Saw the same/similar title of this video many years ago, still not much have changed. Not many people will adopt this, because it requires to much from end user to get into it, understand tech behind it, like it also(not many do). So yeah.... As a audio engineer you might be fascinated with differences in experience of set audio, but for majority of people they don't perceive same excitement like you do. Good video as usual
Thanks for watching! I agree that the industry needs to make it much more automated than it is currently. The trick is knowing what type of system the listener is using (without needing to ask the listener, because they might not know).
plenty of people would adopt this if some company would effing streamline the process. Set up a speaker room at best buy to get precision hrtf recordings for individuals, and couple that file to an account linked to a headphone profile linked to an apple/google account (everyone has this for mobile). We should have home theater headphones that have low latency transmission of wireless atmos like surround sound for people who don't have the space/ability to set up speakers for tv watching. If all a person had to do was pay 30-50 bucks to get measured, get some decent headphones, and now they had crazy good simulation of surround sound that they could use on a pc, a phone, a tv with streamlined software that recognized things, it would be adopted widely. But NO ONE HAS DONE THE WORK TO STREAMLINE THIS ACROSS PLATFORMS !!!!!!!!!! I'm hoping that open 3d audio partnership from companies like samsung/google aomedia.org/iamf/ www.sammobile.com/tag/iamf/ This CAN be made much easier for the end user by baking in the tech to platforms we already have and making more tvs and other devices support it.
Your POV is totally valid and I understand... But when you think about the fact that the world is adopting Augmented Reality/Virtual Reality at a quick rate though... That is a whole new world of listening experiences and the demand for a listening format that gives sonic depth and a sense of space to an AR/VR environment will only increase and understandably so. Surround sound and spatial audio might creep up on us(or even take over) before we realize it.
Immersive audio is definitely the future for video games and movies. And object based audio is a game changer for mixing that I can't wait until is more accessible for prosumers/amateurs. It's all really exciting stuff for music/audio enthusiasts. BUT... I don't expect immersive audio to have much impact elsewhere. Most people don't even listen in proper stereo (when not using headphones, that is). A typical home will have a smart speaker for music listening (maybe a few in different rooms, but not paired for any stereo experience), or perhaps a bluetooth speaker with hardly any separation between the drivers, or else are still watching TV using the TV's speakers (not even a simple 2.0/2.1 soundbar), not to mention older folks still using a small boombox on a counter.
Personally, i have yet to hear an immersive audio mix of music that I preferred to the stereo mix of the same music. Immersive audio is cool in theory, but i think there is a lot of industry knowledge around mixing for stereo systems that will make it difficult for immersive audio to become a new norm.
Listened on Sennheiser HD 660S headphones. The sound of the shakers moved from one side to the next and even from behind, but only from center to the back of my headspace. No sound seemed to come from the front. Moreover, all the movement of sound was within my headspace. Nothing sounded like it was coming from the outside world.
The generic HRTF might not be very effective with your head and ear shape… like I said though, there is research to find ways to create custom HRTFs more easily!
Yes. Headphones have always been superior because of their accessibility. If your goal is to get immersive audio to the consumer, headphones are the tool.
1:12 I use HD600 and I didn't hear anything coming from behind... Being in a studio, I heard the same thing as with the monitors but wider, you know... because headphones separation, you don't hear on the left ear what's coming from the right speaker and vice versa! 7:55 front is same as back and up is the same as down for me... in terms of sound positioning. Maybe it's me who is defective, although I think that after more than 25 years in the field, I should at least be able to hear the direction from which the sound is coming. Maybe in context with other sounds the difference appears... Listening only to that shaker, that's what I hear. I press play to see further! Yeah... so in the end the system is not even close...
He makes it sound so straightforward .... my god, none of this is simple, straightforward or even will even remotely give consistent results. I wish it were ... in this case the future isn't looking bright at all ... and immersive audio production is my passion.
Hello !!! I do have a 7.2 home audio system and a 75" 4K TV where I watch movies, concerts and music videos. My vision about the future of 3D audio, in this case for home audio systems, is a hybrid solution where the audio system consist of two basic components: 1) The 7.2 audio system already in place and 2) some sort of wireless diadem that you place in your head, like you do with headphones, but instead of covering your ears, the diadem would have audio speakers designed to produce sound behind your ears, touching or in contact with the bones that we have behind our ears. So, if you have to pause the movie or whatever you are watching to answer a phone call, you would not have to remove it from your head like you would with headphones.
This is great for movies but I can only see it being used in music in a few situations like delay panning and fx but because we listen to music on so many different players like headphones car stereo or Bluetooth speakers, it might be a waste of time.
I agree with your excellent video on this topic. I purchased the Smyth Realizer A16 around 2020 and it was I believe the most advanced immersive stand alone player at the time. May still be today. Unfortunately it was so feature rich that setup required a great deal of work on behalf of the listener. It also supported making custom HRTF files for your personal playback. The market should take off when a simpler hardware solution becomes available and music is specifically mixed for immersive and not just pushed through an algorithm like the majority of popular past album releases. This only tarnishes the technology and confuses the consumer into thinking the it’s not very good. More videos on this subject would be greatly appreciated.
I've always loved surround sound, but knew they had to come up with a way to make it accessible to a large amount of people. Now that immersive can be experienced through headphones, thankfully, I can now agree with you...Immersive Audio is not going away!
The sad thing with binaural audio is that it doesn't work. And not only for me. I've let several friends try it, and they all experienced the same lack of effect. I experience the left/right panning OK, but little to none of the front/back or elevation movement. When you used the dearVR PRO to demonstrate the elevation, I experienced something new. A strong filtering effect. As if it was controlling a HPF (but still no elevation). Of cause, these issues are nowhere to be seen with a real multispeaker system. I have tried several headphones. I used a pair of Airpods Gen 3 (which I wouldn't classify as "cheap" earbuds) to watch this video. There's still lots of work to be done.
Still some work to be done. But, like I said, it works pretty well for me. Once we can create custom HRTFs (or various generic HRTFs that are selectable), you will probably hear the effect much better.
