@@nfitz11 IMSA has been...mostly out of it since the merge. It's biggest crimes at the moment are mildly eyebrow raising policies on manufacturer eligibility and it's newfound love for duplicate categories and putting Xs in the name.
The height of indycar's popularity was the '90s. There were five different chassis manufacturers five different engine suppliers and teams were allowed to modify aerodynamics within a set of rules. And this is back when carbon fiber was extremely expensive. This was very Formula One like and they still put on amazing races. It was not like going down to the traffic circle and watching cars go round and round. To get my interest back to that level this is what it would take. Just a thought.
Important to mention that this style of rear wing first appeared in the updated SF23 Superformula car in 2023, and will also feature in the new F3 car, so it might well be a Dallara design feature that they are incorporating into their cars, likely as a result of the experience they've had in the designs of the recent Haas F1 cars.
Hot Take: Indycar should ignore current design trends and should model the new chassis (plural!) after 1998-2001 CART with only modern safety advancements altering its design from how it looked back then. You don't make a splash by following trends. You make a splash by breaking them!
Thank you for being a voice for the fans David. I can't tell you how bad I wish Indycar would listen to you. Forward thinking is what Indycar needs if it wants to wow people and set itself apart from other series.
They need to take a page out of imsa GTP's playbook with a spec chassis, and mostly open development with the stuff bolted onto it. Spec tire would keep everyone in check.
I mean i agree but why come to indycar? there is less brand recognition in open wheel cars. these engines aren't going in street cars. why spend millions upon millions for a single application engine?
I don't believe in having multiple tire manufacturers in series that race on ovals. Look at the NASCAR tire wars eras. Lots of drivers getting injured due to super soft tires that blow too easily. Everything else? YES. but make the multiple manufacturers build a car they think will work best on that same tire.
@@McLeod917don't use manufacturers like that, have them badge it as a Honda but itl actually be built by Steve kinder, or something make it badges on top of engines built by gale banks or something
A few points that other commenters haven't considered: 1. Multiple chassis manufacturers may increase costs, which is why Dallara is the only supplier. 2. V10s: This isn't F1. V10s will likely be more expensive. 3. Related to previous two points, Indycar doesn't make the money necessary to encourage teams to spend the way they'd need to to make the previous two points into reality.
I know the aerokit era was a bit of a disaster, but I like the concept of it. Why not do something akin to GTP where you have Honda and Chevy each team up with a different chassis manufacturer instead of having them do it in house? And instead of hybrids, slap a big old NA V8/V10 in the back to distinguish yourself from GTP.
The X1 would be unraceable and prohibitively expensive. The same owners complaining that the hybrid is a n expensive new for the sake of new addition, are wanting an expensive new for the sake of new chassis. Just fix the issues with the DW12 and don't fix what isn't broken. Hinch says what's most important is the sound of the car and the people driving it. And I'm inclined to agree. F1 exploded in popularity not due to the cars, but because of the drivers, their inherent technical skill, and their clashing personalities.
The "Cars" part was probably more valid 10 or 20 years ago. Those Nick Oliveri-esque V10 and V8 motors were one of the main draw of F1 in those days.......
Every single owner, minus Ganassi, is completely and totally missing the point. If we're going the spec route, then first and foremost, the car HAS to race well. If you put out a bunch of X2010s, but they're all 4 seconds apart, what's the point. The racing has to be the primary focus behind only safety, looks are secondary.
18:50 this is my thought exactly. The early 2000's F1 V10s are remembered so fondly even though the cars were somewhat ugly because of the glorious sound. And to bring it to IndyCar, what do old timers always talk about? The old Novi and Offy engine sounds. It might sound silly, but if they focus on something that sounds good, it will get people's attention.
Too many corporate managers and accountants having a say and not the drivers/team owners. Indy have a wealth of experienced driving talent who know what makes exciting racing.
I just don't get. Penske is trying to keep the costs down for the teams by having a interative design so that all of the development in the current car isn't wasted. It looks similar but will be lighter and have stuff packaged internally better. If team are complaining about looks fine. full clean sheet and they can pay out the nose for it and they can complain about the money indycar is gonna make them spend. we can have 10 teams in the series max. we will loose all the stock piles of parts and investment in the dampers. so that's all just money wasted. I get wanting to have something new and fancy but they don't want to pay for it, they were already complaining about hybrid costs. A new chassis plus spare parts will cost astronomically more than now. The same point unfortunately applies to a new ICE. Hopefully with the shift away from electric only maybe we can get manufacturers to change their mind on that.
Just give us the CART era cars, 90s cars, IMO the best looking cars the series has ever had, they looked different from eachother and sounded fantastic
That'd probably be as close to "road relevant" design as any. Street cars are going more to small displacement turbo engines anyway. Hell, run them on pump gas
Literally just make a modern version of a 90’s Reynard. Sleek and stealthy. Sometimes that looks fast standing still. Indycar already has a visual identity. The only ones who forgot are the series and team owners.
We can't really rely a rather outdated "Cyber Formula"-type car like the Red Bull X-series for the next IndyCar car design tbh. If only Dallara adapted the new car from the current chassis, plus fixing the flaws of it, then fit it with an Inline 4 engine like in Super Formula series in Japan (maybe I4 Hybrid) then maybe they'll be off steam. I mean, come on. Indycars used to run 4-pots before. Remember the Offys?
I've been advocating for a formula built off of 2.0 I4 turbos for years. Every MFR has one. To that end, why wait for MFRs to enter? Allow the engines to be bought straight from the MFRs and let tuners or the teams themselves work on them, using any brand they can acquire. They'd be cheap and if these street racers can build them with 800 hp, I'm pretty sure Indycar teams can. Moreover, if BMW could build a WDC winning engine from a 318i block 40 years ago, the newer engines should be amazing platforms to build from.
As long as they’re loud and sound somewhat aggressive, I don’t think the fans will care about cylinder count too much. The v6’s already sound great imo
WTF is this timeline we're on? The 2026 F1 car is gonna look more like a Super Formula/IndyCar and now IndyCar wants a 2027 car that looks like a futuristic F1 car? Lost the Plot doesn't begin to explain the level of disillusionment some people in this sport seem to have... Edit* This is why Sportscar is gaining popularity so fast. Fans wanted to get back to the GTP/Group C era of having a LOT of cars on track with a LOT of manufacturers and WEC/IMSA made that happen in a BIG way with a lot of design freedom. F1 and even more so IndyCar are losing any semblance of a clue as to what the fan is looking for out of their discipline of the sport.
