Definitely belongs in the hall. Best pitcher in baseball hands-down for 3-4 years straight. No-one even came close at that time period. Is he a first ballot guy? Probably not, but the fact he fell off on his first year is a problem the era committee will have to fix one day, just as soon as they actually nominate Kenny Lofton.
@@Might-l5mIf sandy koufax deserves it, Johan does. He got scammed out of a cy young award (his third) back in 200(3)? Losing it to Bartolo Colon only because Bartolo’s team was better. Definite sandy koufax type story of a derailed, yet dominant, career.
@@Might-l5m The problem is that we can't even have that debate because the Hall is so messed up in their process, guys like Santana, Kenny Lofton, Jim Edmonds, etc. are all gone before they get an argument. Anyone with 50+ WAR deserves to be looked at seriously, I'd even say anyone with 40+ WAR shouldn't be automatically ignored, especially if they're historically important such as a great postseason history and accolades. I can see why some would say he's not a HOF'er, like I said, he's not a first ballot guy. But the fact he couldn't even get a serious consideration is so wrong. Is Mark Buehrle that much better than Santana? Andy Petite? They both have been argued for and against for years now, but not Santana. That's proof there's something wrong with the process.
Loved watching johan pitch with that devastating changeup as a Mets fan growing up. Even if his no hitter had a bit of an asterisk to it I’m so glad he was the one who got it done for a franchise that never had one.
Kind of a poetic no-hitter. One of the potential all time greats who fell down on his luck with injuries, but came back to throw a no-hitter for one of the most rollercoaster-ish franchises in sports.
Dude had bout the NASTIEST change-up I've ever seen. Right up there with Bert Blyleven's slider, a pitcher Santana once bet against. The bet was that if Santana pitched a complete-game shutout in the next game against the White Sox, Blyleven would have to get his head shaved. The haircut happened three days later.
Generational talent. Shame on baseball and the writers for their mismanagement of the hall of fame. Our historical national pastime's hall of fame is irrelevant today.
Though I was too young to fully appreciate Santana's tenure in Minnesota, he was one of the players that made those early 2000s Twins so watchable and gave hope to the fans even at the dawn of the 0-20 streak. I wish you'd mentioned, even briefly, how many Venezuelan pitchers have cited Santana as a hero and an inspiration. One of those Venezuelan pitchers who watched Santana growing up was current Twins ace Pablo Lopez, who helped break the streak that Santana had to suffer through; he wore a Santana jersey to Target Field before the game.
I remember those years as a Tigers fan. He was truly unbelievable when I saw him pitch in person. It is hard to describe but the ball hit the glove different. The ball moved different. Another guy from that era robbed of what never was.
White Sox fan here. I watched a ton of games in the 2000s and don't remember an opposing pitcher as dominant as he was. Not even close. When he pitched, you simply knew it was going to be an automatic loss unless our starter pitched a gem. He was devastating with his change-up and even the best Sox hitters who faced him regularly and knew what he did had no chance. I understand the longevity stats aren't there, but FFS, if you're so utterly dominant for a 4-5 year stretch, you belong in the HOF. It seems absurd that he isn't.
There's a clip you use at the 12 minute mark (almost on the dot) kind of incidentally that I personally think was really the true cause for Johan's downfall in 2012 and what wound up being the rest of his career. In said clip, Johan's running to first to cover the base on a grounder. His ankle is stepped on by Reed Johnson while trying to field the throw (not Reed's fault, he just happened to be the guy running). Johan probably hurt his ankle more than what was let on and was compensating for that bum ankle. That lead to the bad back. Which lead to poor mechanics which then caused his shoulder to tear again. Basically it's amazing how interconnected the body is.
@@antoniomiranda8691Koufax started way earlier than Johan (age 18) and somehow still had less WAR which is crazy. Johan however, has a better ERA+. Overall you’d be surprised how many stats are just 1-2% away from eachother usually with koufax being just ever so slightly in the lead. (Probably because he played in an era of meh offenses especially compared to Johan who pitched in the steroid era)
@trollingandtomfooleryInc. They both pitched 12yrs. So the age doesn't matter. Era+ and war, is what it is. Shutouts and complete games, not even close. Koufax blows him out the water. My opinion.
