MLID, I've recently upgraded my 2060. After looking at the market and a myriad of reviews, benchmarks, tier lists and product specifications I made my choice. I decided on a used 2080ti. The 2080ti was advertised as a FE for £300, I'm not sure if you will be familiar with the shop, it was CEX and came with a 5 year warranty that I reached out to customer services to provide more details about. The 2080ti and 4060ti 16gb perform almost identically, with the 60ti pricing between £400-£500~. I am very happy with my purchase. It was the dream card when I made my first PC with the 2060. Having 11GB of VRAM against the 8GB my budget tended to limit me to was essential considering trends. The card that arrived was the ROG Strix, instead of the founders edition advertised. that was the icing on the cake. I have stress tested it and ran it daily with a new monitor so I could appreciate fully. Thermals are about what they should be when it was new, no crashing, coil whine or fan noise so far. The card hadn't been refurbished by the shop or in its lifetime from what I can tell, so stock thermal pads. I am willing to do this, in the future, with good putty and/or an AIO mod/water block. Before the B580, there was nothing anywhere close to the value at that price. I had been pondering whether I should have held out, seeing the performance benchmarks. I'm curious, what is your opinion on my choice? I was moving towards increasing my budget to make sure I had a competent 1440p card that wouldn't be redundant like 8GB cards are shaping up to be. Experiencing a couple of expensive or unfixable, age related faults (referencing the warranty policy,) will be how I earn regret and pain. I feel its unlikely, with technologies like frame generation/dlss3, barely, being the shortfalls I notice first. I appreciate the video very much for grounding, the salt and cognitive dissonance is hilarious to see from some. Keep up the amazing work dude. p.s. I'm running a ryzen 3600x with an eye to upgrade to the 3800x3d/3950x3d/5800x3d in the near future. do you have any advice? there is only a very small bottleneck if any currently.
My respect for your opinions & Journalism has drop like parts of a Boeing. You have made it explicitly clear that you hate Intel's involvement in GPU's & think the product is garbafe. And you have taken like a man, disenjeniously, attempting to weasel out of your mistake, having a huge tantrum about how you said first, basically anything to bigup your ego and massage your. Rather than sticking to your guns, my opinion is this there opinion is that but I might be wrong. You drcide, but that would take guts that you don't have. But that's my opinion, you can tell me to f off and maybe you're right & I'm wrong
Ok Tom calm down... I agree with the premise but calling Star Wars Outlaws a "popular game" is incredibly generous to say the least, all time peak Steam players is under 2.5k...
Correct, but the card also has issues on the new Indiana Jones, and have worse 1% and 0.1% lows than the RX 7600 in most games at 1080p according to Gamers Nexus tests.
@@420247paul Better RT than AMD 7600, worse than 4060, but in the end only matters for very basic RT at this performance level, like in Indiana Jones, that runs with issues in this card.
0:58 The 3060 12Gb is currently $280, making it 72% the performance per dollar of the B580, 28% behind the B580, not 8% as you said. It wouldn't have even fit on the chart if placed accurately. "The data speaks for itself" except it's bad data and/or you're misinterpreting it. 12:29 Even according to the GN stats you reference, the 3060($280) is still 20% behind the performance per dollar of the B580($250). According to PC Part Picker, $280 is the current price, with the two year lowest being $255, which would still only place it at 79% on your list, 21% behind the B580. It wasn't your publication, but if you're going to cite it to prove a point, at least do your viewers the courtesy of checking it makes sense beforehand.
Pricing for obsolete cards is all over the place, so you can always make the data fit your argument. I think two things can be right at the same time: Intel can have a well-priced card that has little to no competition, as AMD and nVidia skimp on RAM at this price point. But it can also be a product that that is no quantum leap in performance and that AMD and nVidia can easily compete with if they wanted to. The 7700 XT has less die size, yet sells for $400. AMD would probably just about break even at $280 or $300. So no way is Intel making money at $250. If AMD wanted to enter a ruinous price war, they'd have a product that blows Intel out of the water. Conclusion: The Intel card is sold at a loss intentionally. That's not the same as having a technogically advanced product that can be solder cheaper, because it does the same thing with fewer resources.
This dude hates intel plain and simple for AMD and Nvidia he gives good takes but no matter what intel says he is going to hate on them plain and simple.
@@imperatortriston2353 Let's be honest: What Intel did over the last year with drivers, XeSS and software in general was amazing. They built their own modern graphics IP up from bascially scratch (that old Intel HD Graphics nonsense is lightyears behind ARC) and are now better positioned in the laptop space, where they can now offer APUs / SoCs that can rival Apple and AMD. There are many reasons to heap praise on intel. But as a competitor in the Gaming sector, this design does not work, as there is no path to profits here for Intel. If AMD is not getting rich with Radeon, the economics for Intel do not work, if they sell a 15% larger die for over 30% less money. Maybe they will with Celestial or Druid.
According to my gut data Battlemage is great from the start and drivers are still going to improve. The launch price won't be 250 forever and it will come down. The 3060 won't likely be supported with new DLSS features (frame gen is already missing and texture compression may be RTX 50 exclusive). Meanwhile Battlemage has the full array of "AI" techs, solid RT (for what it matters in this price class) and more than enough VRAM for 1080p gaming. My gut summary is that we may have a "new RX 480 8GB like card" in front of us and I am considering to buy it once availability in Europe improves.
@meckerhesseausfrankfurt4019Exactly. I got my 6700XT for $200 CAD (roughly $140-150 USD at the time) from a crypto miner dumping all his hardware. Pretending like my singular purchase represents the rest of the used market is ridiculous
Hardware unboxed: B580 saves PC gaming industry Jays2Cents: Excellent value Hardware Canucks: Excellent value Jays2cents: excellent value Gamers Nexus: Excellent value Level 1 tech: excellent value Etc Etc Etc No under 4/5 star reviews in the internet.
@@AlphaConde-qy7viright, like as much as I want intel to do well, and much as I've waited for battlemage launch... Tom is right, there is no supply, and rly at 250$ for its performance yes its a decent deal, but the driver support isn't there yet for most average ppl to game that don't have back up systems to just swap pcs when got an issue. Like I build systems for ppl, I upgrade ppls systems, do repairs, I've had a bunch of customers asking me about these and I keep telling them same thing unless you doing bunch video editing and media workloads and gaming isn't as important to you, great budget option, but purely gaming and not software savvy. Cannot recommend they get them yet. Let alone have you tried to buy one? Most places are over 300$ rn cuz they got like no stock Not to mention. Rx 7600 was decent jump on rx 6600, the rx 8600 holds that trend around 300$ its going to crush it
Because it's compared with cards that came out two or more years ago. In a few months time it'll be competing with 5050 and 8600 that will have similar performance and price. Also, if you look at the specs. B580 is made on the same node as 4060Ti but has bigger die size and lower density, running weaker and consuming more power. While it is a good value for consumers, it's actually very bad for Intel. It cost more to make and it's architecturally worse than previous gen design from its competitors.
Mega "250$" value gpu. IF you can find it, 340+ Bucks, before tax. Marketed for 1440p with RT -> Cannot even launch a 5 year old game Cyberpunk. If you don't turn on Fake frames and Fake resolution you get 20fps. Card cannot even run a bottom of the F-tier "gaming" monitors at the marketed performance 1440p+RT. I could not find a "gaming" marketed monitor in stock
Tom , we as consumer we do not care about road maps of multi billion dollars companies. We understand your frustration with Intel, but if Intel said : "We f****d up" they would have problems with the investors. Hopefully we will have future products like B580 which can poke Nvidia & AMD in low end.
Thats not how business works! Lol. Intel shareholders don't care about you. They fired Pat. Arc is being cancelled. They have to try and save the company. Pat spent them into the ground. Anything not making a profit which includes covering R&D cost is gone. It's already being reported by business analysts.
I agree. I'm not particularly informed on this but it never really rang true that intel would have legal issues with their roadmap, even as quickly as it became obvious bs. They always cover their back on these things with every statement they make. Hopefully the adage that the last 10% is the hardest part is true and Intel can get to 90% of what AMD are doing relatively quickly so ARC is sustainable. If Intel can keep ARC going I don't think there is anything to rival the opportunity cost of discrete graphics right now (other than the survival of Intel itself).
@@tstager1978 well then maybe it's the shareholders plus the middle management that has ruined intel? Pat getting fired as a scapegoat but god damn do these major shareholders not understand tech at all.
@@numnuts44 how would intel or any company have problems, not adhering to a roadmap? Roadmap especially in tech is like a wishlist, look at electric cars, over 10 years of promises and there's still no replacement for toxic, heavy and inefficient lithium batteries. A tech innovation roadmap certainly cannot be legally binding.
@@tstager1978 Pat should have been leading the company when they had money to burn and not keep launching 4 cores with hyper threading for obscene prices and keep same 14 nm node. I think they should make 1-2 days every few years. Funny thing is that their new version of upscale technology is quite good compared FSR 2.0. They should not let die the gpu division but they need to keep making money somehow.
@1:30 Whoa whoa whoa, hold on. Being unable to play Star Wars Outlaw is a feature, not a bug. I'm surprised Intel missed the opportunity to put that on the box as a selling point.
It’s not that BAD, only bad thing is being developed by Ubisoft, but in reality is decent or at least okay. People who actually have it a shot said it’s a decent game, it’s just that people don’t want to touch an Ubisoft game, rightfully so.
Intel won’t last until Celestial launches. Intel is bleeding $ billions per year. ARL is a joke. LNL is being sold at a loss. Without a profit, how will Intel last?
I did not see Arc go anywhere.... if they wanted to kill it they would have not bothered with this continuus driver support and they would have not kept developing XeSS 2. Arc may miss a discrete midrange GPU in the next generation or 2 however I think that Arc will go on and Intel will always have a new Arc generation at least in their iGPUs and handhelds even if they do not think that a discrete GPU makes sense for that specific moment in the future. I am happy that Arc is here to stay!
If Gamers Nexus says the price to performance is decent then that means its good. He is generally the most critical of Arc while having the best interviews with Tom Petersen. I was critical myself until it out performed the 7600 in most games at 1080 Ultra settings, which is the only settings I use at 1080p. I think the B580 will do well for a while and it shouldn't take much more than 2 weeks for Cyberpunk to work in Ultra RT mode. I don't have a single Intel component in my system, AMD through and through, but Intel wins this one boys.
Whether intel makes any margin on this means nothing to buyers and hence reviewers. At msrp it is indeed a half decent product comparing to the street price, if it works in your games of course. Though it has to be said that battlemage is definitely more usable than alchemist at launch.
@@natjimoEU well if you are in Eu i'm not 100% sure it is. Probably it is the same or less than a current 4060. 4060 in eu goes for 270 euro. B580 in eu goes for 320-330 euro. so it is 50-60 euro difference which is 20% of the price for a 10-15% performance boost. So it is not a better value and it also might have issues with drivers. In America at 250$ while the 4060 stays at 290-299 $ it is a better value but still will have driver issues and you also have to remember that people ACTUALLY buy brands and not performance ( especially in the low end ) and the most famous and reliable brand is surely nvidia.
Overclockers in the the U.K received plenty of stock. 150 LE cards shipped. 200 more next week. And hundreds of AIB cards were available. AWD-IT also had stock
The statement “nobody really wants it” kinda falls flat when so many people want it Intel can’t make enough because it’s at a loss. Clearly there is latent demand for a 3rd competitor especially one who takes price seriously whether or not that’s a circumstance or not. In Intel’s best interest to get this cost effective ASAP for future generation which I know we don’t like talk of.
The truth is its a decent offering for Intel except for the fact that they can't afford to sell it. Intel is in real trouble whether you choose to believe it or not. Nobody would want it if it were offered at a price that is profitable for Intel like $500.
@@ZAGAN-OZ At some point when 18A is ready Intel has internal foundry. Which means they have a better shot at the war of attrition than AMD or Nvidia if they get the design right.
No *seller* wants it, in context it’s fairly obvious that’s what he meant. It’s either they sell at higher then MSRP, which makes it undesirable, or they sell at a loss… which defeats the purpose. *Nobody wants it*
The data speaks for itself. Like I say at the end of the video - I'm done arguing over obvious stuff. Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
@@MooresLawIsDead Stop clinging to that "enthusiast class". Who cares about the slide deck for investors? Only thing consumers care for is what they can buy in stores. And both Nvidia and AMD failed to deliver anything competetive for at least 4 years in below $300 market.
for someone that usually understands the things that happen in this space for consumers, you really just dont get it at all this time. Not one single person expects intel to uproot the entire low end market with the b580 when a lot of people are still waiting for the 700 / possible(?) 900 series cards, yet a 4060/7600 equivalent for the same price as an average 3060 on the market, even if its a loss leader with the amount of silicon in the card, is absolutely significant enough to matter and to keep intel in the running. comparing it to a 2080 super when its contemporaries are also the same performance as 2080 super but more expensive with the same amount of VRAM? its super disingenuous to go this far when it was obvious from the moment alchemist launched that battlemage was going to have a very very tight window to develop both the hardware and software and that it wouldnt be what ppl wanted by this generation, but is absolutely what everyone needs
They can't afford to sell anything at a loss right now. They don't want to sell these. This is why Pat got fired. They need to charge $500 for this to be profitable and nobody would buy it for that. They have said as much in the financial articles. Intel is in real trouble. They could go out of business. In a year from now, Tom will end up being right. It's not a bad card, if it was profitable at that price but its not.
@@stuartedwards6996as long as Intel has enough Money, Its actually great. It helps increasing market share and if Battleimage turns out to be really good, more people are going to consider a Arc GPU in the next generation, as it's established as a good budget GPU by then.
@@stuartedwards6996 Where is this evidence of them selling "at a loss"? Nvidia's margin is 60 to 80 percent per GPU sold, and their chips are much bigger, have much more complex PCBs designs and their R&D budget is gigantic
Oh man. You are clutching at straws here That cyperbunk issue is only x3d chips. It's a known issue in drivers with a fix awaited. Only guru3d had issues with starwars outlaws. Others had it running and performance was as expected.
@@stuartedwards6996 am not saying it's a non issue. But it happenns with a specific setting ie rt ultra on a cpu ie x3d. He makes it sound like cyberpunk doesn't run at all. If he had clearly said the conditions in which cyberpunk fails it would have been better
I seen several youtubers benchmarking the B580 and it had really good results at 1440p mostly which is their target, so I think it's a good card and AMD better step it up and provide a better card at similar price point.
@@tstager1978 why do you keep asking why they fired Pat? Every decent techtube and their mother, every single nerd knows they fired him as a scapegoat because they don't understand tech.
@@tstager1978 Except providing enough of an improvement in performance per dollar with RDNA4 to compete with the B580's 250 dollar MSRP wouldn't even be that hard for AMD to do. There's a good chance that AMD will release something that's a bit more expensive, but also a lot better as well. The value per dollar of AMD graphics cards has still been steadily increasing, it's just that the best value cards are generally more expensive now. The biggest problem with the 7000 series, from a consumer's perspective, is that there wasn't a good purpose built 12GB card. The 7600 is a very low-end, very weak card, though it's certainly not horrible, and the 7600 XT has more vram than it needs, and is a bit on the expensive side as a result. The 6700 XT and 6750 XT remained as the best value cards in the 250-300 dollar price range, at least in the US, where those cards are still available for between about 260-300. Maybe that's the best clue as to why AMD never bothered to produce a purpose built 12GB card with the 7000 series, maybe they just didn't want to make something which competed too directly with the 6700/6750 XT, which still haven't sold out in the US. The 7700 XT was obviously not a compelling value compared to the 7800 XT until it started to become available for up to 100 USD cheaper than the 7800 XT, but AMD never wanted to sell too many of those because of how close in cost it was to make vs. the 7800 XT. It was just occupying a spot in their product lineup, and it was still a way better value than either version of the 4060 ti when it first launched. AMD is rumoured to have one or more purpose-built lower-end 12GB cards coming out with the next generation, which should have far superior performance relative to manufacturing cost than that of Intel's B580, and I expect them to be a big improvement in value per dollar over the very mediocre 7600 XT.
