Thank you for uploading this fantastic interview. I had the privilege of being at the conference and witnessing the interview which had a profound effect on anyone interested in psychotherapy but on the other hand was not comprehended by those more organically orientated clinicians. I have taught psychotherapy for many years and have often used this interview to illustrate aspects of technique as well as formulating psychotic symptoms.
0:24 *"... in order to protect the confidentiality of the subjects, this program should be shown only to professionals consisting of: physicians, dentists, psychologists, masters level mental health professionals or graduate students in accredited programs in the above fields."* Sure, no problem!
This is a powerful video, if you take the patience to watch it and be drawn into the simple message at its core, 'beyond words' and 'beyond the mind', both ideas R.D. Laing and the patient mention. A highlight is at 45:36 and for the next 3 minutes when Leila (the patient) herself disagrees with one of her doctors' opinions about her improvement and then he asks her to tell it from her point of view, after which she talks about R.D. Laing's way of engaging with her. Also the actual 'interview' between her and R.D. Laing at about 5:45 and continuing for 20 minutes is worthwhile too, especially in light of that later appraisal she gives of it, saying (at 48:07) "I think this guy would be a great psychotherapist because he knows how to tap into where other people's minds are at, not by just asking questions and trying to figure things out, like some..." She answers another question nicely at 52:06 too. At 54:08 she answers another question. It's great that she becomes more and more the focus of it, and kind of highlights the issue, seeing as that's exactly how it shoud be. Her experience, and engaging with it, kind of letting it happen, facilitating it, nurturing it, making it an ongoing reality, just seeing it even, being in the actual direct process of that, not making it a thing merely reflected on after the fact (which itself is what often makes the whole process, by that mere little shift, not about her experience, or not 'of' her experience, basically kind of shutting down her experience) and making it as much as possible actually her experience, accepted and not directed by the other (though, sadly, for both her and for the rest of us, they didn't let her finish answering that last question). "I hope you guys can learn sump'n".
Thank you for uploading this. I'm learning that psychotherapy can really only truly be gained through experience, but watching a master at work certainly doesn't hurt.
I often wonder, when I attend mental health services whether staff are there for me, or if I'm just there to keep them paid. With the decent staff eventually burning out and moving on.
R.D. Laing and the young woman - two people who in a few moments communicated much about communication. I shared Laing’s poem .the game’ with maximum security prisoners in the early 1970’s and communication improved. I recently used it in a discussion of need to focus on human dignity as a way out of our perpetual morass!
That is very interesting. I am not sure that it exists? Can you locate a public library record for it and send it to me at my website willhall.net. I can try to locate it through interlibrary loan.
Its interesting to see how natural their conversation goes and the talk about the Jesus and his teachings that are in contrary with Christian contemporary teachings. I would just wonder if the person can really act natural if he/she knows that he/she is being filmed, and therefore if you can conclude anything from watching it.
A lot of people were taken in by that thief...Guru ? Sorry, don't know the spelling of the thief's surname. I knew a lot of individual that lost their minds after getting involved in that con. Amazing how she warmed to Laing within minutes, and finally, bonding with him. The first questioner missed the method completely. The second...Well, he was... Wandering in the wilderness and wanted company.
There is a great deal of chicanery that goes on in homeless nodes. Shrinks were sent to People's Park adorned in button down short sleeve shirts with univac ties and clipboards. Acid Casualty chicks who were cute sat in a booth in the Heidelberg on Telegraph Ave. Mr Shrink would easily be seduced into signing them up for SSI. The mid 60s to the 70s spawned lots of charlatans like Dietrich of Synanon. Dietrich put a rattlesnake in some critics mailbox. Glaser of Starsky & Hutch fame played a journalist pursuing Dietrich.
Im wondering how this interview was aproved by an ethics committee, the first client seems unaware that she is being recorded, but even if she knew how would she consent? Watching the first 10 minutes a lot of psychotic symptoms and delusions are quite apparent, this person does not seem capable of giving informed consent. Even if she is undergoing compulsory treatment, the publishing of this material, be it only for the purposes of teaching or otherwise, seems highly questionnable.