Kind of off topic, but I think electrification in motorsports is failing because they race in their own separate EV series rather than head-to-head against ICE cars.
so not a spec series. Should Indycar go the lmdh route? make it look how they want, but no more than x horsepower and x downforce? different chassis manufacturers to choose from?
no money to afford but they are all opening 100s of millions of dollar factories and hqs , dumping money into other series , having engineering wars with the other teams to get the best people from each other . the money is being spent , its not being spent of cars/engines because some teams have a vested interest in the status quo and remaining very successful in its confines.
I think they should make a Indy car look more like the car from 1997 Indy car but with a arrow screen but let the teams have a choice of the look of the cars but the cars have to be safer
Recommendation. Each Charter should send in their 2027 IndyCar concept/template to Penske and allow many designs to be molded together! Simple and everyone’s involved.
That's not how racecars work. Having different teams designing a car, you may as well just have them race those cars. If you start copy pasting components from one car, to another, you would likely end up with a worse performing car. Everything affects everything on a race car. Especially when talking about the witchcraft called aerodynamics.
With the outrageous cost of Motorsport these days I think the only option to not have a spec car is to implement BOP unless you are formula 1. I really hate to say it but BOP is probably the only way we will see different cars on the grid of IndyCar.
as long as they are very broad BOP , a V8 turbo = v8 N/A = v6 hybrid with specs to equalize etc etc . if we get into individual race performances and setup limits and micro management of the BOP for artificial racing , then no thanks.
I have said it for years, change the car design, have multiple chassis' manufactures, have multiple engine options and put some spice back into Indy car racing. Back in the 1970's I was a teen and loved Indy Car racing back then. There were Eagles, Penske's, Wildcats, McLarens, Lightnings, Coyote, Chaparral and at the end of the decade you had M.A.R.C.H. For the most part everyone ran a Ford Cosworth DFX engine at the end of the decade. Though some still ran, for a while a Drake-Offenhauser. To compete with the Cosworth, they were given more boost. You even had Longhorn Racing make a deal with Williams F1 and brought a Williams to Indy Car in the early 80's. It was a wild and wonderful time. Today, I keep trying but I just can't get excited about the racing. To me, it seems flat and unexciting. Everyone is going in a circle, and you only have three teams who can win, Ganassi, Andretti, and Penske. Back in the 70's you had Penske, Foyt, Patrick Racing, McLaren, and Dan Gurney's Eagles that could win on any weekend. We need to change the formula for Indy Cars. Let the teams design a car within a set of rules and set a cost cap for how much the chassis can cost. That will control the cost and bring in some differences. Do the same with the engine. We need more than two engine options and much more than one chassis. The cars are boring, the racing is boring, and even one of my favorite drivers is in the series, Scott McLaughlin, I just can't get excited about IndyCar today.
Take the 1995 rule book, adjust the crash standards and cockpit dimensions to present, shrink the fuel tank from 40 gallons to 26.5, and then the 2.4 V6 hybrid engine with intercooling. More downforce, more drag, more power.
I totally agree. Something need to be opened up in the regulations if IndyCar is going to be more compelling moving forward. F1, NASCAR, WEC, IMSA, all have variation between the cars. The only variation between the cars In IndyCar are the engines and dampers which are not even able to be appreciated by the fans because the are effectively hidden. Racing fans are engineering fans. Let there be innovation in the engineering of the cars and the true racing fans won't be able to stay away.
Trying to look "futuristic" is a fool's errand. When the future comes and looks different, you'll just look silly. If you want to spark excitement with the car's design, you should lean on the forms which have always sparked excitement in car designs. As cool as the Formula E car looks, the best-looking car in this video is the 499P right above David's head.
I don't think anybody in Indycar can see past the logos on the formula e car. They just see the logos and say "Look at the sponsors! We should do that! No need for original ideas or pushing boundaries when obviously copying someone else and being years late to the party is going to be so lucrative!"
If we look at this realistically... What else can Indycar do? Ganassi is not Ferrari, Penske is not Mercedes. The money will never be there to not be a spec chassis. The one strength Indycar has is close racing, and the DW12 privides that. Slap a bit of lipstick on it and keep going. That's the only option.
Imagine if they just put out an industry-standard RFP…and interested manufacturers came up with designs…and Indycar just picked the best one…or more than one…
Indy car need chasis competitors, not partners.. same with engines, they need competitors again not partners, in my opinion, as a long time fan, they need at least two tire manufacturers, two engine manufactures along with two chasis manufacturers, in order for a more open and exciting competition… keep up the good videos
The Formula E cars are super cool in person, I think they're way better looking than the DW12. I also agree about the sound of the engines. Wait until everyone hears the new Aston Martin IMSA / WEC HyperCar, they're dope!
“NO” to enclosed wheels ( enclosed wheels are for GTP/LMP/ NASCAR ) “NO” to complete enclosed cockpits. “NO” to wheel aerodynamic deflectors. NO, NO and NO. The F2 car looks quite nice. Remember, this is an OPEN WHEEL series, no “fenders” or the STUPID “Winglets” that the F1 cars have on the front wheels. I would mandate that on an Indycar, the ENTIRETY of ALL 4 WHEELS/ TIRES must be visible and free of deflectors / protrubances. The Newey X1 thing looks TERRIBLE….like something from a Nintendo game. And it looks strangely reminiscent of the STUPID “Can Am” cars of the 1980’s ( that were nothing more than “recycled” indycar chassis with fenders awkwardly tacked on to them. ) NO FENDERS allowed of any kind. Period. No “Formula E” style crap either. NO FENDERS allowed. Period. NO WHEEL COVERS period. I want to see ALL 4 WHEELS - from all directions- all the time. Period. Just to remind everyone involved THE MARMON WASP had NO FENDERS. The ideal / perfect Indycar was the 1998 Reynard 98i - 2.65 liter V8 - Single Turbo. ALL 4 WHEELS VISIBLE - ALL THE TIME. Pull out an old Reynard 98i chassis, put a safety windscreen/roll bar cage thing on it and that’s it. 2.65 V8 - Single turbo. Take the hybrid system and throw it in the dumpster. I think we need Lola, March, Reynard & Swift chassis, and engines from Honda, Toyota, Ford and GM.
