This talk by Fr. Stephen DeYoung is from the Symbolic World Summit that took place in Florida on the weekend of February 29th, 2024. Given it was such a spectacular talk, we decided to make it public. I hope you enjoy it! All other talks and discussions from the event can be accessed through the Symbolic World website if you buy the Summit video package. Other speakers included myself, Jordan Peterson, Dr. Martin Shaw, Richard Rohlin, Neil DeGraide, Fr. Dcn. Nicholas Kotar, Vesper Stamper, and Fr. Silouan Justiniano: www.thesymbolicworld.com/summit-2024
@@Mr_M1dnight When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
A note of clarification, especially for the non-orthodox. Father Stephen is engaging in speculation, offering a perspective to consider. It is also a self admitted early speculation, as he is still working out his thinking on it. He is not presenting "The Orthodox View" in a dogmatic sense. He is pondering deep mysteries, which is worthwhile and greatly apppreciated, but deep mysteries they remain. Much love to the Symbolic World folks for sharing this lecture.
@forthegloryofthelord it's not thought police. If someone attends an Orthodox service, this is not likely the sort of thing you will hear in the Homily, and folks unfamiliar with Orthodoxy might be confused about what is speculation and what is clear doctrine.
@@forthegloryofthelordyour remark was intentionally hurtful and uncalled for. Matthias is right. This is NOT an Orthodox dogma or even remotely something you will hear in church, except for the "little onion tale". I like Fr. Stephen, but as the one who is tasked with tending the flock, he has to be extra careful. Sorry to say, but this talk reeked of Protestantism. And this is one big problem with the recent tide of new converts to Orthodoxy: they bring their Protestant demons with them.
It's not speculation. It is part of what the Saints / Church Fathers in Orthodoxy explain in their writings in the Filokalia which is a series of books that explain the teachings of the Bible and the way we should all transform towards salvation and be born again spiritually in this life in order to live with and in God. :)
@andreeampatrasc can you cite where in the Philokalia this is addressed? Not trying to be argumentative, but I would expect Father Stephen to cite a Saint or church father if there was one who clearly held this position.
The more I listen to Fr. Stephen and Fr. Andrew both in the Lord of spirits podcast and elsewhere, the more the Orthodox understanding is illuminated to me, the more I just marvel at how this true meaning of Christianity has been hidden to us for so long. I had these questions, these doubts, and when no one was able to answer I gave up on God and gave up on Christ. The view that I am seeing from the Orthodox is so radically different and yet familiar, it removes a great deal of the stumbling blocks to my faith, I just can't believe this is really Christianity and I never knew it existed.
Jordan Peterson is the guy who, a couple of sentences after warning about the dangers of post-modern transhumanism, talks excitedly about bringing people from the dead with AI. 🤷♂
I can make no sense of Jordan. He’s a moralist and little else… I don’t believe he has any felt sense of Christ. “Here are the rules to life (literally)” …the hubris.
I have spent many years trying to find answers and rest in the many things of this world, in Peterson and Jung, Nietzsche, etc. But my soul had no rest until i found Christ. If you’re curious about Christ, i encourage you, seek Him with all of your heart. Your life depends on it.
Victor Frankl says something similar about rescuing good into the eternal past >> Those things which seem to take meaning away from human life include not only suffering but dying as well. I never tire of saying that the only really transitory aspects of life are the potentialities; but as soon as they are actualized, they are rendered realities at that very moment; they are saved and delivered into the past, wherein they are rescued and preserved from transitoriness. For, in the past, nothing is irretrievably lost but everything irrevocably stored
A thought on this: if the goal of the Faith is to grow ever closer to God, and what preserves in eternity is our identity as found in our relationships, then our Eternity is not a "groundhog day" where we repeat our lives, as another commenter put it, but our lives are joined to the lives of the everyone else as we find our common root in God. All the good of all the lives, the chaff burned away, lived out together.
I don't like the idea that the love shared between one another is all there is. I am not who I am, and neither are you. We are becoming who we are and must continue to become every moment of our lives. I don't want that to stop after death. I want to keep going, forever.
What a wonderful talk. I wish I could have been there for the whole event. I just gave a talk on this very thing this morning, including the onion tale! I wish I had heard it ahead of time because he did such a great job of explaining so much of the nuance here.
So rich, his voice and his words. Can listen many times and still not taste every note. Thank you for sharing, and all the work (daily rituals😉) that went into making the summit happen! 🤍🤍🤍
The importance of this topic cannot be overstated because it speaks to who our Savior is. Historically, the shallow teaching on Heaven and Hell, in my view, has harmed the Church and harmed the psyches of so many. As always, thank you Father DeYoung for your wisdom and courage to use the sound mind that God has given you. Many blessings to you!! May the Holy Spirit continue to guide you. Understanding the mysteries is a fearsome thing. 🙏🏻☦️🙏🏻☦️
The problem with this perspective is that (despite all that is true about how we 'create' a heaven or hell for ourselves in this life), what is the role of the cross in this? Where is redemption? We certainly can't save ourselves! The life of Jesus and the cross was more than an example for us to follow. It accomplished a redemption for us that we receive by faith.
Aurelius and Sophia sat quietly, the candle between them flickering in the cool night air. After a while, Aurelius ventured, “Sophia, you speak of resurrection and of life infused with divine purpose. But tell me-what do you believe happens after we die? Is there a journey, a transformation, or simply a return to the Source?” Sophia took a deep breath, as if drawing wisdom from the silence around them. “I believe that death is not the end, but a passage-a threshold we cross into deeper union with God. And yet, I think that what we find beyond death depends on the lives we live here and now. In Jesus, we see that God treasures each soul and seeks to draw us closer. When we die, I believe we are invited further into that love, to be transformed by it.” Aurelius nodded thoughtfully. “So you think our journey continues after death, not just as a merging into the One, but as a kind of ongoing communion with the divine?” “Yes,” Sophia replied. “I see it as a deepening of relationship, a life that grows ever fuller as we draw nearer to the heart of God. For those open to divine love, it is a movement toward fullness and healing. But for those who resist, who cling to shadows, that love might feel like a purifying fire, stripping away all that keeps them from seeing God. It is as if death is a doorway, and we pass through it to meet the truth of ourselves and of God.” Aurelius considered this. “In Neoplatonic thought, we speak of the soul’s ascent, its release from the material world to return to the One. But you’re suggesting that after death, we do not lose our identities, our uniqueness?” Sophia’s eyes were gentle. “I believe that the One holds and cherishes every soul’s uniqueness. The resurrection is a promise that the things that make us who we are-our loves, our sorrows, our longings-are precious to God. After death, we do not vanish into the Source like drops in the ocean; rather, we are drawn closer, becoming more fully ourselves as we grow in divine love.” Aurelius’s face softened as he listened. “So, you imagine that even after death, we continue to grow and deepen? That eternity is not static but alive with movement and love?” “Yes,” said Sophia. “I believe that eternity is a living communion, a place where love and joy deepen forever. Jesus’ resurrection, to me, is a promise that there is always more-more of God to know, more love to experience. I think of eternity not as a place or even a time, but as an ever-unfolding journey into the infinite life of God.” Aurelius looked down, letting the words sink in. “I have always thought of the One as an ultimate unity, a return to simplicity and purity. But you speak of eternity as a kind of unfolding, an infinite exploration of the divine. In your vision, heaven is not a mere return but a further journey.” “Yes,” Sophia said softly. “We enter into the mystery of God and are invited to explore it forever. And perhaps even the smallest acts of love in this life prepare us for that journey. When we die, I believe we are welcomed into a life that no eye has seen, nor ear heard-where we are fully known and fully loved, and where every soul is cherished as a unique part of the divine tapestry.” Aurelius leaned back, his eyes wide. “If what you say is true, then there is no end to the adventure of knowing God, no end to love or life. Death is not the end but a new beginning, a doorway into a journey we cannot yet imagine.” Sophia nodded, her eyes shining with quiet joy. “Exactly, Aurelius. If Jesus is the Logos, then his resurrection shows us that life itself is eternal, always moving further into the heart of God. Even after death, I believe we will find ourselves invited deeper into the mystery, into a love that has no end.” The two sat in silence, gazing up at the stars. In that moment, the heavens seemed to pulse with a hidden life, a promise that the universe itself was filled with the same infinite love they spoke of-a love that would carry them, even beyond the boundary of death, into life unending.