Hi there @PS-yi7nz, I recommend you familiarize yourself with developments over the past 25 years in the field of disability rights and legal capacity, for example as recognized under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities. People diagnosed with psychosis such as myself retain legal capacity to give consent, and we are free to speak, present at conferences, and appear in videos: the presence of a psychosis diagnosis, and the opinion of an outside observor such as yourself, do not nulify those rights (and it is unclear how someone could arrive at a diagnosis by watching a video on UA-cam). Given that the presenters are in a large auditorium in front of an audience and openly recorded by obtrusive 1980s video equipment, I am not sure how you conclude that anyone is being deceived about the pubic recording or conference teaching context. The disclaimer at the beginning of the video, which requests that professionals be free to watch this video but not the public, is an antiquated throwback to a secretive paternalism dispensed with long ago, before the commonsene developments in disability rights and such patient led activism as the Hearing Voices Movement and peer specialists working in mental health settings. I hear that your concern comment is based on the desire to help and protect. But, as you will find if you read Laing's writing, the desire to help and protect is usually the very motivation for the worse of psychiatry's abuses -- including denying people freedom to speaks in public, questioning our ability to make our own decisions, and insisting that concerned professionals make decisions for us. It saddens me that appreciation for the courage, eloquence, vulnerability and wisdom demonstrated so strongly by the people in the video is nowhere evident in your concern, and that instead you focus on a presumed psychosis, elevate your opinion to expert clinical insight, and would want to silence people in the name of caring for them. Your mention of compulsory treatment as somehow an exception to your concern is especially troubling for me: patients under compulsory treatment are in my mind precisely people we should be /most/ listening to because they are the people most silenced and hidden away. Your comment reminds me once again how little the psychiatric industry has changed - and how Laing's urgent message, to see clients as full and equal human beings, still remains relevant today.
How would she consent!? WHO AMONG YOU IS QUALIFIED TO REMOVE HER RIGHT TO CONSENT? , what a sanctimonious load of condescenscion! I see obvious signs of seeing a different side of the world than is visible from the Ivory Tower, probably gained from repeated experiences of being invalidated for exercising and communicating independent thought rather than simply mechanistically repeating what "everyone else" says. From the current state of things, I would suggest that maybe it's time for "everyone else" to step down from their privileged majority high horse and LISTEN for a change FFS -as a Schizoid, she makes a lot more sense to me. "So we keep these people behind these walls, from society, their forgotten lives safe from the crowd. Through the doors come people like me- goodbye to them. They see a picture few of us see. They can't leave. You've left them here for me." -Queensrÿche "Out Of Mind" I would suggest that it might be instructive to listen to that song in total to understand in context what it says about "society's" role in the formation of "mental illness" , and maybe start seeing people who need help, instead of "patients". "It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society."-Jiddhu Krishnamurty
38:43 you seem to suffer from the same misapprehension as the man who asks your question at this time stamp. as the client says for herself: she knew it was the case that she was there to be recorded in session. i find it hard to imagine you watched even just the interview portion (before the q&a) in its entirety if you came out believing this woman to be so dangerously unrooted from reality that YOU are more qualified to determine consent than she herself ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I spent some months on "the streets" before moving through the homeless hostel system here in Scotland. And while the staff, generally, did their utmost amongst grotesque government cuts, I hated being squeezed into one big house with robbers, addicts, thieves, murderers, and general assholinitudinousness. But, I was in my early 50's a patiently bout up with it. Younger folk, or otherwise vulnerable folk are pretty FUCKED in that. Much like sending young folk to prison-like environments just intruduces them to even nastier forces than they've likely already known. It's toxic. But our governments insist on being so mean. The prison and homeless system is even more brutal, vengeful, and blatant. Anyone poor or not white who gets thrown into that? It just creates MORE OF IT. Despite still frying people with electricity. Then it's out of prison, or homeless hostels and straight back into the toxic environments rich people are happy to create for us. With no useful input into the process that is meaningful beyond TV and broadband access. There's a pattern here. Most of us know it. But no one really being genuinely allowed to address and WORK on it beyond more of the same dressed up again.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you for uploading this fantastic interview. I had the privilege of being at the conference and witnessing the interview which had a profound effect on anyone interested in psychotherapy but on the other hand was not comprehended by those more organically orientated clinicians. I have taught psychotherapy for many years and have often used this interview to illustrate aspects of technique as well as formulating psychotic symptoms.
31:23…… “If you’re mystified I
Can’t explain it to you”….. 👏🏼
Loved the attempt to verbalise the Transpersonal relationship
Bring this man back on this earth! 🙏♥️
0:24 *"... in order to protect the confidentiality of the subjects, this program should be shown only to professionals consisting of: physicians, dentists, psychologists, masters level mental health professionals or graduate students in accredited programs in the above fields."*
Sure, no problem!
