These guys were the heroes as a teenager and aspiring artist in the 90's. They stood up to the industry and created their own lane. Truly appreciate the backstory.
So glad you enjoyed - it is one of the true defining moments of modern comics, had a lot of fun looking back on all this stuff. Really appreciate you checking it out and especially you taking the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
You did a decent job putting select non linear events into a comprehensive timeline. Thank goodness they all started Image. TY Rob for hiring me @ 16 to draw superhero books. Celebrating my 30th anniversary as a pro next year ;)
First off, thank you so much - this was a bit of a challenge but I tried my best to logically bundle stuff up and tell the story, glad it appears to have turned the trick. Second, for all the crap Liefeld gets - and he deserves some of it - I hate to see people forget all the good stuff that he's done for the industry. Third, that is AWESOME man! Congrats on making it in one of the most ruthless fields out there - would I be familiar with any of your work?
@@JerkComic I inked/finished a large portion of the Deadpool Bad Blood series plus did inks on Deadpool Badder Blood #1 *only* prob the only current stuff you'd be familiar with. I self publish a lot of books. I also inked the backup stuff of Rob's in that last Youngblood reboot. Pages were pub'd in various issues of that up through #9 then recollected in his Brigade #1 relaunch I hear? Can't confirm. Got links on my channel for my personal I.P. stuff. I came up as a McFarlane/Silvestri/Liefeld/Portacio/Lee fanboy.
Yeah... I kinda think whether he wants to admit it, or say it out loud, that had to have reeeeally irked Lee. I know Liefeld and McFarlane were basically "over it" at that point, but Lee seems like he was really trying to make things work with Marvel until that night right before the Sotheby's auction where they told him he was "replacable". Not the thing to say to someone who's thinking about leaving your company and whose art is gonna make you a mint the next day on top of being the highest selling modern age comic of all time. "Marvel really evil boy" sums it up pretty well. Greedy SOBs is another way to say it... haha. Thanks so much for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed - and I super appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
Actually, it's childish. In the So Called Fine Art world works changed ownership many times after the artist received their original fee! The return of original artwork in the commercial arts wasn't always guaranteed unless stated in a contract!
@@pulsarstargrave256 comics are not the fine art world - it's always been a matter of contention for comics. While I would tend to agree that legally there's little argument here, comics are a small business and people wanted Kirby to get his art back because they liked him and they thought it was his. This eventually extended to other artists but it's a very strange and murky subject. Howard Chaykin says as much during his comic journal interview in the 80s. Right or wrong, it was one of the polarizing moments in the industry that led to Image!
@@JerkComic "comics are not the fine art world" what an ironic statement! Anyway, I stand by my original statement, the return of original art is NOT guaranteed! As far as the commercial "arts" are concerned the publishing house or ad agency are not hiring artists ( or writers) for the privilege of doing work for them, the artists are HIRED HANDS, work for hire individuals and the organizations own the product or the work under work for hire conditions! If an artist wants the original work returned, they have to negotiate for this when and if the company doesn't have an automatic return policy!
@@pulsarstargrave256 Ironic in what way? This isn't just my opinion. When Bernard Krigstein tried to form the Society of Comic Book Illustrators this was actually a big debate among people who were artists working in the field. The name was a big point of contention as it called them, illustrators and not artists. Krigstein saw this as a way to separate comic and other commercial artists from the fine arts world and community by the publishers. A struggle that would continue for decades. There's been plenty of well known names that have made their way into "fine art galleries" like Frazetta and Gogos, but this has been an ongoing struggle for comic artists, or illustrators rather, haha. I don't mean to cast dispersion on comic art, I obviously hold it in extremely high regard - but it's only been very recently that people have begun to appreciate the beauty, talent and commercial value of this original art. re Original Art: sorry maybe I was unclear, was agreeing with you. The return of art is far from guaranteed, or rather was. Most of the major disagreements over the ownership of comic art arose from agreements where the ownership of the original art was rather ambiguous. There were plenty of artists that didn't want it back, or didn't think it was worth the hassle of trying - then there were people like Frazetta who kept all but one original from his entire career. Never meant to imply the return of art was "guaranteed" - far from it. It was a long and lengthy battle for most of those guys because the water was so murky when it came to the original contracts and I think a lot of personal feelings seeped into the arguments. I personally think artists should get their art back unless you agree that you're buying it as part of the original agreement, but I definitely am not a publisher and I would also agree that this is something that needs to be worked out and decided before any contracts are signed.
Haha, man I loved it when I was a kid even though I knew so much of it was crap! I lost my collection years back and have been picking up issues that are important that I remember the past few years. Have you checked out any of the Cartoonist Kayfabe Wizard Magazine videos? They started with issue one and are doing deep dives into all the issues - though they have really slowed down on posting them since the channel really took off.
@@maddoxtolliver Oh yeah, it got me into some GREAT books to, no crap. Palmer's Picks was awesome and they did talk to some neat people like their coverage of Scud and a few other things that ever managed above cult status but really should have. Plus, there was basically that and Hero out at the time that weren't periodical historical fanzine type publications like Alter Ego or the Comics Journal, definitely helped get a lot of people into and keep a lot of other people into comics.
@@crusty_breads there's likely no way Image and Valiant would have happened otherwise. Learning Garub Shameles, ahem Shamus was at the Image founding meetings was VERY interesting to me.
Here am I at 30yo and reliving my 90s comic book childhood. Thank you for making these videos. Not only is it a trip down memory lane but I learning something new each time. Just came off The MaXX video to this one. Love that series and it's a shame that Sam Keith had a lot of inner demons messing with his confidence. The first chapter of Volume 6 with the crayon artist really came from a real place.
Those last 14 issues are straight from the gut and you can tell. He's working out some real demons having to do with his wife and some other stuff, was really interesting to read The Maxx knowing so much more about Kieth, becomes painfully evident that he was just poring his guts out over those two years or so... might have been one of the reasons he quit so abruptly when he felt like he wasn't getting as warm a reception anymore. Thanks so much for checking out the video, really happy you're enjoying the channel - and thanks so much for taking the time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it!
Man, I love the Maxx cartoon and liquid television. Maxx was Oddities not Liquid Television though. I do not know what kind of Mandala effect has transpired but it was part of the “wonderment that is MTV’s Oddities!” The Head is the only other oddity cartoon that I know of. Was realllly bummed when MTV failed to pick the Maxx back up and then unceremoniously got rid of Oddities. So funny because not a single person seems to remember Oddities and they all think it was part of Liquid Television... if I didn’t still have the original bumpers I’d think I was crazy. Pretty sure I stuck the opening animation sequence from Oddities in here but you can check it out with full narration here in case you wanna check it out and let those memories come flooding back haha ua-cam.com/video/JlkzHSDoMpc/v-deo.html Thanks so much for checking out the video so glad you enjoyed and I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to leave a comment really appreciate it and it helps out the channel immensely!
@@michaelstreeto3889 the only other animated show MTV ever aired aside from Aeon Flux that was as strange as The Maxx. I've actually long wondered what would have happened if The Maxx HAD been part of Liquid Television. Way more exposure, and seems like a lot of stuff there has had much more staying power because the program really seems to stick out as a whole in their memory.
@@JerkComic I remember oddities. I actually saw a video the other day where someone recorded a show with the commercials, and oddities was shown in teh commercials.
As a comic collector it was an exciting time, comic books were becoming more accepted and Wizard magazine in those early years really kept the fanboys up to date on the behind the scenes of the comic industry. One good thing I liked about Liefeld was his persistence to make it into comics.
Dude had mad hustle and drive! For all the crap people talk about Liefeld, it seems like a lot of people just can't help but get swept up in that energy when they meet him. That being said, he's a total flake with a massive mouth and tends to get himself into trouble as much as he succeeds he falls flat on his face these days. Kinda miss the 90s outlaw, anything goes feel - and Wizard... boy does that take me back. I got sucked into UA-cam because of Cartoonist Kayfabe's Wizard reviews and started this channel because I was spending so much time watching stuff I wanted to start making it. Who would have ever thought Wizard would prove to be one of the most important publications in my life, haha? Wow... Thanks so much for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed, and I really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
This trips me out. Originally, I thought it was McFarlane who the main ringleader behind Image comics. Never knew it was Liefeld who did all the work and McFarlane was just the mouthpiece. How long did McFarlane work on Spawn before he decided to quit drawing and writing the book? I want to say less than 5 years.
I think it was less than 2 years actually, like 20 issues or so? Then he stepped back for Capullo who is the artist I think most people ACTUALLY think of when they see Spawn unless they picture that cover to issue 1 at this point, haha. And McFarlane was extremely important, he got guys like Jim Lee on board - but he would never have taken that insane initial leap that Liefeld did. Liefeld just had a big enough ego that when editorial came down on him like a ton of bricks over Executioners, he was gonna do something about it. Valentino and Larsen I think often get glossed over too, because Larsen is the only reason that McFarlane really got on board so quick - he knew that dude's work ethic and what he was capable of. Valentino was integral to actually getting books out as he was the only person with any real experience in these regards and Lee helped keep the legitimate face on the business during those first few rocky years when no one could get a book out on time with a gun to their head... I don't mean to downplay the importance of any of the founding fathers, but I think that people's distaste for Liefeld has tainted the history of the company. I mean, the official bio book with monster interviews I repeatedly cite here, Road To Independence - they didn't even interview Liefeld for it because he was on the outs with the company. Gets glossed over and it shouldn't - they were all integral in their own unique ways to Image imo
That blows my mind honestly, i thought McFarland was the originator as well of image comics.. wow but still a huge fan since i was in high school in the mid 90's
@@elvinocasio1518 Liefeld couldn't have done it without McFarlane. Larsen and Valentino MIGHT have followed him, Jim Lee and Marc Silvesti followed McFarlane and MdFrlane was the face of Image for a looong time. Image could never have worked without all the pieces. It just so happens that Rob Liefeld had a big enough ego to do something about it when editorial came down on his head like a ton of bricks. I'd never diminish any of the founding father's roles, but Liefeld I think gets kinda short changed sometimes because he can be unpopular with a lot of people for a host of reasons.
To be fair, one of the reasons "X-Force #1" sold so well was because they were poly-bagged with cards. You needed to get each of six cards to make a complete set. And at that time, IIRC, individual cards were valued at $1.50, and the whole set was valued at $15.00. So, it raises a question. Did it legitimately sell 5,000,000 copies? Or did it sell +/- 1,000,000 of each copy with a particular card? Unlike Todd McFarlane's Spider-Man, which came with one cover...
Not to be THAT guy, but there are an INSANE amount of versions of that Spider-Man 1 cover. Gold silver, poly bagged, unbagged, Platinum, on and on and on - bad comparison imo, but I totally get you. Do I think it "legitimately" sold that many? I don't know. Do you only count reader copies, with the collector market the way it is now - does that mean that maybe 1 out of every 10 books is actually "sold"? That's a hard thing to quantify but variant covers have been a nasty and slippery slope. They did the same thing for X-Men 1 with Lee and I think like 5 covers too, all the "record breakers".
I really liked Cable as a kid, and Deadpool turned into something completely different and really interesting when written properly. I also did enjoy this Hawk and Dove series, his early stuff where he was putting his back into is definitely decent when he's got the right inker and colorist working on his stuff. At the time though I was just salty and Sienkiewicz wasn't on NM anymore, I still think that might be my favorite cover run on a Marvel title ever - didn't give Liefeld or NM a fair shake at the time because of it.
@@JerkComic That makes sense because a buddy of mine as a kid was poking fun at me. He loved the Seinkiewicz work too on NM. I just didn't appreciate Bill's work back then. Looking back Bill's work was really special on NM. Really special. Thanks for taking the time out to reply.
@@TheReal_DeanD No worries that's why I started this channel! And I think few people were aware of just HOW special it was. He was doing things I'd never seen, never even dreamed were possible with comics art - the way he integrated people like Ralph Steadman and Bacon into his work was something I'd never seen before. Thank god Shooter let it fly even though he hated those covers and did not get the art at all, haha. Another thing we owe Louise Simonson for - what an unsung hero of comics she is!
Amen to this, that's like the entire mantra behind my channel. I'm as obsessed with how and why things happened behind the scenes as in the books, haha. The characters behind them are almost always more interesting anyways! Thanks so much for checking this out, really appreciate you leaving a comment as well - helps out the channel more than you know and means a lot to know people are actually watching and enjoying these videos I spend so long on!
Claremont wasn't kicked off X-Men for Jim Lee, he left because of interference from editorial. Byrne filled in as writer for 4-5, then Lee and Scott Lobdell. Chris Claremont and Lee worked together on WildCats a year or two later and the Huntsmen was slated as Claremont's creator owned titles for Image.
You are absolutely correct. However after 30 years of reading Claremont interviews more than any other professional here's how I came to this conclusion. The editorial interference that was happening at the time, at least in Claremont's eyes especially 20 years ago, was all aimed at making the artists not the writers happy and because he had a tenuous grasp on the X-titles by that point he finally just got exasperated about Marvel listening to someone like Jim Lee who was a young turk in his eyes, than himself, he could no longer work for the title - and he let this be known to Marvel. They did nothing to help keep him around and instead shooed him off pretty much. Claremont obviously never took umbrage against Jim Lee, it wasn't his fault Marvel listened to him and he had ideas about the series - that was Marvel editorial. So yeah, kinda poetic license that I should have changed up but that's my line of reasoning there... Thanks so much for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed - really appreciate the feedback, always cool to learn new stuff and talk to people interested in the same things! Thank you for taking the time to leave a comment btw, I really appreciate it and it helps out the channel immensely.
Working on it now, had to wait on a few things to show up in the mail and go back to the drawing board with the script after reading an interview that changed what I thought I knew about the origins of The Maxx. Got a few smaller pieces I'm finishing in the meantime as I refuse to rush part 2 and sacrifice quality. Thanks again for checking out the video and taking time to interact- it's the whole reason I started this channel.
Cincinnati James Jim Lee changed the direction of Claremont’s stories, so less and less of Claremont ideas were making it into the book. Bob Harras and Lee wanted the original X-Men and. Xavier back in the book. Claremont tried to work with it,, but he felt it was a step back. He often talks about his plot for X-Men number one with Storm and Cyclops going thru random simulations in the danger room which didn’t make it to print. Editorial did end the Shadow King sooner than planned (thank god) and I believe X-Men was supposed to lose his body. When Byrne was announced as the writer of the X-Men, Claremont was announced as Claremont going on hiatus. Whilce and Jim Lee were terminally late on the X-Men, Byrne was scripting books with two days. Bob Harras replaced Byrne after Byrne went to Harras on how late the books were. Scott Lobdell and Fabian Nicieza were the utility guys and they got the regular title. Jim Lee and Claremont would work together on WildCATs, that doesn’t mean their time on the X-Men didn’t have tension.
for all the spit that Image got, I still love those initial comics that they made. They were every bit as good as what was coming out of Marvel at that time, and after they left Marvel, they were better than the stories that Marvel produced.
Meh, I think they were crap for the most part. I think most Marvel and DC was just as bad - but that doesn't make anything better. It was different and that was important. AND it was creator owned which revolutionized the industry - changed everything almost overnight. I will love and respect Image forever because of what they've made out of that company - just amazing.
@@JerkComic I was pretty young (early teens) when I started comics. I found the start of Image Comics titles ultra violent, it was not worth buying them, just off-putting.
@@LennyWu So I'm not alone! I just couldn't get into that stuff. Spawn looked neat, but then he'd hang a pedophile from the ceiling from meat hooks and I was out. Definitely not why I was picking up comics at that point, haha
Which is why I respect what comic people are doing now with doing their own thing Image did in the 90's. Of course they're getting the same heat all the people that forged Image are getting today.
They’ve constantly been innovators and pioneers and then things go sour with the talent involved in one end or the other and there’s plenty of examples for both. This is the way of comics and always has been. Seeing someone like DeFalco talk about Ditko and Kirby being replicable is pretty telling of how much they “care” about the talent there though that’s for sure.
@@JerkComic If memory serves, DeFalco is not the most fondly remembered editor at marvel to put it mildly. I seem to recall there being lots of stories about him undermining and outright bullying the talent over the years.
@@hobbes4011 he is and was a business man. A lot like Shooter. He did not care how famous how much money you brought in - nothing. He only cared about making money and the most of it that he could. He ended up working with Image later on in and even out put a book with them if I remember right years later.
Fundamental difference between Tom DeFalco and Jim Shooter was that Shooter felt writers sold comics, DeFalco thought characters sold them. Neither one held much regard for artists. They're both an interesting case study in what happens when a marginal comic writer is thrust into an Editor in Chief role during two of the biggest boom eras in Marvel's history.
The evil that I do do... yeah I've always been as much or more interested in what's happening with the creation of comics and stuff. As a kid that information was like nigh impossible for a kid to come bye, I didn't know about stuff like Comics Interview or TCJ. When I got older and started to really get into that stuff, I also saw the rise of the web and all these crazy little places and people doing incredible interviews and stories and sharing this stuff and UA-cam... that changed everything. Saw a few channels that were kind of geared towards a more journalistic approach, but coming from a background as a music journalist, I attacked these the same way I researched bands and stuff for interviews. I'd go back decades and stuff, read all those little interviews for that one good quote and stuff. That's the thrill of the hunt. I don't like making speculation, there's so much of it - the water is already so muddy. I feel like I have a responsibility to back up what I'm saying and vet information that I'm asking people to take on faith. It's a little much for some people but it has been incredible to see all the new faces coming through that seem to appreciate my OCD approach to this stuff. Thanks so much for the kind words, checking out the channel and especially taking the time to leave a comment!
Boy am I enjoying your videos. I'm tired of all the "HOT COMICS WORTH MILLIONS" channels. You literally have some of the same not common items on your bookshelf as me. That MAXX cassette tape, Batman little big book, and 90s trading cards...AWESOME work.
Sounds like we should have out if you've got Maxxumum Sound on your shelf sir, I've had to explain what that is to more people... Lost most of my original collection in a home invasion that happened about 15 years back and have been assembling shreds of my childhood nostalgia that were stolen since. I'm always unsure about my background, so many people on UA-cam have such professional looking shelves and backgrounds, but I'm like, "No, I can stuff one more Glen Fabry Deadpool Cable or The Maxx Wizard Promo Chromium card on top of Optimus Prime, haha... I'm really happy that there are some other people who enjoy the cluttered and somewhat hectic look of my childhood remnants spread across book shelves! I wish I could switch out the actual books on the shelf a lot, but unfortunately my shelving situation doesn't allow for it with the weird size a lot of comics are reprinted in, oh well - stoked there's at least a few other people out there that take the time to check it out and don't think it's dumb! Thanks so much for checking out the video and the channel, really exited you enjoy the content as much as you do! I get really tired f seeing the same old thing on UA-cam, and I wanted to try and present a more historical and journalistic approach to the comics field, so happy people seem to be interested. Really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment btw - helps out the channel immensely and I super appreciate it. Make sure to let me know if there's ever anything you want to see an episode about in the future, and thanks again for tuning in!
@@JerkComic I don know if your in California, but if so, you will be very excited for a certain upcomming event showing some really rare comic history items.
Same here, haha! Thanks so much for checking this out and especially taking time to leave a comment btw. means a lot to know people are actually watching and enjoying these videos and it helps out the channel a ton!
Mr. jerk, could you do a follow up episode to this one showing the fallout from marvel? Who replaced the image creators on the titles they were doing at marvel and what the sales figures were like after they left too, please.
That is a VERY cool idea. I know that Image actually ended up absorbing a great deal of the successful people that followed because this irked Marvel to no end who wouldn’t fork over the same amount of cash... or buy someone a Delorean to come and work for them haha. Thanks so much for the awesome suggestion and please, it’s just Uncle Jerk or Jerk to my friends haha!
Awesome video! Stumbled upon this video today, and gave it a quick watch! Loved those old Image days, and today they still stand as one of my go to comics house. Keep up the great work, appreciate the info.
Another upload, another superb video! Great subject matter, masterful script, and you're taking the cinematography and video quality to the next level I see. Leaps and bounds, my friend, leaps and bounds! Thanks so much for continuing to create thoroughly researched and excitingly dense videos that pay your audience proper respect.
Thank you so much for containing to check out my stuff - with the success of The Maxx I'm really trying o up my game, was just given a new camera that I'm going to test out at the last of the Sam Kieth interviews showed up so I can finally nail down the second part of the script in the next few days. Hopefully I can keep people interested and level up on my lack lusted editing and cinematography skills, haha. Now I just have to break down and pay for a lighting set up and a light sensor out of this next check and I can actually start working on the quality of the shots... oh, the joys!
@@JerkComic No one is more thrilled than me at how big the Maxx video went and all the new eyes it has brought to your channel! As I've been saying for a while, it was only a matter of time because your stuff really stands out, and it is so well deserved!. And I'd never call any of your work lackluster in any way, especially your on-point editing. It's not a about distracting transitions or constant cuts but rather pacing that matches the script and illustrating your point through examples, both of which you do phenomenally well. Out of curiosity, what camera did you get?
Thank you so much! That really means the world to me. I'm so happy you're enjoying the videos, I'll strive to continue to create content worthy of the incredibly cool viewers like yourself that take the time to check out my stuff and hopefully they get better and better from here on out. Thanks again for checking out the video, and I really appreciate you taking time time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it. Hope you have a killer day and make sure to let me know if there's ever anything you want to see an episode about in the future.
