Steel vs Aluminum Tanks - Scuba Tech Tips: S03E07
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- What are the differences between steel and aluminum scuba tanks? Alec explains the practical pros and cons of each tank plus how yoke and DIN valves fit into tank selection.
**** Alec Peirce Scuba ****
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I used steel tanks during my intial certification while living in Italy. Then after moving back to the US used aluminum 80's for the first time, hated it especially when the tank started becoming buoyant near the end of the dive.
You can imagine my frustration. I used steel tanks exclusively for 20 years before aluminum tanks appeared.
However, the improvement in the safety and the low maintenance of the aluminum tanks still makes the annoyance worthwhile.
It has been argued that the positive buoyancy of an aluminum tank at the end of a dive is a good thing but I agree with you. They are bouncy and tippy and make you feel like a beached whale.
Alec
I read one thing on a Google article that summed up DIN vs Yoke with a bit of interesting and possibly important nuance. It was talking specifically about travel diving - beyond the fact that DIN regs have a higher pressure rating which obviously appeals to tech divers and other adventure types which explore beyond basic rec diving and beyond the nuance of a captured O-ring vs a free O-ring, this article mentioned where the O-ring is.
In a yoke valve, the O-ring is on the tank... On a DIN valve, the O-ring is on the reg. That 100% sold me on buying a DIN reg, despite the extra cost. The article said that if you buy a DIN regulator, YOU own the O-ring, YOU are responsible for keeping it maintained and free of debris. Obviously, if you own the regulator AND the tank, you do whatever the hell works best for you, but specifically in regards to the topic of travel diving a lot or doing a lot of boat dives and resort dives where you spend the majority of your time renting tanks from a dive company, rather than supplying your own, it may be a bit of valuable piece of mind to know that this vital piece of equipment, the O-ring, is in your control and care, not the tank supplier.
Of course, it's *mostly* a moot point anyway because firstly failures aren't that common and secondly because yokes are so popular anyway that you'll almost always have the opportunity to dive yoke, but maybe not DIN, though very rarely will you have the opportunity to dive DIN, but not yoke, at least in the rec diving realm.
I guess as well it comes down to where you're diving in the world - some places are highly regulated and everything is strictly controlled... Some places are a bit... Meh, little bit on the edgy side. In those cases it would be a decent amount of piece of mind knowing that all you have to do is rely on a shop to provide you a tank that isn't corroded completely through and you'll handle the delicate stuff like your precious O-rings and stages.
In that sense, it's a shame that DIN isn't the standard, because I'd go so far personally as to buy a DIN reg and a yoke converter, in case I am put in a situation where I'm forced to use a yoke valve - in that respect carrying a small screw type connector, if you prefer yoke regs, and still having ownership and control over the O-ring is far more convenient than carrying a DIN converter to clamp onto a renta-tank with their God knows how well maintained O-ring.
I donno, maybe I just read far too deeply into it, but when I read that minor point in the article I read, it clicked for me in a weird way.
Having a captured O-Ring is a good thing. And, if you are a fastidious diver, owning and carrying your own tank O-Ring is good too.
Many divers are not and so rely on a good dive store to supply them with tanks and O-Rings.
I have no problem with DIN fittings and agree they have some advantages, as does the yoke fitting.
I DO have a problem with divers who claim the DIN is the ONLY way to go. Clearly, it is not.
Take care.
Alec
I just have to say you are the greatest at explaining things and I have now watched all your videos and have incorporated many things you have said and I thank you for doing the videos
Wow! You've watched all of my videos?!!
You must be a Master Diver by now! LOL.
I'm glad it's been helpful and hopefully, entertaining too.
Alec
John Ramirez, i agree to the highest level!As a Filipino i sometimes have trouble understanding how Americans speak but he speaks and explain things clearly. He talks fast but i can understand! I love him already as my new mentor 👌
DIN v INT (Yolk) OK let's get round the Imperial /metric difference. A DIN regulator is rated at 230 Bar, an INT (Yolk) regulator is rated at 200 bar so can maintain less pressure. In some places in the world, they inflate tanks to 230Bar, that's what they do. I first encountered this in Gibraltar. My Second stage was fusing all the time at the start of thye dive. I had to get out my tool kit and fixed my regulator to cope with that. YES I am a very bad man I'm not supposed to do that. Things got worse, in Egypt (yes that's the red sea) they are set up to dive DIN. The tanks are inflated to 239 , DIN connection but they offer adaptors for INT. Now on the DIN connection YOU maintain the O ring. With an INT connection the boat maintains the O ring OR doesn't maintain the O Ring. The net result on a dive at 5 metres on INT the O-ring failed. Do you know the noise that makes behind your head? After that I bought new DIN regulators and put my favorite INT regulators in the loft. True story, if you travel to dive, get DIN, or rent local.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Actually I do know what it sounds like for a reg yoke to fail!
A
Alec you are the man. Do you know how rare it is to have someone with 40+ years of experience in ANYTHING willing to participate on youtube or social media. Most people your age aren't interested in going online and volumes of knowledge are going to be lost. What a precious resource and fountain of knowledge you are. Thanks for making these videos, I'm learning things I didn't even know to ask about!
Wow! thanks for the kind words. Really I'm just having fun. Surely you can see that in the videos. And I figure that if I can make someone's diving a bit easier or safer it's the least I can do. Scuba diving has been a big part of my life, most of my life and I've had experiences that I can't begin to describe to you, experiences so awesome that I sometimes doubt my own memory. But they happened and it's been simply wonderful. I'm outa' soon and I'd like to at least leave something for other divers to enjoy and benefit from. Maybe these videos are it.
Thanks again. Alec
There are other reasons DIN is better. 1. Lower profile. 2. DIN can take an impact way better than a yoke. 3. And like you said Alec, hold back more PSI. 4 And we don't blow O rings like a yoke. So, yes in my opinion yoke is inferior to DIN. I think yoke should just be phased out.
Many think so but all of North America is yoke so its like trying to get American's to go metric! Metric is smart, simple and world wide but nope, it's not American so no changes.
Every time I think of a question to ask Alec, he's already answered it in 2016.
DIN is Deutsches Institut für Normung (the German Institute for Standardization) which is Germany's organization that is part of the ISO standards group. A lot of ISO standards and many EU standards come from DIN originally (Like the DIN jack used for SVideo connections, the DIN connector used for the PC keyboard (both the original and more modern PS/2 smaller one before everything went USB) and also for MIDI connections for musical instruments, and many other things). Pretty much a lot like ANSI is in the US. The German's like standards. They make life better. :)
My understanding is that the DIN regulators come in both 5 thread (232Bar) and 7 thread (300Bar) versions, and that at least in Europe some people are using 300 Bar tanks (or near that, like 4500psi). The adaptable valve should be the 5 thread since you are not supposed to be able to convert a 300Bar to yoke of course. The regular with 7 thread will fit fine in a 5 thread valve, it just won't screw all the way in (which is fine and expected).
+Lennart Sorensen The reason the 232 bar DIN regulator has only 5 threads instead of 7 is so that it cannot be hooked up to a 300 bar tank valve...the regulator will not screw in enough to make a seal with the valve...this is to prevent damaging the regulator from the higher pressure than it is rated for.
There are not many DIN regulators on the market that are rating at 232 bar and most are at the entry level end of the spectrum such as the Aqualung Calypso. Since none of the international/yoke type valves are rated for 300 bar, any of the DIN regulators can be used on them with a yoke adapter.
The only thing to make sure of is that the correct yoke adapter is used with a 232 bar DIN reg. Some of the yoke adapters have 7 threads in them and again a 232 bar DIN reg will not screw in enough to make a seal. I learned this the hard way as my wife has a calypso regulator and we initially purchased the wrong yoke adapter for it. The 300 bar DIN regs will work fine with any of the yoke adapters.
The screw in adapter that Alec showed only has 5 threads and while it will screw into a 300 bar tank valve a yoke regulator or yoke adapter will not make contact with it to form a seal because it will be set in too far.
+Jeff Greenfield Yes it would be silly if the convertible vale had 7 threads since the 232bar 5 thread reg is plenty for a tank with such a valve. I have just used yoke so far, but I know my regulator is trivial to swap between yoke and DIN if I just got that piece for the regulator. Not sure if I will ever have a need for DIN given so far I have only done diving in Canada and the Caribbean where yoke seems to be what you always see.