Tom, Clearly there is a demand for a $250-ish/12GB/RT capable GPU. So are you telling us all the most reputable reviewers got it wrong and you got it right? ... If I was in the market for a new GPU and I had a $250-300ish budget, the B580 would definitely be my choice. Because it is very doubtful that Nvidia is going to have a 12GB VRAM GPU in that price class and AMD will not miss an opportunity to shoot themselfs in the foot. So, Intel to the rescue.
It doesn't matter. Intel can't afford to sell them no matter how large the demand is. At its current price, each one sold hurts them. Intel is hoping that there is no demand. The card needs to be at least $500 to be profitable. This is one of the main reasons Pat was fired.
I think on paper and at face value, this launch was an absolute win for Intel. All reviewers think it's a good card, and it is a good card at $250. Tom could have probably been more vocal about accepting this as a fact, and probably wouldn't have faced as much backlash. Still, I think the conclusion is still the same: Tom has more information regarding retailers' amount and vendors making this card, so if given that information the conclusion is that this card will be hard to get and not really available, and is in fact losing money for AIBs and Intel themselves, it's hard seeing this as long term strategy that continues to get green lit by Intel execs. But who knows, maybe they haggle the price down with TSMC, figure out better financials with each card produced such that it's profitable, or Intel accepts that each card is a loss, and ramps up production while accepting the losses, and then bank on winning enough market share where in future they can jack up price so that the newer cards are profitable. I wouldn't know, I'm not a financial advisor...
@@tstager1978Pat was fired to placate skittish, shortsighted and stupid shareholders who have zero idea of the timeframes this year kind of R&D takes. If Intel is barely making a profit on these now, its still a huge improvement on Alchemist, the B580 die is half the size of the A580 & still about 30% faster & much more stable. So I'd call that progress. Also if they don't want to sell these things, you wouldn't know it by how strong the marketing push for this thing has been.
For cyberpunk all you have to do is not enable ultra raytracing on x3d chips. intel will continue working on drivers too, theyve done great. You're very very harsh on intel...
@@ModjoGaming He's butthurt because he went out on a limb with unverified info and claimed Arc was cancelled and was exposed as a clown when it wasn't. Then he doubled down changing his story and moving the goalposts repeatedly making matters even worse. Every tiny step Arc keeps progressing just twists the knife cause it shows Tom cares about being first over being right and he _hates_ it. As you can tell he's the kind of person that just can't stand being wrong and this one was a doozy just as big as when he claimed RDNA3 was going to be 2X RDNA 2. He also backpedaled and changed his story on that one too as if we're stupid and haven't watched every single video he posts. 🤣
Except he is right about one thing, very few will be sold because Intel can't afford to sell many at that price. It needs to be $500 to be profitable and nobody wants it at that price. Intel doesn't want to sell them. Each one sold hurts the company. This is one reason that Pat got fired.
@@tstager1978 They lose money for now, investors are stupid and can barely see 1cm ahead of them. Firing pat may be the final nail in the coffin, they are already deep into fabs and gpu's.
While I think a lot of the points you make are valid, just having something new that blows the price/perf of everything else out of the water (HUB review has a comparison of MSRP and IRL prices) at launch can serve as a good wakeup call to AMD and Nvidia, plus it should ensure that Intel shouldn't have too many problems selling through their limited stock due to the good reviews it's been getting. There's definitely a more optimistic take even with all their recent failures
@@MooresLawIsDeadin their (HUB) price per frame charts, the b580 is quite noticeably better, over 20% lower cost per frame according to the Newegg prices. Considering how the launches of things like the 4060 or 7600 have gone where they've offered pretty much no extra value imrpovement, I honestly think battlemage can be considered a decent win. caveat of course being that it really does cost 250,
@@renchesandsords On paper, maybe. The main issue, is that The supply will not be enough for this segment of the market, so it will not influence AMD or Nvidia. Keep in mind that Price is affected by Supply and demand, Review look good so demand might be good for B580, But supply will be low, and that's something Intel's Tom Peteresen also said(so it's confirmed). So prices might go above MSRP if that's the case. But even if the MSRP price remains the same for some reason, defying the supply/demand, when the low supply of B580 is sold, Nvdia and AMD will have no pressure in dropping their prices. If they don't get sold because there is no demand, the outcome will be the same, Nvidia and AMD will still have no pressure. I guess we will have to wait and see how this plays out in the end. I didn't have much expectation from Battlemage, so i'm pleasantly surprised with it so far. I still remain disappointed in Intel though. they really messed it up, GPU and CPU wise.
@@tiberiumirica8445We actually don’t know if the supply will be insufficient. Intel likely had planned for another flop, but they suddenly have a success on their hands. You don’t need a business degree to know that the correct thing for them to do is ramp production above their break even threshold and enjoy the profits.
@@richardyao9012 They can ramp up production, but they'd either keep losing money on each card sold, or they'd lose their competitive edge because the price/perf ratio would no longer be so interesting. Not to mention, increasing volume takes some time... and CES announcements will start taking place in just a month (leaks, even earlier). All around a pretty tight spot for Intel.
I find it outright ridiculous that he is claiming that it is a “paper launch” and yet stock has been becoming available quite steadily over the last 48 hours. This is far from a paper launch in my opinion…
We'll see what steam hardware survey says in a few months. There is a huge amount of latent demand at that price point for sure, so we'll see if all the selling out of stock is actually materialising in a significant volume of sales.
It's a bit hyperbolic, but he's used the same term to refer to AMD and Nvidia launches in the past as well. In the case of Nvidia and AMD, they were able to release in much larger quantities within around a month (or less) after the initial "paper launch". Tom is arguing that Intel will not be able to justify/ afford doing that at all with the B580 or B570.
@@InnuendoXPI wonder if many gamers will be able to get them. At $250 for 12GB, this is a ridiculously cheap way to reach VRAM levels that costs far more from AMD and Nvidia. 4 of these cards should be able to run llama 3.3 70B at int4 quantization. The local llama crowd will likely buy them en masse.
Pat got fired because of these gpus which have to be sold at a loss. Would you think the b580 is so great at a cost of $500 which would be needed to cover R&D and provide a small margin? I didn't think so. Intel can't afford to sell these at that price. Everything not profitable is getting canned. Pat spent Intel into the ground and now they have to try and save the company.
@@MooresLawIsDead I think the point you're missing is that most people don't have that much money to sink in to a GPU every year, We've been struggling to buy anything for the last 4 years trying to compete with crypto, and AI, with a chip shortage, Gamers are also getting fed up with terribly optimized games, which would hint that they're also fed up with having to fork out for GPUs just to run their games above 900p. I'm sitting on a RX 5700 and a 5900X, and despite them being released the same year, the CPU feels almost brand new by comparison. So any hint of competition and bring prices down in my mind is worth celebrating. I remember when you could buy a top-end GPU for less than the price of the 3060, (ATI X800 XL yooo), and now that's considered budget.
@@MooresLawIsDeadThe more you go into the “I will die on this hill” mentality, the more criticism you receive. You clearly are not being rational here. None of your peers in the technology media agree with your views on the B580 because they are without merit.
@@MooresLawIsDead You have copied and pasted the same boiler plate response over and over. Take the "L" like a real human being and move on, people will respect you for it.
You're talking bull, it has 17% to 20% better price to performance than 4060 & 7600, which is the actual outgoing products it is being compared to. Your predictions about its price to performance comparison were absolutely wrong and you are wrong now.
The data speaks for itself. Like I say at the end of the video - I'm done arguing over obvious stuff. Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
No buddy, you are wrong. Intel fired Pat because of these GPUs. They need to be $500 to cover development cost and have any margin. They won't be selling many of these. They don't want to. Each sale hurts the company. They are canceling dGPU. Financial analyst are already reporting on it. If it's not profitable, it's gone. They have to try and save the company now.
@MooresLawIsDead yes the numbers don't lie, it has 17% to 20% better price to performance than their competitor 7600 and 4060. AMD is playing the same game as Nvidia. Their price for the 8800xt will be as bad as Nvidia they just follow nvidia. 8800xt will just be a 50 dollar disount on whatever Nvidia will charge for the 5070.
@tstager1978 He was fired due to the stock, and the stock being down has nothing to do with gaming GPU, they are relevant to wall street. Wall street doesnt care about your gaming GPUs. This is about foundry expenditures and AI. This is well publicized on wall street and has been the contention of investors for months.
Tom i think you forget something. There is no alternative in that pricepoint right now. You are going back like 2 generations but all the current stuff is over 100€ more expensive for me.
What did he say that was so bad? “Nobody wants it” is being misinterpreted as no consumers want it, when it’s clearly not what he meant. Nevermind all the other gripes people have because they’re thinking exclusively from a present moment consumers perspective, which doesn’t account for the corporate aspect of it. If they lose money on it at MSRP, and raising the price means no-body will purchase it… then it’s a bad product for the company.
This is what I thought after seeing his last video. He really is becoming the user benchmark of GPUs. His 80% worse comments that were outright wrong because they relied on incorrect mathematics were the last straw.
Tom, regarding your claims about ARC B580 not being cost effective to make, the largest bill of material costs would be the die and memory. Let’s do some actual numbers for those. The 5nm wafer price at TSMC is reportedly $16988. The die measurements by gamers nexus were 10.8mm by 25.3mm. That would give 214 dies per wafer at a cost of $79.38 each. Intel was so conservative with their engineering that they likely can use nearly all of them thanks to redundant circuitry in the dies to mitigage defects, so the price is $80 per die. The current gddr6 spot prices at dramexchange are $2.308 for a single 8Gbit IC. Getting to 12GB would cost $27.70 at that pricing. Intel would likely be using 16Gbit ICs, but the prices for 12GB of those are not likely much higher than for 8Gbit ICs and Intel can get bulk pricing, so they might actually pay less. That means the die and memory cost Intel $110. There is still is the PCB and other components, packaging, distribution, marketing, development costs (beyond those that were absorbed by iGPU development), etcetera to consider, but consider this… motherboards cost more than all of those additional costs yet some are sold profitably at $80 each, despite being bigger. Thus, we can estimate nearly all of the other costs to be $80. That puts the BOM costs, plus various others like assembly, distribution and marketing at $190. The only cost that we did not consider as part of the motherboard hack is the cost of the bundled game, which is probably around $10 as Intel gets a special rate for buying in bulk (much like how epic games does for their giveaways). Intel thus would have a 20% profit margin on these cards. It is low by industry standards, but it is definitely not a loss. Plus with economics of scale, the more they make, the cheaper they become to make. If Intel is not making a profit on these cards, it would be self inflicted from limiting production below the levels needed to build these profitably. I could see them having been hesitant to ramp production due to fear that it would be a market flop that they needed to write off like the alchemist cards, but they have a clear market success. There is no reason for them to not ramp production to make a profit.
No they aren't. Why do you think Pat got fired? They can't afford to sell many of these. It will bankrupt them. There won't be any more dgpu after this.
The data speaks for itself. Like I say at the end of the video - I'm done arguing over obvious stuff. Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
@@MooresLawIsDead CLEARLY you are NOT done arguing as you keep responding to comments all over this video trying to justify your bad take that is not inline with reality.
@@MooresLawIsDead The zombies are out in full force today O_O These idiots still haven't figured out that you're not a review channel (at least, most of your content are not reviews), and that the very different tone of your coverage of the B580 than reviews of the card do not actually indicate that you are disagreeing with the conclusion that the B580 is a good value to the consumer at 250 USD, because you are reporting on the engineering and business side of things. The people at review outlets are going to get VERY negative on Intel once it turns out that the B580 is extremely hard to find at 250 USD, assuming that's true. I suppose Intel might still choose to make enough of these to keep up with demand, allowing the cards to be relatively easy to find at 250 in some regions, but that would seem to be a pretty bad choice on Intel's part, and doesn't seem likely.
@@MooresLawIsDead Normally down with your takes, but comparing the B580 to a supposed 220 USD 3060 is just plain unfair. It was a refurb deal and should have triggered a red flag. Lowest non-refurb price is 30-ish percent higher at around 280 USD.
I've already ordered a b580, for my home server. It's not a type of usage that's typical for regular consumers, so the market size is small, but the b580 can really make a huge impact in that market if it doesn't run into unsolvable problems.
@@syncmonism Depends on a lot of factors, not everybody limits themselves to only the PPW and the one-time cost. Even something as simple as performing the same work but quicker despite a premium purchasing cost or even a lower PPW, is still better for certain areas. Which is where these niche intel GPUs can work really well, as long as there are no unsolvable problems that emerges, or compatibility issues that takes forever to be fixed.
@@ericbagley3613 Good will is what they need, so as long as it leads to good will then I'd count it as part of the marketing budget to subsidize those losses. Of course, I know they probably won't count it that way, but they really do need a winner right now, and if this GPU holds up then it can be a breath of fresh air.
@Joppi1992 what are you using this card for in a server setting? a gtx 1060 can easily do 1080p decoding and encoding for a PLEX server and for anything AI related a 3060 costs less and would do a similar job.
I won't argue about the gpu's technology, but I think you are greatly underrating the commercial appeal of this product. The number of people who want it is huge. First world parents with childrens who want a gaming pc for themselves, broke young people, and every third worlder on the planet from countries like Brazil or the Philippines who needs to save money for a year for a 4060. This has huge commercial success written on its forehead, and it was always very obvious.
Lol, Tom is so salty about the reviewers calling B580 a good deal. His predictions fell flat. Nvidia are not going to match this deal. AMD will have to drop the 7600xt to 250 to match Intel. 😂
@@MooresLawIsDeadWould those be the same predictions where you said the card would be 80% worse than the RTX 4070 Ti, either because you were making stuff up or you could not do math? Reality has it at 45% worse, for less than 1/3 of the price, and you would have known this had you done proper math.
It certainly isn’t alive if they’re losing money (or even just barely breaking even) on these cards. Hobbling from beating to beating (even if you’re hiding the bruises by selling at a loss) isn’t sustainable.
ARC will never fully die due to the iGPUs being a requirement for modern client CPUs. What we have now is an extreme far cry from what Intel claimed they would have. The ARC Pat wanted is dead, and what we have left is it on life support. Personally, I would love Intel to come into the GPU market with a full like up, but I’d rather they stay alive long enough to start making money from their fabs and fix their CPUs so AMD doesn’t become a monopoly in CPUs. This is simply opportunity cost. Intel could spend 1 billion (an example) on GPUs with no return for many years, or they could put that billion into fixing their CPUs and fabs
Gamers Nexus = Good price to performance Hardware Unboxed = Intel saves pc gaming Jayztwocents = Finally, a consumer friendly gpu Linus tech tips = Arc B580 is actually a great card MLID = Ok guys, lemme take a big wet creamy chocolatey dump all over intel's launch, lol God I love this guy!
