Roger Penrose - Quantum Physics of Consciousness
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- Опубліковано 7 жов 2020
- Congratulations to Sir Roger Penrose for winning the 2020 Nobel Prize in Physics.
Are quantum events required for consciousness in a very special sense, far beyond the general sense that quantum events are part of all physical systems? What would it take for quantum events, on such a micro-scale, to be relevant for brain function, which operates at the much higher level of neurons and brain circuits? What would it mean?
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Sir Roger Penrose is a mathematical physicist, mathematician, philosopher of science, and Nobel Laureate in Physics. He is Emeritus Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics at the University of Oxford, an emeritus fellow of Wadham College, Oxford and an honorary fellow of St John's College, Cambridge, and of University College London (UCL). Penrose has made contributions to the mathematical physics of general relativity and cosmology. He has received several prizes and awards, including the 1988 Wolf Prize in Physics, which he shared with Stephen Hawking for the Penrose-Hawking singularity theorems, and one half of the 2020 Nobel Prize in Physics "for the discovery that black hole formation is a robust prediction of the general theory of relativity". The other half was awarded to Reinhard Genzel and Andrea Ghez.
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Roger Penrose is a Nobel price. He writes a book, which is a "failure", he admits himself. That lead him to another path, but he is still an outcast trying to prove his intuition.
What a great man !!! We need more of this kind of man : extreme intelligence and courage. He is seeking truth and not career.
I agree that this is a great man and a great thinker
One of the smartest people alive, and widely regarded as one of the greatest mathematicians and physicists. And about 35 years ago, he decided that we needed to explain consciousness. Thank god.
Wait, what is this? Two sage (old) men calmly discussing matters of importance to humanity, and they don’t even need a moderator to stop them interrupting? To think this is happening in my lifetime!
He is the moderator lol he is just that smart. He used to moderate alot of discussions
It's a sure sign of intelligence.
This used to be normal before Trump and his propaganda channel, Fox News
I mean, it's not a debate. Just a straightforward interview... which is refreshing nonetheless
@@GeorgeBrownIII What fact? The reason the original comment is relevant is because Fox News anti-intellectual propaganda is changing America's culture into one of incomplete thoughts, hatred, and division.
I'm grateful for the smart folks out there that can verbalize the stuff that keeps me up at night, but don't know the words to describe. Thank You.
Its called word smithing,smiting, words that ordinary people can give a crap about ,as well as to hide certain projects than create a new name,all intellectual human is taught by influences, intuition, resulting in information, or a skill? So everyone from a scientist, to a ball player,or Rockstar actors etc.are of a intellectual influences from outside the flesh we are covered in due in part we're spiritual being, so in the many dimensions of our existence there's spiritual beings that invade our space and give influences, intuition, information, through our thought process, the little voice in your ear ,expression comes to mind,so at 1st these thoughts are not of our own for they couldn't be especially when a thought comes in of something never heard of such as investors, that's how investors of an original invention get the ability to make anything, especially something thats as complex as a computer n now many other such things of manipulation of plants ,the sex change of humans,organ transplants all arive from the spiritual realm the evil wicked realm.
@@ronaldsliski9585 That doesn’t explain anything, it just moves the problem away to “spiritual beings” that control our thoughts. Then you might ask who is controlling the spiritual beings. Why can’t we explain the mind by studying the workings of the brain?
@@MelvinKoopmans well if you're not willing to go beyond the indoctrination from the educational program system ,and hearsay ,and try to have a more enlightened experience, you will always be just a deep ahead the ape!
@@MelvinKoopmans the mind is the dimensional intuitions, inspirations, influence = information, in which by our freewill = choices of the human experience! To have understanding that this dimension is a illusion of the life in the spiritual realm where we're to be reunited with our creator! This realm is a deception, distactraction from the actual reality of becoming a spiritual entity, awareness of a better existence. That's due in part of satan the one that seeks our destruction from becoming spiritual entity in relation to our creator!
@@ronaldsliski9585 And all this is based on what, exactly?
Congratulations sir.
Ultimately you have been awarded the #Nobel Prize in Physics this year for your ground breaking research on Black-hole which was long due since 1965. I'm so delighted.
Wishing your sound health.
Can't think of anyone whose lifetime achievements make them more worthy of that prize. Indeed, congratulation Prof. Penrose! -and well overdue at that.
My vote won't be counted, but think he'll fall into the Perlmutter/Schmidt/Riess Nobel category.
Anton Zielinger deserved it much more.
I can listen to him talk all day. I might only understand 2% of what he says, but I greatly enjoy it.
And I will explain to you that he isn't saying anything that is coherent in full sentences or thoughts and is bullshitting his way through the whole conversation. He states half of a thought and doesn't explain anything but brings up u; half anothe thought and just jeeps rambling and saying nothing. And the other person is doing about the same thing.
@@beauxr.benoit1374 how many nobel prizes have you won?
Just watch it 50 times and you will be at %100 👍
you're very optimistic about that 2%
He talks s**t. He knows no more about consciousness than you do.
I am a quantum biologist and I researched this topic a lot. I have Roger book "The New Mind of the Emperor" for many years. The field of quantum biology evolved tremendously last 10 years, we know the quantum effects control photosynthesis, control retinal perception, control bird magnito-orientation, but I still don't see any good evidence of quantum effects to have a strong role in the brain activity. Initially I thought that all the neuro-sinaptic networks opperate purely on classical level, but when we look deeper we see that for example long term memory is kept on genomic level and translating the electric information into gene-expression epigenetic modification we can easily imagine some quantum effects can take place. I bet that our mind opperate 90% classically, but not 100%.
