Wait, what? Of course the effort put into a game is part of the cost. More design work, more play testing, more development cycles - that's all work hours. Hours for which employees get paid and even self-employed people want to see eventually some pay-off for. Saying that the price should only be driven by manufacturing costs is how we get to ramshackle designs that are thrown together and never properly tested and developed. All the costs are costs. Doesn't matter if it involves cardboard, wood, plastic or work hours. Otherwise good video, but this weird statement stood out.
super agree - as soon as I heard that statement, I came to the comments to see if anyone else had called it out. A lot of great comments, opinions and explanations in this video, but this was absolutely not one of them.
There's a book on accounting called The Accounting Game that I think is a must read for everyone. It'll show exactly what you are talking about here in regards to business practices and figuring out the bottom line. And does it in a very easy to follow, even kid/teen friendly, manner.
My only criticism is their bait and switch with acrylic tokens. Day one we had Core box and then an acrylic token add-on for $14, which was a good price. Later in the campaign they created a new acrylic token add-on just for the Stretch goals. Who in their sane mind would buy a partial acrylic add-on? They basically forced us to either get the 2 boxes or none if you want that kind of upgrade. Keep in mind that separating it into 2 boxes increases manufacturing and shipping prices. This was a very shady practice that I haven't seen them take enough heat for.
Revenue vs. Profit. Thank you for reminding me of this key business reality. A lot of popular restaurants and retailers go under by focusing on sales and not the bottom line. Game companies need to do the same if they want to create a going concern and not just one game.
100%! It was pretty eye opening to me a while back when I started talking to a dev that made a ton of revenue and no profit, and then directly afterward talked to a dev that made less than half the revenue but actually made profit.
AR are pros and I appreciate them. Their games are a safe back. Quality is top notch. In my opinion I get a lot of value from my backs. And the games are all super cool! I backed stalker, dragon eclipse, and nemesis. Before this year I backed ISS and tainted grail 2. They are a company and they have mouths to feed. As a consumer I have good faith in them and they earned my good faith. They are making cool ass games with high quality components. Heck, the last two campaigns they’ve offered standee only versions to make it affordable and accessible to everyone. It’s us deep in the hobby are willing, eager even, to drop lots of money on miniatures. If you’re complaining about the price, there are more affordable options my dudes. I discovered crowdfunding board games in the pandemic so I’m relatively new to this. I’ve been burnt already at least once. I really appreciate AR and the cool games they make.
Extracting out 2 characters into a separate box was really a big stretch in such a record-breaking successful campaign. Putting 2 miniatures into an extra box is really silly and unnecessarily costly. That was really suspicious and showed they put greed over keeping costs for backers in a reasonable range. Also, AR went from fair prices that included VAT to high prices without VAT in their campaigns in a very short period of time. That was a big jump. I really don't think it's justified.
AR started adding new addons to the pledge manger prior to COVID 19. The first time I am aware was the Tainted Grail KS. When the PM for Wave 1 opened in 2019, they offered several new miniatures including the big King Arthur one. It had nothing do with COVID or needing extra funds. I think it was just a business decision to try and drum up extra interest for the PM opening.
Look man. Awaken realms is cashing on there previously good behavior. But this is a very expensive campaign with respect to the previous two. They don’t reward the participation anymore they have a predetermined path like CMON and we only vote on the one or the other miniature design. The added value of the stretch goals was very small. They gameplay addons double the price but don’t double the gameplay. All other addons are cosmetics and very expensive for no use at all. Long story short for me even though I was planning on spending 300€ I finally decided to spend half of it. Even the untold stories is not a stretch goal any more and they want money for it. The game isn’t the WOW that I expected but I am purchasing to complete the trilogy as I believe many others. I ve seen many campaigns of awaken realms and this one feels to me like a cash grab. It is not the times that changed since the first Nemesis it is just that at that time they went the extra mile because they wanted to establish themselves and now that they are a major player in the industry they are maximizing their profits. The times when Awaken realms sacrificed some profit to get market share are long gone. Cmon rules over the US they rule Over the EU and there is no pie to share.
I hate when people downplay comments by putting them in the vocal minority category. Yes, not everyone is commenting but it's a fallacy to think that all those who don't are automatically ok with everything. It's basic statistics. The commenting people are not the entire population, they are a sample but, as a sample, they are representative of the population since it's a large sample. So, if 40% of the commenting people are complaining about the same things, we can reasonably consider the same amount of the entire population is thinking likewise. Except that those commenting are still involved with the project while others just don't comment and leave the campaign silently. Yes, there may be biases that disconnect the sample from the population but until those are clearly identified, there is NO reason to believe that those comments are not representative. Especially when the critics are converging. I don't say that people not happy are always representative, I say that it's too convenient to say they never are and that they are always an annoying minority; because it's an argument that is always blindly invoked while nothing backs that up. It's just a cheap way to discard opinions we don't like. When 40 people out of 100 are complaining about the same thing during a campaign, we can reasonably believe that thing to be controversial as a whole. The key idea here is the fact that they complain about the SAME stuff. If the complaints were completely random and diverse, things would be different then. But that's not the case since we can clearly identify the few key issues. We can't possibly be right when we praise companies for listening to their customers when those customers complain about the same things we do but then say they shouldn't listen when customers complain about issues we don't agree with. We all know the difference between a "naysayer" and a valid critic => our level of agreement with them. If negative comments were always a vocal minority, we then agree that companies should NEVER consider feedbacks. Still, we all know they should. We just think they should when we, individually, want them to...
Really liked this video. 😆 It's one that is definitely needed to help people rethink their response to the Nemesis Campaign. I have a slightly different view on the pricing of the new race vs OG Nemesis, but that is minor. Love the general sentiment, love how pragmatically you walked everyone through your thoughts. Thank you for making this video. 🙏🏼
This may be out of your realm but I wanted to bring this to your attention to maybe shed some light on it. Pandasaurus has really messed up in quality control and in customer service with The Fox Experiment. I’ve noticed some people are throwing shade towards Elizabeth Hargrave for decisions that Pandasaurus made. Can you maybe address this and clear the air/support the designer and show the difference in designer vs company in ks campaigns?
People wanting all the add-ons to be included in the base pledge is how you get the Vagrantsong 2 kickstarter. Do you want an anemic pledge where half of the stuff just doesn't end up existing? Because that's how you end up with a campaign where half the stuff just doesn't exist. And that's not even the worst iteration of that. Go look at the campaign for Mega Man the Board Game. Quality of the game itself aside, stretch goals were for alt deco versions of all the characters... only half of them funded.
My biggest problem is, if crowdfunding doesn't give you much of a deal, then what's the point of crowdfunding in the first place? As a backer you take on all the risk and have to wait 2 years to even get the game. Also, more revenue gives more profit. 10% profit on 600k is quite different than 10% profit on 6mill.
I think this is very much a YMMV thing based on the game in question and where you are located in the world and what kinds of fees, taxes and duties you might have to pay getting the game. Waiting for a game in retail can be the right call...if you can reasonably expect it to be available in retail cheaper or even at all. I paid 160 euros for the Galactic edition of Voidfall, which broke down to 135 euros for the game and 25 euros for the shipping to Canada. Looking online at Canadian boardgame shops like Boardgamebliss I see the Galactic edition is out of stock but listed at C$320. Even with free shipping in retail, the C$234 or so that I paid total was very much a great deal. The worst deals, in my experience as someone who has spent waaaaay too much on KS, are small games where the shipping can amount to half the cost of the game again. These games really bite you in the wallet compared to retail...except in those cases where the game is so small it never goes to retail or isn't available outside of a small pool of countries.
Your question presupposes availability but the reality is almost all the projects I back, this one included, have at least some element which is exclusively available via crowdfunding. Sundrop? Crowdfund exclusive. Stretchgoals? Exclusive. Art books? Exclusive. Playmats? Exclusive. Many of the expansions? Exclusive. What level of deal you get is kind of besides the point if this is the only way to get the stuff. Even referencing past campaigns from yesteryear, many of the games that were intended to see a retail release never got there. Shadows of Brimstone stuff from the KS campaign 10 years ago is usually out of stock everywhere and several of the expansions still haven’t seen a retail release. Marvel United took 3 campaigns before expansions planned for a retail release from campaign 1 finally hit stores. Maybe I could have saved 10 bucks by getting Spider-Man 3 years after everyone else but I’m pretty happy I have had it and been able to play with it in the meantime. Even Nemesis itself has had very low availability at retail for years before it saw enough commercial success to see fairly ready availability. So yeah, your question is a valid question for some stuff out there, but tons of campaigns the cost is the cost and you either pay it then, pray for a good deal on eBay, or just don’t ever get it.