@@andersjjensen Also why are none of the tech channels taking into account that Intel has been imploding slowly over years? It's a big disclaimer of: "oh btw this company might shit can its entire gaming GPU division and your drivers will suck" especially when new GPU's are around the corner and you can get comparable price to performance CURRENTLY from AMD/NVidia that aren't going anywhere. Its not worth saving 20$ to potentially have massive headaches in the future, people that buy this price range of GPU don't have money to set on fire, they'll probably keep it for a good while...
@@DebasedAnon For the same reason why GamersNexus didn't factor into their Alchemist review that the drivers could make big improvements, which they turned out to do anyway, because that wasn't certain. Also, even if they scrap their dGPU plans for the future, they will still need to support their iGPU, and with gaming APUs looking to seriously take over low end gaming laptops they will need to keep working on them. Focusing on price to performance is kind of pointless when one of the main factors going the B580's way is the price. If something costs twice as much for three the performance, it doesn't matter if the shopper only had the budget for B580/4060/7600. Drivers *may* potentially be an issue down the line, but the 8GB of VRAM from the 4060 and 7600 absolutely will be an issue.
@@DebasedAnon If you've been paying attention, many of them have. They don't have to shit on Intel in their review of a good-but-off-false-promises product this week. That's why you're here.
@@DebasedAnon What a butthurt comment. I've used Alchemist for over a year, it has only gotten better and a whole lot better I must say. Intel ARC is confirmed for 4th gen, 3rd gen hardware is already complete and aiming at high end enthusiasts with software team working on it. You're clearly a Radeon simp because even NVidia fanboys are not this toxic.
You verbally added to Source 8's comment that "based on BOM" this is a loss. Is it actually a BOM loss, or a loss based on planned volume vs overhead cost of the project and production? Because if this is a BOM loss for a company with as much pull, status, and experience as Intel, then it's 100% a skill issue. Also, they could have easily priced these as $279 and sold tnem just as easily. Especially if they are still not sure if there will be a 750 or 770/970
I have tried to explain economics of scale to him repeatedly. He just ignores it and pretends economics of scale do not exist. He made a remark that if they are losing $20 a card now, producing 10 million cards would make them lose $200,000,000, which could not be more wrong. If they scaled up production that much, they would definitely get substantial cost savings versus whatever they paid for the initial production run. Having their total costs decrease by $50 or more per card would be possible. In such a scenario, a $20 loss per card would become a $30+ profit. It would not be Nvidia levels of profit or even AMD levels of profit, but it would be a profit that the company needs.
@@richardyao9012 they don't really benefit the same way from scale as they aren't the ones manufacturing the chips. They are just buying them from TSMC, and it's unlikely they are getting any better deals on the number of chips because that allocation/order would have been made long ago and wouldn't be that flexible when it comes to the number they can produce. They may when it comes to the total production of the card, but even there they are contracting with another company to build the GPUs and economics of scale rarely increase linearly. Their costs per unit will likely remain the same unless something very abnormal happens or TSMC drops their wafer pricing and they put in a huge additional order which would be unlikely at this late phase. Intel's main benefit of this card is in terms of mindshare, not really marketshare
Intel is definitely selling at loss after R&D and support, but it's not true that the more Intel sells, the more loss they make. Quick napkin maths BOM is actually close to $230. The chip itself is about $115 to make, plus $40 GDDR6, $75 for the card and logistics which leaves Intel with no operational margin after retailer's cut.i
Let's state the facts: The B580 has good price/performance compared to existing offerings at MSRP and good VRAM capacity. Software instabilities seem to be mostly fixed though some issues are still being ironed out. Volumes are and will be low since Intel seems to be losing money on each entry (according to you). RDNA 4 might launch soon(TM) but of course, AMD will shoot themselves in the foot as usual with pricing. Conclusion: The B580 is a good buy around MSRP though it might be hard to find due to low volume. RDNA4 might match it in price/performance, but no guarantees given AMDs track record. This should have been the conclusion to your video. Not some random shit about Intel slides and high-end offerings.
It's not a high end card. It was never meant to be. But it's a servicable card that will run games on a budget at a VERY respectable rate in it's price to performance. And if they DO keep hitting their driver boosts, it DOES look like it could be great. Obviously it's not going to dethrone cards in price brackets well above it, but for what it is, it is still an appealing card.
An appealing card if it’s sold for MSRP… If it is, the vendor makes a loss, if it isn’t, no-one will purchase it because it’s not worth it. Such is the situation I suppose.
8% price to performance more than a $220 3060 12GB is decent considering the 3060 12GB doesn't go for that low brand new. i'm happy the B580 is being positively reviewed, i'll pick one up in the future for collection purposes. it's a good product, sure Intel might not be making good margins, it might be using too much silicon but that doesn't matter to the customer. $250 is great, it probably will go up for AIB models. be anything under $280 is still a decent enough deal especially considering the 4060 never drops in price.
Your conclusion is wrong because your data is wrong. Techpowerup used $220 for it's calculation. I have NEVER seen the 12GB 3060 for any less than $265.... and it is currently $280. So with the correct cost estimate of a new 3060($270)... the B580 is 24% better value.. not 8%. I agree with you that finding it at that price may be difficult. But if you can get it at $250 it actually IS a great value... unless you can point me in the direction of a brand new $220 12GB 3060. I mean... did you draw over the 220 because you new it was wrong and it undermined your point? lol jk you wouldn't do that.
Tom, I hear what you're saying. but be careful not to demonize your audience, you WILL loose that battle. Calling everyone crazy (even if it's warranted) makes you perceived as crazy by everyone.
1:06 That's not even a valid argument, there are no new 3060's for $220, cheapest is $280, a whole 27% more expensive, which would drop it very far down in that perf/$ chart. Same goes for the 3070 @ $320, there is no 3070 for $320, idk where these numbers are even coming from, I'm guessing they're taking the average used ebay price?
Over here in the EU, the B580 is above 300 euros. Around that money you can also also get a 4060 or from AMD even a 6750XT (€329 on Mindfactory). I could not even find a listing for the B580 on Mindfactory. I saw one listing for the €299 base model on Caseking, but without availability. All in all, I personally have to agree with Tom. If I was the target group for this card, I would probably spend a couple of euros more for a competition product. Simply because of the driver support and also because of the fact that that nobody knows the future of the intel graphics sector. There is a new management that needs to save money. The graphics business is currently a lossy business. I would not blindly rely on Tom Petersen’s statements that they are likely to continue.
This is the FIRST card since 2018 that I have considered that is actually priced where i want it. Still using RX 590 due to greed and poor performance both from AMD and Nvidia. This card will do very well for people that are not ok with buying an overpriced new card every generation or 2. This card is priced at the same level the RX 590 was, in 2018. Which means they are probably selling it at a loss.
I had a RX580 and ended up buying a RX 5700 second hand, I know the feeling both these cards are 200w, and any sort of replacement requires a PSU upgrade or case upgrade because every card is bloody huge and power hungry these days, plus I'm not a huge fan of my room getting super hot and noisy during the summer. I remember when people thought 2 300w SLI GPUs was crazy, and now we got cards pulling 500w by themselves.
@@woobilicious. Haha, I did SLI 770's and then SLI 980ti's. Then singular 1080ti, then to 6700XT. Can't believe my 1000w from back then still works today
A quote comes to mind that might help you Tom. "I suggest a new strategy R2, let the wookie win!" At some point you have to admit you are wrong with your predictions and personal feelings about Arc. You're just making yourself look a bit stupid by continuing your rants about it. Are all the other reviewers really wrong and you are correct?! And BTW, fps/$ is irrelevant when the price is low enough on a brand new decent GPU with plenty of good features.
@@ModjoGaming Your IQ is diminishing. Intel fired Pat because of this situation. Intel can't afford to sell these. Go read what financial analyst are saying about Intel. They are in real trouble. Arc is canned after this.
@@MooresLawIsDead And every NVIDIA and AMD launch had plenty of stock, let alone their 2nd gen product line? Tom, you need to take your dog for a walk under the stars and clear your head. Most "sources" at vendors are sources because they are either disgruntled employees or junior-level people trying to stir things up. Historically, you have good content, but the negativity (not just for Intel and/or BMG) lately has really become tiresome. You can do better.
Alternate DE has the AsRock in stock for 304€. Proshop thr Sparkle 3-fan one for 319€. The weird acer card with the whacky fan design is on pre-order. The official design is nowhere to be found.
@@hyperturbotechnomike I saw limited edition yesterday in Poland at 323€ before I went sleep. It's not even sold out, I was completely removed from the store. Other cards will be replenished in a week or so.
I'm gonna be honest, you've lately been sounding like you WANT Battlemage to fail and it's unusually mean-spirited of you Not gonna go "HOW DARE YOU GO AFTER THE MULTIBILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION!!!” or anything, just not used to this level of cynicism
It already failed. Yes it looks good for the price but Intel can't afford to sell it at that price. They need it to be around $500 to be profitable and cover r&d. Its not worth $500
@tstager1978 You gotta stop posting the same nonsense everywhere You also completely missed the point of my comment. Regardless or not of it failing, he's acting uncharacteristically nasty. He went from "lol guys I've already said this is wrong before" to "wow how could anyone possibly think like this? god, what absolute dumbos"
Anyone noticed that his replies to comments and just a copy and paste effort?😂 Great way to converse with your community. From scrolling through the comments seems like you are being called out/found out that your "sources" are maybe manufactured lies that are way off the mark this time and instead of taking the "L" your are doubling down. Speaks volumes of your integrity or lack of.
The data speaks for itself. Like I say at the end of the video - I'm done arguing over obvious stuff. Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
Arc is dead and is playing out just like he said it would. There won't be anymore Arc after these. Intel doesn't want to go bankrupt. You can read about it in business news.
@@Thee_Sinner I'm actually surprised to see this many replies from him even if they are all copy/paste that's far more than usual. And 100% more than some tech channels do 🤣🤣
Lol so many sour grapes. Hear the whining in the last chapter. Dude can't even get over it got good reviews and had to cancel the Thursday video because he had to come up with something bad to say.
The data speaks for itself. Like I say at the end of the video - I'm done arguing over obvious stuff. Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
You don't get it. Intel can't afford to sell these at this price. They are in trouble. $500 is the real price to cover R&D and a small margin. This isn't a good card at that price.
Its disappointing that Tom cant see pass a haze of hubris. The B580 is good for the market and a good value proposition for the customer, at the same time Intel are gaining mind and marketshare, using an increase in users to bolster drivers and support for the next time round. Its a decent card with really encouraging frame gen tech. The doom, gloom and FUD is only increasing on this channel and its getting tiring.
Good for the market and good for intel is not the same thing. What I want to know is what it costs intel to manufacture each card. Is it breaking even or making money.
It is baffling to me that someone would continue to whine and deflect blame instead of just admitting they were wrong about their opinion. You're not an industry expert or an analyst Tom, and no one expects your analysis to be accurate. You just report on what you hear from some anonymous people on the internet and they can be wrong as well.
The data speaks for itself. Like I say at the end of the video - I'm done arguing over obvious stuff. Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
Go read up on Intel in the financials. Intel can't afford to sell these. They fired Pat over it. Tom's assessment is accurate. You are the one who is wrong. The truth is there shouldn't be any decent GPU at this price because they aren't profitable. The b580 needs to be $500 to be profitable and cover R&D. Nobody wants it at that price.
@@MooresLawIsDead copy pasting the same replies everywhere , youve lost the plot 😂 . “Bmg effectively cancelled” not sure what you and your bootlicking community gain from hating on actual competition?
hei don't say that he will take it to heart, he thinks he is industry expert, let him believe what he believes its bad to say all these at his tender age , stunts the mental development and he will turn out to be a failure when becomes adult.......btw look at this guy go , copy pasting comments so pathetic, i never felt sorry for someone like him.......there is time and moment to back off and admit they're wrong but this guy noooooo hahahah
You sing AMD's praises and complain about Intel's low supply at launch. When AMD launched the 5950X CPU there were literally 2 delivered to a singular distributor whom I was lucky to have an account with. They were also sold WAY above MSRP. And were not resupplied globally in a meaningful way for at least 6~24 months depending what model you wanted. People were running bots so they could buy Zen3 CPUs when they were in stock online. Nvidia is also notorious for low supply at launch for many products. So showing Intel's low supply at launch doesn't differentiate it from AMD or Nvidia.
😂😂😂 You will have to work harder to create a negative perception of Intel GPU attempts. The hardware is stellar, and the drivers will only get better. Intel made the right decision when it comes to supply. Let's be honest NVIDIA and AMD still have a significant mindshare. It will take another generation to really start clawing mindshare from the well established dominant players.
I've got 7 friends now who already bought it at MSRP prices in Europe (+VAT of course) and it's still available in some websites across EU. End user does not care about the efficiency of the die size if the card performs well in it's price segment and have enough VRAM which B580 checks both of those things. I also hope that this will impact the upcoming RX8600 either it's price or better yet it's VRAM and bus width if they can still change those.
Dunno about all this pessimism about Battlemage when it's the first breath of fresh air in GPU market for a long time. The price to performance is top tier and Intel is working hard on drivers and reportedly solving game compatibility issues daily. It's as close to a no brainer for entry level build that we have gotten in years.
Battlemage isn't going to affect RDNA4 or Blackwell pricing, because Intel aren't going to make many of them. They literally can't, because Intel isn't making any money off of them. If the volume isn't high, then AMD and Nvidia won't see it as a threat at all. There's a lot more to competition than just price to performance.
I wouldnt totally count it out, the press is so positive over a $250 card with more than 8gb. I can see amd wanting to get in on that positivity even if Intel isnt actually making enough cards to matter. Nvidia though, I would be surprised if they respond to anything other than a slam dunk from Amd.
But reviewers will pretend Battlemage is available and compare to it's price point. So we are about to get another generation met with huge negativity. But the fact of the matter is that GPU dies are massively bigger than CPUs at the same price point. And that's before taking into consideration that GPUs pack half a motherboard's worth of components and however much VRAM.
this ^ the glaze that's coming from reviewers like linus is crazy, and is all BS to force AMD/Nvidia to drop prices too so they don't get compared to a MSRP that is as BS as the ones during the crypto craze
@@andersjjensen agreed. reviewers just review what's in front of them. B580 is good and all, but Intel is not making money out of it at all and the more they sell the more detrimental it will be for intel haha.
It's pretty simple: when MLID _quotes_ sources, that's fine, but when he _opines_ with his typically delusional nonsense, it's invariably wrong... His ego is completely out of control now, extremely off-putting and kind of pathetic.
Before the first gen of arc was launched, when you were rooting for it. you said a lot of times that it was clear that Intel needed several generations of cards to close the gap with the competitors. We knew that. GPUs are complicated things, and so it was expected that the road would have been bumpy for Intel. So why it looks like you're deliberately ig oring this fact and judging Intel as they have constantly made discrete cards for decades, instead of seeing a clear progress in the second gen? Also, it's clear that Intel has massive interest in having a piece of the pie of the GPU market, and not just because of gaming, but even more for the AI market, while you're keeping pushing this idea that Intel should quit building GPUs, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. Even if in trouble, Intel has all the interest in pushing in this direction
There is enough stock in Australia, we still have all the major outlets with stock, although the Limited Edition is OOS at some outlets. Pricing is AUD$449 which is about right. USD$250 = AUD$393 + 10% tax = $432.30. The rest would be freight & import costs. Now, when they do sell out then the question is how long it will take to restock.
no wonder, every single Australian I have ever spoken to have a boner for Nvidia so massive they even respond with disgust if I dare mention an AMD gpu
People are so desperate for Intel to be successful they don't understand that you can't sell products at a loss while your company is failing to compete in all market segments. If Intel was serious about Battlemage they would have the entire lineup out now so they can take buyers from AMD and Nvidia.