The world quantum effects appears to vague since any chemical reaction is a quantum effect (recombination of orbitals on atoms making molecules , on Linus Pauling approach to explain Chemistry from Physics ). It is hard to see usual quantum effects of particles or systems of particles on our Brain . The point is that we try to understand culture through single brains . I think (and a big if... ) that most of our mental process are of cultural heritage and appears only as a collective effect when one individual interacts with others .Perhaps fractal -random media electrically charged STATISTICAL physics or quantum mechanical fractal physics (Those subject still do not exists !) would be more appropriated to understand the Brain (Its "circuitry ") than standard quantum mechanics .Perhaps new Physics like the one attempted in this paper will be the Physics of "Advanced" Biology .....cbpfindex.cbpf.br/publication_pdfs/044.2011_08_04_10_23_28.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0yltMQ-Sujz0p9Ru3A685OuFCbpLJjFej7WSYVyfOCT3rlWf-J00iBnpM Or cbpfindex.cbpf.br/publication_pdfs/nf04501.2011_05_09_11_05_36.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3jL1cttg82a_Pun0MgoLMb66u50SjysZYCwqoKKqJhTTjDden_r4ku7h4
@@luizbotelho1908 pretty interesting ideas here
@@mattm4340 I Think that the Mathematization of all fields of Biology will be much more sophisticated that ours wildest dreams for theories of elementary particles were in the begining of XX century ! .Specially our brain functioning theories !. In that field , Super computers (Monte Carlo Methods) will be our Arithmetic tables . After this Pandemic , I am sure that Biology will be the main science to be researched in this XXI century!.
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@@goertzpsychiatry9340 It appears somewhat interesting ...however I do not think that quantum mechanics of twenty century is going to shed some light on the human mind and its psychiatry disturbs .I have the personal opinion that very advanced and still unknown yet biochemistry is one of the keys for understanding and healing of mental illness as much as biochemistry is the key for usual diseases through medicines . One important point is that our mental process is purely biological and built through evolutionary transformations(Charles Darwin ) ,specially through Pattern Recognition.In this point and if (A BIG IF!) Feynman quantum computation could play some role . But I prefer that very Advanced Statistical Physics (Ising 3D model , Random Surfaces , Random Matrix Models , Condensed matter quantum theory -like Spin Glass , etc... ) is more probable to be the mathematical bases of AI and Human Brain functioning .And psychology is an extremely valuable tool since it allows to shed light on the Cultural Side of the mental illness bad adjustment to Social interaction (Carl Gustav Young -The man and its symbols ) .So advanced brain functioning biochemistry and advanced psychology appears to be the path on this subject.Not Pseudo Philosophy of Non relativistic Quantum Mechanics .Thanks by the attention
Eckhart Tolle said something like: "Consciousness doesn't exist
It doesn't stand out
It isn't a thing in the field of our perceptions
It has no form
Consciousness is being itself"
So humble, smart and funny Dr Penrose. Congratulations for the nobel prize👏
Agreed, however, it's got nothing to do with this discussion.
Humble, hardly, if we consider his books.
Funny, maybe on the quantum scale, in the big world Judah Friedlander is funny.
Smart, for sure, however, it's field specific.
Over the decades we've parted ways, worked out he's calling their plays
And that's how the truth gets mislaid.
@@jellyicecream3324 wtf man you must think you are very very smart
@@jararacavoadora5868 Just a hard determinist 😉I just don't know what I'm writing till it's written.
If I had any free will at all, you wouldn't be getting this reply.
Happy Solstice ☘️💚☘️
Consciousness has the potential to redefine literally everything. It’s the only thing we can personally be sure of. Everything else we see such as matter, physics, mathematics, space and time are only relative to the consciousness observing them.
What we perceive as consciousness defines everything else we perceive, therefore until we understand what consciousness is, we really can’t say with 100% certainty what anything else is.
Why couldn't Penrose say it that way? Because of you, I have a better understanding of the whole issue.
here comes professor penrose and says that in a certain condition where Schroedinger's cat can be dead and alive, in case that no one's watching ofcourse. In contrary, when conciousness observes the box in a certain point of time then the only options left are dead or alive. So we now learn that conciousness is time because time cant exist without conciousness. So we cannot experience no time but we know time is limited to conciousness expreience only.
Now, ask your self what happens to the conciousness when it dies. Soon a head ache appears because you are stuck, you will say i am all that is so i cant disappear, matter must move somewhere so now we understand the thing which you call "i" is not consist only matter. so all you say is fundamentally wrong.
Our subjective reality is just shadows on the cave wall dude
What are you saying? How can matter, physics, mathematics and space be a matter of perception? If anything, they’re the only things people of much different perceptions can agree on. Therefore, they’re universal, eternal and unchanging. It’s left upon humanity to discover their workings, but the workings themselves are there, waiting to be discovered.
@@VasilikiN Agreed, however all humans are using consciousness to perceive this. I’m certainly not saying this is incorrect from our perspective however what I’m saying is we only have one perspective that derives from our consciousness...
Penrose is a delightful conversationalist, quick-witted, humble, and a few steps ahead of the nimble interviewer.
How is he 89? He looks like he's 70
Time is relative
Indeed
Very true
I think he was younger in this interview
An active brain most likely slows ageing.
