What's Really Going On?
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- Many people struggle in their faith because they have read in the Old Testament about the violence promoted and done by God. They ask how that violence is actually loving, and how it aligns with the God revealed in Jesus Christ on the cross. In this sermon, Greg provides a way to read these passages so that they point to the cross and demonstrate God’s love for the world.
Find a study guide for this message, and more sermon media on our website here: whchurch.org/w...
Greg, thank you so much for your sermon, also for the book Cross Vision. I feel there is something to do with what the author thought their God asked them to do at that historical moment. Our Lord Jesus came to save our body and soul. His enemies killed him, Father God raised him. That specific Cross is a sign of sacrificial love Jesus represented for our God.
To @dylan Agreed. This concept is really difficult! If you have not had the opportunity to read Greg’s book Cross Vision, I encourage you to do so. It helped me.
I am having a difficult time with this interpretation. Now, I am far less knowledgeable and far less educated on theology than someone like Greg. However, to me, there is a difference between how God "stooped" when he was embodied through Jesus on the cross and how he supposedly "stooped" to work with the Israelites as depicted in the old testament. The difference to me is in that God was embodied through Jesus, and not through Pontius Pilate or any of the Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus. Through Jesus, God endured the consequence of our sins; He himself did not commit sin or order that Pilate condemn Jesus to be crucified. However, when considering how God is portrayed as ordering the Israelites to commit genocide, this seems to portray God commanding his people to break at least one of the 10 commandments and to seemingly go against His nature as depicted in Christ. It is one thing for God to work with a sinful nation, it is another thing for God to say, "OK well, if you are going to sin and not obey my commands, then I will command you to sin really badly". And to say that this whole depiction of the Old Testament God is based off of a misunderstanding by Moses, seems to weaken the Bible's claim to be the inspired Word of God. Can anyone chime in on this?
Good thoughts, Dylan. I will address this on The MuseCast today at 4p here on Woodland Hills channel.
@@AuthorDanKent Great! I look forward to tuning in : )
@@dylanpomykacz4103 You can email me at the church website, too, if you want to chat more about it. Not sure how well I addressed your comment.
Hi Dylan, here are some thoughts from Greg:
You’re correct that with Jesus, God is the victim of violence, whereas in the OT, he is depicted as the perpetrator of violence.
In my book, Crucifixion of the Warrior God, I go into Rene Gerards “scapegoat theory.” I can’t get into it now, but basically, on the cross Jesus is exposing the truth, which is that God has been innocent all along, and God has always been the victim of our violence and sin - including all the violent ways we’ve ever conceived of him.
If you’re interested to go further, I’d encourage you to read Cross Vision, or if you’re REALLY motivated and like a more rigorously academic meal, check out Crucifixion of the Warrior God.
Bless you!
GB
Hey Dylan, I agree with you. I love Greg but every time I hear him explain this position he seems to get really muddled in his explanation. Knowing Greg's ADHD personality I am sure it's very clear in his mind, but very difficult to verbalize (like a scientist trying to explain string theory and theoretical physics to an average layman).
My 2 cents: the Bible seems to make a big deal out of the fact Jesus is the supreme revelation of God and the exact representation of His being (ie Hebrews 1). I take that to mean that anything beforehand is less than perfect and less than exactly representing God --including revelations via Angels and prophets. Sometimes it comes closer than other times, but still not perfect. Also, hyperbole is common throughout OT and NT (Paul is super hyperbolic, often walking back extreme statements a few verses later).
Another view I hold is that God may give revelation that is perfect but the prophet teaching and application of that revelation might be less than perfect or require a lot of context. For example Paul says in 1cor 7 there are certain instructions directly from the Lord (Jesus)and other wisdom from his own assessments (vs 12). IOW, it's like saying "I'm an expert in ergonomics, but given xyz super unique situation here is my best advice (opinion) based on my education (revelation) "
Finally Paul also seems to set a paradigm of application of divine revelation . He will say things to the effect of "it's best not to marry" but if you're going to marry, marry a believer, but if you're already married to an unbeliever/ marry one anyway then try to make it work according to such and such spiritual principles ...IOW, "here's the ideal, but if you're not going to do that, then at least follow these 10 guidelines, if not that then at least follow these 9 guidelines, etc etc "
So in my interpretation, the Bible is often hyperbolic, some points are less inspired than others and some parts frankly have errors. Sometimes the people in the Bible announce terrible things in the name of God via a hyperbolic statement and sometimes people move forward with actions against Gods will and the best God can do is to at least keep them within certain boundaries (like saying "okay, if you're going to do drugs and get drunk regardless of my advice, at least don't drive while under the influence"
Brilliant Greg, thank you so much Brother 💌