Team owners liking the 15 year old red bull concept reminds me of team owners supporting the delta wing for the last indycar! As a still relatively young person back then I couldn't believe people thought that was a good idea in terms of looks and the thought of 27 delta wings still driving around today just feels totally laughable. I think we need to trust the team owners business sense more than there design/aestetic sense though. They are successful business owners they must know some stuff. If they think we need spec there must at least be some point to it. Although there is a lot to criticize, Indycar overall appears to have done pretty well in the past 5-10 years with this spec car. I was a hard-core fan in the fall of champ car, so I know what really bad is! Maybe an f2 based chassis, with some significant unique bodywork differences and more power is not that bad. Maybe some things opened up for development but then again that didn't work with the dw12. But im not sure we can just go back to 90s cart, realistically that wasn't sustainable anyway
Open the engine and hybrid system regulations (say they have to meet certain performance requirements but no specifications on how to get there) If you go with a spec chassis, have OEMs or individual teams design the body work. Ideally have some kind of competition with chassis but that’s not realistic. Or pay IMSA/WEC a finders fee or license the LMdH/LMH power train regulations and build a chassis from there. That gives you 10 potential engine manufacturers. And combined with body work designed by OEMs or the individual teams/groups of teams build body work
Ok, so I realise that this is an unpopular opinion, but the aerokit era of the DW12 worked, because there was a difference between the two engine suppliers.
Just watched Conor Daly's interview of Simon Pagenaud yesterday. They brought up that chassis, and how much they liked it before the windscreen and later the hybrid system f'd up the balance of the chassis. Personally I think a new chassis that is balanced and gives us good close racing should be top of the "desired" list.
PS RedBull X1 looks like a 70s video game car. UGGLY. I do know your heart in the right place BUT your as all over the map as Indycar is ….Other that completely open chassis /aero design which is not as cost effective as Indycar rolls these days best would be a body work that there is a window that can be modified in. There is not an unlimited number of designs for cars that WORK To design some to NOT look like F2 is stupid if F2 ish is best aero etc then that is not a bad place to start your more worried about marketing than car design
I don't care what it looks like, I only care how it can race. Can it increase the top end on the straights by 60+mph, can it nail the corners at 20+ mph faster than currently, can it cut through wind turbulence like a hot knife through butter?!?!
Remember when Ferrari wanted to build their own chassis for the Indy500? There's a parallel universe where Dallara, Ferrari, and McLaren are chassis suppliers and the series is filled with innovation and competition.
I think the IR18 update (pre-aeroscreen) was a step in the right direction as far as the car's design language needs to go. It kept itself separated from the cars of other open wheel series, and had a modern twist on a more classic and simple design. I am really curious to see what the newest rendering looks like, mostly because I am worried about the F2-style rear wing. That's a major weak point for me on the current F2 car, other than looking exactly as it is: a junior series car. In my opinion, the owners are missing the point. It doesn't need to look bold and futuristic, because chances are it's going to look dated in 10 years, like the X1. The car just needs to be distinct and easy on the eyes. If anything, the biggest change should be making that aeroscreen look like less of an afterthought. The problem is, the owners are probably closer to hitting the point than I am. I doubt my opinions reflect those of the sponsors and manufacturers wanting to write the big checks for the teams and the series.
They tried the open design with the aero-packages and everybody hated them. Plus, if there is something that teams can change, the big teams will spend ridiculous amounts of money to try and get an advatage, meanwhile, the smaller teams will be stuck with the basic components.
IMSA is getting more manufacturers in GTP because of looser designs. I think IndyCar is trying to cut costs but they are cutting off potential innovations with other manufacturers. People who want to innovate will spend money. If the current teams can’t afford it then maybe they shouldn’t own, but that’s why there’s a charter now, right?
How about semi spec? Anything within the center line of the wheels is spec. Outside of that let the engineers go. Also let them tweak the underbody. Make it exciting to see what teams can do. Just my opinion
As much as I hate BOP, I’ve recognized that the motorsports world no longer allows for a raw spending race any more. I just want an Indycar with BOP aero kits and open engines with a torque meter limit (like hypercar/LMDH/LMGT3)
I’m not a massive Indycar fan. I typically prefer to watch F1 and endurance racing as I tend to appreciate the technical side just as much as the sporting side, which I think in itself validates the argument that Indycar should probably open up chassis development to multiple manufacturers. A performance arms race will certainly make things more interesting. They just have to make sure they keep the money thing under control.
If IndyCar is committed to being spec for the rest of time, then they should look at the Chris Beatty Design (I believe he had a hand in the aero screen to some degree) Velocity concept car (you can look it up, it’s on his website) as the inspirational basis for the next chassis, even if the reality of bringing it to life would require huge technical compromise and changes. It looks modern, innovative and catches the eye. But IndyCar seems lost and confused as to what it’s purpose is, and - most importantly- who it is for. The RACER article didn’t surprise me in the slightest, and I suspect I’m not the only one.
they should allow a more open engine formula that aligns with the lmdh cars because that may encourage manufacturers to stick their engine in an indycar if they’re allowed to.
i think indycar should go the gtp/lmh route and have body styles that reflect the manufacturers design philosophy, the caddy gtp has he headlights of the cts and a big NA v8 engine and the lambo gtp looks like a lambo, etc etc. right now the honda and chevy indycars look the same. it would be cool if the hondas took design cues from acura and the chevy took design cues from corvette or whatever. if the honda indycar had a screaming turbo v8 and the chevy had a growling v8 it would appeal to fans and manufacturers.
It is totally nonsense that Indycar keeps sticking to a single chassis supplier, when even the feeder endurance series have at least 2 different chassis. And there are plenty of companies with skill and capabilities to do that (Dallaara, Tatuus, Ligier, Oreca, Lola, etc)
If gt sport and gt7 is ANYTHING to go off of the redbull x1 offers better racing on track than people give it credit for. Look at the numbers some of the gt world championship streams where doing. There was SERIOUS hype behind it.
Adopting the GTP engine formula is a good way to get more manufacturers involved in IndyCar.I don't know if a GTP chassis could be adapted to make an open-wheel car.