I agree that the One holds and cherishes the soul’s uniqueness after death. However, if eternity itself is full of movement and life, then what is the point of the resurrection and proposed new creation? I have always known intuitively that eternity is stillness. This is why we meditate to return to the Source. Movement/Change/Transformation is dependent on time and comes about through duality and external “things”, which are created and not eternal. I believe the Hebrew word for eternal can also be understood as everlasting or never-changing. If there is no change, then all is still. As for what that means for how eternal life/eternal torment is experienced, I have no idea. However, there seems to be a need for a resurrection both of life and of condemnation. This resurrection of condemnation might be a salvific process, or a merciful destruction. I don’t know.
Peterson's talk of reanimating Neitzche from the dead via LLMs is disturbing. Immediately brings to mind a clip of his speaking on another podcast about this venture, where he talked about training an LLM on the bible and how you could 'capture the spirit of the text' this way. Perhaps it didn't occur to him that what he was describing sounds a lot like deus ex machina (creating god out of the machine). At any rate, trying to pull wisdom out of a black box prone to hallucination, with no way to determine the manner in which it's decisions are made, seems a fools errand. Let the dead rest. This criticism aside, Father Stephen's talk was very interesting.
I’m glad someone else felt this. I’m afraid Peterson doesn’t know what he’s doing by messing with AI. With these things, even the programmers/creators don’t really know what is going on behind the scenes. It’s much like divination. These machines are self-learning and can easily embody unclean spirits.
Exactly. "We're going to create an image of Nietzsche and give it the ability to speak." Peterson understands more about what he is doing and where his teachings come from than he lets on, but that has always been the case since he first came into the limelight.
Peterson has done a huge amount to bring Christianity (and amazing Christian thinkers such as Fr. Stephen, Jonathan) to former atheists like me. I do think people in the comments could be a little more gracious towards him. I found him at his best here, yes he talks too much-but he would confess to that and often does. Nonetheless I enjoyed their interaction at the end, I thought it added value.
I remember this, it was the Symbolic World Summit; and it was a mountaintop for me as well. I had a vision as I watched Dr. Peterson and saw what was written on the back of his jacket that he is a modern day St. Christopher, carrying the Christ child and with Him, the world, on his shoulders across the river. And now I know he does believe in the resurrection.
finally, someone who understands that when you leave an article out in greek it means you add an indefinite article. one of the greatest crimes of the middle ages was that little translation error being conveniently left out.
Malachi 4:5-6 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."
What I picture is simulation theory with God becoming at the end and Him holding all past reality (including our physical bodies) in his divine hard drive but now with Him and his divine grace being with us at all the moments of our lives he thus makes everything all right as our savior.
To some degree we already experience the extraction of the bad in death. When we see news of gang members passing away, people mock those that make reference to their "goodness" & what cynical people they are to believe that even those most entrenched in violence don't have a shred of love in their bones.
You can’t real understand what father talk only if you’re orthodox. You can understand like Jordan, mentally but not in the deep sense. You have to live and experience that in the Church. What is the Church? The Body of Christ! And the Holy Spirit guide you…
Okay. You have to drink the kool-aid and be in the cult, and then you will get it. Once you are in the group and getting out is too hard, you will accent to everything that is false because you have no other option. This is utter heresy. Christ himself said that hell is a place of eternal sufferings and John the apostle reaffirms it in apocalypse because the devil and all the evil people are thrown into the lake of fire.
18:24 "we're talking about your identity...your relationships..." This seems to run counter to Matt 22:30 when a man specifically asks if relationships endure at the resurrection, Jesus replied, "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven (who don't produce young)" Anyone have thoughts on this?
Jesus could be talking about whether people would have married relations as that between husband and wife, which is why he likens it to angels who don't reproduce.
I don't think it runs counter at all. In that verse, a sadducee who doesn't believe in resurrection is trying to "gotcha" Christ by bringing up a woman who had been married to 8 brothers in her life, and asks who would she be married to? Well Fr. Stephens thinking here lines up well with what Jesus says in that, she won't be 'given in marriage' to the first or to the last or by whatever arbitrary metric you might come up with, but instead with this idea of eternal return, that her resurrected life will be a preservation of all her relationships in the new heavens and earth. That's how I see it anyway 😅
The concept of heaven as a specific realm for the soul has deep roots in Christian thought, shaped by both Scripture and longstanding theological traditions. While some argue that heaven is purely a metaphor or a state of mind, the idea of heaven as a true, designated place for the soul aligns with biblical teachings and provides a concrete hope of union with God after death. J 14:2-3, where Jesus says, “In my Father’s house are many rooms... I am going there to prepare a place for you,” suggest that heaven is not merely a state but a real "house" in God's presence. While physical bodies remain on Earth, awaiting resurrection, the soul is understood to immediately enter God’s presence, as indicated in Philippians 1:23, where Paul expresses his desire “to depart and be with Christ.” For Paul, to “depart” meant a distinct movement from this life to another state - a real communion with God in a place beyond this earthly realm.
yes. eternal life includes the present life, but if it's just "be good, and life is good", it's nothing. It only matters if the physical matter of Jesus' flesh and bones were resurrected. If a man's eternal soul is just memories and influence, and he doesn't consciously experience an afterlife, Jesus is bunk, and materialist nihilism is true.
Interesting perspective on the afterlife. I wonder how that'd play out for the unborn, infants and those who don't develop mentally. Not sure I think it's right, but wouldn't be upset if it were true!
What about the 'good thief' who asks Jesus to remember him when he comes into His kingdom? Miserable life saved by his act of compassion at the end of his life?
There is so much good, there was some things that made me nervous. If we are trivializing the promises of God, that we shall live with Him forever and ever, though this is a non-temporal phenomenon then I’m ok.
Many good points in this talk. But sometimes we make the mistake of over psychologizing the revelation of Jesus. It was God’s intention for us to understand these truths through the scope of the Church he founded; not psychology.
