Creating a reasonably accurate 'cards-and-dice' possession-by-possession basketball game that flows well and can be completed in, say, under an hour with the keeping of basic stats (such as points, rebounds, assists, blocks) seems very difficult, if not impossible. I've researched more than a few of these games and I've been turned off by: 1. the game flow (either uses fast action cards that you need a coding degree to decipher or a veritable cup full of variously sided dice), and/or 2. the time needed to complete one game (typically at least ninety minutes though usually more). I have been told that several games that meet my expectations exist on computer (i.e not cards and dice) -- but I am not interested in playing sports sim games on computer. I do own Clark & Addison's Uptempo Basketball, which is good. But I think of Uptempo Basketball more as a "simulation" than a "game." With Top of the Key Basketball, are you trying to create more of a 'game'?
This feels more like a simulation than a game, but I'm not really sure about your definition. Can you explain what you think the differences are? This game will take a while to complete. Maybe 30-40 minutes per quarter? I haven't timed it yet. You might like Triple Threat Basketball: youtube.com/@triplethreatbasketballgame?si=IXQnOimaG4kDNzd0. It is full play and has a unique game engine. It was featured on Rod's Tabletop Hoops: ua-cam.com/video/F-itnItMjU8/v-deo.htmlsi=dnFio5iIPa7tLV7o. You can find the NBA 75 set at clarkandaddisongaming.com. The issue with basketball and football is the sheer number of plays that must be run. Both will have at minimum 120 plays but probably more. At a minute per play you're already at 2 hours. Thirty seconds per play would get you at an hour. I find both sports difficult to speed up unless you take a team-based approach. Uptempo Basketball is about the fastest i could do. You can play a game in under an hour even rolling dice and using the most detailed version. This game, though, is more detailed than Uptempo Basketball. There are individual cards and multiple types of shots. I also tried to include rare plays and fast breaks.
@@ClarkandAddisonGamingCo A cards-and-dice basketball 'game' would allow for decisions to be made at the team, coach, and/or player level. Examples of said decision making: Team level: Moving a player to a different team; Coach level: Substituting players in and out during a game; Player level: Do I attempt a two-point shot or a three-point shot on this possession? Time-efficient and card-and-dice basketball and football games are difficult to create due to the nature of play in those sports. As a teenager, I owned Strat-O-Matic basketball and did not find it enjoyable simply due to the time required to complete a game. Perhaps, so called 'full-play' cards-and-dice basketball and football games just aren't for me. Anyway, thanks for posting your work -- it is very interesting to follow.
i do completely understand your point. i also think a full game like this one is really going to appeal to the hardcore basketball fan. what i've tried to do is create some decision making and some simulation. in your explanation, there is some coach level decision making in the game, but it's more than just player management. it also involves coaching strategies regarding putting particular players into particular positions. the gamer can shape who gets the ball and what types of plays will be the majority plays. every game has a specific thing it is focusing on and this game's focus is that decision making process around the different plays. the hardest part about the major sports other than baseball is the number of plays and the number of participants simultaneously acting on one another. there are multiple players that can affect the person with the ball on any given play. how can we accurately reflect all of that movement while maintaining focus on the player with the ball? that's the hardest part and why even basketball and football maintain a focus on either team play or one-on-one battles between the player with the ball and the defender. that makes it the most like a baseball game and easier to port the baseball game mechanics to another sport. to create an experience more like the actual sport is to create a level of complexity that mirrors a military game and mechanics. the problem i often run into with basketball and football (when they get too complex) is that you begin to lose the feel of the game. that's why makes uptempo basketball so great--it feels like the back and forth of a basketball game. you can get so lost in figuring out what happened on the play that you completely lose what you love to watch about the game. it's like always watching the sport in slow motion. there may be moments in a game that are cool to watch that way but not the whole game. i've always said that if you want to play any sport in detail with a correct simulation of the sport in under an hour you have to play a video game. the computer does so much of the heavy lifting that it makes it possible. on the tabletop you just have to be prepared to spend a couple of hours (minimum) on football, hockey, or basketball. just the sheer number of plays is going to push you well past an hour even at one roll per play result. uptempo basketball cuts as many corners as i possibly can while still giving a full play experience. this game also cuts some corners but it an even more full play experience. to each their own, i think. it's important that we have all types of games because there are all types of gamers. that's my philosophy as a gaming company, anyway. so if something doesn't exist that matches what a group of people want there is a way to do that. it just needs to be easy to produce seasons. if you know of a way to extend uptempo basketball so that it is a little more detailed while remaining quick to play i'd be all for that. i've tried to add more details in the past but haven't been super successful.
