I would have gotten more out of this demo if the pianist had played (as close as is possible) exactly the same thing for all setups, and they were then played back back-to-back, with only brief pauses (and no talking or other music) between them. In other words: describe all the setups first, describe the plusses and minuses of each setup, then play the recordings A, B, C in quick succession. As it was, the differences due to differences in mic setup were dwarfed by differences in what she was playing, and there was so much talking (and the sound of another piano!) in between that I couldn't remember what the previous example sounded like.
The Blumlein technique was named after Alan Blumlein who is regarded as the "Father of Stereo" He was one of the greatest scientists of the 20th Century and few people outside the sound industry have even heard of him.
This demonstration is adequate for general listening purposes, but it doesn't use the most accurate mic placement and recording technique to capture the full-range stereo sound of the piano. (CLICK BELOW on "Read more") for information on Making Professional Cost-Effective Accurate Piano Recordings: MOST ACCURATE MIC TECHNIQUE FOR PIANO The most accurate and robust mic technique to record piano in it's full range of sound within it's stereo nature (piano being the only stereo musical instrument) is to place at least 2 mics (3 is preferred) 12 inches above the hammers across the entire piano scale, One on the left side of the piano, one in the middle and one on the right side of the piano. TWO MICS MINIMUM, THREE IS PREFERRED If using 2 mics, place one above the far left bass hammers, and the other above the far right treble strings. If using 3 mics, place one above the far left hammers, one in the center of the hammers, and the third above the far right hammers. Placement above the hammers insures that you can capture the nuance of any hammer actually striking the strings at different dynamic playing modes...i.e. soft notes, medium sounds and loud hammer strikes on the strings. TEST RECORDINGS AND SOUND CHECKS Be sure to do test recordings at all three piano playing volumes: soft, medium and loud before you do a real recording take. You must keep your mic gain under the "clipping" level, so there is no distortion, particularly on loud playing passages. Work with a pianist or helper before making a recording to do some sound level tests on soft, medium and loud playing. If there is no pianist available, you can do it yourself. Turn your recorder on and set your mic input gain levels in a medium position. Go to the piano and using as many fingers as possible, strike the bass, middle, and treble strings softly, then at medium volume and then at loud volume. It doesn't matter what notes you play. All you have to do is to strike the strings, then listen to your playback. If the loud strikes are "clipping" (distorting) then you need to lower your mic gain input levels until there is no more clipping. If the music you intend to record has some very loud passages, be aware as it may be necessary to turn down your mic input levels during loud strikes or passages to avoid distortion. YOU NEED MULTI TRACKS This mic placement accurately captures the piano's complete "stereo" sounds, recording low notes on the left mic, middle notes on the center mic and high notes on the right mic. Again, if you have only 2 mics, place one on the right side of the piano and one on the left side. 3 mics are best, but 2 will still work. You need a dedicated recording track for each microphone, and during playback when mixing for a master recording, you should pan your left mic to the farthest left setting, your middle mic dead center, and your right mic to its farthest right setting. (just what the pianist hears when sitting on the piano bench as he/she plays) ADDING REVERB TO PIANO TRACKS: Once you have recorded your piano tracks, you will need to add a bit of reverb on each track to give depth. Experiment with this. Too little reverb will make the piano sound flat, dead and close, as if recorded in a closet. Too much reverb will make the piano sound echoic, noisy and muddy, as if recorded in a canyon. Neither extreme is good. Add only enough reverb to give depth to the piano sound, without the reverb becoming noticeable. Better too little than too much. TRACK POSITIONING AND PLACEMENT: It is important to position your playback tracks in the same way that you recorded your microphone input tracks. If you use two mics, then pan your left track all the way to the left upon playback. Pan your right track all the way to the right. If using three mics, then pan your left track all the way to the left, your middle track dead center, and your right track all the way to the right. Remember to keep your playback tracks identical to the microphone input tracks on which they were recorded. i.e., your right track should be the right track upon which you recorded your right side mic. Your left track should be the same track that you recorded your left side mic, and so on. PIANO MONAURAL SOUND VS. PIANO FULL-RANGE STEREO SOUND This technique insures that your mics and your recording will allow you to accurately hear and capture exactly what the pianist hears when he or she is playing the instrument. Ironically, in live performances, the audience does not hear the same sound that the pianist hears when playing the piano, because the audience sits perpendicular (at 90 degrees) to the keyboard and the hammers. The audience hears a mix of lows, mids and highs with no separation. The pianist, on the other hand, hears lows on the left, mids in the middle and highs on the right, because the pianist sits facing the keys and the hammers. Your mics should also be positioned the same, to capture the full stereo sound. Mics positioned on the right side of the piano only, hear a monaural sound. Mics positioned as outlined in this tutorial hear the true full stereo sound of the piano....just as the pianist hears it, and as your recording will play it. SUMMARY: Correct mic placement and multi-track panning technique as outlined above will give you accurate, full-range true stereo piano recordings. It is important to experiment with your mic placements, your volume levels in setting your microphone input levels, the loudness or softness of how the pianist plays, and what the music (the written musical composition) may be demanding of your equipment. Experimentation, practicing and rehearsal during sound checks is as important as the musician practicing the music. If you do adequate sound checking ahead of time, your recordings will come out clear and listenable.