In a quiet, ancient courtyard under a starry sky, two seekers met: Aurelius, a Neoplatonist philosopher with a mind set on tracing everything back to the ultimate One, and Sophia, a panentheist mystic whose devotion was rooted in the living presence of God within all creation. They had come to discuss a question that had lingered in both their minds: the mystery of Jesus as the Logos. Seated on opposite sides of a flickering candle, Aurelius began, “Sophia, you speak of Jesus as if he were in all things, as if the very earth and sky bear his presence. But the Logos, as I see it, is the perfect reflection of the One, an eternal principle descending from the Source. It’s a metaphysical bridge, not a person. I struggle to see how such an essence could become embodied as one particular man.” Sophia’s eyes softened. “I understand, Aurelius. But I believe the Logos is not merely a distant bridge to the divine. The Logos is God’s love flowing out, filling all things with presence. When I look at Jesus, I see God’s heart made tangible, a God who chooses to be among us, to walk with us-even to suffer with us. It is as if the One, which you see as transcendent, has made itself deeply personal.” Aurelius paused, reflecting. “So, to you, Jesus is more than a cosmic principle? You believe he entered into creation in such a way that the Logos itself experienced limitation, suffering?” Sophia nodded. “Yes, because I see God as love itself, reaching out to creation. Love cannot stay distant. I believe the incarnation of Jesus is the ultimate act of that love-God’s willingness to enter fully into the human experience. The Logos becomes flesh, not to remain detached, but to reveal that the divine presence fills every aspect of life. That’s why I say God is both beyond and within all things.” Aurelius leaned forward, intrigued. “But if God is present in every part of creation, then why the need for an incarnation at all? If the Logos already flows through all that exists, why would it need to become a man?” Sophia smiled gently. “Because sometimes we cannot see what is already with us. Sometimes, in our blindness and brokenness, we need a guide, a living example of the divine life we are called to live. Jesus reveals what it means to live as a true expression of the Logos. He doesn’t just point us upward-he meets us here, in the depths, and shows us that the path to the divine can be lived in compassion, humility, and love.” Aurelius fell silent, pondering. “Perhaps,” he murmured, “perhaps there is something to this notion of the divine descending… even into suffering. I have always viewed the ascent to the One as an escape from the limitations of the material, a journey away from suffering. Yet you suggest that the divine willingly embraced these things?” Sophia’s eyes glistened. “Yes. I believe that in Jesus, the Logos did not seek to escape but to transform. His life, his self-emptying-kenosis, as some call it-shows us that God is not indifferent to our pain. Instead, God enters into it, making even the darkest moments sacred. Through him, we see that the divine is found not just in our upward reach, but in our downward humility, our surrender.” Aurelius pondered this. “So, you’re saying that Jesus as the Logos doesn’t merely invite us to transcend the world but to redeem it from within?” “Yes,” Sophia replied, her voice low but firm. “Jesus, as the Logos, embodies the truth that God’s presence fills the heights and depths. The One you seek upward is already woven through the fabric of existence. And in the incarnation, that presence took a form we could touch, see, and know. He is the bridge-but not just from earth to heaven. He’s the bridge from God’s transcendence to God’s immanence, in every heartbeat and every atom.” Aurelius looked up at the stars, as if seeing them anew. “I have spent my life seeking ascent, the return to the One. But you speak of a descent-of the divine seeking us, reaching for us, right here in the world of flesh and form. This… changes things.” Sophia placed her hand over her heart. “Yes, Aurelius. And perhaps it doesn’t have to be one or the other. Jesus shows us both paths-the ascent and the descent. As we reach up, we find God reaching back, deeper into us, further into the world.” They sat in silence, gazing up together at the stars, each one shimmering with a new, hidden light. For the first time, Aurelius felt that his search for the One was somehow also a journey home-to a God both beyond and within, to a Logos that had become flesh to illuminate all things.
Well Jordan, what kind of resurrection would an embodied resurrection-resurrection proper to its fullest sense-be if it didn’t resurrect the body? What kind of a redeemer would a redeemer be if he didn’t “put all things in subjection under Him, so that He may be all in all?”
I wanna just mention the desert fathers. Perhaps sacrifice and experiencing hell, that is your faults, voluntarily and as much as possible is what the proximal, or the profane, or matter, or earth, is made of when you’re in that rare space around you that is clear and peaceful. At that moment you look around as the spirit of the fathers inhabits you and you notice all the things around you are there because you sacrificed.
Fr. De Young's idea that identity is rooted in relationship feels deeply correct to me... But I'm curious to hear his thoughts on Jesus's answer to the Sadducees' question about the many-times-married widow. When Jesus speaks of human relationships after the resurrection, he seems to say that earthly bonds are no longer relevant.
I think I’ll just carry on getting my ideas about heaven and hell from Jesus rather than from a nihilistic philosopher whose own ideas drove him insane.
@@07bmarshallit is not because the one who had a perfecr life Christ had the perfect words. I dont believe your 'fallacy' that an evil man can see the true good.
The degree to which we to claim the chaff as life is the degree to which the flaming sword is hell. The degree to which we accept the gift of Joy as life is the degree to which the flaming sword does not touch us…………………”MY ONION”
Hell is so real, it's geometry is why we have the depressed monkey experiment. It's arrogant to think that those things our modern science still can't grasp, is not real despite all the ancients knowing better.
Hello Jonathan Pageau,I was curious if you saw the latest A24 film Heretic and will you be doing an analysis on the symbols used and how faith in God has been depicted?
47:49 The Latter-day Saint tradition has a temple liturgy that has some resonances with this. Particularly regarding salvation for the dead and the vital role of bodily, though vicarious, participation in entering into a covenant relationship with God. Fr. Stephen said "A person can't repent for themselves but the community can intercede for them"- Jordan responded that this is a concept reflected in the way we "carry forward the spirit of great individuals from the past". This idea is central to the LDS Church’s genealogical work and temple ordinances, where the living act on behalf of the deceased to help them progress spiritually.
Pretty interesting stuff to think about but also quite terrifying. To think of an eternal repetition for children born with horrible terminal diseases and unbelievably painful conditions. There are people who lose the ability to move and speak from a young age and spend their entire lives imprisoned in their bodies. It can be easy to talk about suffering as a cause of sin. But once you bring nature and things out of your control into it, it doesn’t fit into a neat box anymore.
I think in the case of what the speaker is talking of, it would be your actions that are repeated, not something that you have no control over. If my understanding is correct he’s saying whatever you choose in this life will be made eternal in the next.
"St Gregory of Nyssa - On the Soul and Resurrection" - he explores this concern. I won't paraphrase for you, I suggest getting a copy. Worth the read on this matter.
I think this vision of the eschaton is missing communion with all the saints you never met, but there’s something about this that sounds true However I do feel like this turns time into death itself, ie God entered into time and destroyed it, because eternity is timeless. So we’re being restored back to a timeless state. However this assumes eternity is all stasis and no flux rather than something that transcends both. My worry is that this might be the point of Christ being the one who reigns in the age to come as per the nicene creed, the person of the trinity who did directly enter into time and shares our human nature which is temporal. So ironically I kind of feel like this is a slightly Plato brained view of the kingdom of God. Time is a creation and was assumed by Christ so surely will be redeemed in the eschaton as well. So alternatively, the tendency of time to tend towards entropy and dissipation (like the never ending bbq vision that turns boring) might have been taken from it (so our enjoyment of the bbq just goes from glory to glory essentially instead of starting at max glory and dissipating over time) Nevertheless, the “cyclical what if” version of heaven that father Stephen de young presents here may very well be a side of the ressurection of the body that is true. But as a view of the fullness of the kingdom it would almost turn each persons experience into a sort of cubicle of revisiting their life, kind of makes me just want to go on a bunch of holidays so I have more scenery in heaven… this feels unlikely.