Selling a product at an initial loss is pretty standard for gaining market share and relevance to its consumers. Amazon didn't make profits for a long time and sold at a loss early in their days.
Would be cool if you actually for once admitted that you were wrong. I think you put out decent content but theres nothing wrong with being wrong sometimes.
@@richardyao9012 Wait and see man. I hope I'm wrong. I want Intel to succeed. They are in real trouble though and I don't believe they can afford to sell many of these. If I'm wrong, I'll happily admit it.
wow he really doesnt like Intel graphics right? Intel never said they would compete high end, they said they would compete with and beat the RTX 4060 and this is exactly what they did. They also said the Intel card would be a limited edition with a limited run, and guess what? It was. This card was designed to provide a decent £250 (here in the UK) graphics card thats great for 1080 and some 1440 with reasonable ray tracing. They did exactly what they said they would do. Comparing the £250 B580 to the £1600 RTX 4090 is just snobbish.
All you do anymore is talk about yourself and how wonderful your prior predictions were. It's past time to check your hyper-inflated ego at the door and get back to making interesting, informative material.
Past? I reference videos that are only weeks old here lol. I'll never understand the chip some people have on their shoulders about trying to simply catch people up on recent developments.
@@tstager1978Usually when only 1 person can see something, what he sees only exists in his head, and it is time to get professional psychiatric help. Saying that only he can see it is not helping him. If you are Tom’s second account, then Tom definitely needs help.
Definitely an out of touch take. It is 8% faster. With 12GB vram instead of 8GB, which means a lot going into the future. and the 8% is raster only, when looking at RT it is better.
Gibbo OCUK "More Sparkle are due next week hopefully. Good launch with over 500 cards sold in first 24hr so a huge uplift for Intel." "Asrock will hopefully arrive within next 1-2 weeks." "The Sparkle Titans are in stock, we have had 300 land, all back orders are shipping and we have around 150 in free stock." (before they then sold out).
I watched a couple of the positive reviews for this card, and was happy to see that it is much more consistent than alchemist. I am surprised that none (at least that I watched) seemed concerned about supply. This thing has a die almost twice the size of a 4060 with 50% more memory... there's was never any way it was going to be very profitable at $250 if at all.
Reviews should account the size of the die if it’s unusual. Like if it’s too small, then they are ripping you off. Vice versa, if it’s too big at a too cheap of a price you have to wonder if it’s even realistically going to be a regular launch or a paper launch. Too bad it’s too arbitrary to realistically do.
@@Javier64691 The reviews don't have to look at that, but it would be good if they could. The consumer doesn't need to know whether the company is making money on it or not, but it could help to give an indication of how good the long-term support for the product will be. However, aside from that, it's not the customer's problem if Intel is selling them at a loss.
@@rotm4447 yeah Nvidia is definitely milking the 4060 and the 40 series in general. That said, Pat gelsinger famously ruined Intel's favorable pricing with tsmc, so I doubt they're getting a better deal than Nvidia, and as greedy as Nvidia can be, I doubt they're getting over 100% margin on the 4060. I'll be happy to eat my words if the b580 comes back into stock soon at MSRP, but I'm not holding my breath. Tom may be a bit pessimistic about Intel, but honestly I feel his pain. It's really disappointing seeing Intel floundering like this. I want there to be healthy competition in the GPU space and the CPU space, and Intel just keeps falling further behind it feels like. Here's hoping Celestial makes big gains next gen, and Arc doesn't get canned.
I purchased a b580 card and plan on using it in my spare rig, paired with a 11900k I found used for a killer price. I'm excited to see what It can and can't do. Should be quite the improvement compared with the m2000 single slot card now.
It's a sad state for the market, when the B580 (day late, dollar short, etc) is actually competitive. But at this point, any competition is better than none. Hopefully AMD takes the lesson from this that we want. But IF Tom's sources are right, and this is a low volume launch, then it'd be easy for AMD to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. Which would really suck, because a more competitive AMD is the only hope we have of reigning in Nvidia at least a little bit.
This isn't even that impressive of a generational uplift in value per dollar over previous gen graphics cards, and Intel can't afford/ can't justify making a lot of these because of how much they're losing on each one they sell. From the standpoint of the consumer, it's still good, as Tom also said, because it can still put some pricing pressure on AMD and Nvidia, even if the B580 is hard to find. It will show up in a lot of review comparisons, and that alone will put some pressure on AMD and Nvidia. That being said, it shouldn't be difficult at all for AMD to release something significantly better than the 7600 and 7600 XT in terms of value per dollar, and Intel's pricing for the B580 may well not make a difference, but we'll probably never know if it affects AMD's pricing decisions for RDNA4 cards or not.
I agree that the B580 LE seems to be a good GPU at $249 MSRP, and that could be nice to have it in a budget built (with a CPU like the 7600, etc.). Anyway, once the RX 8600 and the 5060 are available, it's going to be interesting, I guess, to make some comparisons, especially on recent games. Thanks for the video. 😊 Have a nice week-end!
I think the issue here is this : tom look at this from bussines/techonological angle looking in the future (knowing the leaks) while most people looks at this "its christmas i wanna play now, this card is cheap enough and do the job for most ppl around the world that stay on 1080. so i wanna buy it.
The data speaks for itself. Like I say at the end of the video - I'm done arguing over obvious stuff. Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
Why do you think Pat got fired? I'll tell you that these GPUs that have to be sold at a loss are a big part of it. Arc is canned after this. There will be no more dgpu. Anything that isn't profitable is being cut. Pat spent Intel into the ground. Business analysts are already reporting on it!
Are you REALLY going to accuse him of "Going down the wrong path" just because he isn't telling you what you want to hear? Seriously? He is stating what his contacts are telling him, and the data he was given. The sheer desperation for Tom to be wrong is truly astonishing.
Tom, you assume that the cost would remain the same if Intel made 10 million cards. The cost would go down due to lower component costs (because of volume purchases) and assembly line efficiencies that a large volume creates.
Not trying to say you were wrong, you are right I’d say 75-80% of the time. (You were right about Battlemages performance, I just think that your take was a bit more negative than it is, and a bit negative about its efficiency, it’s better than I expected). The B580 is definitely overall better than you suggested it would be. Your performance estimate is within 5-10% of what it is. I would say it’s pretty damn disruptive to the market. For $250 it beats the 7600 by quite a bit and has 50% more VRAM, and beats the 4060 while costing less. I hope Intel makes more of these and continues to develop the B770. We NEED more competition in the GPU market. Nvidia is going mad with prices, giving you less for more. The 4060 is literally a 4050, it’s AD107 which the 107 has always been the 50 class card. Nvidia nerfed every single tier except for the 4090 (they even nerfed the 4090 a bit TBH), giving the 4070 a smaller memory bus, making the 4060 Ti a 4060 configuration instead of a cut down 70 class. The 4070 Ti was going to be the 4080 12 GB even though it’s just literally the fully unlocked 4070 (AD104). A 192-bit 4080 would have been insane. It seems that Blackwell is going to be the same but even worse than Lovelace was. I’m waiting for the 8800XT for my 9800X3D I just picked up. I hope that Battlemage stays at MSRP and I love your videos by the way! Also, I do believe that the B580 is not going to change the market if they can’t stay in stock or if they are being produced at a loss. Competition is really good for us.
@MooresLawIsDead yes, I edited my comment. I know and acknowledged you were right about its performance in my edit. I meant when you said its efficiency and overall outlook/competitiveness. I was super excited when I saw B580s performance in the reviews. Great video by the way! You were correct about the super low stock.
The "is not enthusiast class" horse has reincarnated at least a couple of times. The B580 looks actually good at that price. Too bad it looks like there's not going to be a lot of supply...
I didn't. The biggest store in my country in Europe doesn't have any and the others say "supply at distributer" which means they don't have any in their own warehouse and are hoping that Intel or other card company will deliver it to them soon.
most of the info provided by the leaks in this video is on par with what Tom Petersen from Intel said a week ago, so why all the back lash? Supply was confirmed lower then Archmage(at least for B580), Card is confirmed as being sold at a loss by Intel ("gift to gamers" was the term used by Tom Petersen when this was discussed). Because supply is low, they will not really make a dent in Nvidia and AMD market share, so of course they will not really have any reason to lower prices on future GPU generation. And to top all that up, as a general rule in any market, low supply and high demand leads in the end to higher prices so... unless Intel defies all common practices of a free market, I highly doubt Battlemage will remain at MSRP for long (when and if they are available) which will destroy the entire price/performance calculation from release if that happens. I guess we will have to wait and see how things play out.
Enough commenters are mentioning it.... I don't need to re-state the obvious, but yeah.... we know where we'll never hear about it from when Intel does something good....
Mlid always succed to crack me up...lol... I always come to the channel when my mood goes south - and it works !... I still remember the Mlid's video that Intel canceled the Arc - and generally their gpu - project... lol...
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oh come on, not another salty arc battlemage video... this is getting so petty
MLID, I've recently upgraded my 2060. After looking at the market and a myriad of reviews, benchmarks, tier lists and product specifications I made my choice. I decided on a used 2080ti. The 2080ti was advertised as a FE for £300, I'm not sure if you will be familiar with the shop, it was CEX and came with a 5 year warranty that I reached out to customer services to provide more details about. The 2080ti and 4060ti 16gb perform almost identically, with the 60ti pricing between £400-£500~.
I am very happy with my purchase. It was the dream card when I made my first PC with the 2060. Having 11GB of VRAM against the 8GB my budget tended to limit me to was essential considering trends. The card that arrived was the ROG Strix, instead of the founders edition advertised. that was the icing on the cake. I have stress tested it and ran it daily with a new monitor so I could appreciate fully. Thermals are about what they should be when it was new, no crashing, coil whine or fan noise so far. The card hadn't been refurbished by the shop or in its lifetime from what I can tell, so stock thermal pads. I am willing to do this, in the future, with good putty and/or an AIO mod/water block.
Before the B580, there was nothing anywhere close to the value at that price. I had been pondering whether I should have held out, seeing the performance benchmarks. I'm curious, what is your opinion on my choice? I was moving towards increasing my budget to make sure I had a competent 1440p card that wouldn't be redundant like 8GB cards are shaping up to be. Experiencing a couple of expensive or unfixable, age related faults (referencing the warranty policy,) will be how I earn regret and pain. I feel its unlikely, with technologies like frame generation/dlss3, barely, being the shortfalls I notice first.
I appreciate the video very much for grounding, the salt and cognitive dissonance is hilarious to see from some. Keep up the amazing work dude.
p.s. I'm running a ryzen 3600x with an eye to upgrade to the 3800x3d/3950x3d/5800x3d in the near future. do you have any advice? there is only a very small bottleneck if any currently.
Salt salt salt. If you admit you were wrong, I'm sure Intel will. Neither will happen. Ironic.
Is it worth waiting for a new gpu upgrade around $450-$500?
I have a feeling next year's gpus won't launch until April
My respect for your opinions & Journalism has drop like parts of a Boeing. You have made it explicitly clear that you hate Intel's involvement in GPU's & think the product is garbafe. And you have taken like a man, disenjeniously, attempting to weasel out of your mistake, having a huge tantrum about how you said first, basically anything to bigup your ego and massage your. Rather than sticking to your guns, my opinion is this there opinion is that but I might be wrong. You drcide, but that would take guts that you don't have. But that's my opinion, you can tell me to f off and maybe you're right & I'm wrong
Bro is slowly going down the Userbenchmark route but for Intel instead. 😬
For every yin....there is a yang....
Ok Tom calm down... I agree with the premise but calling Star Wars Outlaws a "popular game" is incredibly generous to say the least, all time peak Steam players is under 2.5k...
Correct, but the card also has issues on the new Indiana Jones, and have worse 1% and 0.1% lows than the RX 7600 in most games at 1080p according to Gamers Nexus tests.
@@gustavoalmeida1579 what about 1080p with ray tracing
@@420247paul Better RT than AMD 7600, worse than 4060, but in the end only matters for very basic RT at this performance level, like in Indiana Jones, that runs with issues in this card.
The only people who are playing that terrible game, got it for free with their AMD 7000 series processor.
yes calm down u little fkkr
Come on, that $220 3060 street price is a refurbished model on newegg.
and we all know how that went with motherboards @GamersNexus
Spin so the narrative matches his worldview.
The B580 outperforms the a770 - which replaced my RTX 3060.
use the 6650 xt then.
he also misrepresented the cyberpunk issue, it's only a problem with systems using the new 9800 x3d
0:58 The 3060 12Gb is currently $280, making it 72% the performance per dollar of the B580, 28% behind the B580, not 8% as you said. It wouldn't have even fit on the chart if placed accurately.
"The data speaks for itself" except it's bad data and/or you're misinterpreting it.
12:29 Even according to the GN stats you reference, the 3060($280) is still 20% behind the performance per dollar of the B580($250).
According to PC Part Picker, $280 is the current price, with the two year lowest being $255, which would still only place it at 79% on your list, 21% behind the B580.
It wasn't your publication, but if you're going to cite it to prove a point, at least do your viewers the courtesy of checking it makes sense beforehand.
Pricing for obsolete cards is all over the place, so you can always make the data fit your argument. I think two things can be right at the same time: Intel can have a well-priced card that has little to no competition, as AMD and nVidia skimp on RAM at this price point. But it can also be a product that that is no quantum leap in performance and that AMD and nVidia can easily compete with if they wanted to. The 7700 XT has less die size, yet sells for $400. AMD would probably just about break even at $280 or $300. So no way is Intel making money at $250. If AMD wanted to enter a ruinous price war, they'd have a product that blows Intel out of the water. Conclusion: The Intel card is sold at a loss intentionally. That's not the same as having a technogically advanced product that can be solder cheaper, because it does the same thing with fewer resources.
This dude hates intel plain and simple for AMD and Nvidia he gives good takes but no matter what intel says he is going to hate on them plain and simple.
@@imperatortriston2353 Let's be honest: What Intel did over the last year with drivers, XeSS and software in general was amazing. They built their own modern graphics IP up from bascially scratch (that old Intel HD Graphics nonsense is lightyears behind ARC) and are now better positioned in the laptop space, where they can now offer APUs / SoCs that can rival Apple and AMD. There are many reasons to heap praise on intel. But as a competitor in the Gaming sector, this design does not work, as there is no path to profits here for Intel. If AMD is not getting rich with Radeon, the economics for Intel do not work, if they sell a 15% larger die for over 30% less money. Maybe they will with Celestial or Druid.
According to my gut data Battlemage is great from the start and drivers are still going to improve. The launch price won't be 250 forever and it will come down. The 3060 won't likely be supported with new DLSS features (frame gen is already missing and texture compression may be RTX 50 exclusive).
Meanwhile Battlemage has the full array of "AI" techs, solid RT (for what it matters in this price class) and more than enough VRAM for 1080p gaming.
My gut summary is that we may have a "new RX 480 8GB like card" in front of us and I am considering to buy it once availability in Europe improves.
@meckerhesseausfrankfurt4019Exactly. I got my 6700XT for $200 CAD (roughly $140-150 USD at the time) from a crypto miner dumping all his hardware. Pretending like my singular purchase represents the rest of the used market is ridiculous
10:30 "nobody really wants it, except customers that saw good reviews" so like... a lot of people?