Thank you for very clear and quite enlightening points! I am just thinking, is the pianist playing for himself or for the audience? I assume that the pianist must take the audience and the room or the venue into the equation. If the venue is big the pianist has to adapt his technique so that the notes will "travel" all the way to the people sitting far back. The pianist will also adapt his approach depending on the instrument he is playing at that particular moment. The pianist is playing for a audience and not for himself. If I am recording the event, should I try to capture the sound created and intended for the audience or should I try to capture the "true" stereo sound the the pianist can hear himself, privately alone, due to his seating position by the piano?
To: finnurth From: jennifer86010 You bring up some valid and interesting points. (CLICK ON "Read more") for information on my experience with your topics. LIVE EVENTS VS. RECORDINGS: Keep in mind that live performances are all about expressing and sharing emotion and energy between the composer, the musician and the audience, contained in a space with everyone's attention focused on the event and process. Recordings are about a single listener who listens to the music being reproduced by a device, while he/she is often not focused on the music as it plays in the background while the listener is driving a car or doing other things at home. STUDIO RECORDINGS VS. LIVE CONCERT RECORDINGS: In terms of making recordings, it is best for an engineer to capture the music in the best possible way that portrays the sound of the music, not necessarily the composition, the musicians, the hall, or the audience. Studio recordings are always best, because studio engineers eliminate all unwanted sounds, and capture the best possible sounds of the instrument...pianos being tuned within one hour before recording starts. Additionally, if the recording artist and/or producers think that they made a mediocre "take" they can re-take as many times until they feel they have done their best. Studio recordings are a series of takes, adjustments, polishing and editing to create the best possible sound the music and instruments can make for the single listener who puts on a C.D. or music file at home or in the car. Live recordings are a totally different story. The piano is usually not tuned well, the acoustics of the hall or room are usually bad for microphones, there are many unwanted noises and sounds, and there are no re-takes...one chance is all you get. The advantage of live recordings is the illusion of the single listener at home, that he/she is actually at the live performance, and perhaps gets to experience a piece of musical history within this live event. Usually the recording quality is not very good, but often the energy exchange between the performers and the audience is worth the trade off MIC PLACEMENT/RECORDING TECHNIQUES FOR LIVE EVENT RECORDINGS: Engineers use the same techniques in live recordings as they do in studio recordings. The object is to come as close to a studio recording as possible, at live venues, despite unwanted sounds and noises, and despite the bad acoustics and problems with instruments. PIANO CONDITION- COSTS AND EXPENSES - LIVE CONCERT COSTS; If the pianist is signed with a major record label or is famous, the chances are likely that he/she will have the backing to afford bringing in a piano of his/her choosing. Concert grand pianos cost $100,000.00 - $250,000,000.00. They are very expensive. Renting a concert grand piano can cost as much as several thousand dollars, depending on the piano and the circumstances of the event. Concerts are expensive to attend, but somebody has to pay for the hall, the staff, the equipment, the promotions, the musicians...and the list goes on and on. So, your ticket price has to pay for many expensive things and for many people's work and talents. At large events, the piano will be tuned 1 hour prior to the performance, regardless if the performance is recorded or not. Piano tuners will charge $200.00 for a tuning, and if they stay on standby during the performance, will charge as much as $500.00 if they have to re-touch the tuning during intermission. For pianists who are not famous or have such financial support, they will have to play and deal with what ever piano is available, in what ever condition and tuning it is in. Those are the unfortunate facts of musical life. This is why I have suggested that non-famous pianists who play at a semi-professional level learn something about "touch-up piano tuning". Often if a pianist carries his/her own tuning hammer and a couple of string mutes, he/she can touch up any sour strings on the piano before a recording or performance. RECORDING SUCCESS DEPENDS TOTALLY UPON THE PIANO SOUND; Your recording is totally dependent upon the tuning of the piano. If the piano is out of tune...badly, your recording will sound horrible. Almost every piano recording we have ever heard has been made on pianos which have been tuned just prior to the recording. If you are a pianist or a recording engineer who intends to make a piano recording, you MUST insist that those involved in the concert or recording, find the money to tune the piano just before the recording is made. Otherwise, it will sound cheap, twangy, sour and laughable. Piano tuners can charge as little as $50 for a touch-up tuning and often charge $100. Discuss this issue with the venue people, the pianist, any sponsors and others involved with the recording project weeks before the actual recording is made, in order to insure that the piano will be in reasonably GOOD TUNE at the time of the recording. This is a critical make-or-break issue as far as the quality of the piano recording is concerned. Piano tuning is paramount for both studio and live event recordings. SOUND WITHIN THE VENUES; INDOOR VS. OUTDOOR Musicians are not concerned with filling the space with sound, since in most cases the room size is not a factor, no matter how large the indoor hall is. Indoor music is not like the human voice which needs amplification to be heard in the last row. The softest musical sounds can be heard in the last rows, since the audience is being quiet and the space is contained. In outdoor venues, it is an entirely different story, and sound reinforcement (microphones, amplifiers and speakers) are needed, because the sound evaporates quickly and unwanted sounds are everywhere. PIANIST PLAYS FOR WHOM? In most cases, the