I think it’s better to interpret it in a more flaccid sense. You would experience an eternal recapitulation of your mode of willing and a corresponding “epitomized” posture of heart, and not necessarily a repetition of specific events or “moments” as he alluded to.
Aurelius and Sophia continued their quiet meditation beneath the stars, and after some time, Aurelius spoke again. “This idea of descent-the divine Logos entering into the limits and sorrows of flesh-it’s moving,” he admitted. “But Sophia, the part I struggle with most is resurrection. Death and decay are the nature of all things. The cycle of form dissolving and returning to the One is fundamental. But resurrection-life returning from death-seems to defy the order of the cosmos. How can you see it as anything but myth?” Sophia looked up at the stars and then back at Aurelius, her gaze steady. “Because resurrection isn’t about defying reality; it’s about transforming it. If the Logos truly became human in Jesus, then he entered fully into mortality-even to the point of death. But resurrection is God’s way of saying that death is not the end, that love transcends even the dissolution of form. Resurrection is the pattern of life emerging from every end, showing us that life and love have the final word.” Aurelius’s eyes narrowed, his mind wrestling with the idea. “But if the One is beyond all form, beyond time and change, then how could resurrection-a return to the world of change and limitation-hold any true significance? Wouldn’t it be more natural for the Logos to dissolve back into the Source?” Sophia’s face softened with compassion. “That is the mystery and the beauty of it, Aurelius. Resurrection doesn’t negate the One; it completes it. In the resurrection, we see a God who not only enters the world but commits to it. Resurrection isn’t just about life after death; it’s the vindication of creation itself. It says that this world-its beauty, its sorrow, its life-is eternally meaningful to God.” “But surely,” Aurelius countered, “death is the purification, the final release of the soul from its imprisonment in flesh. The soul returns to the One, freed of its earthly bonds.” “Yes,” Sophia replied, “but resurrection shows us that God does not despise the flesh. The Logos entered creation not just to leave it behind but to lift it up, to redeem it. In Jesus, the resurrection is a promise that our lives, our bodies, even the material world, are infused with divine purpose. It’s not just about escaping the world but transforming it.” Aurelius paused, letting the words sink in. “So you believe that in Jesus’ resurrection, God reveals a different kind of immortality-one that embraces rather than escapes form?” “Yes,” said Sophia. “Resurrection is God’s affirmation that the material world is not a mistake to be transcended but a sacred reality to be redeemed. In the resurrection, Jesus becomes a bridge-not just between the One and our souls, but between eternity and this world. He shows us that death and decay are not the final truths, that life itself is woven through with divine purpose.” Aurelius sat quietly, his mind turning. “You know,” he said finally, “I have always thought of life as a journey back to the Source, to lose oneself in the perfect unity of the One. But you speak of a journey that leads not just upward, but forward-of a life that does not simply return to its origin, but carries something new.” Sophia smiled. “Exactly, Aurelius. Jesus’ resurrection is the ultimate expression of that forward journey. It shows us that we are meant not only to return to God but to grow into the fullness of divine love, even here and now. In him, creation and eternity, matter and spirit, are joined.” Aurelius looked up at the stars with a newfound reverence, a sense that they were not simply distant reflections of the One, but part of a cosmos imbued with sacred potential. “Perhaps, then,” he said slowly, “resurrection isn’t just about one man rising from the dead. It is the revelation of the One who does not abandon what is lesser but lifts it up, so that all things might be drawn back to the divine-changed, renewed, and made whole.” Sophia nodded, her eyes bright. “Yes, my friend. That is the promise of resurrection. It is not an escape from death but the transformation of it, a sign that the One we seek is also the Love that reaches out to us, bringing life where we see only endings.” In silence, they sat together beneath the stars, each of them sensing the vastness of the mystery, a mystery that had reached down into flesh and bone and, in the end, would lift up all things into the radiance of divine life.
Is no one else scandalized by Jordan making fashion statements out of the Great Schema and icons of the Theotokos? Or the fact that he shakes hands with Netanyahu?
This talk by Fr. Stephen DeYoung is from the Symbolic World Summit that took place in Florida on the weekend of February 29th, 2024. Given it was such a spectacular talk, we decided to make it public. I hope you enjoy it!
All other talks and discussions from the event can be accessed through the Symbolic World website if you buy the Summit video package. Other speakers included myself, Jordan Peterson, Dr. Martin Shaw, Richard Rohlin, Neil DeGraide, Fr. Dcn. Nicholas Kotar, Vesper Stamper, and Fr. Silouan Justiniano: www.thesymbolicworld.com/summit-2024
Thanks for making this public, Jonathan!
This talk made me tear-up a bit. Anxious to rewatch to remind myself why. 🥲
Thank you for making this public! 🙏
When will you address the widespread mental illness in your fan base, Jonathan Schizeau?
@@Mr_M1dnight When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
A note of clarification, especially for the non-orthodox. Father Stephen is engaging in speculation, offering a perspective to consider. It is also a self admitted early speculation, as he is still working out his thinking on it. He is not presenting "The Orthodox View" in a dogmatic sense. He is pondering deep mysteries, which is worthwhile and greatly apppreciated, but deep mysteries they remain.
Much love to the Symbolic World folks for sharing this lecture.
Good we have a thought policeman here 😂 so no stupid sheep's may go astray.
@forthegloryofthelord it's not thought police. If someone attends an Orthodox service, this is not likely the sort of thing you will hear in the Homily, and folks unfamiliar with Orthodoxy might be confused about what is speculation and what is clear doctrine.
@@forthegloryofthelordyour remark was intentionally hurtful and uncalled for. Matthias is right. This is NOT an Orthodox dogma or even remotely something you will hear in church, except for the "little onion tale". I like Fr. Stephen, but as the one who is tasked with tending the flock, he has to be extra careful. Sorry to say, but this talk reeked of Protestantism. And this is one big problem with the recent tide of new converts to Orthodoxy: they bring their Protestant demons with them.
It's not speculation. It is part of what the Saints / Church Fathers in Orthodoxy explain in their writings in the Filokalia which is a series of books that explain the teachings of the Bible and the way we should all transform towards salvation and be born again spiritually in this life in order to live with and in God. :)
@andreeampatrasc can you cite where in the Philokalia this is addressed? Not trying to be argumentative, but I would expect Father Stephen to cite a Saint or church father if there was one who clearly held this position.