Random person says this.
The world: “crazy loony.”
Roger Penrose says it.
The world: “hmm. As I’ve long suspected.”
I think that's because of having the credibility, random dudes don't form theories on Black holes
@@unpopular_opinion8615 Don't disagree. Still funny though :)
“If you can’t explain it to a 6-year-old, you don’t understand it yourself,”...
One of Albert Einstein’s most famous phrases.
Awesome you said this. I have used this as a principle for both teaching and asking 'experts' questions.
but what if that 6 year old can explain it to you instead?🤔
@@helmetongrass1893 if he can, then possibly he got a supreme IQ, and if so, then that “child” represents an extreme value (statistical outlier). The former is beyond 3 units of the standard error of the mean, and therefor, Einstein’s quote won’t be applicable ;)
I agree that most of Robert's questions are difficult and there is no answer apart from some collection of empty words. But I can't teach a 6 year old or 16 year old about say mobile phone technology yet I have been working in it for two decades. Hence I don't understand it. It is stupid exaggeration from Einstein
@@kakhaval you can explain the concept behind it. A 6 old kid doesn't know how a car works (actually few people do) , but he/she could understand the utility of it and basic concepts.
I find Penrose to be very sympathetic. He is humble, honest or open, and intelligent.
congrats to roger penrose on 2020 nobel prize. much deserved. far reaching math too!!
Thanks mate
@daniel sebold why do you want to give up?
@daniel sebold thats a curious reply, Daniel. I went to Catholic school 2 yrs, 7th and 8th grades and learned piano at the convent.
Too hard meaning the concepts are are different or opposed?
@daniel sebold I completely understand and sympathize to what you said originally, Daniel.
St. Paul Minnesota. St. Paul Central H.S. 1960; U of M and U of A. Tucson 1964. Mathematics.( number theory just like Penrose etc. ,)
Roger Penrose has a new recent book out on "faith, ..plus other" I ordered it.
Hes smart and knew from Cambridge, a divinity type of college and others but hes atheist too , some of those who brought Ramanajuan to Cambridge
, in maybe pre 1920s. I met and sort of knew one of those three when I attended u of a in Tucson. So Penrose is on a new quest, consciousness, from about 1990 on and his collaborator, one Stuart
Hameroff, is from U of A, too. One small world. Roger's nobel prize I presume is on Black Holes with Steven Hawking. 1/2 nobel.
Its all far removed from our normal lives and thats what you might have meant. Congrats on your guitar 🎸 👏 accomplishments however I play piano from my Catholic beginnings in St. Paul. But worked in software engineering and I do have like Penrose science, but, unconventioal views; some patents in nanotechnology that fits his new theory so thats why I was commenting and did want him to enjoy his life remaining.
@@Eric123456355 ?
The way you have described the interaction of the micro tubes and the neurons would make me think this could be a biological transistor of sorts, where the gate is the micro tube. So now we have the quantum world effecting the classical world. Consciousness may be seated in the brain but it may ultimately exist outside in the quantum realm.
excellently put
What if the quantum realm is the afterlife?
@@wally4304 It is interesting how in quantum mechanics there is room for lots of the old philosophies. For example, perhaps what we think of as reality is actually from the thoughts of God.... Meaning our world is God's Existentialism. God thinks therefore I am....
@@wally4304 Exactly what I was thinking.
@name: password password: password that's a pretty absolute statement. Science is not absolute.come back to reality. Whatever that is.
He's more put together than world leaders in his 90s.
He's 89
@@JB_inks Close enough
hardly a compliment
That's fucked up, that man is in his mid 40's
Don't get me wrong as I love Penrose but most of kindergarten children are more put together than the world leaders
Even though it remains close to impossible to explain this to most, he sincerely does trie to communicate the essential and scientifically proven the best he can.
Standing out is the roughest path, only a few dare to take it.
That's tight, only few nobel warriors and every science fiction writer in existence dare to dream.
no worries there, he didn't explain how brain works...no need to put him on pedestal
A remarkable man.
Dear Robert I have one request from you. Please make the videos with subtitle. I regularly watch your every video and I really appreciate you. But some times It is difficult for me to catch every sentence because I am not English national. I am from Pakistan. I am sure that so many other non english native would also face the same problem like me. It would be easy for us to understand if there are subtitle. You are doing great job because things for which we need to read a big book but you clear it in just 15 to 20 minutes video. I love watching your the stuff you share and enjoy it by discussing with my friends.. Waiting for kind and positive response.
💚 From Syria
From Libya
The more our science's advance the farther we can see into the universe in which we live, as well as the universe that lives in us.
The fuck you talkin bout
Two clusters of microtubules interacting with each other by means of modulated vibrations in the air.
I read and finally called John Archibald Wheeler on the phone at his home in Austin in the 80s. I asked him about this issue and he said, "We need to understand Kant". True anecdote.
Thank you sooo much for sharing this work with us! Dr. Robert Lawrence, you rock!
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I wish i was smart enough to major in such an amazing subject like physics or neuropsychology. Sadly my microtubules weren't behaving too well at school. At least i can play the blues anyways! Where's my beer?
Neuroscience * not psychology
Drop the beer, grab the DMT.
Never too late to "wake up"
@@leovicious6992 what dmt will do ?