@@Falcon0311 I definitely never gave them a fair shake tbh. There was so much cool Image flash and I was really getting into like Keith Giffen and Lobo and doing a lot of back issue digging. I don't have an aversion to stuff that isn't from the big 3, what should I check out as a totally newbie?
Dude, you are awesome! You actually made me enjoy a story about Leifeld. Being an 80s kid who cut his teeth on Claremont/Byrne, Levitz/Giffen, Wolfman/Perez, Alan Moore, etc...not to mention Kirby, Ditko, Heck, Dillion before them...I couldn't care less about Leifeld. When his ugly, messy art and obvious writing took over the world, I pulled away from comics. Was in college at the time and had other things happening anyway. But your impressive research (really!) and full-on enthusiasm made me enjoy this story...which, admittedly, was super interesting as it turns out. Keep up the great work, man! I'm loving your channel.
Man reading comments like this really put a smile on my face. I'm not the biggest Liefeld fan either but I think there's a lot of great history and cool stuff that happened that gets kind of overshadowed by the crap show that was the spec boom in the 90s. Really glad you agree and found this interesting. Super appreciate you not only taking the time to watch this but leave a comment btw, means a lot to know people are actually watching these and taking something away from them and helps out the channel a ton!
"The X-titles had been dying a slow death for years" I dunno about that... do you have data to qualify that claim? By the end of '89 when Liefeld debuted at Marvel, Uncanny's average print run was around 600k (more than twice the number it had at that start of the decade). And according to the June '89 sales chart from Capital City Distribution, 8 of the top-10 books were X-titles. Maybe New Mutants was showing signs of decline, but the rest of the X-books were still dominating sales. Just a bit of a head-scratching statement in an otherwise fascinating video.
I thought that was a bizarre statement too. Maybe some of the X- titles didn't do so well, but many X-Men were aligned with other teams and overall were very popular. I wasn't a regular collector, but I got into X-Men and comics in general around 1989 and they were regularly available at my drug store news rack.
That was taken from a statement by Chris Claremont, Anne Nocenti and I believe Louise SImonson from a recent documentary. They used it in a sense that I thought was more aligning with low sales - obviously not the case - as well as attracting new readers. Looking at these numbers and listening to the comment again it is likely that Simonson and Claremont were referring to getting younger or new readers in? Then again, perhaps they just lumped Liefeld in with a few other things that preceded him by a few years. With it coming from Claremont's lips I had taken it as gospel surrounded by Simonson and Nocenti - oops. New Mutants was certainly dying a not so slow death but that was a direct market only book at the specifically used the term X-titles... weird. Sorry about that folks! I know little things like that can be annoying but hopefully it didn't detract too much from the video and at least now you know where I got the harebrained idea ; )
@@JerkComic Okay, I think I know what source you're talking about. Thanks for taking the time to clarify and make corrections, not many content creators would do that. You earned yourself a new subscriber.
redvitaminblue Much appreciated thanks for the sub! And no problems - interacting and learning are the reasons I started this channel. While i would never provide knowingly false information I’m far from infallible and always open to correction and an open dialogue. I appreciate that you were so respectful and brought something to my attention I obviously got wrong without being rude or even smug about it. You gave serious statistics you obviously took the time to research! That level of engagement and interest leaving a comment is the precise thing that drove me to start the channel so I really really appreciate constructive criticism and correcting where due and needed!
Thank you so much for the kind words, I truly try and go a little above and beyond with the details as I'm always curious about the little things you don't traditionally hear about. So glad there are other people who seem to enjoy this stuff as much as I do! Really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment as well helps out the channel immensely
I know! Everyone I knew. even kids that didn't read comics were into their stuff. Funnily enough, Sam Kieth was the only other guy I would add to this list. Everyone I knew who saw his stuff got obsessed with it, and them bam - he's got Maxx out at Image. I mean, they got basically everyone who was anyone for that company when they started!
@@smithereens1693 I love Keown, I hate Pitt. Even when we were kids my friends and I all thought that The Pitt was the best looking crap comic of all time. Then it just kinda, disappeared and then showed back up with Full Bleed and still made no sense. Years later when I found out Keown wanted to be a rock star not a comic artist it all made a lot more sense. The Pitt reads like something out of Heavy Metal and I think it would have been a lot better suited to something small and serialized like that. Don't get me wrong, it looked amazing, but that was just a plain painful read imo.
@@JerkComic You caught me. My friends that I mentioned were the passionate comic book readers. All I cared about was the art. Yes they were rockstar's to me...and when I found out that Mcfarlane was Canadian I was immediately hooked. A Calgarian kid living in Florida. Forgive me lol
@@smithereens1693 never ever apologize for liking what you like. Ever. Liking comics for the art is absolutely fine, there's plenty of stuff I own because I love the art alone. Like maybe half my Sam Kieth collection haha! Keown is one of the best Hulk artists of all time, so there's definitely worse stuff to be into IMHO. Pitt looked awesome, no doubt. I still remember him getting hit in the face and getting shot in the gut in that first issue vividly years and years later. Amazing work on that series. When he managed to get it out that is.
I just found your channel today and I've loved every video so far because they're honestly so refreshing. You give a well researched, entertaining, and unbiased report of events. The world of sensationalist media needs to take a page from your book. Keep up the great work.
Wow, you are too kind. I attempt to be unbiased, but I think it seeps in their subconsciously sometimes - though I trip to nip it in the bud when it does. I am so happy to hear that my OCD level of attention to sources and stuff actually interests other people. I would always see great videos and then be like, but where did they learn all that from? Who said that... This channel kinda grew and evolved from that notion. Thanks again for letting me know it's coming across, means a lot as I really do try and go that extra mile, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and it's amazing to read such kind stuff.
It's the banned comic, singular, not plural and I actually do talk about it. It's the book Marvel threatened to sue Rob over that made him start Image.
Thank you for checking it out and taking time to leave a comment! It means a lot that and helps out the channel more than you know. I remember when Image started and thinking how this could be the big one, the game changer we had been waiting for. Was hard to believe when they didn't just disappear over the first few years and then Maxx and Pitt happened and all that new blood started tricking in and it was a reality and an institution before long. I lived through it all, but I still have a hard time remembering the comic landscape pre-Image. And that says a lot imo.
Holy crap! I read X-men from 248 on and all other X-books, Spider Man and Guardians of the Galaxy (vol.1) when Image launched. Needless to say, I busted my hump to afford every Image book and go to the conventions. At the time, I knew it was to do with artists not owning the rights to their works, but I hadn't considered that they also didn't get a cut of the merch. So, Image itself was the ultimate team book! Valentino was the crusty veteran, and while everyone thinks Liefeld was the upstart, McFarlane was actually the upstart and Liefeld was the Golden Boy. Legendary story, man. I'm subbing for more.
Thanks so much! It really is a crazy story. I know people see the huge checks these guys were getting from Marvel and don't really get what they were playing at with the merch. If those checks are for the comics alone, I shudder to think what Marvel was making merch wise.
@@JerkComic Merhc is goign to be different though, or would have been. Those cool maxi-print tees and Classic X-Men cover tees, posters, blisterpack backs, etc. weren't ubiquitous, they were side items -- granted there were lots, but I'd wager there weren't even 100,000,000 side items even made that were associated with the 8.2 million printed and sold copies X-Men #1 (BTW, want some copies? lol). Marvel had print distribution locked-down as well as deals on paper, ink, etc. They didn't have distribution and printing of posters and tshirts for as much margin -- comic books are not expensive to have made, even on good paper, as compared to durable items like cardboard and plastic, cotton, etc. The titrating factor would be space in shipping. Comics kick volume to dollar ass compared to tshirts... still, who wouldn't want another 25% or even just 10% of that stack? They deserved it because Marvel broke its contract with them by not being upfront about the usage of their art during negotiations. And not giving them copies of the merch? Even DC still sends Ethan van Sciver boxes of merch when they reprint his work (he opens the boxes and shows it off!). Marvel has always been and might always be run by greedy liars. One should always get itemized invoices for you work and bitch about contract violations, no matter your industry -- I even get that as a private tutor and martial arts teacher. Anyway, love it, great vids!
@@themaverickblackbelt8054 Totally right about the cost, that's why official Marvel merch that they offered showed the mark ups to assure the margin they were used to haha. They obviously didn't sell 8 million copies of a Jim Lee shirt, but you have to imagine that just say McFarlane, Spider-Man averaged I think half a billion dollars in merchandise sales during the early to mid 90s. If say, 25% of that featured McFarlane images, that's some serious change. I think that McFarlane was being straight up though, if they'd just given them copies of that stuff there wouldn't have been this feeling of complete indignation on a lot of the Image guy's should leering at them like a monkey. I KNOW one of the big things that set them all off was the car sets too. Lee was NOT pleased when they did the Jim Lee X-Men series 1 and 2, and then took his name off of but still had him illustrate all the cards for set 3. They were making some decent coin on that, there were a couple of insanely good deals with Impel and Fleer specifically where Marvel made out like bandits and Impel and Fleer essentially did it to try and buy their way into a new burgeoning market of collectible cards. Sam Kieth even got real cheesed off, he brought up the cards in I think 4 interviews I read with him, and that's not like him at all. He had seen the numbers and they were good, but he was super steamed about them taking the "credit" away from him on the second Wolverine series he did and Lee for those X-Men cards that I remember off the top of my head. And I think that leads me to the last point. The respect, the name, the recognition. Kieth said that even if he wasn't making a penny off of the last Wolverine set he did, his name was getting out there all over the place in new places. It was on the box, and the cards, and the packs - and then BAM, Marvel starts getting scared that artists have too much power and they took it away. You loose a lot of potential name recognition, and that just doesn't work when you still have to do the cards anyways for the same thing you were getting before, but less the name recognition and in a sense, free publicity. The Image founding father's were well aware of the power of exposure and I think that might have been one of the major things about the merchandising that set them off apart from the profits.
@@JerkComic Wow! Ron White on Joe Rogan regarding John Paul Dejora's recent selling of Patrón for $5.1B said, "That sounds like a lot of money, but it sounds like a lot more money when you realiz the 'point one' is a hundred-million dollars." Yeah, any points you'd make on $½B in 1991 would be phenominal... at a .2% royalty, you'd get $1M. I didnt rrwalize it would be so much! Holy crap, the cards! I'd forgotten.Marvel always did wrong. I wonder about why. That wasn't helping their company at all.
@@themaverickblackbelt8054 They farmed the talent and then other companies traditionally worked them after they tired of the treatment and or wised up to what was happening. I know the numbers are literally insane. It's so easy to write these guys off as whining, until you start poking around a little... it adds up. Quick. This is why I find it rather despicable that several of the Image founders, namely McFarlane, would go on to treat people under their employ just as poorly after they founded Image. Truly seems they didn't want to STOP that type of abuse, they just wanted to be the slave masters in that scenario. Kinda disgusting if you ask me...
Haha, well thanks for stopping in! Glad you enjoyed and maybe there's some other stuff you might dig if you look around a little. Either way, thanks for taking the time to check this out and I really appreciate you leaving a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
I really do try. It feels like I'm repeating people sometimes, but I always hope I can put my own unique spin on things and go the extra mile with research and annotation. Can't thank you enough for the kind words, it's amazing to see the viewcount finally starting to rise after the Maxx video, hopefully I'll keep bringing people in and get some real traction soon as I'd love to invest a little more time, effort and money into the channel to take it to the next level if there's enough interest. Thanks again for the kind words, and especially for taking the time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it!
If you keep watching 'em, I'll keep shooting 'em! Thanks so much for checking out the video, so happy you enjoyed it - and I really appreciate you leaving a comment helps out the channel immensely!
I am for sure and man does it get old. Like, I get it if he stiffed you on a Kickstarter - that's legit beef. He can't draw feet? Get dafugouttahere. How many illustrators hide or can't draw feet? Lots more than I would care to admit. Thanks for checking this out btw - hope you enjoyed
Being a comic-obsessed kid in the early 90s, I thought I knew a lot about Image comics, as I'd lived through that period, had a subscription to Wizard, etc. But I did not know about this unpublished Liefeld comic and the Sothebys Auction. WOW. Very cool info here, thank you.
I know right? These videos becoming historical looks back in time still amaze me. I remember when Image started, seeing that first issue of Spawn in the racks at the LCS... he’ll even X-Force and Spider-Man 1 seem like yesterday. Funny how time flies, huh?
He, um, rubs me the wrong way in most cases as well... let me be polite there. I appreciate how talented he is and all that he's done, but I think his biggest selling point is himself. Not big on people like that. I prefer when artists speak quietly and carry a big stick as opposed to screaming all the time, but hey - we wouldn't have gotten Image with out him soooo, there's that at least, haha Thanks so much for the kind words and for checking otu the video - so happy you enjoyed and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
@@JerkComic Todd's "ego" helped Image survive many times over the years! When the distributors threatened to punish IMAGE for late books, Todd responded by saying he'd get his own FN trucks and ask anybody he could find to join him who were also sick of the distributors throwing their weight around! They lightened up after thatI Meanwhile, it wasn't too long later when Liefeld and Lee were doing work for Marvel! My opinion of any "celebrity" is not to sweat over their antics! They can't hurt me the way decisions made by politicians can!
@@pulsarstargrave256 wouldn't argue that he helped image survive but I just dont enjoy listening to him speak because I find his ego off putting, he's always had the numbers to back up his words. And that's totally true about distro, was aeous that time Image sey up their own in-house fines for soliciting work that shipped late as part of the corporate restructuring following the break from Malibu. They really were trying to get their stuff together, just wasn't easy for them haha
Fantastic video. Somehow I had never come across your channel or any vids before...remedied that with a sub and notification click! Off to look for the Hawk and Dove vid...
Thanks so much! UA-cam just started actually letting me into the algorithm not long ago, glad you stopped through and hope you found some other stuff you enjoyed as well!
I know Liefeld is controversial, (had my own run in with him myself in his private forum) And To be fair I do wonder if he is behaving a bit like a wounded animal and lashing out at any and everyone who doesn't just agree with him. But I think he is probably the best Salesman/Pitchman for a concept ever. I was totally sold on his Youngblood concept and how he pitched it to readers, I thought it was going to be well rounded and show the fame aspect and all, like in the pitch. Now the actual execution, not so much , But the idea was great. I didn't realize he had done it way, way, way, earlier than I had originally thought till your video though.
If Image had happened in today's world, Marvel would have had a thousand trained chimps on reddit and twitter calling everything they put out "problematic" in order to salt the Earth.
Marvel and DC tried this tactic with printed media back in the day. No one cared. They still sold a freakin butt load of copies - check out the peter David Todd McFarlane debate if you want to see how bad stuff got hahahaha
Original G1 Optimus Prime - no idea if there were sublines or what, but I know if was the first released version I could get my grubby mitts on as a kid, haha! That thing has been with me through getting kicked out of my house, 2 home invasions and getting robbed at gun point and having a bunch of my collection stolen (yeah, I grew up in a reaaaally nasty town haha) re Top Cow/Chaos - I could DEFINITELY work something out about Chaos. Pulido is super interesting and I remember when they were pushing that as the next Valiant? Man, Evil Ernie and Lady Death were everywhere... until they weren't. I know I have some good Pulido interviews around here, and I need to really do a piece on all the Image studios and there off shoots eventually. Marc Silvestri is all but forgotten today, but he was the most accomplished artist in the founding father's eyes, and then you had Michael Turner and a few other people that blossomed into a whole other thing. It's really too bad that Chaos nevre worked out, and I swear - outside of Captain Marvel/Shazam, or Miracleman, I don't know of any other rights bouncing aruond like that. It was nuts! I mean, what like 6 or 7 companies ended up with those rights between like 2002 and 2006/2007 except for Lady Death, Pulido always has been a clever dude!
@@JerkComic Chaos, Image, and Milestone is what got me into comics. It's sad to see all of those characters pretty much gone now but DC lame characters get rebooted every couple of years.
Wow I never knew how much marvel used their artists as tools treated them as such "a tool". Its disgusting to learn how an auction piece would see no dime to it's original creators, its horrible and corrupt. Glad I never got into comics.
Thanks so much for taking the time to check it out - really appreciate you leaving such kind words as well, really means a lot! Hope you've been digging the channel and thanks again for stopping through and btw, happy belated birthday man!
Did Marvel actually changed their behaviour with their future artists and writers? I see they sell a lot of TPB or HC and Omnibusses focussed on the writer and artists nowadays. And i wonder if they settled things with some of the image guys too, because a lot of them did return for a short time (including Leifeld return to X-force and Deadpool projects). Leifeld also claims he's receiving paychecks for his rights to Deadpool too.
Liefeld gets royalty checks for Deadpool and his appearances in stuff that he worked on I believe, not sure but I know he doesn't "own" Deadpool. Marvel wouldn't let that happen, but around this time they were expanding the royalty system and allowing artists to reap more, if still inadequate, resources from their creations. I also know he makes a metric f-ton of money from covers he does (he commissions his own private covers through Marvel as well as his regular cover work for several companies), appearances having to do with Deadpool, interviews, signings... after the movie, you name it! I also know that Marvel entertainment has been called out by name by Jim Starlin who refuses to ever work with Marvel Comics again, as having treated him with infinitely more respect and financial much better as well - I would assume this likely extends to Rob Liefeld as well, though that is simply supposition on my part. Marvel continues to attempt to downplay the importance of their artists still today, though in a bizarre way. They hire them young, hype the crap out of them, and then when they get "to big for their britches" they send them packing to DC where they're usually relegated to DC Comics B Cover variants and comic crawling back to Marvel under their own volition. Editorial has relaxed somewhat at Marvel, it's still a nightmare but not like it was in the 90s. The other thing Marvel does to try and mitigate any real control an artists name has, is associating them with a particular famous, or new hot character. They attach someone to a character, like say McFarlane to Venom, and then if that artist ever leaves - well who cares? You love Venom, right!?! Well he's what mattered, we're not even going to mention such and such artist throwing a tizzy because we would pay them a working wage and they left for DC.... I believe Tom DeFalco sums up how Marvel spins things quite well in one his quotes here. He talks about the public perception being McFarlane was given the adjectiveless Spider-Man book because he was "hot" or he wasn't getting along with David Michelinie, etc, etc. Nope. Marvel thought there was money to be made and McFarlane was available for the project. He says as an editor most decisions are monetary - and cold and calculated. Anyone can be replaced and that is Marvel's position. He uses Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko as examples, as shocking as that may be - but it is and always has been the way Marvel sees things. So long answer to short question, yes and no - but not really. Thanks so much for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed. Thanks so much for taking the time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel!
great work on piecing this together. I'm sure there are some things unspoken but for anyone who lived through the comic wars this was great to listen to.
There were a few little things here and there, but really - this hits almost all the main narrative points. If you ever are curious and want to learn more check out the SyFy doc Series "Serious Damage" about the founding of Image as well as the documentary, Image Revolution where you get to hear the story from the founding father's mouths - both very worth checking out if you want more small details and happenings from this whole situation. So happy you enjoyed - really appreciate you taking the time to check out the video and I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment - really helps out the channel!
Same here. I liked the way a few of their other books looked, but even then I don't think I really "liked" them. The Maxx is amazing though, if that's the best they ever do - it's good enough for me! Thanks so much for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed - if you haven't check out The Maxx episode I did if you enjoyed this and like The Maxx, might dig it. Thanks either way again for watching and can't thank you enough for taking time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
Definitely! The Maxx was my favorite. I even sent away for the Maxx 1/2 issue. Alas... all my comics are gone. Btw... new subscriber here. All it took was seeing all your Maxx stuff on the shelf. 😏
Firerocker wait til I figure out how to display the figure and my slab collection. I’ve got a decent amount of stuff back at this point. Lost my entire Maxx collection when I was robbed and have spent the last few years getting as much of it as I can back. Managed most of it but with the increase in the Ashcan values I’ll probably never be able to replace the Maxx 1, 2, and 3 blue and yellow ashcan editions... oh well I guess. What happened to all your issues? If you’re interested the trades and hardcovers are really cheap right now for maxximized so you could at least get the story back for a good price. Sorry all your old books are gone but I looked on the bright side, at least I have an excuse to collect it all over again, haha. Thanks so much for subbing and I really can thank you enough for taking the time to leave a comment helps out the channel immensely.
It's been a few years since I did this one but I think that was supposedly his first entire NM issue he inked on his own. Admittedly, could be TOTALLY wrong here, but for some reason I seem to remember something like that. Either way, hope you enjoyed the rest of this one, appreciate you checking it out
Great video! I never really heard the fully story behind the departure of all those artists. Sounded like there was so much dysfunction behind the scenes and by all accounts it still exists today. Seemed like there was some effort to mend bridges when Marvel asked some of those artists to come back and reboot some of their more popular titles like Liefeld`s Captain America and Lee`s Fantastic Four. Thanks for posting. Liked and subscribed!
They weren't mending fences so much as they were desperate. Marvel sales were declining and Image artists were the only thing people were talking about. in a mad dash to try and reclaim the throne Marvel just shoveled money at the only Image founders willing to come back in and cash in their beef sheet for a fat stack of money. Instead of saving anything it cost them more than they had and the sales figures were not only disappointing but required a continuity wide reboot to fix all the junk that had been devastated by Heroes Reborn. Man that was a dark time for the industry for sure...