pianist is not playing for him/her self...anymore than a doctor would practice medicine for himself, or an attorney would would go to a courtroom when there is no trial. Pianists, if professional, play for the audience, because the audience is who puts food on the musician's table. The pianists and musicians also play for the composer, since in composed music the composer has already put forth instructions on how a particular work must be played...with some interpretation allowed. Pianists play for themselves usually when they are alone and want to experiment with some music they love or might eventually play. Rarely do professional pianists play piano for personal enjoyment, because they see playing music as a profession, not as entertainment or pleasure. Rarely do professional athletes play ball for fun. Since musicians have to play music for a living, and practice many hours per week, they relate to making music as work, and consequently find other things in life which bring pleasure. RECORDING LIVE EVENTS For piano, always place your mics as outlined in the tutorial, to capture the full stereo sound, just as the pianist hears it. The audience, the venue, the hall and everything else will take care of themselves. Your job as a recording engineer is to capture the best possible sound of the piano for the single listener at home who buys the recording. APPLAUSE AND UNWANTED ANNOUNCEMENTS ON LIVE RECORDINGS: On live recordings, audience applause is natural. It is often "sweetened" or added to in post recording production to create more excitement. In classical concerts, it is expected and predictable, and it needs to be recorded along with the music. However in casual venues....clubs, restaurants, smaller halls and pop-music events, there is often speaking, announcing, and unpredictable talking going on as each tune or movement of the music starts or finishes. This is a very tricky thing to try to separate unwanted talking, and it is important that the recording engineer rehearses with any announcers before the event to make sure there is little-to-no bleed over from announcing into or out of each recorded track. I hope these points address your questions. As a recording artist and engineer I have dealt with these issues for many years. I wish you luck in your musical adventures !
As a pro pianist and aspiring - eevn university trained, but no pro - recording engineer and piano tech, it's PIANO 101 to understand how critical the room sound is, part and parcel of the total piano sound. There is no "best technique" as there is no best piano, though I prefer Steinway overall. It depends on the room and the instrument and probably the genre and player as well. Some would tell you the lid should be taken off. It is okay for the concert hall but those reflections are not really great for recording. Anyway, this fixation on the hammers is mostly misguided, unless one is going for a certain sound or focus. I hate the way this video - from an admired institution - is sounding and presented. Very unnatural and hyped in the overall effect. Sounds very compressed. I think sound recordings, especially of acoustic instruments and voices, was well dialed in by the fifties, and that was all about great mics and great instruments and great ROOMS. Capital Records, Studio A, for example. You just don't get better than that. As of late, engineers are just too focused on gear. For some genres, that may be fine, here, this is sucky, just my educated, well traveled, well exposed opinion, still quite humble, as you can tell.
Spaced pair with the AKG C414XLII was mind blowing. However, I noticed that Harman recommend the C414XLS for grand piano recordings. But man, who cares what they recommend when they sound like that. Both the other methods had some noticable damper bleed, which I didn't hear on the spaced pair.
So which is the best on a budget? You should make a video about how to put sound together if you haven't already. I still don't fully understand how to use mics.
Behringer C-2 is also a good option for an external mics. You can even use them with the above mentioned Zoom H4n (it supports phantom power, as far as I can see). Why use external mics? Because with built-in mics you are limited to XY pattern, which is not that great when you want to record some distant source, e.g. classical ensemble (recorded on XY it will sound almost mono). With external microphones you can set up ORTF or DIN and get almost-like-a-pro result. To me, the only drawback of C-2's is somewhat higher noise level, but for their price this can be forgiven. To give you an idea of it, I can say that it is audible (on a record, of course) in a total silence, but is completely masked by a noise of a concert hall full of people just before the start of a performance, which can be considered very quiet. Of course, any instrument is so much louder that practically this is not an issue at all.
AB (25-35cm apart) near the piano tail about 1-1.5m above the floor and 1-1.5m away from the piano for classic (Nathan Shirley, CLASSICAL PIANO RECORDING), or XY at the front of the piano at the middle of the “rounded” part, 30cm above the edge of the case and 30cm away for jazz/pop. In both cases central line between mics is pointing to the lowest A0 bass damper. I am using cardioid microphones instead of omni due to the noisy environment.
Wow! I've had Rebekah as one of my instructors in the online degree program. I knew she could play piano, but I had never heard her play until now and have not even seen her until now. What a great pianist she is and rather beautiful as a woman as well. Way to go Rebekah!
Thanks for this video. I tried Blumlein with two AKG C3000 (old, bi-directional version) and recorded a Förster Grand in a school concert. Even with these budget microphones I got very sweet sounding, clear and natural recordings. Amazing!
The capsules are at a 90-degree angle to each other for stereo separation, not to reduce the amount of phase issues. Reducing phase issues is why the capsules are immediately next to each other.
Wonder how the stereo left to right should be. In your video, Low is on Left, and High on the Right. It is correct from the player's point of view. From the audience, I felt Low should on the Right, and High on the Left. Is it just an artistic point of view or there is a rule?
could you just use two cheap, regular microphones? Like for example, could you use two of those small clip-on microphones that news reporters always wear?
