How to Choose Between a Hard or Soft Magic System w/ @James Tullos | Star Wars
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- Опубліковано 25 лип 2024
- Magic is a central defining feature of fantasy, but the way you build your system has four major effects on your story. Figure out what you need to know before choosing between a hard or soft magic system!
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Special thanks to @James Tullos! Go check out part 2 of this video on expansion and problem solving: • Hard vs Soft Magic sys...
#writingcommunity #magicsystems #writingtips #StarWars
-- Extended reading for other schools of thought --
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-Credits-
Script - Levi Johnson and James Tullos
Host - Levi Johnson
Video Editor - Parker Brown
Script Editor and Executive Producer - Jackson Dickert
-Video Chapters-
00:00 - Introduction
00:38 - Hard vs Soft Magic
02:41 - Theme and Wonder
05:15 - Audience
08:01 - Campfire Blaze Announcement
All of the Campfire Blaze closed beta keys have been redeemed! Keep an eye out for the open beta!
Excuse me Mr. Tullos/staff, I have a suggestion. Would it be possible in an update to make it able to put hyperlinks in the boxes? Would make it a lot easier to track sources and stuff.
I feel like you didn't leave any link about the issues, as you said you would.
@@Allan_Lugia You can find all of our writing tools at campfirewriting.com! No keys or anything necessary anymore.
Tullos brought me here! Thanks!
Welcome!
Don't remember who I heard say this but they said that a soft magic system is good to use as a metaphor and a hard magic system is good to use as a tool.
This is a great way to put it. I think it's also important that they maintain the purpose you set out to use for as well. When you take something that's a metaphor and use it as a tool things can get...messy lol
Albert , wow thank you! There is brilliance in this comment!
I think there are those who call him "Tim" (from Hello Future Me).
@@franxz4401 ah was that him!
Whos here from james?
yesh but I knew both before (meaning the channel)
Welcome!
I appreciate how you give due credit to everyone behind-the-scenes. It's easy for audiences to assume the "face" of a channel is the sole contributor and never realize how much of a group effort these videos actually are... and they are worth that effort. Thank you James, Parker, Jackson and of course Levi for another quality analysis.
Now you've got me wondering which way my own magic system leans on the hard-to-soft scale. It's largely based on real energy principles, but there is a spiritual side that is rife with metaphors. I guess it's somewhere in the middle, having many understood laws that remain consistent while still promising mysteries far beyond scientific comprehension.
Also a thing that I have heard Brandon Sanderson say is. That the portray of the magic system depends on the protagonist. So if the protagonist have not experience (much) magic then you should show your magic system as a softer one. But if the protagonist is a good/capable magic user then you can do a harder magic system. I’m not that was exactly what he said but some thing similar?
You can do that kind of feeling with hard magic to. The scene in the beach in Fullmetal Alchemist when Edward and Alphonse realize they are just a little part of a giant cicle is beautiful
The magic in the book I'm drafting is VERY plot orientated. I decided on what it would be based on pivotal pre-story (worldbuilding) elements. Sometimes, the answer is in the story itself. :)
great work, Levi n co! from the nerd who loves learning about magic systems
But the benefit of a hard magic system is that you understand the powers, so when a character needs to solve a problem you can find a solution at the same time as the protagonist. Which is very rewarding because then you feel a closer connection to the character. That is something that a soft magic system can’t achieve because it’s a gather distance in the knowledge, and it’s not as rewarding when a wizard say hookus pookus or something that does magic and solve the problem😉
Very true! Soft magic systems aren't very good at solving problems in a satisfying way.
People always use Fullmetal Alchemist as the epitome of the of the hard magic system. I used to do the same thing. Fullmetal Alchemist's alchemy is one of the softest magic systems I have ever seen, and it is impressive how it is able to trick you into thinking it's a hard (I mean, it fooled me for years). Everyone brings up equivalent exchange. But when doing alchemy, it isn't really a thing, like, at all. When Ed claps his hands and makes stone fist shoot out of the ground and attack someone, where is the exchange? What does he even do, actually? Apparently alchemy lets you reorganize matter and telekenetically move it around as you see fit... I guess. But nothing is given up to make that happen, no exchange. As far as I can tell, alchemy's rules are, unless you have seen the gate, you have to draw a alchemical circle (if you have seen the gate, just clap your hands), and then as long as you have the raw materials you want, you can... do... stuff... with them... alchemical stuff. Pretty much, alchemists will do whatever they want as long as they can justify it with science and/or pseudo-science. As long as you describe a chemical reaction afterwords, you can basically do what you want. Now don't get me wrong, I love Fullmetal Alchemist, and I think alchemy is a great, great, great, great magic system, it's just soft as hell.