+Lennart Sorensen I use Mares MR22/Abyss set up that I was able to get the DIN conversion kit very inexpensively (35 Euros). The benefit that I get from using DIN (I am currently stationed in Europe)...is that the 1st stage configuration is a bit lighter...while this doesn't mean anything when diving as the 1st stage is support by the tank...it makes a difference when packing for destination diving where airlines will charge ridiculous amounts of money if one is over the weight limit. This only works though if one's destination has tank valves that will accept DIN regulators....so far in my experience Egypt=yes, Philippines=yes, Thailand=no.
The DIN 1st stage and superflex hoses make for a nice light and compact travel set up. Also if travling with a DIN with Yoke adapter set up, the yoke can be taken off to keep things compact during travel.
Din has a higher max pressure and is more compact. It is objectively superior but everyone uses yoke here
The DIN connectors are pretty much everywhere outside North America, it does not necessarily make is superior unless in the eyes of the user. Both yoke and DIN meet the needs of divers in their geography and work well as designed. DIN has a higher maximum pressure because of its design, yokes work perfect for 3000 psi, 210 bar because that is their design limit. Everyone has their view and preferences, I'm showing options and information some new divers have never been exposed too. Enjoy your DIN's my friend.
It's 6:30 in the morning and the clock behind you says 9:35.Are you sure it's 6:30? ;)
That's Hollywood!!
OK. So some of my stories are embellished. Still sounds good right?
Truthfully I was giving Kevin a hard time. We were supposed to meet early but, he lives over an hour away and got caught in traffic.
Thanks for watching - so closely!
Alec
You say its 630 in the morning when u made this video why does the clock on the wall at the back say its 930?
I like this guy. He has a fun personality, and I love how he is VERY cautious about saying better. I noticed that well before he even started talking about the DIN regulators.
Thanks Erikk, better is a subjective word as both tanks work fine. Its the individual preference/prejudice than comes out in these discussions, not what works for you.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I completely agree. I like hearing peoples opinion, but to often "they" ("we" maybe? LOL) get opinions and facts mixed up.
Strange that the price of steel tanks are so much more than aluminium. In the UK steel tanks are cheaper than aluminium tanks and preferred due to their bouyancy characteristics. Maybe this is due to the majority of UK divers wearing drysuits due to water temperatures
Aluminum tanks are the most common in North America probably because there is lots of it available and so is very cheap.
This guy is like that Ron Popeil of scuba gear. haha
I have a "Steel 72" made in 1959. They used to use pipe threads to seal with Teflon tape.
More modern steel tanks use O-ring valves like aluminum 80's.
Aluminum 80's cannot be trusted after about 10 years old, some dive shops refuse to fill them since they can catastrophically fail from Sustained Load Cracking brittle fracture around the threads. The 6351 alloy also has age hardening over time which makes the alloy brittle.
Even the newer 6061 aluminum alloy tanks can be a "non-fill" after 10 years.
Aluminum tanks have a secondary eddy current test to look for cracks during hydro and some dive shops require it for annual inspections.
Steel tanks cost more, but they last longer. I have tanks made in the 70's/80's that will still pass hydro.
Yes, steel tanks can catastrophically fail as well but it's uncommon vs. aluminum 80's.
Rust (light haze) in a steel tank can be "tumbled" out and if the tank then passes hydro, it's good. Corrosion in an aluminum tank is an instant fail.
Rough estimate of strength: Aluminum is about 1/3 the density of steel, but it's also about 1/3 the strength so you need 3 times as much.
If you get a "boat fill" on a dive boat (some only fill to 1800--2000psi) the steel 72 holds more air that the aluminum 80 due to its larger internal volume.
In the 1980's there was a rash of failures on aluminum 80's due to the owners getting their tanks painted with a paint that had to be baked on at about 300--350 deg F. That was enough to soften the alloy and tanks were failing. Paint job looked fabulous, however.
interesting info. If your boat does low pressure fill, than LP steel are the way to go (a guy had a 120LP steel on my last trip and it looks like a water heater compared to my HP100!) but luckily they can fill to 3600psi but had them top mine off a few time after cooling off to get the full 3500psi my tank can take.
Please show the home made tanks and regs.... Gotta see this.
I love all your videos Alec. Hope to dive with you one day!
I was in the market for a used tank, and ended up going with High Pressure 100 steel, which happened to match the ones I had been renting all along). Here is something to consider. While ALU80 are cheap (about $170 online vs HP80 at $280) if you look at getting the higher capacity 100cf (I'm tall guy and like to stay as long as possible, not a problem with a drysuit even in cold 50deg waters in Monterrey) then ALU100 are much closer in price vs steel ($280 vs $330) but the worse part is the weight. Catalina 100cf is listed at 42lbs vs 34lbs for faber100 (whopping 8lbs heavier!) yet buoyancy is only -5.2lbs vs -8.41 full so you need an extra 3lbs of lead as well. That's 11lbs difference which is a lot to carry when I already have a belt with 26-30# and a full tank...
The difference between Catalina 80 (32#, -1.8) vs faber HP80 (28.6#, -8) is similar 3.4lbs heavier, yet 6.2# more of lead needed.
The tank I got (XS Scuba/Worthington X7-100) is ever better buoyancy listed at -10lbs full (I measure mine at -13.2lbs in pool water! and only 1.5# heavier on land than faber's HP listing). If I switched to standard CF80 ALU I calculated I would need to add 11 lbs of lead to my already 26# belt - Yike! :( (13.2 - 1.8 not taking into account salt water)
Most shop and people who knows dive HP steel here (cold water) for a reason. In tropics where you don't need much weight at all, ALU80 might be ok (not ALU100 running the numbers I did above!). ALU is HEAVIER due to thicker walls on land, yet not as high psi so more floaty (bigger water volume displacement) and actually FLOAT when near empty which you don't want diving IMO. The thing going for ALU80 is the price (and cool colors!), but that delta disappears in larger sizes (less common)...
fascinating video - no wonder ALU80 are cheap
ua-cam.com/video/OmSvbp2NFbc/v-deo.html
Great information all divers can use. Alec has enough enthusiasm to keep me interested in the entire video. Wonderful work. Please keep it up. Sub'd
Thanks Still.
Alec
Nice video as always. Can you make a video addressing how a steel is better when diving due to its buoyancy characteristics?
Working on it.
Alec
Alec, have you ever come across titanium tanks? I worked for a guy who owned three which I used to dive. No markings on the tanks, supposedly they are from Europe and there are less than 20 in the world. Would love to see a video on this if you can find one!
That's a new one to me SSP.
I suppose they are very light, and strong too.
Also Titanium is resistant to corrosion (it forms a protective oxide layer on exposure to air that protects the metal underneath just like aluminum) from air or water, whether fresh or salt, even to acids
But they'd be expensive for sure. Maybe a titanium-coated tank would be cheaper.
Many "titanium" products are really just titanium coated. I mentioned in another video for divers to watch out for "titanium" products like dive knives and regulators that are not really made from titanium. Some products labelled titanium are just painted a titanium color! Totally useless!
And then a diver needs to consider the buoyancy of the tank. It took quite a while before manufacturers found the right combination of weight and size for aluminum tanks so they'd not be too buoyant to use.
Neat idea though.
Thanks.
Alec
Great info, Alec. Thank you. What are your thoughts on the effects of sunlight exposure in regards to the life of the tank, when using aluminum or steel? I often dive from a jet ski, and the tank (along with the rest of my gear) is always sitting in sunlight all the way to and from the dive site. Assuming they’re both taken care of well with the same level of maintenance, will steel tanks have a longer lifespan in these conditions? Or no difference at all?
Far as I know, the sun has no effect on tanks. It may fade the paint but that's about it.
In most warmer dive locations, tanks will sit all day, every day in the sun.
Alec
Your hoses and neoprene will suffer far more from direct sunlight than the tanks. Especially hoses should not be kept in the sun.
Do they make carbon fiber tanks?
That's what they use for air guns and they hold 4,500 psi
They are available for scuba diving. The problem is the cost. Air gun size is much too small for scuba. The large ones required for diving would be in the $600+ range.
