Hi Sarah! Thanks for sharing this! The history of kishotenketsu (and the comparison to johakyu) was especially fun to hear. I was curious, though, because I'd heard that a lot of Miyazaki's films follow the kishotenketsu format (I'm sure I'd heard it about Totoro, but I also think I remember Spirited Away as another example)? I guess I wonder if these are contrary examples, or if these films, despite being feature length, are still more like shorter stories? In either case, I'll look forward to your upcoming videos :)
I’m glad you enjoyed the video! So Miyazaki as well as a lot of other famous Japanese directors and also game developers are very well known in Japan for using the structure in their works (Shigeru Miyamoto from Nintendo is a great example!). These days as I said, the structure is basically utilised as the basis for all narrative structures in Japan and a good deal of other East Asian countries, despite its original use as a poetic structure. The only problem with trying to analyse and define feature length stories with the structure is that a lot of the ‘in between’ events and beats and whatnot aren’t defined within the structure, which can make analysis difficult, but that doesn’t mean that the creators didn’t base their narrative around it. There’s been studies that show that those familiar with the structure but not a western narrative structure are easily able to analyse texts that use the kishotenketsu structure, but not the Western structure, and vice versa. I personally find that kishotenketsu taken at face value suits shorter narratives and is easier to understand that way, but it’s true that Japanese long form narratives are most often based on this structure too.
You have really good japanese pronunciation, especially given that you are (presumably) a native English speaker I think that the kishotenketsu could actually be really useful when it comes to short horror stories. I feel like too many writers skip the "development" part, which makes the twist a bit.. jarring Edit: You said it at the end, nevermind
I would rather say that using Ki Sho Ten Ketsu, you can easily have stories with no conflict. But it doesn't exclude having one. For example: In old times, copying information by hand was necessary. Some mistakes were made. Copying machines made it possible to make quick and accurate copies. Traveling by car saves time, but you don't get much impression of the local beauty. Walking makes it a lot easier to appreciate nature close up. Although photocopying is easier, copying by hand is sometimes better, because the information stays in your memory longer and can be used later.
Yeah, this structure is a corner-stone of East Asian narrative structures, and though it’s now often far removed from its original purpose as a structure for four line poetry and used as a base for long-form fiction, you’ll find that it will at least in some way inform how plot is handled in the vast majority of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean fiction.
Would this include something where a conflict is "introduced" as a base like a more conventional story telling, but the plot twist ends up showing that the original conflict is not actually the conflict and there is a more important or more real conflict and the original one actually does not matter?
If you mean would that count as being a kishotenketsu structure, I think you could say so, yes. Even though the structure doesn't include the idea of presenting a conflict or question in the first act, that's not the same as saying that you MUSTN'T have any conflict. It might be good in this case to think of the Ten (twist) as a "shifting the goal posts" moment. I think doing something like this, where you mix more conventional story beats to fill out the weaker parts of kishotenketsu is a good way to adapt it to long-form narratives. It can be difficult to do this effectively though, because you run the risk of betraying reader expectations when they spend the majority of a story invested in one conflict only to be told with a twist that none of that was actually what mattered. But that's more to do with how to set up and write plot twists effectively than a problem with the structure itself.
@@sarahwrites95 Yes, that is what I meant. I can only think of 1 long form story that did this. I'm sure I've seen more but I can't think of them right of this moment, but as you said, it most likely will lead to a sense of betrayal toward the reader. Which, funny enough was the whole point of that one story I'm thinking of, which even though it leads to betraying the reader can result in some good story telling because of that very fact.
Hi Sarah! Thanks for sharing this! The history of kishotenketsu (and the comparison to johakyu) was especially fun to hear. I was curious, though, because I'd heard that a lot of Miyazaki's films follow the kishotenketsu format (I'm sure I'd heard it about Totoro, but I also think I remember Spirited Away as another example)? I guess I wonder if these are contrary examples, or if these films, despite being feature length, are still more like shorter stories?
In either case, I'll look forward to your upcoming videos :)
I’m glad you enjoyed the video!
So Miyazaki as well as a lot of other famous Japanese directors and also game developers are very well known in Japan for using the structure in their works (Shigeru Miyamoto from Nintendo is a great example!).
These days as I said, the structure is basically utilised as the basis for all narrative structures in Japan and a good deal of other East Asian countries, despite its original use as a poetic structure. The only problem with trying to analyse and define feature length stories with the structure is that a lot of the ‘in between’ events and beats and whatnot aren’t defined within the structure, which can make analysis difficult, but that doesn’t mean that the creators didn’t base their narrative around it.
There’s been studies that show that those familiar with the structure but not a western narrative structure are easily able to analyse texts that use the kishotenketsu structure, but not the Western structure, and vice versa.
I personally find that kishotenketsu taken at face value suits shorter narratives and is easier to understand that way, but it’s true that Japanese long form narratives are most often based on this structure too.
You have really good japanese pronunciation, especially given that you are (presumably) a native English speaker
I think that the kishotenketsu could actually be really useful when it comes to short horror stories. I feel like too many writers skip the "development" part, which makes the twist a bit.. jarring
Edit: You said it at the end, nevermind
I would rather say that using Ki Sho Ten Ketsu, you can easily have stories with no conflict. But it doesn't exclude having one.
For example:
In old times, copying information by hand was necessary. Some mistakes were made.
Copying machines made it possible to make quick and accurate copies.
Traveling by car saves time, but you don't get much impression of the local beauty. Walking makes it a lot easier to appreciate nature close up.
Although photocopying is easier, copying by hand is sometimes better, because the information stays in your memory longer and can be used later.
Good luck with your channel and writing.
Thank you!
@@sarahwrites95 You are very welcome. It is always interesting to hear about something you hadn't heard about before and you did a good job of it.
The Chinese novel bandits of the marsh uses this structure. There is a ton of conflict in that novel.
The concept is used everywhere, from poetry to prose in China.
Yeah, this structure is a corner-stone of East Asian narrative structures, and though it’s now often far removed from its original purpose as a structure for four line poetry and used as a base for long-form fiction, you’ll find that it will at least in some way inform how plot is handled in the vast majority of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean fiction.
Love your video, I want to learn some Japanese through the English I have just learned in the past few years.
Would this include something where a conflict is "introduced" as a base like a more conventional story telling, but the plot twist ends up showing that the original conflict is not actually the conflict and there is a more important or more real conflict and the original one actually does not matter?
If you mean would that count as being a kishotenketsu structure, I think you could say so, yes. Even though the structure doesn't include the idea of presenting a conflict or question in the first act, that's not the same as saying that you MUSTN'T have any conflict. It might be good in this case to think of the Ten (twist) as a "shifting the goal posts" moment. I think doing something like this, where you mix more conventional story beats to fill out the weaker parts of kishotenketsu is a good way to adapt it to long-form narratives.
It can be difficult to do this effectively though, because you run the risk of betraying reader expectations when they spend the majority of a story invested in one conflict only to be told with a twist that none of that was actually what mattered. But that's more to do with how to set up and write plot twists effectively than a problem with the structure itself.
@@sarahwrites95 Yes, that is what I meant. I can only think of 1 long form story that did this. I'm sure I've seen more but I can't think of them right of this moment, but as you said, it most likely will lead to a sense of betrayal toward the reader. Which, funny enough was the whole point of that one story I'm thinking of, which even though it leads to betraying the reader can result in some good story telling because of that very fact.
Did movie/manga Look Back include kishotenketsu comic strips?
I haven’t watched or read it, but from what I’m aware of yes! 4 panel comics are an important motif and plot device in Look Back.
@@sarahwrites95 Thanks!