You know this is a good point. Mistborn (or any Sanderson magic system) is probably a better example since they have clearer rules. Theoretically in FMA, you're supposed to have the correct materials to make something with alchemy, but they really don't pay a ton of attention to that detail save a couple of specific cases.
I wonder what the 100% hardest magic system out there is...
@@AroundTheCampfire afaik, Mistborn's system, channeling from Wheel of Time might be considered fairly high up on the Hardest Hard list (the rules are laid out at the start, they are adhered to throughout, and until Sanderson took the reins, there was very little power creep), and one that no one ever mentions but SHOULD, The Old Kingdom's system, particularly as regards to the Bells and powers of the Abhorsen. Laid out, hard, inflexible, and both the characters and the reader can work through problems with it.
Highly recommend that series.
What I'm working on though (likely never to see the light of day) is the hardest of hard systems. Tangible and Intangible, each with opposites and compliments, all take their specific toll on the caster. I've got charts and stuff! 😂
Soul of Ash The Old Kingdom is definitely an interesting case, because in-universe the Charter is meant to be the more technical system with stricter rules, but it ends up being the softer system for the story since it is never focused on or used to solve major problems in the plot (for the most part, at least).
The greater scope of Sorcery/Free Magic also remains somewhat softer, but it’s main application (Necromancy and the Bells) manages to both be harder and more thematic/atmospheric, by comparison.
HelloFutureMe did a series on magic systems and was really helpful
Nice placement on the codes again
Thanks! I tried to be a bit more sneaky lol
Hard magic = real life with extramundane elements retconned in, tends to have literal mechanisms: e. g. alchemy in Fullmetal Alchemist or allomancy in Mistborn
Soft magic = fantastic, metaphorical and maybe even ironic: e. g. the Force in Star Wars
So glad I snagged a beta access key! Going to be working on outlining an anthology story now!
Congrats 😁
Congrats, feeling foolish here, not able to get code to work.
@@davewilson13 Sorry about that! Keep an eye our for the open beta 🙂
I am writing with a hard magic system, but i am showing slowsly to create the sense of wonder, my advice is to let it flow ans do kot stop so often on rules of how it works, while the context of the story can do it better
I use both.
Many stories use a mix. The Name of the Wind and Game of Thrones have both kinds of systems!
For a favorite magic system, Feruchemy in Mistborn. Sure, Allomancy is cool and all, but Feruchemy has a lot of mundane use and untapped potential. It’s also interesting how each power is effectively balanced against itself and almost acts as two powers.
Feruchemy is a great one. It does a great job of being a pretty hard system while still evoking wonder, but that might be more Sazed's doing than the system itself!
Campfire Technology It gets particularly fun/interesting in the second trilogy when "twinborn" become a thing and it can vibe off Allomancy. The powers that come from the "greater" eight metals also add quite a lot of potential, particularly the "spiritual" ones (Connection, Fortune, Identity, and Investiture).
Alchemy in Full Metal Alchemist doesn’t have the same emotional effect?
Human Transmutation would like to have a word.
Are the keys gone? I got the code but it's not working.
Yep! All the codes are gone, but keep an eye out for the open beta coming soon!
@@AroundTheCampfire Just for fun, where are all the keys? I only found one so am clearly highly unobservant!
I found the same code twice during the video but when I try to enter it, I get the message that it's invalid. Is it because I'm too late to introduce it? Anyone else got this issue?
There are a couple more codes left! Make sure you're typing in all caps if you still haven't got it to work.
I tried over and over and still nothing. I even tried to replace the S with a 5. Caps all the time. Guess I'm just not lucky.