Then you have the problem of buoyancy. You'd have to wear a lot of extra weight.
Maybe one day we'll get it sorted out.
Alec
Carbon fiber tanks are common with fire figthers. it makes sense that you would want as little weigth as possible running in to a building on fire. But for diving you still need to make up for that weight in lead so that in combination with price makes it pointless. i remember when the fire departments started to switch from steel to carbon tanks in my country becus all the fire stations would seel the old steel tanks cheap. So here it is not uncommon to se divers with the 2x7L steel tanks that the fire figthers used to use
Looked after i believe steel tanks will last longer. I have 4 x Faber 12l (100's) that are 25 years old, 2 120's and 4 x7l sling tanks also Faber that are 20 years and have been hydro-statically tested ever year ( i'm an Aussie ) they show little rust issues and i live in a tropical climate. Aluminium on the other hand fatigues particularly around the thread ( micro cracks ) and suffer stretch under testing causing failure . My mate is a hydro- static tester and was almost killed by a valve tearing out of a aluminium tank under testing it shot out of the tank as it flung on the whip and embedded itself in the wall narrowly missing the side of his head by inches.. ( dont mess with compressed air it's very dangerous stuff ) Not an Aluminium tank fan at all
I'm pretty sure you're right Ian. The big "if" is "looked after".
Scuba divers are notorious for NOT taking good care of their gear and that certainly includes tanks. In fact, tanks are probably the most neglected piece of scuba gear.
With care, a steel tank will last forever. I have some from the 1950s that are like new. The newer ones, like your Faber, are better.
However, an aluminum tank will withstand the abuse that most scuba tanks suffer better than a steel tank.
BTW, neck cracks are pretty much non-existent now. A valve that bursts out of a tank is a sign of neglect. The tank threads were not inspected.
Thanks for watching and for your comments.
Alec
Then there are the crazy europeans. We take an 80 size steel tank with even thicker walls and fill it to 300bar = 127 cu Ft. (Thanks, google calc).. no double 80 or anything. Just the size of one 12l and less weight on the bcd/ belt.
Right. You just need arms like KingKong to carry it.
Take care.
Alec
A few even put these monsters together as twin sets. More tend to use twin 10ltrs than 12ltrs. The 10s are roughly equivalent to your 72cuft.
Yes the tanks are heavy, but this means that they carry little extra weight in the water.
Outstanding stuff!! So educational.
Hey great video, I’m a new diver and these videos are very helpful, keep it up!
Thanks Alex.
I hope you're getting some good ideas.
Alec
My auto-correct just tried to change your name to Alec!!!
Alec Peirce Scuba thanks for replying, nice to see a creator replying to his fans, this has helped me a lot in knowing how to be a good diver!
PS your really funny and makes the videos fun and also a learning experience, great job!
-Alex
What's been your experience with those no-name Chinese made aluminum tanks that have been making their way here in Canada? Are they safe and will dive shops fill them?
Didn't know they were here. When I owned my dive stores only USA made tanks were sold. Never a problem with then to sell, service, VIP or hydro. I'll take a look at these but if foreign tanks are allowed in, they must meet all the same tech and certifications as any tank.
Alec, my understanding is that the main arena that DIN is considered "better" is when diving in an overhead environment such as wreck penetration, caves, caverns, ect. The idea is that if the 1st stage is bumped hard against the overhead it is less likely to be dislodged/leak with a DIN configuration than a Yoke configuration. For most recreational divers this is not an issue as the vast majority of recreational divers do not dive in an overhead environment. Also, it was great that you showed a DIN to Yoke valve adapter....viewers might also be interested in knowing that Yoke adapters for DIN type 1st stages exist too.
I love my black epoxy twin 45 steelies. Still prefer the short package. Time flies.
Ripper Tech Tip.
Could you please consider a 300 Bar versus 232 Bar Cylinder comparison and Twin verses Single Cylinders?
I'd love to hear your perspective and overview.
If you want to start a argument inside of a dive shop ask someone which is better steel or aluminum. Everybody has their own opinion. I personally only use aluminum. It doesn't matter if I'm wearing my heavy wetsuit or even my dry suit I dial in my buoyancy.
Then you have the whole argument about should you buy your own tanks or just rent them. Even before I was certified I owned all my own equipment. Every week as I was getting certified I would buy what I needed and by the time we went to the quarry I have owned all my own stuff. Same thing with the scuba tanks. I'm not saying that when you travel that you would get a bad tank with bad o-rings but why take the chance.
I will tell you that after your discussion on the steel tank I might actually get one and trying out this year. I like the fact of the more air seeing that the older I get the faster my tank goes dry.
Divers have strong opinions and will argue over anything, fins, tanks, yoke vs DIN. They mostly confuse facts with personal preference and geographical preferences. I give the facts and let others argue nonsense. Keep an open mind and question everything until your satisfied with the answers.
Alec
Great video! Very informative on cylinders. I chose a DIN regulator because I prefer relying on the beefier o-ring that's in my possession rather than those thinner o-rings found on yoke rental tanks. My reg came with a yoke adapter so I'm set either way.
Steel tanks 12 LTS is the best opcion vs 80 Al. tanks More air. less weight on you belt and you pay the same price like Al if you Rent the tanks. If You dive with steel tanks you never come back to Al.tanks,......well maybe the sidemount divers for others reaasons. Nice video
Thanks for sharing Manuel.
Thank you Alec! Would love to see a future tech tip about Fins. In an earlier tech tip you had one the scuba pro novas. Would love to hear you discuss fin styles paddle, split and full foot or your ideas about what to look for when in the market for upgrading your fins.
Hello Alec, I'm in the beginning stages of Tech Dive training and am trying to choose tanks for doubles. I know I want steel for the weight I'm just not sure of Low Pressure vs. High Pressure and what size would be best. Can you elaborate on the differences between LP/HP and volume?
There are lots of factors to decide between the two, kind of like saying are blonds or red heads better? I won't write a thesis but hit on a few major points now. Try searching or posting on www.scubaboard.com for help from the dive community.
HP's are shorter than the LP, it puts its weight higher toward your head but have excellent weight to volume ratios. Getting good fills may be a problem as not all LDS can fill HP's (easy to fill to 3000 psi but harder to hit 3500). Your reg must be compatible with HP and use a 300 DIN adaptor to operate at a working pressure of 4350 psi. No yokes used with HP's. You need to decide which buoyancy properties are best for your diving. Only a few points to get you started but keep researching and if in doubt, ask you LDS or a buddy to try each to see how it feels. Take care Blake.
DIN also ha less potential points of failure. Also with yoke you run through O-rings like it’s nobody’s business. When I use to work in the industry. I always had a pack of new O-rings for yoke valves with me. I went to maybe four to five packs per season. With DIN I had maybe six to ten O-ring changes per season.
This will be a never ending discussion just like which is the best fin, dive computer, BC etc. If your comfortable with a particular setup, have fun diving.
I’m writing a term paper about the evolution of materials used to create diving tanks, and your channel has been quite useful to learn the basics of this equipment. I’m not personally a diver, so a quick educational video like these are a great start. Thanks.
Good. Glad to help.
It was an evolutionary process. The first were steel. They they added chromium to make them harder. But that also made them brittle so they added molybdenum to increase flexibility. And then aluminum came along.
But your term paper could get very complicated. since even aluminum tanks come in a dozen different alloys, each with its own characteristics. A few years ago, one of those alloys caused problems and some tanks actually exploded after much use. Obviously they had to change the alloy used.
As I said, it's been an evolutionary process with mistakes and improvements along the away.
Thanks for watching.
Alec
Steel tanks are standard in Europe. You can't even buy aluminium tanks in divestores. My standard tank contains 12 liters and can be filled up to 300 bars. A lot of air for one dive that gives extra for emergencys or unforseen surcomstances. Ofcourse 300 bar is only possible with DIN, yoke is only up to 200 bar. Steel tanks only have to be visual checked any 2,5 years instead of every year, they are more rugged. As the comment below suggests, DIN is more compact. In my opinion: DIN has more advantages over yoke.
That's one of the many scuba discussions DIN vs yoke. Most views depend on if you use metric or imperial units. I have several videos on yoke vs DIN and adapters that may interest you. Thanks for watching.