The acrylic paid on for stretch goals was obviously a cash grab. If you check their own pledge level - collectors pledge, you can see that even AR themselves forgot to add that acrylic stretch goal pack in
People are backing this like crazy but I honestly think it’s nothing special. It is so similar to the previous games, if you have those and hope for this to be more action packed…I think it still is very heavy on survival. That oxygen gauge alone will annoy many people. None of the previews have even mentioned the fiddliness. That was one of the biggest criticisms of Nemesis and I see it amplified here.
Yeah, I'm still on the fence but already have many dungeon crawlers. Watching playthroughs where players just skip turns because they're running out of oxygen.... hrmm. Doesn't seem fun with that part.
In backer numbers it's still the same as the first OG Nemesis at this point. Higher revenue is just because they are essentially selling 3 games in one campaign and because prices just went up. I backed the previous 2 but I see nothing special here. Nevermind AR is still not even able to produce a simple rulebook for the game last time I checked.
I think that everything included with the core pledge for Nemesis Retaliation with over 110 minis for $109 is a decent deal, and just because they announced that there will be a bunch of new aliens doesn't mean that each specific group of them is not a stretch goal. Compare that with the recent Horizon Forbidden West campaign where you get fewer than half as many minis (that are also smaller - 25mm), no character boards, no player boards, and lackluster book maps for a whopping $150. They even overcharge for the expansions at $67 each for one boss mini, 3 small hero minis, and some cards. Easy pass on that one.
I do find it annoying when addons are added later in the campaign. I have not backed anything from AR or CMON yet but when I do I will wait till all is revealed and then decide if I want to pledge and at what level.
I'm one of those picking up the standee version as, to put it frankly, I've got enough grey plastic to try accommodate. I was more than willing to pay for the expansions offered but unfortunately Awakened Realms are unwilling/unable to provide a standee version of the expansion packs; this is something I question given the inclusion of a standee in the alternate alien queen expansion and standee stretch goal inclusions. Admittedly I'm not sure why this cannot be done given they are already creating standees but I don't have the industry knowledge to provide a rebuttal to their claim. As there isn't a standee option for the expansions I am admittedly considering cancelling my pledge. Ultimately Nemesis is a title I've had a long interest in and Retaliation looks like a great entry point but the expansions were of a lot of interest.
I am also one getting the standee version. I am also disappointed that they are not doing a standee version for all the content available. I would happily add the add-ons if they had standee versions. Even though I feel quite jaded that those of us who don't like minitures for more reasons than just the cost are being left out, we are unfortunately the minority. I decided to save the money and just get the base standee version. I have nemesis and none of the extras and it has been good enough for me. I think this will turn out to be the same and that's the way I'm going to look at it.
The interest for standees was very very low, so I can understand them not wanting to offer standee add-ons as they interest would be even lower. It gets to the point that its not worth the cost for them.
A cash heist - judge for yourself. It was supposed to be epic, and it's mediocre, the campaign didn't stand out in any way from the publishers' side. Only the fans did not disappoint and invested $10,000,000. A weak farewell, with the trilogy, nothing worth remembering. 1. one supplement that was cut into 7 parts. This is easy to understand, all it takes is a little imagination, take any Carnomorphs or Voidseeders add-on lay it out on the table and divide it into 7 parts. Can any of these parts work without the other 6? It all forms one whole. AR shredded it like a potato for fries, but it's still one potato. 2. dice - this dice was already paid for in the previous campaign. The backers, paid for the design and 3d work, paid for the die for the casting, now the cost of this dice is those 20grams of plastic. 3. 50 figures - yes but not different. When you look at the Tainted Grail campaign, Etherfields and buy a set of figurines, each one is different, each one requires the design and creation of a metal casting die, here there are only 7 figurines, not dozens of different models. 4. a pack of weapon cards, isn't it the case that without this the game itself would be very poor, and maybe even poorly playable, as there are maybe only a few weapons for 5 players in the base. (This I don't know, because I don't know what the base contains). 5. our prices are stable - Well they are not. Prices have jumped by several %, but tax is charged separately. So from $90 3 years ago today it's $109 + some $25 tax + delivery. And this is understandable, inflation has gone up, delivery costs are already at normal levels or even below pre-pandemic prices, there are plenty of containers in stock, waiting for the customer. ! There is no such thing as free. Each Stretch goal is well calculated, look at previous campaigns, in order for the publisher to add another model or cards, dices, or something additional (but not for free), the profitability threshold had to be exceeded. So supporters had to pay 20-30 thousand, how does it differ from today's campaign, the SGs are predetermined, because the minimum funding threshold was calculated and included in the price. You buy and pay for every single element and component of the game in the basic set, each SG is included in this basic price. The savings amount is $174, nothing in SG is worth that much, the whole thing is not worth that much, it's a total of 48 figures (12 models, 12 designs, 12 casting dies) and a pack of cards. When I bought Etherfields figures and alternative figures, I got 40 different models + dozens more in expansions and the base. I'm not saying that companies shouldn't make money from us, but why say that they are so generous and everything is for the fans. They feed us SG like pigeons in the park, one roll crushed into pieces, but it's still one roll. Their design, their prices, I don't have to buy it, but the whole atmosphere that it's so cheap and wonderful, that they do so much for me, as if they were looking for naive people. And this is not necessary, such a game that every 3 days there is a new SG, and it is one and the same additive, separated into one set. And why play like with children? It would be useful to have two pages of a campaign for children who want to have fun opening gifts. Handlebar, 3 days wheels, 3 days saddle, 3 days frame, WOW I can assemble my bike. And the other side for adults, 1 day, all at this price, various sets. I'm buying it, thank you, I know what I paid for. All the fun with SG ended with the new SG system, where the publisher, regardless of the amount (apart from the minimum amount), knows what he is selling, when each subsequent threshold allowed for obtaining something additional, the publisher had to, but also wanted to prepare something new, something that would attract and tempt next clients, he had to think, get involved, have different SG alternatives. Now you don't have to do that, you create a game from which you test the guts, cut them into pieces and pretend that it's something completely new, something additional. So he expects the publisher to stop pretending since he's getting real money from me. Because I don't pay with monopoly money.
@TheKingofAverage Could you have a look into Primal: The Awakening and it's shiping issues and the refusal to give refunds out when shipping has double or in the worst case is more than the cost of the pledge. The respone from Reggie Games is pretty bad.
and that's why I like to watch you and hear your thoughts. fairly balanced, interesting and true. you always make great points I hadnt considered before, its cool to kinda learn about those backgrounds and getting more familiar with what to expect or think of a campaign.
It is crazy to me that people will complain about a company making more stuff that they don’t have to buy. I don’t really see that outside of board games. I don’t complain when kitchen aid makes a new mixer attachment. I just don’t buy it.
@nipzie If people have played any of the previous games, they should be smart enough to understand that they're are perfectly fine just owning the core game though?
I love Awaken Realms. Not backing this one but backed loads of their stuff. But I do think (Gamefound income aside, as it's technically a different company) how many of their many outstanding campaigns they'd be able to fulfil if people stopped backing their stuff. I feel they're taking the same gambles the likes of Mythic have. I feel they're a safer bet, by far, and I'm still betting on them. But equally I'm not convinced that's a good way to be doing things. Mythic were doing great until they were not too.
People are just burned out on crowdfunding... It's that simple. Then the fact that there are as many losers out there that take the money and run, it is a CUSTOMERs right to be a little salty. Do not reward bad behavior.
My only real gripe with AR and my comment is not just awaken realms specifically, but they are part of this. My gripe is this. The big companies who produce games for crowdfunding are big enough to first design the game and have it ready for print, before they put it up for crowdfunding, the problem with adding a huge ton of expansions is that games like ISS Vangaurd has take around 3 years and we are still waiting for wave 2 and some people and LANG version are still waiting for the 1st wave stuff. Even if the game is 90% done that's fine, and it can be done, Ice makes had Terrorscape ready and used crowdfunding for production. I know the risk that they could put money into something and have it not fund, but the big companies should know their audience by now. At the end of the day its their business and they can run it how they want, but I am increasingly becoming frustrated with backing something now and waiting YEARS for it to materialize, its starting to put me off when all I see is renders and a little bit of artwork, and a prototype that looks like something I made back in the days, when I went to school. Expansions, stop cramming loads of expansions into the crowdfund, I end up buying into them and have games where I will never use the expansions, because I found the main box meh. I'd rather have another campaign after the core box and stretch goals are shipped, for expansions, its a weird model buying a crap ton of expansions before you have even played the game.