Be different than the current car. Be different than another series. Be modern. These should be the three criteria for a new car. Dallara cannot give you "different than other series" the Newey design has that problem too, it shows the world that there is nothing original in IndyCar, I think the team owner miss that point as well. Why would they tune in if IndyCar is just a copycat? It's very similar to being a feeder series. I also wouldn't mind a nostalgic concept similar to what F1 does with their 2026 car. To go back to the DNA of IndyCar, to show why it's worth tuning in, why it is different from everything else. Or even better than everything in one way or another. Like sound, yeah. I can't see why struggling teams (DCR) would agree to a development race, I think for them stability is needed, rather than the top teams (who can spend more) just driving away in terms of R&D.
I think we need to step back and look at what IndyCar wants to be. It wants to be a driver's series. Where the drivers are the stars, not the manufacturers. It also wants to be a series that is (relatively) accessible, unlike the massive budgets it requires to be competitive in F1. I think some of the things you're suggesting would just turn it into an American version of F1, and that's not necessarily a good thing. Also, I disagree with you about opening up the regulations to give smaller teams a better chance. The bigger teams with the bigger budgets will simply outspend the smaller teams on R&D. I'm not very knowledgeable about F1 but isn't this what we see happen there?
I don't like the X1 or the F2 wings, both look pretty bad. An Indycar shouldn't try to look crazy futuristic, just futuristic enough while maintaining the classic stylings. Also the current aeroscreen indycar looks awesome in my opinion. Its a no nonsense racecar. The X1 looks bad and probably wont race well and an Indycar looking like a junior series car when Indycar should be competing with F1. I am a new fan but I think the low nosed 1991ish cars look pretty cool if I had to pick. BUT SAFETY AND RACEABILITY COMES BEFORE LOOKS. (Also juke F1 as much as possible)
Personally I don't think X1 looks bad and could be revamped to fit modern indycar but I wouldn't mind something completely different either. Not an "updated" version of the current indycar
Do we have a choice? To deploy by 2027, the car has to be designed, tested, iterated, and manufactured for ALL of the charter teams. Indycar is behind 1 or 2 design iterations and name the charter Indycar teams that have a budget for prototype car development.
Indycar is not a feeder series nor a business in the sense that they want to provide a better product at a better price for the North American motorsport market. It is a club of very wealthy racers (Penske and Ganassi) that let us, outside of the club, peek into their races. That is why they are not interested in marketing anything related to the series, nor different chassis (God forbid they pick the wrong one!!) Or different tires. They just want the most economical way to scratch their racing itch. The other owners try to make money within the limits of the club's rules. That is the reason Mr Ganassi wants a safe and easy to operate car, that is why Penske commissioned Dallara a carryover "new" car. When they had tobacco and OEM money, they splurged. When that left, we got the current situation. Liberty Media and NASCAR, which are in the business of making money for its shareholders, are exactly the opposite, reinvesting money and looking for ways to win the market.
Dallara is the epitome of what is wrong with everything these days. They were handed tax breaks to create a monopoly, which has resulted in their doing the minimum. Aren't there even parts shortages for DW12? What are they doing with their sole source factory?
Adrian's lawyers will be paying close attention to these developments. 😂 Like, you're not supposed to say 'hey the best F1 car designer in the history of, ever, had some pretty handsome designs, let's just do that.' AI brain rot has infected these humans already, not even a hint of a new idea in their heads. There's no future for Indycar if this all they can come up with.
Easy fix to a new Indy Car, Run the 1990s Champ Cars. The best Indy cars to date, throw in new modern engines and leave the batteries in the starter boxes. Game ON !
Being so frustratingly close to the right answer but never quite getting there sums up American open wheel racing since 1996
That's all American racing, save safer barriers
@@nfitz11 IMSA has been...mostly out of it since the merge. It's biggest crimes at the moment are mildly eyebrow raising policies on manufacturer eligibility and it's newfound love for duplicate categories and putting Xs in the name.
The current car is nowhere near the right answer
always 9/10
The height of indycar's popularity was the '90s. There were five different chassis manufacturers five different engine suppliers and teams were allowed to modify aerodynamics within a set of rules. And this is back when carbon fiber was extremely expensive. This was very Formula One like and they still put on amazing races. It was not like going down to the traffic circle and watching cars go round and round. To get my interest back to that level this is what it would take. Just a thought.
More ovals would be nice too
lol go to the traffic circle. Yeah that’s pretty much what it is now a days
Important to mention that this style of rear wing first appeared in the updated SF23 Superformula car in 2023, and will also feature in the new F3 car, so it might well be a Dallara design feature that they are incorporating into their cars, likely as a result of the experience they've had in the designs of the recent Haas F1 cars.
Hot Take: Indycar should ignore current design trends and should model the new chassis (plural!) after 1998-2001 CART with only modern safety advancements altering its design from how it looked back then. You don't make a splash by following trends. You make a splash by breaking them!
But this is following an old trend id argue this would be a bad move, id say make something based on the concept but go way out there
I like that concept, but the cars should be shorter and narrower -- ie smaller and weigh less.
This. You win. Best looking cars by a long shot.
If you take an old indycar and add modern safety, you get a new indycar.
Thank you for being a voice for the fans David. I can't tell you how bad I wish Indycar would listen to you. Forward thinking is what Indycar needs if it wants to wow people and set itself apart from other series.
They need to take a page out of imsa GTP's playbook with a spec chassis, and mostly open development with the stuff bolted onto it. Spec tire would keep everyone in check.
GTP aren’t spec chassis but yeah
@eliteflite8395 gtp manufacturers have the choice of 4 chassis, so it's basically spec with extra steps
Follow what IMSA did with the GTP cars. That would give multiple manufacturers and chassis
The series would be better served with multiple constructors, engine suppliers and tire suppliers.
I mean i agree but why come to indycar? there is less brand recognition in open wheel cars. these engines aren't going in street cars. why spend millions upon millions for a single application engine?
I don't believe in having multiple tire manufacturers in series that race on ovals. Look at the NASCAR tire wars eras. Lots of drivers getting injured due to super soft tires that blow too easily. Everything else? YES. but make the multiple manufacturers build a car they think will work best on that same tire.