Linus was even hyping it up on WAN show tonight. When I find one in stock, I'm grabbing one for my living room PC.
@@aelderdonian Bro I am sorry but Linus is a paid shill. How u think he can keep affording to setup his new "project" building.
@@thegamingbros3282 😂😂😂 he’s trying SOOO hard isn’t he? How does he edit this bs and be like “yea, this sounds good. Run it!” It’s hilarious.
@@aelderdonian linus who?
@@Humanaut. Just some guy with 16 million subscribers, you wouldn't know him.
Hardware unboxed: B580 saves PC gaming industry
Jays2Cents: Excellent value
Hardware Canucks: Excellent value
Jays2cents: excellent value
Gamers Nexus: Excellent value
Level 1 tech: excellent value
Etc
Etc
Etc
No under 4/5 star reviews in the internet.
That's cool but it doesn't really contradict Tom's position.
@@AlphaConde-qy7viright, like as much as I want intel to do well, and much as I've waited for battlemage launch... Tom is right, there is no supply, and rly at 250$ for its performance yes its a decent deal, but the driver support isn't there yet for most average ppl to game that don't have back up systems to just swap pcs when got an issue. Like I build systems for ppl, I upgrade ppls systems, do repairs, I've had a bunch of customers asking me about these and I keep telling them same thing unless you doing bunch video editing and media workloads and gaming isn't as important to you, great budget option, but purely gaming and not software savvy. Cannot recommend they get them yet. Let alone have you tried to buy one? Most places are over 300$ rn cuz they got like no stock
Not to mention. Rx 7600 was decent jump on rx 6600, the rx 8600 holds that trend around 300$ its going to crush it
It really IS excellent value. For something I can't buy.
Because it's compared with cards that came out two or more years ago. In a few months time it'll be competing with 5050 and 8600 that will have similar performance and price.
Also, if you look at the specs. B580 is made on the same node as 4060Ti but has bigger die size and lower density, running weaker and consuming more power. While it is a good value for consumers, it's actually very bad for Intel. It cost more to make and it's architecturally worse than previous gen design from its competitors.
Mega "250$" value gpu. IF you can find it, 340+ Bucks, before tax.
Marketed for 1440p with RT -> Cannot even launch a 5 year old game Cyberpunk. If you don't turn on Fake frames and Fake resolution you get 20fps.
Card cannot even run a bottom of the F-tier "gaming" monitors at the marketed performance 1440p+RT. I could not find a "gaming" marketed monitor in stock
Tom , we as consumer we do not care about road maps of multi billion dollars companies. We understand your frustration with Intel, but if Intel said : "We f****d up" they would have problems with the investors. Hopefully we will have future products like B580 which can poke Nvidia & AMD in low end.
Thats not how business works! Lol. Intel shareholders don't care about you. They fired Pat. Arc is being cancelled. They have to try and save the company. Pat spent them into the ground. Anything not making a profit which includes covering R&D cost is gone. It's already being reported by business analysts.
I agree. I'm not particularly informed on this but it never really rang true that intel would have legal issues with their roadmap, even as quickly as it became obvious bs. They always cover their back on these things with every statement they make.
Hopefully the adage that the last 10% is the hardest part is true and Intel can get to 90% of what AMD are doing relatively quickly so ARC is sustainable. If Intel can keep ARC going I don't think there is anything to rival the opportunity cost of discrete graphics right now (other than the survival of Intel itself).
@@tstager1978 well then maybe it's the shareholders plus the middle management that has ruined intel? Pat getting fired as a scapegoat but god damn do these major shareholders not understand tech at all.
@@numnuts44 how would intel or any company have problems, not adhering to a roadmap? Roadmap especially in tech is like a wishlist, look at electric cars, over 10 years of promises and there's still no replacement for toxic, heavy and inefficient lithium batteries. A tech innovation roadmap certainly cannot be legally binding.
@@tstager1978 Pat should have been leading the company when they had money to burn and not keep launching 4 cores with hyper threading for obscene prices and keep same 14 nm node. I think they should make 1-2 days every few years. Funny thing is that their new version of upscale technology is quite good compared FSR 2.0. They should not let die the gpu division but they need to keep making money somehow.
Dude - it's OK to say "I was wrong!" at some point, and your replies to people on here has been less than professional.
It's OK to believe the false prophet from intel
@1:30
Whoa whoa whoa, hold on. Being unable to play Star Wars Outlaw is a feature, not a bug. I'm surprised Intel missed the opportunity to put that on the box as a selling point.
my my do i have a concord to sell u
Driver issues are still a thing, unfortunately.
@@TitanPlakInsideHow do you prefer me telling you?
- The classic Joke
Your Head.
- /r/woosh
- Or something else.
It’s not that BAD, only bad thing is being developed by Ubisoft, but in reality is decent or at least okay. People who actually have it a shot said it’s a decent game, it’s just that people don’t want to touch an Ubisoft game, rightfully so.
@@Javier64691 I'd actually buy some Ubisoft games on sale, but not when they're loading everything up with drm and mandating their 3rd party launcher.
Tom can't admit he was wrong about Arc being cancelled, Celestial is already done, and Intel is already working on Druid
Intel won’t last until Celestial launches. Intel is bleeding $ billions per year. ARL is a joke. LNL is being sold at a loss. Without a profit, how will Intel last?
I did not see Arc go anywhere.... if they wanted to kill it they would have not bothered with this continuus driver support and they would have not kept developing XeSS 2.
Arc may miss a discrete midrange GPU in the next generation or 2 however I think that Arc will go on and Intel will always have a new Arc generation at least in their iGPUs and handhelds even if they do not think that a discrete GPU makes sense for that specific moment in the future.
I am happy that Arc is here to stay!
Bro is intel's ARChenemy
If Gamers Nexus says the price to performance is decent then that means its good. He is generally the most critical of Arc while having the best interviews with Tom Petersen. I was critical myself until it out performed the 7600 in most games at 1080 Ultra settings, which is the only settings I use at 1080p. I think the B580 will do well for a while and it shouldn't take much more than 2 weeks for Cyberpunk to work in Ultra RT mode. I don't have a single Intel component in my system, AMD through and through, but Intel wins this one boys.
So then why would you even watch this channel?
It doesn't matter if it's good or not. Intel can't afford to sell it. It will bankrupt them. Do you think Pat got fired for no reason?
Whether intel makes any margin on this means nothing to buyers and hence reviewers. At msrp it is indeed a half decent product comparing to the street price, if it works in your games of course. Though it has to be said that battlemage is definitely more usable than alchemist at launch.
@@tstager1978 Thats a received opinion from other tech channels telling you you need to be a pay pig for one of two Taiwanese people.
Cause i like to watch him mald lol...
@@PaulHenning84
If you know basic math.. you know that the performance per dollar of B580 is much more than 8% over the 4060.
This guy is just paid to diss Intel.
@@natjimoEU well if you are in Eu i'm not 100% sure it is. Probably it is the same or less than a current 4060. 4060 in eu goes for 270 euro. B580 in eu goes for 320-330 euro. so it is 50-60 euro difference which is 20% of the price for a 10-15% performance boost. So it is not a better value and it also might have issues with drivers. In America at 250$ while the 4060 stays at 290-299 $ it is a better value but still will have driver issues and you also have to remember that people ACTUALLY buy brands and not performance ( especially in the low end ) and the most famous and reliable brand is surely nvidia.
@@hydrus5252an actual intelligent person
Overclockers in the the U.K received plenty of stock. 150 LE cards shipped. 200 more next week. And hundreds of AIB cards were available. AWD-IT also had stock
The statement “nobody really wants it” kinda falls flat when so many people want it Intel can’t make enough because it’s at a loss. Clearly there is latent demand for a 3rd competitor especially one who takes price seriously whether or not that’s a circumstance or not. In Intel’s best interest to get this cost effective ASAP for future generation which I know we don’t like talk of.
You can’t play the price game against Nvidia for too long . AMD has done it for far too long and just loses in the end.
The truth is its a decent offering for Intel except for the fact that they can't afford to sell it. Intel is in real trouble whether you choose to believe it or not. Nobody would want it if it were offered at a price that is profitable for Intel like $500.
@@ZAGAN-OZ At some point when 18A is ready Intel has internal foundry. Which means they have a better shot at the war of attrition than AMD or Nvidia if they get the design right.
No *seller* wants it, in context it’s fairly obvious that’s what he meant.
It’s either they sell at higher then MSRP, which makes it undesirable, or they sell at a loss… which defeats the purpose.
*Nobody wants it*
@tstager1978 Even at $300 it doesn't shake up the market.
Lot's of stock here in Sweden at 300 euro inc. taxes. Getting my b580 today.
Congratulations sir. Thank you for actually voting with your wallet instead of just hoping things get better.
Over 10% cheaper than in Germany wtf
Do they ship to other EU countries?
Just got the ASRock Steel Legend version here in the UK for £270. Looking forward to how it goes.
No stock in Finland at 340€.
Tom... Are you doing science or looking for data that suits your preconceived ideas?
The data speaks for itself. Like I say at the end of the video - I'm done arguing over obvious stuff. Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
@@MooresLawIsDead Pat "retired"
@@MooresLawIsDead Stop clinging to that "enthusiast class". Who cares about the slide deck for investors? Only thing consumers care for is what they can buy in stores. And both Nvidia and AMD failed to deliver anything competetive for at least 4 years in below $300 market.
@@LouisDuran No fired!
@@MooresLawIsDead dont waste your time. These are low IQ comments. They will see soon enough! Intels financials back up what you said.
for someone that usually understands the things that happen in this space for consumers, you really just dont get it at all this time.
Not one single person expects intel to uproot the entire low end market with the b580 when a lot of people are still waiting for the 700 / possible(?) 900 series cards, yet a 4060/7600 equivalent for the same price as an average 3060 on the market, even if its a loss leader with the amount of silicon in the card, is absolutely significant enough to matter and to keep intel in the running. comparing it to a 2080 super when its contemporaries are also the same performance as 2080 super but more expensive with the same amount of VRAM?
its super disingenuous to go this far when it was obvious from the moment alchemist launched that battlemage was going to have a very very tight window to develop both the hardware and software and that it wouldnt be what ppl wanted by this generation, but is absolutely what everyone needs
Yea , by his logic u either have to be full blown monopoly before you even enter a market or u shouldn’t enter at all
They can't afford to sell anything at a loss right now. They don't want to sell these. This is why Pat got fired. They need to charge $500 for this to be profitable and nobody would buy it for that. They have said as much in the financial articles. Intel is in real trouble. They could go out of business. In a year from now, Tom will end up being right. It's not a bad card, if it was profitable at that price but its not.
"keep Intel running". Yeah, selling cards at a loss is a great way to save a company.
@@stuartedwards6996as long as Intel has enough Money, Its actually great. It helps increasing market share and if Battleimage turns out to be really good, more people are going to consider a Arc GPU in the next generation, as it's established as a good budget GPU by then.
@@stuartedwards6996 Where is this evidence of them selling "at a loss"? Nvidia's margin is 60 to 80 percent per GPU sold, and their chips are much bigger, have much more complex PCBs designs and their R&D budget is gigantic
The cyberpunk issue is an issue with the X3D CPUs, Intel is working on it. This GPU is good and worth $250.
Oh man. You are clutching at straws here
That cyperbunk issue is only x3d chips. It's a known issue in drivers with a fix awaited.
Only guru3d had issues with starwars outlaws. Others had it running and performance was as expected.
This is called cherry picking.
Top the best an top CPU selling right now? I can see how that's not an issue in your world. An issue is an issue.
@@richardyao9012 Or just stating reported facts?
It's specifically an issue with X3D chips *and* (surprise, surprise) 24H2. The common denominator of all these f-ups lately is Microsoft.
@@stuartedwards6996 am not saying it's a non issue. But it happenns with a specific setting ie rt ultra on a cpu ie x3d. He makes it sound like cyberpunk doesn't run at all. If he had clearly said the conditions in which cyberpunk fails it would have been better
Battlemage doesn't fail in SW Outlaws, it's saving you from wasting your time
I seen several youtubers benchmarking the B580 and it had really good results at 1440p mostly which is their target, so I think it's a good card and AMD better step it up and provide a better card at similar price point.
They won't need to because Intel isn't planning on selling many. They need to make a profit. Why do you think they fired Pat?
@@tstager1978 why do you keep asking why they fired Pat? Every decent techtube and their mother, every single nerd knows they fired him as a scapegoat because they don't understand tech.
@@DakuHonoo Why don't you take a look at Intel's finacials since Pat took over.
@@tstager1978 Except providing enough of an improvement in performance per dollar with RDNA4 to compete with the B580's 250 dollar MSRP wouldn't even be that hard for AMD to do. There's a good chance that AMD will release something that's a bit more expensive, but also a lot better as well.
The value per dollar of AMD graphics cards has still been steadily increasing, it's just that the best value cards are generally more expensive now.
The biggest problem with the 7000 series, from a consumer's perspective, is that there wasn't a good purpose built 12GB card. The 7600 is a very low-end, very weak card, though it's certainly not horrible, and the 7600 XT has more vram than it needs, and is a bit on the expensive side as a result. The 6700 XT and 6750 XT remained as the best value cards in the 250-300 dollar price range, at least in the US, where those cards are still available for between about 260-300. Maybe that's the best clue as to why AMD never bothered to produce a purpose built 12GB card with the 7000 series, maybe they just didn't want to make something which competed too directly with the 6700/6750 XT, which still haven't sold out in the US.
The 7700 XT was obviously not a compelling value compared to the 7800 XT until it started to become available for up to 100 USD cheaper than the 7800 XT, but AMD never wanted to sell too many of those because of how close in cost it was to make vs. the 7800 XT. It was just occupying a spot in their product lineup, and it was still a way better value than either version of the 4060 ti when it first launched.
AMD is rumoured to have one or more purpose-built lower-end 12GB cards coming out with the next generation, which should have far superior performance relative to manufacturing cost than that of Intel's B580, and I expect them to be a big improvement in value per dollar over the very mediocre 7600 XT.
Tom, Clearly there is a demand for a $250-ish/12GB/RT capable GPU. So are you telling us all the most reputable reviewers got it wrong and you got it right? ... If I was in the market for a new GPU and I had a $250-300ish budget, the B580 would definitely be my choice. Because it is very doubtful that Nvidia is going to have a 12GB VRAM GPU in that price class and AMD will not miss an opportunity to shoot themselfs in the foot. So, Intel to the rescue.
I literally quoted "the reviewer's" numbers.
It doesn't matter. Intel can't afford to sell them no matter how large the demand is. At its current price, each one sold hurts them. Intel is hoping that there is no demand. The card needs to be at least $500 to be profitable. This is one of the main reasons Pat was fired.
@@MooresLawIsDead No you didn't. You put a refurbished 3060 as a new 3060. Some people don't want a refurbished card when buying NEW lmao.
I think on paper and at face value, this launch was an absolute win for Intel. All reviewers think it's a good card, and it is a good card at $250. Tom could have probably been more vocal about accepting this as a fact, and probably wouldn't have faced as much backlash. Still, I think the conclusion is still the same: Tom has more information regarding retailers' amount and vendors making this card, so if given that information the conclusion is that this card will be hard to get and not really available, and is in fact losing money for AIBs and Intel themselves, it's hard seeing this as long term strategy that continues to get green lit by Intel execs.