@@AdamJorgensen No one is forcing me to buy the core box either, but what happens if I just buy the core box and get it and then think I really wish I had gotten the rest of it? and it doesn't hit retail?????
I think focusing on core experience for 1st campaign more likely means a better game could be made. Building that word of mouth. So that’s another bonus to not having expansions till the second KS, besides faster turnaround time. I do believe games needs to be in much later stages of development. Less risk and quicker turnaround time.
@@zenster1097 Not just that, but its weird to buy expansions for a game you have never played, not only that but when the second campaign comes up then people who missed out can have crack at getting the core box (and expansions as they may have played game and liked it) plus it should stop LANG or if they do all at the same time holding back the ENG version (that gets my back up) versions being delayed for so long, especially on these big campaign games.
So, you are telling a company to stop selling you something that you have no self-control over and just have to buy it? If I were the company i would double the amount expansions just because of consumers like you.
Hey! Would love for you to a deep dive on Black Box Adventures and the Adventures in Neverland campaign. 3 years late and the updates with excuses have actually become a joke amongst the backers.. really quite a wild ride! Would love to have some light shed of these scammers 🙏
I appreciate the discussion in a lot of your videos. However, I’m a bit turned off by the click-bait-y title and thumbnails that you often use. But, I guess it’s par for the course for a lot of content creators. For myself, I’d be more likely to subscribe to a channel or like a video that didn’t employ such tactics.
Yeah I'm not sure I follow you on this one. Awaken Realms responds to people upset and feeling like their campaign is, and I quote, a cash grab. They respond by writing about what most companies don't, the actual business side of running a campaign. That's quite literally reflected in both my thumbnail and my title. But, we're all different and it appears you disagree which is fine. I suppose I guess just know that I did try to really summarize the subject of the video and allow anyone that clicks on it to have proper expectations to what the video speaks about. :)
@@TheKingofAverage “CASH GRAB? AR just said the quiet part out loud!” That’s what potential viewers see when your video pops up as a suggestion. While that may be part of what’s discussed in your video, the connotation of what’s presented does not match the tone of the actual discussion. But like you said, we can have different opinions.
Almost everything we as viewers get annoyed by is a result of the UA-cam algorithm and content makers reacting to what works and Google telling them they should do. The rise of click-baity titles and over-produced thumbnails is how YT (and all modern internet media) works. Be annoyed by the algorithm, not the people being forced to play by its rules. I hope one day I'll find most if my preferred boardgame channels on Nebula. So we all have an actual alternative to YT.
I agree with the OP. What I do when I see creators make obvious click bait titles is just thumbs down, even if I like the videos. If it's extreme and repetitive, I even unfollow. Not the case here, but it's a practice we should try to stop.
Speaking of cash grabs. Do you think CMON might be in a little trouble? DCeased only raised 2.5M And they had failures in morded and cyberpunk. I think that’s why they will launch another united game. United makes them a LOT.
Lol no, they're fine. You're forgetting they have a big retail presence. King went into this in another recent video. While a good chunk of their cashflow does come from KS, another good chunk flows in from retail. CMON are nowhere close to being in trouble.
DCeased is also cheaper for them to make since it unlocked less thanks to the lower goal. Ideally that's relative. But they have certainly fallen over the years from their previous top spot. Everyone expected Marvel Zombies to make more too.
@@TheKingofAverage I think the Fiasco with Marvel zombies and the shipping hurt them more than they will admit to. I would have bought a lot more stuff in the pledge manager if it wasn't for that. It also made me reluctant to back anything else they done, those shipping prices stung.
@@TheKingofAverageEveryone expected Marvel Zombies to make more? Come on, mate, I really don't think that's accurate. It raked in $9 million. That's the fourth biggest campaign of all time. I really don't think everyone was expecting yet another zombicide to rake in more than that, and in fact during the campaign multiple channels talked about how it was going gangbusters.
ZC: Invader was my first CMON game, and it'll (probably) be my last, but I should've done the research. It felt predatory alternating SGs and Add Ons because I realized my deluxe pledge wasn't an All In, but after the campaign, I basically saw what I was doing was buying ALL the expansions sight unseen. Had I gotten the game first, then the expansions as they came out, I wouldn't have batted an eye. Despite this, I'm grateful for Invader; i like the game and it burst the FOMO KS bubble for me.
I did not go in as I have nemesis and for me it’s the perfect alien game and I would rather play that more that a different version. I understood at the start they said they would revisit nemesis one last time. So all the add ons for me and probably many of their ideas they are cramming in as it may be the last version. I wonder how much of the issue is driven by people overwhelmed with Fomo and therefore to get all the price goes up and up and up. I have seen people never play a nemesis game but go for the mega all in at $900. I think it’s hard to blame awaken realms for this I think it’s a great campaign and I ask the question will you really use all those add ons?
Cash grab all they want. I’ve only got the first nemesis and picked up a ton of stuff for a lot cheaper than I could have gotten it off eBay. So I’m happy.
I wanted to get Nemesis ages ago but it wasn't in print so it was very expensive the. Reprints were announced along side loxkdown so I just got lockdown as it is oretty nuch the same damn thing really. Have no desire yo jump on this one myself.
I have both 1 and 2 but i instantly said no to this 3rd game the second i saw the minis were drastically smaller scale. They claimed it isnt possible to make but in reality they werent making enough profit from the estimates. Bet they could have made more if they had gone bigger with the og scale as they could charge more and people would have paid for big minis. Dimension Games and Cmon proved people love big models
@@ScytheNoire they made the aliens a bit bigger but not to the Old Nemesis style, but they reverted the mini size for the Player characters so they could bring back compatibility (kind of)
I hate these kind of discussions. Yes all the points you made may be true… but that’s business. That’s how the world works. Why is this suddenly a problem when it comes to board games
Once your pot committed - it’s all-in after that. AR is great at adding fluff but if you stick with gameplay items - it’s a solid deal. Go price OG Nemisis on say MM and you’ll be amazed at the deal you can get now on KS albeit in a year. For 5-600 you can get all gameplay for three games on stretch pay - likely where I’m leaning on this one. Cats,art books, sleeves, alt sculps - pass on all that stuff. If they describe an add-on as does not change gameplay - purely cosmetic - it’s an easy pass.
That's a great point. AR above many of their peers enjoy adding nice to have but completely unnecessary things for people who want them. But gameplay all in remains typically around the same I imagine.
I'll always take the safe back over a good deal. As someone who's only been in the board gaming space for about 10 months now, the only games I've backed are from developers who've delivered previously (the games are Elder Scrolls: BOTSE, Dragon Eclipse, STALKER, and Andromeda's Edge). I'm just not here to gamble with my money in hopes that I'll get the product just because it's a good deal. I'd rather pay a little more than I'd want to a company that I know is going to deliver my product.
What we the end consumer never see if the very large trash can in the AR office full of failed concepts and ideas that went no-where, so I disagree that the amount of effort put into it should not be reflected in the costs. They should be calculated into the profit margin to fund next product development giving the creatives as much space and opportunity to fail in order to deliver amazing products. If you don't....
I actually backed out of this campaign on Friday. The release of darker and more grotesque minis makes it less family friendly for me. I realize that I could easily just not play with any of the stretch goals or expansions, but that goes against the completionist in me… 🤣 It also comes down to the fact that I backed way too much this year, and if I get this, it’s going to be a few years before I even get to table it. I’m ok to wait on the horror genre with my kids for a while longer. Looks like a good game, but saving my wallet on this one.
Stretch goals at this level of crowdfunding are a nonsense, and I'd challenge those complaining about the number of stretch goals to change their thinking and base their buying decisions on the overall package - the split between core content and stretch goals is a an irrelevant marketing tool.
Personal question: Do you received the last two emails from mythic games? at what are they playing, kidding? is kind a promotion of a new game?? opinion?