Your knowledge and research on comics really stands out in these videos! Great job dude. I grew up reading comics during this era so I love hearing stories from the 90's! I'm so glad I found your channel!
Thanks, I really try and go above and beyond. I totally love the medium, always have and this is such a cool way to give back to the community! Never had stuff like this growing up, so happy to hear you enjoy it and glad you found the channel as well. I grew up in the late 80s and early 90s as well - love talking about this era of books, and there's so many interesting stories. Can't wait to get the Hawk and Dove Rob Liefeld Incident video edited and posted... that's one is plum loco. Thanks again for checking out the video, so happy you enjoyed and can't thank you enough for leaving a comment - really helps out the channel immensely!
Thank you! So happy you enjoyed the Maxx video and it inspired you to stick with the channel - really appreciate you taking the time to leave comments as well, really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it. Definitely will get a cool Savage Dragon Larsen piece put together when I find the proper info and some time to breath. In the meantime, hope you enjoy what I've got planned and part of The Maxx should be out in a few weeks, finally got the last of the interviews I was waiting on after blowing my entire paycheck on source material - AGAIN, haha. Thanks again for tuning in and hope you enjoyed this episode half as much as The Maxx one!
Ya know I had an uncle nicknamed "Uncle Jerks" I never really knew why people always called him that, but I do know he was banned from going to Disneyland.
I'm not allowed at the public pool anymore... I think that has more to do with kids running and crying when they see my face than anything else though. At least I hope. Does feel kinda drafty down there sometimes...
I remember my brother coming home with the new x-force #1 with the cable card in the plastic, I grabbed some money, jumped on my bike and immediately headed to the store for a copy, lol
I'll always count Aug 1986 as when I started comics, with Uncanny X-Men #208... And sitting here, now... Thinking back as I watch your video... I watched everything you're talking about in motion... And, yes... You nailed so much dead on! And it's wild to me seeing those "old covers - new again!" Lol, but wow, it was great to see them again!
So glad you enjoyed - really appreciate you taking the time to check it out and especially leaving a comment, helps out the channel a ton and means a lot! I worked at a shop during this whole time so I saw several angles as a collector, reader and someone selling the books and really tried to tie it all together - glad it seems to have worked, haha!
I never liked Rob's art style. However, Travis Charest became one of the most amazing sequential artists of all time. Too bad his skillz didn't include speediness, which cost him future books.
If he could have just gotten ONE series, or a few issues out on time - he would have been set. It's sad that they didn't start booking him a year, or months and months out like they did with Kieth and Adams knowing how long it took them to work. Charest doesn't seem like he was super great at sticking up for himself either, and that ain't never a good thing when you're surrounded by sharks in the form of tons of other self assured cocky artists
Just found your channel and loved what I saw! Immediately liked and subscribed and look forward to digging into your back catalog and for videos yet to come. This video is a story I am familiar with but there were a few details I had never heard before. One of the things I really like that separates you from other comic YT channels is the laundry list of sources being cited and the list of further reading for those who maybe don't know and would like to learn. So thanks for doing a great job and am looking forward to what's next!
I really try and go that extra mile with quotes, annotations and citing my sources. I just don't like when people on UA-cam do these enormous videos and talk about all this history and who said what, etc, etc. And then they don't even bother to mention where it's from. I know people are prone to exaggeration, it makes for a better story - it's hard to not take that road. But when you have to show the quotes and sources, well that gets a lot harder - and dryer. I'm so happy my slightly more collegiate approach to these types of videos seems like people enjoy. I always worry it's super dry and overly analytical, that's why I try and remain so energetic and keep the video moving at a steady clip... Thanks again for the kind words, really glad you enjoy the sources especially as the take a while and I'm always behind posting stuff and half tempted to leave it out as you're one of the first people to ever actually mention them.
Great job with this video man! Always great to listen to someone who knows what they are talking about. Listening to this just makes me feel sad about the state of comics today. If you had told me 20 years ago that I would stop buying comics I would have called you crazy. But the industry is as good as dead, Marvel hasn't produced anything of worth since Disney took over so I don't even call it Marvel any more. You could probably find an indie comic worth your time but I've just given up after being disappointed for so long. I do actually buy comics, but nothing new, just old stuff I haven't read yet. May I suggest you make a video about two of Image's other super talents that I didn't know anything about until later, Campbell and Finch. Those two were an unexpected and welcome surprise. What's your thoughts on the industry today?
First, thanks so much for the kind words! Really appreciate you taking the time to check out the video, and so happy you enjoyed. re J Scott Campbell and David Finch - I could probably come up with some cool stuff for them. I talked about a few other Campbell's covers in the past but I don't know an inordinate amount about him as I was never super impressed with his work once he "made it". I liked Danger Girl and stuff, but it seemed like his art got really repetitive after he became a cover artist for Marvel. David Finch seems like one of the most laid back and interesting guys to have come out of that whole movement. I unfortunately just don't have a lot of information on him. When he was breaking into the biz and at the top of his game there just weren't a lot of publications doing interviews and the internet was still trying to catch up with interviewing and covering information. I do love his stuff though, so it would be interesting to start poking around... will see what I can come up with as I assume there had to have been at least some decent coverage when he was doing that monster run on Moon Knight and a few other things. re The Comic Industry Today - I don't like most of what's on the racks... but I never have. I didn't like these original Image titles, never really have. I wasn't all that into any of the new stories from the big two even duriing the 90s. The art was great in a lot of cases, but the writing was just awful Always exceptions though. I like some stuff, the Cates Venom run has been fun - if it's getting a little out of hand at this point... in fact, I like a good deal of what Cates does. I read a lot of Boom, Scout, RedLine, Vault, etc stuff. It is just more fun and interesting to me. I've recently stopped picking up most new stuff but that's because I am out of room. Like nothing left - I'm walking through a tower of boxes to get to where I shoot these videos, haha. There's plenty of crap out there, but that's always been the case. There's a lot of new "hot" characters getting pushed at the expense of better storytelling and originality, again - this was the case with comics when I was reading them in the 90s. We're seeing the last gasps of what we traditionally see as the comic industry, something's about to change - we'll just have to sit back and see what it is. But I'll definitely always be open to new books that sound really original and interesting - Atomahawk was radically weird and different than anything I had ever read and that was incredibly refreshing. There's always going to be books like that which keep me at least partially invested in the week to week happening at my LCS... well, until they find me crushed under a box of comics in my back room, haha - good way to go out though!
What this story leaves out is that Marvel has a deal with these artist that they made a percentage of the sales of every comic they sold, so these guys with record breaking sales were also becoming very wealthy. So while Jim Lee may not have gotten a watch, he got a lot of cash from Marvel before he left.
McFarlane talks about that a lot. He will use that as a prime example of how Image WASN'T about the money... I don't buy this argument, but the fact that he took a pay cut when he started Spawn is true. He was making bank on Spider-Man. He just wasn't happy and making money, and he found a way to do both. Image claimed they wanted to help creator's, but really it was just about getting on the other side of the glass and helping out themselves with their own characters in most cases. Which is how you end up with stuff like the Gaiman debacle... This is why I pointed out McFarlane was already going to leave and have always wondered about Jim Lee who seems like a business man above ALL else.
I used to write for a music magazine, but when Wizard went tits up I wasn't sure I'd ever see another real comic magazine that I could write for. Never had a run at TwoMorrows publishing as they put out a lot of stuff - and never heard of your magazine before today. Looks super interesting! I'd love to learn more and either contribute or at least talk about it on the channel if it's as good as it looks. Drop me a line at so.ill.artsATgmailDOTcom - would love to chat with you more for sure... Thank you either way for checking out the video, so happy you enjoyed - super appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
There's been so much said about this, I knew that if I just looked deep enough there'd still be plenty of interesting and unknown facts that I thought I could make this work. Really appreciate the feedback, and especially you checking out the video in the first place! Stoked you enjoyed it, and I can no thank you enough for leaving a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
Have no fear - this will happen. I don't know if I want to trace his creation through Larsen's work out at Megaton or if I'll just end up doing a career retrospective based around The Savage Dragon for Erik Larsen, leaning in that direction. I have loved Larsen for a long time but I think he's the most underrated of all the original Image Founding Fathers apart from Jim Valentino, and I would love to talk about him and learn some more stuff about his career.... keep an eye out for sure.
@@JerkComic Erik was the only one who continued to draw/write a continuous book throughout Images history. And for him to fulfill his childhood dream of doing the Dragon for a career is an awesome story. And Jim's contribution is mostly unknown and underappreciated.
@@brianlarsen9952 Larsen is the one who impressed me, not McFarlane. McFarlane walked off Spawn basically right away to do other stuff, Larsen has turned SD into a world unto itself. I'll be so happy when he ACTUALLY breaks Sim's 300 record! As for Valentino, I still don't know why he gets so little love. Everyone's heard of and talks about everyone else from Image, but NOT Valentino... Such a nice guy too!
Thanks for stirring up old memories. I was 11 yrs old when Image books started to come out. Man those are some of my happiest childhood memories. I miss the days when simple things made me happy.
Simple things are just about the only thing that still DO make me happy, but comics aren't simple to me anymore - they're super complicated in so many ways so I feel you haha. I was at a shop when Image started so I remember those early days and the excitement in kids eyes - didn't really kick off for me until The Maxx started but man looking back, it was a hell of a turning point that's for sure. Thanks for checking this out, for the kind words and leaving a comment in general, means a lot and helps out the channel a ton!
Thank you so much! I really appreciate it. I think there's been a million things said about Image Comics and the founding fathers, but I never saw either Executioners or what followed really broken down play by play. So happy it didn't come off as recycled or stuff that you already knew - took a gamble on this one when I was writing it honestly and really excited you enjoyed. Thank you so much for taking the time to leave a comment as well, really means a lot and helps out the channel immensely - make sure to let me know if there's ever anything you want to see an episode about int he future btw. Thanks again for checking out the channel and taking the time to leave a comment - hope you're having a killer day!
Well you might be in luck then... had to wait on a few pieces for the next episodes to show up in the mail and decided since I already had the sources ready I would just drop that sucker. Filming some pick ups tonight and should have it out next week fingers crossed! Thanks so much for checking out the video and taking the time to leave a comment - really appreciate it and it helps out the channel immensely. Keep an eye peeled for the Hawk and Dove episode SOON...
Great video, but I did notice one innacuracy - you said the X-Men books had been dying a slow death before Liefeld came along. That isn't true - New Mutants readership had been dwindling and near cancellation before Rob came along and made it a hot seller, yes, but Uncanny X-Men was always a top seller throughout the 80s, it was a juggernaut that dominated the top of the charts consistently pretty much from 1980 on (before which it had been steadily climbing the sale charts pretty much from the first issue after Giant Size 1) and it was a rare enough occassion when another title would outsell it during that period, that places like Comics Journal would write news articles about it when it happened (a memorable example being when the first issue of the Nam came out; as I recall, the only Marvel titles that could really consistently compete with Uncanny's sales during the 80s were the licensed books like GI Joe and Star Wars). X-Factor as I recall was pretty much always a mid-tier seller throughout the 80s until X-Tinction Agenda/Portacio joined the book, where it also became a bit of hot title for a few years as part of the X-Boom when anything with Marvel mutants was pretty much guaranteed to crack Diamond's top 20.
You are totally correct - I took that information from an interview with Claremont, Louise Simonson and Anne Nocenti. I believe I heard it out of context, as in they were dying an intellectual death and Claremont was feeling stretched by that point, not sales wise. I usually try and vet my information through at least 2 sources, but dumb me, I heard Claremont say it with Simonson and Nocenti right there and kinda took it as law without thinking. I had a few people even post Comichron sales data, I was waaaay off on that one. While New Mutants certainly did better with Liefeld, none of these books were "dying". Sorry for the little bit of misinformation, was just a stupid trip up on my end, always gotta double check stuff like that! Thanks for chiming in and hopefully that little bit of misinformation wasn't too annoying!
You mean Jim Lee selling Wildstrom to DC? I am planning on doing a much more indepth look at it, but unfortunately Lee isn't very talkative when it comes to actual business dealings and it seems like there was a really humdrum reason; he was tired. He was tired of having to run a studio, looking after people, deadlines, imprints, infighting, and just the daily grind of trying to draw on top of that. He's been pushed into the same position now at DC and I think that's why he's stepping down. Jim Lee is a lot like Stan Lee at this point, I think he more wants to get paid for being Jim Lee than really DOING anything. And I don't mean that as an insult, I really don't. Dude hustled his butt off for decades and became perhaps the most successful comic artist of all time when things are all said and done. It's kind of a shame that he never did much to improve conditions or make a big difference, but I think he was just toasted after the Image years trying to keep stuff together and being a father to how many kids now? Man was a machine, and even machines break down I guess, haha
Dude, you get AROUND! You were involved with like all the major players at one point or another - just got your message btw, I'm out of the hospital and now have a semi-working understanding of how a video interview works, haha! We will make this happen as I'm rearing to talk to you!
I will try and do some digging. I know there's anecdotal evidence of what was going on from a lot of peripheral people involved but Jim Lee is notoriously tight lipped about any and all business stuff he's associated with. He doesn't even really talk about why he actually joined Image so fear of upsetting people at Marvel or DC, that's some craziness. I know the reason it happened, and how it happened, and it was a mess - but getting direction quotation from those involved has proven rather problematic as I've been looking into this since I posted an Alan Moore Wildstrom video almost a year ago at this point I'm sure. Keep an eye out as when I get the proper information and angle this is definitely something I'll be talking about! Thanks so much for checking out the video, really hope you enjoyed - and thank you so much for taking the time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it.
@@JerkComic Jim already said why he joined Image in several interviews. Main reason he left Marvel was because he was told if he left they wouldn't fly his wife out to conventions, (despite him being the highest selling comic book artist) they kept on threatening to whittle away the perks he was getting, so he left with Todd that day. I think it was in this book "Comic Wars: How Two Tycoons Battled Over the Marvel Comics Empire--And Both Lost"
@@rockon8174 He's sited a few different instances like that, but there was something larger at play with Lee imo. I don't know if he was trying to levy for better pay/negotiation, but he's also said in a ton of interviews, he was "bored" and that Image Comics, "just came along at the right time". Lee is a chess player and a supremely intelligent businessman. Nothing he does is impetuous. he just doesn't like to talk about the actual real big reasons behind why he does stuff. He's seen that blowback on McFarlane, Liefeld, Larsen, all of those guys - so seems like he steers clear and keeps people's eyes on the art and the work and the product. I respect the crap out of that, but it does make pinning down WHY he does what he does kind of difficult imo. Every once in a while he'll let something slip but he's a fairly guarded dude for as open and forthright as he comes off.
Was it that Marvel was scared of Liefeld’s creation or the fact that he basically ripped off the X-Men and tried to release it independently? I’m mean “The Exicutioners”? That was already the title of a HUGE X-Book crossover. Everything about that ad screamed copyright infringement.
Oh it was a blatant rip off - no argument. But was that why they came down so hard on him? No, I don't think so. There were other people doing essentially the same thing, problems were - they didn't work for Marvel and they weren't one of Marvel's highest selling artists. I'd like to imagine that Liefeld was never popular enough to elicit this type of response, but again and again the numbers and interviews and stuff all point to this fact. Strange but true - at least from my perception of the information provided.
Well, you're in luck. While I was waiting on the other Maxx sources to show up in the mail I might have finished this script and just might be sitting down to shoot it here in about 15 minutes! Can't wait to share this one with you all, has some really interesting stuff in it and hopefully it will be half as much fun to watch as it was to work on. Thanks so much for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed and I really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely and I super appreciate it. Thanks again, hope you're having a killer day, and keep your eyes peeled for the Hawk and Dove Incident video... it's gonna be a fun one!
I just finished the podcast of Rob Liefeld (Robservations) where he talks about his whole experience with the Hawk & Dove pages. I think it’s the episode titled “1988! Learning to Fly”
@@YanoEscueta I was so bummed out when I heard it because I had already released my video, and it legit came out while I was editing. Really worth checking out to fill in the gaps and I thought it was super cool Liefeld had nothing but nice stuff to say about Karl Kesel.
You keep watching 'em and I'll keep making 'em! Thanks so much for taking the time to leave a comment as well, really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it!
Liefeld is one of my favorite artist, people seem to forget that they loved his New Mutants and X-Force books, now all they do is criticize his art, now he is doing a Snake-Eyes mini series, got the first issue and love it.
It is a cyclical thing with him. People love him, they hate him - they love to hate him! I get tired of listening to people bash on him for no reason... so much so, that's all the next episode going up is going to be about - Liefeld, and the Hawk and Dove incident... That Snake Eyes book was cool, felt very much like cracking open an old Marvel GI Joe book that just happened to have Liefeld on art. And yeah, you would think especially with all the Deadpool freak out there that people would be a little more forgiving or at least remember why they liked his stuff to begin with. Seems like a lot o people just enjoy talking trash about something and LIefeld's an easy target since anyone will agree with you abut it so they don't look stupid since they like his work... ugh. thanks so much for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed - can't thank you enough for taking the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
@@MrBrutal33 he's not alone but I agree. He does some cool covers but interiors almost always have several panels that just make me cringe. Systemic problem that occurred in the field when people started learning ti draw from other comic artists anf nky any formal training or figure work...
I hope you do like a brief history/behind the scenes of the New Mutants or something like that. Rob’s run was ok, and I really like the redesign uniform he gave to the New Mutants.
If I talk about NM, it will probably be more of the Sienkiewicz stuff. I actually think that especially the McFarlane inked Liefeld stuff for NM was okay, but Bill Sienkiewicz has been an obsession since I was a little kid and if I get to talking about New Mutants that's where my brain is gonna go, haha! There's just no curbing that and somehow I haven't really gotten to do a good long Sienkiewicz episode... Need to fix that actually lmao
This is truth. I think a lot of people see the big paychecks and just assume these guys were throwing temper tantrums. That isn't the case. It's really a shame they turned around and did especially the same thing to their employees in a lot of cases as Marvel did to them though. I'll never get over the Gaiman McFarlane law suit... that just takes major balls to try and screw someone like that.
Thank you so much for the kind words, and there's no doubt Image changed the game forever. Really appreciate you checking out the channel, stoked you enjoyed the video, and I can't thank you enough for leaving a comment - really helps out the channel!
As someone who was a comic fan and horny teenager in the 90's, I can say I would have followed Jim Lee everywhere just because of his artwork, he drew the sexiest females at the time. He was the best imo, followed by Top Cow artists Marc Silvestri and Michael Turner. So if you wanted sexy comic characters in the 90's, Image Comics was the place to go.
This sums up a great deal of people who were reading and collecting at the time imho and I think was a big reason for the success of Image. It's really gone on to become something of its own and there are some great titles there now but it was all flash and art when it started for sure. When that second wave hit with The Maxx stuff started slowly but surely changing too though I think Thanks for checking this out, means a lot to know people are actually watching and enjoying these videos and I can't thank you enough for taking time to leave a comment, helps out the channel a ton!
I'll definitely be doing this as it is one of the only things I know of that Lee openly talks about in interviews. He's been very clear he was tired of being a business man and wanted to "do comics again". The best answer to one of the most monumental setbacks to creator owned rights in a long time, haha. I mean, good for Lee, starting the company, getting paid - doing what he wants. But it really felt like DC striking a blow back at Image all these years later and I think a lot of people in the fan community especially took it really personally. Lee is such an enigma really, his career is so prolific and he does so many interviews, but he always manages to skirt around anything that might prove even iffy or questionable at any time in the future. A masterful business man, which again, was a real double edged sword for him. Thanks so much for checking out the video, I hope you enjoyed and I will definitely be covering this so keep an eye on the channel. Also, really appreciate you taking time to leave a comment - helps out the channel immensely!
Thank you so much! This is what I like to read. Glad my other videos were interesting enough to get you to check out the rest of the channel. Can't tell you how much I appreciate you subscribing and taking the time to leave a comment as well - really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it!
He was not the be all end all that people want you to remember he was. He didn't even get the Spider-Man series because he was hot like they want you to think all these years later. McFarlane and Liefeld are two of the most polarizing guys in the industry and it's funny how it has served McFarlane so well while undermined Liefeld who has done essentially the same stuff. Love Image, but always feel like propel are spinning the story and trying to give this guys most credit and that guy... Liefeld came up with the idea, McFarlane got people organized and recruited Jim Lee, Valentino got the business stuff together, etc etc - it was a team effort and that's why the company succeeded and is still around imho. Thanks so much for checking out the video, so happy you enjoyed - can't thank you enough for taking time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and I appreciate it immensely!
@@JerkComic in my current era as a 45 year old, I think Valentino is the reason they lasted more than a year, people forget about the era when none of the books came out and the ones that did were all splash pages and no stories. But what do I know..
Storytime Noir well a lot if you ask me! I personally believe that Jim Valentino was the glue that held early Image together. He and Jim Lee were the only two with a real sense for business and only Valentino knew how it all fit together and how to actually MAKE a comic book. If you look back at the previous attempts at stuff like Image I think one of the major obstacles was that people were either amazing business people or amazing artists but Image had both and just came along at the perfect time with that initial bolstering of initial cash influx from the collectors boom that let them last out the horrible drought that has followed. Without Valentino there to hold the business side of things together I get the feeling the story of Image would have been radically different.