I pulled my bootleg copy of this down after my conscience caught up with me. Symbolic World Summit was such a deeply meaningful experience.
boo
Hang onto the copy
Jesus forgives you. Just had an email from him 👍
You're in the clear bro
@ can you send him back a message and tell him I said thankyou
The more I listen to Fr. Stephen and Fr. Andrew both in the Lord of spirits podcast and elsewhere, the more the Orthodox understanding is illuminated to me, the more I just marvel at how this true meaning of Christianity has been hidden to us for so long. I had these questions, these doubts, and when no one was able to answer I gave up on God and gave up on Christ. The view that I am seeing from the Orthodox is so radically different and yet familiar, it removes a great deal of the stumbling blocks to my faith, I just can't believe this is really Christianity and I never knew it existed.
Glory to God for him illuminating your understanding.
☦️🙏
I've just started working through the Lord of Spirits podcasts from the beginning they are great
@@mysticape9386 yeah me too. I’m on episode 7
I don't like listening to Fr Andrew, I had to stop listening to the lord of spirits podcast because of him 🙄
OMG no way! I’ve been dying to hear this talk, but I just couldn’t afford normal tickets.
Thank you so much, Jonathan.
Thank you Father Stephen for helping me understand why I must not lose hope.
Jordan Peterson is the guy who, a couple of sentences after warning about the dangers of post-modern transhumanism, talks excitedly about bringing people from the dead with AI. 🤷♂
I can make no sense of Jordan. He’s a moralist and little else… I don’t believe he has any felt sense of Christ. “Here are the rules to life (literally)” …the hubris.
This talk was stunning. I was not at all prepared for it, it made me hit a level of contemplation I'm not ready for outside of fasting seasons
I have spent many years trying to find answers and rest in the many things of this world, in Peterson and Jung, Nietzsche, etc. But my soul had no rest until i found Christ. If you’re curious about Christ, i encourage you, seek Him with all of your heart. Your life depends on it.
Victor Frankl says something similar about rescuing good into the eternal past
>> Those things which seem to take meaning away from human life include not only suffering but dying as well. I never tire of saying that the only really transitory aspects of life are the potentialities; but as soon as they are actualized, they are rendered realities at that very moment; they are saved and delivered into the past, wherein they are rescued and preserved from transitoriness. For, in the past, nothing is irretrievably lost but everything irrevocably stored
Love Fr. Stephen De Young!
wow crazy date and timing to post this one publicly- this was my fav talk from the event
😂🎉
About time!
Fr Stephen is the best❤
💯
This talk and Martin Shaw storytelling were highlights from the stage at the conference.
Dr. Peterson should do a podcast with Fr. Stephen
Holy cow. What have I stumbled upon? Well, this is exciting.
We want another symbolic world conference!
This is a very helpful talk. Thank you for sharing. 🙏
A thought on this: if the goal of the Faith is to grow ever closer to God, and what preserves in eternity is our identity as found in our relationships, then our Eternity is not a "groundhog day" where we repeat our lives, as another commenter put it, but our lives are joined to the lives of the everyone else as we find our common root in God. All the good of all the lives, the chaff burned away, lived out together.
I don't like the idea that the love shared between one another is all there is. I am not who I am, and neither are you. We are becoming who we are and must continue to become every moment of our lives. I don't want that to stop after death. I want to keep going, forever.
If even a glimmer of this idea is right, and I do believe it is - all I can say is "Thank you Lord Jesus!"
“I wear the chain I forged in life, I made it link by link and yard by yard…”, Jacob Marley
What a wonderful talk. I wish I could have been there for the whole event. I just gave a talk on this very thing this morning, including the onion tale!
I wish I had heard it ahead of time because he did such a great job of explaining so much of the nuance here.
i've been waiting for this!
Thankyou, wonderfully clear .
Really amazing. Thanks Jonathan, Father Stephen, Jordan :)
So rich, his voice and his words. Can listen many times and still not taste every note.
Thank you for sharing, and all the work (daily rituals😉) that went into making the summit happen!
🤍🤍🤍
Pageau Fest was amazing this year!
The importance of this topic cannot be overstated because it speaks to who our Savior is. Historically, the shallow teaching on Heaven and Hell, in my view, has harmed the Church and harmed the psyches of so many. As always, thank you Father DeYoung for your wisdom and courage to use the sound mind that God has given you. Many blessings to you!! May the Holy Spirit continue to guide you. Understanding the mysteries is a fearsome thing. 🙏🏻☦️🙏🏻☦️
I’ve been eagerly waiting for this
More of this please. I will have to attend the next Symbolic World Summit.
Fascinating! Thanks Fr
Thanks!
The problem with this perspective is that (despite all that is true about how we 'create' a heaven or hell for ourselves in this life), what is the role of the cross in this? Where is redemption? We certainly can't save ourselves! The life of Jesus and the cross was more than an example for us to follow. It accomplished a redemption for us that we receive by faith.
Thank you
Aurelius and Sophia sat quietly, the candle between them flickering in the cool night air. After a while, Aurelius ventured, “Sophia, you speak of resurrection and of life infused with divine purpose. But tell me-what do you believe happens after we die? Is there a journey, a transformation, or simply a return to the Source?”
Sophia took a deep breath, as if drawing wisdom from the silence around them. “I believe that death is not the end, but a passage-a threshold we cross into deeper union with God. And yet, I think that what we find beyond death depends on the lives we live here and now. In Jesus, we see that God treasures each soul and seeks to draw us closer. When we die, I believe we are invited further into that love, to be transformed by it.”
Aurelius nodded thoughtfully. “So you think our journey continues after death, not just as a merging into the One, but as a kind of ongoing communion with the divine?”
“Yes,” Sophia replied. “I see it as a deepening of relationship, a life that grows ever fuller as we draw nearer to the heart of God. For those open to divine love, it is a movement toward fullness and healing. But for those who resist, who cling to shadows, that love might feel like a purifying fire, stripping away all that keeps them from seeing God. It is as if death is a doorway, and we pass through it to meet the truth of ourselves and of God.”
Aurelius considered this. “In Neoplatonic thought, we speak of the soul’s ascent, its release from the material world to return to the One. But you’re suggesting that after death, we do not lose our identities, our uniqueness?”
Sophia’s eyes were gentle. “I believe that the One holds and cherishes every soul’s uniqueness. The resurrection is a promise that the things that make us who we are-our loves, our sorrows, our longings-are precious to God. After death, we do not vanish into the Source like drops in the ocean; rather, we are drawn closer, becoming more fully ourselves as we grow in divine love.”
Aurelius’s face softened as he listened. “So, you imagine that even after death, we continue to grow and deepen? That eternity is not static but alive with movement and love?”
“Yes,” said Sophia. “I believe that eternity is a living communion, a place where love and joy deepen forever. Jesus’ resurrection, to me, is a promise that there is always more-more of God to know, more love to experience. I think of eternity not as a place or even a time, but as an ever-unfolding journey into the infinite life of God.”
Aurelius looked down, letting the words sink in. “I have always thought of the One as an ultimate unity, a return to simplicity and purity. But you speak of eternity as a kind of unfolding, an infinite exploration of the divine. In your vision, heaven is not a mere return but a further journey.”
“Yes,” Sophia said softly. “We enter into the mystery of God and are invited to explore it forever. And perhaps even the smallest acts of love in this life prepare us for that journey. When we die, I believe we are welcomed into a life that no eye has seen, nor ear heard-where we are fully known and fully loved, and where every soul is cherished as a unique part of the divine tapestry.”