@@McLeod917don't use manufacturers like that, have them badge it as a Honda but itl actually be built by Steve kinder, or something make it badges on top of engines built by gale banks or something
Cool. Glad to see there is more than me on this idea.
@@FloridaManRacer I don't look at Nascar for anything. The days when Goodyear and Firestone were going at it in the 90s were awesome.
A few points that other commenters haven't considered:
1. Multiple chassis manufacturers may increase costs, which is why Dallara is the only supplier.
2. V10s: This isn't F1. V10s will likely be more expensive.
3. Related to previous two points, Indycar doesn't make the money necessary to encourage teams to spend the way they'd need to to make the previous two points into reality.
I know the aerokit era was a bit of a disaster, but I like the concept of it. Why not do something akin to GTP where you have Honda and Chevy each team up with a different chassis manufacturer instead of having them do it in house? And instead of hybrids, slap a big old NA V8/V10 in the back to distinguish yourself from GTP.
I prefer to be the one that makes the design others want to copy.
The X1 would be unraceable and prohibitively expensive. The same owners complaining that the hybrid is a n expensive new for the sake of new addition, are wanting an expensive new for the sake of new chassis. Just fix the issues with the DW12 and don't fix what isn't broken.
Hinch says what's most important is the sound of the car and the people driving it. And I'm inclined to agree. F1 exploded in popularity not due to the cars, but because of the drivers, their inherent technical skill, and their clashing personalities.
The "Cars" part was probably more valid 10 or 20 years ago. Those Nick Oliveri-esque V10 and V8 motors were one of the main draw of F1 in those days.......
Every single owner, minus Ganassi, is completely and totally missing the point. If we're going the spec route, then first and foremost, the car HAS to race well. If you put out a bunch of X2010s, but they're all 4 seconds apart, what's the point. The racing has to be the primary focus behind only safety, looks are secondary.
19:25 exactly David, lets hope they eventually understand this
Loud and fast
That’s what we want
18:50 this is my thought exactly. The early 2000's F1 V10s are remembered so fondly even though the cars were somewhat ugly because of the glorious sound. And to bring it to IndyCar, what do old timers always talk about? The old Novi and Offy engine sounds. It might sound silly, but if they focus on something that sounds good, it will get people's attention.
Exactly there’s nothing to talk about besides shocks and valving in indycar and no one even talks about that anyways…
Looks like that owner played too much Gran Turismo…..
That car was crazy fast.
That thumbnail is disturbing
Too many corporate managers and accountants having a say and not the drivers/team owners. Indy have a wealth of experienced driving talent who know what makes exciting racing.
I just don't get. Penske is trying to keep the costs down for the teams by having a interative design so that all of the development in the current car isn't wasted. It looks similar but will be lighter and have stuff packaged internally better.
If team are complaining about looks fine. full clean sheet and they can pay out the nose for it and they can complain about the money indycar is gonna make them spend. we can have 10 teams in the series max. we will loose all the stock piles of parts and investment in the dampers. so that's all just money wasted.
I get wanting to have something new and fancy but they don't want to pay for it, they were already complaining about hybrid costs. A new chassis plus spare parts will cost astronomically more than now.
The same point unfortunately applies to a new ICE. Hopefully with the shift away from electric only maybe we can get manufacturers to change their mind on that.
Finally, someone talking common sense.
Indycar went to Dallara, and said…
“Just take a little bit off the top…”
Accurate. It is the PenskeCar Club Series way.
I blame Formula E on not attracting fans because of the awful street circuits, not the car
Add terrible promotion and pay channels to that as well. Although that is true to IndyCar too, lol
They race a few blocks from me but I don’t go because the track is horrid
Just give us the CART era cars, 90s cars, IMO the best looking cars the series has ever had, they looked different from eachother and sounded fantastic
Just give us an Inline 4.. 1000cc screamer ..... like a Japanese sport bike. WAHHHHHHHH
F600 in the SCCA run a sports bike motor and they sound pretty cool
1600cc A4GE also screamed like a baby V8
@@RazorSharp75426you mean 4AGE?
That'd probably be as close to "road relevant" design as any. Street cars are going more to small displacement turbo engines anyway. Hell, run them on pump gas
Literally just make a modern version of a 90’s Reynard. Sleek and stealthy. Sometimes that looks fast standing still.
Indycar already has a visual identity. The only ones who forgot are the series and team owners.
We can't really rely a rather outdated "Cyber Formula"-type car like the Red Bull X-series for the next IndyCar car design tbh. If only Dallara adapted the new car from the current chassis, plus fixing the flaws of it, then fit it with an Inline 4 engine like in Super Formula series in Japan (maybe I4 Hybrid) then maybe they'll be off steam.
I mean, come on. Indycars used to run 4-pots before. Remember the Offys?
I've been advocating for a formula built off of 2.0 I4 turbos for years. Every MFR has one. To that end, why wait for MFRs to enter? Allow the engines to be bought straight from the MFRs and let tuners or the teams themselves work on them, using any brand they can acquire. They'd be cheap and if these street racers can build them with 800 hp, I'm pretty sure Indycar teams can. Moreover, if BMW could build a WDC winning engine from a 318i block 40 years ago, the newer engines should be amazing platforms to build from.
As long as they’re loud and sound somewhat aggressive, I don’t think the fans will care about cylinder count too much. The v6’s already sound great imo
The cars would have to go on a major diet to switch to a 4 cyl.
@@Spike-sk7ql the size of 4 cylinder engines would be also the part of it.
WTF is this timeline we're on? The 2026 F1 car is gonna look more like a Super Formula/IndyCar and now IndyCar wants a 2027 car that looks like a futuristic F1 car? Lost the Plot doesn't begin to explain the level of disillusionment some people in this sport seem to have... Edit* This is why Sportscar is gaining popularity so fast. Fans wanted to get back to the GTP/Group C era of having a LOT of cars on track with a LOT of manufacturers and WEC/IMSA made that happen in a BIG way with a lot of design freedom. F1 and even more so IndyCar are losing any semblance of a clue as to what the fan is looking for out of their discipline of the sport.
I think the X1 looks like trash tbh. I absolutely love the Ir-18
I doubt it looks terrible, just outdated by today's standards. Even that's showing how anything Gran Turismo series-related has fallen off for years.