Aluminium tanks are avaiable everywhere in Europe but they are mostly used as stage and deco bottles. Rec divers often use them together with for ex a steel 12x232 tank(12 liter steel, 232 bar tank) to make longer dives. They are also often used for sidemount even if most divers prefer steel because of our drysuits. Take care Alec!👌🤿
Having now dived with both steel and aluminium, i think i prefer the buoyancy characteristics of the aluminium. No scientific reason, just personal preference, but that's probably down to me having more experience with aluminium.
did you remember to take a bunch of weight off your BCD/belt for the steel tank ? too much weight can be annoying constantly adjusting your BCD...
much better boyancy (and they don't float or pull on your back when close to empty at the end of the dive.
Once again another informative video. There are very few people with you knowledge and experience wanting to share, keep it up Alec!
awesome job, thank you.
You sir are the Mr Rogers of Scuba 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Hmmm. I've been compared to a lot of crazy people but that's the first time for Mr. Rogers.
I'm going to assume that's a compliment for which I thank you.
Alec
These are great friggin vids !! Thanks so much for the insight...As a new diver they have been super beneficial :)
I'm so glad they've been helpful.
Thanks for watching.
Alec
In my opinion DIN has one more advantage over Yoke. The O-Ring is in the Reg, not in the tank valve.
So it is the diver's responsibility to have a proper O-Ring in his Reg and everything will be fine. With Yoke you have to rely on the Dive Center.
For example renting a tank, not checking it in advance and finding out that the O-Ring is broken when you finally arrive at the dive site isn't a funny situation.
Kons G this happened to me during my PADI course. We drove 2 hours to the dive site and found out o ring was faulty. Luckily my instructor carried spare o rings. I want to use DIN for this reason.
There are as many O-Rings in a DIN reg/valve assembly as with a yoke. In fact, if the DIN valve is a converter valve as is more common these days, there are MORE in a DIN. DIN or yoke, inspection and annual replacement of O-Rings is necessary to avoid missing a dive.
A tank must have an annual visual inspection. We always replace both O-Rings - the neck which both DIN and yoke have and the face O-Ring of a yoke style. O-Rings cost like $1.20. I've had divers argue with me that they don't need a new one because they replaced it "just last year".
So it isn't the valve style. It's diver care.
One small point is that if the DIN O-Ring in your regulator fails, your instructor or buddy won't have a spare unlike yoke O-Rings which are very common. You better carry one.
I'm not sure I agree that a diver is more careful about maintenance than a dive shop. Although I must admit to seeing some pretty sad tanks at dive resorts.
Take care. Alec
That's fair enough Alec :)
I just got the personal impression that we have problems with Yoke every now and then (currently doing my Divemaster internship in Asia), while i've never seen a Problem with DIN in Germany before.
My Reg (Apeks DS4) has a spare O-Ring on the outside of the dust cap, so i have it with me automatically ;)
Boy, that sounds like a great idea right?
Many divers do the same thing - they keep a spare O-Ring, whether tank face O-Ring for yokes or DIN for their regulator, attached to the reg somehow. Yoke divers can simply put one on the threads of the yoke screw under the knob. DINs can be attached to the DIN cap or just a cord on the regas you suggest.
Here's the problem. Unless you are one of those 1 in a 1000 divers who checks and replaces everything all the time, you won't even look at your spare O-Ring until you need it. Am I right? Be honest. So, by the time you need it, it's been hanging there for 2 or 3 years (or more) and is so dried out and cracked it's useless.
I see it all the time when servicing regs. I notice a spare O-Ring on the reg, check it and it's toast!
Just change them every year without fail. They will easily last a year unless you leave it in the sun and salt all the time. Alec
You're absolutely right Alec, i'm not the one out of the 1000 😀
I only dive with steel tanks with a DIN regulator. Aluminum tanks are way too buoyant for my taste. (plus they usually can hold up to 200BAR s, whereas the steel ones are usually 232 bar or even 300.) Of course, all this is a matter of personal preference. What is of great importance however is the maintenance of your tanks, and making sure that they are given to a professional for a hydrostatic test, or for visual inspection. In Europe, a visual inspection should be conducted once a year, and the hydrostatic (depending on manufacturer's specifications) every 3 or 5 years.
same in the US (1 year viz, 5y hydro). Wish HP steel were more common here (what I also use, but yoke as DIN are harder to find deals on) and closer in price to ALU (which they are in Europe I understand). They are much more efficient (lighter yet better buoyancy - how about that!)
Hmm, here all tanks (or most of them as far as I know) are DIN but they all come with a yoke adapter which you just have to screw on and you're all set, in case you have a yoke regulator. No need to carry around an adapter.
also ive found new steel tanks cost only 350 now get the steel tanks boys and girls.
Debates around steel vs aluminum are as heated as split fins vs jetfins. Everyone has a preference and opinion. Take care Max.
Im guess i can be quite happy about acquiring a new faber hp120 for 267 euros. Fyi im a german on vacation in croatia.
It's only a good deal after it passes visual and hydro testing, then you can tell everyone.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Its a 100% new one.
I wish he would talk in BAR for us europeans hahaha! For the whole of this video I was like, "how much is 3500psi? Is that 232 Bar?". Also interesting how aluminium tanks seems to be regular in NA, in Europe I've actually only ever dived steel.
Sorry Tom but I'm only 'mostly metric'. My kids and grandkids are totally metric but I need reference cards to convert properly for my metric viewers.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Oh well, I suppose it's only a small price to pay when watching your vids, haha! This is still my go to place for scuba tips . Keep up the great work!
The Faber Steel actually come in a 133. I have dove the grand daddy many times.
I guess they are good underwater. It's on land that I can't stand the big steel tanks. Especially doubles!!
We have a very avid diver, quite good and well-trained, who might be 5'4" tall and weigh 140 pounds. He uses twin 130's. It's pretty amusing to watch him haul them around and put them on.
He uses a moving dolly to bring them in for fills.
Take care.
Alec
Liar. 6:30 and yet the clock on the wall shows 9:30 and ging forward it is 9:45 Hmmmmmm
Not sure your point Gene as I'm comparing tanks and don't see how the clock matters. Am i missing something?
A
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter 0:10: "It's six-thirty in the morning."
Clock on the wall reads 9:35.
thanks Alec!! I always look forward to your videos. they really make my day!!
Thank you for the video. It is always nice to hear a sensible voice. Definitely, a steel cylinder needs more care.
I personally dive steel DINs but use an adapter abroad as required. The DIN fitting I find is less bulky which is useful with side mount configurations. It is also idiot proofing with regards to high pressure cylinders in that the 300bar DIN cylinders have 7 turn threads, whereas the 237bar DIN have 5 turns. A first stage DIN that is rated for 237bar has only 5 turns on the screw so when fitted to a 300bar cylinder will not seal and will leak loudly when turned on, whereas a 300bar regulator will still work on a 237bar cylinder (2 turns will remain exposed after the first stage is screwed in).
The Oring is the same size for both DIN and yoke which is very nice. DIN O rings are lost on removal or replacement of the first stage, but as you say, they are captured rings otherwise.
I would also add that a Faber 12.2L steel filled to working pressure (232bar) weighs a teeny little bit less that a Luxfer Ali80 filled to working pressure (3000psi), while holding more breathing air. That means I carry more air, for the same weight on my back, plus I get to lose about 2kg of lead from my belt. Win-win!
Thanks CK. All good points.
Right about the 200 vs 300 BAR fitting too. When pressures rose a few years ago (everything to me is a few years ago. It could have been 25 years ago but it's still a "few"), the 200 BAR fitting was upgraded and they wisely made the new 300 BAR fitting fit into the old 200 BAR valve but not vice versa. Mounting a 200 BAR fitting into a tank at 300 BAR would not have been good.
I still have trouble converting scuba tanks in liters to cubic feet so I'll take your word on that. Makes sense.
Thanks again for the info.