Did he do a GAP commercial too!?! The Levi's 501 thing was a HUGE deal I remember that. I called my parents in to see that lunker haha. Look look comics on TV! Was unheard of to me since all the old toons got canned from the 80s
He seems to catch the brunt of "not drawing feet", but other big artists at the time and after, all hid feet. Mignola did it all the time, Lee constantly did it. The difference is, they were able to compose their work better and hiding feet didn't look unnatural like Liefeld's. Plus, I think it lumped in with people critiquing everything else about Liefeld that people decided to make fun of the feet as well, but I guarantee you, look at everything Lee was doing at the same time and there's tons of hidden feet, he just did it better.
re Lee and others feet - But see, Lee knew he didn't draw them well and hid them while working on them. Liefeld just constantly either didn't bother to draw them at all, drew them incorrectly with no regard, or forgot to add them as he was, and is, constantly avoiding them. There's a pretty famous Captain America panel where a woman is missing the entire bottom part of her leg - you can tell Liefeld was like, I'll just add it later... and later never came. Inker didn't even bother as, well - if you've seen Heroes Reborn you KNOW why, haha. I'm not a Liefeld hater or anything, but he just refuses to grow up as an artist. Lee spent years relentlessly pushing and honing his artistic talents while mired down in the corporate world of 2 different studios AND trying to keep Image afloat. That kinda irks me. Liefeld just sat back and collected fat stacks - but that's on people, they keep buying his books... it's like Michael Bay. Everyone likes to make fun of him, but how much are those films grossing? There's obviously a LOT of people that like them, and this is Liefeld in a nutshell. I hate that he has become the poster child for no feet - you name me more than 4 major artists from the 90s that did feet right and I'll send you a free Giant Size X-Men, lmao! Even people like Sam Kieth were doing these bizarre enormous detailed weird feet (which I love, but still - they ain't anatomical, hehe) and characters were always in smoke or behind rocks so you couldn't see feet. Liefeld is FAR from alone. It's just that most of those other guys either tossed in the towel and gave up, or they actually learned... or at least got better in some cases, not to bust chops, but still. It's so "cool" to hop on the Rob bashing bandwagon these days I tire of hearing it. There are guys out there making a living as cover artists DIGITALLY TRACING and patchwork assembling other people's work. IN THE OPEN. That is insanity! Madness! People get all worked up because Liefeld can't draw anatomy and seeing the Batawang, but plagiarized work? No problems! :sorry for the rant/info dump, I just completely agree about Liefeld being the face for this stuff not making sense vehemently:
He wasn't the onlyone who loved pouches. I mean Cable WAS a pouch - Liefeld just drew arms and legs on him... and sometiems hands and feet to hold his staple gu-er, I mean laser! But for the record Pouch was a gag character poking fun at himself and I actually appreciated him owning his lackluster design skills. Then he went and pulled that crap on Major X... I tell you, I wanna give the dude a break, I really do. I wanna stop talking about him and every time I think he's going to grow up, that he has learned or changed or anything - nope. He goes at calls another professional artist a clown for a HIDDEN CAMEO in the background of a panel. Ri-friggin-donkulus!
My camera crapped out on me this week - but I'm filming this episode tonight, so have no fear you'll soon learn the shocking secrets behind the Hawk and Dove Incident... can't wait to finish this one up and post it! Thanks so much for checking out the channel and taking the time to leave a comment - helps out the channel immensely and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. Keep an eye on the channel for the Rob Liefeld Hawk and Dove episode next week sometime!
The x-men related books were at the peak of their popularity when liefeld started working on new mutants, and Claremont wasn’t kicked off of x-men, he left because he didn’t like the editorial direction marvel was taking with the book.
Talked about this in a few other comments but in a nut shell: that comment about the x-titles was taken from Claremont himself as well as Louise Simonson and Anne Nocenti. I can only assume that I either COMPLETELY misheard what they said or the editing made his comment completely out of context. The x books were doing great at the time. New Mutants was also already doing quite well and Liefeld simply propelled it into a top 10, maybe top 5 sales book but didn't "rescue any dying titles". Someone even took the time to share the comichron sales data which 100% shows how inaccurate my statement was. I usually use at least 2 sources for my stuff but I thought hey its Claremont he's gotta know! Whoops on my part. Though they set a record with Lee at the helm so it would have been their peak exactly, but not far off from it. And yeah my word choice regarding Claremont leaving the x-titles was not the best. I know he wasn't actually "kicked off". I get tunnel vision sometimes and forget to expound on some stuff. I meant that they basically indirectly kicked him off the book because artists were becoming the sales motive for many fans and Claremont had less and less say as editorial took Lee's side over his more and more. Sorry for the incorrect information as I said usually vet info through at least 2 sources where available but totally goofed taking Claremont's quote either out of context or misunderstanding it. Thanks for the heads up and appreciate the corrections - always looking to get better and better with each episode and can't do that without feedback and constructive criticism from people such as yourself. Hope that little bit of inaccuracy didn't sully the rest of the video to badly for you and thanks again for chiming in and taking the time to leave a comment!
@@iansmith8783 awesome so glad you enjoyed and thanks again for chiming in, can't know when I make a mistake without help from awesome folk such as yourself. Really appreciate you being so level headed about the correction as opposed to condescending or anything, rare thing to discover on the internet these days and always extremely welcome when I do!
JerkComic oh no worries. I just like talking comics with other true fans. Thanks for not being on “high alert” re: viewers sharing their thoughts, that is much appreciated. Again, keep up the great work and thanks for the video.
Ian Smith Same here. Never got why people seem to get so angry when they get behind the keys... I like learning myself and you only do that by making mistakes and learning from differing and opposing view points. Way easier when it’s a level headed discussion as opposed to psychotic ranting haha!
Not remotely true. Rob was always perfectly capable of drawing hands and feet. Just Google "Liefeld Hawk and pencils" to see his try out pages from 1987 that prove it.
For all the hate Jim Shooter gets heaped on him, Tom DeFalco is just as much of a d-bag when it comes to this kind of stuff. DeFalco is at least honest, but reading that - it was just like, "wow. That's why you guys think they left? They think they were more important? Not better pay, or royalties or anything? Ego? yeah that's sounds like Ditko for sure.. wtf." So sad to see such great talents marginalized so easily by the higher ups at places like this.
@@JerkComic yeah its amazing to me hearing what they said and did like the aucition part. And i thought "wow. And we wonder why the business gets a bad rap"
I would love to see Rob Liefeld's art after he went back to comic art school, and relearned his fundamentals.He could easily be a great comic artist, if he'd only work on the problems in his work.
But why? People keep buying it - he has no impetus for that kind of stuff. I mean, I get you, but like Skottie Young who I wish would stop with the Chibi crap. Especially at this point for Rob at his age, why try when you can make bank on what you're just meh-ing out haha
@homeaccount5943 so. So tired. And don't get me wrong, I actually LOVE Young's work prior to all that baby Chibi stuff, too. Was a big fan and it's like his sketches are the best stuff he does anymore. Gah
Loving your video's, man. Crazy how Image came together in those early days. Seems like a 50/50 mix of being written in the stars and just dumb luck. I hate how much of Images early stuff seemed like cheap clones of what Marvel was putting out, especially the X-Men, bit the industry as a whole, as you ppinted out in this video, was kinda of in a creative slump. Pretty happy with where the industry is at now though, except how expensive comics are. Ouch! But hell, you get what you pay for, and the overall quality of the magazines are MUCH better than they were back in the $1 days.
There's so much to choose from too, I mean - small publishers, big ones, indie, whatever you want. There's even some absolutely amazing webcomics... I get kinda confused when people talk about how bad the industry is these days as I just remember a ton of books from the 90s that were just as bad, it's weird to see how things have changed and perceptions shift as there's more and more information available to consumers and fans as time passes. Image definitely just came along at the perfect time and managed to stick around because they had some really savvy and intelligent people able to keep afloat on what other people couldn't have lived off of as a company due to their structure and stuff. Thanks for checking out the video, so happy you enjoyed and I really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment!
Great video, I have watched and read a lot about Image history and still enjoyed this video. I recently found your channel and really have been liking your content.
Thanks so much! I know there's been a ton said about them over the years, and I'm really happy to hear you still enjoyed this as I really toyed with the fact this might just be too well known to make a good video... Really excited you're enjoying the channel, I hope you come across some other stuff that's floats your boat and please let me know if there's ever anything you want to see an episode about in the future. Thanks again for checking out the video, and especially for taking the time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it!
Dude, I think you put WAY to much stock into Rob Liefeld's "art work". Even in the 90's I felt he was amateurish compared to people like McFarland and Lee and frankly, he was. He cut corners constantly and instead of developing any kind of unique look he just stuck pockets onto them. And lets not forget his aversion to feet.....
Or the fact he held a record for selling the most copies of a modern comic - he's still in the top 10. I mean, I am not what you would call a Liefeld fan, but just because I don't particularly care for his art style doesn't mean he wasn't instrumental to the foundation of Image. People like his stuff - it still sells how many controversies and times he's taken money and not put stuff out... people still love Liefeld. I'm not claiming to be one of them, or to understand it - but he has played an extremely important role in the evolution and history of comics in the past three decades.
I really did try and make it a comprehensive overview - took on a kind of life of it's own, like these videos often do. I'm really happy that it came together and you enjoyed it as someone who's heard these stories before. I thought that, especially for first timers, having a chronological timeline like this would be a great jumping off point to learn more about Image. Really glad you enjoyed and I super appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment as always!
What do you bet the 38 dislikes as of this message are Marvel editors from the early 90s (and as I read early Savage Dragon comics probably Peter David) lol
What do you want to bet they saw my face and ran screaming from the screen in terror with only time enough to smash that dislike button haha. No but my video quality and editing capacities aren’t up to par with a lot of people’s standards and I am honestly flabbergasted that people such as yourself are able to look past these shortfalls to the information and enjoy them. Thankful but flabbergasted haha.
@@JerkComic Don't sell yourself short dude, I don't know all the details of what happened back then, but unless you were pulling most of this stuff straight out of your tailpipe, its pretty good. As for Artist I remember it wasn't that long ago that the writers became the big selling point on books, and were advertised that way, and the artist were seen as interchangeable and a dime a dozen. Wonder why that is?
Now I want a copy of Hawk and Dove #5 with the original sideways art. Marvel was't all wrong about the characters selling the comic. The story and character has always been the part that has sold me. If those are both great and the art is bad, then I'm likely to pass on buying. If the art is great and and the story is bad, then I'm likely to pass.
You can see a selection of them on Rob's site under the Robsplains podcast episode about this incident which came out totally by coincident while was editing this. Wish I'd known it was happening but hey can't win em all. And you can always pick up that sideways X-Force Spider-Man cross over if you need a sideways Liefeld fix lmao
When Rob Liefeld put out 'The Executioners' ad, I don't believe for one second it was management fearing him and what Image could do to Marvel. It was more anger at the absolute arrogance and total lack of respect for Marvel who he was still working for. Here they have a guy producing 'X-Force,' a debatably hot title, and now he's announcing to the world he's going to do a knock-off comic for a would-be competitor...? Yeah, I'd be upset too. So no, Liefeld and his devoutists can make that claim all they like, your facts in this video clearly dispute Liefeld's b.s. Marvel was never quaking in their boots over losing any of them. Marvel and DC are like a factory with an assembly line. Where there's one there's a million more just waiting to replace. And I know, that's a messed up mindset to have, especially in an artistically creative place like comics, but that's how top-tier publishers are and have always been since the dawn of literary publication. And you're absolutely right, without Jim Valentino, Image would've quickly died because he was the only one who had any business sense. And to be honest, 'ShadowHawk' was the only comic I thoroughly enjoyed among the founders of Image. McFarlane's 'Spawn' was a cheap knockoff of 'Ghost Rider' and 'Deathlok,' so I stopped reading after the fifth issue. Lee never did anything for me, so I never bothered reading his book 'Wild C.A.T.S.'. Same with Liefeld. And while I liked Larson's 'Savage Dragon,' I wasn't overly enthused to buy his comic, so I've only read his book whenever I had nothing better to buy. I'm not all that confident to say Image puts out better work than DC or Image in 2020. Some of the stuff is decent, but for me a lot of it is on par with being as crappy as what DC and Marvel put out today. Really overall, comics are not as good as they once were. Every once in a while I'll see something that's a fantastic read, but it's not like it used to be when I was growing up in the early 90's.
re Marvel Scared: I tried to illustrate I didn't believe this claim either with the quotes from DeFalco about McFarlane being given Spider-Man because of an economic decision and the quotes about Kirby and Ditko being replaceable. If that's how DeFalco and Marvel viewed Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, there would be no hope for some punk upstarts like the Image Founding Fathers, haha. And it was New Mutants, he only did I think one issue of X-Factor (40?) and then some covers - but New Mutants started picking up and the sales on that book were definitely on a heavy upward spike. This is the reason they let Liefeld take over writing duties, ugh... As for them being galled by his arrogance, yeah - that was definitely part of it. There's an undeniable element of control there as well. There were a ton, and always have been, a ton of crappy Marvel imitators but they usually didn't stoup low enough to given them the time of day unless they thought it was going to affect their bottom line. My guess is the knee-jerk reaction happened due to the fact Marvel had just gone public and they didn't want ANYONE rocking the boat. Regardless of the reasons, that's not what Liefeld took away from the encounter - and if that's what empowered him to start Image, who am I to argue with that? As Corey Feldman might say, that's his truth. re Spawn: That book was just a rip off of everything. He moves and looks so much like Spider-Man in a BDSM outfit, and undeniably draws elements from a number of other sources - Dethlok having been one I had never actually considered until now, but makes absolutely perfect sense with the death and resurrection of a soldier angle. Interesting. I've got an amazing Jim Valentino story that happened to me I'm making a video about today that really expresses my feelings about the guy - just an incredibly intelligent, articulate, kind guy who newer seems to get the respect due to him for a myriad of reasons. Even from myself when I first met him, though this was completely unintentional and I was just too young to know what was really up... Savage Dragon is great if you like the book. It's not my cup of tea but Larsen has stuck with it, and I respect the hell out of that dude and his work ethic. No idea why everyone flipped about Spawn but Larsen is getting no love as he quickly closes in on Dave Sim's Cerebus record for REAL unlike McFarlane who simply half assed his way there replacing himself on Spawn after what, half a dozen issues? Such an over hyped and trite character... re Image vs Marvel/DC: Yeah I guess I'll just have to respectfully disagree with you there. I don't necessarily like 99% of what's on the racks right now, but Image consistently gets me to pick up first issues of new series and keeps me intrigued as they're not tied to the capes and cowls like Marvel and DC. The simple fact that you can get Superhero stories, noirs, horror, anthology, all of that stuff - cyberpunk and sci-fi, fantasy and stuff, from one publisher and it's decent is really impressive to me. Gun to my head I'd much rather read an uninteresting first issue of an Image comic than issue 1,045,677 of Spider-Man (obviously relabeled #1 for sales reasons since there's a new writer on the series and continuing the numbering for the series that it is apparently doesn't make sense anymore). That's just me though. I like weird off the wall stuff, and thinks like Atomahawk really set Image apart from me, I don't know what other comic company would have published that when it was reelased and I LOVE that series. Comics are art and art is subjective, so that's just my 2 cents, not worth much in the grand scheme of things, haha Thanks as always for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed! Really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment as well, love discussing difference of opinion with you and learning about new perspectives and observations I would never have come up with or made myself. Hope you're having a killer one!
@@JerkComic X-Factor? Oops! I meant X-Force. God, I see a lot of mistakes in my commentary. I'm going to have to rectify that, lol! I must've been distracted cause I typically proof-read before I post so I don't look like a dope. Anyway, I wasn't attacking your comments. You did make that abundantly clear. I was just expanding upon that notion, because I don't buy it for a second that Liefeld, McFarlane, or anyone else who went to form Image had Marvel quaking in their boots. And I would very much love a Jim Valentino retrospective too, so go for it. I've liked a few things Image has put out over the years, but I hate a lot of it because comes off as bland and contrived when I read it.
Yeah, kind of not hard to understand why this whole thing went down when you step back and look at the big picture. And Marvel was really excited about the sale. They had no clue it was gonna set off this chain reaction. All for the best I guess since we got Image out of the deal though, haha! Thanks so much for checking this out btw. Hope you enjoyed and I really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment, not only does it help out the channel, but it means the world to know people are actually watching and enjoying these videos I make and upload!
That would be the ridiculously cool Maxximum Sound. It's an audio drama of the first part of The Maxx done by Kieth and a guy names Stephen Romano which is basically a radio drama of the first few issues. It was a major template for the sound design of the cartoon, super cool piece that you don't see pop up too often. Good eye!
A raging ego. I want to say a super sack, but I honest to God believe that Liefeld was like, nope. No one tells me what to do lmao. Not that I don't respect that for what it is haha. I mean that dude gets NO credit for Image really and he's the guy who came up with it. McFarlane might have made it happen with the other artists but Rob was the dude to light that fuse
These guys were the heroes as a teenager and aspiring artist in the 90's. They stood up to the industry and created their own lane. Truly appreciate the backstory.
So glad you enjoyed - it is one of the true defining moments of modern comics, had a lot of fun looking back on all this stuff. Really appreciate you checking it out and especially you taking the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
They weren't heroes. They were spoiled children who wanted everything their way and threw a tantrum.
You did a decent job putting select non linear events into a comprehensive timeline. Thank goodness they all started Image. TY Rob for hiring me @ 16 to draw superhero books. Celebrating my 30th anniversary as a pro next year ;)
First off, thank you so much - this was a bit of a challenge but I tried my best to logically bundle stuff up and tell the story, glad it appears to have turned the trick. Second, for all the crap Liefeld gets - and he deserves some of it - I hate to see people forget all the good stuff that he's done for the industry. Third, that is AWESOME man! Congrats on making it in one of the most ruthless fields out there - would I be familiar with any of your work?
@@JerkComic I inked/finished a large portion of the Deadpool Bad Blood series plus did inks on Deadpool Badder Blood #1 *only* prob the only current stuff you'd be familiar with. I self publish a lot of books. I also inked the backup stuff of Rob's in that last Youngblood reboot. Pages were pub'd in various issues of that up through #9 then recollected in his Brigade #1 relaunch I hear? Can't confirm. Got links on my channel for my personal I.P. stuff. I came up as a McFarlane/Silvestri/Liefeld/Portacio/Lee fanboy.
Your artwork was sold for 40,000 and you ain't seen one dime of it.That would of enraged any artist , marvel really evil boy.
Yeah... I kinda think whether he wants to admit it, or say it out loud, that had to have reeeeally irked Lee. I know Liefeld and McFarlane were basically "over it" at that point, but Lee seems like he was really trying to make things work with Marvel until that night right before the Sotheby's auction where they told him he was "replacable". Not the thing to say to someone who's thinking about leaving your company and whose art is gonna make you a mint the next day on top of being the highest selling modern age comic of all time. "Marvel really evil boy" sums it up pretty well. Greedy SOBs is another way to say it... haha.
Thanks so much for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed - and I super appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
Actually, it's childish. In the So Called Fine Art world works changed ownership many times after the artist received their original fee! The return of original artwork in the commercial arts wasn't always guaranteed unless stated in a contract!
@@pulsarstargrave256 comics are not the fine art world - it's always been a matter of contention for comics. While I would tend to agree that legally there's little argument here, comics are a small business and people wanted Kirby to get his art back because they liked him and they thought it was his. This eventually extended to other artists but it's a very strange and murky subject. Howard Chaykin says as much during his comic journal interview in the 80s. Right or wrong, it was one of the polarizing moments in the industry that led to Image!
@@JerkComic "comics are not the fine art world" what an ironic statement! Anyway, I stand by my original statement, the return of original art is NOT guaranteed! As far as the commercial "arts" are concerned the publishing house or ad agency are not hiring artists ( or writers) for the privilege of doing work for them, the artists are HIRED HANDS, work for hire individuals and the organizations own the product or the work under work for hire conditions! If an artist wants the original work returned, they have to negotiate for this when and if the company doesn't have an automatic return policy!
@@pulsarstargrave256 Ironic in what way? This isn't just my opinion. When Bernard Krigstein tried to form the Society of Comic Book Illustrators this was actually a big debate among people who were artists working in the field. The name was a big point of contention as it called them, illustrators and not artists. Krigstein saw this as a way to separate comic and other commercial artists from the fine arts world and community by the publishers. A struggle that would continue for decades. There's been plenty of well known names that have made their way into "fine art galleries" like Frazetta and Gogos, but this has been an ongoing struggle for comic artists, or illustrators rather, haha. I don't mean to cast dispersion on comic art, I obviously hold it in extremely high regard - but it's only been very recently that people have begun to appreciate the beauty, talent and commercial value of this original art.
re Original Art: sorry maybe I was unclear, was agreeing with you. The return of art is far from guaranteed, or rather was. Most of the major disagreements over the ownership of comic art arose from agreements where the ownership of the original art was rather ambiguous. There were plenty of artists that didn't want it back, or didn't think it was worth the hassle of trying - then there were people like Frazetta who kept all but one original from his entire career. Never meant to imply the return of art was "guaranteed" - far from it. It was a long and lengthy battle for most of those guys because the water was so murky when it came to the original contracts and I think a lot of personal feelings seeped into the arguments. I personally think artists should get their art back unless you agree that you're buying it as part of the original agreement, but I definitely am not a publisher and I would also agree that this is something that needs to be worked out and decided before any contracts are signed.