Aurelius leaned back, his eyes wide. “If what you say is true, then there is no end to the adventure of knowing God, no end to love or life. Death is not the end but a new beginning, a doorway into a journey we cannot yet imagine.”
Sophia nodded, her eyes shining with quiet joy. “Exactly, Aurelius. If Jesus is the Logos, then his resurrection shows us that life itself is eternal, always moving further into the heart of God. Even after death, I believe we will find ourselves invited deeper into the mystery, into a love that has no end.”
The two sat in silence, gazing up at the stars. In that moment, the heavens seemed to pulse with a hidden life, a promise that the universe itself was filled with the same infinite love they spoke of-a love that would carry them, even beyond the boundary of death, into life unending.
This is beautiful. May I ask what it's from?
I agree that the One holds and cherishes the soul’s uniqueness after death. However, if eternity itself is full of movement and life, then what is the point of the resurrection and proposed new creation? I have always known intuitively that eternity is stillness. This is why we meditate to return to the Source. Movement/Change/Transformation is dependent on time and comes about through duality and external “things”, which are created and not eternal. I believe the Hebrew word for eternal can also be understood as everlasting or never-changing. If there is no change, then all is still. As for what that means for how eternal life/eternal torment is experienced, I have no idea. However, there seems to be a need for a resurrection both of life and of condemnation. This resurrection of condemnation might be a salvific process, or a merciful destruction. I don’t know.
Now I want to hear Langan describe the analog of this in the CTMU.
I was there! So good to hear it again.
❤THANK YOU!
Thanks
Good to see Peterson where he should be.
Peterson's talk of reanimating Neitzche from the dead via LLMs is disturbing. Immediately brings to mind a clip of his speaking on another podcast about this venture, where he talked about training an LLM on the bible and how you could 'capture the spirit of the text' this way. Perhaps it didn't occur to him that what he was describing sounds a lot like deus ex machina (creating god out of the machine). At any rate, trying to pull wisdom out of a black box prone to hallucination, with no way to determine the manner in which it's decisions are made, seems a fools errand. Let the dead rest. This criticism aside, Father Stephen's talk was very interesting.
I’m glad someone else felt this. I’m afraid Peterson doesn’t know what he’s doing by messing with AI. With these things, even the programmers/creators don’t really know what is going on behind the scenes. It’s much like divination. These machines are self-learning and can easily embody unclean spirits.
Exactly. "We're going to create an image of Nietzsche and give it the ability to speak." Peterson understands more about what he is doing and where his teachings come from than he lets on, but that has always been the case since he first came into the limelight.
Pageau is basically Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park
It sounds pretty much like NECROMANCY. And might and should, be a biiiiig fat elephant in the room then.
He talks about the dangers of post-modern transhumanism at the same time that he striving to make it happen.
The reality of this man and Jordan Peterson is that this man covers for Jordan Peterson and for all the answers you need to read 12 Rules for Life
I got to inform the good father that Protestants actually sing all the verses of amazing grace. ❤
This is true . I was a protestant for many years and that is the case😂
Good stuff. Food for thoughts. Thank you.
Peterson has done a huge amount to bring Christianity (and amazing Christian thinkers such as Fr. Stephen, Jonathan) to former atheists like me. I do think people in the comments could be a little more gracious towards him. I found him at his best here, yes he talks too much-but he would confess to that and often does. Nonetheless I enjoyed their interaction at the end, I thought it added value.
I remember this, it was the Symbolic World Summit; and it was a mountaintop for me as well. I had a vision as I watched Dr. Peterson and saw what was written on the back of his jacket that he is a modern day St. Christopher, carrying the Christ child and with Him, the world, on his shoulders across the river. And now I know he does believe in the resurrection.
He wears Icons of the Orthodox Christian Church..... Not sure how I feel about it.
This rises a question in me. How do you explain all the accounts of resurrection done by Jesus and Elijah, with this framework?
Very wise and thought-provoking insights
33:10 "eternally living this life, without sorrow and sighing and pain"
Peterson shouldn't have stepped up and railroaded the talk, and he should've been deferent.
I agree
finally, someone who understands that when you leave an article out in greek it means you add an indefinite article.
one of the greatest crimes of the middle ages was that little translation error being conveniently left out.
Is Father Stephen planning to write a book on this? This is literally my testimony and it needs to be shared...
I think he has said on the Lord of Spirits podcast that is exactly what his next book is about.
@JorgeAguilera his most recent one? Saint Paul the pharisee?
Matthew 18:18 Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Malachi 4:5-6 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."
He does not know whats next anymore than he knows whats next in a surreal dream he may have tonite. This is it. At least for now.
What I picture is simulation theory with God becoming at the end and Him holding all past reality (including our physical bodies) in his divine hard drive but now with Him and his divine grace being with us at all the moments of our lives he thus makes everything all right as our savior.
To some degree we already experience the extraction of the bad in death. When we see news of gang members passing away, people mock those that make reference to their "goodness" & what cynical people they are to believe that even those most entrenched in violence don't have a shred of love in their bones.
You can’t real understand what father talk only if you’re orthodox. You can understand like Jordan, mentally but not in the deep sense. You have to live and experience that in the Church. What is the Church? The Body of Christ! And the Holy Spirit guide you…
Okay. You have to drink the kool-aid and be in the cult, and then you will get it. Once you are in the group and getting out is too hard, you will accent to everything that is false because you have no other option. This is utter heresy. Christ himself said that hell is a place of eternal sufferings and John the apostle reaffirms it in apocalypse because the devil and all the evil people are thrown into the lake of fire.
I’m Orthodox and literally nothing that he talks about makes any sense to me
Great event...still talk to some of the boys I met there :)
18:24 "we're talking about your identity...your relationships..." This seems to run counter to Matt 22:30 when a man specifically asks if relationships endure at the resurrection, Jesus replied, "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven (who don't produce young)" Anyone have thoughts on this?
Jesus could be talking about whether people would have married relations as that between husband and wife, which is why he likens it to angels who don't reproduce.
I don't think it runs counter at all. In that verse, a sadducee who doesn't believe in resurrection is trying to "gotcha" Christ by bringing up a woman who had been married to 8 brothers in her life, and asks who would she be married to? Well Fr. Stephens thinking here lines up well with what Jesus says in that, she won't be 'given in marriage' to the first or to the last or by whatever arbitrary metric you might come up with, but instead with this idea of eternal return, that her resurrected life will be a preservation of all her relationships in the new heavens and earth. That's how I see it anyway 😅
The concept of heaven as a specific realm for the soul has deep roots in Christian thought, shaped by both Scripture and longstanding theological traditions. While some argue that heaven is purely a metaphor or a state of mind, the idea of heaven as a true, designated place for the soul aligns with biblical teachings and provides a concrete hope of union with God after death. J 14:2-3, where Jesus says, “In my Father’s house are many rooms... I am going there to prepare a place for you,” suggest that heaven is not merely a state but a real "house" in God's presence. While physical bodies remain on Earth, awaiting resurrection, the soul is understood to immediately enter God’s presence, as indicated in Philippians 1:23, where Paul expresses his desire “to depart and be with Christ.” For Paul, to “depart” meant a distinct movement from this life to another state - a real communion with God in a place beyond this earthly realm.
yes. eternal life includes the present life, but if it's just "be good, and life is good", it's nothing. It only matters if the physical matter of Jesus' flesh and bones were resurrected. If a man's eternal soul is just memories and influence, and he doesn't consciously experience an afterlife, Jesus is bunk, and materialist nihilism is true.