I'd like to add another point not mentioned here. New immersive formats let us mix music in "space" as opposed to between n number of discreet speakers. Like dolby atmos doesn't care how many speakers you have, it's not mixing engineers job now to worry about which particular speakers sound should be coming out/what configuration of speakers the end user has. Same with binaural HP mixes. So for a mixing engineer it's already much more straight forward, the friction is with the user. Like there's an atmos option on iphones, and i saw my non techy friend enable it when listening through phone speakers... i asked him if he knew what that is, and he just said unsurely 'it just makes it sound better?' When atmos was just coming out I knew few friends who'd just mix in atmos even when requirements were only 2.0 or 5.1, 7.1.4 and then just fold down to those while telling client to wait extra few days for those mixes lol
8 місяців тому+1
After I tried a VR headset with crappy headphones, I concluded that VR sound is underappreciated. All the specs is about the picture quality etc., but the audio, even on crappy headphones, is actually what makes me go back. I think that is the future, but there is a long way to go... not to make it good, but to make it simple enough for the general public.
Where immersive audio shines at the moment is sometimes in games. I play only with headphones because of that. I had a 5.1 setup for some years, nothing too fancy, but not cheep either. Not any more, only headphones for me. The reason is, that I went on a search for good speakers with a friend, who wanted to change his setup. We listened to an enormous amount of setups over the span of 3 years. From about 1000 Euro per speaker up to 35000 Euros (not that those were ever a consideration, only for comparison). He even bought several sets, to test them at home. All of them he sent back. None of them was any better than the Heco he already had. In the end, a new stereo amplifier was all it took to elevate the listening experience to a completely new level. The very expensive 7.2 amplifier, he had, was simply crap. That taught me, that I could never spend the money or had the room for a decent setup. So out it went.
@@AudioUniversity Yeah, and ideally you should sound-treat the room. Not always possible. He's a bit of an audiophile, was quite surprised by your video on bit depth and resolution. 🙂 We had a Hifiman 1000 with dedicated amplifier as a reference point. Not easy to reach. 🙂
These videos are so very informative , thank you ! I have a question . I am building an immersive 5.1.4 in my barn/shop . The front , center and rear speakers are already flown as I need the floor space to work . They work great for 5.1 and 4.0 material as they are laser aimed at a central listening position .The height speakers can therefore only be about three feet higher than the main speakers . I have the ability to delay the height signals with my 24/96 digital crossovers . They have this function in feet , meters or milliseconds . Question is : can I expect to get the immersive height effect by adding delay to offset the fact the speakers are minimally higher than the main speakers . Thank You !
Thanks Kyle! This technology is cool. Just finished a true 5.1 DTS mix. The impact is far greater than the simulation but mixing and play back requires many more pieces in a 5.1 system. I listened to Dolby Digital 5.1 and compared it to DTS (digital theater systems). 5.1. The DTS was way more immersive and cohesive sounding. There seemed to be fewer gaps in the sound field. This is due to DTS’s ability to transfer more data to the rear channels.
Very interesting but my problem is that I've gotten so bored with headphones - I used to use them a lot but I just got tired of having these things on my head or in my ears and also my ears get tired if I use them for to long. I own a sennheiser but to be honest I haven't used them for years.
Using binaural simulation and room simulation can help with ear fatigue. Also, a comfortable (and lightweight) pair of headphones helps. It’s all personal preference, but that’s one thing that really stands out about the HD 490 Pro headphones - the comfort.
On headphones I feel like the binaural rendering is just stereo with comb filtering. It doesn’t sound good. And it definitely doesn’t sound three dimensional.
I have never understood why modern DAWs have not integrated Interaural Timing Differences into the standard panning controls. Nothing could be easier than combining the traditional volume-based panning with a basic delay of a few milliseconds to shift around the directional perception, so why is nobody doing that..? It would be a killer spec to trump the competition, and it would cost close to nothing.
You are right, it did sound weird on speakers! 😂 I was somewhat surprised that the surround did a pretty good job of emulating what you were doing though, I figured it would have no idea being that is a totally different format made for a different listening environment.
For me personally, the forward and backward axis just don't work. I would love to have a scan that calculates a local transfer function for a custom binaural experience. I wonder what is the bottleneck that prevents Apple from implementing this on iPhone. They have the camera/lidar hardware to create custom models, the compute to calculate the transfer function in real-time. Next to that they have full control over the recording and distribution formats with Logic/iTunes. Am I just an exception and do standard models work well for most people?
They work for me, but you’re not alone. I’ve heard this is a problem for others too. I believe we will see better ways to create custom HRTF models in the near future!
Saying that the "skull" affects the HRTF is a poor choice of words at 5:54. Sure I see where you're coming from, but "head" would have been a perfectly reasonable (and more correct, think nose, etc.) word to use here. Saying "skull" makes it sound like bone conduction plays an effect on the HRTF, which is not true. Also, your shoulders are somewhat important for height localization (large reflective surfaces that produce significantly delayed copies when a sound arrives from above). So, really, your "physiology" as a whole would be the best word to use, if you want to sum everything up.
When attempting to get the free dearVR MICRO plugin: "**If you can't see the form, try opening the page in a private window or different browser." On both Chrome and Edge, no adblocks or anything. Is it because i only have necessary cookies when the site asks or...?
I love the idea of immersive sound and I think it's fantastic that so much effort is being put into creating it. You rightly pointed out that there is a disconnect between sound technology innovation and its implementation, for example with surround-sound. One thing I hear all the time with movie sound is dialogue is so quiet as to be inaudible when contrasted with sound effects and so what happens is viewers have to sit with the remote in hand to turn up the sound to hear dialogue and then turn it back down again because relatively the sound effects are too loud. Actually given the tech, the state of the art etc it's very obvious the studios are operating a take it or leave it approach in which they expect their customers to adopt expensive tech in order to appreciate their sound. Like Dolby Atmos, do they seriously think people are going to start putting speakers in their ceilings..? I think the studios are out of touch with normal people, but I also think they don't care.
Thanks for this! I recently bought the Sennheiser HD 490's. And also downloaded the Virtual Mix room. (1 of 3 that I now use). However, I missed this plugin. I'm new to immersive/dolby surround, etc. However, there is the "ambisonics" mixing freebie over at Dear as well. Talk about confusing! I'd love to see a video on the different formats and whether or not they are "swappable". Not even sure what I'm asking here. Hope this makes sense. :)
Yes, the tech is quite interesting and fun in the right situation. But are you feeling the need to be right in the middle of your chosen band? Do u really want to hear the singer walking around you as you listen? I feel it would b quite fatigue after awhile.