But who knows, maybe they haggle the price down with TSMC, figure out better financials with each card produced such that it's profitable, or Intel accepts that each card is a loss, and ramps up production while accepting the losses, and then bank on winning enough market share where in future they can jack up price so that the newer cards are profitable. I wouldn't know, I'm not a financial advisor...
@@tstager1978Pat was fired to placate skittish, shortsighted and stupid shareholders who have zero idea of the timeframes this year kind of R&D takes.
If Intel is barely making a profit on these now, its still a huge improvement on Alchemist, the B580 die is half the size of the A580 & still about 30% faster & much more stable. So I'd call that progress.
Also if they don't want to sell these things, you wouldn't know it by how strong the marketing push for this thing has been.
For cyberpunk all you have to do is not enable ultra raytracing on x3d chips. intel will continue working on drivers too, theyve done great. You're very very harsh on intel...
He's probably being paid by AMD, nothing else explains how butthurt he sounds about Arc.
@@ModjoGamingi hope that's true, since that means AMD is hinting that they realize their GPUs in this range have been priced too high
@@ModjoGaming He's butthurt because he went out on a limb with unverified info and claimed Arc was cancelled and was exposed as a clown when it wasn't. Then he doubled down changing his story and moving the goalposts repeatedly making matters even worse. Every tiny step Arc keeps progressing just twists the knife cause it shows Tom cares about being first over being right and he _hates_ it.
As you can tell he's the kind of person that just can't stand being wrong and this one was a doozy just as big as when he claimed RDNA3 was going to be 2X RDNA 2. He also backpedaled and changed his story on that one too as if we're stupid and haven't watched every single video he posts. 🤣
Except he is right about one thing, very few will be sold because Intel can't afford to sell many at that price. It needs to be $500 to be profitable and nobody wants it at that price. Intel doesn't want to sell them. Each one sold hurts the company. This is one reason that Pat got fired.
@@tstager1978 They lose money for now, investors are stupid and can barely see 1cm ahead of them. Firing pat may be the final nail in the coffin, they are already deep into fabs and gpu's.
While I think a lot of the points you make are valid, just having something new that blows the price/perf of everything else out of the water (HUB review has a comparison of MSRP and IRL prices) at launch can serve as a good wakeup call to AMD and Nvidia, plus it should ensure that Intel shouldn't have too many problems selling through their limited stock due to the good reviews it's been getting.
There's definitely a more optimistic take even with all their recent failures
Watch the video - it doesn't.
@@MooresLawIsDeadin their (HUB) price per frame charts, the b580 is quite noticeably better, over 20% lower cost per frame according to the Newegg prices. Considering how the launches of things like the 4060 or 7600 have gone where they've offered pretty much no extra value imrpovement, I honestly think battlemage can be considered a decent win. caveat of course being that it really does cost 250,
@@renchesandsords On paper, maybe. The main issue, is that The supply will not be enough for this segment of the market, so it will not influence AMD or Nvidia. Keep in mind that Price is affected by Supply and demand, Review look good so demand might be good for B580, But supply will be low, and that's something Intel's Tom Peteresen also said(so it's confirmed). So prices might go above MSRP if that's the case.
But even if the MSRP price remains the same for some reason, defying the supply/demand, when the low supply of B580 is sold, Nvdia and AMD will have no pressure in dropping their prices. If they don't get sold because there is no demand, the outcome will be the same, Nvidia and AMD will still have no pressure.
I guess we will have to wait and see how this plays out in the end. I didn't have much expectation from Battlemage, so i'm pleasantly surprised with it so far. I still remain disappointed in Intel though. they really messed it up, GPU and CPU wise.
@@tiberiumirica8445We actually don’t know if the supply will be insufficient. Intel likely had planned for another flop, but they suddenly have a success on their hands. You don’t need a business degree to know that the correct thing for them to do is ramp production above their break even threshold and enjoy the profits.
@@richardyao9012 They can ramp up production, but they'd either keep losing money on each card sold, or they'd lose their competitive edge because the price/perf ratio would no longer be so interesting. Not to mention, increasing volume takes some time... and CES announcements will start taking place in just a month (leaks, even earlier). All around a pretty tight spot for Intel.
I find it outright ridiculous that he is claiming that it is a “paper launch” and yet stock has been becoming available quite steadily over the last 48 hours. This is far from a paper launch in my opinion…
We'll see what steam hardware survey says in a few months.
There is a huge amount of latent demand at that price point for sure, so we'll see if all the selling out of stock is actually materialising in a significant volume of sales.
It's a bit hyperbolic, but he's used the same term to refer to AMD and Nvidia launches in the past as well. In the case of Nvidia and AMD, they were able to release in much larger quantities within around a month (or less) after the initial "paper launch". Tom is arguing that Intel will not be able to justify/ afford doing that at all with the B580 or B570.
@@InnuendoXPI wonder if many gamers will be able to get them. At $250 for 12GB, this is a ridiculously cheap way to reach VRAM levels that costs far more from AMD and Nvidia. 4 of these cards should be able to run llama 3.3 70B at int4 quantization. The local llama crowd will likely buy them en masse.
@@richardyao9012 FFS can't gamers have a damn thing
@@richardyao9012 waiting for a 16-24 (32 plz) gb card personally.
you have been shit talking the intel gpu release for at least a year..... enough is enough already.
Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
Pat got fired because of these gpus which have to be sold at a loss. Would you think the b580 is so great at a cost of $500 which would be needed to cover R&D and provide a small margin? I didn't think so. Intel can't afford to sell these at that price. Everything not profitable is getting canned. Pat spent Intel into the ground and now they have to try and save the company.
@@MooresLawIsDead I think the point you're missing is that most people don't have that much money to sink in to a GPU every year, We've been struggling to buy anything for the last 4 years trying to compete with crypto, and AI, with a chip shortage, Gamers are also getting fed up with terribly optimized games, which would hint that they're also fed up with having to fork out for GPUs just to run their games above 900p. I'm sitting on a RX 5700 and a 5900X, and despite them being released the same year, the CPU feels almost brand new by comparison. So any hint of competition and bring prices down in my mind is worth celebrating. I remember when you could buy a top-end GPU for less than the price of the 3060, (ATI X800 XL yooo), and now that's considered budget.
@@MooresLawIsDeadThe more you go into the “I will die on this hill” mentality, the more criticism you receive. You clearly are not being rational here. None of your peers in the technology media agree with your views on the B580 because they are without merit.
@@MooresLawIsDead You have copied and pasted the same boiler plate response over and over. Take the "L" like a real human being and move on, people will respect you for it.
You're talking bull, it has 17% to 20% better price to performance than 4060 & 7600, which is the actual outgoing products it is being compared to. Your predictions about its price to performance comparison were absolutely wrong and you are wrong now.
The data speaks for itself. Like I say at the end of the video - I'm done arguing over obvious stuff. Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
and in some games, it even has 0% the performance as the competing cards!
No buddy, you are wrong. Intel fired Pat because of these GPUs. They need to be $500 to cover development cost and have any margin. They won't be selling many of these. They don't want to. Each sale hurts the company. They are canceling dGPU. Financial analyst are already reporting on it. If it's not profitable, it's gone. They have to try and save the company now.
@MooresLawIsDead yes the numbers don't lie, it has 17% to 20% better price to performance than their competitor 7600 and 4060. AMD is playing the same game as Nvidia. Their price for the 8800xt will be as bad as Nvidia they just follow nvidia. 8800xt will just be a 50 dollar disount on whatever Nvidia will charge for the 5070.
@tstager1978 He was fired due to the stock, and the stock being down has nothing to do with gaming GPU, they are relevant to wall street. Wall street doesnt care about your gaming GPUs. This is about foundry expenditures and AI. This is well publicized on wall street and has been the contention of investors for months.
Tom i think you forget something. There is no alternative in that pricepoint right now. You are going back like 2 generations but all the current stuff is over 100€ more expensive for me.
Mlid is to arc what Userbenchmark is to amd
It's been a personal crusade with Tom ever since he declared ARC dead!
What did he say that was so bad?
“Nobody wants it” is being misinterpreted as no consumers want it, when it’s clearly not what he meant.
Nevermind all the other gripes people have because they’re thinking exclusively from a present moment consumers perspective, which doesn’t account for the corporate aspect of it.
If they lose money on it at MSRP, and raising the price means no-body will purchase it… then it’s a bad product for the company.
That's exactly what I thought after seeing this video.
He should open a new website: Benchmarkuser.
This is what I thought after seeing his last video. He really is becoming the user benchmark of GPUs. His 80% worse comments that were outright wrong because they relied on incorrect mathematics were the last straw.
Tom, regarding your claims about ARC B580 not being cost effective to make, the largest bill of material costs would be the die and memory. Let’s do some actual numbers for those.
The 5nm wafer price at TSMC is reportedly $16988. The die measurements by gamers nexus were 10.8mm by 25.3mm. That would give 214 dies per wafer at a cost of $79.38 each. Intel was so conservative with their engineering that they likely can use nearly all of them thanks to redundant circuitry in the dies to mitigage defects, so the price is $80 per die. The current gddr6 spot prices at dramexchange are $2.308 for a single 8Gbit IC. Getting to 12GB would cost $27.70 at that pricing. Intel would likely be using 16Gbit ICs, but the prices for 12GB of those are not likely much higher than for 8Gbit ICs and Intel can get bulk pricing, so they might actually pay less.
That means the die and memory cost Intel $110. There is still is the PCB and other components, packaging, distribution, marketing, development costs (beyond those that were absorbed by iGPU development), etcetera to consider, but consider this… motherboards cost more than all of those additional costs yet some are sold profitably at $80 each, despite being bigger. Thus, we can estimate nearly all of the other costs to be $80. That puts the BOM costs, plus various others like assembly, distribution and marketing at $190. The only cost that we did not consider as part of the motherboard hack is the cost of the bundled game, which is probably around $10 as Intel gets a special rate for buying in bulk (much like how epic games does for their giveaways). Intel thus would have a 20% profit margin on these cards. It is low by industry standards, but it is definitely not a loss.
Plus with economics of scale, the more they make, the cheaper they become to make. If Intel is not making a profit on these cards, it would be self inflicted from limiting production below the levels needed to build these profitably. I could see them having been hesitant to ramp production due to fear that it would be a market flop that they needed to write off like the alchemist cards, but they have a clear market success. There is no reason for them to not ramp production to make a profit.
Stop the hate dude intel is doing a very legit effort to make it in the graphics card market
No they aren't. Why do you think Pat got fired? They can't afford to sell many of these. It will bankrupt them. There won't be any more dgpu after this.
@@tstager1978 you are basically speculating. I'm only saying facts. In a couple of years if they launch the C series you'll see who was right.
You sound more like a tabloid news outlet then a tech news/reviewer, alot of "sources" to where you are getting you're information from
The data speaks for itself. Like I say at the end of the video - I'm done arguing over obvious stuff. Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
Nah, he sounds like an MSNBC "journalist" making shit up about Trump. 🤪🤣
@@MooresLawIsDead CLEARLY you are NOT done arguing as you keep responding to comments all over this video trying to justify your bad take that is not inline with reality.
@@MooresLawIsDead The zombies are out in full force today O_O
These idiots still haven't figured out that you're not a review channel (at least, most of your content are not reviews), and that the very different tone of your coverage of the B580 than reviews of the card do not actually indicate that you are disagreeing with the conclusion that the B580 is a good value to the consumer at 250 USD, because you are reporting on the engineering and business side of things.
The people at review outlets are going to get VERY negative on Intel once it turns out that the B580 is extremely hard to find at 250 USD, assuming that's true. I suppose Intel might still choose to make enough of these to keep up with demand, allowing the cards to be relatively easy to find at 250 in some regions, but that would seem to be a pretty bad choice on Intel's part, and doesn't seem likely.
@@MooresLawIsDead Normally down with your takes, but comparing the B580 to a supposed 220 USD 3060 is just plain unfair.
It was a refurb deal and should have triggered a red flag. Lowest non-refurb price is 30-ish percent higher at around 280 USD.
I've already ordered a b580, for my home server. It's not a type of usage that's typical for regular consumers, so the market size is small, but the b580 can really make a huge impact in that market if it doesn't run into unsolvable problems.
Not if most people looking to buy one for that purpose are not able to find it anywhere for a reasonable price.
@@syncmonism Depends on a lot of factors, not everybody limits themselves to only the PPW and the one-time cost. Even something as simple as performing the same work but quicker despite a premium purchasing cost or even a lower PPW, is still better for certain areas. Which is where these niche intel GPUs can work really well, as long as there are no unsolvable problems that emerges, or compatibility issues that takes forever to be fixed.
The card is selling for a loss at MSRP. Probably not the unsolvable problem you were referencing, but still.
@@ericbagley3613 Good will is what they need, so as long as it leads to good will then I'd count it as part of the marketing budget to subsidize those losses. Of course, I know they probably won't count it that way, but they really do need a winner right now, and if this GPU holds up then it can be a breath of fresh air.
@Joppi1992 what are you using this card for in a server setting? a gtx 1060 can easily do 1080p decoding and encoding for a PLEX server and for anything AI related a 3060 costs less and would do a similar job.
I won't argue about the gpu's technology, but I think you are greatly underrating the commercial appeal of this product. The number of people who want it is huge. First world parents with childrens who want a gaming pc for themselves, broke young people, and every third worlder on the planet from countries like Brazil or the Philippines who needs to save money for a year for a 4060. This has huge commercial success written on its forehead, and it was always very obvious.
Tom saw tech youtube praising Arc and giving generally good reviews and said absolutely not
Lol, Tom is so salty about the reviewers calling B580 a good deal. His predictions fell flat. Nvidia are not going to match this deal. AMD will have to drop the 7600xt to 250 to match Intel. 😂
1) My "predictions" were correct. Watch the video.
2) 7600 XT could be $250 just fine.
Intel isn't really selling BM. They are covering their asses. It isn't profitable. This is the last dgpu from Intel.
@@MooresLawIsDead
7600xt 'could be'... But it isn't
@@MooresLawIsDeadWould those be the same predictions where you said the card would be 80% worse than the RTX 4070 Ti, either because you were making stuff up or you could not do math? Reality has it at 45% worse, for less than 1/3 of the price, and you would have known this had you done proper math.
Unlike what you said, ARC ain't dead yet
It certainly isn’t alive if they’re losing money (or even just barely breaking even) on these cards.
Hobbling from beating to beating (even if you’re hiding the bruises by selling at a loss) isn’t sustainable.
Yes it is. You just don't realize it. Intel can't afford to sell them. Just wait and see.
ARC will never fully die due to the iGPUs being a requirement for modern client CPUs. What we have now is an extreme far cry from what Intel claimed they would have. The ARC Pat wanted is dead, and what we have left is it on life support.
Personally, I would love Intel to come into the GPU market with a full like up, but I’d rather they stay alive long enough to start making money from their fabs and fix their CPUs so AMD doesn’t become a monopoly in CPUs.
This is simply opportunity cost. Intel could spend 1 billion (an example) on GPUs with no return for many years, or they could put that billion into fixing their CPUs and fabs
Lololol 272mm2 die selling at $250 for a loss, wonder how long can Intel keep doing that......
You don't need to add the "yet" in there.
Gamers Nexus = Good price to performance
Hardware Unboxed = Intel saves pc gaming
Jayztwocents = Finally, a consumer friendly gpu
Linus tech tips = Arc B580 is actually a great card
MLID = Ok guys, lemme take a big wet creamy chocolatey dump all over intel's launch, lol
God I love this guy!