Does "Spaced Pair" require special microphones, or can I use the same kind of microphones that was used for the XY-recording? I ask, because the I have access to such microphones used in the XY, but I think the audio is better in the spaced-pair: Picks up a better bass, and gives a richer sound.
Great video and thanks for sharing. I've tried these configurations and more and, without fail, I end up with a muddy woofy recording. I'm playing on a 5'4" yamaha grand inside a room about the size of a large loungeroom with a 9' ceiling. The lid is fully raised and I'm using two Rode condensor cardio mics. Mixing is through Logic Pro x. Is there anything obviously wrong in my settings that you can think of? Thanks in advance. Any help is appreciated.
Maybe it depends on the Jazz style. I wonder if you would use XY for traditional jazz and Spaced Pair for for Bublé style jazz. Sounds like your situation is for traditional jazz?
+Stina Fagerberg thank you for that. Great video. By the way, for home recordings, are there any other resources for recommended equipment for grand pianos? I'd love to study this in college.
I prefer to use cardioid large diaphragm studio condenser mics on tall stands, positioned left and right of the piano's hammer line. This way, a more natural balance of the sound is captured and it sounds more like an acoustic than a MIDI sampled piano. A slight bit of hall ambience is gained with this method, too.
This is a weird video because the listener will be wondering ""am I comparing the mic brands or the mics patterns (card or omni) or mic positioning?" The ideal comparison will be using the same mics for all the different positions. I hope you didn't use differ preamps for all positions or that will be an additional worry to think about. And in addition to that you need to worry what the listeners are using to compare these takes...are they using laptop speakers or ipod earphone or professional monitoring headphones or ??? So doing comparison this way can be difficult.
The pencil condensers are more commonly used for the XY pattern. The AKG 414s used in the other techniques are capable of different polar patterns, like the figure of 8 for the blumlein technique. Basically, different mics are better for different things, which I think is why they used different ones :)
Does anyone know where I can get the microphones and microphone stand/setup shown in the xy techique 0:38 or what brand someone who knows what they're taking about recommends?
spaced pair sounds the best by itself, but XY position is important when you want to mix the piano into a song and use it as an ornament(not a base). I...really have no idea what use there is for that "bloom line" position, though :/
Ever tried a Beta 91a in a live setting? Also, what would you recommend to get rid of the sound of the pads? Or maybe it was actually the sound of her foot being transferred through the mic stand? Would you recommend a low cut to take care of that?
My current options for xy are two AKG C1000s, and a Zoom H4 field recorder with built in stereo XY condenser mics. The AKG C1000's are possibly the most hated mics ever according to review forums, and the Zoom only records to its own internal memory card. I don't think I can bypass the memory card and just use the mics wired to the recorder of my choice. I may have to spend money.
I've seen a lot of comments about: how much a mic like that etc etc... If you are new to this then i think its the best to achive a cheap one and experiment with it. The fact youre owning a very high end microfon doesnt make ur mix sound awesome ;) Try to experiment and try to gain as much as experience you can get :P
Grotrian Steinweg I don’t know that it’s a 6 (could be 7?), but it’s certainly C and not CX. You can tell by the shape the sides/fins on either end of the keyboard.
Spaced pair is my preference. The other two methods have some level of phase canceling to enhance the stereo. If it doesn't sound cohesive enough bring the pairs closer. A center mic in addition is sometimes helpful also.
The XY is the most accurate, as the player hears the piano from this perspective. The Blumlein is nice, but I have never had the possibility of playing piano with my ears near the right back of the piano! Placing the XY mics closer to the performer is even better. Realism is always safer for phase and engages the player in their own recording playback. Chris Huston discovered this XY for drums as well, in the 70s. Always pursue the performers perspective, not from a scientists.
The only problem with using the performers perspective is if you're miking and entire band, and you want to use the audience members perspective. There should also be a single mic technique for engineers who want to mix piano as a mono source amongst other instruments.
A pair of XYs over the hammers, then closing the lid with the short stick, covering with a few sound blankets is still the best way to mic a piano! Even mono, as the phase is still intact, and the piano still sounds like a piano!
Robt Perkins The technique you describe works very well in some situations, but there is no ONE best way to mic a piano. For instance, I would NEVER record classical music that way. The microphone is an electronic ear, and no one listens to a performance of piano music with their head over the hammers and a blanket on top of them. The instrument was designed to use the lid to diffuse the sound out into a room or concert hall. That's why something like the Blumlein technique and positioning works well for classical (as does mid-side from that position). Conversely, I would definitely place mics closer to the hammers and make use of blankets when needing punchy, clear tracks for pop or country music.
