I think you handled it quite well. +7 hours of alpine flying will make any pilot a bit tired. Glider is open and flying after 180 degrees in strong lee turbulence. Not much to complain about.
Thanks for sharing your insight, I think it's always important to reflect on the human factors sequence of events which lead up to an incident. Awareness of our own human performance and limitations is a key aspect of safe flying.
Not really, you can see it in the full timelapse (289km flight on my channel). I left at base on the oder side of the valley. I could have flown into the luv side and soared just past the moutain and climb on the next, would have been the better line for sure. My mate, that was flying with me and was a bit behind at this point, did this after I warned him that this lee side sucks and he could catch up with me easy. So yeah, this was just a bad line from the beginning.
Ich finde, Du hast gut reagiert. Insbesondere wenn man die 7h Flugzeit in bewegter Luft berücksichtigt. Wer ist da noch so geistesgegenwärtig wie zu Beginn des Fluges? Der Zeno hat diesen Vollzerstörer ohne gröbere Sauereien weggesteckt. Hatte mir das unangenehmer vorgestellt.
Tatsächlich ist der Zeno 2 bisher immer recht brav gewesen. Hatte seit 08/22 genau 2 größere Klapper, das war einer davon, der andere war recht identisch, aber beschleunigt und beide sind mit entsprechendem input wieder ziemlich problemlos aufgegangen. Ist halt kein "hands off" Schirm, aber für die Klasse und die Performance schon sehr gut.
@@infinityfumble Du brauchst kein SIV mehr. Einfach weiter so in Form bleiben und selber ueber Wasser trainieren. Ich schicke Dir die Wasserrettung raus, wenns is... (-:
@@xandimeschuh279 Ha, danke für das Lob, aber ich glaub da ist schon noch gut Luft nach oben bei den Schirmskills :> Und gut zu wissen, da komm ich dann wahrscheinlich notgedrungen drauf zurück hehe 🌊😬
Well I guess a) when you release the brakes the pressure in the front of the canopy wil reduce, since air will flow back into the trailing edge of the canopy. When you brake agressivly on the brakes you can force air from the back towards the front, to make the front more collapse resistant. B) additional to a - when you release the brakes the glider will surge forward, especially those high D / CCC Gliders, this will reduce the AOA and again make it more prone for collapses. So if all of that comes together - less pressure in the canopy, small AOA and then you also get a wack on the wing from an bad leeside rotor - the result is what you can see in the video. At least thats how I understand it. If I´m wrong please somebody correct me.
@@infinityfumble Ofcourse, but is there any conclusion to be derived from this if empiric observations say there is a connection? For example letting go of a somewhat deep input slower or generally making more minimalistic inputs a la "bare minimum" instead of "spray and pray" or maybe mindfully expecting a collapse every time we release an input in murky air while looking up. That's whats keeping me awake at night. Also I guess it is somewhat counter-intuitive to catch a collapse by a nice punch if you are just in the process of releasing brake pressure. Also, I'm pretty sure that I personally brake too much when I feel uncomfortable about the air. If it is really bad, I sometimes have told to myself: "come on, put your hands 1,5 cm more upward, it will be fine!" And then it actually felt way better.
@@thisisyol I did ask some experts to give their opinion on the video, waiting for the replys and will share once I get them. But in general Im just an intermediate pilot as well, so Im sure Im lacking a lot of knowledge here also.
@@infinityfumble I think the mistake, if you can call it that, especially after a 7 hour flight, is the intitial breaking on the right side (at 1.12). I think with the turbulence in this moment the wing had a small angle of attack like when you push the speedbar. If you pull the break in this moment you will collapse your glider. I think thats why it starts collapsing on the right side first. The release of the break is already after the collapse is starting. But the pilot kept cool and didnt over react, props to that. But if he says he is only an intermediate pilot than a EN-D Wing is probably not the right fit. I have the feeling most pilots fly wings that don't fit their skill level, but thats another issue.
Hey, super und vielen Dank für das Video. Ich finde es immer gut, wenn solche Videos geteilt werden, damit wir alle etwas lernen können. Deswegen: Wo war das? Woher kam der überregionale Wind? Wie hoch kam der Talwind an dem Tag - von welcher Seite? Danke!
Hi, das ist die Südseite vom Tristner im Zillertal. Wind kam aus NW bis Nord, also über den Gipfel drüber aus der Richtung wo ich den roten Pfeil eingezeichnet habe. Keine Ahnung wie hoch der Talwind an dem Tag ging. Der Berg ist aber etwas hinter dem Ahorn gelegen, der Talwind betrifft eher den Ahorn denke ich. Der Tristner ist aber auch super Markant und Spitz oben am Gipfel, das is so eine richtiger Zacken. Je markanter das Hindernis ist, desto heftiger sind auch die Leeverwirbelungen. Über einen recht flachen Bergrücken zieht der Wind bedeutend störungsfreier drüber. Da erklärt es der Ferdinand Vogel sehr gut mit Visualisierung. Der Tristner sieht so aus wie es bei ca. 1:45 gezeigt wird. ua-cam.com/video/AxmIALBSZoU/v-deo.htmlsi=Y4uxPnFVyJQ1nb1G
Good question, I did check it frame by frame and from me seeing it go to my reaction of banging the brakes it is exactly 1 second, so I guess that is actually not as bad as I thought, giving the flight time and my lack of hydration and food.