@@ClarkandAddisonGamingCo I've been following your channel since I saw your tutorials on how to create a game and distribute the probabilities. They were very helpful. Thank you very much! I decided to make a soccer game, and I basically agree with everything you said above. It's very difficult to create something so detailed, in soccer you have to keep track of 11 players per team. I made several versions based on different dice mechanics and different stats, and I came up with a super detailed version but as you said in one of your videos, it lost its charm, it lost the fun. Too many variables, it doesn't feel like a soccer match I tried several times to transfer it to a board to see the players movements in real time, but it is very complicated. I managed to put each player in a specific place for each move, but then it gets even more complicated, knowing who moves and how. Either it has some simulation or it loses all that to become a mere board game, with simple movements and no stats. It is difficult to find the middle ground between simulation and fun. And it also adds more complexity by trying to make each player make decisions. that involves more steps and that makes it even slower. What I've been doing for a while now is trying to cut down as much as possible trying to use less dice rolls and less charts These sports like soccer, basketball or hockey unlike baseball, we are talking about the movement of the ball and the players around the field, and finding different open spaces to attack. So I was trying to somehow show that on a board, and giving the player the option to choose between two or three possibilities of action as shown in this game and not just using charts. Well, I wanted to comment on that, sorry for writing so much. But it is very interesting because I have been thinking for a long time about this same thing that both you and @winstonsmif6881 wrote and watching different games It is very interesting.
@TheEzemikedirnt thanks for the words. It's good to know we designers aren't alone in trying to make the complex simple enough for the tabletop 🙂 I sometimes find it necessary to do what you have done: start detailed and then work on playability. It is sometimes good to go playable then add detail. One thing I like to do also is take one particular aspect of the game to add detail while taking detail away from other parts of the sport. Maybe it is tactics and playcalling or detail in the shot/goalkeeper interaction or detail in penalties. Maybe just looking at what parts of soccer board games do you wish were there that aren't in any other games. That is sometimes an easier way to start. Thanks again.
Thanks. It is not available yet. I'm close to having a beta season available. Not sure about the game you mentioned. This is a design I've had for about a year.
@@KevinHennessy-q5w Thanks for the suggestion. There is some data for that. Just have to think about how to get that into a usable rating. After playing a few games I'm reconsidering several parts of the game. I suspect that the final iteration will be less cumbersome.
There is quite a difference in players foul drawing ability (and how referred might call fouls to benefit certain players, Embiid and Booker come to mind!), possibly FT' per minute or shot attempt could estimate that. I need to finish your video as I don't want answers to my questions popping up later in the video. Picking an offense is interesting. Let me know if you want to see some scans of the Fantasm game, it wasn't very well thought out or play tested.
Thanks, you could send a copy of that game to clarkandaddisongaming@gmail.com. There is a stat on Basketball Reference called FT/FGA which is free throws per FG attempt. That is at least a stat that could differentiate. There is also a shooting fouls drawn stat. Maybe come up with shooting fouls drawn per minute? Something to think about.
Def agree. It's a lot to manage on the tabletop but probably no more than other full play basketball games. I tried to keep it simple in places where that makes sense.
Your use of the 10-sided dice is confusing. The dice appear to be 0-9, but your lookups are 1-10. Also, percent are read as is (die 7 and 3 is 73%). But that doesn't seem to make sense unless the 0 is a 10. But when you demoed, you rolled a 0 and 7 calling it a 7 which means 0 is 0 not 10. How do you get 100? If 0 is 0 then 00-99. If 0 is 10 then 11-1010 (not sure what 1010 would be). Anyway, die usage is confusing.
I do understand the confusion. However, because I'm not selling dice with this game then it's necessary for the gamer to work out the dice needed for each roll. Some may want to use a d100 and d10. Others might want to use two 0-9 d10s and some two 1-10 d10s. So the range is 1-100. However you need to read the dice to get there is how each gamer should read his/her dice. Hopefully, that is not too confusing.
Creating a reasonably accurate 'cards-and-dice' possession-by-possession basketball game that flows well and can be completed in, say, under an hour with the keeping of basic stats (such as points, rebounds, assists, blocks) seems very difficult, if not impossible. I've researched more than a few of these games and I've been turned off by: 1. the game flow (either uses fast action cards that you need a coding degree to decipher or a veritable cup full of variously sided dice), and/or 2. the time needed to complete one game (typically at least ninety minutes though usually more).