What i am thinking is that the the brain activity is not a mechanical, accumulation of each neurons activity individualy but the cloud *of electrons* that working on quantum level as a single event as a field of each individual electron affects others with its field and even affected backwardly by the posible result. Like a thunder that "knows" where its destination is but looking for the way.
basically the brain is a quantum computer
How does thunder have a destination? Its a noise...
@@BiasFreeTVi mean the electrical discharge
Thank you, I agree 100. Finally somebody got it in a nut shell. Bottom line.
This is the most interesting and original idea that I have heard for ages! Fantastic well done👍
Heard him on Joe Rogan say “ I’m old now and people don’t really pay attention to me”
They are now Professor Penrose
Thank you for your efforts to make these statements available. Vel formulated and easy to understand.
Vank you
There doesn't have to be a missing piece if some fundamental perspective of quantum physics is not entirely accurate. For example, the idea that state does not exist until it's observed is true in that observations can have some effect on that being observed, but things happen whether they're being observed or not and the fact that something is so sensitive to observation that we have not yet found a way to observe it without affecting it, does not mean it cannot be observed without being affected (in regards to that being observed anyhow).
Further, we were taught to think of particles as things and quantum physics likes to describe them as probabilities when there is every reason to think it's a field and as such, requires observations and math far more precise than we have at this time to accurately simulate it. Describing it as a wave may be close enough that it makes sense in context but will never allow us to fully understand until we can measure the actual energy, its location, and its behavior.
The idea that consciousness will be attributed to any one thing seems simply absurd considering consciousness cannot even be determined without utilizing a substantial number of the senses and systems in a number of individuals. I'd make an argument that consciousness doesn't even exist exclusively within one individual because such isolation would result in a lack of language which would prevent one from forming more complex thoughts. This is the very reason we teach our children language; so they can act like more than a human animal.
If complex interactions between two living beings are required to even determine consciousness then doesn't it stand to reason that consciousness does not exist on its own within an individual? If this is true, consciousness is as much breathing somebody else's CO2, or having to share the road, as is it is to have a single thought.
I think consciousness is the collective experience we share. we say someone is unconscious when they no longer respond to the world around them. If all this is true, our nerve signals are as much a part of our consciousness as our "thoughts" (our engaging of our speech centers with our frontal lobe, as well as our listening centers, all without engaging our speech muscles.)
I like this idea. It is kind of poetic
now at 92 y old. And still giving sharp interviews
Need for consciousness in quantum mechanics? The binary is resolved when it reacts with anything. That thing is usually not conscious. For example, you could have a camera inside the box with Schroedinger’s cat which would record whether it died or not.
The molecules around the cat’s mouth move in part according to the cat’s breath. Those things happen or don’t and that doesn’t depend on whether an observer observes them
What they are describing is the ability to produce a true other from which to choose. This is an aspect of what is called free will
Just as there's a quantum field for each and every fundamental particle (such as a quantum electron field for the electron, and an electron is "nothing more" that a zero-dimensional focalized excitation in the field), I cannot help but wonder if there's a quantum field for consciousness, and it's something like the cytoskeleton of neuronal microtubules - achieving a global state of coherence - and interacting with (ie, exciting or disturbing) the quantum field of consciousness, hence giving rise to what we know as consciousness and the inner experience of being. Fascinating discussion ...
The phenomenon of consciousness we are all aware of is evidence of the supernatural realm.....the next frontier for our brightest minds to explore , probably with mathematics. 😇
No, but the combination of said quantum fields form matter, matter becomes complex and emerges a consciousness. Quantum fields could never fundamentally form a complex entity.
@@gibsonflyingv2820 But what's the mechanism? - that's the mystery. Just as the Higgs field and the Higgs mechanism endows electrons and quarks the property of mass, I still cannot help believe that the interaction among QFs (in particular the QF of Consciousness) gives rise to the inner, subjective experience. Trouble is, this is all metaphysics, until there's observational evidence, I get it. Cheers.
Thank you Roger Penrose. I can, after listening x3, feel that you are discovering and feeling your way forward to what is unknown today. I hope you inspire equally intelligent people to take up your lead.
Could the measurement problem be a result of feedback from our own Consciousness feeding back into the loop and creating a whole separate wave function? Essentially we observe the output of a wave function in the physical realm and convert it into the energy realm via consciousness which then focuses our consciousness into a superposition of the original wave function...
Something non-computational goes in between from quantum to classical, if we have a quantum structures(micro tubules) in the brain that displaces tiny mass coherently, we can get this non-computational thing and call it consciousness.
Acc. to anirban the microtubles affect the activity of the synapses at large. There is this clock inside a clock inside a clock in our brain that extends even outside the brain.
It was necessary for Orch-or theory, because hemeroff and penrose needed global coherence between neurons in the brain to make this new non-computational physics to take place in the brain, and this non-computational transition from quantum(vibrations of microtu) to classical(consciousness).
So here consciousnesses doesn’t cause collapse but this new non-compu. physics causes consciousness.
Not something you might subscribe to. Because it doesn’t extend, cannot connect things, it just exist passively, just giving you the feeling of consciousness.
Note: anirban idea if you follow is also a bit stretch of his original idea, he went on to say that it’s the vibrations/frequency which exists at the base of reality. Physicality is nothing but frequency in itself. “”Me: yes it’s true that mass is frequency and frequency necessary for time..“” Gotta dig in.
Sir, firstly I would like to congratulate for winning Noble prize for Physics this year and secondly to know from you whether, consciousness is a form of energy or something else.
I personally realise that, the range of applicability of physics is only upto the mass and energy including light (e.m. waves)
Thank you very much.