Johan is imo the modern example of Koufax. Short but dominant peak, and it was just long enough to be truly viewed as one of the greats of his generation. He should've gotten in
@@lyman2095 The writers should be able to vote for an unlimited number of players, that would solve it. Johan Santana, Kenny Lofton, Nomar Garciaparra, Bernie Williams, Jim Edmonds, Carlos Delgado, Dwight Gooden, and dozens of more players would get a chance to make their case at least. Is every player who bubbles around that 5% a HOFer? No, of course not, but what harm is there in keeping these guys in the discussion? They're not going to give Tim Wakefield (RIP) 5%, they're not going to give Armando Benitez 5%, or any other obviously non-HOF caliber players, and even if they did, everyone would laugh at it and they'd be gone the next year.
Johan Santana is in Venezuelan baseball Hall of Fame, inducted in 2023, because what he did in MLB and in Venezuelan winter league (LVBP) His team in Venezuela is Magallanes, and he also is member of Magallanes Hall of Fame With Magallanes he pitched 4 seasons, with 11-6 and 2.23 ERA between 1998-2002 (when a good venezuelan player pitched in MLB, he barely played with his venezuelan team). He was champion with Magallanes in 2001-2002 season.
Part of what I like about HOFs in all sports is the human element. Where people just barely miss out or who maybe didn't deserve it make it in. Sometimes, it just wasn't meant to be.
Mets offense did Santana and degrom so dirty with no run support. It’s was so hard to watch game in and game out for both of em. Great to watch them pitch but horrible watching the team loose those games and not even make the playoffs
No way this guy is a hall of famer. Yes he was a good pitcher. But he won 20 games only one time in his career. He averaged 10 wins a year. 10 wins a year!. That's not a hall of famer. This guy didn't even have a 150 wins. If he gets in then Ron guidry should be right behind him
why wasn't he a free agent after 2007? it seems like he should have had enough service time by then. 2000-2002 he pitched almost 260 IP combined, so that seems like 1 year at least. then 2003-2007 is 5 more. after that season he should have been a free agent. why did the mets have to trade for him? had he already signed an extension with the twins?
Tovar is on the north east coast of Venezuela , nowhere near the Andes mountains area of Venezuela, which is in the south west. Gotta do better research.
You can't be great for only a few years + not have the numbers (eg 300 wins) + have no WS. You have to be at least "good" (not great) for a minimum of a decade and it can't be below that standard or EVERYONE would get in, which they don't want. I'd say the minimum short career is Kirby Puckett. He doesn't have the traditional numbers to get in (500HR) BUT he was either GOOD or great for 10 years (10x all star) + WS. Compare his career to say Fernando Valenzuela (6x AS, Cy Young, RoY, WS)
Depends if you're a high peak guy and not an compiler guy. Rolen played for a long time-hit the big barriers of 2k hits and had 70 WAR. Johan is short of 150 wins and 2k strikeouts which hurt his chances. Sooner or later those standards will have to change for starting pitchers though and he'll eventually get in. Otherwise no starters will get in in the future because nobody is going to get 200 wins.
can't believe he lost the CY to Bartolo Cologne. Baseball writers have to be the most emotional and illogical in all of sports. That pick makes no sense.
Played in the same era with Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez and Curt Shilling... not the best, not even close. Not even worth my time with that dumbass title
He’s not a HoFer. Full stop. His five year peak was not enough, nor are his career totals. The reason Koufax’s peak IS enough is because those years were absolutely mind bogglingly phenomenal, and few pitchers have achieved his numbers ever since. That can’t be said of Santana. And Koufax actually had two excellent seasons prior to his four year peak. So while Santana was exceptional for five years, that’s as good as it gets for him. He is NOT a HoFer based on a five season peak. It’s that simple.
He was very good for 8 years. Those 8 years are better than many hall of famers best 8 years including Don Drysdale, Nolan Ryan, Tom Glavine, Dizzy Dean, John Smoltz, Jim Kaat and future guys including Chris Sale, Degrom, Sabathia (who will be first ballot this year), and Felix Hernandez. There's definitely a place in even a small HOF for Johan.
@ every guy you named has superior final numbers and other individual achievements that Santana doesn’t have. It would take waaaay too long to name the accomplishments for each player, so I’ll leave it at that. Santana was really, REALLY good, but did not accomplish the things the guys you named did. He’s a hard case; 200w/2000k would have gotten him there, but he didn’t have the health. Side note: de Grom will likely never be a HoFer, despite his dominance.
@ yeah, his era and era+ are better, as are other analytical type numbers, but not wins, innings, Ks, CGs, and other traditional metrics. And certainly not Gold Gloves - 16 is astonishing, only bested by Maddux. Shame about Santana and de Grom. They deserved better health.
Him falling off the ballot after 1 year was insane
I am from Venezuela. That Chavez joke was mean. Love it!!