*19:35** god i miss **_"wizard"_** magazine.*
Haha, man I loved it when I was a kid even though I knew so much of it was crap! I lost my collection years back and have been picking up issues that are important that I remember the past few years. Have you checked out any of the Cartoonist Kayfabe Wizard Magazine videos? They started with issue one and are doing deep dives into all the issues - though they have really slowed down on posting them since the channel really took off.
@@JerkComic *i think we all knew it was crap mag. but it still drove me toward the market regularly.*
@@maddoxtolliver Oh yeah, it got me into some GREAT books to, no crap. Palmer's Picks was awesome and they did talk to some neat people like their coverage of Scud and a few other things that ever managed above cult status but really should have. Plus, there was basically that and Hero out at the time that weren't periodical historical fanzine type publications like Alter Ego or the Comics Journal, definitely helped get a lot of people into and keep a lot of other people into comics.
@@crusty_breads there's likely no way Image and Valiant would have happened otherwise. Learning Garub Shameles, ahem Shamus was at the Image founding meetings was VERY interesting to me.
@@crusty_breads not that I have a few of them up on my shelf behind me... I want to not care. But they're Maxx stuff lmao, damn you Wizard!
Here am I at 30yo and reliving my 90s comic book childhood. Thank you for making these videos. Not only is it a trip down memory lane but I learning something new each time. Just came off The MaXX video to this one. Love that series and it's a shame that Sam Keith had a lot of inner demons messing with his confidence. The first chapter of Volume 6 with the crayon artist really came from a real place.
Those last 14 issues are straight from the gut and you can tell. He's working out some real demons having to do with his wife and some other stuff, was really interesting to read The Maxx knowing so much more about Kieth, becomes painfully evident that he was just poring his guts out over those two years or so... might have been one of the reasons he quit so abruptly when he felt like he wasn't getting as warm a reception anymore.
Thanks so much for checking out the video, really happy you're enjoying the channel - and thanks so much for taking the time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it!
Wow, well here I am at 57 and reliving my comic book young adulthood!
I agree with Todd money wasn’t the issue it’s about respecting the artist work, and a show of appreciation
Now if only McFarlane had done the same thing when he went over to Image I could totally get behind him...
@@JerkComicexactly. If the rumors were true he was kind of a tyrant. But it could all be just made up.
Remember when Mtv had liquid tv with the Maxx
Man, I love the Maxx cartoon and liquid television. Maxx was Oddities not Liquid Television though. I do not know what kind of Mandala effect has transpired but it was part of the “wonderment that is MTV’s Oddities!” The Head is the only other oddity cartoon that I know of. Was realllly bummed when MTV failed to pick the Maxx back up and then unceremoniously got rid of Oddities. So funny because not a single person seems to remember Oddities and they all think it was part of Liquid Television... if I didn’t still have the original bumpers I’d think I was crazy. Pretty sure I stuck the opening animation sequence from Oddities in here but you can check it out with full narration here in case you wanna check it out and let those memories come flooding back haha ua-cam.com/video/JlkzHSDoMpc/v-deo.html
Thanks so much for checking out the video so glad you enjoyed and I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to leave a comment really appreciate it and it helps out the channel immensely!
@@JerkComic thats right. it had the show The Head
@@michaelstreeto3889 the only other animated show MTV ever aired aside from Aeon Flux that was as strange as The Maxx. I've actually long wondered what would have happened if The Maxx HAD been part of Liquid Television. Way more exposure, and seems like a lot of stuff there has had much more staying power because the program really seems to stick out as a whole in their memory.
@@JerkComic I remember oddities. I actually saw a video the other day where someone recorded a show with the commercials, and oddities was shown in teh commercials.
@@JerkComic I was going to say the same thing, when I saw that comment
As a comic collector it was an exciting time, comic books were becoming more accepted and Wizard magazine in those early years really kept the fanboys up to date on the behind the scenes of the comic industry. One good thing I liked about Liefeld was his persistence to make it into comics.
Dude had mad hustle and drive! For all the crap people talk about Liefeld, it seems like a lot of people just can't help but get swept up in that energy when they meet him. That being said, he's a total flake with a massive mouth and tends to get himself into trouble as much as he succeeds he falls flat on his face these days. Kinda miss the 90s outlaw, anything goes feel - and Wizard... boy does that take me back. I got sucked into UA-cam because of Cartoonist Kayfabe's Wizard reviews and started this channel because I was spending so much time watching stuff I wanted to start making it. Who would have ever thought Wizard would prove to be one of the most important publications in my life, haha? Wow...
Thanks so much for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed, and I really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
This trips me out. Originally, I thought it was McFarlane who the main ringleader behind Image comics. Never knew it was Liefeld who did all the work and McFarlane was just the mouthpiece. How long did McFarlane work on Spawn before he decided to quit drawing and writing the book? I want to say less than 5 years.
I think it was less than 2 years actually, like 20 issues or so? Then he stepped back for Capullo who is the artist I think most people ACTUALLY think of when they see Spawn unless they picture that cover to issue 1 at this point, haha. And McFarlane was extremely important, he got guys like Jim Lee on board - but he would never have taken that insane initial leap that Liefeld did. Liefeld just had a big enough ego that when editorial came down on him like a ton of bricks over Executioners, he was gonna do something about it. Valentino and Larsen I think often get glossed over too, because Larsen is the only reason that McFarlane really got on board so quick - he knew that dude's work ethic and what he was capable of. Valentino was integral to actually getting books out as he was the only person with any real experience in these regards and Lee helped keep the legitimate face on the business during those first few rocky years when no one could get a book out on time with a gun to their head... I don't mean to downplay the importance of any of the founding fathers, but I think that people's distaste for Liefeld has tainted the history of the company. I mean, the official bio book with monster interviews I repeatedly cite here, Road To Independence - they didn't even interview Liefeld for it because he was on the outs with the company. Gets glossed over and it shouldn't - they were all integral in their own unique ways to Image imo
When I saw the cover to Spawn #8 I could not "unsee" Spider-Man #1. Still sticks with me after all these years.
That blows my mind honestly, i thought McFarland was the originator as well of image comics.. wow but still a huge fan since i was in high school in the mid 90's
@@elvinocasio1518 Liefeld couldn't have done it without McFarlane. Larsen and Valentino MIGHT have followed him, Jim Lee and Marc Silvesti followed McFarlane and MdFrlane was the face of Image for a looong time. Image could never have worked without all the pieces. It just so happens that Rob Liefeld had a big enough ego to do something about it when editorial came down on his head like a ton of bricks. I'd never diminish any of the founding father's roles, but Liefeld I think gets kinda short changed sometimes because he can be unpopular with a lot of people for a host of reasons.
To be fair, one of the reasons "X-Force #1" sold so well was because they were poly-bagged with cards. You needed to get each of six cards to make a complete set. And at that time, IIRC, individual cards were valued at $1.50, and the whole set was valued at $15.00.
So, it raises a question. Did it legitimately sell 5,000,000 copies? Or did it sell +/- 1,000,000 of each copy with a particular card? Unlike Todd McFarlane's Spider-Man, which came with one cover...
Not to be THAT guy, but there are an INSANE amount of versions of that Spider-Man 1 cover. Gold silver, poly bagged, unbagged, Platinum, on and on and on - bad comparison imo, but I totally get you. Do I think it "legitimately" sold that many? I don't know. Do you only count reader copies, with the collector market the way it is now - does that mean that maybe 1 out of every 10 books is actually "sold"? That's a hard thing to quantify but variant covers have been a nasty and slippery slope. They did the same thing for X-Men 1 with Lee and I think like 5 covers too, all the "record breakers".
I do remember that New Mutants run. Rob Liefeld really did lift up the New Mutants book. I really enjoyed that run as a kid.
I really liked Cable as a kid, and Deadpool turned into something completely different and really interesting when written properly. I also did enjoy this Hawk and Dove series, his early stuff where he was putting his back into is definitely decent when he's got the right inker and colorist working on his stuff. At the time though I was just salty and Sienkiewicz wasn't on NM anymore, I still think that might be my favorite cover run on a Marvel title ever - didn't give Liefeld or NM a fair shake at the time because of it.
@@JerkComic That makes sense because a buddy of mine as a kid was poking fun at me. He loved the Seinkiewicz work too on NM. I just didn't appreciate Bill's work back then. Looking back Bill's work was really special on NM. Really special. Thanks for taking the time out to reply.
@@TheReal_DeanD No worries that's why I started this channel! And I think few people were aware of just HOW special it was. He was doing things I'd never seen, never even dreamed were possible with comics art - the way he integrated people like Ralph Steadman and Bacon into his work was something I'd never seen before. Thank god Shooter let it fly even though he hated those covers and did not get the art at all, haha. Another thing we owe Louise Simonson for - what an unsung hero of comics she is!
The compelling stories behind comics are almost as entertaining as what goes on in the pages themselves
Amen to this, that's like the entire mantra behind my channel. I'm as obsessed with how and why things happened behind the scenes as in the books, haha. The characters behind them are almost always more interesting anyways! Thanks so much for checking this out, really appreciate you leaving a comment as well - helps out the channel more than you know and means a lot to know people are actually watching and enjoying these videos I spend so long on!
Claremont wasn't kicked off X-Men for Jim Lee, he left because of interference from editorial. Byrne filled in as writer for 4-5, then Lee and Scott Lobdell. Chris Claremont and Lee worked together on WildCats a year or two later and the Huntsmen was slated as Claremont's creator owned titles for Image.
You are absolutely correct. However after 30 years of reading Claremont interviews more than any other professional here's how I came to this conclusion. The editorial interference that was happening at the time, at least in Claremont's eyes especially 20 years ago, was all aimed at making the artists not the writers happy and because he had a tenuous grasp on the X-titles by that point he finally just got exasperated about Marvel listening to someone like Jim Lee who was a young turk in his eyes, than himself, he could no longer work for the title - and he let this be known to Marvel. They did nothing to help keep him around and instead shooed him off pretty much. Claremont obviously never took umbrage against Jim Lee, it wasn't his fault Marvel listened to him and he had ideas about the series - that was Marvel editorial. So yeah, kinda poetic license that I should have changed up but that's my line of reasoning there...
Thanks so much for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed - really appreciate the feedback, always cool to learn new stuff and talk to people interested in the same things! Thank you for taking the time to leave a comment btw, I really appreciate it and it helps out the channel immensely.
@@JerkComic Just found your channel with The Maxx video, can't wait for part two
Working on it now, had to wait on a few things to show up in the mail and go back to the drawing board with the script after reading an interview that changed what I thought I knew about the origins of The Maxx. Got a few smaller pieces I'm finishing in the meantime as I refuse to rush part 2 and sacrifice quality. Thanks again for checking out the video and taking time to interact- it's the whole reason I started this channel.
@@JerkComic i was about to post the same thing I just watched the whole 50 minute video... patiently waiting
Cincinnati James Jim Lee changed the direction of Claremont’s stories, so less and less of Claremont ideas were making it into the book. Bob Harras and Lee wanted the original X-Men and. Xavier back in the book. Claremont tried to work with it,, but he felt it was a step back. He often talks about his plot for X-Men number one with Storm and Cyclops going thru random simulations in the danger room which didn’t make it to print. Editorial did end the Shadow King sooner than planned (thank god) and I believe X-Men was supposed to lose his body. When Byrne was announced as the writer of the X-Men, Claremont was announced as Claremont going on hiatus. Whilce and Jim Lee were terminally late on the X-Men, Byrne was scripting books with two days. Bob Harras replaced Byrne after Byrne went to Harras on how late the books were. Scott Lobdell and Fabian Nicieza were the utility guys and they got the regular title. Jim Lee and Claremont would work together on WildCATs, that doesn’t mean their time on the X-Men didn’t have tension.
for all the spit that Image got, I still love those initial comics that they made. They were every bit as good as what was coming out of Marvel at that time, and after they left Marvel, they were better than the stories that Marvel produced.
Meh, I think they were crap for the most part. I think most Marvel and DC was just as bad - but that doesn't make anything better. It was different and that was important. AND it was creator owned which revolutionized the industry - changed everything almost overnight. I will love and respect Image forever because of what they've made out of that company - just amazing.
@@JerkComic I was pretty young (early teens) when I started comics. I found the start of Image Comics titles ultra violent, it was not worth buying them, just off-putting.
@@LennyWu So I'm not alone! I just couldn't get into that stuff. Spawn looked neat, but then he'd hang a pedophile from the ceiling from meat hooks and I was out. Definitely not why I was picking up comics at that point, haha
Which is why I respect what comic people are doing now with doing their own thing Image did in the 90's. Of course they're getting the same heat all the people that forged Image are getting today.
@@ExeErdna You put a smile on my face there. Well put!
Marvel has such a rich history of shooting themselves in the foot. It's amazing they're still a company at all.
They’ve constantly been innovators and pioneers and then things go sour with the talent involved in one end or the other and there’s plenty of examples for both. This is the way of comics and always has been. Seeing someone like DeFalco talk about Ditko and Kirby being replicable is pretty telling of how much they “care” about the talent there though that’s for sure.
@@JerkComic If memory serves, DeFalco is not the most fondly remembered editor at marvel to put it mildly. I seem to recall there being lots of stories about him undermining and outright bullying the talent over the years.
@@hobbes4011 he is and was a business man. A lot like Shooter. He did not care how famous how much money you brought in - nothing. He only cared about making money and the most of it that he could. He ended up working with Image later on in and even out put a book with them if I remember right years later.
@@JerkComic Now that last bit I did not know. Definitely an example of "funny how things shake out"
Fundamental difference between Tom DeFalco and Jim Shooter was that Shooter felt writers sold comics, DeFalco thought characters sold them. Neither one held much regard for artists. They're both an interesting case study in what happens when a marginal comic writer is thrust into an Editor in Chief role during two of the biggest boom eras in Marvel's history.
Man this channel is really good, informative and hosted by someone who will do the slog to investigate and do more than report rumors.
Great job man!
The evil that I do do... yeah I've always been as much or more interested in what's happening with the creation of comics and stuff. As a kid that information was like nigh impossible for a kid to come bye, I didn't know about stuff like Comics Interview or TCJ. When I got older and started to really get into that stuff, I also saw the rise of the web and all these crazy little places and people doing incredible interviews and stories and sharing this stuff and UA-cam... that changed everything. Saw a few channels that were kind of geared towards a more journalistic approach, but coming from a background as a music journalist, I attacked these the same way I researched bands and stuff for interviews. I'd go back decades and stuff, read all those little interviews for that one good quote and stuff. That's the thrill of the hunt. I don't like making speculation, there's so much of it - the water is already so muddy. I feel like I have a responsibility to back up what I'm saying and vet information that I'm asking people to take on faith. It's a little much for some people but it has been incredible to see all the new faces coming through that seem to appreciate my OCD approach to this stuff. Thanks so much for the kind words, checking out the channel and especially taking the time to leave a comment!
Boy am I enjoying your videos. I'm tired of all the "HOT COMICS WORTH MILLIONS" channels. You literally have some of the same not common items on your bookshelf as me. That MAXX cassette tape, Batman little big book, and 90s trading cards...AWESOME work.
Sounds like we should have out if you've got Maxxumum Sound on your shelf sir, I've had to explain what that is to more people... Lost most of my original collection in a home invasion that happened about 15 years back and have been assembling shreds of my childhood nostalgia that were stolen since. I'm always unsure about my background, so many people on UA-cam have such professional looking shelves and backgrounds, but I'm like, "No, I can stuff one more Glen Fabry Deadpool Cable or The Maxx Wizard Promo Chromium card on top of Optimus Prime, haha... I'm really happy that there are some other people who enjoy the cluttered and somewhat hectic look of my childhood remnants spread across book shelves! I wish I could switch out the actual books on the shelf a lot, but unfortunately my shelving situation doesn't allow for it with the weird size a lot of comics are reprinted in, oh well - stoked there's at least a few other people out there that take the time to check it out and don't think it's dumb!
Thanks so much for checking out the video and the channel, really exited you enjoy the content as much as you do! I get really tired f seeing the same old thing on UA-cam, and I wanted to try and present a more historical and journalistic approach to the comics field, so happy people seem to be interested. Really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment btw - helps out the channel immensely and I super appreciate it. Make sure to let me know if there's ever anything you want to see an episode about in the future, and thanks again for tuning in!
@@JerkComic I don know if your in California, but if so, you will be very excited for a certain upcomming event showing some really rare comic history items.
This was excellent and surprising. Glad I found your channel.
Same here, haha! Thanks so much for checking this out and especially taking time to leave a comment btw. means a lot to know people are actually watching and enjoying these videos and it helps out the channel a ton!
Mr. jerk, could you do a follow up episode to this one showing the fallout from marvel? Who replaced the image creators on the titles they were doing at marvel and what the sales figures were like after they left too, please.
That is a VERY cool idea. I know that Image actually ended up absorbing a great deal of the successful people that followed because this irked Marvel to no end who wouldn’t fork over the same amount of cash... or buy someone a Delorean to come and work for them haha. Thanks so much for the awesome suggestion and please, it’s just Uncle Jerk or Jerk to my friends haha!
Awesome video! Stumbled upon this video today, and gave it a quick watch!
Loved those old Image days, and today they still stand as one of my go to comics house.
Keep up the great work, appreciate the info.
Another upload, another superb video! Great subject matter, masterful script, and you're taking the cinematography and video quality to the next level I see.
Leaps and bounds, my friend, leaps and bounds!
Thanks so much for continuing to create thoroughly researched and excitingly dense videos that pay your audience proper respect.
Thank you so much for containing to check out my stuff - with the success of The Maxx I'm really trying o up my game, was just given a new camera that I'm going to test out at the last of the Sam Kieth interviews showed up so I can finally nail down the second part of the script in the next few days. Hopefully I can keep people interested and level up on my lack lusted editing and cinematography skills, haha. Now I just have to break down and pay for a lighting set up and a light sensor out of this next check and I can actually start working on the quality of the shots... oh, the joys!
@@JerkComic No one is more thrilled than me at how big the Maxx video went and all the new eyes it has brought to your channel! As I've been saying for a while, it was only a matter of time because your stuff really stands out, and it is so well deserved!.
And I'd never call any of your work lackluster in any way, especially your on-point editing. It's not a about distracting transitions or constant cuts but rather pacing that matches the script and illustrating your point through examples, both of which you do phenomenally well.
Out of curiosity, what camera did you get?
You are quickly becoming one of my favorite comics channels.
Thank you so much! That really means the world to me. I'm so happy you're enjoying the videos, I'll strive to continue to create content worthy of the incredibly cool viewers like yourself that take the time to check out my stuff and hopefully they get better and better from here on out. Thanks again for checking out the video, and I really appreciate you taking time time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it. Hope you have a killer day and make sure to let me know if there's ever anything you want to see an episode about in the future.
Malibu had good writing until Marvel tanked them.
@@Falcon0311 I definitely never gave them a fair shake tbh. There was so much cool Image flash and I was really getting into like Keith Giffen and Lobo and doing a lot of back issue digging. I don't have an aversion to stuff that isn't from the big 3, what should I check out as a totally newbie?
That was a really cool story. You never always think about the circumstances that create these companies but they’re riveting to learn about.
They are for me that's for sure, really happy you enjoyed and I super appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment really helps out the channel
Dude, you are awesome! You actually made me enjoy a story about Leifeld. Being an 80s kid who cut his teeth on Claremont/Byrne, Levitz/Giffen, Wolfman/Perez, Alan Moore, etc...not to mention Kirby, Ditko, Heck, Dillion before them...I couldn't care less about Leifeld. When his ugly, messy art and obvious writing took over the world, I pulled away from comics. Was in college at the time and had other things happening anyway. But your impressive research (really!) and full-on enthusiasm made me enjoy this story...which, admittedly, was super interesting as it turns out. Keep up the great work, man! I'm loving your channel.
Man reading comments like this really put a smile on my face. I'm not the biggest Liefeld fan either but I think there's a lot of great history and cool stuff that happened that gets kind of overshadowed by the crap show that was the spec boom in the 90s. Really glad you agree and found this interesting. Super appreciate you not only taking the time to watch this but leave a comment btw, means a lot to know people are actually watching these and taking something away from them and helps out the channel a ton!
"The X-titles had been dying a slow death for years"
I dunno about that... do you have data to qualify that claim? By the end of '89 when Liefeld debuted at Marvel, Uncanny's average print run was around 600k (more than twice the number it had at that start of the decade). And according to the June '89 sales chart from Capital City Distribution, 8 of the top-10 books were X-titles. Maybe New Mutants was showing signs of decline, but the rest of the X-books were still dominating sales.
Just a bit of a head-scratching statement in an otherwise fascinating video.
This is what I jumped on to say. “The X-Titles” dying a slow death is an insane statement
I thought that was a bizarre statement too. Maybe some of the X- titles didn't do so well, but many X-Men were aligned with other teams and overall were very popular. I wasn't a regular collector, but I got into X-Men and comics in general around 1989 and they were regularly available at my drug store news rack.