I think AR is definitely a trustworthy company, but I really don't like how I never know what the actual proce of the game is until the end of the campaign. Paid stretchgoals are kind of annoying. I'd rather they put the stuff they plan on charging for upfront, and save the stretchgoals for the smaller, free stuff. It's a particularly annoying habit of AR to have the all-in available on day one that isnt even an all-in. Oh well!
An interesting analysis would be comparison of crowdfunded vs non crowdfunded games to see what you get and prices they sell for. Also comparative profits for the companies involved. I feel original idea was sound, support startups to get off the ground and have influence over final product. But now its used by established companies to minimise risk and maximise profit. Just basic capitalism but I'd ask whether the real losers as a result are the consumers who are being milked. Much like emergence of micro transactions in computer games...
So confused on people being upset at the value offered here. The core pledge of retaliation I think is one of the best pledges in terms of content and components we have seen this year. But appreciate ARs post and thought your coverage was excellent……though now all I can see on that alien is tighty whities
The thumbnail. It's unnecessary. I feel this creates negative association with the game for no good reason. And no the ? mark does not help. I watched the hole video despite the 'click grab' thumbnail. It doesn't feel right. Apart from this l watch the channel regularly and with pleasure. Just a thought sorry.
Me finishing z cide 2nd ed pledge manager My wife "why are'nt you getting everything" Me "come sit n lets do it together" Wife "oh yeah get that, yeah we should get that too, yes and that for sure" Me "this is the final total" Wife "ohhhhhhhhh" Me " don't think we need the cars right" Wife "are we done c mon?" Me "yep" You rock. Was afraid we hit a time machine and you were gonna trash awakend with your full averice😂 Still love nemisis and DMD and Z Cide. Havent played dawn fall since i first got it
This community used to be very understanding and intelligent. Sadly, as the hobby expands, we are exhausting the pool of the understanding and intelligent people and now we see the influx of those who think everything is a cash grab, and that the publishers should not be making any profit. We get some good games but I'm wondering when this price will no longer be worth paying.
people should get paid for their time/talent and make $ for sure, BUT that can easily turn towards greed and now you've limited accessibility to your products to ONLY the rich (e.g. a very niche clientele). turn it to sports ex. the $ barrier to entry level hockey kept it a niche sport for a long time.
I disagree with you that the amount of effort to develop a game should not go into its cost, and I will give you what I regard is the primary example. some games require a great deal more play testing to get properly balanced. play testing is a cost of developing the game, and having to do all that extra testing is something that really should be properly reimbursed.-Toby
Perhaps should, but don't. I've spoken with devs about this because you are right, not all games cost the same to develop. A tight eurogame with a single board, low rule count (but nuanced of course) and a handful of art assets costs way less than some gigantic dungeon crawl with hundreds of art pieces to create, tons of different minis to sculpt, lots of missions to balance and classes, etc. Yet you can't charge multiple times the price of the dungeon crawl with all of that but fewer missions. Every dev I've spoken to on this has said the same thing. It simply costs more to create your game (not necessarily manufacture), but you can't charge extra for that really. You could, but you most likely won't sell as well.
One of the biggest problems with kick starter is not the company's but the backers. People don't realise its an investment to start the creation of a game. It's not a preorder system. To many people who moan about game content and not getting anything they have paid for. I would love to see you do a video explaining this
It’s not an investment, it’s an interest free loan at best. I think that backers treating crowdfunding as a preorder system stems directly from the same behavior by companies. AR and CMON don’t need crowdfunding to make these games. They both have very solid retail presence, and the whole existence of unlocks rather than stretch goals means they always intended that stuff to be part of the game anyway. For many of these campaigns, they really are just pre-orders.
Every game on KS is a cash grab, that's what a business is, that is all they said and its obvious. If you want awesome games by an established high performing publisher, you should be prepared to pay, overpromising has bankrupted a tonne of companies in the last few years, they cant afford to be too generous and are not obliged to in any way.
This game looks f- zing boring ! Nothing new to see here! Chronicles of drungor , sword and sorcery , galaxy defenders, black stone fortress, death may die . All way better games ..
Thinking this is "going after" a company is laughable. Did you even watch the video or just look at the thumbnail and assume? I compliment and say I think AR doing this is awesome throughout the video man.
Man, takes like yours are so darn reductive. Use some critical thought, people are allowed to voice their displeasure online. Maybe go find a hugbox that will reaffirm your opinions?
This is the worst take, entirely unhelpful and frankly dumb. People can be critical you know. Of everything. The result doesn’t have to be that they don’t buy it. There is a scale. You can buy it and still want it to be better here and there. I can love an Audi and still complain that it doesn’t have a rear view camera for example.
I'm one of the guys in the comments of the campaign 'accusing' them of making cash-grabs of certain items. Someone asked me to define what a cash-grab is (for me I guess). This is what I replied: @***** Well for one it's a too-high (in ones opinion) price for a popular item. Another thing is what they're doing with the acrylics for example. They obviously saw how popular the acrylics pack was, so they know people want them. In stead of adding the SG acylics to the original pack (like they said they would I believe, but don't quote me on that), they created another add-on for it, kinda 'forcing' people that bought the original pack to also now buy the second one. Not 'force' as in they make you buy it of course, but they already know you want acrylics, and kinda prey on that. That, to me, is how they create a cash-grab. They sniffed blood and turned that into a way to make more money. Yes, they are a company, but when you're raking in so much money, they could've giving back a tiny bit of it by adding the SG acrylics to the original acrylic pack. From the start I assumed more contect was coming to the acylic pack, because it didn't have much. It was expensive as it was (and quite incomplete). The other cash-grab for me was the 2 character add-on. That should've been free. For me personally: I really don't need another 50 (!) aliens in the SG's. About 40 would've been quite enough, and they could've had room to give us the 2 extra characters. It's all about optics in my opinion. That's what most people that are critical actually talk about. So in the end cash grabs are about a combination of 2 things: price (too high or extra) and optics (the way it's presented).
Whoa wait...they made acrylics for the stretch goals a SEPARATE add on? F#$king kidding? That's absolute horseshit Edit - I actually cancelled. It's only $8, but the principle of it really irks me. Stretch goals are part of the package. Add ons are separate, so an acrylic pack for those makes sense.
Yeah it wasn’t obvious, I am telling you by the time the game fulfills, there would be people who didn’t read and didn’t realise they have ended up with an incomplete acrylic pack
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I love this board game industry commentary. No one else does it like this. Great stuff
This was a fun one, glad you liked it! :)
Wait, what? Of course the effort put into a game is part of the cost.
More design work, more play testing, more development cycles - that's all work hours. Hours for which employees get paid and even self-employed people want to see eventually some pay-off for.
Saying that the price should only be driven by manufacturing costs is how we get to ramshackle designs that are thrown together and never properly tested and developed.
All the costs are costs. Doesn't matter if it involves cardboard, wood, plastic or work hours.
Otherwise good video, but this weird statement stood out.
super agree - as soon as I heard that statement, I came to the comments to see if anyone else had called it out.
A lot of great comments, opinions and explanations in this video, but this was absolutely not one of them.
There's a book on accounting called The Accounting Game that I think is a must read for everyone. It'll show exactly what you are talking about here in regards to business practices and figuring out the bottom line. And does it in a very easy to follow, even kid/teen friendly, manner.
oh? I'll look into it!
My only criticism is their bait and switch with acrylic tokens. Day one we had Core box and then an acrylic token add-on for $14, which was a good price. Later in the campaign they created a new acrylic token add-on just for the Stretch goals. Who in their sane mind would buy a partial acrylic add-on? They basically forced us to either get the 2 boxes or none if you want that kind of upgrade. Keep in mind that separating it into 2 boxes increases manufacturing and shipping prices. This was a very shady practice that I haven't seen them take enough heat for.
Great Video again! Thank you! So much balanced and well thought over arguments, I really like this! Thank you!
You are quite welcome :)
Revenue vs. Profit. Thank you for reminding me of this key business reality. A lot of popular restaurants and retailers go under by focusing on sales and not the bottom line. Game companies need to do the same if they want to create a going concern and not just one game.
100%! It was pretty eye opening to me a while back when I started talking to a dev that made a ton of revenue and no profit, and then directly afterward talked to a dev that made less than half the revenue but actually made profit.
AR are pros and I appreciate them. Their games are a safe back. Quality is top notch. In my opinion I get a lot of value from my backs. And the games are all super cool! I backed stalker, dragon eclipse, and nemesis. Before this year I backed ISS and tainted grail 2.