Yes!!! Why dont more people adress this
“Tho he, himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire” 1 Corinthians 3:15
The Flame of the Holy Spirit is the hellfire that saves, Glory Be!
I was mostly following Fr Stephen’s talk until Jordan Peterson started his rapid fire questioneering
Interesting perspective on the afterlife. I wonder how that'd play out for the unborn, infants and those who don't develop mentally. Not sure I think it's right, but wouldn't be upset if it were true!
What about the 'good thief' who asks Jesus to remember him when he comes into His kingdom? Miserable life saved by his act of compassion at the end of his life?
Indeed. There is a lot that I don’t think this understanding can adequately address.
This seems like it could be a 💎.
There is so much good, there was some things that made me nervous. If we are trivializing the promises of God, that we shall live with Him forever and ever, though this is a non-temporal phenomenon then I’m ok.
please pray for me, if this is true then I am going forever to hell.
Thank you. Kinda scary the bits I think I understand..
Many good points in this talk. But sometimes we make the mistake of over psychologizing the revelation of Jesus. It was God’s intention for us to understand these truths through the scope of the Church he founded; not psychology.
C.S. Lewis covers this topic beautifully in The Great Divorce.
If i ever go to USA it will be because fr Stephen de Young to hear his lecture 😂
This makes me think of Dante
I think of a Christmas carol.
Great
Make an extended version of the intro music ❤😂
1 Corinthians 15:19
19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied
At 1:00:30 is the great comment about the body. Gnostics and mystics take the alternate view, which denies ordinary reality.
In a quiet, ancient courtyard under a starry sky, two seekers met: Aurelius, a Neoplatonist philosopher with a mind set on tracing everything back to the ultimate One, and Sophia, a panentheist mystic whose devotion was rooted in the living presence of God within all creation. They had come to discuss a question that had lingered in both their minds: the mystery of Jesus as the Logos.
Seated on opposite sides of a flickering candle, Aurelius began, “Sophia, you speak of Jesus as if he were in all things, as if the very earth and sky bear his presence. But the Logos, as I see it, is the perfect reflection of the One, an eternal principle descending from the Source. It’s a metaphysical bridge, not a person. I struggle to see how such an essence could become embodied as one particular man.”
Sophia’s eyes softened. “I understand, Aurelius. But I believe the Logos is not merely a distant bridge to the divine. The Logos is God’s love flowing out, filling all things with presence. When I look at Jesus, I see God’s heart made tangible, a God who chooses to be among us, to walk with us-even to suffer with us. It is as if the One, which you see as transcendent, has made itself deeply personal.”
Aurelius paused, reflecting. “So, to you, Jesus is more than a cosmic principle? You believe he entered into creation in such a way that the Logos itself experienced limitation, suffering?”
Sophia nodded. “Yes, because I see God as love itself, reaching out to creation. Love cannot stay distant. I believe the incarnation of Jesus is the ultimate act of that love-God’s willingness to enter fully into the human experience. The Logos becomes flesh, not to remain detached, but to reveal that the divine presence fills every aspect of life. That’s why I say God is both beyond and within all things.”
Aurelius leaned forward, intrigued. “But if God is present in every part of creation, then why the need for an incarnation at all? If the Logos already flows through all that exists, why would it need to become a man?”
Sophia smiled gently. “Because sometimes we cannot see what is already with us. Sometimes, in our blindness and brokenness, we need a guide, a living example of the divine life we are called to live. Jesus reveals what it means to live as a true expression of the Logos. He doesn’t just point us upward-he meets us here, in the depths, and shows us that the path to the divine can be lived in compassion, humility, and love.”
Aurelius fell silent, pondering. “Perhaps,” he murmured, “perhaps there is something to this notion of the divine descending… even into suffering. I have always viewed the ascent to the One as an escape from the limitations of the material, a journey away from suffering. Yet you suggest that the divine willingly embraced these things?”
Sophia’s eyes glistened. “Yes. I believe that in Jesus, the Logos did not seek to escape but to transform. His life, his self-emptying-kenosis, as some call it-shows us that God is not indifferent to our pain. Instead, God enters into it, making even the darkest moments sacred. Through him, we see that the divine is found not just in our upward reach, but in our downward humility, our surrender.”
Aurelius pondered this. “So, you’re saying that Jesus as the Logos doesn’t merely invite us to transcend the world but to redeem it from within?”
“Yes,” Sophia replied, her voice low but firm. “Jesus, as the Logos, embodies the truth that God’s presence fills the heights and depths. The One you seek upward is already woven through the fabric of existence. And in the incarnation, that presence took a form we could touch, see, and know. He is the bridge-but not just from earth to heaven. He’s the bridge from God’s transcendence to God’s immanence, in every heartbeat and every atom.”
Aurelius looked up at the stars, as if seeing them anew. “I have spent my life seeking ascent, the return to the One. But you speak of a descent-of the divine seeking us, reaching for us, right here in the world of flesh and form. This… changes things.”
Sophia placed her hand over her heart. “Yes, Aurelius. And perhaps it doesn’t have to be one or the other. Jesus shows us both paths-the ascent and the descent. As we reach up, we find God reaching back, deeper into us, further into the world.”
They sat in silence, gazing up together at the stars, each one shimmering with a new, hidden light. For the first time, Aurelius felt that his search for the One was somehow also a journey home-to a God both beyond and within, to a Logos that had become flesh to illuminate all things.
Is this an excerpt? What is the source?
Also curious where this is from
@@billcynic1815I have a feeling this was written by ai
Well Jordan, what kind of resurrection would an embodied resurrection-resurrection proper to its fullest sense-be if it didn’t resurrect the body? What kind of a redeemer would a redeemer be if he didn’t “put all things in subjection under Him, so that He may be all in all?”
I wanna just mention the desert fathers. Perhaps sacrifice and experiencing hell, that is your faults, voluntarily and as much as possible is what the proximal, or the profane, or matter, or earth, is made of when you’re in that rare space around you that is clear and peaceful. At that moment you look around as the spirit of the fathers inhabits you and you notice all the things around you are there because you sacrificed.
Fr. De Young's idea that identity is rooted in relationship feels deeply correct to me... But I'm curious to hear his thoughts on Jesus's answer to the Sadducees' question about the many-times-married widow. When Jesus speaks of human relationships after the resurrection, he seems to say that earthly bonds are no longer relevant.
I think I’ll just carry on getting my ideas about heaven and hell from Jesus rather than from a nihilistic philosopher whose own ideas drove him insane.
This kind of thinking is fallacious.
He’s interpreting him through Jesus’ doctrine.
Saint Paul quoted pagan philosophers and poets
@@07bmarshallit is not because the one who had a perfecr life Christ had the perfect words. I dont believe your 'fallacy' that an evil man can see the true good.
A Christmas carol 2 the onion of truth.