Alec
Here are the numbers in imperial if you want it (gas density 0.074887 lb/cu ft for dry air at 70°F, total weight not including cylinder valves)
Luxfer Aluminium 80
Working pressure 3000 psi
Internal volume 0.3920 cu ft
Volume of gas @ WP 81.14 cu ft
Weight of gas 6.09lb
Weight of cylinder 31.52lb
Total weight on land 37.61lb
Faber Steel 12L
Working Pressure 3365 psi
Internal volume 0.4308 cu ft
Volume of gas @ WP 99.95 cu ft
Weight of gas 7.51lb
Weight of cylinder 29.76lb
Total weight on land 37.27lb
I ran similar numbers below. the Faber 12.2L is really a 100cf tank - similar to the worthingtons HP100 I own. You should really be comparing a HP80 (faber 10L ?) to 80Cf alu standard... as you show it's slightly lighter on land, but holds 25% more air, but you're missing the bouyancy numbers! I found HP steel tank benefit to be a wooping 10lbs savings (land + lead around waist) vs Alu *of same air volume*. AND they don't lift up at the end...
I used a Faber 12 in the example because that’s what’s on the video and Alec mentioned that it was heavier than the Al80, which it’s not. Alec already mentioned the buoyancy benefits. A Faber 10L does store the same volume of air as an Al80 at working pressure
Does not ? above you have 12L WP = 99.95cf, so a 10L should be 83.29cf at same WP.
Alec made a mistake in his video say the steel tank was heavier (it's 25% bigger! even then not really but close). Have to compare apples to apples.
Faber also makes/made a "steel 95" low pressure tank very popular with Techies. (Some use older steel 104's also, but getting rarer.) The 95 is 95 cf at approx. 2400 psi, as rated in the US. However, tech/cave divers (agree or disagree, trust me, it's done at tech/cave dive shops everyday) overfill these tanks to 3600-3800 psi. Approx 140 CF of gas! Set of doubles, 280 cf! I was told that European stds allow this same tank filled to 300 bar, over 4000 psi, which is used as justification for US overfills. Any Europeans can shed any light on this?
It may be true that tanks will withstand higher than stamped pressure. This is not a new idea William.
Years ago it was common to overfill the good ol' steel 72 too.
But ...
1. it's illegal in many jurisdictions
2. it can lead to practical problems with O-Rings and valve connections
3. It shortens the life-span of the tank
4. it definitely risks a burst disc failure
5. it risks the safety of the fill station operator
.... all for a few extra minutes underwater.
There are very high pressure, high capacity tanks available (4500 psi/310BAR) but they are expensive. So all the risk comes down to money.
It reminds me of my neighbor who regularly overloads his trailer and tows it around on the highway with the suspension completely compressed, tires flattened, truck straining, brakes inadequate, all to save buying a new one.
Eventually some will get hurt or die. The cost then will be much, much more than doing it right (DIR).
Ironic that tech divers who claim to hold the high road on diving safety would condone such an obviously unsafe practice.
Take care.
Alec
I heard the same story when I sold a double 85LP faber tank to a tech diver... but I think they said that tank stamped WP was much higher in Europe than 2400psi here. Official WP not what the tank can take/overfill to. Would be interesting to read the European version markings on it...
I did it for years, many do, but always wondered, never heard of anyone having an issue.
I still have my first tank from 1973, a US Divers Mark 1, which is an aluminum 80 rated for 3000 PSI. It is the same brand of tank that was in the first Jaws movie and exploded the shark. I think this was the first available aluminum 80. No shop will fill it anymore because of it's age. (so I fill it myself to 2000 PSI) Now I prefer 100 cubic foot high pressure steel tanks.
The exploding tank in Jaws was pure theatre wasn't it! Do be careful filling any tank to ensure it gets a hydro every 5 years and annual visual. I have a Tech Tip on tank inspections coming up in about 3 weeks you will find helpful.
Thanks for watching.
Alec
Myth Busters TV show did an episode involving scuba tanks getting shot with a rifle. The result was not like the Jaws movie. It was more like what happens when you let go of an inflated rubber balloon. Yet I've read stories and seen pictures about what happens when an old aluminum tank fails while being filled. So have all the dive shops which is why they won't fill old aluminum tanks from the seventies. I find your videos to be very informative even though I'm not a novice diver.
I saw that Myth Busters too. my buddy was diving his 80/100cf alu until I showed him my 100HP tank which are lighter and slightly smaller than even 80 alu outside volume. Sold all his alu tanks and went HP steel.... the only ones we kept are the 50cf alu from the 80s for the pool and kids - quite light even for 1/2 the capacity.
you mentioned the yoke is made of steel along with the DIN fitting , most regulator and valve parts are made of plated brass
You're quite right right Ralph. All valves, whether yoke, doubles or triples are made of brass, usually chrome plated although some have a flat finish and some have a 'titanium' finish (not really Titanium). Unfortunately, many of the threaded parts, nuts, couplers, etc. are made of steel so it's very common for divers to overtighten things in a mistaken effort to make sure they don't leak and strip the threads. A good example is the port plugs or the hose ends. The real irritation here is that the port plugs doesn't strip - it's steel. The body of the regulator strips! Thanks for watching and catching that slip. Alec
Alec Peirce Scuba all? how about those fancy Atomic titanium regs...
Yup some regs are titanium , not suitable for oxygen service , I wouldn't use them for nitrox either unless you exclusively do dive travel and weight is a big issue for you good old brass regs are a better option as brass is less brittle brass also gives far superior cold water performance having a thermal conductivity of around 110 watts per meter per Kelvin where as titanium is around 20.
Pretty huh? In my opinion, for titanium regs that's what you're buying - looks.
Contrary to what an Atomic fan will tell you, which he undoubtedly heard from an Atomic salesperson, and as Ralph has pointed out, titanium has one single advantage - weight. It's lighter than other metals used in regs. But you pay a lot of money for that small weight saving. Realize that you're talking only about the first stage body. All the rest of the regulator is the same as all others on the market.
And, again has Ralph has mentioned, there are actually some disadvantages to titanium. It isn't just the lower thermal capacity of titanium, it's the smaller mass. I used an old (1975) DACOR 400 for many years and it was the best I ever used under the ice. It was so big, solid and brass that it took forever to cool enough for the moisture in the air to freeze. Not the best for travel maybe but great for diving in cold water.
Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge. When I began diving the all titanium regulators looked like a big advantage with their superior resistance to corrosion. As I later learned about using 50-100% O2 for deco titanium all of a sudden became a pretty metal that may spontaneously burn...not so good. They are kind of like an exotic sports car, shiny, expensive, and not so practical. Love your videos!
You are a true wealth of knowledge, thanks, super-interesting.
This guy is great
A little louder please!!
I'm not sure if I'm great or just old and have done a lot of stuff.
I'm happy to share and I'm pleased that you're enjoying it.
Alec
Thanks for the great video Alec, You mention the new steel Faber to be heavier than the Catalina Alloy 80L?
I have a faber 12.2l (100 Cubic feet) and Also a current Catalina (80Cubic feet). Both have the same valves, on the scales The Alloy Catalina weighs 14.3kg and the Steel Faber(232bar) weighs 13.2kg.
+madrx2 are those full weights or empty weights? Alec is correct about divers choosing one tank material over the other for the negative bouyancy but what he did not mention is that it is at the end of the dive where this is most relevant. The heavier tank of the same volume is less buoyant when closer to empty...this allows a diver to dive with less weight on their belt/in their BC while not bobbing to the surface like a cork from their safety stop depth at the end of a dive.
***** Yep, the density of the steel makes them more negatively buoyent. It all makes sense to me now . Thanks Alec!
Great refresher tutorial Alec!! Thank you very much for your time.
Thanks for watching Kris.
Alec
I get my tanks inspected once a year
I am hard headed i like steel
My tankd are yellow
You and Kevin are similar, he uses only steel 100's and loves them. Thanks for the comment sir.
Thanks. Have really been enjoying your videos.
Great stuff. Thank you Sir.
Missed a very obvious difference between aluminium and steel tanks. Aluminium tanks have a flat bottom, steel are round bottomed with a rubber boot so they can be stood upright.
alec I have 2 older steel tanks that have certainly been completely empty for a few years. my question is. if they have some rust inside can they be cleaned and re certified ?