I hope you’re right. I can only base my feelings on my experiences. The handful of songs I’ve listened to did exactly that. By the end I was “ stop, you’re hurting my head”. So yes, in the right situation, it would b cool.
Oh HELL YEAH. I was wondering when someone would come up with a plugin that would simulate this. As much as I would love to own one of those neumann thingies myself, there is no way I could afford to throw $10k at one. And like you said, at the end of the day it's only one head shape. Are there any supplemental object-based mixing tools that you would recommend for speeding up the process of automating this? This may sound silly, but I'm thinking of motion capture technology that takes a video recording and translates it directly into the plugin's automation. If it could be as simple as giving each musician a ping pong ball on a stick and having them move around the room to where they want their channel to be heard, it would streamline the process a lot while also giving the less technically savvy artists more input over how they want their immersive audio ideas to translate to the listener. I can already imagine a few fun foley ideas just tossing ping pong balls around and having the listener feel like they're being dive-bombed by a swarm of tiny, angry saxophones.
Until there's a fully open source object based encode / decode standard that actually gets adopted, it's just not going to take off. Having to give Dolby money every time you want to make or listen to music has been a barrier ever since basic Surround Sound became a thing
It was made with sounds from Epidemic Sound. So I’m able to post those sounds in my video, but I’m not able to share the raw files with others. You can find sound FX libraries online that are royalty free for practice, though.
Got to say.. PS5 , in VR2 , with tempest engine is pretty incredible... Best yet in my experience.... (to Add.. I own all Dear Reality Plugs.... well except Exoverb....)
Still sounding around in my head, didn't hear it getting out of that 30-50 CM sphere with headphones Edit: With eyes closed maybe out of my head with a max distance around 40CM
First, your videos are incredible! Second, I saw on your website that you went to Webster University?! I’m in Webster and work at a church in Kirkwood. Are you still based in STL area?
I've used headphones for many years and prefer them for all high fidelity listening. I live in what I consider a relatively noisy environment. I'd love to have total external/noise cancelation, while maintaining high fidelity. What would you suggest in headphones? Love your Channel, and your ability to make technical information easy to understand. Immersive audio is awesome, and I look forward to more of it!👍
Active noise cancelling can be very very good. I’ve had good experience with the Sony headphones in this video: ua-cam.com/video/6GC4P5r7Zaw/v-deo.htmlsi=rl_ZAerXR7MT01m4
I make trap so none of this will apply to me 😂 but I would like to figure out a way to move my 808s behind the mix and vocals to the front while maintaining LUFS that are competitive with the trap/edm scene. the whole thing is overwhelming to me but in such an addictive way. so much to learn
The reason more people don't buy surround systems is that 95% of the audio in typical commercial movies is not recorded in surround anyway, so the improvement isn't as great as they expect - most of it (such as voices and most sounds from nearby sound sources) is recorded in just mono. There is no real point buying an expensive system to get an improvement on just a few occasions thrughout whole movies. Also, most people don't know the importance of acoustic treatment - which ruins the experience. This is bad enough in stereo with just 2 speakers - but the more speakers there are, the more of the sound will hit nearby reflective surfaces as well and turns the whole experience into "chaotic immersive noise" rather than the detailed "virtual soundfield" that's wanted. Otherwise that binarual panning was really interesting - that really have the potential to improve the quality of mixed music a lot compared to just the typical level adjustment for left and right. Another thing that will make listening thru speakers in stereo, a little more "headphone like" (it can of couse never be the same as headphones, but the difference will not be as huge) is to move the 2 stereo speaker further apart (so you almost sit in between the speakers, rather than having them in front of you). This will make for a much better experience with these immersive recordings thru a simple stereo speaker setup.
Even if most sounds are recorded in mono, the final mix for most commercial films is some type of surround format. Assuming you have the correct setup, that type of mix can be very immersive. It’s similar to music. Most instruments are recorded in mono. But the final mix is stereo.
@@AudioUniversity Maybe in a few cases with just the right type of sound. But record the sounds in mono, then pan out, will be very unnatural sounding. There is no way you can reproduce for example the environment in a realistic way doing so. And even if the environment is very close to anechoic (such as being out on a large grass or snow covered field not too far from the sound source), it will still only work for point sources. For larger sources or multiple sources at once, it will simply not work to get a realistic soundfield, that way. I do recordings a lot my self as a hobby (for example the sound on all the videos on my channel) with just a simple stereo setup (2 omnidirectional microhpones with 33-37 cm in between) and thats still better than pretty much anything commercial I have heard for most sounds (even being in numerous cinemas and heard different surround systems), when listening thru headphones or with my mentioned "far apart" stereo speaker setup in a good (close to anechoic) room. There are some really good "binarual recordings" here on UA-cam though - seach at for example "virtual haircut" (and listen with headphones). Then tell me when you have heard something similar in a commercial movie.
"The reason more people don't buy surround systems is that 95% of the audio in typical commercial movies is not recorded in surround anyway" Wha? Recorded is not a film re-mixed.... You honestly think everything should be recorded with Ambisonics? Placement , in a 360 degree audio field is the reason this exists ... Have you played any VR game that allows you to pinpoint where the sound comes from? Well guess what... Not surround recorded audio.. Fact is surround exists.. Even placing a MONO recording, Placing it in a space. Honestly.. What you posted is a ridiculous statement.... Forget Binaural.... You should BUY a surround system... This is what this what this video is about.,...
@@Rhythmattica Yes, you might point out exactly where the panned sound comes from, but recording in mono, you will only get the sound at 1 point in space. There is no way you can separate the different sound sources afterward. You can make it sound like the whole recording comes from left, right, forward, behind, up down or what ever - but it will still not sound very realistic. It will be more like a simulation of having a mono speaker in an anechic chamber. You can have it in different places, which you can pinpoint with high accurancy, but it will still not be a realistic soundfield, with sounds coming from multiple directions at once.
