that t-shirt 😂
If yo grease your shaft, does it penetrate deeper? :D