Your right hand seem to "hold" onto the riser. Its "harder" for the brain to let loose in those cases. I never grab or hold to the risers unless I am speeding and use B-Lines stearing.
lol i think i should put it infront of every video, because i get this question every time :> Icaro Nero Hero in special edition colors. Think they only made a few back when it came out. Not available anymore sadly.
I think you're a bit hard on yourself, you handled this quite nicely. I think more than 80% of Viewers would have died twisted wrapped in their lines if they had to Handle this and you get off with just a collapse!
@ service.dhv.de/db3/gebrauchtmarkt/anzeige/id/160735/from/merkliste da ist einer, ultra selten die dinger, vor allem in der special edition...allerdings in orange. Und der hat auch neu nur 300 gekostet und nicht 450 wie da steht. zumindest war meiner im outlet bei 300 meine ich.
Thanks for posting. Great recovery from a nasty situation! This is worth checking out for 2 liner pilots, your incident does look like rotor but it does also coincides with your release of the brake, Ari discusses this in this video: ua-cam.com/video/2QU7CZO-Mew/v-deo.htmlsi=KHXoIX1R6kElpSrw
Thanks, and yeah I saw that video from Ari, very helpful as well. In this case im pretty sure it was a strong rotor wack. You can see my getting pulled in at the beginning, but yeah might be a combination of that and my hands being up at the moment the rotor hits.
that reaction was not that bad ! I was surprised that in this upward surge you got the front collapse, but if it's leeside..... I guess when you would have waited with your reaction a second or more longer, then really bad stuff would have happend But as is, well done 😏
I think you handled it quite well. +7 hours of alpine flying will make any pilot a bit tired. Glider is open and flying after 180 degrees in strong lee turbulence. Not much to complain about.
Great video and great analysis. Thanks so much for sharing!
this is why i only fly high-B. Cool recovery :-)
Thanks for sharing your insight, I think it's always important to reflect on the human factors sequence of events which lead up to an incident. Awareness of our own human performance and limitations is a key aspect of safe flying.
fantastic video. Thanks for sharing it!
Thanks for sharing and analysis
Proper debrief. Agree, Tired is time to assess options. Could you have arrived at that spot much higher even if it meant to backtrack and go up?
Not really, you can see it in the full timelapse (289km flight on my channel). I left at base on the oder side of the valley. I could have flown into the luv side and soared just past the moutain and climb on the next, would have been the better line for sure. My mate, that was flying with me and was a bit behind at this point, did this after I warned him that this lee side sucks and he could catch up with me easy. So yeah, this was just a bad line from the beginning.
Nice save!!!!!!!
Have a good 2025!
Thanks, you too :)
Ich finde, Du hast gut reagiert. Insbesondere wenn man die 7h Flugzeit in bewegter Luft berücksichtigt. Wer ist da noch so geistesgegenwärtig wie zu Beginn des Fluges? Der Zeno hat diesen Vollzerstörer ohne gröbere Sauereien weggesteckt. Hatte mir das unangenehmer vorgestellt.
Tatsächlich ist der Zeno 2 bisher immer recht brav gewesen. Hatte seit 08/22 genau 2 größere Klapper, das war einer davon, der andere war recht identisch, aber beschleunigt und beide sind mit entsprechendem input wieder ziemlich problemlos aufgegangen. Ist halt kein "hands off" Schirm, aber für die Klasse und die Performance schon sehr gut.
Super gemacht !
Danke dir, sollte vielleicht mal wieder ein SIV besuchen ;) Grüße an den Ossiacher See
@@infinityfumble Du brauchst kein SIV mehr. Einfach weiter so in Form bleiben und selber ueber Wasser trainieren. Ich schicke Dir die Wasserrettung raus, wenns is... (-:
@@xandimeschuh279 Ha, danke für das Lob, aber ich glaub da ist schon noch gut Luft nach oben bei den Schirmskills :> Und gut zu wissen, da komm ich dann wahrscheinlich notgedrungen drauf zurück hehe 🌊😬
Hey dude, really honest review of the situation…. Super respect 🫡…. Stay safe big man
Thanks, you too
Gosh, why do I only see collapses that come alongside with releasing brakes/Bs? Never see them without it. Any thoughts on this?
Well I guess a) when you release the brakes the pressure in the front of the canopy wil reduce, since air will flow back into the trailing edge of the canopy. When you brake agressivly on the brakes you can force air from the back towards the front, to make the front more collapse resistant. B) additional to a - when you release the brakes the glider will surge forward, especially those high D / CCC Gliders, this will reduce the AOA and again make it more prone for collapses. So if all of that comes together - less pressure in the canopy, small AOA and then you also get a wack on the wing from an bad leeside rotor - the result is what you can see in the video. At least thats how I understand it. If I´m wrong please somebody correct me.