Well, it's not good that they've been completely empty but they may survive. Have your LDS (local dive store) do a quick visual check to see if they're OK. Then get a hydro test and proper visual. If they pass, they're good to go. I suggest the quick visual first to see if they should even go to hydro. If there's signs of serious rust because of moisture or even high humidity, there's no point spending money on a hydro. Most older steel tanks show some rust. It's called surface rust and is not a problem if it isn't corroded into the steel and isn't loose. They can do a quick clean with a special brush or if needed, tumble the tanks to scour the inside. Even then they will likely get a thin rusty finish on the inside but that's not a problem. When a tank is hydro tested, it's filled with water and unless it can be dried instantly (almost impossible) it will develop surface rust. We use a rust inhibitor in the final rinse and very hot water and an air dryer but some rust is inevitable. Hopefully they are not too bad and can be saved. I don't need to tell you that you must keep some presssure in them at all times. Just 100psi is enough. You also need to consider the cost. An older steel 72, tested and ready to go, is worth about $100. A hydro and visual will cost you about $50 or $60 so be sure the tanks are worth saving before you start spending money. Good luck. Alec
I need a tech tip ... My Nikonos 4A has a bad battery holder and I need to know how to replace it and where I can get parts for my Nikonos 4A ...
There are stores that cater to Nikonos camera fans. The best place is probably eBay. You can get a complete Nikonos iv body for $30. You could use it to practice getting the battery compartment out and then install it in yours. Full service manuals are also available. Good luck. Alec
Alec, it's okay to call someone an "Airhog".Thanks for sharing!
Enjoying the tech. Super great stuff. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Glad you enjoy it Tom.
I just want to say thank you for all you videos, they are all helpful and expertly done. Very very educational.
You are indeed a very knowledgeable and very cool dude, even a bit modest, I might add. No I'm not from Hollywood. lol Keep up the good work my brother.
I still us US Divers in ka six 80s and 2 sets of twin 50s
If a diver takes good care of their gear, it can last a long time like twin 50's. Thanks for watching.
you are awesome for making these videos! Thank you!
Glad you like them!
12L / 230bar steel tanks are pretty much the standard in central Europe.
Yes I know. EU divers are generally more fit or at least act it. They are prepared to carry heavier tanks particularly if there's a perceived benefit such as longer dives. I say perceived because the benefits of a steel tanks are sometimes overblown - negative buoyancy (no big deal in warm water), more air (good for air hogs but silly for small ladies), higher pressure (ditto and not really a benefit since that's harder on the tank, the valve and regulator not to mention greater risk to the fill station), longer dives (Diana and I were underwater in Key Largo for 1 hour & 54 minutes on an 80!!) and DIN valves (also an overblown perception of superiority which is debatable and not even necessary).
I'm not down on steel tanks. I used them for 25 years but I do object to any diver who states that they (or any piece of gear) is the ONLY way to go. It's just not so.
Alec
Steel tanks cost the same as aluminum ones in Europe and since water is very cold here, the extra weight is a good thing for us. The only people using alu tanks around here are technical divers who use them as stage bottles. Not to spark a discussion, just to tell you how things are in other places.
Absolutely. I'm always anxious to learn about diving in other places. I'm so fortunate to have dived around the world, almost everywhere imaginable. I had an opportunity to dive off Portsmouth a few years back when we were in England. Unfortunately time wasn't in our favor. It would have been fun.
Here steel tanks cost at least 3X more than Aluminum 80s - $550 vs >$200. Then you have the cost of DIN adapters at $100+ so here the cost is a factor for sure.
Many divers here have 2, 3 or more tanks.
Take care. Alec
that's pretty expensive steel. here in Germany a new 12L (little more than 80cuf) cylinder costs about $250, steel or alu, with DIN double valves (because of the cold water, it's customary to use two 1st stages).
Alec said: "Here steel tanks cost at least 3X more than Aluminum 80s - $550 vs >$200"
But online they are only $80-100 more - Faber HP80 (10.2l) $259 shipped, vs Luxfer 80cf Alu $169 (-$90)
www.leisurepro.com/p-fbrhp/faber-high-pressure-steel-tank
www.leisurepro.com/p-luxta8/luxfer-80-cubic-foot-aluminum-tank-with-pro-valve
and since they are 3442psi (and not 3500psi) they come with Yoke/DIN valves as you know so no need to change your first stage either... I do think 10lbs different (see other thread) is SIGNIFICANT... who wouldn't want that saving even in the tropics ? unless it is too much neg buoyancy at -8lbs of course.
alewar777, interesting about the double valves. I was wondering about that when looking at the DIVECARBON 300 tanks (which while interesting don't make much sense saving you only 3lbs effective weight with such exotic build and fill requirement and price...
These tips are so great. I have a question, feel ignorant. I usually come back with plenty of air when buddies are low. I thought
Why should I have to bear the weight of the heavy tanks (getting hard on the knees). So I bought a 30 cubic foot tank, thinking
it would have less PSI. I walked from my car to the water and it was so nice and light and not cumbersome. Just going for a swim to check buoyancy with this tank and to my surprise it has 3000psi. How did that happen?
OK Head clearer now. 30 cubic feet is measurement of volume of air
at surface and is compressed to 3000psi just like a higher volume would be. So I have less than 1/2 the air that would be in an 80 cubic foot tank.. What threw me off was that when I went in the water to check buoyancy with this tank, I was under water 20 minutes and only at 2000 psi. I think this will be fine for my shallow offshore dives, maybe even shallow water boat dives in the area. In nature I like to be still
and let things come to me. I like to hover in the water. Most trips with
others are constant swimming, swimming, swimming. Everyone always seems to be in a hurry.
Right you are.
The North American measurement system is more practical. It tells you how much air you have available to breathe rather than telling you the size of the tank.
Since you use about 1 cubic foot of air per minute at the surface, an 80 cubic foot tank will last about 80 minutes. As you descend you use more air per minute so the supply doesn't last as long. But as you've discovered, the air pressure in the tank is the same - 3000psi. Just the size of the tank changes.
Cool channel mate 😉😉😉
Thanks Ruby.
Alec
Luxfer were making Aluminium cylinders in the late 60's early 70's.
Yep! I have a couple of 'torpedo' bottles made by Luxfer in the late 1970's.
Luxfer has a fascinating company history that can be read on its website. Their first tanks were made in 1958!
The earliest scuba tanks from Luxfer were odd in that they were designed to compete with the standard scuba tank for the time, the venerable steel 72. Luxfers first scuba tanks were the same diameter and the same pressure as the 72. To get a higher air capacity they were a bit longer so, picture a long, skinny scuba tank. It was nicknamed the torpedo bottle - 6.75" in diameter with a working pressure of 2475psi. That was the same size and pressure of a steel 72 including the 10% overfill but longer by several inches.
Buoyancy problems soon led to the design of the current Aluminum 80 at 3000psi and it has since replaced the steel 72 as the scuba tank of choice around the world.
This might be a good Tech Tips topic.
Thanks for your comment.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter The reason for the strange capacity/physical size of the Luxfer Cylinders was that they were designed to fit the Royal Navy SABA (Swimmers Air Breathing Apparatus) sets in use at the time.
And the rig had a high pressure reducer at the (inverted) manifold end and a low pressure at the (upper) end of the manifold where the twin hose feed then went to a full face mask.
John Wayne of SCUBA!
That's right pilgrim!!!
Great videos. I always learn something new when I watch these. Thank you!
DIN and Steel Tanks are pretty much de rigueur in the UK and most of Europe. Although we would never mount them turret up like in this video. The turret should always be down.
I assume by turret you are referring to the tank valve?
I have not heard that term before but my BSAC affiliation exposed me to other terminology differences between US and UK divers such as bottle, kit, costume, torch, etc.
Alec Peirce Scuba By turret I mean the LP side of the regs (particularly on piston regs where it's often free to rotate) where the hoses are attached. If that's at the top then it's more exposed to be knocked against bits of wreck. Keeping the LP side down protects as much of it as possible behind the tank valve. It's one of the main reasons I prefer DIN regs, they allow for a lower profile; handy during wreck penetration.
Ok. I think I understand. Depending on the regulator, it's possible mount them in different ways on the valve. Let's call it 'up' or 'down'.
When 'up' the LP ports are high, probably sticking well above the actual valve and they may be more exposed. This is most noticeable on swivel regulators that allow the hose to swing around for comfort - think Scubapro MK 25, but can apply to non-swivel as well.