Energy pulsing through a physical structure.
Energy pulsing through a physical structure.
Thank you very much for answering.
💚 From Syria... Consciousness Is pure Awareness, Intelligence and Love. It has Infinite power, potential and Energy... All the Universe Is it's manifestations and at the quantum level everything Is one so we are all One pure Consciousness and Love
@@DrShripalSharma I'm in the consciousness is the product of neurons based in Newtonian/Mawellian physics camp.
Parabéns a quem traduziu a conversa direitinho, e olha que o assunto não é bolinho.
Penrose is ph d supervisor of Asgher qadir who is my teacher, i am proud of this
Noor Ahmed Shaikh
I think I subscribe to the thought that all things are conscious in some way some what. I dont remember before I was born but I feel as if I was here anyway and it also plays in to my theory that all things exist infinitely. This is also a sort of Buddhist view too.
Bhagvad Gita .2.12 .TRANSLATION
Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
The Hameroff/Penrose theory of microtubules was shown to be implausible by biochemist Johnjoe McFadden & physicist Jim Khalili in their book Life On The Edge.
Glad to hear that this nonsense has been debunked already.
it is a good thing that scientists are looking for a deeper layer to just plain old chemical firings between synapses.
Whatever he is doing , I hope he is able to connect individuals with other individuals based on how the science works. Perhaps to do a measurement as one consciousness ...strength, perhaps, in such a way as to begin to further this knowledge. People are entangled. That is more important I think than superimposed. Humans can someday live forever with good scientists like him we may at least have a point in that direction.
I have a question about consciousness, is it continuous over time or quantified
If consciousness is not quantum mechanical in nature, then it is quantised along with the rest of the one physical universe that we are constrained within, to 1.616255(18)×10−35 m.
If quantum mechanical processes are indeed occurring in the brain, then this may not apply, as our consciousness may transcend the physical limitations of one specific universe.
Why don’t you study Indian science of mind, it’s already discussed for thousands of years, now west is talking about the same?
philosophy of sciences is the most important endeavor for the future years :how scientist in all times could have had these experiences of thoughts enough relevant to elaborate theories of mathematics , physics and quantum physics , etc
Interesting and worthwhile video.
I've ascribed to Penrose and Hammeroff's theory for some time now. I'm happy to see it being discussed here. I don't think it is given the credit it is due.
Perhaps the mid-ground between the new and old physics regarding consciousness is chemistry.
Chemistry is quantum mechanics
Hey guys, it’s Matt.
If understanding is the integration of information and its applicability, then conciousness would be quantized in that, you could develop discreet units of kinetics. the information changing the state and the change of the system suggests that it in fact integrates and applies information, however it is negligible in that those objects do not have the ability to apply intent to the environment and so, is negligibly conscious.
Sir Roger Penrose has touched upon imporatant subject like we have observable universe why cannot we have observable conciusness
Maybe treat consciousness as a dimension of space time and then feed it back through the model? Also, what if we treated unobserved waves as information that remains within its trackable changing states? The information would be able to maintain object permanence without being observed, and the act of observation would be less about collapsing the wave into particles, and more about projecting the the information into visible data during observation. Though the information may account for hypotheticals, it could have an absolute state during projection due to the optimal choice of data which would exist before any observation. The chosen data would be optimal because it best preserves its existence as it is being perceived by consciousness in the 4 remaining dimensions of space time. If the universe is “evolving” in a sense (as it expands into infinite variation), it could be using this method to prevent an overload of the existing system, and to self regulate object permanence. This self regulation could be a feature of consciousness as it acts upon the existing dimensions of space time. If the brain exists in all dimensions, individuality could very well be an illusion produced by the interactions between these dimensions as the brain attempts to make its calculations, consciousness would precede the brain, turning the brain into a focal lens that acts as a secondary clock, to which there may be more of across numerous layers of scale and complexity throughout reality. At the risk of anthropomorphism, the reason we might intuitively sense that the universe is alive is because we came from it, and we don’t exactly live in a vacuum. Awareness and intelligence may not be contingent on one another, and awareness may be measurable and a unitary dimension on its own.
Agreed. Our observation is via the physical dimension, converted to a dimension of energy via consciousness and then focused on the superposition of the output of the wave function originally being observed. A feedback loop that we call the observer effect.
@@someguyinsantaclara Of course you’re some guy in Santa Clara. I’m some girl in San Jose. Small world, my friend.
We are going into a realm of kantian philosophy here 😂 I wish more scientists like Penrose read Kant. I know he’s coming back very strongly in neuroscience. But I think that transcendental idealism is something that could be adopted into quantum physics and studied as a reference point.
If the measurement process is correct it means that when we perceive something, we are grasping it more deeply than our outward physical perceptions.
Thanks for insight.
In 50 years this will be like the voice of god, a recording of the most important man jump-starting the new world. Maybe we'll have Penrose shrines. :-) Anyhow I'm already setting up one.
Having an opinion is proof that consciousness exists. This is the perfect definition of consciousness.
No it isn’t. I hate when regular people try to do their own science. I can have an opinion but you can’t be certain that I am conscious. I have an opinion but I could just be an online chatbot. The only thing that’s proves consciousness is existence. Without consciousness nothing would exist
@@jackbradley4737 we are all regular people. We are composed of a collective intelligence of cell swarms. The fundamental unit of consciousness and how it arises is an open question. What we do know is that our higher consciousness somehow emerged from these cell swarms, with no known sudden demarcation point.