Well, if you are listening with Phase coherent speakers, to an XY piano recording, it will sound like a real piano in your room. If you therefore wish to simulate a concert hall, I suggest you set up a surround system and a great reverb processor, rather than compromise the recording of the piano by mics from the back. Again, no performer sticks his head in the back to hear the beauty of the instrument. Plus, no average audience member notices the diff between any of these techniques. Only a performer really cares how the piano sounds. If you wish to record a concert hall, use XY above the stage, as the conductor hears it. Add real hall reverb. Never put mics over the back of a piano! The lid reflects into the room, so record the room, not the contorted sound that the 'electronic ear' hears from the back of the piano. And blankets? There are for sleeping! Buy a Kurzweil Forte for anything else and run it thru a PA. Music is created by performers, to be enjoyed by the listener, without scientific engineers coming up with strange places to put a pair of ears. Keep it natural.
Robt Perkins Robt - can't say I fully agree. At least not listening to this demo. Each technique has its pros and cons. I listened to the demo on my large speakers that are about 13ft apart. All the samples are nice, but for me: X-Y: Sounds dry clean and narrow. I do agree that it's the pianist's perspective. Spaced pair: Makes the piano 13ft wide. Sounds cool and very rich, but overblown. Blumlein: Width is in-between X-Y and spaced. Most natural to me, but does tend to pull highs and lows in opposite directions - thu not as much as spaced. Maybe Blumlein with cardioid instead of figure 8 would sound more natural?
Nice work, but, this is the second piano mic'ing video I've watched tonight where the selection of music didn't cover the range of the keyboard. So we never truly heard the full stereo extent and it's tough to judge your technique or attention to detail, which in recording is about all there is, no?
It doesn't look like you followed the 3:1 rule on your spaced pair; they were too far from the sound source. Though on a short piano like that it's hard to tell any phase problems from other problems that piano had.
Am I the only one that hears like a 'bass drum' each time the pianist uses the pedal? I hear it the most in the first example, although it's hard to tell since each sample is a different piece...
I suspect it doesn't matter what she plays. It will different for every piano and microphone set up anyway. I thought there was only one way but according to Google there are at least 13. I assume few people would have microphones of this quality.
This introduction is good. But this is too short too brief. Say, which types of microphone should be used? Dynamic or Condensed Microphone. I think the recording technique for the piano should be a series of video.
Sound samples: XY = 0:44 - Spaced Pair = 1:20 - Blumlein = 1:54
I would have gotten more out of this demo if the pianist had played (as close as is possible) exactly the same thing for all setups, and they were then played back back-to-back, with only brief pauses (and no talking or other music) between them. In other words: describe all the setups first, describe the plusses and minuses of each setup, then play the recordings A, B, C in quick succession. As it was, the differences due to differences in mic setup were dwarfed by differences in what she was playing, and there was so much talking (and the sound of another piano!) in between that I couldn't remember what the previous example sounded like.
oo hi smalin :)
+100
It would have been nice to hear the full range of the piano for each example.
She played different pieces for each miking scenario. I wish she had played the same
Alx Andrue I was thinking the same. When people show differences, they have to use similar examples. A lot of people fail to understand this.
The Blumlein technique was named after Alan Blumlein who is regarded as the "Father of Stereo" He was one of the greatest scientists of the 20th Century and few people outside the sound industry have even heard of him.
This demonstration is adequate for general listening purposes, but it doesn't use the most accurate mic placement and recording technique to capture the full-range stereo sound of the piano.
(CLICK BELOW on "Read more") for information on Making Professional Cost-Effective Accurate Piano Recordings:
MOST ACCURATE MIC TECHNIQUE FOR PIANO
The most accurate and robust mic technique to record piano in it's full range of sound within it's stereo nature (piano being the only stereo musical instrument) is to place at least 2 mics (3 is preferred) 12 inches above the hammers across the entire piano scale, One on the left side of the piano, one in the middle and one on the right side of the piano.
TWO MICS MINIMUM, THREE IS PREFERRED
If using 2 mics, place one above the far left bass hammers, and the other above the far right treble strings. If using 3 mics, place one above the far left hammers, one in the center of the hammers, and the third above the far right hammers. Placement above the hammers insures that you can capture the nuance of any hammer actually striking the strings at different dynamic playing modes...i.e. soft notes, medium sounds and loud hammer strikes on the strings.
TEST RECORDINGS AND SOUND CHECKS
Be sure to do test recordings at all three piano playing volumes: soft, medium and loud before you do a real recording take. You must keep your mic gain under the "clipping" level, so there is no distortion, particularly on loud playing passages.
Work with a pianist or helper before making a recording to do some sound level tests on soft, medium and loud playing. If there is no pianist available, you can do it yourself. Turn your recorder on and set your mic input gain levels in a medium position. Go to the piano and using as many fingers as possible, strike the bass, middle, and treble strings softly, then at medium volume and then at loud volume. It doesn't matter what notes you play. All you have to do is to strike the strings, then listen to your playback. If the loud strikes are "clipping" (distorting) then you need to lower your mic gain input levels until there is no more clipping. If the music you intend to record has some very loud passages, be aware as it may be necessary to turn down your mic input levels during loud strikes or passages to avoid distortion.