It took my brain a couple seconds to register the joke 😂
Definitely belongs in the hall. Best pitcher in baseball hands-down for 3-4 years straight. No-one even came close at that time period. Is he a first ballot guy? Probably not, but the fact he fell off on his first year is a problem the era committee will have to fix one day, just as soon as they actually nominate Kenny Lofton.
Good player. Not a hofer
@@Might-l5mIf sandy koufax deserves it, Johan does. He got scammed out of a cy young award (his third) back in 200(3)? Losing it to Bartolo Colon only because Bartolo’s team was better. Definite sandy koufax type story of a derailed, yet dominant, career.
@@TheRealAbblebees He had a similar career to Koufax, just in the reverse direction (hot first half, middling second half).
@@Might-l5m The problem is that we can't even have that debate because the Hall is so messed up in their process, guys like Santana, Kenny Lofton, Jim Edmonds, etc. are all gone before they get an argument. Anyone with 50+ WAR deserves to be looked at seriously, I'd even say anyone with 40+ WAR shouldn't be automatically ignored, especially if they're historically important such as a great postseason history and accolades.
I can see why some would say he's not a HOF'er, like I said, he's not a first ballot guy. But the fact he couldn't even get a serious consideration is so wrong. Is Mark Buehrle that much better than Santana? Andy Petite? They both have been argued for and against for years now, but not Santana. That's proof there's something wrong with the process.
I have no idea how lofton isn’t in and dropped off in one year at that
About 1:14:
" The most powerful lefty since Hugo Chavez " LOL, well done
Loved watching johan pitch with that devastating changeup as a Mets fan growing up. Even if his no hitter had a bit of an asterisk to it I’m so glad he was the one who got it done for a franchise that never had one.
Kind of a poetic no-hitter. One of the potential all time greats who fell down on his luck with injuries, but came back to throw a no-hitter for one of the most rollercoaster-ish franchises in sports.
Dude had bout the NASTIEST change-up I've ever seen. Right up there with Bert Blyleven's slider, a pitcher Santana once bet against. The bet was that if Santana pitched a complete-game shutout in the next game against the White Sox, Blyleven would have to get his head shaved. The haircut happened three days later.
Generational talent. Shame on baseball and the writers for their mismanagement of the hall of fame. Our historical national pastime's hall of fame is irrelevant today.
Growing up a Twins fan in the 2000s was special knowing you were watching the best pitcher in the game dominate. That changeup was unbelievable.
Though I was too young to fully appreciate Santana's tenure in Minnesota, he was one of the players that made those early 2000s Twins so watchable and gave hope to the fans even at the dawn of the 0-20 streak. I wish you'd mentioned, even briefly, how many Venezuelan pitchers have cited Santana as a hero and an inspiration. One of those Venezuelan pitchers who watched Santana growing up was current Twins ace Pablo Lopez, who helped break the streak that Santana had to suffer through; he wore a Santana jersey to Target Field before the game.
Remember watching this guy growing up. Dawg on the mound
His changeup looks like he has a string tied to it, and when it gets to the batter he yanks it away. It was a beautiful pitch.
Best description I've ever heard. Very true
I remember those years as a Tigers fan. He was truly unbelievable when I saw him pitch in person. It is hard to describe but the ball hit the glove different. The ball moved different. Another guy from that era robbed of what never was.
White Sox fan here. I watched a ton of games in the 2000s and don't remember an opposing pitcher as dominant as he was. Not even close. When he pitched, you simply knew it was going to be an automatic loss unless our starter pitched a gem. He was devastating with his change-up and even the best Sox hitters who faced him regularly and knew what he did had no chance.
I understand the longevity stats aren't there, but FFS, if you're so utterly dominant for a 4-5 year stretch, you belong in the HOF. It seems absurd that he isn't.
There's a clip you use at the 12 minute mark (almost on the dot) kind of incidentally that I personally think was really the true cause for Johan's downfall in 2012 and what wound up being the rest of his career.
In said clip, Johan's running to first to cover the base on a grounder. His ankle is stepped on by Reed Johnson while trying to field the throw (not Reed's fault, he just happened to be the guy running). Johan probably hurt his ankle more than what was let on and was compensating for that bum ankle. That lead to the bad back. Which lead to poor mechanics which then caused his shoulder to tear again.
Basically it's amazing how interconnected the body is.
I would love to see a video on Brandon Webb.
I've always felt like if guys like Sandy Koufax and Gale Sayers could get into the Hall of Fame with insane but short peaks, Johan should get in, too.
I know era's are different, Koufax blows him out the water. Not even close.
Sandy Koufax and who?
@@antoniomiranda8691gonna do research on that one thanks to era-adjusted stats.