@@alexandra_ale Sorry the code didn't work out! Keep your eyes peeled for the open beta coming soon 👀
Avatar delivered on the soft magic wonder through the spirits in the universe instead of having it through the magic system directly
So wonder can come from other sources
"How to choose between Hard or Soft magic systems"
I'd like to do what's called a pro gamer move
***Has a magic system that's a combination of both***
This is my magic system, it’s called "stone craft" (Tolad language: L'ndith /ləndiθ/):
-Stone craft can have many potential uses, both necessary (transportation, medicine) and trivial (cosmetics, entertainment), but it is seldom used (usually only by elites and scholars) because it can be dangerous. Stone craft manifests itself through precious crystals, called "wizard stones" (or 'khridhvel’nt' /χriðvɛlənt/ in the Tolad /tɔlad/ language). Users summon Stone craft by properly reciting Tolad incantations while making physical contact with wizard stones. If used properly, Stone craft can help its users solve problems and give the user powers such as teleportation, healing, disguise, etc.
-Stone craft is mostly used by elites and scholars, as they have the resources to obtain wizard stones and learn incantations in Tolad. Although extremely rare, a handful of individuals (regardless of class) are predisposed by birth to contain quantities of wizard stones in their blood streams, which enables such individuals, called the "stone-blooded" (or 'l’ndrogh' /ləndrɔʁ), to use (or be used for) Tolad incantations without crystals.
-Natural wizard stones are a limited resource which is strictly guarded by henchmen who work for the elites. However, some scholars can secretly synthesize artificial wizard stones by using fragments of natural crystals to convert other matter into it. Elites consider this conversion theft, and make attempts to persecute scholars and the stone-blooded for their usage. Stone craft can become addictive if used multiple times during a short period. For incantations, unrounded vowels require two wizard stones (for height and backness) while rounded vowels require a third for roundedness; length and stress also warrant more. Voiceless consonants require two (for place and manner of articulation) with voice and ejectivity also warranting more. Users can be defeated by simply running out of it or using it incorrectly.
-After being used for an incantation, wizard stones quickly sublimate into an odorless, toxic gas which can cause temporary paralysis/vision impairment if inhaled (although this usually isn’t fatal and lasts on average temporarily for ten-15 minutes). Large scale sublimation can cause pollution and collateral damage to ecosystems. The stone-blooded are sought after and are particularly vulnerable to abduction/slavery for their natural abundance of wizard stones. Criminals are often punished with harmful incantations (in addition to the temporary paralysis/vision impairment). Wizard stones can be used to cure debilitating illnesses, but there is a price to pay; that illness must be transferred to another lifeform (usually to the aforementioned criminals). Anti-elitist possession of wizard stones is often severely punished by the elites, who fear class mobility from its usage by lower classes.
-Wizard stones were created naturally by “paramount comets” (or 'k’al’nv’t' /kʼalənvət/), which impacted and their supernatural minerals became embedded within the ground. Eons later, the Tol tribes settled throughout the rugged landscape which was shaped by craters from paramount comets. As the Tol civilization developed, farmers, paid laborers, slaves, and other workers participated in architecture projects and engineering endeavors, including construction, agriculture and landscaping. One day, according to legend, four Tol slaves were ordered by their master to explore a cave in search of fresh drinking water. One of them brought a torch so they could see through the darkness and deep within the cave, they discovered beautiful rock formations covered in crystals. After one if the slaves yelled in amazement, the unstable ceiling caved in and they were buried in an avalanche of crystals. They were wounded and crystal particles became imbued in their blood streams as a result. Only one of the slaves was still conscious afterwards and made cries for help. To his amazement, the stones surrounding his body sublimated and then he passed out from blood loss and the toxic fumes. Hours later, the four slaves regained consciousness in the cave and miraculously escaped from the pile of crystals. Their language, the Tolad language, was the first language ever uttered within the crystal’s vicinity, which triggered a mutation that only allowed the crystals understand Tolad. There may be undiscovered crystals that haven’t been exposed to Tolad and thus available for another language. They were physiologically altered by the crystals, it fused with their dna and several of their descendants became the stone-blooded from the wizard stone's dominant gene. After emerging from the cave, the four men used their new abilities to free themselves from slavery and become a quadrumvirate which would unite the Tol tribes beneath a federation. Their cooperation and even distribution of land to rule within the federation enabled an era of peace and prosperity for the Tol federation, which balkanized after their deaths. During the power vacuum, Tol elites usurped control of separate territories and became fiercely protective of the wizard stones, often warring with each other over the crystals. Scholars were employed by the elites to study the wizard stones so that elites could utilize their power.