Of course you can try to make each sound source it's own sound track and do a surround mix - but try doing that for a more complex sound field and one that also has moving sound sources. Take something like a city street with vehicles driving around and people walking past talking etc. Or film a passing train and record the sound that way. It will sound like crap (just like a mono recording panned from left to right) - regardless of being surround. Even just people having dinner in a normal kitchen will be next to impossible to repreduce - like each knife and fork, plate, and glass, the water tap, chairs (maybe even each leg of a chair if reproducing the sound of it being dragged on the floor) a sizzling frying pan on the stove, kitchen fan etc. must be it's own soundtrack and be panned to the right place on the recording and still the kitchen would have the acoustic of an anechoic chamber (which is not realistic). It's particularly the environmental sounds and large sound sources like vehicles, that's crap in movies in general (sometimes they are recorded in stereo, but just appears like faked shit with no connection to what's seen in the picture, with wrong angles, for example cars seen in picture, that's not heard etc.). The voices are also usually crap. It's all recorded in mono, close to the mic and sounds like it's coming from the front - regardless if the person stands to the left and right, behind the camera or is several meters away from the percieved camera position, in a high reverb environement. And yes, I know about VR. In games, you will of course also need to fake all sounds, as there is no real environment to record in. Given what they got to work with, some games have quite ok sound, that's often better than in movies.
I’m unconvinced. While immersive certainly will not go away - its been with us for decades already - it will remain in commercial environments such as Cinema, Theme Parks or Theatres. The only way it exists outside of these spaces is in the homes of either single men who are interested in the tech, or in the homes of very wealthy men who have a spare room and the play money to set it up properly. For the typical family, living in a typical house, it is far less hassle and more enjoyable to appreciate immersive when you experience it as part of a larger occasion. There is a place for it in gaming, and for those who use headphones, but the typical way we use our homes is to consume music while doing other things, when we have friends over, we wouldn’t realistically hand out headphones and sit quietly in our own immersive experience, instead, we will end up reverting to what we find most convenient. That will be a regular stereo system or a soundbar for the vast majority of regular consumers. The problem for immersive in the domestic market is not technological, but that it doesn’t solve a problem anyone has. The ongoing pursuit to convince us that there is some greater advantage to immersive in the home is odd. I’m rather cynical as to the reasons, but honestly, it won’t matter how hard it is pushed, it is an aspirational tech too far in a world already well catered for with what we have. The problem for tech companies is that we don’t lust for innovation that is barely different to what we have enjoyed for decades at this point. Homes today, need to be simple and efficient, and culturally we are happier to have experiences away from the home, indeed we are hungrier for reasons to escape them. The idea of having one more reason to stay indoors is not a selling point in 2024.
Listening to music in stereo falls short for me because I know there's so much missing that could be there given the right technology. Binaural is currently great for sound demos (the haircut recording, etc) and I'm just waiting for the tech to advance to the point of providing a totally immersive experience with pop/rock music that sounds natural.
The Neumann KU100 has been available for more than 5 decades. Put in front of a band, you're in the room with them. What technology are you waiting for?
this is not pop/rock, i... think, nor im sure its recorded as binaural, but i do know its made *for* binaural (so, headphones) u should give Like What (its an ep and the first song of the ep) by Tennyson a try!! its pretty jazzy too :P 7:00 am is my fav off the ep
"Immersive audio is not going away"? It never got here in the first place 😂😂😂 Same story with the failed 3D film tech. Keeps coming back every couple of decades to fail again and again and again. Come back to this video in a couple of years and tell us how it went 👍 You're talking about what the future might be, but binaural has been around from 1881, where's the content? As for future games, they had 3D audio in the 90s, where's all that today?
Movie, gaming, yes. Music? No. Yes, it could b useful in some kind of music (Dr devious). But most should b left to stereo at most. This is how I feel about it all.
I understand this perspective, and used to feel the same way. But when I started learning about immersive reverb and proximity effects, I started to feel more open to the value of immersive music mixing.
I get you, Kyle. As I said. It could b. This would really depend on the engineers skill set. I guess because it’s so new. Most engineers are not there yet. But time will change this and I’m hopeful that this will only make music better.
This is very interesting but in my opinion this is overkill, an unnecessary level of detail. At the end of the day the best way is to create a simple and unique good sounding technology and let people adapt to it, not the other way around.
I'm glad that we're pushing against stereo boomers and pushing forth w/ immersive formats. Immersive audio has never been more accessible than ever. Boomers are always comparing it to quadrophonic but had no clue how quadrophic worked or how it differs from modern surround and object based formats.
Saw the same/similar title of this video many years ago, still not much have changed. Not many people will adopt this, because it requires to much from end user to get into it, understand tech behind it, like it also(not many do). So yeah.... As a audio engineer you might be fascinated with differences in experience of set audio, but for majority of people they don't perceive same excitement like you do. Good video as usual
Thanks for watching! I agree that the industry needs to make it much more automated than it is currently. The trick is knowing what type of system the listener is using (without needing to ask the listener, because they might not know).
plenty of people would adopt this if some company would effing streamline the process. Set up a speaker room at best buy to get precision hrtf recordings for individuals, and couple that file to an account linked to a headphone profile linked to an apple/google account (everyone has this for mobile). We should have home theater headphones that have low latency transmission of wireless atmos like surround sound for people who don't have the space/ability to set up speakers for tv watching.
If all a person had to do was pay 30-50 bucks to get measured, get some decent headphones, and now they had crazy good simulation of surround sound that they could use on a pc, a phone, a tv with streamlined software that recognized things, it would be adopted widely.
But NO ONE HAS DONE THE WORK TO STREAMLINE THIS ACROSS PLATFORMS !!!!!!!!!!
I'm hoping that open 3d audio partnership from companies like samsung/google
aomedia.org/iamf/
www.sammobile.com/tag/iamf/
This CAN be made much easier for the end user by baking in the tech to platforms we already have and making more tvs and other devices support it.
👏🏻
Your POV is totally valid and I understand... But when you think about the fact that the world is adopting Augmented Reality/Virtual Reality at a quick rate though...
That is a whole new world of listening experiences and the demand for a listening format that gives sonic depth and a sense of space to an AR/VR environment will only increase and understandably so.