@@antoniomiranda8691Koufax started way earlier than Johan (age 18) and somehow still had less WAR which is crazy. Johan however, has a better ERA+. Overall you’d be surprised how many stats are just 1-2% away from eachother usually with koufax being just ever so slightly in the lead. (Probably because he played in an era of meh offenses especially compared to Johan who pitched in the steroid era)
@trollingandtomfooleryInc. They both pitched 12yrs. So the age doesn't matter. Era+ and war, is what it is. Shutouts and complete games, not even close. Koufax blows him out the water. My opinion.
God he was so fun to watch. Those Twins teams were my first Twins teams when I was younger.
Johan is imo the modern example of Koufax. Short but dominant peak, and it was just long enough to be truly viewed as one of the greats of his generation. He should've gotten in
Him and 55 from the San Francisco Giants #55 are legit GOATS
Do not understand how hes not a HOFer.
Haters complaining about the teams he plays for.
It wouldn’t be so much of a slap in the face if he made it more than one year on the ballot. That’s the really unfathomable part
@@lyman2095 The writers should be able to vote for an unlimited number of players, that would solve it. Johan Santana, Kenny Lofton, Nomar Garciaparra, Bernie Williams, Jim Edmonds, Carlos Delgado, Dwight Gooden, and dozens of more players would get a chance to make their case at least. Is every player who bubbles around that 5% a HOFer? No, of course not, but what harm is there in keeping these guys in the discussion? They're not going to give Tim Wakefield (RIP) 5%, they're not going to give Armando Benitez 5%, or any other obviously non-HOF caliber players, and even if they did, everyone would laugh at it and they'd be gone the next year.
Johan Santana is in Venezuelan baseball Hall of Fame, inducted in 2023, because what he did in MLB and in Venezuelan winter league (LVBP)
His team in Venezuela is Magallanes, and he also is member of Magallanes Hall of Fame
With Magallanes he pitched 4 seasons, with 11-6 and 2.23 ERA between 1998-2002 (when a good venezuelan player pitched in MLB, he barely played with his venezuelan team).
He was champion with Magallanes in 2001-2002 season.
i watch santana pitch once . his changeiup moved like a wiffleball i swear
Part of what I like about HOFs in all sports is the human element. Where people just barely miss out or who maybe didn't deserve it make it in. Sometimes, it just wasn't meant to be.
11:13 - That fan from shea stadium days
Best lefty changeup ever. Probably the best in general if Pedro didn’t exist imo.
They talk about it more on Prime 9
m.ua-cam.com/video/YKd4k9e5TDg/v-deo.htmlm1s
An absolute beast on MVP baseball 05.
2004-2008 Santana is basically Sandy Koufax from 1962-1966 adjusted for era. One of my favorite players in the new millennium.
Let's throw in 1907-1912 Ed Walsh and 1944-1948 Hal Newhouser, two more notable peak guys
Not only was I a baseball fan I am a Mets fan! He gave us our first no hitter
"The most dominant lefty to come out of Venezuela since Hugo Chavez."
Alright that got me. 🤣
He'll eventually get in, and so will Felix Hernandez. I expect Felix to fall off the writer's ballot though.
I agree. King Felix SHOULD be in the Hall but won't
It always makes me sad as a lifelong marlin fan (since 93) seeing how many HOF players we had that we gave away. Ugh.
He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
I think we will heard the same thing about Rodriguez as his first year on the ballot is here.
somehow I knew you’d be reading me bedtime stories someday
It’s like it was meant to be…
Mets offense did Santana and degrom so dirty with no run support. It’s was so hard to watch game in and game out for both of em. Great to watch them pitch but horrible watching the team loose those games and not even make the playoffs
No way this guy is a hall of famer. Yes he was a good pitcher. But he won 20 games only one time in his career. He averaged 10 wins a year. 10 wins a year!. That's not a hall of famer. This guy didn't even have a 150 wins. If he gets in then Ron guidry should be right behind him
He should definitely be in. Especially long before Rolen.
Check out Johan Santana's broad shoulders. Wish I could find a pic of him shirtless but I don't think one exists from his playing days unfortunately.
Modern Sandy Koufax
Should probably in the Hall of Fame as a peak guy
The Chavez joke is hilarious
One of just 16 pitchers to maintain an ERA+ above 150 over a seven-year period.
why wasn't he a free agent after 2007? it seems like he should have had enough service time by then. 2000-2002 he pitched almost 260 IP combined, so that seems like 1 year at least. then 2003-2007 is 5 more. after that season he should have been a free agent. why did the mets have to trade for him? had he already signed an extension with the twins?