That was taken from a statement by Chris Claremont, Anne Nocenti and I believe Louise SImonson from a recent documentary. They used it in a sense that I thought was more aligning with low sales - obviously not the case - as well as attracting new readers. Looking at these numbers and listening to the comment again it is likely that Simonson and Claremont were referring to getting younger or new readers in? Then again, perhaps they just lumped Liefeld in with a few other things that preceded him by a few years. With it coming from Claremont's lips I had taken it as gospel surrounded by Simonson and Nocenti - oops. New Mutants was certainly dying a not so slow death but that was a direct market only book at the specifically used the term X-titles... weird. Sorry about that folks! I know little things like that can be annoying but hopefully it didn't detract too much from the video and at least now you know where I got the harebrained idea ; )
@@JerkComic Okay, I think I know what source you're talking about. Thanks for taking the time to clarify and make corrections, not many content creators would do that. You earned yourself a new subscriber.
redvitaminblue Much appreciated thanks for the sub! And no problems - interacting and learning are the reasons I started this channel. While i would never provide knowingly false information I’m far from infallible and always open to correction and an open dialogue. I appreciate that you were so respectful and brought something to my attention I obviously got wrong without being rude or even smug about it. You gave serious statistics you obviously took the time to research! That level of engagement and interest leaving a comment is the precise thing that drove me to start the channel so I really really appreciate constructive criticism and correcting where due and needed!
Great Job! I knew some of this but not the level of detail you put into it. Thanks!
Thank you so much for the kind words, I truly try and go a little above and beyond with the details as I'm always curious about the little things you don't traditionally hear about. So glad there are other people who seem to enjoy this stuff as much as I do! Really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment as well helps out the channel immensely
Rob Liefeld, McFarlane, and Jim Lee were GODZ amongst my circle of friends growing up.
I know! Everyone I knew. even kids that didn't read comics were into their stuff. Funnily enough, Sam Kieth was the only other guy I would add to this list. Everyone I knew who saw his stuff got obsessed with it, and them bam - he's got Maxx out at Image. I mean, they got basically everyone who was anyone for that company when they started!
@@JerkComic ...and Dale Keown's Pitt?
@@smithereens1693 I love Keown, I hate Pitt. Even when we were kids my friends and I all thought that The Pitt was the best looking crap comic of all time. Then it just kinda, disappeared and then showed back up with Full Bleed and still made no sense. Years later when I found out Keown wanted to be a rock star not a comic artist it all made a lot more sense. The Pitt reads like something out of Heavy Metal and I think it would have been a lot better suited to something small and serialized like that. Don't get me wrong, it looked amazing, but that was just a plain painful read imo.
@@JerkComic You caught me. My friends that I mentioned were the passionate comic book readers. All I cared about was the art. Yes they were rockstar's to me...and when I found out that Mcfarlane was Canadian I was immediately hooked. A Calgarian kid living in Florida.
Forgive me lol
@@smithereens1693 never ever apologize for liking what you like. Ever. Liking comics for the art is absolutely fine, there's plenty of stuff I own because I love the art alone. Like maybe half my Sam Kieth collection haha! Keown is one of the best Hulk artists of all time, so there's definitely worse stuff to be into IMHO. Pitt looked awesome, no doubt. I still remember him getting hit in the face and getting shot in the gut in that first issue vividly years and years later. Amazing work on that series. When he managed to get it out that is.
Hey duder, its ur bud StrangeComics. This video is great! Keep killing the game brotha.
Much appreciated brother! Thanks so much for the kind words, and you keep watching 'em and I'll keep making 'em, haha!
I just found your channel today and I've loved every video so far because they're honestly so refreshing. You give a well researched, entertaining, and unbiased report of events. The world of sensationalist media needs to take a page from your book. Keep up the great work.
Wow, you are too kind. I attempt to be unbiased, but I think it seeps in their subconsciously sometimes - though I trip to nip it in the bud when it does. I am so happy to hear that my OCD level of attention to sources and stuff actually interests other people. I would always see great videos and then be like, but where did they learn all that from? Who said that... This channel kinda grew and evolved from that notion. Thanks again for letting me know it's coming across, means a lot as I really do try and go that extra mile, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and it's amazing to read such kind stuff.
@John Doe Thanks so much!
I thought you gonna talk about the " banned comics"
But you're just giving us Image History
It's the banned comic, singular, not plural and I actually do talk about it. It's the book Marvel threatened to sue Rob over that made him start Image.
Image continues to inspire my own journey as a comic writer. Thanks for the video.
Thank you for checking it out and taking time to leave a comment! It means a lot that and helps out the channel more than you know. I remember when Image started and thinking how this could be the big one, the game changer we had been waiting for. Was hard to believe when they didn't just disappear over the first few years and then Maxx and Pitt happened and all that new blood started tricking in and it was a reality and an institution before long. I lived through it all, but I still have a hard time remembering the comic landscape pre-Image. And that says a lot imo.
Holy crap! I read X-men from 248 on and all other X-books, Spider Man and Guardians of the Galaxy (vol.1) when Image launched. Needless to say, I busted my hump to afford every Image book and go to the conventions. At the time, I knew it was to do with artists not owning the rights to their works, but I hadn't considered that they also didn't get a cut of the merch.
So, Image itself was the ultimate team book! Valentino was the crusty veteran, and while everyone thinks Liefeld was the upstart, McFarlane was actually the upstart and Liefeld was the Golden Boy. Legendary story, man. I'm subbing for more.
Thanks so much! It really is a crazy story. I know people see the huge checks these guys were getting from Marvel and don't really get what they were playing at with the merch. If those checks are for the comics alone, I shudder to think what Marvel was making merch wise.
@@JerkComic Merhc is goign to be different though, or would have been. Those cool maxi-print tees and Classic X-Men cover tees, posters, blisterpack backs, etc. weren't ubiquitous, they were side items -- granted there were lots, but I'd wager there weren't even 100,000,000 side items even made that were associated with the 8.2 million printed and sold copies X-Men #1 (BTW, want some copies? lol). Marvel had print distribution locked-down as well as deals on paper, ink, etc. They didn't have distribution and printing of posters and tshirts for as much margin -- comic books are not expensive to have made, even on good paper, as compared to durable items like cardboard and plastic, cotton, etc. The titrating factor would be space in shipping. Comics kick volume to dollar ass compared to tshirts... still, who wouldn't want another 25% or even just 10% of that stack? They deserved it because Marvel broke its contract with them by not being upfront about the usage of their art during negotiations. And not giving them copies of the merch? Even DC still sends Ethan van Sciver boxes of merch when they reprint his work (he opens the boxes and shows it off!). Marvel has always been and might always be run by greedy liars.
One should always get itemized invoices for you work and bitch about contract violations, no matter your industry -- I even get that as a private tutor and martial arts teacher.
Anyway, love it, great vids!
@@themaverickblackbelt8054 Totally right about the cost, that's why official Marvel merch that they offered showed the mark ups to assure the margin they were used to haha. They obviously didn't sell 8 million copies of a Jim Lee shirt, but you have to imagine that just say McFarlane, Spider-Man averaged I think half a billion dollars in merchandise sales during the early to mid 90s. If say, 25% of that featured McFarlane images, that's some serious change. I think that McFarlane was being straight up though, if they'd just given them copies of that stuff there wouldn't have been this feeling of complete indignation on a lot of the Image guy's should leering at them like a monkey. I KNOW one of the big things that set them all off was the car sets too. Lee was NOT pleased when they did the Jim Lee X-Men series 1 and 2, and then took his name off of but still had him illustrate all the cards for set 3. They were making some decent coin on that, there were a couple of insanely good deals with Impel and Fleer specifically where Marvel made out like bandits and Impel and Fleer essentially did it to try and buy their way into a new burgeoning market of collectible cards. Sam Kieth even got real cheesed off, he brought up the cards in I think 4 interviews I read with him, and that's not like him at all. He had seen the numbers and they were good, but he was super steamed about them taking the "credit" away from him on the second Wolverine series he did and Lee for those X-Men cards that I remember off the top of my head. And I think that leads me to the last point. The respect, the name, the recognition. Kieth said that even if he wasn't making a penny off of the last Wolverine set he did, his name was getting out there all over the place in new places. It was on the box, and the cards, and the packs - and then BAM, Marvel starts getting scared that artists have too much power and they took it away. You loose a lot of potential name recognition, and that just doesn't work when you still have to do the cards anyways for the same thing you were getting before, but less the name recognition and in a sense, free publicity. The Image founding father's were well aware of the power of exposure and I think that might have been one of the major things about the merchandising that set them off apart from the profits.
@@JerkComic
Wow!
Ron White on Joe Rogan regarding John Paul Dejora's recent selling of Patrón for $5.1B said, "That sounds like a lot of money, but it sounds like a lot more money when you realiz the 'point one' is a hundred-million dollars."
Yeah, any points you'd make on $½B in 1991 would be phenominal... at a .2% royalty, you'd get $1M. I didnt rrwalize it would be so much!
Holy crap, the cards! I'd forgotten.Marvel always did wrong. I wonder about why. That wasn't helping their company at all.
@@themaverickblackbelt8054 They farmed the talent and then other companies traditionally worked them after they tired of the treatment and or wised up to what was happening. I know the numbers are literally insane. It's so easy to write these guys off as whining, until you start poking around a little... it adds up. Quick. This is why I find it rather despicable that several of the Image founders, namely McFarlane, would go on to treat people under their employ just as poorly after they founded Image. Truly seems they didn't want to STOP that type of abuse, they just wanted to be the slave masters in that scenario. Kinda disgusting if you ask me...
How did I get here? How did I watch the whole thing? And how did I find this so interesting? Great job from someone that came here accidentally!
Haha, well thanks for stopping in! Glad you enjoyed and maybe there's some other stuff you might dig if you look around a little. Either way, thanks for taking the time to check this out and I really appreciate you leaving a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
Dude, I'm so glad to see your content start to gain more traction. You post the most unique stuff.
I really do try. It feels like I'm repeating people sometimes, but I always hope I can put my own unique spin on things and go the extra mile with research and annotation. Can't thank you enough for the kind words, it's amazing to see the viewcount finally starting to rise after the Maxx video, hopefully I'll keep bringing people in and get some real traction soon as I'd love to invest a little more time, effort and money into the channel to take it to the next level if there's enough interest.
Thanks again for the kind words, and especially for taking the time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it!
Great video man. Keep them coming.
If you keep watching 'em, I'll keep shooting 'em! Thanks so much for checking out the video, so happy you enjoyed it - and I really appreciate you leaving a comment helps out the channel immensely!
I love Rob. 90% of his haters aren't even old enough to have been alive than.
I am for sure and man does it get old. Like, I get it if he stiffed you on a Kickstarter - that's legit beef. He can't draw feet? Get dafugouttahere. How many illustrators hide or can't draw feet? Lots more than I would care to admit. Thanks for checking this out btw - hope you enjoyed
Being a comic-obsessed kid in the early 90s, I thought I knew a lot about Image comics, as I'd lived through that period, had a subscription to Wizard, etc. But I did not know about this unpublished Liefeld comic and the Sothebys Auction. WOW. Very cool info here, thank you.
That was a brilliant synopsis of Image. I’ve actually held every printed editorial piece that was shown on your video. Wow I’m getting old.lol
I know right? These videos becoming historical looks back in time still amaze me. I remember when Image started, seeing that first issue of Spawn in the racks at the LCS... he’ll even X-Force and Spider-Man 1 seem like yesterday. Funny how time flies, huh?
The one thing I can't stand about these origins on Image, is Todd's galactic ego. Great research as always. 👍
He, um, rubs me the wrong way in most cases as well... let me be polite there. I appreciate how talented he is and all that he's done, but I think his biggest selling point is himself. Not big on people like that. I prefer when artists speak quietly and carry a big stick as opposed to screaming all the time, but hey - we wouldn't have gotten Image with out him soooo, there's that at least, haha
Thanks so much for the kind words and for checking otu the video - so happy you enjoyed and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
@@JerkComic Todd's "ego" helped Image survive many times over the years! When the distributors threatened to punish IMAGE for late books, Todd responded by saying he'd get his own FN trucks and ask anybody he could find to join him who were also sick of the distributors throwing their weight around! They lightened up after thatI Meanwhile, it wasn't too long later when Liefeld and Lee were doing work for Marvel! My opinion of any "celebrity" is not to sweat over their antics! They can't hurt me the way decisions made by politicians can!
@@pulsarstargrave256 wouldn't argue that he helped image survive but I just dont enjoy listening to him speak because I find his ego off putting, he's always had the numbers to back up his words. And that's totally true about distro, was aeous that time Image sey up their own in-house fines for soliciting work that shipped late as part of the corporate restructuring following the break from Malibu. They really were trying to get their stuff together, just wasn't easy for them haha
Some people you dont like you deal with because of what they bring to the table.
steve owensby Totally! He was instrumental in Image... just don’t like watching him in docs and stuff as much as Larsen or Valentino etc.
Fantastic video. Somehow I had never come across your channel or any vids before...remedied that with a sub and notification click! Off to look for the Hawk and Dove vid...
Thanks so much! UA-cam just started actually letting me into the algorithm not long ago, glad you stopped through and hope you found some other stuff you enjoyed as well!
I know Liefeld is controversial, (had my own run in with him myself in his private forum)
And To be fair I do wonder if he is behaving a bit like a wounded animal and lashing out at any and everyone who doesn't just agree with him.
But I think he is probably the best Salesman/Pitchman for a concept ever.
I was totally sold on his Youngblood concept and how he pitched it to readers, I thought it was going to be well rounded and show the fame aspect and all, like in the pitch.
Now the actual execution, not so much , But the idea was great. I didn't realize he had done it way, way, way, earlier than I had originally thought till your video though.
If Image had happened in today's world, Marvel would have had a thousand trained chimps on reddit and twitter calling everything they put out "problematic" in order to salt the Earth.
Marvel and DC tried this tactic with printed media back in the day. No one cared. They still sold a freakin butt load of copies - check out the peter David Todd McFarlane debate if you want to see how bad stuff got hahahaha
You should do a video on Top Cow and Chaos Comics, and their bankruptcy.
Also, is that a Powermaster Optimus Prime figure on the shelf?
Original G1 Optimus Prime - no idea if there were sublines or what, but I know if was the first released version I could get my grubby mitts on as a kid, haha! That thing has been with me through getting kicked out of my house, 2 home invasions and getting robbed at gun point and having a bunch of my collection stolen (yeah, I grew up in a reaaaally nasty town haha)
re Top Cow/Chaos - I could DEFINITELY work something out about Chaos. Pulido is super interesting and I remember when they were pushing that as the next Valiant? Man, Evil Ernie and Lady Death were everywhere... until they weren't. I know I have some good Pulido interviews around here, and I need to really do a piece on all the Image studios and there off shoots eventually. Marc Silvestri is all but forgotten today, but he was the most accomplished artist in the founding father's eyes, and then you had Michael Turner and a few other people that blossomed into a whole other thing. It's really too bad that Chaos nevre worked out, and I swear - outside of Captain Marvel/Shazam, or Miracleman, I don't know of any other rights bouncing aruond like that. It was nuts! I mean, what like 6 or 7 companies ended up with those rights between like 2002 and 2006/2007 except for Lady Death, Pulido always has been a clever dude!
@@JerkComic Chaos, Image, and Milestone is what got me into comics. It's sad to see all of those characters pretty much gone now but DC lame characters get rebooted every couple of years.
Wow I never knew how much marvel used their artists as tools treated them as such "a tool". Its disgusting to learn how an auction piece would see no dime to it's original creators, its horrible and corrupt. Glad I never got into comics.
Loved the video. First time watcher, now subbed. Looking forward to new content. And you actually posted this on my birthday, so thank you very much.
Thanks so much for taking the time to check it out - really appreciate you leaving such kind words as well, really means a lot! Hope you've been digging the channel and thanks again for stopping through and btw, happy belated birthday man!
Did Marvel actually changed their behaviour with their future artists and writers? I see they sell a lot of TPB or HC and Omnibusses focussed on the writer and artists nowadays. And i wonder if they settled things with some of the image guys too, because a lot of them did return for a short time (including Leifeld return to X-force and Deadpool projects). Leifeld also claims he's receiving paychecks for his rights to Deadpool too.
Liefeld gets royalty checks for Deadpool and his appearances in stuff that he worked on I believe, not sure but I know he doesn't "own" Deadpool. Marvel wouldn't let that happen, but around this time they were expanding the royalty system and allowing artists to reap more, if still inadequate, resources from their creations. I also know he makes a metric f-ton of money from covers he does (he commissions his own private covers through Marvel as well as his regular cover work for several companies), appearances having to do with Deadpool, interviews, signings... after the movie, you name it! I also know that Marvel entertainment has been called out by name by Jim Starlin who refuses to ever work with Marvel Comics again, as having treated him with infinitely more respect and financial much better as well - I would assume this likely extends to Rob Liefeld as well, though that is simply supposition on my part. Marvel continues to attempt to downplay the importance of their artists still today, though in a bizarre way. They hire them young, hype the crap out of them, and then when they get "to big for their britches" they send them packing to DC where they're usually relegated to DC Comics B Cover variants and comic crawling back to Marvel under their own volition. Editorial has relaxed somewhat at Marvel, it's still a nightmare but not like it was in the 90s. The other thing Marvel does to try and mitigate any real control an artists name has, is associating them with a particular famous, or new hot character. They attach someone to a character, like say McFarlane to Venom, and then if that artist ever leaves - well who cares? You love Venom, right!?! Well he's what mattered, we're not even going to mention such and such artist throwing a tizzy because we would pay them a working wage and they left for DC.... I believe Tom DeFalco sums up how Marvel spins things quite well in one his quotes here. He talks about the public perception being McFarlane was given the adjectiveless Spider-Man book because he was "hot" or he wasn't getting along with David Michelinie, etc, etc. Nope. Marvel thought there was money to be made and McFarlane was available for the project. He says as an editor most decisions are monetary - and cold and calculated. Anyone can be replaced and that is Marvel's position. He uses Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko as examples, as shocking as that may be - but it is and always has been the way Marvel sees things.
So long answer to short question, yes and no - but not really. Thanks so much for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed. Thanks so much for taking the time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel!
great work on piecing this together. I'm sure there are some things unspoken but for anyone who lived through the comic wars this was great to listen to.
There were a few little things here and there, but really - this hits almost all the main narrative points. If you ever are curious and want to learn more check out the SyFy doc Series "Serious Damage" about the founding of Image as well as the documentary, Image Revolution where you get to hear the story from the founding father's mouths - both very worth checking out if you want more small details and happenings from this whole situation.
So happy you enjoyed - really appreciate you taking the time to check out the video and I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment - really helps out the channel!
When I look back on my comic days, The Maxx was the only good Image comic that I still like.
Same here. I liked the way a few of their other books looked, but even then I don't think I really "liked" them. The Maxx is amazing though, if that's the best they ever do - it's good enough for me!
Thanks so much for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed - if you haven't check out The Maxx episode I did if you enjoyed this and like The Maxx, might dig it. Thanks either way again for watching and can't thank you enough for taking time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
Definitely! The Maxx was my favorite. I even sent away for the Maxx 1/2 issue. Alas... all my comics are gone. Btw... new subscriber here. All it took was seeing all your Maxx stuff on the shelf. 😏
Firerocker wait til I figure out how to display the figure and my slab collection. I’ve got a decent amount of stuff back at this point. Lost my entire Maxx collection when I was robbed and have spent the last few years getting as much of it as I can back. Managed most of it but with the increase in the Ashcan values I’ll probably never be able to replace the Maxx 1, 2, and 3 blue and yellow ashcan editions... oh well I guess. What happened to all your issues? If you’re interested the trades and hardcovers are really cheap right now for maxximized so you could at least get the story back for a good price. Sorry all your old books are gone but I looked on the bright side, at least I have an excuse to collect it all over again, haha. Thanks so much for subbing and I really can thank you enough for taking the time to leave a comment helps out the channel immensely.
When you said his first self-penned issue was number 98 of new mutants I was like he had done his own inks before that, lol.
It's been a few years since I did this one but I think that was supposedly his first entire NM issue he inked on his own. Admittedly, could be TOTALLY wrong here, but for some reason I seem to remember something like that. Either way, hope you enjoyed the rest of this one, appreciate you checking it out
Great video! I never really heard the fully story behind the departure of all those artists. Sounded like there was so much dysfunction behind the scenes and by all accounts it still exists today. Seemed like there was some effort to mend bridges when Marvel asked some of those artists to come back and reboot some of their more popular titles like Liefeld`s Captain America and Lee`s Fantastic Four. Thanks for posting. Liked and subscribed!
They weren't mending fences so much as they were desperate. Marvel sales were declining and Image artists were the only thing people were talking about. in a mad dash to try and reclaim the throne Marvel just shoveled money at the only Image founders willing to come back in and cash in their beef sheet for a fat stack of money. Instead of saving anything it cost them more than they had and the sales figures were not only disappointing but required a continuity wide reboot to fix all the junk that had been devastated by Heroes Reborn. Man that was a dark time for the industry for sure...
Your knowledge and research on comics really stands out in these videos! Great job dude. I grew up reading comics during this era so I love hearing stories from the 90's! I'm so glad I found your channel!
Thanks, I really try and go above and beyond. I totally love the medium, always have and this is such a cool way to give back to the community! Never had stuff like this growing up, so happy to hear you enjoy it and glad you found the channel as well.