@@infinityfumble Ofcourse, but is there any conclusion to be derived from this if empiric observations say there is a connection? For example letting go of a somewhat deep input slower or generally making more minimalistic inputs a la "bare minimum" instead of "spray and pray" or maybe mindfully expecting a collapse every time we release an input in murky air while looking up. That's whats keeping me awake at night.
Also I guess it is somewhat counter-intuitive to catch a collapse by a nice punch if you are just in the process of releasing brake pressure. Also, I'm pretty sure that I personally brake too much when I feel uncomfortable about the air. If it is really bad, I sometimes have told to myself: "come on, put your hands 1,5 cm more upward, it will be fine!" And then it actually felt way better.
@@thisisyol I did ask some experts to give their opinion on the video, waiting for the replys and will share once I get them. But in general Im just an intermediate pilot as well, so Im sure Im lacking a lot of knowledge here also.
@@infinityfumble I think the mistake, if you can call it that, especially after a 7 hour flight, is the intitial breaking on the right side (at 1.12). I think with the turbulence in this moment the wing had a small angle of attack like when you push the speedbar. If you pull the break in this moment you will collapse your glider. I think thats why it starts collapsing on the right side first. The release of the break is already after the collapse is starting. But the pilot kept cool and didnt over react, props to that. But if he says he is only an intermediate pilot than a EN-D Wing is probably not the right fit. I have the feeling most pilots fly wings that don't fit their skill level, but thats another issue.
Hey, super und vielen Dank für das Video. Ich finde es immer gut, wenn solche Videos geteilt werden, damit wir alle etwas lernen können. Deswegen: Wo war das? Woher kam der überregionale Wind? Wie hoch kam der Talwind an dem Tag - von welcher Seite? Danke!
Hi, das ist die Südseite vom Tristner im Zillertal. Wind kam aus NW bis Nord, also über den Gipfel drüber aus der Richtung wo ich den roten Pfeil eingezeichnet habe. Keine Ahnung wie hoch der Talwind an dem Tag ging. Der Berg ist aber etwas hinter dem Ahorn gelegen, der Talwind betrifft eher den Ahorn denke ich. Der Tristner ist aber auch super Markant und Spitz oben am Gipfel, das is so eine richtiger Zacken. Je markanter das Hindernis ist, desto heftiger sind auch die Leeverwirbelungen. Über einen recht flachen Bergrücken zieht der Wind bedeutend störungsfreier drüber. Da erklärt es der Ferdinand Vogel sehr gut mit Visualisierung. Der Tristner sieht so aus wie es bei ca. 1:45 gezeigt wird.
ua-cam.com/video/AxmIALBSZoU/v-deo.htmlsi=Y4uxPnFVyJQ1nb1G
How long from seeing the leading edge go to you hitting the brakes? You could work it out from the number of frames in the video
Good question, I did check it frame by frame and from me seeing it go to my reaction of banging the brakes it is exactly 1 second, so I guess that is actually not as bad as I thought, giving the flight time and my lack of hydration and food.
Your right hand seem to "hold" onto the riser. Its "harder" for the brain to let loose in those cases. I never grab or hold to the risers unless I am speeding and use B-Lines stearing.
How have you trained for that in last 2 years?
@@paraglidingSafety yes I did an SIV last year. Video is on the channel as well.
What helmet is that
lol i think i should put it infront of every video, because i get this question every time :>
Icaro Nero Hero in special edition colors. Think they only made a few back when it came out. Not available anymore sadly.
nice 1
I think you're a bit hard on yourself, you handled this quite nicely. I think more than 80% of Viewers would have died twisted wrapped in their lines if they had to Handle this and you get off with just a collapse!
Thanks :) But I hope the survival rate would be more then 20% 😅
@@infinityfumble there is a reason i am flying an Epsilon :-)
the last sentence sounds familiar LOL
😅
What helmet is this?
@@Airaddicted Icaro Nero Hero special colours.
@infinityfumble alter das Teil macht mich arm....
@@Airaddicted jupp, ich geh auch langsam nur noch für meine Ausrüstung arbeiten :D
@ service.dhv.de/db3/gebrauchtmarkt/anzeige/id/160735/from/merkliste da ist einer, ultra selten die dinger, vor allem in der special edition...allerdings in orange. Und der hat auch neu nur 300 gekostet und nicht 450 wie da steht. zumindest war meiner im outlet bei 300 meine ich.
@@infinityfumble danke!
Да уж, вот по этому, мой выбор "С"
Thanks for posting. Great recovery from a nasty situation!
This is worth checking out for 2 liner pilots, your incident does look like rotor but it does also coincides with your release of the brake, Ari discusses this in this video: ua-cam.com/video/2QU7CZO-Mew/v-deo.htmlsi=KHXoIX1R6kElpSrw
Thanks, and yeah I saw that video from Ari, very helpful as well. In this case im pretty sure it was a strong rotor wack. You can see my getting pulled in at the beginning, but yeah might be a combination of that and my hands being up at the moment the rotor hits.
that reaction was not that bad ! I was surprised that in this upward surge you got the front collapse, but if it's leeside.....
I guess when you would have waited with your reaction a second or more longer, then really bad stuff would have happend
But as is, well done 😏