If mounted 'down' the LP ports are below the valve opening and are somewhat protected by the valve. This would be preferred but it would also remove the swivel action of a swivel reg. That's not a big deal in most cases.
Am I following you?
Alec
Alec Peirce Scuba Yep that's what I'm talking about. I dive with an Atomic B2 DIN fitting, and I've found with the position of the LP ports I still get enough rotation.
I do have a tip I've found though. As someone who dives frequently in limestone quarries, I've found my clips and bolt snaps get covered in limescale. This tends to make them more difficult to operate. So occasionally I soak them in a hot citric acid solution for around 15 minutes, they come out good as new. All that's needed is anhydrous citric acid dissolved in hot water. When I take them out I rinse them in freshwater. It works well because citric avoid is strong enough to dissolve limescale without affecting anything else.
"Should always" be down? They "should" be mounted the way the diver prefer, period. For instance, up north in Canada I mount it down for protection, because we dive mostly shipwrecks up there. in sunny Florida where I currently am I mount it up, better swivel action for comfort.
why didn't you talk about lp cylinders vs hp cylinders. high pressure tank vs low pressure and what are the advantages and disadvantages?????? steel lp vs steel hp vs aluminum...
***** hahaha your so right its a big field i'm learning and your channel is teaching me so much i want to start scuba classes as soon as possible. i order all my scuba gear on line except the tank.. the tank was given to me as a gift on my birrthday its a faber 108 lp
is this a good starting tank??
+Rudy Castro Perfect tank and size.
Have fun.
Alec
I only use steel 72's ... why? 'cause, without a wet suit I'm neutrally buoyant without a weight belt! The tank sinks me! I also use a Hydrotwin II and love it !!!
All I need is a 72; I'm diabetic and my doctor said "no deco diving!" I can go into deco with a AL80; so, the steel 72 works great for me ... if you want to sale the 72 with the i-valve, I'd be interested ....
Wow! The Hydro Twin was a great regulator. I have a new one that's signed by Sam Lecocque, the founder of Sportsways. I know him well and he signed it for me at a Sea Hunt event. In fact, you can see that regulator on one of my Vintage Scuba videos coming soon. It's called 'Two Hose Regulators - the Good, Bad and Ugly'. Watch for it in a couple of weeks.
Hi Alec,
great video again. Very educational as usual. :)
I can't help but feel that my comment (and the comments following mine) on your previous tank tech tip video (S03E04) sparked this episode. I didn't mean to start a "DIN is better than INT" discussion to be honest. Back then I just wanted to add some information that I found useful. After all I am still a diving newbie and just finished my basic diver (CMAS) certification and I greatful for all the knowledge you and other experienced divers share with us.
From what I've seen here in Germany steel tanks seem to be a cheaper here and more available than aluminium tanks, but I totally understand that you are in the northern parts of America and that aluminium tanks are much more common there and everywhere else in the world.
Since you mentioned a followup further down in the comments: One thing I would include in a followup video is the yoke adapter that can be fit on DIN regulators to make them compatible with INT valves / tanks.
Anyway keep up the good work, and keep those tech tips comming, I am really enjoying them.
Cheers!
Side note: DIN is the abbreviation for Deutsches Institut für Normung which translates to German Standardization Institute, which basically is the German equivalent of ANSI (American National Standards Institute).
I meant the regular steel tanks, not the ones with the increases pressure capability. The regular pressure steel tanks seem to be cheaper around my area.
Haha, I'm sorry that I made you do the video, Alec. ;)
I just received my first own tank. It's a 10l / 300 bar (4350 psi) steel tank and damn ... screwing in that long thread on my DIN regulator is a bit of a hassle. I haven't used a yoke myself yet, but whenever I see you snap one of those on one of your tanks I am like ... "damn that's quick".
Now that I think about it: I read that ideal gas laws don't really apply anymore for the higher pressure tanks. I haven't looked to much into the maths yet, but as a rule of thumb with 300 bar / 4350 psi tanks you have to calculate in a correction factor of 0.9.
So a 105 cuft tank will only hold 95 cuft when pressurized to 4350 psi. Please correct me if I am wrong about this.
I think this is something you need to be aware of before you plan your dives.
Cheers,
oB
Alec, thanks for checking on DIN weight/length as I was toying with the idea of converting my Yoke regulator I just bought to DIN since the tanks I use locally are HP steel that get filled with DIN and then have to screw the adapter on. I though it would be lighter/more compact for travel - but apparently NOT! - rest of the world are more likely to use Yoke anyway so I'm sticking to that! Always learning something with your video re-watching them and reading comments.
Hi . how to choose between 200 bar and 300 bar . I m using a DIN valve and it is working at 300 bar . I m doing a lot of deep diving and I am thinking to buy a new tank (300 bar ) . or can you make another episode about this problem ?! Please ! Thank you for everything and for the Sea Hunt series . You ( and Kevin ) are making a fantastic job . Thank you verry much for everything .
Laurentiu Charec the 300 bar DIN valves have more threads. If you noticed when you screw your regulator into a "standard" (200 bar) DIN tank, some threads are still exposed. The 300 bar captures all of these to make it more resilient at high pressure and added security of the captured o-ring. An advantage of the 200 bar DIN valves is you can screw in a double o-ring insert to convert them to accommodate a yoke regulator. With a 300 bar valve you can't do that, too many threads, a yoke regulator won't seal unless you get a special kind I guess but I've never seen before. Given the option, a 200 bar DIN is adequate for most uses. The only 300 bar DIN valves I own are on my backmounted doubles, even my stage bottles are 200 bar.
I own 30 cylinders and 12 of them are steel "72s." In most cases 65 cubic feet is enough gas for a recreational divers, and properly cared for the 3AA low-pressure cylinders will far outlast aluminum cylinders. I would also put in a positive plug for hot dipped galvanized cylinders and am glad that Faber finally saw the light on that. I love diving with students (even much smaller people and easily out breathing them using my steel "72." Good video!
The steel 72 was my favorite tank by far, still is.
And you're quite right about galvanized tanks.
Alec
Don't be so sure on what you said in the beginning I started diving when i was 9 (2009) and i mostly use steel 72 hahahaahahahah yes I do use some 80s I admit that. But i also use a neoprene wetsuit from the late 80s and have big long dive knife (10in) from the 70s. Some of us haven't found the new way just yet
I loved the old steel 72s. But, they are gone or almost other than for vintage divers.
When I started diving in the late 50's, if you didn't have a 10"+ knife you weren't really a diver!
Take care. Alec
HI Alec! Thank you for the great videos. I have a question about steel vs Aluminum. Do you find the balance to be different? I feel like the steel wants to turn me over on my back. I only dive aluminum once, and i don't remember that feeling. (new diver in New Hampshire) Thanks!
You're right! There's a big buoyancy difference. Steel tanks are decidely negative while aluminum tanks are slghtly positive when empty and only slightly negative when full. So with an aluminum tank on your back and with weights as usual close to the front of your body and in the normal attitude for recreational divers (horizontal facing down) your balance is nearly perfect. Put on a steel tank and now your back wants to swap with your front - you roll.
Using a steel tank requires you to move the weights around until you find the rght positioning of them. Once that's done, and it can take a bit of time, you'll be fine again. Steel tanks are the choice among technical divers (cave divers and for wreck penetration or deep dives) who want less lead weight but a negative positioning. They tend to be close to the bottom, want minimum fin movement and more controlled buoyancy without excessive use of a BCD. None of these is as important to recreational divers so the use of steel tanks and their odd characteristics is avoided, unless you're just looking for more capacity. The aluminum 80 tank, universally the preferred tank worldwide, is so for a reason. It is a near perfect combination of capacity, weight, size and buoyancy for most divers. That didn't happen by chance. It was designed to be so. The first aluminum tanks (1975?) were different. They were 72 cubic feet, longer and smaller diameter - 6.75 " versus 7.25". We called them torpedo tanks. Not many exist today. I have a couple in my collection. They were made that way to compete with the old 72 cf steel tanks that reigned supreme for 40 years. They were even the same pressure (2400psi) as the old steel tanks. Tank manufacturers wanted divers to accept them as a good substitute for their old steel ones. As the aluminum tank became more accepted by divers, they changed the size and pressure to what we have today. Good luck with your tanks. Thanks for watching. Alec
Thank Alec! I enjoy your videos!