YOU NEED MULTI TRACKS
This mic placement accurately captures the piano's complete "stereo" sounds, recording low notes on the left mic, middle notes on the center mic and high notes on the right mic. Again, if you have only 2 mics, place one on the right side of the piano and one on the left side. 3 mics are best, but 2 will still work. You need a dedicated recording track for each microphone, and during playback when mixing for a master recording, you should pan your left mic to the farthest left setting, your middle mic dead center, and your right mic to its farthest right setting. (just what the pianist hears when sitting on the piano bench as he/she plays)
ADDING REVERB TO PIANO TRACKS:
Once you have recorded your piano tracks, you will need to add a bit of reverb on each track to give depth. Experiment with this. Too little reverb will make the piano sound flat, dead and close, as if recorded in a closet. Too much reverb will make the piano sound echoic, noisy and muddy, as if recorded in a canyon. Neither extreme is good. Add only enough reverb to give depth to the piano sound, without the reverb becoming noticeable. Better too little than too much.
TRACK POSITIONING AND PLACEMENT:
It is important to position your playback tracks in the same way that you recorded your microphone input tracks. If you use two mics, then pan your left track all the way to the left upon playback. Pan your right track all the way to the right. If using three mics, then pan your left track all the way to the left, your middle track dead center, and your right track all the way to the right. Remember to keep your playback tracks identical to the microphone input tracks on which they were recorded. i.e., your right track should be the right track upon which you recorded your right side mic. Your left track should be the same track that you recorded your left side mic, and so on.
PIANO MONAURAL SOUND VS. PIANO FULL-RANGE STEREO SOUND
This technique insures that your mics and your recording will allow you to accurately hear and capture exactly what the pianist hears when he or she is playing the instrument. Ironically, in live performances, the audience does not hear the same sound that the pianist hears when playing the piano, because the audience sits perpendicular (at 90 degrees) to the keyboard and the hammers. The audience hears a mix of lows, mids and highs with no separation.
The pianist, on the other hand, hears lows on the left, mids in the middle and highs on the right, because the pianist sits facing the keys and the hammers. Your mics should also be positioned the same, to capture the full stereo sound. Mics positioned on the right side of the piano only, hear a monaural sound. Mics positioned as outlined in this tutorial hear the true full stereo sound of the piano....just as the pianist hears it, and as your recording will play it.
SUMMARY:
Correct mic placement and multi-track panning technique as outlined above will give you accurate, full-range true stereo piano recordings. It is important to experiment with your mic placements, your volume levels in setting your microphone input levels, the loudness or softness of how the pianist plays, and what the music (the written musical composition) may be demanding of your equipment.
Experimentation, practicing and rehearsal during sound checks is as important as the musician practicing the music. If you do adequate sound checking ahead of time, your recordings will come out clear and listenable.
Thank you for very clear and quite enlightening points! I am just thinking, is the pianist playing for himself or for the audience? I assume that the pianist must take the audience and the room or the venue into the equation. If the venue is big the pianist has to adapt his technique so that the notes will "travel" all the way to the people sitting far back. The pianist will also adapt his approach depending on the instrument he is playing at that particular moment. The pianist is playing for a audience and not for himself. If I am recording the event, should I try to capture the sound created and intended for the audience or should I try to capture the "true" stereo sound the the pianist can hear himself, privately alone, due to his seating position by the piano?
To: finnurth From: jennifer86010 You bring up some valid and interesting points. (CLICK ON "Read more") for information on my experience with your topics.
LIVE EVENTS VS. RECORDINGS:
Keep in mind that live performances are all about expressing and sharing emotion and energy between the composer, the musician and the audience, contained in a space with everyone's attention focused on the event and process.
Recordings are about a single listener who listens to the music being reproduced by a device, while he/she is often not focused on the music as it plays in the background while the listener is driving a car or doing other things at home.
STUDIO RECORDINGS VS. LIVE CONCERT RECORDINGS:
In terms of making recordings, it is best for an engineer to capture the music in the best possible way that portrays the sound of the music, not necessarily the composition, the musicians, the hall, or the audience.
Studio recordings are always best, because studio engineers eliminate all unwanted sounds, and capture the best possible sounds of the instrument...pianos being tuned within one hour before recording starts. Additionally, if the recording artist and/or producers think that they made a mediocre "take" they can re-take as many times until they feel they have done their best. Studio recordings are a series of takes, adjustments, polishing and editing to create the best possible sound the music and instruments can make for the single listener who puts on a C.D. or music file at home or in the car.
Live recordings are a totally different story. The piano is usually not tuned well, the acoustics of the hall or room are usually bad for microphones, there are many unwanted noises and sounds, and there are no re-takes...one chance is all you get. The advantage of live recordings is the illusion of the single listener at home, that he/she is actually at the live performance, and perhaps gets to experience a piece of musical history within this live event. Usually the recording quality is not very good, but often the energy exchange between the performers and the audience is worth the trade off
MIC PLACEMENT/RECORDING TECHNIQUES FOR LIVE EVENT RECORDINGS:
Engineers use the same techniques in live recordings as they do in studio recordings. The object is to come as close to a studio recording as possible, at live venues, despite unwanted sounds and noises, and despite the bad acoustics and problems with instruments.
PIANO CONDITION- COSTS AND EXPENSES - LIVE CONCERT COSTS;
If the pianist is signed with a major record label or is famous, the chances are likely that he/she will have the backing to afford bringing in a piano of his/her choosing.