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@@jackbradley4737 As long as you are woke, one thing you know for sure is that consciousness exists. Everything else is up for debate, probably because that is the nature of free will.
😇😇😇😇😇
@@jackbradley4737 Other possible attempts to explain the wave particle duality, the mystery at the heart of quantum mechanics embodied by the original debate over Schrödingers Cat are 1) the objective collapse and 2) the superdeterminism postulates, in addition to the many worlds theory of which Penrose, Sabine and Kaku are the respective proponents.
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@@jackbradley4737 ...so the debate over the copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is all over the place, because of this thing called free will.
😉😊😇
it seems since I turned 36 (3 yrs. ago) years old, I am more impressed on the subject of the brain since I "played" my whole "first half" of my life.
Now it is time to see what I have "damaged" and learnt through the practice of psychedelics.
Is there any connections between Wigner's quantum mechanics simetrics and simetrical structures of microtubules that are suitable for quantum coherence?
The most chicken/egg discussion ever.
Still, only one right answer.
Given what we know about evolution, the first chicken came from an egg from an animal not quite chicken. So the egg did come first.
@@geraint8989 this wasn't what he was saying
@@iceybrice wasn't it?
@@geraint8989 where did the first animal come from, also an egg? Who created this egg? You were obtuse in answering the question, as it was apparent the question is not about specifically the chicken, but rather all living things.
The superposition egg
here is a suggestion to many comments regarding consciousness; i'm not a mind reader and i suspect many others are also having trouble making sense of what is being said. maybe ask a friend to proof read your comment, or let a day or two go by and proof read it again. thx.
Lol
Such fab questions asked. Thank you.
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Sir Penrose didn't say Anirban Banerjee, he said Anirban Bandopadhyay. That's class y'all. Anirban is another scientist whose research Sir Penrose mentioned in this conversation.
I can see an argument for consciousness being quantum as it postulates many future realities and wave collapse causing neurons to fire effectively rendering a frame.
"Wave collapse"? Wavefunction of what? Collapse at what measurement? And we already know how neurons fire, and it's completely fine being described classically.
I am conscious.
What does it mean to be conscious?
For one thing, it makes it quite a bit easier to keep a job in this extraordinarily complex society.
Thank you for sharing helpful and informative videos!
The complexities of existence can be studied in many ways.
God must like life.
We can get lost in the details of the formations.
Fascinating thought-provoking conversation thread.
Interesting conversation thankyou
What a trip. Quantum physics, my new lsd:)
I feel it too!
The brain has evolved to function on the quantum level.
The purpose of life is life. The purpose of the universe is the universe. They are one and the same. Focused on the appearance of world, call it matter if you will, one has belief this is primary knowledge. Focused on yourself or that with which all is known then subsequently divided and named. Names and divisions fall away leaving oneself. Infinity can't know limitations and never has. Belief not included. Unreal never will be real. All possibilities simultaneously co- exist or experience would be rigid and changeless. Infinity or yourself has capacity to live every eventuality of any and all given lives, in all possibilities or scenarios.
Quantum will be the way science explains Consciousness.
Coherence of great minds!
Consciousness causes quantum collapse or quantum effects give rise to consciousness.
Set C contains set Q and set Q contains set C.
Perhaps we are just looking at the same set of effects from different angles and calling it different things.
Perhaps
Can a thing be conscious without a self concept?
@@apollo4234124
Simpler, yes!
But doesn't the meaning at the core of the word 'conscious', essentially manifest in the concept of 'input' (and, necessarily, the effect of that on the self concept which lies at the center of the concept of 'being' (and of this topic))?
Fascinating conversation about the Hameroff-Penrose theory of consciousness. It is a shame the interviewer didn't formulate the primary question the theory addresses, which is: Why would reductive, objective, repetitive neurophysiological (biological) processes cause rich, subjective, phenomenological (non-biological) experiences (aka the 'hard problem'). Then the answer that: Qm energy phenomena in the microtubules bridge to classical neurophysiological events would make sense (and the search for neural correlates of consciousness [NCC] do not). It felt like the interviewer could not connect this 'energy' world to his classic neurophysiological one.
@@bennyskim Nonsense. You put the chicken before the egg. The microtubules and the quantum mechanics of life came first. Everything you think you just said is completely backwards, we are reverse engineering life, from simplest parts to the most complex. You understand the macro biology first, instead of the quantum biology. Cellular life begins in the quantum level, and all processes are built upon these quantum interactions. The neurons firing is a result of 4 billion years of evolution from the quantum to the macro. We are just beginning to understand that all life begins on a scale so small, it will be a long time before we have the technology to perform experiments.
@@bennyskim All of the encoded information you refer to, where is that stored in the neuron? The atoms inside of the neuron are in a state of superposition, they take on the state that the cell needs at any given time, in a neuron, the superposition can switch from binary 1 or 0, and the brain can interpret the signals as it switches. This is happening so quickly and so many times per second all across the brain, and we experience this as our consciousness.
@@MattSpoon07 go fnc do theory then its just a bullshit.
for the whole organism to perform an action, conscious perceptions of neuronal energy would need to be centrally organized (quantum time? through microtubules?) to organize action, which is transmitted back to the parts of brain and body through neuronal energy as conscious choice and cognitive behavior?