I don’t think he’s a HoF guy, but I think he’s very close to being one. I wouldn’t be upset if he had gotten in.
If I could induct 15 players that are not in the hall into the Johan would be on it
My Mets did The Johan Dirty. Should have like 50 more wins. Same with deGrom. Nasty work
Agree about Johan, disagree about deGrom. Jake just threw too hard to last.
I've never understood how guys can gain so many votes on the Hall of Fame ballot
In no era, let alone season, was Johan Santana ever the best pitcher.
“It’s not how you start, it’s how you finish” - Hall of Fame voters
Tovar is on the north east coast of Venezuela , nowhere near the Andes mountains area of Venezuela, which is in the south west. Gotta do better research.
You can't be great for only a few years + not have the numbers (eg 300 wins) + have no WS. You have to be at least "good" (not great) for a minimum of a decade and it can't be below that standard or EVERYONE would get in, which they don't want. I'd say the minimum short career is Kirby Puckett. He doesn't have the traditional numbers to get in (500HR) BUT he was either GOOD or great for 10 years (10x all star) + WS. Compare his career to say Fernando Valenzuela (6x AS, Cy Young, RoY, WS)
Guu should have been a hall lock. 3* straight Cy Youngs. I'm giving him 2005 because the voters were brain dead
21 wins woooooooooowwwwwwwwwww!
They simply felt he didn't play long enough
Throwing too much doesn't cause arm injuries, throwing not enough does
Scott Rolen in the HOF and not Johan is crazy work
Depends if you're a high peak guy and not an compiler guy. Rolen played for a long time-hit the big barriers of 2k hits and had 70 WAR. Johan is short of 150 wins and 2k strikeouts which hurt his chances. Sooner or later those standards will have to change for starting pitchers though and he'll eventually get in. Otherwise no starters will get in in the future because nobody is going to get 200 wins.
As a Mets fan I’m mad he’s not recognized more. I wish the Mets recognized his no hitter more and bring him around more.
If the Astros were able to keep and develop him, they would've won a ring.
can't believe he lost the CY to Bartolo Cologne. Baseball writers have to be the most emotional and illogical in all of sports. That pick makes no sense.
WTF is he not in already? Joke. Santana is a all Time beast
5 seasons isnt breif
RUINED his career for ONE, regular season game. A no-hitter with a GIANT ASTERISK!!!
Most dominant of his Era? Hard disagree. He was good though
For 5 years he was dynamite
Played in the same era with Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez and Curt Shilling... not the best, not even close. Not even worth my time with that dumbass title
He’s not a HoFer. Full stop.
His five year peak was not enough, nor are his career totals. The reason Koufax’s peak IS enough is because those years were absolutely mind bogglingly phenomenal, and few pitchers have achieved his numbers ever since. That can’t be said of Santana. And Koufax actually had two excellent seasons prior to his four year peak.
So while Santana was exceptional for five years, that’s as good as it gets for him. He is NOT a HoFer based on a five season peak. It’s that simple.
He was very good for 8 years. Those 8 years are better than many hall of famers best 8 years including Don Drysdale, Nolan Ryan, Tom Glavine, Dizzy Dean, John Smoltz, Jim Kaat and future guys including Chris Sale, Degrom, Sabathia (who will be first ballot this year), and Felix Hernandez. There's definitely a place in even a small HOF for Johan.
@ every guy you named has superior final numbers and other individual achievements that Santana doesn’t have. It would take waaaay too long to name the accomplishments for each player, so I’ll leave it at that. Santana was really, REALLY good, but did not accomplish the things the guys you named did. He’s a hard case; 200w/2000k would have gotten him there, but he didn’t have the health.
Side note: de Grom will likely never be a HoFer, despite his dominance.
@@stoneshire645 Santana has superior credentials to Jim Kaat. I don't think Degrom gets in either.
@ yeah, his era and era+ are better, as are other analytical type numbers, but not wins, innings, Ks, CGs, and other traditional metrics. And certainly not Gold Gloves - 16 is astonishing, only bested by Maddux. Shame about Santana and de Grom. They deserved better health.
The most dominant pitcher for half a decade is more than Hall worthy
AWFUL thumbnail, his peak was with the Twins.
Waaaa , cry
@Am31719 you must be one of those sensitive dems
@@Am31719 keep crying, lib
Isnt the thumbnail him with the twins
God, i just realized both of you are fully grown adults saying shit like that to eachother.
Bro brandon webb was way better than i thought. I just used to see him as another loser from arizona😂😂
Halfway to a Hall of Fame career by the age of 29 but it suddenly ended