Ronnie empathically brilliant. The Human touch.👌
This is a powerful video, if you take the patience to watch it and be drawn into the simple message at its core, 'beyond words' and 'beyond the mind', both ideas R.D. Laing and the patient mention. A highlight is at 45:36 and for the next 3 minutes when Leila (the patient) herself disagrees with one of her doctors' opinions about her improvement and then he asks her to tell it from her point of view, after which she talks about R.D. Laing's way of engaging with her. Also the actual 'interview' between her and R.D. Laing at about 5:45 and continuing for 20 minutes is worthwhile too, especially in light of that later appraisal she gives of it, saying (at 48:07) "I think this guy would be a great psychotherapist because he knows how to tap into where other people's minds are at, not by just asking questions and trying to figure things out, like some..." She answers another question nicely at 52:06 too. At 54:08 she answers another question. It's great that she becomes more and more the focus of it, and kind of highlights the issue, seeing as that's exactly how it shoud be. Her experience, and engaging with it, kind of letting it happen, facilitating it, nurturing it, making it an ongoing reality, just seeing it even, being in the actual direct process of that, not making it a thing merely reflected on after the fact (which itself is what often makes the whole process, by that mere little shift, not about her experience, or not 'of' her experience, basically kind of shutting down her experience) and making it as much as possible actually her experience, accepted and not directed by the other (though, sadly, for both her and for the rest of us, they didn't let her finish answering that last question). "I hope you guys can learn sump'n".
This is brilliant. Ronnie is brilliant and so is the lady.
I love seeing the transpersonal contribution! thank you Dr. r.d. Laing!
Amazing work by Dr. Laing! We need more people like him in psychotherapy
what did you find 'amazing' in this?
Thank you for uploading this. I'm learning that psychotherapy can really only truly be gained through experience, but watching a master at work certainly doesn't hurt.
He takes no prisoners does. I need to read more and watch more about him. The film was excellent with David Tennant
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
I often wonder, when I attend mental health services whether staff are there for me, or if I'm just there to keep them paid.
With the decent staff eventually burning out and moving on.
Thank you for posting this.
I volunteer at St. Vincent de Paul in Phoenix serving food every once in and while, interesting to hear them talk about it back then.
R.D. Laing and the young woman - two people who in a few moments communicated much about communication. I shared Laing’s poem .the game’ with maximum security prisoners in the early 1970’s and communication improved. I recently used it in a discussion of need to focus on human dignity as a way out of our perpetual morass!
Old Ronnie strikes again. Can't have people like that running around. They want you on meds. This is THE conspiracy.
Amazing resource, thank you so much
Exceptional, Unique, Far ahead of his and our time !
Fuck I have no college education, yet I completely understood what was going on.😳
Don't need a college education to be smart or wise. Sometimes college dumbs us down.
At 51:43 Salvador Minuchin?
Hi Will, do you have the second conversation Laing had with the guy (same conference)?
That is very interesting. I am not sure that it exists? Can you locate a public library record for it and send it to me at my website willhall.net. I can try to locate it through interlibrary loan.
One must still have chaos in onseself to be able to give birth to a dancing star.
A real real miracle.
kinda looked like the last super picture when she came out lol
what he said @12:20
When was this made?
It's a UA-cam issue that we rarely get info on when.
1985? date at intro
Its interesting to see how natural their conversation goes and the talk about the Jesus and his teachings that are in contrary with Christian contemporary teachings. I would just wonder if the person can really act natural if he/she knows that he/she is being filmed, and therefore if you can conclude anything from watching it.
Lol epic reply from @40:15
Laing is referring to the transpersonal realm.
A lot of people were taken in by that thief...Guru ?
Sorry, don't know the spelling of the thief's surname.
I knew a lot of individual that lost their minds after
getting involved in that con.
Amazing how she warmed to Laing within minutes, and finally,
bonding with him.
The first questioner missed the method completely.
The second...Well, he was...
Wandering in the wilderness and wanted company.
There is a great deal of chicanery that goes on in homeless nodes. Shrinks were sent to People's Park adorned in button down short sleeve shirts with univac ties and clipboards. Acid Casualty chicks who were cute sat in a booth in the Heidelberg on Telegraph Ave. Mr Shrink would easily be seduced into signing them up for SSI. The mid 60s to the 70s spawned lots of charlatans like Dietrich of Synanon. Dietrich put a rattlesnake in some critics mailbox. Glaser of Starsky & Hutch fame played a journalist pursuing Dietrich.
@17:00 he's playing her haha
Im wondering how this interview was aproved by an ethics committee, the first client seems unaware that she is being recorded, but even if she knew how would she consent?
Watching the first 10 minutes a lot of psychotic symptoms and delusions are quite apparent, this person does not seem capable of giving informed consent.