They are a company and they have mouths to feed. As a consumer I have good faith in them and they earned my good faith. They are making cool ass games with high quality components. Heck, the last two campaigns they’ve offered standee only versions to make it affordable and accessible to everyone. It’s us deep in the hobby are willing, eager even, to drop lots of money on miniatures. If you’re complaining about the price, there are more affordable options my dudes.
I discovered crowdfunding board games in the pandemic so I’m relatively new to this. I’ve been burnt already at least once. I really appreciate AR and the cool games they make.
Very well said.
I own most AR games, and completely agree.
Extracting out 2 characters into a separate box was really a big stretch in such a record-breaking successful campaign. Putting 2 miniatures into an extra box is really silly and unnecessarily costly. That was really suspicious and showed they put greed over keeping costs for backers in a reasonable range.
Also, AR went from fair prices that included VAT to high prices without VAT in their campaigns in a very short period of time. That was a big jump. I really don't think it's justified.
AR started adding new addons to the pledge manger prior to COVID 19. The first time I am aware was the Tainted Grail KS. When the PM for Wave 1 opened in 2019, they offered several new miniatures including the big King Arthur one. It had nothing do with COVID or needing extra funds. I think it was just a business decision to try and drum up extra interest for the PM opening.
Look man. Awaken realms is cashing on there previously good behavior. But this is a very expensive campaign with respect to the previous two. They don’t reward the participation anymore they have a predetermined path like CMON and we only vote on the one or the other miniature design. The added value of the stretch goals was very small. They gameplay addons double the price but don’t double the gameplay. All other addons are cosmetics and very expensive for no use at all. Long story short for me even though I was planning on spending 300€ I finally decided to spend half of it. Even the untold stories is not a stretch goal any more and they want money for it. The game isn’t the WOW that I expected but I am purchasing to complete the trilogy as I believe many others. I ve seen many campaigns of awaken realms and this one feels to me like a cash grab. It is not the times that changed since the first Nemesis it is just that at that time they went the extra mile because they wanted to establish themselves and now that they are a major player in the industry they are maximizing their profits. The times when Awaken realms sacrificed some profit to get market share are long gone. Cmon rules over the US they rule Over the EU and there is no pie to share.
Modiphius are doing stretch goal add-ons with the Discworld RPG (unless you back at the £300 tier)
My biggest problem is that we don't have the rulebook or a solo playtrough
I believe one stop coop stop or rolling solo did a solo play through.
Rule books are going to be shite… it’s the AR way.
I hate when people downplay comments by putting them in the vocal minority category.
Yes, not everyone is commenting but it's a fallacy to think that all those who don't are automatically ok with everything.
It's basic statistics. The commenting people are not the entire population, they are a sample but, as a sample, they are representative of the population since it's a large sample. So, if 40% of the commenting people are complaining about the same things, we can reasonably consider the same amount of the entire population is thinking likewise. Except that those commenting are still involved with the project while others just don't comment and leave the campaign silently.
Yes, there may be biases that disconnect the sample from the population but until those are clearly identified, there is NO reason to believe that those comments are not representative. Especially when the critics are converging.
I don't say that people not happy are always representative, I say that it's too convenient to say they never are and that they are always an annoying minority; because it's an argument that is always blindly invoked while nothing backs that up. It's just a cheap way to discard opinions we don't like.
When 40 people out of 100 are complaining about the same thing during a campaign, we can reasonably believe that thing to be controversial as a whole.
The key idea here is the fact that they complain about the SAME stuff. If the complaints were completely random and diverse, things would be different then. But that's not the case since we can clearly identify the few key issues.
We can't possibly be right when we praise companies for listening to their customers when those customers complain about the same things we do but then say they shouldn't listen when customers complain about issues we don't agree with.
We all know the difference between a "naysayer" and a valid critic => our level of agreement with them.
If negative comments were always a vocal minority, we then agree that companies should NEVER consider feedbacks.
Still, we all know they should. We just think they should when we, individually, want them to...
Well said
Really liked this video. 😆
It's one that is definitely needed to help people rethink their response to the Nemesis Campaign.
I have a slightly different view on the pricing of the new race vs OG Nemesis, but that is minor.
Love the general sentiment, love how pragmatically you walked everyone through your thoughts.
Thank you for making this video. 🙏🏼
Hey, you're familiar
Fancy seeing you here 🤣
You are quite welcome :)
great video by the way, kudos!
This may be out of your realm but I wanted to bring this to your attention to maybe shed some light on it.
Pandasaurus has really messed up in quality control and in customer service with The Fox Experiment. I’ve noticed some people are throwing shade towards Elizabeth Hargrave for decisions that Pandasaurus made. Can you maybe address this and clear the air/support the designer and show the difference in designer vs company in ks campaigns?
I do think there was something lost in translation regarding "cash grab" and how it may be interpreted across the world.
Oh I suppose that's certainly possible, good point!
People wanting all the add-ons to be included in the base pledge is how you get the Vagrantsong 2 kickstarter. Do you want an anemic pledge where half of the stuff just doesn't end up existing? Because that's how you end up with a campaign where half the stuff just doesn't exist. And that's not even the worst iteration of that. Go look at the campaign for Mega Man the Board Game. Quality of the game itself aside, stretch goals were for alt deco versions of all the characters... only half of them funded.
How is Age of Rome? I received it, but haven't opened it yet.
My biggest problem is, if crowdfunding doesn't give you much of a deal, then what's the point of crowdfunding in the first place? As a backer you take on all the risk and have to wait 2 years to even get the game.
Also, more revenue gives more profit. 10% profit on 600k is quite different than 10% profit on 6mill.
I think this is very much a YMMV thing based on the game in question and where you are located in the world and what kinds of fees, taxes and duties you might have to pay getting the game.
Waiting for a game in retail can be the right call...if you can reasonably expect it to be available in retail cheaper or even at all.
I paid 160 euros for the Galactic edition of Voidfall, which broke down to 135 euros for the game and 25 euros for the shipping to Canada.
Looking online at Canadian boardgame shops like Boardgamebliss I see the Galactic edition is out of stock but listed at C$320. Even with free shipping in retail, the C$234 or so that I paid total was very much a great deal.
The worst deals, in my experience as someone who has spent waaaaay too much on KS, are small games where the shipping can amount to half the cost of the game again. These games really bite you in the wallet compared to retail...except in those cases where the game is so small it never goes to retail or isn't available outside of a small pool of countries.
Your question presupposes availability but the reality is almost all the projects I back, this one included, have at least some element which is exclusively available via crowdfunding. Sundrop? Crowdfund exclusive. Stretchgoals? Exclusive. Art books? Exclusive. Playmats? Exclusive. Many of the expansions? Exclusive.
What level of deal you get is kind of besides the point if this is the only way to get the stuff.
Even referencing past campaigns from yesteryear, many of the games that were intended to see a retail release never got there. Shadows of Brimstone stuff from the KS campaign 10 years ago is usually out of stock everywhere and several of the expansions still haven’t seen a retail release.
Marvel United took 3 campaigns before expansions planned for a retail release from campaign 1 finally hit stores. Maybe I could have saved 10 bucks by getting Spider-Man 3 years after everyone else but I’m pretty happy I have had it and been able to play with it in the meantime.
Even Nemesis itself has had very low availability at retail for years before it saw enough commercial success to see fairly ready availability.
So yeah, your question is a valid question for some stuff out there, but tons of campaigns the cost is the cost and you either pay it then, pray for a good deal on eBay, or just don’t ever get it.
"then what's the point of crowdfunding in the first place?"
Being able to fund the production of the game, or a much better version of the game.
The acrylic paid on for stretch goals was obviously a cash grab. If you check their own pledge level - collectors pledge, you can see that even AR themselves forgot to add that acrylic stretch goal pack in
Let's not forget they also offer a standee version. They are a business, they try to make money. My bigger gripe is that VAT no longer seems included.
People are backing this like crazy but I honestly think it’s nothing special. It is so similar to the previous games, if you have those and hope for this to be more action packed…I think it still is very heavy on survival. That oxygen gauge alone will annoy many people. None of the previews have even mentioned the fiddliness. That was one of the biggest criticisms of Nemesis and I see it amplified here.
Yeah, I'm still on the fence but already have many dungeon crawlers. Watching playthroughs where players just skip turns because they're running out of oxygen.... hrmm. Doesn't seem fun with that part.