Yes, I like it’s too. I think it is important to design something that looks Indy ish. Not a Dallara that looks like a formula ladder series car
Kind of off topic, but I think electrification in motorsports is failing because they race in their own separate EV series rather than head-to-head against ICE cars.
With Miller in Heaven Thank God we now have Land 👊🏁
I liked the Panoz DP01
Typical Indy car. This series will never be what it was in their hey day
so not a spec series. Should Indycar go the lmdh route? make it look how they want, but no more than x horsepower and x downforce? different chassis manufacturers to choose from?
Man, people dreaming about multi chassis constructors in Indycar with no money to afford this is just crazy.
no money to afford but they are all opening 100s of millions of dollar factories and hqs , dumping money into other series , having engineering wars with the other teams to get the best people from each other . the money is being spent , its not being spent of cars/engines because some teams have a vested interest in the status quo and remaining very successful in its confines.
go back to the days of CART do a modern design of what CART wouild look like if they were around it is a good idea.
Would that not just be an indycar?
@@nickz4993 look at cart before they were gone indycar needs new regs and a clean sheet of paper that is what they need no more spec.
Imagie if they offered Newey a gazillion dollars to design the next Indycar from scratch today
I think they should make a Indy car look more like the car from 1997 Indy car but with a arrow screen but let the teams have a choice of the look of the cars but the cars have to be safer
Recommendation. Each Charter should send in their 2027 IndyCar concept/template to Penske and allow many designs to be molded together! Simple and everyone’s involved.
That's not how racecars work. Having different teams designing a car, you may as well just have them race those cars. If you start copy pasting components from one car, to another, you would likely end up with a worse performing car. Everything affects everything on a race car. Especially when talking about the witchcraft called aerodynamics.
With the outrageous cost of Motorsport these days I think the only option to not have a spec car is to implement BOP unless you are formula 1. I really hate to say it but BOP is probably the only way we will see different cars on the grid of IndyCar.
as long as they are very broad BOP , a V8 turbo = v8 N/A = v6 hybrid with specs to equalize etc etc . if we get into individual race performances and setup limits and micro management of the BOP for artificial racing , then no thanks.
@AlistairMaxwell77 I agree. I love the diversity in IMSA gto cars
Obviously they shouldn't use the RedBull x2010... They should use the x2019
300mph and 8gs in the corners? Sign me up! 😂
I have said it for years, change the car design, have multiple chassis' manufactures, have multiple engine options and put some spice back into Indy car racing. Back in the 1970's I was a teen and loved Indy Car racing back then. There were Eagles, Penske's, Wildcats, McLarens, Lightnings, Coyote, Chaparral and at the end of the decade you had M.A.R.C.H. For the most part everyone ran a Ford Cosworth DFX engine at the end of the decade. Though some still ran, for a while a Drake-Offenhauser. To compete with the Cosworth, they were given more boost. You even had Longhorn Racing make a deal with Williams F1 and brought a Williams to Indy Car in the early 80's. It was a wild and wonderful time.
Today, I keep trying but I just can't get excited about the racing. To me, it seems flat and unexciting. Everyone is going in a circle, and you only have three teams who can win, Ganassi, Andretti, and Penske. Back in the 70's you had Penske, Foyt, Patrick Racing, McLaren, and Dan Gurney's Eagles that could win on any weekend. We need to change the formula for Indy Cars. Let the teams design a car within a set of rules and set a cost cap for how much the chassis can cost. That will control the cost and bring in some differences. Do the same with the engine. We need more than two engine options and much more than one chassis. The cars are boring, the racing is boring, and even one of my favorite drivers is in the series, Scott McLaughlin, I just can't get excited about IndyCar today.
Take the 1995 rule book, adjust the crash standards and cockpit dimensions to present, shrink the fuel tank from 40 gallons to 26.5, and then the 2.4 V6 hybrid engine with intercooling. More downforce, more drag, more power.
I totally agree. Something need to be opened up in the regulations if IndyCar is going to be more compelling moving forward. F1, NASCAR, WEC, IMSA, all have variation between the cars. The only variation between the cars In IndyCar are the engines and dampers which are not even able to be appreciated by the fans because the are effectively hidden. Racing fans are engineering fans. Let there be innovation in the engineering of the cars and the true racing fans won't be able to stay away.
Trying to look "futuristic" is a fool's errand. When the future comes and looks different, you'll just look silly. If you want to spark excitement with the car's design, you should lean on the forms which have always sparked excitement in car designs. As cool as the Formula E car looks, the best-looking car in this video is the 499P right above David's head.
The Delta Wing was a must have in IndyCar...disaster avoided...let's hope for a version of a car from the CART days!
I don't think anybody in Indycar can see past the logos on the formula e car. They just see the logos and say "Look at the sponsors! We should do that! No need for original ideas or pushing boundaries when obviously copying someone else and being years late to the party is going to be so lucrative!"
If we look at this realistically... What else can Indycar do? Ganassi is not Ferrari, Penske is not Mercedes. The money will never be there to not be a spec chassis. The one strength Indycar has is close racing, and the DW12 privides that. Slap a bit of lipstick on it and keep going. That's the only option.
Yeah David we need mcleraen Lola march anybody I totally agree no more spec cars
I feel like every time they get going in a good direction they somehow ruin all the progress with something stupid that nobody asked for.
Imagine if they just put out an industry-standard RFP…and interested manufacturers came up with designs…and Indycar just picked the best one…or more than one…
Indy car need chasis competitors, not partners.. same with engines, they need competitors again not partners, in my opinion, as a long time fan, they need at least two tire manufacturers, two engine manufactures along with two chasis manufacturers, in order for a more open and exciting competition… keep up the good videos
The Formula E cars are super cool in person, I think they're way better looking than the DW12. I also agree about the sound of the engines. Wait until everyone hears the new Aston Martin IMSA / WEC HyperCar, they're dope!