Surround sound and spatial audio might creep up on us(or even take over) before we realize it.
You got it in Apple air pod max and music mastered in Spatial Audio. It’s happening. And until they put it in normal air pods, it won’t be mainstream.
Immersive audio is definitely the future for video games and movies. And object based audio is a game changer for mixing that I can't wait until is more accessible for prosumers/amateurs. It's all really exciting stuff for music/audio enthusiasts.
BUT... I don't expect immersive audio to have much impact elsewhere.
Most people don't even listen in proper stereo (when not using headphones, that is). A typical home will have a smart speaker for music listening (maybe a few in different rooms, but not paired for any stereo experience), or perhaps a bluetooth speaker with hardly any separation between the drivers, or else are still watching TV using the TV's speakers (not even a simple 2.0/2.1 soundbar), not to mention older folks still using a small boombox on a counter.
I see your point about speaker systems. That’s why I’m excited about the potential of immersive in headphones!
Personally, i have yet to hear an immersive audio mix of music that I preferred to the stereo mix of the same music. Immersive audio is cool in theory, but i think there is a lot of industry knowledge around mixing for stereo systems that will make it difficult for immersive audio to become a new norm.
Listened on Sennheiser HD 660S headphones. The sound of the shakers moved from one side to the next and even from behind, but only from center to the back of my headspace. No sound seemed to come from the front. Moreover, all the movement of sound was within my headspace. Nothing sounded like it was coming from the outside world.
The generic HRTF might not be very effective with your head and ear shape… like I said though, there is research to find ways to create custom HRTFs more easily!
660s have a fairly tight sound stage, but great imaging.
Yes. Headphones have always been superior because of their accessibility. If your goal is to get immersive audio to the consumer, headphones are the tool.
Agreed!
1:12 I use HD600 and I didn't hear anything coming from behind... Being in a studio, I heard the same thing as with the monitors but wider, you know... because headphones separation, you don't hear on the left ear what's coming from the right speaker and vice versa!
7:55 front is same as back and up is the same as down for me... in terms of sound positioning. Maybe it's me who is defective, although I think that after more than 25 years in the field, I should at least be able to hear the direction from which the sound is coming. Maybe in context with other sounds the difference appears... Listening only to that shaker, that's what I hear. I press play to see further!
Yeah... so in the end the system is not even close...
He makes it sound so straightforward .... my god, none of this is simple, straightforward or even will even remotely give consistent results. I wish it were ... in this case the future isn't looking bright at all ... and immersive audio production is my passion.
Hello !!! I do have a 7.2 home audio system and a 75" 4K TV where I watch movies, concerts and music videos. My vision about the future of 3D audio, in this case for home audio systems, is a hybrid solution where the audio system consist of two basic components: 1) The 7.2 audio system already in place and 2) some sort of wireless diadem that you place in your head, like you do with headphones, but instead of covering your ears, the diadem would have audio speakers designed to produce sound behind your ears, touching or in contact with the bones that we have behind our ears. So, if you have to pause the movie or whatever you are watching to answer a phone call, you would not have to remove it from your head like you would with headphones.
The only think that actually works to create the surround speaker solution seems to be Smyth Realizer A16 And Impulcifer. Have you looked into these?
Yup, this is the way I’m going. The hell with room configuration.
I haven’t looked into this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
I’m always mind boggled in these videos at the sheer power of our brains and how much they do without us even knowing that it’s happening.
Agreed! I’m fascinated by this too!
I'm still not sure how my brain works. 😅😅😅
But I know that a good hifi set up is unbeatable.
I'm old school, ❤
This is great for movies but I can only see it being used in music in a few situations like delay panning and fx but because we listen to music on so many different players like headphones car stereo or Bluetooth speakers, it might be a waste of time.
I agree with your excellent video on this topic. I purchased the Smyth Realizer A16 around 2020 and it was I believe the most advanced immersive stand alone player at the time. May still be today. Unfortunately it was so feature rich that setup required a great deal of work on behalf of the listener. It also supported making custom HRTF files for your personal playback. The market should take off when a simpler hardware solution becomes available and music is specifically mixed for immersive and not just pushed through an algorithm like the majority of popular past album releases. This only tarnishes the technology and confuses the consumer into thinking the it’s not very good. More videos on this subject would be greatly appreciated.
I agree. We need a better, simpler delivery system AND we need the “real mix” and the “immersive mix” to be equally valued.
I've always loved surround sound, but knew they had to come up with a way to make it accessible to a large amount of people. Now that immersive can be experienced through headphones, thankfully, I can now agree with you...Immersive Audio is not going away!
The sad thing with binaural audio is that it doesn't work. And not only for me. I've let several friends try it, and they all experienced the same lack of effect.
I experience the left/right panning OK, but little to none of the front/back or elevation movement. When you used the dearVR PRO to demonstrate the elevation, I experienced something new. A strong filtering effect. As if it was controlling a HPF (but still no elevation).
Of cause, these issues are nowhere to be seen with a real multispeaker system. I have tried several headphones. I used a pair of Airpods Gen 3 (which I wouldn't classify as "cheap" earbuds) to watch this video.
There's still lots of work to be done.
Still some work to be done. But, like I said, it works pretty well for me. Once we can create custom HRTFs (or various generic HRTFs that are selectable), you will probably hear the effect much better.
@@AudioUniversity I guess that me and my friends got weird heads.
I think the future is more like atmos / atmos for headphones, while not quite hrtf, does cover multi-playback situations
Atoms for headphones simulates HRTF.
I'd like to add another point not mentioned here.
New immersive formats let us mix music in "space" as opposed to between n number of discreet speakers.
Like dolby atmos doesn't care how many speakers you have, it's not mixing engineers job now to worry about which particular speakers sound should be coming out/what configuration of speakers the end user has. Same with binaural HP mixes.
So for a mixing engineer it's already much more straight forward, the friction is with the user.
Like there's an atmos option on iphones, and i saw my non techy friend enable it when listening through phone speakers... i asked him if he knew what that is, and he just said unsurely 'it just makes it sound better?'