Thanks for watching Bruce. Alec
DIN looks a bit cleaner when assembled. But until carribean switch to those convertible valves i stick to yoke. I see too many Europeans struggle with tanks there.
And when you forced to use an adapter- I think i can hear every time they bump the head against the reg 🤣
A dented head is a drawback for them over here and the same for us anywhere else.
A
Note there is a difference in DIN valves in tanks also. 5 thread are use up to 3500PSI/232/bar, 7 thread for use with 300bar (4500 PSI) tanks. A 7 thread valve also has a deeper drilling inside the 'O' ring face. Most charging whips are 7 thread but those on a 300 bar compressor also have a small extension inside the 'O' face to stop them sealing onto and charging a lower pressure tank.
Similarly DV's rated at 3500 PSI max have only 5 threads so when attached to a 300Bar/4500PSI will not seal.
You are correct but this was a basic intro for those who need to know the differences. Your points are much appreciated.
7:02 I was expecting you say "Kevin" lmao, as always, very informative, thank you.
Thanks again for your time and commitment to making sure there’s plenty of good information. Just did my 1st 100 footer at Catalina. It was my 5th dive ever and absolutely amazing. Shark hanging out at 130. Now I’m gathering info on different equipment. Thinking about getting a 120 cause I’m still new and use a lot of air. #SignatureScuba is the club I joined and how I found your videos. We watched 1 at our last monthly meeting.
Well a steel 120 is a big tank if you want to shed lead from the BC. Glad to hear SignatureScuba show only the best videos!! I have lots they can show. I used to dive Catalina after each west coast DEMA show for many years. Say hi to SignatureScuba and compliment them on their excellent video picks. Thanks for watching Ryan.
Did you know the best way to keep your tank safe is the keep your tank when you're storing it at 200 PSI
That's new to me.
A
Alec thanks for the educational on tanks and yokes you seem like a layed back guy most people like you are wonderful instructors and the years of knowledge is priceless great video I just found you and will certainly be watching more thank you sir
I appreciate that!
Sir Alec,I've got one question.Seen a lot of ur videos and really appreciate...I just wanna know is it safe to dive with Carbon Fiber tanks?Seen people only talks about steel and alluminium🤔
Carbon fiber tanks are not that new, just improved over the last years. Primarily as staging, bailout or spare air bottles the major drawback of these are they are un-inspectable and easily damaged. Best to check with actual users on www.scubaboard.com to get their ideas.
carbon fiber tanks will only last 15 years and hold 4500 PSI, steel tanks last 50 years and go to normally 3000 or 3500 PSI. get a steel tank
I have been considering a 95 Low Pressure Steel tank against a 117 High Pressure. I like the size and weight of both. The size is almost identical in both. The 117 weighs 5.4lbs heavier, but the 95 is more of a floater when empty, so you need to wear more weights to compensate. Before jumping in the water the diver will be about 4 lbs heavier with the 117
I believe the capacity ratings for the low pressure tanks is based on their + rating. So after 5 years, the 95 tank becomes an 86.4 tank. The pressure is reduced by the 10% the + rating allows. To find how that effects volume, I took 95 / 2640 x 2400 = 86.363. Rated capacity divided by the pressure it is rated at, gives a volume measurement per psi, then multiplied by the new pressure rating. Is this correct? If you take 10% from 95 you get even less, 95 - 9.5 = 85.5
The high pressure tanks do not have a + rating, so their capacity stays the same. So after 5 years, the 117 holds 30.6 more cu' of air, is about the same size and only weighs 4 lb more. Am I over looking something?
If your not sure which to pick, your comment may have been cut off, ask the dive store to let your take them for a test dive. They may have a rental of each and see how they perform with your diving style. If a good dive shop, this should not be a problem. They want you to return for fills, VIS and hydro tests, club events, trips, etc. Take care.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunterThanks for the replies. I was wondering if my logic for calculating actual tank capacity was correct. ( rated capacity divided by rated pressure multiplied by the actual pressure).
I did buy the 117 from a local shop yesterday. (3rd Reef in Las Vegas. Real nice guy by the way). It weighs a bit more than aluminum 80, but holds 50% more air. 117-77 = 40.
The aluminum 100 weighs 42lb. About the same as a steel 133. And it is 2lb buoyant, so may need extra weights.
Alec I’m so glad I stumbled across you channel. I’ve learned so much from you. I will be purchasing my own tanks soon and would like to know what size do you recommend. I know the aluminum 80 is the standard, but if I dive with Nitrox wouldn’t a steel 133 be better? What are the pros and cons to larger tank sizes? Thank you for the expert advice in advance.
For regular diving, that is, not extreme deep, cave or wreck penetration, the aluminum 80 is still the best bet, even for Nitrox. It's cheaper, easier to maintain and perfectly balanced for recreational diving.
Using Nitrox does not affect the tank choice. In all likelihood a Nitrox dive is shallower and maybe even shorter than an air dive. The idea that you need a 'big, high pressure' tank for Nitrox is another of those mistaken attitudes from technical diving that have permeated the recreational diving world.
Get an 80 and go have fun. Take a Nitrox course and then you can decide if it's for you and if you want to get a different tank.
Good luck.
Alec
I usually use a steel 117 but use aluminum 80's sometimes. You didn't mention the superior buoyancy characteristics of steel tanks.
Well superior buoyancy is in the eye of each diver. Some like a heaver tank (steel) with less lead, others like aluminum with more lead but better weight distribution for trimming. If your happy with your setup, perfect, not trying to change anyone just educate and entertain. Appreciate the feedback sir.
In France the standard is steel tanks, because we can inflate them to 232 bar or even 300 bar (an S80 11.1 liters only accepts 207 Bar). I saw on their website that Luxfer makers 12.2 liter cylinders that accept 232 bar, and I'm eager to find one because my steel cylinders have rusted inside due to poor quality fill stations... For the US, the lesser 200 bar pressure is fine because you don't go deeper than 30 meters, but here in France I'm regularly doing 40 to 60 meter dives. An S80 won't do it for those deep dives, or I'll have to get two (twin or sidemount). I really don't know what to do since getting an aluminium tank bigger than an S80 is almost impossible here and fill stations will destroy your steel tanks. I might have to buy a compressor... Forget savings!
Lot of options to pick from. I have a tech tip video on portable air compressors S09E01, so watch to see what is involved in owning a compressor before investing.
Alec
I just bought a scuba compressor ...se add led packaged filters Came with it but they are about 13 years old... I ordered new ones but I’m tempted to to fill and try out my new compressor using the ones that came with it... is this a high risk?
Breathing air must be clean and pure and the only way to be sure, regardless of manufacturer claims, is to have a sample sent off for testing. Don't risk a problem by skipping this test for yourself and anyone you fill. Most compressors need maintenance (annual and by # of hours) for proper operation. After 13 years be suspect until tested.
Never mind the extra pressure available, probably you are not going to need that. However, there are other reasons the DIN excels over yoke the main one being that you are most unlikely to have an O-ring problem, actually, I’ve yet to see anyone have a problem.
The O-Ring on a DIN fitting is located on the regulator, not the tank valve.
That fact alone saves the O-Ring from some of the abuse that a regular (yoke-style) valve & O-Ring go through.
However, the O-Ring on a DIN must still be inspected and replaced regularly.
And it ought to be protected with a DIN cap while not in use.
I HAVE seen them fail and fall out.
If a yoke valve O-Ring is inspected and replaced regularly (all of $1.00!) and one uses a valve cap for protection, the yoke-style O-Ring is just as reliable. It's also less expensive and it's quicker and easier to mount.
A lot of my viewers are from the UK or Europe where the DIN is standard and lots of my viewers are into tech diving where the DIN is more popular but please don't sell the yoke short. It's been giving great service to divers for a heck of a long time and there's no sign of it disappearing.
Thanks for watching.
Alec
As always, super-great. Thanks a million, Karl.
fire extinguishers aren't always red...just sayin
I know. Sad though. Who ever heard of a yellow fire truck. My youth is shattered!
Thanks for watching.
Alec
That is a bit sad but there are white fire extinguisher bottles too. I hope that doesn’t have a negative impact on any part of your life lol. Nice video btw