I have been told that several games that meet my expectations exist on computer (i.e not cards and dice) -- but I am not interested in playing sports sim games on computer.
I do own Clark & Addison's Uptempo Basketball, which is good. But I think of Uptempo Basketball more as a "simulation" than a "game." With Top of the Key Basketball, are you trying to create more of a 'game'?
This feels more like a simulation than a game, but I'm not really sure about your definition. Can you explain what you think the differences are?
This game will take a while to complete. Maybe 30-40 minutes per quarter? I haven't timed it yet.
You might like Triple Threat Basketball: youtube.com/@triplethreatbasketballgame?si=IXQnOimaG4kDNzd0. It is full play and has a unique game engine. It was featured on Rod's Tabletop Hoops: ua-cam.com/video/F-itnItMjU8/v-deo.htmlsi=dnFio5iIPa7tLV7o. You can find the NBA 75 set at clarkandaddisongaming.com.
The issue with basketball and football is the sheer number of plays that must be run. Both will have at minimum 120 plays but probably more. At a minute per play you're already at 2 hours. Thirty seconds per play would get you at an hour. I find both sports difficult to speed up unless you take a team-based approach. Uptempo Basketball is about the fastest i could do. You can play a game in under an hour even rolling dice and using the most detailed version.
This game, though, is more detailed than Uptempo Basketball. There are individual cards and multiple types of shots. I also tried to include rare plays and fast breaks.
@@ClarkandAddisonGamingCo A cards-and-dice basketball 'game' would allow for decisions to be made at the team, coach, and/or player level. Examples of said decision making: Team level: Moving a player to a different team; Coach level: Substituting players in and out during a game; Player level: Do I attempt a two-point shot or a three-point shot on this possession? Time-efficient and card-and-dice basketball and football games are difficult to create due to the nature of play in those sports. As a teenager, I owned Strat-O-Matic basketball and did not find it enjoyable simply due to the time required to complete a game. Perhaps, so called 'full-play' cards-and-dice basketball and football games just aren't for me. Anyway, thanks for posting your work -- it is very interesting to follow.
i do completely understand your point. i also think a full game like this one is really going to appeal to the hardcore basketball fan. what i've tried to do is create some decision making and some simulation. in your explanation, there is some coach level decision making in the game, but it's more than just player management. it also involves coaching strategies regarding putting particular players into particular positions. the gamer can shape who gets the ball and what types of plays will be the majority plays. every game has a specific thing it is focusing on and this game's focus is that decision making process around the different plays.
the hardest part about the major sports other than baseball is the number of plays and the number of participants simultaneously acting on one another. there are multiple players that can affect the person with the ball on any given play. how can we accurately reflect all of that movement while maintaining focus on the player with the ball? that's the hardest part and why even basketball and football maintain a focus on either team play or one-on-one battles between the player with the ball and the defender. that makes it the most like a baseball game and easier to port the baseball game mechanics to another sport. to create an experience more like the actual sport is to create a level of complexity that mirrors a military game and mechanics.
the problem i often run into with basketball and football (when they get too complex) is that you begin to lose the feel of the game. that's why makes uptempo basketball so great--it feels like the back and forth of a basketball game. you can get so lost in figuring out what happened on the play that you completely lose what you love to watch about the game. it's like always watching the sport in slow motion. there may be moments in a game that are cool to watch that way but not the whole game.
i've always said that if you want to play any sport in detail with a correct simulation of the sport in under an hour you have to play a video game. the computer does so much of the heavy lifting that it makes it possible. on the tabletop you just have to be prepared to spend a couple of hours (minimum) on football, hockey, or basketball. just the sheer number of plays is going to push you well past an hour even at one roll per play result. uptempo basketball cuts as many corners as i possibly can while still giving a full play experience. this game also cuts some corners but it an even more full play experience. to each their own, i think. it's important that we have all types of games because there are all types of gamers. that's my philosophy as a gaming company, anyway. so if something doesn't exist that matches what a group of people want there is a way to do that. it just needs to be easy to produce seasons.
if you know of a way to extend uptempo basketball so that it is a little more detailed while remaining quick to play i'd be all for that. i've tried to add more details in the past but haven't been super successful.
@@ClarkandAddisonGamingCo I've been following your channel since I saw your tutorials on how to create a game and distribute the probabilities.