When atmos was just coming out I knew few friends who'd just mix in atmos even when requirements were only 2.0 or 5.1, 7.1.4 and then just fold down to those while telling client to wait extra few days for those mixes lol
After I tried a VR headset with crappy headphones, I concluded that VR sound is underappreciated. All the specs is about the picture quality etc., but the audio, even on crappy headphones, is actually what makes me go back. I think that is the future, but there is a long way to go... not to make it good, but to make it simple enough for the general public.
Agreed!
Where immersive audio shines at the moment is sometimes in games. I play only with headphones because of that. I had a 5.1 setup for some years, nothing too fancy, but not cheep either. Not any more, only headphones for me.
The reason is, that I went on a search for good speakers with a friend, who wanted to change his setup. We listened to an enormous amount of setups over the span of 3 years. From about 1000 Euro per speaker up to 35000 Euros (not that those were ever a consideration, only for comparison).
He even bought several sets, to test them at home. All of them he sent back. None of them was any better than the Heco he already had.
In the end, a new stereo amplifier was all it took to elevate the listening experience to a completely new level. The very expensive 7.2 amplifier, he had, was simply crap. That taught me, that I could never spend the money or had the room for a decent setup. So out it went.
You can get great sound from a surround speaker setup. But it is much more expensive and time consuming, that’s for sure!
@@AudioUniversity Yeah, and ideally you should sound-treat the room. Not always possible. He's a bit of an audiophile, was quite surprised by your video on bit depth and resolution. 🙂
We had a Hifiman 1000 with dedicated amplifier as a reference point. Not easy to reach. 🙂
These videos are so very informative , thank you ! I have a question . I am building an immersive 5.1.4 in my barn/shop . The front , center and rear speakers are already flown as I need the floor space to work . They work great for 5.1 and 4.0 material as they are laser aimed at a central listening position .The height speakers can therefore only be about three feet higher than the main speakers . I have the ability to delay the height signals with my 24/96 digital crossovers . They have this function in feet , meters or milliseconds . Question is : can I expect to get the immersive height effect by adding delay to offset the fact the speakers are minimally higher than the main speakers . Thank You !
You should utilize a measurement mic to ensure spacing (or delays) are set so that all speakers are evenly timed to the listening position.
Thanks Kyle! This technology is cool. Just finished a true 5.1 DTS mix. The impact is far greater than the simulation but mixing and play back requires many more pieces in a 5.1 system. I listened to Dolby Digital 5.1 and compared it to DTS (digital theater systems). 5.1. The DTS was way more immersive and cohesive sounding. There seemed to be fewer gaps in the sound field. This is due to DTS’s ability to transfer more data to the rear channels.
Very interesting but my problem is that I've gotten so bored with headphones - I used to use them a lot but I just got tired of having these things on my head or in my ears and also my ears get tired if I use them for to long. I own a sennheiser but to be honest I haven't used them for years.
Using binaural simulation and room simulation can help with ear fatigue. Also, a comfortable (and lightweight) pair of headphones helps. It’s all personal preference, but that’s one thing that really stands out about the HD 490 Pro headphones - the comfort.
You are so professional! I love your videos! Sometimes i watch them even the subject is not important to me!
Glad you like them!
On headphones I feel like the binaural rendering is just stereo with comb filtering. It doesn’t sound good. And it definitely doesn’t sound three dimensional.
I have never understood why modern DAWs have not integrated Interaural Timing Differences into the standard panning controls. Nothing could be easier than combining the traditional volume-based panning with a basic delay of a few milliseconds to shift around the directional perception, so why is nobody doing that..? It would be a killer spec to trump the competition, and it would cost close to nothing.
You are right, it did sound weird on speakers! 😂 I was somewhat surprised that the surround did a pretty good job of emulating what you were doing though, I figured it would have no idea being that is a totally different format made for a different listening environment.
For me personally, the forward and backward axis just don't work. I would love to have a scan that calculates a local transfer function for a custom binaural experience. I wonder what is the bottleneck that prevents Apple from implementing this on iPhone. They have the camera/lidar hardware to create custom models, the compute to calculate the transfer function in real-time. Next to that they have full control over the recording and distribution formats with Logic/iTunes. Am I just an exception and do standard models work well for most people?
They work for me, but you’re not alone. I’ve heard this is a problem for others too. I believe we will see better ways to create custom HRTF models in the near future!
Saying that the "skull" affects the HRTF is a poor choice of words at 5:54. Sure I see where you're coming from, but "head" would have been a perfectly reasonable (and more correct, think nose, etc.) word to use here. Saying "skull" makes it sound like bone conduction plays an effect on the HRTF, which is not true. Also, your shoulders are somewhat important for height localization (large reflective surfaces that produce significantly delayed copies when a sound arrives from above). So, really, your "physiology" as a whole would be the best word to use, if you want to sum everything up.
When attempting to get the free dearVR MICRO plugin:
"**If you can't see the form, try opening the page in a private window or different browser."
On both Chrome and Edge, no adblocks or anything. Is it because i only have necessary cookies when the site asks or...?
I’m able to access the page on Chrome. I’m not sure what the issue is.
I love the idea of immersive sound and I think it's fantastic that so much effort is being put into creating it. You rightly pointed out that there is a disconnect between sound technology innovation and its implementation, for example with surround-sound. One thing I hear all the time with movie sound is dialogue is so quiet as to be inaudible when contrasted with sound effects and so what happens is viewers have to sit with the remote in hand to turn up the sound to hear dialogue and then turn it back down again because relatively the sound effects are too loud. Actually given the tech, the state of the art etc it's very obvious the studios are operating a take it or leave it approach in which they expect their customers to adopt expensive tech in order to appreciate their sound. Like Dolby Atmos, do they seriously think people are going to start putting speakers in their ceilings..? I think the studios are out of touch with normal people, but I also think they don't care.
Thanks for this! I recently bought the Sennheiser HD 490's. And also downloaded the Virtual Mix room. (1 of 3 that I now use). However, I missed this plugin. I'm new to immersive/dolby surround, etc. However, there is the "ambisonics" mixing freebie over at Dear as well. Talk about confusing! I'd love to see a video on the different formats and whether or not they are "swappable". Not even sure what I'm asking here. Hope this makes sense. :)
Ambisonics is very powerful, but it takes some research to understand how to use it. I’d love to make a video on this!