Even if she is undergoing compulsory treatment, the publishing of this material, be it only for the purposes of teaching or otherwise, seems highly questionnable.
Hi there @PS-yi7nz, I recommend you familiarize yourself with developments over the past 25 years in the field of disability rights and legal capacity, for example as recognized under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities. People diagnosed with psychosis such as myself retain legal capacity to give consent, and we are free to speak, present at conferences, and appear in videos: the presence of a psychosis diagnosis, and the opinion of an outside observor such as yourself, do not nulify those rights (and it is unclear how someone could arrive at a diagnosis by watching a video on UA-cam). Given that the presenters are in a large auditorium in front of an audience and openly recorded by obtrusive 1980s video equipment, I am not sure how you conclude that anyone is being deceived about the pubic recording or conference teaching context. The disclaimer at the beginning of the video, which requests that professionals be free to watch this video but not the public, is an antiquated throwback to a secretive paternalism dispensed with long ago, before the commonsene developments in disability rights and such patient led activism as the Hearing Voices Movement and peer specialists working in mental health settings. I hear that your concern comment is based on the desire to help and protect. But, as you will find if you read Laing's writing, the desire to help and protect is usually the very motivation for the worse of psychiatry's abuses -- including denying people freedom to speaks in public, questioning our ability to make our own decisions, and insisting that concerned professionals make decisions for us. It saddens me that appreciation for the courage, eloquence, vulnerability and wisdom demonstrated so strongly by the people in the video is nowhere evident in your concern, and that instead you focus on a presumed psychosis, elevate your opinion to expert clinical insight, and would want to silence people in the name of caring for them. Your mention of compulsory treatment as somehow an exception to your concern is especially troubling for me: patients under compulsory treatment are in my mind precisely people we should be /most/ listening to because they are the people most silenced and hidden away. Your comment reminds me once again how little the psychiatric industry has changed - and how Laing's urgent message, to see clients as full and equal human beings, still remains relevant today.
Good on you Will . @@WillHall
How would she consent!? WHO AMONG YOU IS QUALIFIED TO REMOVE HER RIGHT TO CONSENT? , what a sanctimonious load of condescenscion! I see obvious signs of seeing a different side of the world than is visible from the Ivory Tower, probably gained from repeated experiences of being invalidated for exercising and communicating independent thought rather than simply mechanistically repeating what "everyone else" says. From the current state of things, I would suggest that maybe it's time for "everyone else" to step down from their privileged majority high horse and LISTEN for a change FFS -as a Schizoid, she makes a lot more sense to me.
"So we keep these people behind these walls, from society,
their forgotten lives safe from the crowd.
Through the doors come people like me- goodbye to them.
They see a picture few of us see.
They can't leave.
You've left them here for me."
-Queensrÿche "Out Of Mind"
I would suggest that it might be instructive to listen to that song in total to understand in context what it says about "society's" role in the formation of "mental illness" , and maybe start seeing people who need help, instead of "patients".
"It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society."-Jiddhu Krishnamurty
You need to grasp relational ethics and you need to start questioning your own assumptions about ethics in medical practice.
38:43 you seem to suffer from the same misapprehension as the man who asks your question at this time stamp. as the client says for herself: she knew it was the case that she was there to be recorded in session.
i find it hard to imagine you watched even just the interview portion (before the q&a) in its entirety if you came out believing this woman to be so dangerously unrooted from reality that YOU are more qualified to determine consent than she herself ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Still a nasty habbit of objectification by calling people "patients", and not just fellow human beings, people.
I spent some months on "the streets" before moving through the homeless hostel system here in Scotland.
And while the staff, generally, did their utmost amongst grotesque government cuts, I hated being squeezed into one big house with robbers, addicts, thieves, murderers, and general assholinitudinousness.
But, I was in my early 50's a patiently bout up with it.
Younger folk, or otherwise vulnerable folk are pretty FUCKED in that.
Much like sending young folk to prison-like environments just intruduces them to even nastier forces than they've likely already known. It's toxic. But our governments insist on being so mean.
The prison and homeless system is even more brutal, vengeful, and blatant. Anyone poor or not white who gets thrown into that? It just creates MORE OF IT.
Despite still frying people with electricity.
Then it's out of prison, or homeless hostels and straight back into the toxic environments rich people are happy to create for us. With no useful input into the process that is meaningful beyond TV and broadband access.
There's a pattern here. Most of us know it.
But no one really being genuinely allowed to address and WORK on it beyond more of the same dressed up again.
I meant the prison and homeless system is ... even more blatant in America around halfway down that commentbthere.
Lols