If you combine the OrchOR theory with the Holographic Universe principle, is the quantum coherence creating and projecting a personal reality? If there is no 'real' world out there, by the act of thinking (conscious and unconscious), are we constantly choosing different coherent states which we then perceive as our reality. Does that mean all of us are in our own solipsistic realities? Is this what free will actually is?
Quantum mechanics is needed to create the consciousness that is able to observe Schroedinger's cat to collapse the wave equation in quantum mechanics. Basically humans are a conduit for quantum mechanics to get things done because otherwise everything would be busy just postulating about possibilities and never actually getting around to doing anything.
Ohhhh what’s in the 📦 🐱
Love that analogy. Thank you 🙏
I'm not particularly into mathematics but it seems to me that either the cat is alive or the cat is dead. Just because I don't know is no reason to assume both or an average state or an infinitely rapid state oscillation. Superposition seems to me synonymous with ignorant devised so as to keep the grants a coming.
Or is the cat just a metaphor now for something completely different?
@@REDPUMPERNICKEL I'm not a physicist but I've watched a lot of videos (and took a few courses in college 30+ years ago). There's a lot to say about your comment:
1) Schroedinger is often quoted for his cat thought experiment as if he was proposing this but in fact he disagreed with the premise and used the concept to illustrate it's absurdity.
2) I did the same thing with my comment above, highlighting the absurdity of the argument, but it also seems to have a quirky narrative of its own.
3) The cat experiment is an illustration of the quantum world as our theories and observations purport to understand it.
4) It appears the concept of the quantum world is that the probability isn't an expression of ignorance on our part (like what cards your poker opponent is holding) but literally a "smearing" of reality across time and space. An electron isn't physically anywhere -- it is probabilistically smeared in an atom's orbit until you measure it at which point it "pops" into a definitive position. Hence Schroedinger's objection that taken to a logical macro scale, the cat's living status is "smeared" until you have a look.
@@darioinfini It was late, I was tired and your humour flew well over head, but now, thanks to morning coffee, ha ha.
1) Ahhhh.
2) Ditto.
3) It seems to me the deeper we dig the more we discover I'm poorly evolved to grasp the ultimate depths of Nature. But if in the digging we learn to achieve instantaneous orbit of Sirius I say, more power to the explorers.
4) Always fascinated by magnets I've long been perplexed by the nature of fields and when I encountered the curved space concept I knew I'd be permanently ignorant but entertained by thoughts like the one that suggests 'reality' is incomprehensibly solid and all that we know, all that we are, merely curious vibrations within it.
Congratulations to Sir Roger Penrose for his Nobel Prize in physics, and thank you Robert Kuhn for this timely and thought provoking discussion, discerning Sir Roger Penrose's view that "consciousness is a feature of physics" (froth on the wave) versus , what some propose, that consciousness is fundamental, where physics is a discovery of our consciousness, at the quantum physics level.
I only wish I had a definition of what consciousness is, both from Robert Kuhn and Sir Roger Penrose. I know we assume we all know what consciousness is, but until these two extremely bright gentlemen define it, it stays in the quantum state... lol
@@realitycheck1231 You must be bot, people try to explain what is all about, robots can only copy paste some code.
_"I only wish I had a definition of what consciousness is, both from Robert Kuhn and Sir Roger Penrose"_
Whatever the definition, it would have to be a definition that encompasses awareness or subjectivity/first-person perspective. That's essentially the fundamental basis of "consciousness". Otherwise how are you going to be conscious of anything if there's no subjective awareness?
@@Corteum I agree with with the reference point of the subjective perspective ( " minds eye" ), though we sense through the physical eyes/ears etc., it is the minds eye that is actually doing the "seeing/sensing". I personally feel that consciousness has a energy-sensory relationship. Although, I don't hear much discussion about the relationships of energy to consciousness amongst the experts. Quantum mechanically isn't it about energy transduction from wave to particle (collapse of the wave function) which causes the Universe to physically exist, and practically, gravity and quantum mechanics appear co-exist in a duality, as well as having a conscious mind with senses to differentiate the energies into qualia, mathematics and science, which are non-materialistic "things". However it doesn't mean they aren't forms of energy in conscious thought, embedded in quantum physics. Thanks for your comment!
@@tomkwake2503 Thank you for your reply, Tom.
In some perspectives, even the mind (_the capacity to have, experience, and perceive thoughts and feelings; the capacity to cognize information "internally"_) is considered secondary to conscious awareness. For what use is a mind if there's no subject to perceive its contents? :)
for quantum phenomenon, are microtubules somehow different than other structures in neuron? do they have a different orientation or other?
In the last example if you use deduction correctly you come to the conclusion that its all connected. You can deduct the weather on that planet before you observe it if you have enough data of its surroundings/solar system. Thats why this effect only seems to happen in experimental environments. The show outside has been running interconnectedly for billions of years now.
People confuse sight with consciousness. What does a blind physicist see? Does he too cause quantum decoherence? It all has to do with the tools of measurement and if it it extracts something out of that probabilistic wave function. If it does that WF collapses. It all depends on the tools.
Noise. We all can function because we rise above noise. Noise from all those sensory inputs. Same with the brain. Relevancy is what creates the conscious environment. And that digs into the experience of all that we have seen and heard. The memory part.
Understanding quantum effects in photosynthesis will help is understand this world between the classical and quantum.
Consciousness exists without the brain or body. But then again what do I know, just a thought!
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certainly classic physics cannot explain causation. i am with you on that. and certainly the NDE or OBE suggests consciousness is non-local.