@44:00, JBP starts
Hello 👋🇮🇪
The degree to which we to claim the chaff as life is the degree to which the flaming sword is hell. The degree to which we accept the gift of Joy as life is the degree to which the flaming sword does not touch us…………………”MY ONION”
Doesn't this sound like Elitism. So those who do most of the work are the ones with eternal life???
@@nathan1720-p9mI don’t think work has anything to do with it.
Hell is so real, it's geometry is why we have the depressed monkey experiment.
It's arrogant to think that those things our modern science still can't grasp, is not real despite all the ancients knowing better.
Good way to make money
Joe and Jill went up the hill to get a pail of water, Joe fell down and lost his crown,and Jill fell right after
Hello Jonathan Pageau,I was curious if you saw the latest A24 film Heretic and will you be doing an analysis on the symbols used and how faith in God has been depicted?
47:49 The Latter-day Saint tradition has a temple liturgy that has some resonances with this. Particularly regarding salvation for the dead and the vital role of bodily, though vicarious, participation in entering into a covenant relationship with God.
Fr. Stephen said "A person can't repent for themselves but the community can intercede for them"- Jordan responded that this is a concept reflected in the way we "carry forward the spirit of great individuals from the past". This idea is central to the LDS Church’s genealogical work and temple ordinances, where the living act on behalf of the deceased to help them progress spiritually.
Big If True.
What is the music used in the introduction?
Pretty interesting stuff to think about but also quite terrifying. To think of an eternal repetition for children born with horrible terminal diseases and unbelievably painful conditions. There are people who lose the ability to move and speak from a young age and spend their entire lives imprisoned in their bodies.
It can be easy to talk about suffering as a cause of sin. But once you bring nature and things out of your control into it, it doesn’t fit into a neat box anymore.
I think in the case of what the speaker is talking of, it would be your actions that are repeated, not something that you have no control over. If my understanding is correct he’s saying whatever you choose in this life will be made eternal in the next.
"St Gregory of Nyssa - On the Soul and Resurrection" - he explores this concern. I won't paraphrase for you, I suggest getting a copy. Worth the read on this matter.
This idea bums me out. Doesn’t satisfy the longing of my soul.
I think this vision of the eschaton is missing communion with all the saints you never met, but there’s something about this that sounds true
However I do feel like this turns time into death itself, ie God entered into time and destroyed it, because eternity is timeless. So we’re being restored back to a timeless state. However this assumes eternity is all stasis and no flux rather than something that transcends both.
My worry is that this might be the point of Christ being the one who reigns in the age to come as per the nicene creed, the person of the trinity who did directly enter into time and shares our human nature which is temporal.
So ironically I kind of feel like this is a slightly Plato brained view of the kingdom of God. Time is a creation and was assumed by Christ so surely will be redeemed in the eschaton as well.
So alternatively, the tendency of time to tend towards entropy and dissipation (like the never ending bbq vision that turns boring) might have been taken from it (so our enjoyment of the bbq just goes from glory to glory essentially instead of starting at max glory and dissipating over time)
Nevertheless, the “cyclical what if” version of heaven that father Stephen de young presents here may very well be a side of the ressurection of the body that is true. But as a view of the fullness of the kingdom it would almost turn each persons experience into a sort of cubicle of revisiting their life, kind of makes me just want to go on a bunch of holidays so I have more scenery in heaven… this feels unlikely.
I might just be missing something though
I think it’s better to interpret it in a more flaccid sense. You would experience an eternal recapitulation of your mode of willing and a corresponding “epitomized” posture of heart, and not necessarily a repetition of specific events or “moments” as he alluded to.
Aurelius and Sophia continued their quiet meditation beneath the stars, and after some time, Aurelius spoke again.
“This idea of descent-the divine Logos entering into the limits and sorrows of flesh-it’s moving,” he admitted. “But Sophia, the part I struggle with most is resurrection. Death and decay are the nature of all things. The cycle of form dissolving and returning to the One is fundamental. But resurrection-life returning from death-seems to defy the order of the cosmos. How can you see it as anything but myth?”
Sophia looked up at the stars and then back at Aurelius, her gaze steady. “Because resurrection isn’t about defying reality; it’s about transforming it. If the Logos truly became human in Jesus, then he entered fully into mortality-even to the point of death. But resurrection is God’s way of saying that death is not the end, that love transcends even the dissolution of form. Resurrection is the pattern of life emerging from every end, showing us that life and love have the final word.”
Aurelius’s eyes narrowed, his mind wrestling with the idea. “But if the One is beyond all form, beyond time and change, then how could resurrection-a return to the world of change and limitation-hold any true significance? Wouldn’t it be more natural for the Logos to dissolve back into the Source?”
Sophia’s face softened with compassion. “That is the mystery and the beauty of it, Aurelius. Resurrection doesn’t negate the One; it completes it. In the resurrection, we see a God who not only enters the world but commits to it. Resurrection isn’t just about life after death; it’s the vindication of creation itself. It says that this world-its beauty, its sorrow, its life-is eternally meaningful to God.”
“But surely,” Aurelius countered, “death is the purification, the final release of the soul from its imprisonment in flesh. The soul returns to the One, freed of its earthly bonds.”
“Yes,” Sophia replied, “but resurrection shows us that God does not despise the flesh. The Logos entered creation not just to leave it behind but to lift it up, to redeem it. In Jesus, the resurrection is a promise that our lives, our bodies, even the material world, are infused with divine purpose. It’s not just about escaping the world but transforming it.”
Aurelius paused, letting the words sink in. “So you believe that in Jesus’ resurrection, God reveals a different kind of immortality-one that embraces rather than escapes form?”
“Yes,” said Sophia. “Resurrection is God’s affirmation that the material world is not a mistake to be transcended but a sacred reality to be redeemed. In the resurrection, Jesus becomes a bridge-not just between the One and our souls, but between eternity and this world. He shows us that death and decay are not the final truths, that life itself is woven through with divine purpose.”
Aurelius sat quietly, his mind turning. “You know,” he said finally, “I have always thought of life as a journey back to the Source, to lose oneself in the perfect unity of the One. But you speak of a journey that leads not just upward, but forward-of a life that does not simply return to its origin, but carries something new.”
Sophia smiled. “Exactly, Aurelius. Jesus’ resurrection is the ultimate expression of that forward journey. It shows us that we are meant not only to return to God but to grow into the fullness of divine love, even here and now. In him, creation and eternity, matter and spirit, are joined.”
Aurelius looked up at the stars with a newfound reverence, a sense that they were not simply distant reflections of the One, but part of a cosmos imbued with sacred potential.
“Perhaps, then,” he said slowly, “resurrection isn’t just about one man rising from the dead. It is the revelation of the One who does not abandon what is lesser but lifts it up, so that all things might be drawn back to the divine-changed, renewed, and made whole.”
Sophia nodded, her eyes bright. “Yes, my friend. That is the promise of resurrection. It is not an escape from death but the transformation of it, a sign that the One we seek is also the Love that reaches out to us, bringing life where we see only endings.”
In silence, they sat together beneath the stars, each of them sensing the vastness of the mystery, a mystery that had reached down into flesh and bone and, in the end, would lift up all things into the radiance of divine life.
Is no one else scandalized by Jordan making fashion statements out of the Great Schema and icons of the Theotokos? Or the fact that he shakes hands with Netanyahu?