They were very helpful. Thank you very much!
I decided to make a soccer game, and I basically agree with everything you said above.
It's very difficult to create something so detailed, in soccer you have to keep track of 11 players per team.
I made several versions based on different dice mechanics and different stats, and I came up with a super detailed version but as you said in one of your videos, it lost its charm, it lost the fun.
Too many variables, it doesn't feel like a soccer match
I tried several times to transfer it to a board to see the players movements in real time, but it is very complicated.
I managed to put each player in a specific place for each move, but then it gets even more complicated, knowing who moves and how.
Either it has some simulation or it loses all that to become a mere board game, with simple movements and no stats.
It is difficult to find the middle ground between simulation and fun.
And it also adds more complexity by trying to make each player make decisions. that involves more steps and that makes it even slower.
What I've been doing for a while now is trying to cut down as much as possible trying to use less dice rolls and less charts
These sports like soccer, basketball or hockey unlike baseball, we are talking about the movement of the ball and the players around the field, and finding different open spaces to attack.
So I was trying to somehow show that on a board, and giving the player the option to choose between two or three possibilities of action as shown in this game and not just using charts.
Well, I wanted to comment on that, sorry for writing so much. But it is very interesting because I have been thinking for a long time about this same thing that both you and @winstonsmif6881 wrote and watching different games
It is very interesting.
@TheEzemikedirnt thanks for the words. It's good to know we designers aren't alone in trying to make the complex simple enough for the tabletop 🙂
I sometimes find it necessary to do what you have done: start detailed and then work on playability. It is sometimes good to go playable then add detail. One thing I like to do also is take one particular aspect of the game to add detail while taking detail away from other parts of the sport. Maybe it is tactics and playcalling or detail in the shot/goalkeeper interaction or detail in penalties. Maybe just looking at what parts of soccer board games do you wish were there that aren't in any other games. That is sometimes an easier way to start.
Thanks again.
Would need to see at least some of the cards and charts up close to gauge interest . . .
I understand. What is it that you're looking to see?
@@ClarkandAddisonGamingCo The game parts in the video would be a good start.
@RayManzarekRocks i'll be putting a beta season together. Then you'll be able to download the player cards and game components.
So this is a different game from Uptempo Basketball? It isn't available yet? Reminds me a bit of Pro Basketball Fantasm but much more thought out!
Thanks. It is not available yet. I'm close to having a beta season available. Not sure about the game you mentioned. This is a design I've had for about a year.
One thing I would try to change is to add foul drawing as a characteristic rather than have found drawing be a 1 on the D6.
@@KevinHennessy-q5w Thanks for the suggestion. There is some data for that. Just have to think about how to get that into a usable rating. After playing a few games I'm reconsidering several parts of the game. I suspect that the final iteration will be less cumbersome.
There is quite a difference in players foul drawing ability (and how referred might call fouls to benefit certain players, Embiid and Booker come to mind!), possibly FT' per minute or shot attempt could estimate that. I need to finish your video as I don't want answers to my questions popping up later in the video. Picking an offense is interesting. Let me know if you want to see some scans of the Fantasm game, it wasn't very well thought out or play tested.
Thanks, you could send a copy of that game to clarkandaddisongaming@gmail.com.
There is a stat on Basketball Reference called FT/FGA which is free throws per FG attempt. That is at least a stat that could differentiate. There is also a shooting fouls drawn stat. Maybe come up with shooting fouls drawn per minute? Something to think about.
If it was an app
Def agree. It's a lot to manage on the tabletop but probably no more than other full play basketball games. I tried to keep it simple in places where that makes sense.
Your use of the 10-sided dice is confusing. The dice appear to be 0-9, but your lookups are 1-10. Also, percent are read as is (die 7 and 3 is 73%). But that doesn't seem to make sense unless the 0 is a 10. But when you demoed, you rolled a 0 and 7 calling it a 7 which means 0 is 0 not 10. How do you get 100? If 0 is 0 then 00-99. If 0 is 10 then 11-1010 (not sure what 1010 would be). Anyway, die usage is confusing.
I do understand the confusion. However, because I'm not selling dice with this game then it's necessary for the gamer to work out the dice needed for each roll. Some may want to use a d100 and d10. Others might want to use two 0-9 d10s and some two 1-10 d10s. So the range is 1-100. However you need to read the dice to get there is how each gamer should read his/her dice. Hopefully, that is not too confusing.