-Even today, Stone craft is strictly guarded by the elites and their henchmen, although its existence is no secret. Most people among the lower classes could benefit from wizard stones but most wouldn’t dare try to obtain it from fear of severe punishments by the elites. Additionally, Tolad language resources are scarce beyond the elites’ mansions. Elites and scholars have established a wizard stone society to regulate what Tolad words and phrases can be used for incantations. These approved incantations are recorded in a text called “the canon” (or 't’avdru' /tʼavdru/), which is updated every year. Some rogue scholars illegally practice their own unapproved incantations. Although there is no particular set of clothing that distinguishes users, elites are (needless to say) the most well dressed of the classes and thus, fine linens and robes could possibly indicate usage. However, not all elites can be bothered to learn about wizard stones or how to use it. Additionally, scholars, who are the most familiar with wizard stones, are different from elites in that they generally prefer to stay away from attention. They often disguise themselves among the lower class, which also include some of the stone-blooded. The lack of incentive to procure wizard stones or resources to learn the Tolad language has made many lower class citizens indifferent to Stone craft.
tl;dr: rich guys use magic crystals to do stuff sometimes.
I'll be honest, it has some potential but it feels a little boring overall. Not trying to offend you! Maybe it was just the way you described it, and actually reading it in action would show it off better. Sorry!
@@r.s.4085 Thanks for your feedback, I always appreciate constructive criticism!
I feel this is less "how to choose between" and more "why to choose soft," since in both theme and audience you point out how a hard system is a detriment, giving zero credence to how it could be beneficial other than in audience if you're writing for a group that expects that.
Personally, I'd have liked to have seen equal representation of both sides rather than "hard system hard for filthy casuals and leaves no sense of wonder." But that's just my unsolicited £0.02 worth.
Definitely wasn't trying to hate on hard magic systems! I love a good hard magic system, but when James and I divvied up our topics, I guess I ended up getting ones that played to the strengths of soft magic.
@@AroundTheCampfire it's still a great video, just felt the title was a bit off the mark. And I've nothing against soft magic, I mean, one of my favorite series uses more soft than hard (Malazan--it's not totally soft, but it's not a totally hard system, either--highly recommended reading for anyone who wants to world build).
That said, I'm personally a hard magic guy. Gotta have consistency almost like the laws of physics to govern your world if you plan on spending loads of time in it. If it's a one off, it matters far less, unless there world itself is a character.
That's a video idea for you! Using the setting as a character! Examples: Serenity in Firefly was as much part of the crew as the cast. The Disc in Discworld (and on a smaller scale, the various locales therein), things of that nature.
Superhero movies are hard magic systems so it can work
I highly disagree with Full Metal Alchemist's magic system just being, "cool." The nature of equivalent exchange is a perfect showing of them where, "to gain something, you must give something up of equal value", and the story expands on this idea as it goes along. For instance, we learn that nothing is of equal value to a human soul, therefore nothing can be used to bring a soul back to the world. Ed and Al learn this (the hard way), and they refuse to kill because of it. There are of course plenty of other ways this theme is expanded upon using the magic system, so my point is that I'd reexamine FMA if I were you to gain a deeper perspective towards what it was trying to go for.
Disagree with FMA, the metaphor is very apparent and has emotional ties to the story. Being able to return something that is no longer there is something that is discreetly against the rules of the world. As scientists the characters often look at humans as chemical compositions without accounting for the rest, which is both what the protagonist does at the beginning and what most of the antagonists do throughout the series. It is also in some ways religious because the main character starts off rattling off atheistic lines while sitting in a church and part of his growth is acceptance of the unknowable.
It is a very integral part of the plot and something that the anime reinforces by saying alchemy's law of equivalent exchange at the beginning of every episode.
Yeah, I think I agree with you in retrospect. While alchemy does have a lot of hard elements to it, it also has some really soft elements that try to act like they're hard magic under the guise of "the law of equivalent exchange."
Why is it that when people make the connection of magic to "higher power" their minds go straight to religious assumptions?🤔
I don't think they HAVE to be religious. I said that for the Force example specifically because George Lucas has said that the Force is an amalgamation of a bunch of different world religions.
@@AroundTheCampfire Ok. Thanks for clarifying.👌
I think Dragon Ball is a lot closer to a soft magic system than a hard one
Yeah, that's fair. The power level numbers just gives the vibe of hard magic. It's input is soft, but it's output is hard since you can always kind of know what's happening based on the character's power levels.