On paper it's good. But if it isn't available at $250 it's not. And currently it is not, so it is not good. Very simple.
@@andersjjensen
Also why are none of the tech channels taking into account that Intel has been imploding slowly over years? It's a big disclaimer of: "oh btw this company might shit can its entire gaming GPU division and your drivers will suck" especially when new GPU's are around the corner and you can get comparable price to performance CURRENTLY from AMD/NVidia that aren't going anywhere.
Its not worth saving 20$ to potentially have massive headaches in the future, people that buy this price range of GPU don't have money to set on fire, they'll probably keep it for a good while...
@@DebasedAnon For the same reason why GamersNexus didn't factor into their Alchemist review that the drivers could make big improvements, which they turned out to do anyway, because that wasn't certain. Also, even if they scrap their dGPU plans for the future, they will still need to support their iGPU, and with gaming APUs looking to seriously take over low end gaming laptops they will need to keep working on them.
Focusing on price to performance is kind of pointless when one of the main factors going the B580's way is the price. If something costs twice as much for three the performance, it doesn't matter if the shopper only had the budget for B580/4060/7600.
Drivers *may* potentially be an issue down the line, but the 8GB of VRAM from the 4060 and 7600 absolutely will be an issue.
@@DebasedAnon If you've been paying attention, many of them have. They don't have to shit on Intel in their review of a good-but-off-false-promises product this week. That's why you're here.
@@DebasedAnon What a butthurt comment. I've used Alchemist for over a year, it has only gotten better and a whole lot better I must say. Intel ARC is confirmed for 4th gen, 3rd gen hardware is already complete and aiming at high end enthusiasts with software team working on it. You're clearly a Radeon simp because even NVidia fanboys are not this toxic.
You verbally added to Source 8's comment that "based on BOM" this is a loss. Is it actually a BOM loss, or a loss based on planned volume vs overhead cost of the project and production?
Because if this is a BOM loss for a company with as much pull, status, and experience as Intel, then it's 100% a skill issue.
Also, they could have easily priced these as $279 and sold tnem just as easily. Especially if they are still not sure if there will be a 750 or 770/970
I would say the positive view on pricing would be the same if it had been priced at 279. Because pricing have been so ridiculous for so long.
I have tried to explain economics of scale to him repeatedly. He just ignores it and pretends economics of scale do not exist. He made a remark that if they are losing $20 a card now, producing 10 million cards would make them lose $200,000,000, which could not be more wrong. If they scaled up production that much, they would definitely get substantial cost savings versus whatever they paid for the initial production run. Having their total costs decrease by $50 or more per card would be possible. In such a scenario, a $20 loss per card would become a $30+ profit. It would not be Nvidia levels of profit or even AMD levels of profit, but it would be a profit that the company needs.
@@richardyao9012 they don't really benefit the same way from scale as they aren't the ones manufacturing the chips. They are just buying them from TSMC, and it's unlikely they are getting any better deals on the number of chips because that allocation/order would have been made long ago and wouldn't be that flexible when it comes to the number they can produce.
They may when it comes to the total production of the card, but even there they are contracting with another company to build the GPUs and economics of scale rarely increase linearly. Their costs per unit will likely remain the same unless something very abnormal happens or TSMC drops their wafer pricing and they put in a huge additional order which would be unlikely at this late phase.
Intel's main benefit of this card is in terms of mindshare, not really marketshare
Intel is definitely selling at loss after R&D and support, but it's not true that the more Intel sells, the more loss they make. Quick napkin maths BOM is actually close to $230. The chip itself is about $115 to make, plus $40 GDDR6, $75 for the card and logistics which leaves Intel with no operational margin after retailer's cut.i
And shipping. And then account for the fact that TSMC charges them more than the average customer...
With under 13000$ 5n TSMC 300mm wafer, the chip is about 75-85 though.
@@MooresLawIsDead Why take speculation into account?
@@MooresLawIsDead plus covering the R&d cost.
@@rasul_khalilov because it is part of the equation along with r&d which isn't free.
Picked up a steel legend b580 at my local pc shop today and ordered in Newegg the FE and the sparkle edition! Excited 🙋🏾♂️💯
Good you got a few that will actually be sold !
Let's state the facts:
The B580 has good price/performance compared to existing offerings at MSRP and good VRAM capacity.
Software instabilities seem to be mostly fixed though some issues are still being ironed out.
Volumes are and will be low since Intel seems to be losing money on each entry (according to you).
RDNA 4 might launch soon(TM) but of course, AMD will shoot themselves in the foot as usual with pricing.
Conclusion:
The B580 is a good buy around MSRP though it might be hard to find due to low volume. RDNA4 might match it in price/performance, but no guarantees given AMDs track record.
This should have been the conclusion to your video. Not some random shit about Intel slides and high-end offerings.
It's not a high end card. It was never meant to be. But it's a servicable card that will run games on a budget at a VERY respectable rate in it's price to performance. And if they DO keep hitting their driver boosts, it DOES look like it could be great. Obviously it's not going to dethrone cards in price brackets well above it, but for what it is, it is still an appealing card.
An appealing card if it’s sold for MSRP…
If it is, the vendor makes a loss, if it isn’t, no-one will purchase it because it’s not worth it.
Such is the situation I suppose.
@@sulimanthemagnificent4893 MSRP being a loss leader on a GPU could be an issue... that's hard to argue against....
8% price to performance more than a $220 3060 12GB is decent considering the 3060 12GB doesn't go for that low brand new.
i'm happy the B580 is being positively reviewed, i'll pick one up in the future for collection purposes.
it's a good product, sure Intel might not be making good margins, it might be using too much silicon but that doesn't matter to the customer.
$250 is great, it probably will go up for AIB models. be anything under $280 is still a decent enough deal especially considering the 4060 never drops in price.
Your conclusion is wrong because your data is wrong. Techpowerup used $220 for it's calculation. I have NEVER seen the 12GB 3060 for any less than $265.... and it is currently $280. So with the correct cost estimate of a new 3060($270)... the B580 is 24% better value.. not 8%. I agree with you that finding it at that price may be difficult. But if you can get it at $250 it actually IS a great value... unless you can point me in the direction of a brand new $220 12GB 3060. I mean... did you draw over the 220 because you new it was wrong and it undermined your point? lol jk you wouldn't do that.
in EU, RTX 3060 12GB is 330 euros minimum
Tom, I hear what you're saying. but be careful not to demonize your audience, you WILL loose that battle.
Calling everyone crazy (even if it's warranted) makes you perceived as crazy by everyone.
1:06 That's not even a valid argument, there are no new 3060's for $220, cheapest is $280, a whole 27% more expensive, which would drop it very far down in that perf/$ chart.
Same goes for the 3070 @ $320, there is no 3070 for $320, idk where these numbers are even coming from, I'm guessing they're taking the average used ebay price?
Over here in the EU, the B580 is above 300 euros. Around that money you can also also get a 4060 or from AMD even a 6750XT (€329 on Mindfactory). I could not even find a listing for the B580 on Mindfactory. I saw one listing for the €299 base model on Caseking, but without availability.
All in all, I personally have to agree with Tom. If I was the target group for this card, I would probably spend a couple of euros more for a competition product. Simply because of the driver support and also because of the fact that that nobody knows the future of the intel graphics sector. There is a new management that needs to save money. The graphics business is currently a lossy business. I would not blindly rely on Tom Petersen’s statements that they are likely to continue.
Yes the EU pricing is the realistic price. The $250 in the US is a marketing stunt similar to the Nvidia 30 series.
Yeah a lot of the models are between €310 and €330 and at that price might as well get an AMD gpu (I'm boycotting Ngreedia)
no supply? Linus' source say they will have weekly board drops. so partners should be able to keep a steady supply of the B580.
This is the FIRST card since 2018 that I have considered that is actually priced where i want it. Still using RX 590 due to greed and poor performance both from AMD and Nvidia.
This card will do very well for people that are not ok with buying an overpriced new card every generation or 2.
This card is priced at the same level the RX 590 was, in 2018. Which means they are probably selling it at a loss.
"Real" RX 590 or is it the GME variant?
I love my 7900xtx. It's great!
I had a RX580 and ended up buying a RX 5700 second hand, I know the feeling both these cards are 200w, and any sort of replacement requires a PSU upgrade or case upgrade because every card is bloody huge and power hungry these days, plus I'm not a huge fan of my room getting super hot and noisy during the summer. I remember when people thought 2 300w SLI GPUs was crazy, and now we got cards pulling 500w by themselves.
@@woobilicious. Haha, I did SLI 770's and then SLI 980ti's. Then singular 1080ti, then to 6700XT. Can't believe my 1000w from back then still works today
A quote comes to mind that might help you Tom.
"I suggest a new strategy R2, let the wookie win!"
At some point you have to admit you are wrong with your predictions and personal feelings about Arc. You're just making yourself look a bit stupid by continuing your rants about it. Are all the other reviewers really wrong and you are correct?!
And BTW, fps/$ is irrelevant when the price is low enough on a brand new decent GPU with plenty of good features.
This guy will every time find something to moan about an intel product. Quiet funny i have started to enjoy the trashtalk.
Aww facts hurt you.
@@Hydracluster550 If you wants facts stop watching this guy, he has been wrong about everything so far.
@@ModjoGaming What was said here that is untrue? Why don't you just point them out instead of making accusations?
Nothing said was untrue. It's time to watch the last remaining ARC fanboys hyperventilate over the truth.
@@ModjoGaming Your IQ is diminishing. Intel fired Pat because of this situation. Intel can't afford to sell these. Go read what financial analyst are saying about Intel. They are in real trouble. Arc is canned after this.
You can pre-order the B580 for $259 at B&H
"Pre-Order" - thought it was out lol
@@MooresLawIsDead And every NVIDIA and AMD launch had plenty of stock, let alone their 2nd gen product line? Tom, you need to take your dog for a walk under the stars and clear your head. Most "sources" at vendors are sources because they are either disgruntled employees or junior-level people trying to stir things up. Historically, you have good content, but the negativity (not just for Intel and/or BMG) lately has really become tiresome. You can do better.
@@arcayne5814 You are gonna feel really dumb when he is right. If they could afford to sell these at $250, Pat would still be CEO.
Alternate DE has the AsRock in stock for 304€. Proshop thr Sparkle 3-fan one for 319€. The weird acer card with the whacky fan design is on pre-order. The official design is nowhere to be found.
@@hyperturbotechnomike I saw limited edition yesterday in Poland at 323€ before I went sleep. It's not even sold out, I was completely removed from the store. Other cards will be replenished in a week or so.
I'm gonna be honest, you've lately been sounding like you WANT Battlemage to fail and it's unusually mean-spirited of you
Not gonna go "HOW DARE YOU GO AFTER THE MULTIBILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION!!!” or anything, just not used to this level of cynicism
It already failed. Yes it looks good for the price but Intel can't afford to sell it at that price. They need it to be around $500 to be profitable and cover r&d. Its not worth $500
@tstager1978 You gotta stop posting the same nonsense everywhere
You also completely missed the point of my comment. Regardless or not of it failing, he's acting uncharacteristically nasty.
He went from "lol guys I've already said this is wrong before" to "wow how could anyone possibly think like this? god, what absolute dumbos"
@@interrobangingspost No ill post whatever I want whenever I want!
@@tstager1978 yeah well my cat would win in a fight against yours 😤
He's been very consistently nasty about Intel since Alchemist's launch. It's not a new thing.
Anyone noticed that his replies to comments and just a copy and paste effort?😂 Great way to converse with your community. From scrolling through the comments seems like you are being called out/found out that your "sources" are maybe manufactured lies that are way off the mark this time and instead of taking the "L" your are doubling down. Speaks volumes of your integrity or lack of.
I did notice. I like the guy but he really needs a break. He is too invested and serious about his theories.
Lol. You just can’t let go of getting burned by that Arc is dead lie you went all in on two years ago. 😂
The data speaks for itself. Like I say at the end of the video - I'm done arguing over obvious stuff. Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
Arc is dead and is playing out just like he said it would. There won't be anymore Arc after these. Intel doesn't want to go bankrupt. You can read about it in business news.
@@MooresLawIsDeadSo you’re one of those that just copy/pastes the same retort over and over lmao can’t even put effort into defending your point.
@@Thee_Sinner I'm actually surprised to see this many replies from him even if they are all copy/paste that's far more than usual. And 100% more than some tech channels do 🤣🤣
@@tstager1978Are you Tom’s second account? You keep regurgitating his nonsense. You are basically the only one doing it.
Lol so many sour grapes. Hear the whining in the last chapter. Dude can't even get over it got good reviews and had to cancel the Thursday video because he had to come up with something bad to say.
The data speaks for itself. Like I say at the end of the video - I'm done arguing over obvious stuff. Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
You don't get it. Intel can't afford to sell these at this price. They are in trouble. $500 is the real price to cover R&D and a small margin. This isn't a good card at that price.
@@MooresLawIsDead you must be tired copy pasting take some rest relax for the weekend then try coming up with better propoganda next week.......
Its disappointing that Tom cant see pass a haze of hubris. The B580 is good for the market and a good value proposition for the customer, at the same time Intel are gaining mind and marketshare, using an increase in users to bolster drivers and support for the next time round. Its a decent card with really encouraging frame gen tech. The doom, gloom and FUD is only increasing on this channel and its getting tiring.
Good for the market and good for intel is not the same thing. What I want to know is what it costs intel to manufacture each card. Is it breaking even or making money.
It is baffling to me that someone would continue to whine and deflect blame instead of just admitting they were wrong about their opinion.
You're not an industry expert or an analyst Tom, and no one expects your analysis to be accurate. You just report on what you hear from some anonymous people on the internet and they can be wrong as well.
The data speaks for itself. Like I say at the end of the video - I'm done arguing over obvious stuff. Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
@@MooresLawIsDead exactly!
Go read up on Intel in the financials. Intel can't afford to sell these. They fired Pat over it. Tom's assessment is accurate. You are the one who is wrong. The truth is there shouldn't be any decent GPU at this price because they aren't profitable. The b580 needs to be $500 to be profitable and cover R&D. Nobody wants it at that price.
@@MooresLawIsDead copy pasting the same replies everywhere , youve lost the plot 😂 . “Bmg effectively cancelled” not sure what you and your bootlicking community gain from hating on actual competition?
hei don't say that he will take it to heart, he thinks he is industry expert, let him believe what he believes its bad to say all these at his tender age , stunts the mental development and he will turn out to be a failure when becomes adult.......btw look at this guy go , copy pasting comments so pathetic, i never felt sorry for someone like him.......there is time and moment to back off and admit they're wrong but this guy noooooo hahahah
You sing AMD's praises and complain about Intel's low supply at launch. When AMD launched the 5950X CPU there were literally 2 delivered to a singular distributor whom I was lucky to have an account with. They were also sold WAY above MSRP. And were not resupplied globally in a meaningful way for at least 6~24 months depending what model you wanted.
People were running bots so they could buy Zen3 CPUs when they were in stock online.
Nvidia is also notorious for low supply at launch for many products.
So showing Intel's low supply at launch doesn't differentiate it from AMD or Nvidia.
Raja said "enthusiast class" not Pat, but yeah this is enthusiasts friends system class.
😂😂😂 You will have to work harder to create a negative perception of Intel GPU attempts.
The hardware is stellar, and the drivers will only get better.