Could quantum field(s) be coherent below the microtubule level as well, where probabilities in quantum field going into the future have subjective conscious awareness? Then in the microtubule, collapse / decoherence / measurement takes place, turning quantum probabilities into measured mathematical information, which information goes to neuron firing of energy spike / electrical signal?
I have a feeling this video will be viewed 50-100 years from now as an example of how humans first began to explain consciousness in a concrete manner
Nah, new fields of study need to be created to scratch the surface, I think humanity's best chance is a massive group of polymaths getting together for about 200 years, and we might get a chance.
His idea of consciousness needing quantum physics or vice versa is like a new version of the chicken or the egg question lol
the near death experience suggests consciousness IS fundamental.
Cameraman is making me feel nauseous, like I am seasick. Please stop moving.
You can just listen
But how do the microtubules get influenced? What causes them to "collapse" and how does one affect another to get entanglement? Asking because I have no idea......thanks.
What an awesome conversation.. to bad of the constantly panning camera though :( (and the car, and the truck backing up haha)
Deepak Chopra should do himself a favour and listen to Roger Penrose!
Maybe Roger should listen to Deepak?
@@economistfromhell4877 Now, what on Earth would a Nobel Prize winning scientific genius like Roger Penrose, have to learn from a pseudointellectual hack grifter like Deepak "Deepity" Chopra?
Absolutely nowt! Nil! Nadda!
NUFFIN'!
;)
@@terrypussypower why does he scare you so much? what makes you afraid of him? your comments here are defamatory and depending on your legal jurisdiction make you vulnerable to legal suits. You may wish to think through your anger - secondly I get the impression that he is better qualified than yourself and intellectually qualified see Wikipedia - "Chopra studied medicine in India before emigrating in 1970 to the United States, where he completed a residency in internal medicine and a fellowship in endocrinology. As a licensed physician, in 1980 he became chief of staff at the New England Memorial Hospital (NEMH).[8" His contribution to getting us 3 dimensional materialists to look inwards is considerable. I suggest that you meditate. Listen to your breathe and observe your thoughts/anger. See if you can do this for a minute? Bet you cant......
10:50 Rat running along the bushes in broad daylight.
You are very observant
It wasn't a rat it was an observer
Feds
I saw a gorilla.
He gleefully escaped.
Interesting to see that Penrose doesn’t actually buy the idea of multiverse while buying the idea of quantum effect on consciousness.
Amazing that 3 years later, 3 years after this very video and we’ve been able to prove micro tubules can in fact exist and express quantum effects in an environment such as the human brain, classically thought to be inhospitable to quantum effects. Penrose very well may be right.
Interesting. Penrose is a physicalist. Thinks consciousness derives from physical phenomena, not the other way around.
No one is perfect.
thats great...I am with Penrose
Just call it the soul as that's what it is
Could the microtubules in brain together form a quantum field where information interacts at quantum level? After information processed at quantum level, and perhaps even at reduced energy level, it returns to classic information through microtubules? Are the microtubules maintaining coherence of quantum information into the classic level?
What are microtubules made of, and how interact with quantum field / wave function?
Consciousness is yet poorly understood in science .It may be beyond the quantum level .
Do you mean a new approach, nor quantum, neither relativistic?
Because doesnt exist. They are biased ghost hunters
Or conscious may have nothing to do with the quantum realm and
instead arise entirely out of language
flitting about in encoded form as the frequencies of neurons.
Certainly every thought, encoded in words in these UA-cam comments,
lies one hundred percent in the realm of language.
And what is a word but a code for a meaning conditioned by sentence context, paragraphs, etc.
What is a sense organ but a means to convert encounters with the energy flux into neural encodings.
How fortunate that the brain,
which evolved to process sensory code (and generate survival oriented, neurally mediated, muscular responses),
made a very good home for language which was, as it turned out,
the ideal tool making it possible for small social groups of big apes like us
to eventually build civilizations of extraordinary complexity, populations in the billions
(in perfect obedience to the well known dictates of the evolution process).
I won't dismiss entirely the possibility that evolution may have enlisted quantum effects in the struggle for survival because of the following story...
There once was an AI researcher working with a genetic algorithm which achieved a result so exceedingly efficient that he had to launch a forensic effort to discover how it happened. The forensic report outlined how the purely software process had come to benefit from an unknown defect in the computer hardware on which the algorithm was running. That is to say, the purely software system running in an evolutionary paradigm was able to enlist help directly from the substrate.
Thus it's conceivable that evolution has harnessed some aspect of the quantum substrate which has bestowed a modicum of survival advantage.
@@Eric123456355 There is more to what the eye can see.
@@davidjadunath1262 of course more but it doesnt mean that the imagination is truth
according to scientist Robert lanza consciousness moves in to another universe after death
Your guy will never get a Nobel prize. But he might get a sainthood . And please ,don't call him scientist .
@@anatolyex Brain Salad Surgery ( yours )
@@anatolyex energy never dies
Might the information in neurons be turned into quantum waves by microtubules, then the quantum waves are further turned into energy? The energy experiences consciousness as mind, which mind directs the energy back into quantum waves in microtubule(s), and the quantum waves form information again in neuron(s)?
Consonance as to what brings it about is the key process in understanding consciousness. Gradations in the levels of consciousness at the quantum level and at gross levels are the dissimilarities that speak of it.
If only microtubules were the only source of it how do you explain the same in plants and also dead matter.