Concert grand pianos cost $100,000.00 - $250,000,000.00. They are very expensive. Renting a concert grand piano can cost as much as several thousand dollars, depending on the piano and the circumstances of the event. Concerts are expensive to attend, but somebody has to pay for the hall, the staff, the equipment, the promotions, the musicians...and the list goes on and on. So, your ticket price has to pay for many expensive things and for many people's work and talents.
At large events, the piano will be tuned 1 hour prior to the performance, regardless if the performance is recorded or not. Piano tuners will charge $200.00 for a tuning, and if they stay on standby during the performance, will charge as much as $500.00 if they have to re-touch the tuning during intermission.
For pianists who are not famous or have such financial support, they will have to play and deal with what ever piano is available, in what ever condition and tuning it is in. Those are the unfortunate facts of musical life. This is why I have suggested that non-famous pianists who play at a semi-professional level learn something about "touch-up piano tuning". Often if a pianist carries his/her own tuning hammer and a couple of string mutes, he/she can touch up any sour strings on the piano before a recording or performance.
RECORDING SUCCESS DEPENDS TOTALLY UPON THE PIANO SOUND;
Your recording is totally dependent upon the tuning of the piano. If the piano is out of tune...badly, your recording will sound horrible. Almost every piano recording we have ever heard has been made on pianos which have been tuned just prior to the recording.
If you are a pianist or a recording engineer who intends to make a piano recording, you MUST insist that those involved in the concert or recording, find the money to tune the piano just before the recording is made. Otherwise, it will sound cheap, twangy, sour and laughable.
Piano tuners can charge as little as $50 for a touch-up tuning and often charge $100. Discuss this issue with the venue people, the pianist, any sponsors and others involved with the recording project weeks before the actual recording is made, in order to insure that the piano will be in reasonably GOOD TUNE at the time of the recording. This is a critical make-or-break issue as far as the quality of the piano recording is concerned. Piano tuning is paramount for both studio and live event recordings.
SOUND WITHIN THE VENUES; INDOOR VS. OUTDOOR
Musicians are not concerned with filling the space with sound, since in most cases the room size is not a factor, no matter how large the indoor hall is. Indoor music is not like the human voice which needs amplification to be heard in the last row. The softest musical sounds can be heard in the last rows, since the audience is being quiet and the space is contained. In outdoor venues, it is an entirely different story, and sound reinforcement (microphones, amplifiers and speakers) are needed, because the sound evaporates quickly and unwanted sounds are everywhere.
PIANIST PLAYS FOR WHOM?
In most cases, the pianist is not playing for him/her self...anymore than a doctor would practice medicine for himself, or an attorney would would go to a courtroom when there is no trial. Pianists, if professional, play for the audience, because the audience is who puts food on the musician's table.
The pianists and musicians also play for the composer, since in composed music the composer has already put forth instructions on how a particular work must be played...with some interpretation allowed. Pianists play for themselves usually when they are alone and want to experiment with some music they love or might eventually play. Rarely do professional pianists play piano for personal enjoyment, because they see playing music as a profession, not as entertainment or pleasure. Rarely do professional athletes play ball for fun. Since musicians have to play music for a living, and practice many hours per week, they relate to making music as work, and consequently find other things in life which bring pleasure.
RECORDING LIVE EVENTS
For piano, always place your mics as outlined in the tutorial, to capture the full stereo sound, just as the pianist hears it. The audience, the venue, the hall and everything else will take care of themselves. Your job as a recording engineer is to capture the best possible sound of the piano for the single listener at home who buys the recording.
APPLAUSE AND UNWANTED ANNOUNCEMENTS ON LIVE RECORDINGS:
On live recordings, audience applause is natural. It is often "sweetened" or added to in post recording production to create more excitement. In classical concerts, it is expected and predictable, and it needs to be recorded along with the music.
However in casual venues....clubs, restaurants, smaller halls and pop-music events, there is often speaking, announcing, and unpredictable talking going on as each tune or movement of the music starts or finishes. This is a very tricky thing to try to separate unwanted talking, and it is important that the recording engineer rehearses with any announcers before the event to make sure there is little-to-no bleed over from announcing into or out of each recorded track.
I hope these points address your questions. As a recording artist and engineer I have dealt with these issues for many years. I wish you luck in your musical adventures !
As a pro pianist and aspiring - eevn university trained, but no pro - recording engineer and piano tech, it's PIANO 101 to understand how critical the room sound is, part and parcel of the total piano sound. There is no "best technique" as there is no best piano, though I prefer Steinway overall. It depends on the room and the instrument and probably the genre and player as well. Some would tell you the lid should be taken off. It is okay for the concert hall but those reflections are not really great for recording. Anyway, this fixation on the hammers is mostly misguided, unless one is going for a certain sound or focus. I hate the way this video - from an admired institution - is sounding and presented. Very unnatural and hyped in the overall effect. Sounds very compressed. I think sound recordings, especially of acoustic instruments and voices, was well dialed in by the fifties, and that was all about great mics and great instruments and great ROOMS. Capital Records, Studio A, for example. You just don't get better than that. As of late, engineers are just too focused on gear. For some genres, that may be fine, here, this is sucky, just my educated, well traveled, well exposed opinion, still quite humble, as you can tell.