I grew up in the late 80s and early 90s as well - love talking about this era of books, and there's so many interesting stories. Can't wait to get the Hawk and Dove Rob Liefeld Incident video edited and posted... that's one is plum loco. Thanks again for checking out the video, so happy you enjoyed and can't thank you enough for leaving a comment - really helps out the channel immensely!
@@JerkComic Can't wait for the Hawk and Dove video! Keep up the great work!
@@caseyv5233 I'll do my best - you keep watching and I'll keep recording baha
Enjoyed your vid on The Maxx and I'm back for more
Thank you! So happy you enjoyed the Maxx video and it inspired you to stick with the channel - really appreciate you taking the time to leave comments as well, really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it. Definitely will get a cool Savage Dragon Larsen piece put together when I find the proper info and some time to breath. In the meantime, hope you enjoy what I've got planned and part of The Maxx should be out in a few weeks, finally got the last of the interviews I was waiting on after blowing my entire paycheck on source material - AGAIN, haha. Thanks again for tuning in and hope you enjoyed this episode half as much as The Maxx one!
Ya know I had an uncle nicknamed "Uncle Jerks" I never really knew why people always called him that, but I do know he was banned from going to Disneyland.
I'm not allowed at the public pool anymore... I think that has more to do with kids running and crying when they see my face than anything else though. At least I hope. Does feel kinda drafty down there sometimes...
I remember my brother coming home with the new x-force #1 with the cable card in the plastic, I grabbed some money, jumped on my bike and immediately headed to the store for a copy, lol
And this was the business model that made Image a force to be reckoned with haha! Glad you enjoyed and thanks for sharing the story
I'll always count Aug 1986 as when I started comics, with Uncanny X-Men #208... And sitting here, now... Thinking back as I watch your video... I watched everything you're talking about in motion... And, yes... You nailed so much dead on! And it's wild to me seeing those "old covers - new again!" Lol, but wow, it was great to see them again!
So glad you enjoyed - really appreciate you taking the time to check it out and especially leaving a comment, helps out the channel a ton and means a lot! I worked at a shop during this whole time so I saw several angles as a collector, reader and someone selling the books and really tried to tie it all together - glad it seems to have worked, haha!
I never liked Rob's art style. However, Travis Charest became one of the most amazing sequential artists of all time. Too bad his skillz didn't include speediness, which cost him future books.
If he could have just gotten ONE series, or a few issues out on time - he would have been set. It's sad that they didn't start booking him a year, or months and months out like they did with Kieth and Adams knowing how long it took them to work. Charest doesn't seem like he was super great at sticking up for himself either, and that ain't never a good thing when you're surrounded by sharks in the form of tons of other self assured cocky artists
he was seriously amazing when he got stuff out...
Just found your channel and loved what I saw! Immediately liked and subscribed and look forward to digging into your back catalog and for videos yet to come. This video is a story I am familiar with but there were a few details I had never heard before. One of the things I really like that separates you from other comic YT channels is the laundry list of sources being cited and the list of further reading for those who maybe don't know and would like to learn. So thanks for doing a great job and am looking forward to what's next!
I really try and go that extra mile with quotes, annotations and citing my sources. I just don't like when people on UA-cam do these enormous videos and talk about all this history and who said what, etc, etc. And then they don't even bother to mention where it's from. I know people are prone to exaggeration, it makes for a better story - it's hard to not take that road. But when you have to show the quotes and sources, well that gets a lot harder - and dryer. I'm so happy my slightly more collegiate approach to these types of videos seems like people enjoy. I always worry it's super dry and overly analytical, that's why I try and remain so energetic and keep the video moving at a steady clip... Thanks again for the kind words, really glad you enjoy the sources especially as the take a while and I'm always behind posting stuff and half tempted to leave it out as you're one of the first people to ever actually mention them.
Great job with this video man! Always great to listen to someone who knows what they are talking about. Listening to this just makes me feel sad about the state of comics today. If you had told me 20 years ago that I would stop buying comics I would have called you crazy. But the industry is as good as dead, Marvel hasn't produced anything of worth since Disney took over so I don't even call it Marvel any more. You could probably find an indie comic worth your time but I've just given up after being disappointed for so long. I do actually buy comics, but nothing new, just old stuff I haven't read yet.
May I suggest you make a video about two of Image's other super talents that I didn't know anything about until later, Campbell and Finch. Those two were an unexpected and welcome surprise. What's your thoughts on the industry today?
First, thanks so much for the kind words! Really appreciate you taking the time to check out the video, and so happy you enjoyed.
re J Scott Campbell and David Finch - I could probably come up with some cool stuff for them. I talked about a few other Campbell's covers in the past but I don't know an inordinate amount about him as I was never super impressed with his work once he "made it". I liked Danger Girl and stuff, but it seemed like his art got really repetitive after he became a cover artist for Marvel. David Finch seems like one of the most laid back and interesting guys to have come out of that whole movement. I unfortunately just don't have a lot of information on him. When he was breaking into the biz and at the top of his game there just weren't a lot of publications doing interviews and the internet was still trying to catch up with interviewing and covering information. I do love his stuff though, so it would be interesting to start poking around... will see what I can come up with as I assume there had to have been at least some decent coverage when he was doing that monster run on Moon Knight and a few other things.
re The Comic Industry Today - I don't like most of what's on the racks... but I never have. I didn't like these original Image titles, never really have. I wasn't all that into any of the new stories from the big two even duriing the 90s. The art was great in a lot of cases, but the writing was just awful Always exceptions though. I like some stuff, the Cates Venom run has been fun - if it's getting a little out of hand at this point... in fact, I like a good deal of what Cates does. I read a lot of Boom, Scout, RedLine, Vault, etc stuff. It is just more fun and interesting to me. I've recently stopped picking up most new stuff but that's because I am out of room. Like nothing left - I'm walking through a tower of boxes to get to where I shoot these videos, haha. There's plenty of crap out there, but that's always been the case. There's a lot of new "hot" characters getting pushed at the expense of better storytelling and originality, again - this was the case with comics when I was reading them in the 90s. We're seeing the last gasps of what we traditionally see as the comic industry, something's about to change - we'll just have to sit back and see what it is. But I'll definitely always be open to new books that sound really original and interesting - Atomahawk was radically weird and different than anything I had ever read and that was incredibly refreshing. There's always going to be books like that which keep me at least partially invested in the week to week happening at my LCS... well, until they find me crushed under a box of comics in my back room, haha - good way to go out though!
What this story leaves out is that Marvel has a deal with these artist that they made a percentage of the sales of every comic they sold, so these guys with record breaking sales were also becoming very wealthy. So while Jim Lee may not have gotten a watch, he got a lot of cash from Marvel before he left.
McFarlane talks about that a lot. He will use that as a prime example of how Image WASN'T about the money... I don't buy this argument, but the fact that he took a pay cut when he started Spawn is true. He was making bank on Spider-Man. He just wasn't happy and making money, and he found a way to do both. Image claimed they wanted to help creator's, but really it was just about getting on the other side of the glass and helping out themselves with their own characters in most cases. Which is how you end up with stuff like the Gaiman debacle... This is why I pointed out McFarlane was already going to leave and have always wondered about Jim Lee who seems like a business man above ALL else.
Your podcasts are great: have you thought of writing for a comics magazine? I for one would like to publish them!
I used to write for a music magazine, but when Wizard went tits up I wasn't sure I'd ever see another real comic magazine that I could write for. Never had a run at TwoMorrows publishing as they put out a lot of stuff - and never heard of your magazine before today. Looks super interesting! I'd love to learn more and either contribute or at least talk about it on the channel if it's as good as it looks. Drop me a line at so.ill.artsATgmailDOTcom - would love to chat with you more for sure...
Thank you either way for checking out the video, so happy you enjoyed - super appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
Very nice video! Major credit for what seems to be a ton of research that went into this video!
There's been so much said about this, I knew that if I just looked deep enough there'd still be plenty of interesting and unknown facts that I thought I could make this work. Really appreciate the feedback, and especially you checking out the video in the first place! Stoked you enjoyed it, and I can no thank you enough for leaving a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
Would love to see a vid on The Savage Dragon and Erik Larsen
Have no fear - this will happen. I don't know if I want to trace his creation through Larsen's work out at Megaton or if I'll just end up doing a career retrospective based around The Savage Dragon for Erik Larsen, leaning in that direction. I have loved Larsen for a long time but I think he's the most underrated of all the original Image Founding Fathers apart from Jim Valentino, and I would love to talk about him and learn some more stuff about his career.... keep an eye out for sure.
@@JerkComic Erik was the only one who continued to draw/write a continuous book throughout Images history. And for him to fulfill his childhood dream of doing the Dragon for a career is an awesome story. And Jim's contribution is mostly unknown and underappreciated.
@@brianlarsen9952 Larsen is the one who impressed me, not McFarlane. McFarlane walked off Spawn basically right away to do other stuff, Larsen has turned SD into a world unto itself. I'll be so happy when he ACTUALLY breaks Sim's 300 record!
As for Valentino, I still don't know why he gets so little love. Everyone's heard of and talks about everyone else from Image, but NOT Valentino... Such a nice guy too!
@@JerkComic Eriks run on Amazing Spider Man is..well, Amazing. His run on Savage Dragon is legendary
I used to love him, and he seems like a smart, confident yet humble person.
Thanks for stirring up old memories. I was 11 yrs old when Image books started to come out. Man those are some of my happiest childhood memories. I miss the days when simple things made me happy.
Simple things are just about the only thing that still DO make me happy, but comics aren't simple to me anymore - they're super complicated in so many ways so I feel you haha. I was at a shop when Image started so I remember those early days and the excitement in kids eyes - didn't really kick off for me until The Maxx started but man looking back, it was a hell of a turning point that's for sure. Thanks for checking this out, for the kind words and leaving a comment in general, means a lot and helps out the channel a ton!
Bro you come up with the best content i swear
Thank you so much! I really appreciate it. I think there's been a million things said about Image Comics and the founding fathers, but I never saw either Executioners or what followed really broken down play by play. So happy it didn't come off as recycled or stuff that you already knew - took a gamble on this one when I was writing it honestly and really excited you enjoyed. Thank you so much for taking the time to leave a comment as well, really means a lot and helps out the channel immensely - make sure to let me know if there's ever anything you want to see an episode about int he future btw. Thanks again for checking out the channel and taking the time to leave a comment - hope you're having a killer day!
I love the prominence of The Maxx merch on those shelves.
Maxx is my life haha! This is basically the channel the Maxx built
@@JerkComic lol that's awesome. I've been trying to hunt down the comic in full ever since I watched the MTV series.
I need that Hawk & Dove story.
Well you might be in luck then... had to wait on a few pieces for the next episodes to show up in the mail and decided since I already had the sources ready I would just drop that sucker. Filming some pick ups tonight and should have it out next week fingers crossed!
Thanks so much for checking out the video and taking the time to leave a comment - really appreciate it and it helps out the channel immensely. Keep an eye peeled for the Hawk and Dove episode SOON...
@@JerkComic I have my notifications on so I'll be here for whatever you drop next.
Great video, but I did notice one innacuracy - you said the X-Men books had been dying a slow death before Liefeld came along. That isn't true - New Mutants readership had been dwindling and near cancellation before Rob came along and made it a hot seller, yes, but Uncanny X-Men was always a top seller throughout the 80s, it was a juggernaut that dominated the top of the charts consistently pretty much from 1980 on (before which it had been steadily climbing the sale charts pretty much from the first issue after Giant Size 1) and it was a rare enough occassion when another title would outsell it during that period, that places like Comics Journal would write news articles about it when it happened (a memorable example being when the first issue of the Nam came out; as I recall, the only Marvel titles that could really consistently compete with Uncanny's sales during the 80s were the licensed books like GI Joe and Star Wars). X-Factor as I recall was pretty much always a mid-tier seller throughout the 80s until X-Tinction Agenda/Portacio joined the book, where it also became a bit of hot title for a few years as part of the X-Boom when anything with Marvel mutants was pretty much guaranteed to crack Diamond's top 20.
You are totally correct - I took that information from an interview with Claremont, Louise Simonson and Anne Nocenti. I believe I heard it out of context, as in they were dying an intellectual death and Claremont was feeling stretched by that point, not sales wise. I usually try and vet my information through at least 2 sources, but dumb me, I heard Claremont say it with Simonson and Nocenti right there and kinda took it as law without thinking. I had a few people even post Comichron sales data, I was waaaay off on that one. While New Mutants certainly did better with Liefeld, none of these books were "dying". Sorry for the little bit of misinformation, was just a stupid trip up on my end, always gotta double check stuff like that!
Thanks for chiming in and hopefully that little bit of misinformation wasn't too annoying!
This was great. I thought I knew this story but I didn’t. I WANNA KNOW MORE ABOUT DC AND JIM LEE’s STORY!
You mean Jim Lee selling Wildstrom to DC? I am planning on doing a much more indepth look at it, but unfortunately Lee isn't very talkative when it comes to actual business dealings and it seems like there was a really humdrum reason; he was tired. He was tired of having to run a studio, looking after people, deadlines, imprints, infighting, and just the daily grind of trying to draw on top of that. He's been pushed into the same position now at DC and I think that's why he's stepping down. Jim Lee is a lot like Stan Lee at this point, I think he more wants to get paid for being Jim Lee than really DOING anything. And I don't mean that as an insult, I really don't. Dude hustled his butt off for decades and became perhaps the most successful comic artist of all time when things are all said and done. It's kind of a shame that he never did much to improve conditions or make a big difference, but I think he was just toasted after the Image years trying to keep stuff together and being a father to how many kids now? Man was a machine, and even machines break down I guess, haha
Hey Uncle Jerk! I was in Megaton Comics and printed Rob’s YOUNGBLOOD poster in the Megaton Christmas Special from Entity Comics!
Dude, you get AROUND! You were involved with like all the major players at one point or another - just got your message btw, I'm out of the hospital and now have a semi-working understanding of how a video interview works, haha! We will make this happen as I'm rearing to talk to you!
@@JerkComic Sounds good...feel better, man!
@@DonChin The more I get my head back in the game the better I will feel I think, thanks man!
I'm loving this channel, man! Can you delve into how DC bought Wildstorm?
I will try and do some digging. I know there's anecdotal evidence of what was going on from a lot of peripheral people involved but Jim Lee is notoriously tight lipped about any and all business stuff he's associated with. He doesn't even really talk about why he actually joined Image so fear of upsetting people at Marvel or DC, that's some craziness. I know the reason it happened, and how it happened, and it was a mess - but getting direction quotation from those involved has proven rather problematic as I've been looking into this since I posted an Alan Moore Wildstrom video almost a year ago at this point I'm sure. Keep an eye out as when I get the proper information and angle this is definitely something I'll be talking about!
Thanks so much for checking out the video, really hope you enjoyed - and thank you so much for taking the time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it.
@@JerkComic Jim already said why he joined Image in several interviews. Main reason he left Marvel was because he was told if he left they wouldn't fly his wife out to conventions, (despite him being the highest selling comic book artist) they kept on threatening to whittle away the perks he was getting, so he left with Todd that day. I think it was in this book
"Comic Wars: How Two Tycoons Battled Over the Marvel Comics Empire--And Both Lost"
@@rockon8174 He's sited a few different instances like that, but there was something larger at play with Lee imo. I don't know if he was trying to levy for better pay/negotiation, but he's also said in a ton of interviews, he was "bored" and that Image Comics, "just came along at the right time". Lee is a chess player and a supremely intelligent businessman. Nothing he does is impetuous. he just doesn't like to talk about the actual real big reasons behind why he does stuff. He's seen that blowback on McFarlane, Liefeld, Larsen, all of those guys - so seems like he steers clear and keeps people's eyes on the art and the work and the product. I respect the crap out of that, but it does make pinning down WHY he does what he does kind of difficult imo. Every once in a while he'll let something slip but he's a fairly guarded dude for as open and forthright as he comes off.
@@JerkComic owning your own stuff and controlling your own destiny and not being screwed like Jack Kirby is also a great motivator. 😐
@@rockon8174 yeah... I would think if that was a motivator you wouldn't do that to another creator though. Seems hypocritical and kind of jerkish
Was it that Marvel was scared of Liefeld’s creation or the fact that he basically ripped off the X-Men and tried to release it independently? I’m mean “The Exicutioners”? That was already the title of a HUGE X-Book crossover. Everything about that ad screamed copyright infringement.
Oh it was a blatant rip off - no argument. But was that why they came down so hard on him? No, I don't think so. There were other people doing essentially the same thing, problems were - they didn't work for Marvel and they weren't one of Marvel's highest selling artists. I'd like to imagine that Liefeld was never popular enough to elicit this type of response, but again and again the numbers and interviews and stuff all point to this fact. Strange but true - at least from my perception of the information provided.
Hey I want to know about the Hawk and Dove incident! Btw great video 🤙🏾
Well, you're in luck. While I was waiting on the other Maxx sources to show up in the mail I might have finished this script and just might be sitting down to shoot it here in about 15 minutes! Can't wait to share this one with you all, has some really interesting stuff in it and hopefully it will be half as much fun to watch as it was to work on.
Thanks so much for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed and I really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely and I super appreciate it. Thanks again, hope you're having a killer day, and keep your eyes peeled for the Hawk and Dove Incident video... it's gonna be a fun one!
Me too
I just finished the podcast of Rob Liefeld (Robservations) where he talks about his whole experience with the Hawk & Dove pages. I think it’s the episode titled “1988! Learning to Fly”
@@YanoEscueta I was so bummed out when I heard it because I had already released my video, and it legit came out while I was editing. Really worth checking out to fill in the gaps and I thought it was super cool Liefeld had nothing but nice stuff to say about Karl Kesel.
@@JerkComic I watched yours also for a more balanced take on the issue. Great content btw, thanks for making these videos! 👍
Im glad i found this channel,
Keep up the good work... 👍
You keep watching 'em and I'll keep making 'em! Thanks so much for taking the time to leave a comment as well, really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it!
Liefeld is one of my favorite artist, people seem to forget that they loved his New Mutants and X-Force books, now all they do is criticize his art, now he is doing a Snake-Eyes mini series, got the first issue and love it.
It is a cyclical thing with him. People love him, they hate him - they love to hate him! I get tired of listening to people bash on him for no reason... so much so, that's all the next episode going up is going to be about - Liefeld, and the Hawk and Dove incident... That Snake Eyes book was cool, felt very much like cracking open an old Marvel GI Joe book that just happened to have Liefeld on art.
And yeah, you would think especially with all the Deadpool freak out there that people would be a little more forgiving or at least remember why they liked his stuff to begin with. Seems like a lot o people just enjoy talking trash about something and LIefeld's an easy target since anyone will agree with you abut it so they don't look stupid since they like his work... ugh.
thanks so much for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed - can't thank you enough for taking the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel immensely!
JerkComic, thanks for the reply, I am very interested in the Hawk and Dove incident, I don’t know nothing about it.
He cannot draw properly period.
@@MrBrutal33 he's not alone but I agree. He does some cool covers but interiors almost always have several panels that just make me cringe. Systemic problem that occurred in the field when people started learning ti draw from other comic artists anf nky any formal training or figure work...
@@1971thedoctor btw, Hawk and Dove episode sooon!
I hope you do like a brief history/behind the scenes of the New Mutants or something like that. Rob’s run was ok, and I really like the redesign uniform he gave to the New Mutants.
If I talk about NM, it will probably be more of the Sienkiewicz stuff. I actually think that especially the McFarlane inked Liefeld stuff for NM was okay, but Bill Sienkiewicz has been an obsession since I was a little kid and if I get to talking about New Mutants that's where my brain is gonna go, haha! There's just no curbing that and somehow I haven't really gotten to do a good long Sienkiewicz episode... Need to fix that actually lmao
@@JerkComic Either way it sounds interesting, and I'd be looking forward to see you cover them someday, if you will.
I never liked Liefield's art style but he and his colleagues don't deserve the treatment that Marvel given to them at that time.
This is truth. I think a lot of people see the big paychecks and just assume these guys were throwing temper tantrums. That isn't the case. It's really a shame they turned around and did especially the same thing to their employees in a lot of cases as Marvel did to them though. I'll never get over the Gaiman McFarlane law suit... that just takes major balls to try and screw someone like that.
This video was awesome man !!! These guys changed the COMICS GAME FOREVER !!!
Thank you so much for the kind words, and there's no doubt Image changed the game forever. Really appreciate you checking out the channel, stoked you enjoyed the video, and I can't thank you enough for leaving a comment - really helps out the channel!
have you ever read Alan Moore's Supreme> ? Very underrated
Its a real shame we never got to see them as the Superman story they were written as but man is Moore's Supreme amazing
As someone who was a comic fan and horny teenager in the 90's, I can say I would have followed Jim Lee everywhere just because of his artwork, he drew the sexiest females at the time. He was the best imo, followed by Top Cow artists Marc Silvestri and Michael Turner. So if you wanted sexy comic characters in the 90's, Image Comics was the place to go.
This sums up a great deal of people who were reading and collecting at the time imho and I think was a big reason for the success of Image. It's really gone on to become something of its own and there are some great titles there now but it was all flash and art when it started for sure. When that second wave hit with The Maxx stuff started slowly but surely changing too though I think
Thanks for checking this out, means a lot to know people are actually watching and enjoying these videos and I can't thank you enough for taking time to leave a comment, helps out the channel a ton!