It would be unique if they tried something with fan cars. No other series in the world is doing it
Having Road Course front wings that look similar to the Lola B02/00 from the 2002-06 Champ Car seasons would be sweet
“NO” to enclosed wheels ( enclosed wheels are for GTP/LMP/ NASCAR ) “NO” to complete enclosed cockpits. “NO” to wheel aerodynamic deflectors. NO, NO and NO. The F2 car looks quite nice. Remember, this is an OPEN WHEEL series, no “fenders” or the STUPID “Winglets” that the F1 cars have on the front wheels. I would mandate that on an Indycar, the ENTIRETY of ALL 4 WHEELS/ TIRES must be visible and free of deflectors / protrubances. The Newey X1 thing looks TERRIBLE….like something from a Nintendo game. And it looks strangely reminiscent of the STUPID “Can Am” cars of the 1980’s ( that were nothing more than “recycled” indycar chassis with fenders awkwardly tacked on to them. ) NO FENDERS allowed of any kind. Period. No “Formula E” style crap either. NO FENDERS allowed. Period. NO WHEEL COVERS period. I want to see ALL 4 WHEELS - from all directions- all the time. Period. Just to remind everyone involved THE MARMON WASP had NO FENDERS. The ideal / perfect Indycar was the 1998 Reynard 98i - 2.65 liter V8 - Single Turbo. ALL 4 WHEELS VISIBLE - ALL THE TIME. Pull out an old Reynard 98i chassis, put a safety windscreen/roll bar cage thing on it and that’s it. 2.65 V8 - Single turbo. Take the hybrid system and throw it in the dumpster. I think we need Lola, March, Reynard & Swift chassis, and engines from Honda, Toyota, Ford and GM.
Teams should be sent a crate of current parts and be allowed to build any design while using only those parts. Pinewood Derby style.
Its not a coincidence that Champ car hasnt changed its chassis since 2008 and its been considered the best racing
Team owners liking the 15 year old red bull concept reminds me of team owners supporting the delta wing for the last indycar! As a still relatively young person back then I couldn't believe people thought that was a good idea in terms of looks and the thought of 27 delta wings still driving around today just feels totally laughable. I think we need to trust the team owners business sense more than there design/aestetic sense though. They are successful business owners they must know some stuff. If they think we need spec there must at least be some point to it. Although there is a lot to criticize, Indycar overall appears to have done pretty well in the past 5-10 years with this spec car. I was a hard-core fan in the fall of champ car, so I know what really bad is! Maybe an f2 based chassis, with some significant unique bodywork differences and more power is not that bad. Maybe some things opened up for development but then again that didn't work with the dw12. But im not sure we can just go back to 90s cart, realistically that wasn't sustainable anyway
Open the engine and hybrid system regulations (say they have to meet certain performance requirements but no specifications on how to get there)
If you go with a spec chassis, have OEMs or individual teams design the body work. Ideally have some kind of competition with chassis but that’s not realistic.
Or pay IMSA/WEC a finders fee or license the LMdH/LMH power train regulations and build a chassis from there. That gives you 10 potential engine manufacturers. And combined with body work designed by OEMs or the individual teams/groups of teams build body work
Maybe Penske Entertainment wants a F2 look alike car, so when they sell to Liberty it will be easy for F2 teams race in America
Ok, so I realise that this is an unpopular opinion, but the aerokit era of the DW12 worked, because there was a difference between the two engine suppliers.
Just watched Conor Daly's interview of Simon Pagenaud yesterday. They brought up that chassis, and how much they liked it before the windscreen and later the hybrid system f'd up the balance of the chassis. Personally I think a new chassis that is balanced and gives us good close racing should be top of the "desired" list.
that may be. that, however, does not excuse the fact that the aerokit DW12s are genuinely the most hideous cars that IndyCar has ever run.
PS RedBull X1 looks like a 70s video game car. UGGLY. I do know your heart in the right place BUT your as all over the map as Indycar is ….Other that completely open chassis /aero design which is not as cost effective as Indycar rolls these days best would be a body work that there is a window that can be modified in. There is not an unlimited number of designs for cars that WORK To design some to NOT look like F2 is stupid if F2 ish is best aero etc then that is not a bad place to start your more worried about marketing than car design
Reminds me of the whole Delta Wing saga.
I don't care what it looks like, I only care how it can race.
Can it increase the top end on the straights by 60+mph, can it nail the corners at 20+ mph faster than currently, can it cut through wind turbulence like a hot knife through butter?!?!
Remember when Ferrari wanted to build their own chassis for the Indy500? There's a parallel universe where Dallara, Ferrari, and McLaren are chassis suppliers and the series is filled with innovation and competition.
I think the IR18 update (pre-aeroscreen) was a step in the right direction as far as the car's design language needs to go. It kept itself separated from the cars of other open wheel series, and had a modern twist on a more classic and simple design. I am really curious to see what the newest rendering looks like, mostly because I am worried about the F2-style rear wing. That's a major weak point for me on the current F2 car, other than looking exactly as it is: a junior series car.
In my opinion, the owners are missing the point. It doesn't need to look bold and futuristic, because chances are it's going to look dated in 10 years, like the X1. The car just needs to be distinct and easy on the eyes. If anything, the biggest change should be making that aeroscreen look like less of an afterthought. The problem is, the owners are probably closer to hitting the point than I am. I doubt my opinions reflect those of the sponsors and manufacturers wanting to write the big checks for the teams and the series.
As Ganassi said, form should follow function. Make a good car for racing and then work on the looks.
They tried the open design with the aero-packages and everybody hated them. Plus, if there is something that teams can change, the big teams will spend ridiculous amounts of money to try and get an advatage, meanwhile, the smaller teams will be stuck with the basic components.
IMSA is getting more manufacturers in GTP because of looser designs. I think IndyCar is trying to cut costs but they are cutting off potential innovations with other manufacturers. People who want to innovate will spend money. If the current teams can’t afford it then maybe they shouldn’t own, but that’s why there’s a charter now, right?
How about semi spec? Anything within the center line of the wheels is spec. Outside of that let the engineers go. Also let them tweak the underbody. Make it exciting to see what teams can do. Just my opinion
When I was a kid growing up in the mid 70s, what I loved about watching the indy 500 was variety of all the cars and engines. I hate the new indy car
As much as I hate BOP, I’ve recognized that the motorsports world no longer allows for a raw spending race any more. I just want an Indycar with BOP aero kits and open engines with a torque meter limit (like hypercar/LMDH/LMGT3)
Time to go the IMSA route, open Indycar to a couple more chassis suppliers, then balance itout with BOP.