Intel made the right decision when it comes to supply. Let's be honest NVIDIA and AMD still have a significant mindshare. It will take another generation to really start clawing mindshare from the well established dominant players.
I've got 7 friends now who already bought it at MSRP prices in Europe (+VAT of course) and it's still available in some websites across EU. End user does not care about the efficiency of the die size if the card performs well in it's price segment and have enough VRAM which B580 checks both of those things. I also hope that this will impact the upcoming RX8600 either it's price or better yet it's VRAM and bus width if they can still change those.
Dunno about all this pessimism about Battlemage when it's the first breath of fresh air in GPU market for a long time. The price to performance is top tier and Intel is working hard on drivers and reportedly solving game compatibility issues daily. It's as close to a no brainer for entry level build that we have gotten in years.
Not calling B580 a relative success is somewhat lethargic, no offense.
Battlemage isn't going to affect RDNA4 or Blackwell pricing, because Intel aren't going to make many of them. They literally can't, because Intel isn't making any money off of them. If the volume isn't high, then AMD and Nvidia won't see it as a threat at all.
There's a lot more to competition than just price to performance.
I wouldnt totally count it out, the press is so positive over a $250 card with more than 8gb. I can see amd wanting to get in on that positivity even if Intel isnt actually making enough cards to matter. Nvidia though, I would be surprised if they respond to anything other than a slam dunk from Amd.
But reviewers will pretend Battlemage is available and compare to it's price point. So we are about to get another generation met with huge negativity. But the fact of the matter is that GPU dies are massively bigger than CPUs at the same price point. And that's before taking into consideration that GPUs pack half a motherboard's worth of components and however much VRAM.
this ^
the glaze that's coming from reviewers like linus is crazy, and is all BS to force AMD/Nvidia to drop prices too so they don't get compared to a MSRP that is as BS as the ones during the crypto craze
agreed. but a lot of fellas here couldn't fathom / refusing to believe that.
@@andersjjensen agreed. reviewers just review what's in front of them. B580 is good and all, but Intel is not making money out of it at all and the more they sell the more detrimental it will be for intel haha.
It's pretty simple: when MLID _quotes_ sources, that's fine, but when he _opines_ with his typically delusional nonsense, it's invariably wrong... His ego is completely out of control now, extremely off-putting and kind of pathetic.
Before the first gen of arc was launched, when you were rooting for it. you said a lot of times that it was clear that Intel needed several generations of cards to close the gap with the competitors. We knew that. GPUs are complicated things, and so it was expected that the road would have been bumpy for Intel. So why it looks like you're deliberately ig oring this fact and judging Intel as they have constantly made discrete cards for decades, instead of seeing a clear progress in the second gen? Also, it's clear that Intel has massive interest in having a piece of the pie of the GPU market, and not just because of gaming, but even more for the AI market, while you're keeping pushing this idea that Intel should quit building GPUs, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. Even if in trouble, Intel has all the interest in pushing in this direction
There is enough stock in Australia, we still have all the major outlets with stock, although the Limited Edition is OOS at some outlets.
Pricing is AUD$449 which is about right. USD$250 = AUD$393 + 10% tax = $432.30. The rest would be freight & import costs.
Now, when they do sell out then the question is how long it will take to restock.
no wonder, every single Australian I have ever spoken to have a boner for Nvidia so massive they even respond with disgust if I dare mention an AMD gpu
$439 aud limited edition and sparkle is $479 aud. Limited edition is decent value but sparkle is bit overpriced.
That situation isn't likely to last very long
They told Linus Sebastian that they are shipping more cards every week.
People are so desperate for Intel to be successful they don't understand that you can't sell products at a loss while your company is failing to compete in all market segments. If Intel was serious about Battlemage they would have the entire lineup out now so they can take buyers from AMD and Nvidia.
Selling a product at an initial loss is pretty standard for gaining market share and relevance to its consumers. Amazon didn't make profits for a long time and sold at a loss early in their days.
I got it for that price without preordering. I just ordered it yesterday 14.12.2024
Would be cool if you actually for once admitted that you were wrong. I think you put out decent content but theres nothing wrong with being wrong sometimes.
I just hope the news cycle is enough to convince intel executives to not give up on Arc completely. Paper launch or not
They don't have a choice. They can't afford to sell these at a loss.
@@tstager1978That is why they are likely increasing production so that the cards can be sold at a profit.
@@tstager1978 I’m not talking about Battlemage. I’m talking about future Arc
@@richardyao9012 Wait and see man. I hope I'm wrong. I want Intel to succeed. They are in real trouble though and I don't believe they can afford to sell many of these. If I'm wrong, I'll happily admit it.
@@richardyao9012 The R&D cost is the problem. The BOM cost means very little.
I'm telling you, guy made different accounts to harass people in comment section lol
wow he really doesnt like Intel graphics right? Intel never said they would compete high end, they said they would compete with and beat the RTX 4060 and this is exactly what they did. They also said the Intel card would be a limited edition with a limited run, and guess what? It was. This card was designed to provide a decent £250 (here in the UK) graphics card thats great for 1080 and some 1440 with reasonable ray tracing. They did exactly what they said they would do.
Comparing the £250 B580 to the £1600 RTX 4090 is just snobbish.
They said they would compete in the high end. This was years ago, before the 4060 was even out.
Seems available in Italy just fine and imho for the next month is going to be the best option here under 400 euro. Only partners cards thought
All you do anymore is talk about yourself and how wonderful your prior predictions were. It's past time to check your hyper-inflated ego at the door and get back to making interesting, informative material.
Past? I reference videos that are only weeks old here lol. I'll never understand the chip some people have on their shoulders about trying to simply catch people up on recent developments.
@@MooresLawIsDeadwow.. You've gone really sour here. Being
Wrong is still wrong... Period.
@crysed7897 How/where has he been wrong?
Links, videos and quotes would be appreciated.
@@crysed7897 He isn't wrong! You just can't see it but it's there.
@@tstager1978Usually when only 1 person can see something, what he sees only exists in his head, and it is time to get professional psychiatric help. Saying that only he can see it is not helping him. If you are Tom’s second account, then Tom definitely needs help.
Hardware unboxed shows 20% price to performance. I think you have shown the lowest number from all reviews..
As of this morning, Tustin Micro Center had 40 or so Sparkle and Asrock B580s in store. All gone at the end of the day.
Definitely an out of touch take. It is 8% faster. With 12GB vram instead of 8GB, which means a lot going into the future. and the 8% is raster only, when looking at RT it is better.
How it compares to NVIDIA RTX 4060 RT perf? Raw without any sw enhancing fps techs
Gibbo OCUK
"More Sparkle are due next week hopefully.
Good launch with over 500 cards sold in first 24hr so a huge uplift for Intel."
"Asrock will hopefully arrive within next 1-2 weeks."
"The Sparkle Titans are in stock, we have had 300 land, all back orders are shipping and we have around 150 in free stock." (before they then sold out).
I watched a couple of the positive reviews for this card, and was happy to see that it is much more consistent than alchemist. I am surprised that none (at least that I watched) seemed concerned about supply. This thing has a die almost twice the size of a 4060 with 50% more memory... there's was never any way it was going to be very profitable at $250 if at all.
Reviews should account the size of the die if it’s unusual. Like if it’s too small, then they are ripping you off. Vice versa, if it’s too big at a too cheap of a price you have to wonder if it’s even realistically going to be a regular launch or a paper launch. Too bad it’s too arbitrary to realistically do.
@@Javier64691 The reviews don't have to look at that, but it would be good if they could. The consumer doesn't need to know whether the company is making money on it or not, but it could help to give an indication of how good the long-term support for the product will be. However, aside from that, it's not the customer's problem if Intel is selling them at a loss.
Most reviews are positive, only this guy is butthurt and has been for months, for some unknown reason.
persuming a 4060 is the standard for profitability.
@@rotm4447 yeah Nvidia is definitely milking the 4060 and the 40 series in general. That said, Pat gelsinger famously ruined Intel's favorable pricing with tsmc, so I doubt they're getting a better deal than Nvidia, and as greedy as Nvidia can be, I doubt they're getting over 100% margin on the 4060. I'll be happy to eat my words if the b580 comes back into stock soon at MSRP, but I'm not holding my breath. Tom may be a bit pessimistic about Intel, but honestly I feel his pain. It's really disappointing seeing Intel floundering like this. I want there to be healthy competition in the GPU space and the CPU space, and Intel just keeps falling further behind it feels like. Here's hoping Celestial makes big gains next gen, and Arc doesn't get canned.
I purchased a b580 card and plan on using it in my spare rig, paired with a 11900k I found used for a killer price. I'm excited to see what It can and can't do. Should be quite the improvement compared with the m2000 single slot card now.
It's a sad state for the market, when the B580 (day late, dollar short, etc) is actually competitive.
But at this point, any competition is better than none. Hopefully AMD takes the lesson from this that we want.
But IF Tom's sources are right, and this is a low volume launch, then it'd be easy for AMD to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. Which would really suck, because a more competitive AMD is the only hope we have of reigning in Nvidia at least a little bit.
This isn't even that impressive of a generational uplift in value per dollar over previous gen graphics cards, and Intel can't afford/ can't justify making a lot of these because of how much they're losing on each one they sell.
From the standpoint of the consumer, it's still good, as Tom also said, because it can still put some pricing pressure on AMD and Nvidia, even if the B580 is hard to find. It will show up in a lot of review comparisons, and that alone will put some pressure on AMD and Nvidia. That being said, it shouldn't be difficult at all for AMD to release something significantly better than the 7600 and 7600 XT in terms of value per dollar, and Intel's pricing for the B580 may well not make a difference, but we'll probably never know if it affects AMD's pricing decisions for RDNA4 cards or not.
I agree that the B580 LE seems to be a good GPU at $249 MSRP, and that could be nice to have it in a budget built (with a CPU like the 7600, etc.).
Anyway, once the RX 8600 and the 5060 are available, it's going to be interesting, I guess, to make some comparisons, especially on recent games.
Thanks for the video. 😊
Have a nice week-end!
I think the issue here is this : tom look at this from bussines/techonological angle looking in the future (knowing the leaks) while most people looks at this "its christmas i wanna play now, this card is cheap enough and do the job for most ppl around the world that stay on 1080. so i wanna buy it.
I prefer my $1000 7900xtx. It's great!
Tom, please don't turn into the AMD equivalent of UserBenchmark, because this video is taking you down that path.
The data speaks for itself. Like I say at the end of the video - I'm done arguing over obvious stuff. Sure, Pat has rainbows coming out of his ass right now and the 3060 is enthusiast class lol. Tell yourself whatever you want.
Why do you think Pat got fired? I'll tell you that these GPUs that have to be sold at a loss are a big part of it. Arc is canned after this. There will be no more dgpu. Anything that isn't profitable is being cut. Pat spent Intel into the ground. Business analysts are already reporting on it!
@@tstager1978 Nah, the GPU stuff is a relatively small deal in the grand scheme. With Pat, it was about the foundry stuff.
Are you REALLY going to accuse him of "Going down the wrong path" just because he isn't telling you what you want to hear? Seriously? He is stating what his contacts are telling him, and the data he was given. The sheer desperation for Tom to be wrong is truly astonishing.
@@guspaz No it was both of those things and others. Go read about it from the business analysts. Intel is in bad shape. Nothing is small anymore.
I got 3 models of battlemage. 2 on new egg and 1 in person. Gotta have the email notifications of restock and check online twice a hour 🙋🏾♂️😁
why do you need 3 of them?
@@abibirawa4119 Resale?
@@abibirawa4119He probably wants to run large language models locally.
Tom, you assume that the cost would remain the same if Intel made 10 million cards. The cost would go down due to lower component costs (because of volume purchases) and assembly line efficiencies that a large volume creates.
It's the gpu die that they can't afford to sell that cheaply. It's made by TSMC so no volume discount.
Not trying to say you were wrong, you are right I’d say 75-80% of the time. (You were right about Battlemages performance, I just think that your take was a bit more negative than it is, and a bit negative about its efficiency, it’s better than I expected). The B580 is definitely overall better than you suggested it would be. Your performance estimate is within 5-10% of what it is. I would say it’s pretty damn disruptive to the market. For $250 it beats the 7600 by quite a bit and has 50% more VRAM, and beats the 4060 while costing less.
I hope Intel makes more of these and continues to develop the B770. We NEED more competition in the GPU market. Nvidia is going mad with prices, giving you less for more. The 4060 is literally a 4050, it’s AD107 which the 107 has always been the 50 class card. Nvidia nerfed every single tier except for the 4090 (they even nerfed the 4090 a bit TBH), giving the 4070 a smaller memory bus, making the 4060 Ti a 4060 configuration instead of a cut down 70 class. The 4070 Ti was going to be the 4080 12 GB even though it’s just literally the fully unlocked 4070 (AD104). A 192-bit 4080 would have been insane.
It seems that Blackwell is going to be the same but even worse than Lovelace was. I’m waiting for the 8800XT for my 9800X3D I just picked up. I hope that Battlemage stays at MSRP and I love your videos by the way!
Also, I do believe that the B580 is not going to change the market if they can’t stay in stock or if they are being produced at a loss. Competition is really good for us.
It's the exact performance I said it would be lol. Watch the video.
when I'm in a lacking video watching-comprehension competition and my opponent is morpheus_9
@MooresLawIsDead yes, I edited my comment. I know and acknowledged you were right about its performance in my edit. I meant when you said its efficiency and overall outlook/competitiveness. I was super excited when I saw B580s performance in the reviews. Great video by the way! You were correct about the super low stock.
@@MooresLawIsDeadwhy don’t u ever admit when ur wrong tho? Instead u delete everything that shows proof of it…
It can't disrupt the market if you can't buy it. It's almost like you didn't watch the video at all.
I'm keen on the B770
The "is not enthusiast class" horse has reincarnated at least a couple of times. The B580 looks actually good at that price. Too bad it looks like there's not going to be a lot of supply...
You can find B580 here in Finland but it's more expensive (330€) than cheapest 4060 (300€).
I managed to get one quite easily.
As did i, i preordered on newegg a few days ago, shipped this afternoon.
That single data point isn't significant
@@syncmonismJust like the B580
Lol gottem
I didn't. The biggest store in my country in Europe doesn't have any and the others say "supply at distributer" which means they don't have any in their own warehouse and are hoping that Intel or other card company will deliver it to them soon.
You are so out of touch
most of the info provided by the leaks in this video is on par with what Tom Petersen from Intel said a week ago, so why all the back lash? Supply was confirmed lower then Archmage(at least for B580), Card is confirmed as being sold at a loss by Intel ("gift to gamers" was the term used by Tom Petersen when this was discussed). Because supply is low, they will not really make a dent in Nvidia and AMD market share, so of course they will not really have any reason to lower prices on future GPU generation.
And to top all that up, as a general rule in any market, low supply and high demand leads in the end to higher prices so... unless Intel defies all common practices of a free market, I highly doubt Battlemage will remain at MSRP for long (when and if they are available) which will destroy the entire price/performance calculation from release if that happens. I guess we will have to wait and see how things play out.
It's his dogshit attitude
Enough commenters are mentioning it.... I don't need to re-state the obvious, but yeah.... we know where we'll never hear about it from when Intel does something good....
Would you like a picture of my custom water cooled 7900xtx?
Mlid always succed to crack me up...lol... I always come to the channel when my mood goes south - and it works !... I still remember the Mlid's video that Intel canceled the Arc - and generally their gpu - project... lol...