I would love for you to do one on Jim Lee and wildstorm and his move to sell his imprint to DC.
I'll definitely be doing this as it is one of the only things I know of that Lee openly talks about in interviews. He's been very clear he was tired of being a business man and wanted to "do comics again". The best answer to one of the most monumental setbacks to creator owned rights in a long time, haha. I mean, good for Lee, starting the company, getting paid - doing what he wants. But it really felt like DC striking a blow back at Image all these years later and I think a lot of people in the fan community especially took it really personally. Lee is such an enigma really, his career is so prolific and he does so many interviews, but he always manages to skirt around anything that might prove even iffy or questionable at any time in the future. A masterful business man, which again, was a real double edged sword for him. Thanks so much for checking out the video, I hope you enjoyed and I will definitely be covering this so keep an eye on the channel. Also, really appreciate you taking time to leave a comment - helps out the channel immensely!
Really enjoying your content. Came for your videos on The Maxx stayed for the rest. Liked and new subcriber
Thank you so much! This is what I like to read. Glad my other videos were interesting enough to get you to check out the rest of the channel. Can't tell you how much I appreciate you subscribing and taking the time to leave a comment as well - really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it!
Never heard the stories not giving McFarland most of the credit. Good job sor!
He was not the be all end all that people want you to remember he was. He didn't even get the Spider-Man series because he was hot like they want you to think all these years later. McFarlane and Liefeld are two of the most polarizing guys in the industry and it's funny how it has served McFarlane so well while undermined Liefeld who has done essentially the same stuff. Love Image, but always feel like propel are spinning the story and trying to give this guys most credit and that guy... Liefeld came up with the idea, McFarlane got people organized and recruited Jim Lee, Valentino got the business stuff together, etc etc - it was a team effort and that's why the company succeeded and is still around imho.
Thanks so much for checking out the video, so happy you enjoyed - can't thank you enough for taking time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and I appreciate it immensely!
@@JerkComic in my current era as a 45 year old, I think Valentino is the reason they lasted more than a year, people forget about the era when none of the books came out and the ones that did were all splash pages and no stories. But what do I know..
Storytime Noir well a lot if you ask me! I personally believe that Jim Valentino was the glue that held early Image together. He and Jim Lee were the only two with a real sense for business and only Valentino knew how it all fit together and how to actually MAKE a comic book. If you look back at the previous attempts at stuff like Image I think one of the major obstacles was that people were either amazing business people or amazing artists but Image had both and just came along at the perfect time with that initial bolstering of initial cash influx from the collectors boom that let them last out the horrible drought that has followed. Without Valentino there to hold the business side of things together I get the feeling the story of Image would have been radically different.
Every kid in my art class want to be Rob Liefeld!!! The GAP Made him a rockstar
Did he do a GAP commercial too!?! The Levi's 501 thing was a HUGE deal I remember that. I called my parents in to see that lunker haha. Look look comics on TV! Was unheard of to me since all the old toons got canned from the 80s
That what it was 501 button fly.
@@robertg.7052 You're probably thinking of Henry Rollins, ha ha.
Rob liefeld the artist who loves to draw pouches.
And can't understand the concept of
Human feet.
He seems to catch the brunt of "not drawing feet", but other big artists at the time and after, all hid feet. Mignola did it all the time, Lee constantly did it. The difference is, they were able to compose their work better and hiding feet didn't look unnatural like Liefeld's. Plus, I think it lumped in with people critiquing everything else about Liefeld that people decided to make fun of the feet as well, but I guarantee you, look at everything Lee was doing at the same time and there's tons of hidden feet, he just did it better.
re Lee and others feet - But see, Lee knew he didn't draw them well and hid them while working on them. Liefeld just constantly either didn't bother to draw them at all, drew them incorrectly with no regard, or forgot to add them as he was, and is, constantly avoiding them. There's a pretty famous Captain America panel where a woman is missing the entire bottom part of her leg - you can tell Liefeld was like, I'll just add it later... and later never came. Inker didn't even bother as, well - if you've seen Heroes Reborn you KNOW why, haha. I'm not a Liefeld hater or anything, but he just refuses to grow up as an artist. Lee spent years relentlessly pushing and honing his artistic talents while mired down in the corporate world of 2 different studios AND trying to keep Image afloat. That kinda irks me. Liefeld just sat back and collected fat stacks - but that's on people, they keep buying his books... it's like Michael Bay. Everyone likes to make fun of him, but how much are those films grossing? There's obviously a LOT of people that like them, and this is Liefeld in a nutshell. I hate that he has become the poster child for no feet - you name me more than 4 major artists from the 90s that did feet right and I'll send you a free Giant Size X-Men, lmao! Even people like Sam Kieth were doing these bizarre enormous detailed weird feet (which I love, but still - they ain't anatomical, hehe) and characters were always in smoke or behind rocks so you couldn't see feet. Liefeld is FAR from alone. It's just that most of those other guys either tossed in the towel and gave up, or they actually learned... or at least got better in some cases, not to bust chops, but still. It's so "cool" to hop on the Rob bashing bandwagon these days I tire of hearing it. There are guys out there making a living as cover artists DIGITALLY TRACING and patchwork assembling other people's work. IN THE OPEN. That is insanity! Madness! People get all worked up because Liefeld can't draw anatomy and seeing the Batawang, but plagiarized work? No problems! :sorry for the rant/info dump, I just completely agree about Liefeld being the face for this stuff not making sense vehemently:
He wasn't the onlyone who loved pouches. I mean Cable WAS a pouch - Liefeld just drew arms and legs on him... and sometiems hands and feet to hold his staple gu-er, I mean laser! But for the record Pouch was a gag character poking fun at himself and I actually appreciated him owning his lackluster design skills. Then he went and pulled that crap on Major X... I tell you, I wanna give the dude a break, I really do. I wanna stop talking about him and every time I think he's going to grow up, that he has learned or changed or anything - nope. He goes at calls another professional artist a clown for a HIDDEN CAMEO in the background of a panel. Ri-friggin-donkulus!
Thank you for the comic history, nice work
Thank you so much for not only taking the time to check it out but to leave a comment really helps out the channel
What happened with the hawk and dove incident?!?😲
I want to know, too.
My camera crapped out on me this week - but I'm filming this episode tonight, so have no fear you'll soon learn the shocking secrets behind the Hawk and Dove Incident... can't wait to finish this one up and post it!
Thanks so much for checking out the channel and taking the time to leave a comment - helps out the channel immensely and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. Keep an eye on the channel for the Rob Liefeld Hawk and Dove episode next week sometime!
@@funkyweapon1981 fear not, it's coming!
Was going to ask but see everyone else already has, we want to know. Just found your channel, today great work!
@@Loydicus it's coming soon!
The x-men related books were at the peak of their popularity when liefeld started working on new mutants, and Claremont wasn’t kicked off of x-men, he left because he didn’t like the editorial direction marvel was taking with the book.
Talked about this in a few other comments but in a nut shell: that comment about the x-titles was taken from Claremont himself as well as Louise Simonson and Anne Nocenti. I can only assume that I either COMPLETELY misheard what they said or the editing made his comment completely out of context. The x books were doing great at the time. New Mutants was also already doing quite well and Liefeld simply propelled it into a top 10, maybe top 5 sales book but didn't "rescue any dying titles". Someone even took the time to share the comichron sales data which 100% shows how inaccurate my statement was. I usually use at least 2 sources for my stuff but I thought hey its Claremont he's gotta know! Whoops on my part. Though they set a record with Lee at the helm so it would have been their peak exactly, but not far off from it.
And yeah my word choice regarding Claremont leaving the x-titles was not the best. I know he wasn't actually "kicked off". I get tunnel vision sometimes and forget to expound on some stuff. I meant that they basically indirectly kicked him off the book because artists were becoming the sales motive for many fans and Claremont had less and less say as editorial took Lee's side over his more and more. Sorry for the incorrect information as I said usually vet info through at least 2 sources where available but totally goofed taking Claremont's quote either out of context or misunderstanding it. Thanks for the heads up and appreciate the corrections - always looking to get better and better with each episode and can't do that without feedback and constructive criticism from people such as yourself. Hope that little bit of inaccuracy didn't sully the rest of the video to badly for you and thanks again for chiming in and taking the time to leave a comment!
JerkComic no, on the contrary, it was a great video. Keep up the good work 👍
@@iansmith8783 awesome so glad you enjoyed and thanks again for chiming in, can't know when I make a mistake without help from awesome folk such as yourself. Really appreciate you being so level headed about the correction as opposed to condescending or anything, rare thing to discover on the internet these days and always extremely welcome when I do!
JerkComic oh no worries. I just like talking comics with other true fans. Thanks for not being on “high alert” re: viewers sharing their thoughts, that is much appreciated. Again, keep up the great work and thanks for the video.
Ian Smith Same here. Never got why people seem to get so angry when they get behind the keys... I like learning myself and you only do that by making mistakes and learning from differing and opposing view points. Way easier when it’s a level headed discussion as opposed to psychotic ranting haha!
Ha Liefeld could never draw hands and feet. Hes always been over rated.
Just wait for the Hawk and Dove episode, the BEST Liefeld hands and feet story ever haha
@@JerkComic post it please! New subscriber here love your work a bunch keep doing what u do
@@broomhands8001 legit working on it NOW
Not remotely true. Rob was always perfectly capable of drawing hands and feet. Just Google "Liefeld Hawk and pencils" to see his try out pages from 1987 that prove it.
Check every panel in Xforce. He usually cuts them out. Hes no Jospeh Michael Linsner is all I'm sayin
This was a great video, I've always love comicbook history, and the Image story has always been particularly interesting. 😄
Wow. If the editors looked at kirby and ditko like that and why they left, i can understand why artists left.
For all the hate Jim Shooter gets heaped on him, Tom DeFalco is just as much of a d-bag when it comes to this kind of stuff. DeFalco is at least honest, but reading that - it was just like, "wow. That's why you guys think they left? They think they were more important? Not better pay, or royalties or anything? Ego? yeah that's sounds like Ditko for sure.. wtf." So sad to see such great talents marginalized so easily by the higher ups at places like this.
@@JerkComic yeah its amazing to me hearing what they said and did like the aucition part. And i thought "wow. And we wonder why the business gets a bad rap"
I would love to see Rob Liefeld's art after he went back to comic art school, and relearned his fundamentals.He could easily be a great comic artist, if he'd only work on the problems in his work.
But why? People keep buying it - he has no impetus for that kind of stuff. I mean, I get you, but like Skottie Young who I wish would stop with the Chibi crap. Especially at this point for Rob at his age, why try when you can make bank on what you're just meh-ing out haha
@@JerkComic I agree with your opinion on Young. I'm also tired of the Chibi crap.
@homeaccount5943 so. So tired. And don't get me wrong, I actually LOVE Young's work prior to all that baby Chibi stuff, too. Was a big fan and it's like his sketches are the best stuff he does anymore. Gah
Loving your video's, man. Crazy how Image came together in those early days. Seems like a 50/50 mix of being written in the stars and just dumb luck. I hate how much of Images early stuff seemed like cheap clones of what Marvel was putting out, especially the X-Men, bit the industry as a whole, as you ppinted out in this video, was kinda of in a creative slump. Pretty happy with where the industry is at now though, except how expensive comics are. Ouch! But hell, you get what you pay for, and the overall quality of the magazines are MUCH better than they were back in the $1 days.
There's so much to choose from too, I mean - small publishers, big ones, indie, whatever you want. There's even some absolutely amazing webcomics... I get kinda confused when people talk about how bad the industry is these days as I just remember a ton of books from the 90s that were just as bad, it's weird to see how things have changed and perceptions shift as there's more and more information available to consumers and fans as time passes. Image definitely just came along at the perfect time and managed to stick around because they had some really savvy and intelligent people able to keep afloat on what other people couldn't have lived off of as a company due to their structure and stuff. Thanks for checking out the video, so happy you enjoyed and I really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment!
Great video, I have watched and read a lot about Image history and still enjoyed this video. I recently found your channel and really have been liking your content.
Thanks so much! I know there's been a ton said about them over the years, and I'm really happy to hear you still enjoyed this as I really toyed with the fact this might just be too well known to make a good video... Really excited you're enjoying the channel, I hope you come across some other stuff that's floats your boat and please let me know if there's ever anything you want to see an episode about in the future. Thanks again for checking out the video, and especially for taking the time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and I super appreciate it!
Dude, I think you put WAY to much stock into Rob Liefeld's "art work". Even in the 90's I felt he was amateurish compared to people like McFarland and Lee and frankly, he was. He cut corners constantly and instead of developing any kind of unique look he just stuck pockets onto them. And lets not forget his aversion to feet.....
Or the fact he held a record for selling the most copies of a modern comic - he's still in the top 10. I mean, I am not what you would call a Liefeld fan, but just because I don't particularly care for his art style doesn't mean he wasn't instrumental to the foundation of Image. People like his stuff - it still sells how many controversies and times he's taken money and not put stuff out... people still love Liefeld. I'm not claiming to be one of them, or to understand it - but he has played an extremely important role in the evolution and history of comics in the past three decades.
ive heard this story so many times even from videos of the artists themselves but this was maybe the best, awesome job piecing all the bits together
I really did try and make it a comprehensive overview - took on a kind of life of it's own, like these videos often do. I'm really happy that it came together and you enjoyed it as someone who's heard these stories before. I thought that, especially for first timers, having a chronological timeline like this would be a great jumping off point to learn more about Image. Really glad you enjoyed and I super appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment as always!
What do you bet the 38 dislikes as of this message are Marvel editors from the early 90s (and as I read early Savage Dragon comics probably Peter David) lol
What do you want to bet they saw my face and ran screaming from the screen in terror with only time enough to smash that dislike button haha. No but my video quality and editing capacities aren’t up to par with a lot of people’s standards and I am honestly flabbergasted that people such as yourself are able to look past these shortfalls to the information and enjoy them. Thankful but flabbergasted haha.
@@JerkComic Don't sell yourself short dude, I don't know all the details of what happened back then, but unless you were pulling most of this stuff straight out of your tailpipe, its pretty good.
As for Artist
I remember it wasn't that long ago that the writers became the big selling point on books, and were advertised that way, and the artist were seen as interchangeable and a dime a dozen.
Wonder why that is?
Now I want a copy of Hawk and Dove #5 with the original sideways art. Marvel was't all wrong about the characters selling the comic. The story and character has always been the part that has sold me. If those are both great and the art is bad, then I'm likely to pass on buying. If the art is great and and the story is bad, then I'm likely to pass.
You can see a selection of them on Rob's site under the Robsplains podcast episode about this incident which came out totally by coincident while was editing this. Wish I'd known it was happening but hey can't win em all. And you can always pick up that sideways X-Force Spider-Man cross over if you need a sideways Liefeld fix lmao
When Rob Liefeld put out 'The Executioners' ad, I don't believe for one second it was management fearing him and what Image could do to Marvel. It was more anger at the absolute arrogance and total lack of respect for Marvel who he was still working for. Here they have a guy producing 'X-Force,' a debatably hot title, and now he's announcing to the world he's going to do a knock-off comic for a would-be competitor...? Yeah, I'd be upset too. So no, Liefeld and his devoutists can make that claim all they like, your facts in this video clearly dispute Liefeld's b.s. Marvel was never quaking in their boots over losing any of them. Marvel and DC are like a factory with an assembly line. Where there's one there's a million more just waiting to replace. And I know, that's a messed up mindset to have, especially in an artistically creative place like comics, but that's how top-tier publishers are and have always been since the dawn of literary publication.
And you're absolutely right, without Jim Valentino, Image would've quickly died because he was the only one who had any business sense. And to be honest, 'ShadowHawk' was the only comic I thoroughly enjoyed among the founders of Image. McFarlane's 'Spawn' was a cheap knockoff of 'Ghost Rider' and 'Deathlok,' so I stopped reading after the fifth issue. Lee never did anything for me, so I never bothered reading his book 'Wild C.A.T.S.'. Same with Liefeld. And while I liked Larson's 'Savage Dragon,' I wasn't overly enthused to buy his comic, so I've only read his book whenever I had nothing better to buy.
I'm not all that confident to say Image puts out better work than DC or Image in 2020. Some of the stuff is decent, but for me a lot of it is on par with being as crappy as what DC and Marvel put out today. Really overall, comics are not as good as they once were. Every once in a while I'll see something that's a fantastic read, but it's not like it used to be when I was growing up in the early 90's.
re Marvel Scared: I tried to illustrate I didn't believe this claim either with the quotes from DeFalco about McFarlane being given Spider-Man because of an economic decision and the quotes about Kirby and Ditko being replaceable. If that's how DeFalco and Marvel viewed Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, there would be no hope for some punk upstarts like the Image Founding Fathers, haha. And it was New Mutants, he only did I think one issue of X-Factor (40?) and then some covers - but New Mutants started picking up and the sales on that book were definitely on a heavy upward spike. This is the reason they let Liefeld take over writing duties, ugh... As for them being galled by his arrogance, yeah - that was definitely part of it. There's an undeniable element of control there as well. There were a ton, and always have been, a ton of crappy Marvel imitators but they usually didn't stoup low enough to given them the time of day unless they thought it was going to affect their bottom line. My guess is the knee-jerk reaction happened due to the fact Marvel had just gone public and they didn't want ANYONE rocking the boat. Regardless of the reasons, that's not what Liefeld took away from the encounter - and if that's what empowered him to start Image, who am I to argue with that? As Corey Feldman might say, that's his truth.
re Spawn: That book was just a rip off of everything. He moves and looks so much like Spider-Man in a BDSM outfit, and undeniably draws elements from a number of other sources - Dethlok having been one I had never actually considered until now, but makes absolutely perfect sense with the death and resurrection of a soldier angle. Interesting. I've got an amazing Jim Valentino story that happened to me I'm making a video about today that really expresses my feelings about the guy - just an incredibly intelligent, articulate, kind guy who newer seems to get the respect due to him for a myriad of reasons. Even from myself when I first met him, though this was completely unintentional and I was just too young to know what was really up... Savage Dragon is great if you like the book. It's not my cup of tea but Larsen has stuck with it, and I respect the hell out of that dude and his work ethic. No idea why everyone flipped about Spawn but Larsen is getting no love as he quickly closes in on Dave Sim's Cerebus record for REAL unlike McFarlane who simply half assed his way there replacing himself on Spawn after what, half a dozen issues? Such an over hyped and trite character...
re Image vs Marvel/DC: Yeah I guess I'll just have to respectfully disagree with you there. I don't necessarily like 99% of what's on the racks right now, but Image consistently gets me to pick up first issues of new series and keeps me intrigued as they're not tied to the capes and cowls like Marvel and DC. The simple fact that you can get Superhero stories, noirs, horror, anthology, all of that stuff - cyberpunk and sci-fi, fantasy and stuff, from one publisher and it's decent is really impressive to me. Gun to my head I'd much rather read an uninteresting first issue of an Image comic than issue 1,045,677 of Spider-Man (obviously relabeled #1 for sales reasons since there's a new writer on the series and continuing the numbering for the series that it is apparently doesn't make sense anymore). That's just me though. I like weird off the wall stuff, and thinks like Atomahawk really set Image apart from me, I don't know what other comic company would have published that when it was reelased and I LOVE that series. Comics are art and art is subjective, so that's just my 2 cents, not worth much in the grand scheme of things, haha
Thanks as always for checking out the video, hope you enjoyed! Really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment as well, love discussing difference of opinion with you and learning about new perspectives and observations I would never have come up with or made myself. Hope you're having a killer one!
@@JerkComic X-Factor? Oops! I meant X-Force. God, I see a lot of mistakes in my commentary. I'm going to have to rectify that, lol! I must've been distracted cause I typically proof-read before I post so I don't look like a dope. Anyway, I wasn't attacking your comments. You did make that abundantly clear. I was just expanding upon that notion, because I don't buy it for a second that Liefeld, McFarlane, or anyone else who went to form Image had Marvel quaking in their boots. And I would very much love a Jim Valentino retrospective too, so go for it. I've liked a few things Image has put out over the years, but I hate a lot of it because comes off as bland and contrived when I read it.
That Sotheby's thing was a pretty huge dick move by marvel. Inviting them fools to watch their artwork getting sold and not getting anything....crazy.
Yeah, kind of not hard to understand why this whole thing went down when you step back and look at the big picture. And Marvel was really excited about the sale. They had no clue it was gonna set off this chain reaction. All for the best I guess since we got Image out of the deal though, haha!
Thanks so much for checking this out btw. Hope you enjoyed and I really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment, not only does it help out the channel, but it means the world to know people are actually watching and enjoying these videos I make and upload!
What I want to know is , what is that small Maxx item on the shelf above your right shoulder?
That would be the ridiculously cool Maxximum Sound. It's an audio drama of the first part of The Maxx done by Kieth and a guy names Stephen Romano which is basically a radio drama of the first few issues. It was a major template for the sound design of the cartoon, super cool piece that you don't see pop up too often. Good eye!
It did take a pair of balls bigger and harder than anyone else in the industry to simply walk away with such indignation. McFarlane, after me.
A raging ego. I want to say a super sack, but I honest to God believe that Liefeld was like, nope. No one tells me what to do lmao. Not that I don't respect that for what it is haha. I mean that dude gets NO credit for Image really and he's the guy who came up with it. McFarlane might have made it happen with the other artists but Rob was the dude to light that fuse