We can solve this dilemma with just two words:
Delta…Wing
your best show yet
Adrian Newey makes you angry. Lmao
I’m not a massive Indycar fan. I typically prefer to watch F1 and endurance racing as I tend to appreciate the technical side just as much as the sporting side, which I think in itself validates the argument that Indycar should probably open up chassis development to multiple manufacturers. A performance arms race will certainly make things more interesting. They just have to make sure they keep the money thing under control.
Gt6 actually had a toned down version with 700 ish hp and no fan on the bottom, it looked the same but was far more realistic
If IndyCar is committed to being spec for the rest of time, then they should look at the Chris Beatty Design (I believe he had a hand in the aero screen to some degree) Velocity concept car (you can look it up, it’s on his website) as the inspirational basis for the next chassis, even if the reality of bringing it to life would require huge technical compromise and changes.
It looks modern, innovative and catches the eye.
But IndyCar seems lost and confused as to what it’s purpose is, and - most importantly- who it is for.
The RACER article didn’t surprise me in the slightest, and I suspect I’m not the only one.
they should allow a more open engine formula that aligns with the lmdh cars because that may encourage manufacturers to stick their engine in an indycar if they’re allowed to.
V10....... 100% would bring fans
A high reving na v6 or v8 is fine with me!
Loud and fast
That’s what we want
f1 IS 10 high tech companies that specializing in building race cars. AOWR has forgotten how to do it.
i think indycar should go the gtp/lmh route and have body styles that reflect the manufacturers design philosophy, the caddy gtp has he headlights of the cts and a big NA v8 engine and the lambo gtp looks like a lambo, etc etc. right now the honda and chevy indycars look the same. it would be cool if the hondas took design cues from acura and the chevy took design cues from corvette or whatever. if the honda indycar had a screaming turbo v8 and the chevy had a growling v8 it would appeal to fans and manufacturers.
It is totally nonsense that Indycar keeps sticking to a single chassis supplier, when even the feeder endurance series have at least 2 different chassis. And there are plenty of companies with skill and capabilities to do that (Dallaara, Tatuus, Ligier, Oreca, Lola, etc)
If gt sport and gt7 is ANYTHING to go off of the redbull x1 offers better racing on track than people give it credit for. Look at the numbers some of the gt world championship streams where doing. There was SERIOUS hype behind it.
Adopting the GTP engine formula is a good way to get more manufacturers involved in IndyCar.I don't know if a GTP chassis could be adapted to make an open-wheel car.
i doubt you could make an open wheel car from a GTP chassis, but that kind of engine formula would be a good idea, i think.
Be different than the current car. Be different than another series. Be modern. These should be the three criteria for a new car. Dallara cannot give you "different than other series" the Newey design has that problem too, it shows the world that there is nothing original in IndyCar, I think the team owner miss that point as well. Why would they tune in if IndyCar is just a copycat? It's very similar to being a feeder series.
I also wouldn't mind a nostalgic concept similar to what F1 does with their 2026 car. To go back to the DNA of IndyCar, to show why it's worth tuning in, why it is different from everything else. Or even better than everything in one way or another. Like sound, yeah.
I can't see why struggling teams (DCR) would agree to a development race, I think for them stability is needed, rather than the top teams (who can spend more) just driving away in terms of R&D.
Flat karts were running 9gs at the qm track in Maumee OH this year
Was kinda worried about some texas cart reinactments
I think we need to step back and look at what IndyCar wants to be. It wants to be a driver's series. Where the drivers are the stars, not the manufacturers. It also wants to be a series that is (relatively) accessible, unlike the massive budgets it requires to be competitive in F1. I think some of the things you're suggesting would just turn it into an American version of F1, and that's not necessarily a good thing.
Also, I disagree with you about opening up the regulations to give smaller teams a better chance. The bigger teams with the bigger budgets will simply outspend the smaller teams on R&D. I'm not very knowledgeable about F1 but isn't this what we see happen there?
I don't like the X1 or the F2 wings, both look pretty bad. An Indycar shouldn't try to look crazy futuristic, just futuristic enough while maintaining the classic stylings. Also the current aeroscreen indycar looks awesome in my opinion. Its a no nonsense racecar. The X1 looks bad and probably wont race well and an Indycar looking like a junior series car when Indycar should be competing with F1. I am a new fan but I think the low nosed 1991ish cars look pretty cool if I had to pick. BUT SAFETY AND RACEABILITY COMES BEFORE LOOKS. (Also juke F1 as much as possible)
Personally I don't think X1 looks bad and could be revamped to fit modern indycar but I wouldn't mind something completely different either. Not an "updated" version of the current indycar
Do we have a choice?
To deploy by 2027, the car has to be designed, tested, iterated, and manufactured for ALL of the charter teams. Indycar is behind 1 or 2 design iterations and name the charter Indycar teams that have a budget for prototype car development.
Indycar is not a feeder series nor a business in the sense that they want to provide a better product at a better price for the North American motorsport market. It is a club of very wealthy racers (Penske and Ganassi) that let us, outside of the club, peek into their races. That is why they are not interested in marketing anything related to the series, nor different chassis (God forbid they pick the wrong one!!) Or different tires. They just want the most economical way to scratch their racing itch. The other owners try to make money within the limits of the club's rules. That is the reason Mr Ganassi wants a safe and easy to operate car, that is why Penske commissioned Dallara a carryover "new" car. When they had tobacco and OEM money, they splurged. When that left, we got the current situation. Liberty Media and NASCAR, which are in the business of making money for its shareholders, are exactly the opposite, reinvesting money and looking for ways to win the market.
Super lightweight, different engines and engine layouts between manufacturers, very low downforce, no active aero. Keep it simple but high performance
Dallara is the epitome of what is wrong with everything these days. They were handed tax breaks to create a monopoly, which has resulted in their doing the minimum. Aren't there even parts shortages for DW12? What are they doing with their sole source factory?
I see that much opinion is based on looks well as physics doesn't change with time you know I understand styling is different
Adrian's lawyers will be paying close attention to these developments. 😂 Like, you're not supposed to say 'hey the best F1 car designer in the history of, ever, had some pretty handsome designs, let's just do that.'
AI brain rot has infected these humans already, not even a hint of a new idea in their heads. There's no future for Indycar if this all they can come up with.
Easy fix to a new Indy Car, Run the 1990s Champ Cars. The best Indy cars to date, throw in new modern engines and leave the batteries in the starter boxes. Game ON !
23:31 literally Nascar rn