In backer numbers it's still the same as the first OG Nemesis at this point. Higher revenue is just because they are essentially selling 3 games in one campaign and because prices just went up. I backed the previous 2 but I see nothing special here. Nevermind AR is still not even able to produce a simple rulebook for the game last time I checked.
I think that everything included with the core pledge for Nemesis Retaliation with over 110 minis for $109 is a decent deal, and just because they announced that there will be a bunch of new aliens doesn't mean that each specific group of them is not a stretch goal. Compare that with the recent Horizon Forbidden West campaign where you get fewer than half as many minis (that are also smaller - 25mm), no character boards, no player boards, and lackluster book maps for a whopping $150. They even overcharge for the expansions at $67 each for one boss mini, 3 small hero minis, and some cards. Easy pass on that one.
That's why I dropped out of that one. The add-ons doubled the cost of the pledge. It got expensive fast. And didn't seem worth it anymore..
Small correction, it's actually without VAT, so for me it becomes $136 (+$18 shipping in EU). So in reality, it's gonna cost you about $154.
I do find it annoying when addons are added later in the campaign. I have not backed anything from AR or CMON yet but when I do I will wait till all is revealed and then decide if I want to pledge and at what level.
I'm one of those picking up the standee version as, to put it frankly, I've got enough grey plastic to try accommodate. I was more than willing to pay for the expansions offered but unfortunately Awakened Realms are unwilling/unable to provide a standee version of the expansion packs; this is something I question given the inclusion of a standee in the alternate alien queen expansion and standee stretch goal inclusions. Admittedly I'm not sure why this cannot be done given they are already creating standees but I don't have the industry knowledge to provide a rebuttal to their claim.
As there isn't a standee option for the expansions I am admittedly considering cancelling my pledge. Ultimately Nemesis is a title I've had a long interest in and Retaliation looks like a great entry point but the expansions were of a lot of interest.
I am also one getting the standee version. I am also disappointed that they are not doing a standee version for all the content available. I would happily add the add-ons if they had standee versions. Even though I feel quite jaded that those of us who don't like minitures for more reasons than just the cost are being left out, we are unfortunately the minority. I decided to save the money and just get the base standee version. I have nemesis and none of the extras and it has been good enough for me. I think this will turn out to be the same and that's the way I'm going to look at it.
The interest for standees was very very low, so I can understand them not wanting to offer standee add-ons as they interest would be even lower. It gets to the point that its not worth the cost for them.
Where do you change dark mode for gamefound? I cant find it
I use an extension called Dark Reader that forces sites into Dark Mode. :)
Thx, I thought I was just missing something lol @@TheKingofAverage
Is Primal still a safe back? in your opinion? it has been so overdue u c. Still extremely looking forward to it though.
A cash heist - judge for yourself.
It was supposed to be epic, and it's mediocre, the campaign didn't stand out in any way from the publishers' side. Only the fans did not disappoint and invested $10,000,000. A weak farewell, with the trilogy, nothing worth remembering.
1. one supplement that was cut into 7 parts.
This is easy to understand, all it takes is a little imagination, take any Carnomorphs or Voidseeders add-on lay it out on the table and divide it into 7 parts. Can any of these parts work without the other 6? It all forms one whole. AR shredded it like a potato for fries, but it's still one potato.
2. dice - this dice was already paid for in the previous campaign. The backers, paid for the design and 3d work, paid for the die for the casting, now the cost of this dice is those 20grams of plastic.
3. 50 figures - yes but not different. When you look at the Tainted Grail campaign, Etherfields and buy a set of figurines, each one is different, each one requires the design and creation of a metal casting die, here there are only 7 figurines, not dozens of different models.
4. a pack of weapon cards, isn't it the case that without this the game itself would be very poor, and maybe even poorly playable, as there are maybe only a few weapons for 5 players in the base. (This I don't know, because I don't know what the base contains).
5. our prices are stable - Well they are not. Prices have jumped by several %, but tax is charged separately. So from $90 3 years ago today it's $109 + some $25 tax + delivery. And this is understandable, inflation has gone up, delivery costs are already at normal levels or even below pre-pandemic prices, there are plenty of containers in stock, waiting for the customer.
! There is no such thing as free. Each Stretch goal is well calculated, look at previous campaigns, in order for the publisher to add another model or cards, dices, or something additional (but not for free), the profitability threshold had to be exceeded. So supporters had to pay 20-30 thousand, how does it differ from today's campaign, the SGs are predetermined, because the minimum funding threshold was calculated and included in the price. You buy and pay for every single element and component of the game in the basic set, each SG is included in this basic price.
The savings amount is $174, nothing in SG is worth that much, the whole thing is not worth that much, it's a total of 48 figures (12 models, 12 designs, 12 casting dies) and a pack of cards. When I bought Etherfields figures and alternative figures, I got 40 different models + dozens more in expansions and the base.
I'm not saying that companies shouldn't make money from us, but why say that they are so generous and everything is for the fans. They feed us SG like pigeons in the park, one roll crushed into pieces, but it's still one roll.
Their design, their prices, I don't have to buy it, but the whole atmosphere that it's so cheap and wonderful, that they do so much for me, as if they were looking for naive people. And this is not necessary, such a game that every 3 days there is a new SG, and it is one and the same additive, separated into one set. And why play like with children? It would be useful to have two pages of a campaign for children who want to have fun opening gifts. Handlebar, 3 days wheels, 3 days saddle, 3 days frame, WOW I can assemble my bike. And the other side for adults, 1 day, all at this price, various sets. I'm buying it, thank you, I know what I paid for.
All the fun with SG ended with the new SG system, where the publisher, regardless of the amount (apart from the minimum amount), knows what he is selling, when each subsequent threshold allowed for obtaining something additional, the publisher had to, but also wanted to prepare something new, something that would attract and tempt next clients, he had to think, get involved, have different SG alternatives. Now you don't have to do that, you create a game from which you test the guts, cut them into pieces and pretend that it's something completely new, something additional. So he expects the publisher to stop pretending since he's getting real money from me. Because I don't pay with monopoly money.
@TheKingofAverage Could you have a look into Primal: The Awakening and it's shiping issues and the refusal to give refunds out when shipping has double or in the worst case is more than the cost of the pledge. The respone from Reggie Games is pretty bad.
and that's why I like to watch you and hear your thoughts. fairly balanced, interesting and true. you always make great points I hadnt considered before, its cool to kinda learn about those backgrounds and getting more familiar with what to expect or think of a campaign.
It is crazy to me that people will complain about a company making more stuff that they don’t have to buy. I don’t really see that outside of board games.
I don’t complain when kitchen aid makes a new mixer attachment. I just don’t buy it.
It's mainly because crowdfunding is a FOMO based business. They're making the demand up as opposed to feeding a demand
@nipzie If people have played any of the previous games, they should be smart enough to understand that they're are perfectly fine just owning the core game though?
I love Awaken Realms. Not backing this one but backed loads of their stuff. But I do think (Gamefound income aside, as it's technically a different company) how many of their many outstanding campaigns they'd be able to fulfil if people stopped backing their stuff. I feel they're taking the same gambles the likes of Mythic have. I feel they're a safer bet, by far, and I'm still betting on them. But equally I'm not convinced that's a good way to be doing things. Mythic were doing great until they were not too.
People are just burned out on crowdfunding... It's that simple.
Then the fact that there are as many losers out there that take the money and run, it is a CUSTOMERs right to be a little salty.
Do not reward bad behavior.
My only real gripe with AR and my comment is not just awaken realms specifically, but they are part of this.
My gripe is this.
The big companies who produce games for crowdfunding are big enough to first design the game and have it ready for print, before they put it up for crowdfunding, the problem with adding a huge ton of expansions is that games like ISS Vangaurd has take around 3 years and we are still waiting for wave 2 and some people and LANG version are still waiting for the 1st wave stuff.
Even if the game is 90% done that's fine, and it can be done, Ice makes had Terrorscape ready and used crowdfunding for production. I know the risk that they could put money into something and have it not fund, but the big companies should know their audience by now.
At the end of the day its their business and they can run it how they want, but I am increasingly becoming frustrated with backing something now and waiting YEARS for it to materialize, its starting to put me off when all I see is renders and a little bit of artwork, and a prototype that looks like something I made back in the days, when I went to school.