Yes, the tech is quite interesting and fun in the right situation. But are you feeling the need to be right in the middle of your chosen band? Do u really want to hear the singer walking around you as you listen? I feel it would b quite fatigue after awhile.
You wouldn’t necessarily need to pan the instruments all around you. Binaural opens the door to more immersive reverb and proximity cues.
I hope you’re right. I can only base my feelings on my experiences. The handful of songs I’ve listened to did exactly that. By the end I was “ stop, you’re hurting my head”. So yes, in the right situation, it would b cool.
Oh HELL YEAH. I was wondering when someone would come up with a plugin that would simulate this. As much as I would love to own one of those neumann thingies myself, there is no way I could afford to throw $10k at one. And like you said, at the end of the day it's only one head shape.
Are there any supplemental object-based mixing tools that you would recommend for speeding up the process of automating this? This may sound silly, but I'm thinking of motion capture technology that takes a video recording and translates it directly into the plugin's automation. If it could be as simple as giving each musician a ping pong ball on a stick and having them move around the room to where they want their channel to be heard, it would streamline the process a lot while also giving the less technically savvy artists more input over how they want their immersive audio ideas to translate to the listener. I can already imagine a few fun foley ideas just tossing ping pong balls around and having the listener feel like they're being dive-bombed by a swarm of tiny, angry saxophones.
Bro it's all ways amazing listening to ur work u drop 👏
Appreciate that!
i hear stereo. just like I have for 40 years
Until there's a fully open source object based encode / decode standard that actually gets adopted, it's just not going to take off. Having to give Dolby money every time you want to make or listen to music has been a barrier ever since basic Surround Sound became a thing
Is there a way we can get that first immersive audio clip to download for ourselves please?
It was made with sounds from Epidemic Sound. So I’m able to post those sounds in my video, but I’m not able to share the raw files with others. You can find sound FX libraries online that are royalty free for practice, though.
Got to say.. PS5 , in VR2 , with tempest engine is pretty incredible... Best yet in my experience....
(to Add.. I own all Dear Reality Plugs.... well except Exoverb....)
don't want to be a doomer but the sea demo didn't sound all that impressive to me, not shure if it supposed to work on any headphone(aeon 2 noire)
It doesn’t work for everyone… Could be that your head and ear shape vary too much from the generic HRTF model.
Still sounding around in my head, didn't hear it getting out of that 30-50 CM sphere with headphones
Edit: With eyes closed maybe out of my head with a max distance around 40CM
Thanks for sharing. Download the plugin and experiment with the controls to see if you can achieve the distant sound you’re going for.
First, your videos are incredible! Second, I saw on your website that you went to Webster University?! I’m in Webster and work at a church in Kirkwood. Are you still based in STL area?
Hey Jeremy! Webster is a great school! Email me here: kyle@audiouniversityonline.com
Interesting stuff can't wait to experiment .
😮 ..that shaker went up and down in my head!
impressive!
edit: used AKG K518Dj
I've used headphones for many years and prefer them for all high fidelity listening. I live in what I consider a relatively noisy environment. I'd love to have total external/noise cancelation, while maintaining high fidelity. What would you suggest in headphones? Love your Channel, and your ability to make technical information easy to understand. Immersive audio is awesome, and I look forward to more of it!👍
Active noise cancelling can be very very good. I’ve had good experience with the Sony headphones in this video: ua-cam.com/video/6GC4P5r7Zaw/v-deo.htmlsi=rl_ZAerXR7MT01m4
I make trap so none of this will apply to me 😂 but I would like to figure out a way to move my 808s behind the mix and vocals to the front while maintaining LUFS that are competitive with the trap/edm scene. the whole thing is overwhelming to me but in such an addictive way. so much to learn
The reason more people don't buy surround systems is that 95% of the audio in typical commercial movies is not recorded in surround anyway, so the improvement isn't as great as they expect - most of it (such as voices and most sounds from nearby sound sources) is recorded in just mono. There is no real point buying an expensive system to get an improvement on just a few occasions thrughout whole movies. Also, most people don't know the importance of acoustic treatment - which ruins the experience. This is bad enough in stereo with just 2 speakers - but the more speakers there are, the more of the sound will hit nearby reflective surfaces as well and turns the whole experience into "chaotic immersive noise" rather than the detailed "virtual soundfield" that's wanted.
Otherwise that binarual panning was really interesting - that really have the potential to improve the quality of mixed music a lot compared to just the typical level adjustment for left and right.
Another thing that will make listening thru speakers in stereo, a little more "headphone like" (it can of couse never be the same as headphones, but the difference will not be as huge) is to move the 2 stereo speaker further apart (so you almost sit in between the speakers, rather than having them in front of you). This will make for a much better experience with these immersive recordings thru a simple stereo speaker setup.
Even if most sounds are recorded in mono, the final mix for most commercial films is some type of surround format. Assuming you have the correct setup, that type of mix can be very immersive.
It’s similar to music. Most instruments are recorded in mono. But the final mix is stereo.
@@AudioUniversity Maybe in a few cases with just the right type of sound. But record the sounds in mono, then pan out, will be very unnatural sounding. There is no way you can reproduce for example the environment in a realistic way doing so. And even if the environment is very close to anechoic (such as being out on a large grass or snow covered field not too far from the sound source), it will still only work for point sources. For larger sources or multiple sources at once, it will simply not work to get a realistic soundfield, that way.
I do recordings a lot my self as a hobby (for example the sound on all the videos on my channel) with just a simple stereo setup (2 omnidirectional microhpones with 33-37 cm in between) and thats still better than pretty much anything commercial I have heard for most sounds (even being in numerous cinemas and heard different surround systems), when listening thru headphones or with my mentioned "far apart" stereo speaker setup in a good (close to anechoic) room.
There are some really good "binarual recordings" here on UA-cam though - seach at for example "virtual haircut" (and listen with headphones). Then tell me when you have heard something similar in a commercial movie.
"The reason more people don't buy surround systems is that 95% of the audio in typical commercial movies is not recorded in surround anyway"
Wha? Recorded is not a film re-mixed.... You honestly think everything should be recorded with Ambisonics?
Placement , in a 360 degree audio field is the reason this exists ...