Expansions, stop cramming loads of expansions into the crowdfund, I end up buying into them and have games where I will never use the expansions, because I found the main box meh. I'd rather have another campaign after the core box and stretch goals are shipped, for expansions, its a weird model buying a crap ton of expansions before you have even played the game.
No one is forcing you to buy the expansions tho...
@@AdamJorgensen No one is forcing me to buy the core box either, but what happens if I just buy the core box and get it and then think I really wish I had gotten the rest of it? and it doesn't hit retail?????
I think focusing on core experience for 1st campaign more likely means a better game could be made. Building that word of mouth. So that’s another bonus to not having expansions till the second KS, besides faster turnaround time. I do believe games needs to be in much later stages of development. Less risk and quicker turnaround time.
@@zenster1097 Not just that, but its weird to buy expansions for a game you have never played, not only that but when the second campaign comes up then people who missed out can have crack at getting the core box (and expansions as they may have played game and liked it) plus it should stop LANG or if they do all at the same time holding back the ENG version (that gets my back up) versions being delayed for so long, especially on these big campaign games.
So, you are telling a company to stop selling you something that you have no self-control over and just have to buy it? If I were the company i would double the amount expansions just because of consumers like you.
Hey! Would love for you to a deep dive on Black Box Adventures and the Adventures in Neverland campaign. 3 years late and the updates with excuses have actually become a joke amongst the backers.. really quite a wild ride! Would love to have some light shed of these scammers 🙏
Zombicide: Nemesis
It reads almost like people expect them to make games for free
very open and good response from awaken realms!
Agreed! :) Loved it :D
I appreciate the discussion in a lot of your videos. However, I’m a bit turned off by the click-bait-y title and thumbnails that you often use. But, I guess it’s par for the course for a lot of content creators. For myself, I’d be more likely to subscribe to a channel or like a video that didn’t employ such tactics.
Yeah I'm not sure I follow you on this one. Awaken Realms responds to people upset and feeling like their campaign is, and I quote, a cash grab. They respond by writing about what most companies don't, the actual business side of running a campaign.
That's quite literally reflected in both my thumbnail and my title.
But, we're all different and it appears you disagree which is fine. I suppose I guess just know that I did try to really summarize the subject of the video and allow anyone that clicks on it to have proper expectations to what the video speaks about. :)
@@TheKingofAverage “CASH GRAB? AR just said the quiet part out loud!”
That’s what potential viewers see when your video pops up as a suggestion. While that may be part of what’s discussed in your video, the connotation of what’s presented does not match the tone of the actual discussion. But like you said, we can have different opinions.
Almost everything we as viewers get annoyed by is a result of the UA-cam algorithm and content makers reacting to what works and Google telling them they should do.
The rise of click-baity titles and over-produced thumbnails is how YT (and all modern internet media) works.
Be annoyed by the algorithm, not the people being forced to play by its rules.
I hope one day I'll find most if my preferred boardgame channels on Nebula. So we all have an actual alternative to YT.
I agree with the OP. What I do when I see creators make obvious click bait titles is just thumbs down, even if I like the videos. If it's extreme and repetitive, I even unfollow. Not the case here, but it's a practice we should try to stop.
Thumbnail read really negative which is at odds with the video, which is a solid analysis of a great update.
Speaking of cash grabs.
Do you think CMON might be in a little trouble?
DCeased only raised 2.5M
And they had failures in morded and cyberpunk.
I think that’s why they will launch another united game. United makes them a LOT.
Lol no, they're fine. You're forgetting they have a big retail presence. King went into this in another recent video. While a good chunk of their cashflow does come from KS, another good chunk flows in from retail.
CMON are nowhere close to being in trouble.
I was going to back Dceased but honestly it looked a bit rubbish.
DCeased is also cheaper for them to make since it unlocked less thanks to the lower goal. Ideally that's relative.
But they have certainly fallen over the years from their previous top spot. Everyone expected Marvel Zombies to make more too.
@@TheKingofAverage I think the Fiasco with Marvel zombies and the shipping hurt them more than they will admit to.
I would have bought a lot more stuff in the pledge manager if it wasn't for that.
It also made me reluctant to back anything else they done, those shipping prices stung.
@@TheKingofAverageEveryone expected Marvel Zombies to make more?
Come on, mate, I really don't think that's accurate. It raked in $9 million. That's the fourth biggest campaign of all time. I really don't think everyone was expecting yet another zombicide to rake in more than that, and in fact during the campaign multiple channels talked about how it was going gangbusters.
ZC: Invader was my first CMON game, and it'll (probably) be my last, but I should've done the research.
It felt predatory alternating SGs and Add Ons because I realized my deluxe pledge wasn't an All In, but after the campaign, I basically saw what I was doing was buying ALL the expansions sight unseen. Had I gotten the game first, then the expansions as they came out, I wouldn't have batted an eye.
Despite this, I'm grateful for Invader; i like the game and it burst the FOMO KS bubble for me.
I did not go in as I have nemesis and for me it’s the perfect alien game and I would rather play that more that a different version. I understood at the start they said they would revisit nemesis one last time. So all the add ons for me and probably many of their ideas they are cramming in as it may be the last version. I wonder how much of the issue is driven by people overwhelmed with Fomo and therefore to get all the price goes up and up and up. I have seen people never play a nemesis game but go for the mega all in at $900. I think it’s hard to blame awaken realms for this I think it’s a great campaign and I ask the question will you really use all those add ons?
Cash grab all they want. I’ve only got the first nemesis and picked up a ton of stuff for a lot cheaper than I could have gotten it off eBay. So I’m happy.
I wanted to get Nemesis ages ago but it wasn't in print so it was very expensive the. Reprints were announced along side loxkdown so I just got lockdown as it is oretty nuch the same damn thing really. Have no desire yo jump on this one myself.
I have both 1 and 2 but i instantly said no to this 3rd game the second i saw the minis were drastically smaller scale. They claimed it isnt possible to make but in reality they werent making enough profit from the estimates. Bet they could have made more if they had gone bigger with the og scale as they could charge more and people would have paid for big minis. Dimension Games and Cmon proved people love big models
They couldn't really go OG scale with the new horde mechanics. The game would be MASSIVE if they did that. Like literally untable-able.
could you share your thoughts - which edition is better for casual player?
Didn't they change that and make the miniatures the same size as the previous games? I thought that was in one of the updates.
@@ScytheNoire they made the aliens a bit bigger but not to the Old Nemesis style, but they reverted the mini size for the Player characters so they could bring back compatibility (kind of)
OG Nemesis didn't include 50+ minis though. It's more of a swarm this time around, so smaller sizes makes sense for them to all fit.
I hate these kind of discussions. Yes all the points you made may be true… but that’s business. That’s how the world works. Why is this suddenly a problem when it comes to board games
Once your pot committed - it’s all-in after that. AR is great at adding fluff but if you stick with gameplay items - it’s a solid deal. Go price OG Nemisis on say MM and you’ll be amazed at the deal you can get now on KS albeit in a year. For 5-600 you can get all gameplay for three games on stretch pay - likely where I’m leaning on this one. Cats,art books, sleeves, alt sculps - pass on all that stuff. If they describe an add-on as does not change gameplay - purely cosmetic - it’s an easy pass.
That's a great point. AR above many of their peers enjoy adding nice to have but completely unnecessary things for people who want them. But gameplay all in remains typically around the same I imagine.
I'll always take the safe back over a good deal. As someone who's only been in the board gaming space for about 10 months now, the only games I've backed are from developers who've delivered previously (the games are Elder Scrolls: BOTSE, Dragon Eclipse, STALKER, and Andromeda's Edge). I'm just not here to gamble with my money in hopes that I'll get the product just because it's a good deal. I'd rather pay a little more than I'd want to a company that I know is going to deliver my product.
What we the end consumer never see if the very large trash can in the AR office full of failed concepts and ideas that went no-where, so I disagree that the amount of effort put into it should not be reflected in the costs. They should be calculated into the profit margin to fund next product development giving the creatives as much space and opportunity to fail in order to deliver amazing products.
If you don't....
I actually backed out of this campaign on Friday. The release of darker and more grotesque minis makes it less family friendly for me. I realize that I could easily just not play with any of the stretch goals or expansions, but that goes against the completionist in me… 🤣
It also comes down to the fact that I backed way too much this year, and if I get this, it’s going to be a few years before I even get to table it. I’m ok to wait on the horror genre with my kids for a while longer. Looks like a good game, but saving my wallet on this one.