Have you played any VR game that allows you to pinpoint where the sound comes from? Well guess what... Not surround recorded audio..
Fact is surround exists.. Even placing a MONO recording, Placing it in a space.
Honestly.. What you posted is a ridiculous statement.... Forget Binaural.... You should BUY a surround system... This is what this what this video is about.,...
@@Rhythmattica Yes, you might point out exactly where the panned sound comes from, but recording in mono, you will only get the sound at 1 point in space.
There is no way you can separate the different sound sources afterward.
You can make it sound like the whole recording comes from left, right, forward, behind, up down or what ever - but it will still not sound very realistic. It will be more like a simulation of having a mono speaker in an anechic chamber.
You can have it in different places, which you can pinpoint with high accurancy, but it will still not be a realistic soundfield, with sounds coming from multiple directions at once.
Of course you can try to make each sound source it's own sound track and do a surround mix - but try doing that for a more complex sound field and one that also has moving sound sources. Take something like a city street with vehicles driving around and people walking past talking etc. Or film a passing train and record the sound that way. It will sound like crap (just like a mono recording panned from left to right) - regardless of being surround.
Even just people having dinner in a normal kitchen will be next to impossible to repreduce
- like each knife and fork, plate, and glass, the water tap, chairs (maybe even each leg of a chair if reproducing the sound of it being dragged on the floor) a sizzling frying pan on the stove, kitchen fan etc. must be it's own soundtrack and be panned to the right place on the recording and still the kitchen would have the acoustic of an anechoic chamber (which is not realistic).
It's particularly the environmental sounds and large sound sources like vehicles, that's crap in movies in general (sometimes they are recorded in stereo, but just appears like faked shit with no connection to what's seen in the picture, with wrong angles, for example cars seen in picture, that's not heard etc.).
The voices are also usually crap. It's all recorded in mono, close to the mic and sounds like it's coming from the front
- regardless if the person stands to the left and right, behind the camera or is several meters away from the percieved camera position, in a high reverb environement.
And yes, I know about VR.
In games, you will of course also need to fake all sounds, as there is no real environment to record in. Given what they got to work with, some games have quite ok sound, that's often better than in movies.
@@Speeder84XL Sorry... But it seems you still cant comprehend what I posted .
Thanks
Cancer isn’t going away either but I’m not trying to get it.
I’m unconvinced. While immersive certainly will not go away - its been with us for decades already - it will remain in commercial environments such as Cinema, Theme Parks or Theatres. The only way it exists outside of these spaces is in the homes of either single men who are interested in the tech, or in the homes of very wealthy men who have a spare room and the play money to set it up properly.
For the typical family, living in a typical house, it is far less hassle and more enjoyable to appreciate immersive when you experience it as part of a larger occasion.
There is a place for it in gaming, and for those who use headphones, but the typical way we use our homes is to consume music while doing other things, when we have friends over, we wouldn’t realistically hand out headphones and sit quietly in our own immersive experience, instead, we will end up reverting to what we find most convenient. That will be a regular stereo system or a soundbar for the vast majority of regular consumers.
The problem for immersive in the domestic market is not technological, but that it doesn’t solve a problem anyone has.
The ongoing pursuit to convince us that there is some greater advantage to immersive in the home is odd. I’m rather cynical as to the reasons, but honestly, it won’t matter how hard it is pushed, it is an aspirational tech too far in a world already well catered for with what we have.
The problem for tech companies is that we don’t lust for innovation that is barely different to what we have enjoyed for decades at this point. Homes today, need to be simple and efficient, and culturally we are happier to have experiences away from the home, indeed we are hungrier for reasons to escape them. The idea of having one more reason to stay indoors is not a selling point in 2024.
Immersive audio is the future because virtual reality is the future. 3D spatial audio is mandatory for VR headsets. 🌈
So far VR has been a spectacular failure ... maybe in 20 years
great vid
Thanks for watching!
I little secret sauce of Serbans mixing 👀
hi
All good but Headphones aren't for me. Especially when It comes to bass.
I love headphones. But VERY true.
Headphones just can't make you FEEL bass the same way good speakers can.
It looks like it went away
Comment for the algorithm!
I wouldn't notice because I listen to 50 percent of my youtube videos on my 3 dollar phone speaker 😂
Haha. Me too. But it might be worth using headphones now!
Listening to music in stereo falls short for me because I know there's so much missing that could be there given the right technology. Binaural is currently great for sound demos (the haircut recording, etc) and I'm just waiting for the tech to advance to the point of providing a totally immersive experience with pop/rock music that sounds natural.
The Neumann KU100 has been available for more than 5 decades. Put in front of a band, you're in the room with them. What technology are you waiting for?
this is not pop/rock, i... think, nor im sure its recorded as binaural, but i do know its made *for* binaural (so, headphones)
u should give Like What (its an ep and the first song of the ep) by Tennyson a try!! its pretty jazzy too :P
7:00 am is my fav off the ep
"Immersive audio is not going away"? It never got here in the first place 😂😂😂
Same story with the failed 3D film tech. Keeps coming back every couple of decades to fail again and again and again. Come back to this video in a couple of years and tell us how it went 👍
You're talking about what the future might be, but binaural has been around from 1881, where's the content?
As for future games, they had 3D audio in the 90s, where's all that today?
Movie, gaming, yes. Music? No. Yes, it could b useful in some kind of music (Dr devious). But most should b left to stereo at most. This is how I feel about it all.
I understand this perspective, and used to feel the same way. But when I started learning about immersive reverb and proximity effects, I started to feel more open to the value of immersive music mixing.
I get you, Kyle. As I said. It could b. This would really depend on the engineers skill set. I guess because it’s so new. Most engineers are not there yet. But time will change this and I’m hopeful that this will only make music better.
This is very interesting but in my opinion this is overkill, an unnecessary level of detail. At the end of the day the best way is to create a simple and unique good sounding technology and let people adapt to it, not the other way around.
I'm glad that we're pushing against stereo boomers and pushing forth w/ immersive formats. Immersive audio has never been more accessible than ever. Boomers are always comparing it to quadrophonic but had no clue how quadrophic worked or how it differs from modern surround and object based formats.
Might be a good idea to mention en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiophonics too as something "in between".
Cheers.
Thanks for watching!