Stretch goals at this level of crowdfunding are a nonsense, and I'd challenge those complaining about the number of stretch goals to change their thinking and base their buying decisions on the overall package - the split between core content and stretch goals is a an irrelevant marketing tool.
Quite the part out loud.
UGH! Thank you sir for letting me know, fixed!
Personal question: Do you received the last two emails from mythic games? at what are they playing, kidding? is kind a promotion of a new game?? opinion?
Tbh I auto delete those without reading lol. Will fish then out of the trash and give it a look :)
I think AR is definitely a trustworthy company, but I really don't like how I never know what the actual proce of the game is until the end of the campaign. Paid stretchgoals are kind of annoying. I'd rather they put the stuff they plan on charging for upfront, and save the stretchgoals for the smaller, free stuff.
It's a particularly annoying habit of AR to have the all-in available on day one that isnt even an all-in.
Oh well!
An interesting analysis would be comparison of crowdfunded vs non crowdfunded games to see what you get and prices they sell for. Also comparative profits for the companies involved. I feel original idea was sound, support startups to get off the ground and have influence over final product. But now its used by established companies to minimise risk and maximise profit. Just basic capitalism but I'd ask whether the real losers as a result are the consumers who are being milked. Much like emergence of micro transactions in computer games...
So confused on people being upset at the value offered here. The core pledge of retaliation I think is one of the best pledges in terms of content and components we have seen this year. But appreciate ARs post and thought your coverage was excellent……though now all I can see on that alien is tighty whities
It's so hard to resist buying it
The thumbnail. It's unnecessary. I feel this creates negative association with the game for no good reason. And no the ? mark does not help. I watched the hole video despite the 'click grab' thumbnail. It doesn't feel right. Apart from this l watch the channel regularly and with pleasure. Just a thought sorry.
Me finishing z cide 2nd ed pledge manager
My wife "why are'nt you getting everything"
Me "come sit n lets do it together"
Wife "oh yeah get that, yeah we should get that too, yes and that for sure"
Me "this is the final total"
Wife "ohhhhhhhhh"
Me " don't think we need the cars right"
Wife "are we done c mon?"
Me "yep"
You rock. Was afraid we hit a time machine and you were gonna trash awakend with your full averice😂
Still love nemisis and DMD and Z Cide. Havent played dawn fall since i first got it
Too true about these PM's man.
And lol yeah no return to that way :) I think what they did was awesome :D
this ist my first all in for a game. im so exited, but the fun part my wife wil kill me.
How “all in” are you.
The trilogy and all add ons?
@@odiedodieuk no just orderet the new contend. "all in" all in wil be my death before i wil press the order buttom 🤣
I sent the e mail again. Hope it finds you well, dear sir.
What is Age of Rome. Is it any good? It doesn’t seem like you usual type of game.
Great video and so on the money.
Thank you sir I appreciate it! :)
This community used to be very understanding and intelligent. Sadly, as the hobby expands, we are exhausting the pool of the understanding and intelligent people and now we see the influx of those who think everything is a cash grab, and that the publishers should not be making any profit. We get some good games but I'm wondering when this price will no longer be worth paying.
@19:42 WHAT?!?!?!? "you can live without board games" Who Are You and how did yo get on this channel????? ;-)
Hah!
people should get paid for their time/talent and make $ for sure, BUT that can easily turn towards greed and now you've limited accessibility to your products to ONLY the rich (e.g. a very niche clientele). turn it to sports ex. the $ barrier to entry level hockey kept it a niche sport for a long time.
I disagree with you that the amount of effort to develop a game should not go into its cost, and I will give you what I regard is the primary example. some games require a great deal more play testing to get properly balanced. play testing is a cost of developing the game, and having to do all that extra testing is something that really should be properly reimbursed.-Toby
Perhaps should, but don't. I've spoken with devs about this because you are right, not all games cost the same to develop. A tight eurogame with a single board, low rule count (but nuanced of course) and a handful of art assets costs way less than some gigantic dungeon crawl with hundreds of art pieces to create, tons of different minis to sculpt, lots of missions to balance and classes, etc.
Yet you can't charge multiple times the price of the dungeon crawl with all of that but fewer missions. Every dev I've spoken to on this has said the same thing. It simply costs more to create your game (not necessarily manufacture), but you can't charge extra for that really. You could, but you most likely won't sell as well.
There maybe a language barrier with some of it as well
Perhaps. They speak pretty good English :)
They absolutely do but some words just don't translate well.
One of the biggest problems with kick starter is not the company's but the backers. People don't realise its an investment to start the creation of a game. It's not a preorder system. To many people who moan about game content and not getting anything they have paid for. I would love to see you do a video explaining this
It’s not an investment, it’s an interest free loan at best. I think that backers treating crowdfunding as a preorder system stems directly from the same behavior by companies. AR and CMON don’t need crowdfunding to make these games. They both have very solid retail presence, and the whole existence of unlocks rather than stretch goals means they always intended that stuff to be part of the game anyway. For many of these campaigns, they really are just pre-orders.
Thumbnail is clockbaity. You might've good points and discussions to say but I CANNOT condone shit practices like this.
Uh what? Putting a question that is literally the entire video subject is clickbaity? In what universe?
Every game on KS is a cash grab, that's what a business is, that is all they said and its obvious. If you want awesome games by an established high performing publisher, you should be prepared to pay, overpromising has bankrupted a tonne of companies in the last few years, they cant afford to be too generous and are not obliged to in any way.
This game looks f- zing boring ! Nothing new to see here! Chronicles of drungor , sword and sorcery , galaxy defenders, black stone fortress, death may die . All way better games ..
Going after Awaken Realms after you let Mythic slide for months/years is laughable.
Thinking this is "going after" a company is laughable. Did you even watch the video or just look at the thumbnail and assume? I compliment and say I think AR doing this is awesome throughout the video man.
I think ppl still dont get it. If you dont want to pay then dont pay. Ppl need to stop comaplaining.
Man, takes like yours are so darn reductive. Use some critical thought, people are allowed to voice their displeasure online. Maybe go find a hugbox that will reaffirm your opinions?
This is the worst take, entirely unhelpful and frankly dumb. People can be critical you know. Of everything. The result doesn’t have to be that they don’t buy it. There is a scale. You can buy it and still want it to be better here and there. I can love an Audi and still complain that it doesn’t have a rear view camera for example.
Yea, guess people should stop complaining about Ticketmaster as well following that logic. Don't complain ever.
People can wait for retail and pay more if they want too. It’s all distributed by Asmodee. Companies should try to be successful.
I'm one of the guys in the comments of the campaign 'accusing' them of making cash-grabs of certain items. Someone asked me to define what a cash-grab is (for me I guess). This is what I replied:
@***** Well for one it's a too-high (in ones opinion) price for a popular item. Another thing is what they're doing with the acrylics for example. They obviously saw how popular the acrylics pack was, so they know people want them. In stead of adding the SG acylics to the original pack (like they said they would I believe, but don't quote me on that), they created another add-on for it, kinda 'forcing' people that bought the original pack to also now buy the second one. Not 'force' as in they make you buy it of course, but they already know you want acrylics, and kinda prey on that. That, to me, is how they create a cash-grab. They sniffed blood and turned that into a way to make more money. Yes, they are a company, but when you're raking in so much money, they could've giving back a tiny bit of it by adding the SG acrylics to the original acrylic pack. From the start I assumed more contect was coming to the acylic pack, because it didn't have much. It was expensive as it was (and quite incomplete). The other cash-grab for me was the 2 character add-on. That should've been free. For me personally: I really don't need another 50 (!) aliens in the SG's. About 40 would've been quite enough, and they could've had room to give us the 2 extra characters. It's all about optics in my opinion. That's what most people that are critical actually talk about.
So in the end cash grabs are about a combination of 2 things: price (too high or extra) and optics (the way it's presented).
Whoa wait...they made acrylics for the stretch goals a SEPARATE add on? F#$king kidding? That's absolute horseshit
Edit - I actually cancelled. It's only $8, but the principle of it really irks me. Stretch goals are part of the package. Add ons are separate, so an acrylic pack for those makes sense.
Yeah it wasn’t obvious, I am telling you by the time the game fulfills, there would be people who didn’t read and didn’t realise they have ended up with an incomplete acrylic pack