Spaced pair with the AKG C414XLII was mind blowing. However, I noticed that Harman recommend the C414XLS for grand piano recordings. But man, who cares what they recommend when they sound like that. Both the other methods had some noticable damper bleed, which I didn't hear on the spaced pair.
So which is the best on a budget? You should make a video about how to put sound together if you haven't already. I still don't fully understand how to use mics.
Some of the best piano sounds among all the recording hint vids here on YT.
0:48 one of my favorite piano pieces ever!
What is it?
@@feeeshmeister4311 Debussy: Pour le piano, L. 95, 2. Sarabande
Thanks a lot ! The third is the most natural sound.
What if you have no money?
Ahahah! For real!
The Zoom H4N does a decent Job for its price. I think its kindoff affordable for everyone.
So, you can enjoy live perfomance)
Then steal equipment from your school/college
Behringer C-2 is also a good option for an external mics. You can even use them with the above mentioned Zoom H4n (it supports phantom power, as far as I can see). Why use external mics? Because with built-in mics you are limited to XY pattern, which is not that great when you want to record some distant source, e.g. classical ensemble (recorded on XY it will sound almost mono). With external microphones you can set up ORTF or DIN and get almost-like-a-pro result.
To me, the only drawback of C-2's is somewhat higher noise level, but for their price this can be forgiven. To give you an idea of it, I can say that it is audible (on a record, of course) in a total silence, but is completely masked by a noise of a concert hall full of people just before the start of a performance, which can be considered very quiet. Of course, any instrument is so much louder that practically this is not an issue at all.
AB (25-35cm apart) near the piano tail about 1-1.5m above the floor and 1-1.5m away from the piano for classic (Nathan Shirley, CLASSICAL PIANO RECORDING), or XY at the front of the piano at the middle of the “rounded” part, 30cm above the edge of the case and 30cm away for jazz/pop. In both cases central line between mics is pointing to the lowest A0 bass damper.
I am using cardioid microphones instead of omni due to the noisy environment.
Wow! I've had Rebekah as one of my instructors in the online degree program. I knew she could play piano, but I had never heard her play until now and have not even seen her until now. What a great pianist she is and rather beautiful as a woman as well. Way to go Rebekah!
Hey. May I ask how to mix the recordings ? Do you hard pan to the opposite sides ?
Thanks for this video. I tried Blumlein with two AKG C3000 (old, bi-directional version) and recorded a Förster Grand in a school concert. Even with these budget microphones I got very sweet sounding, clear and natural recordings. Amazing!
Hey guys thanks for the video! I was hoping you could either do a How To Video regarding mixing both a clean or distorted guitar? Thanks so much!
blumlein sounds amazing! I wish I had more than one figure of 8 pattern mic...
The capsules are at a 90-degree angle to each other for stereo separation, not to reduce the amount of phase issues. Reducing phase issues is why the capsules are immediately next to each other.
Wonder how the stereo left to right should be. In your video, Low is on Left, and High on the Right. It is correct from the player's point of view.
From the audience, I felt Low should on the Right, and High on the Left. Is it just an artistic point of view or there is a rule?
Wait, but how do I record my upright piano??
Hello. Do you know why I cannot avoid an explosive buzzing sound when I use xy to record piano?
Sure wish I had another 414 XLII. Only have one at the moment.
Ms. Todia! She's an awesome professor.
could you just use two cheap, regular microphones? Like for example, could you use two of those small clip-on microphones that news reporters always wear?
Can you use diferent mics for recording? A c414 and a blue bottle for example
Really nice sound here... I need to hear more tho..
I like the last setting.
Does "Spaced Pair" require special microphones, or can I use the same kind of microphones that was used for the XY-recording? I ask, because the I have access to such microphones used in the XY, but I think the audio is better in the spaced-pair: Picks up a better bass, and gives a richer sound.
What about recording the room reverb? Should also be a mic for that.
To be honest, I like second setup where microphones where placed on distance from each other the most.
Great video and thanks for sharing. I've tried these configurations and more and, without fail, I end up with a muddy woofy recording. I'm playing on a 5'4" yamaha grand inside a room about the size of a large loungeroom with a 9' ceiling. The lid is fully raised and I'm using two Rode condensor cardio mics. Mixing is through Logic Pro x. Is there anything obviously wrong in my settings that you can think of? Thanks in advance. Any help is appreciated.
For the purpose of recording a piano recital with hidden microphones, where would you recommend placement of a spaced pair, or XY configuration?
Which would you use in a live performance situation, like a jazz quintet?
Maybe it depends on the Jazz style. I wonder if you would use XY for traditional jazz and Spaced Pair for for Bublé style jazz. Sounds like your situation is for traditional jazz?
thank you for this video. Did you use AKG 414 xls for the Bloomline? If so, which setting were they on? thanks again.
+oneTwoThree Blumline is always with two bi-directional mics :)
+Stina Fagerberg thank you for that. Great video. By the way, for home recordings, are there any other resources for recommended equipment for grand pianos? I'd love to study this in college.
Good piano playing
Nice video! Which is model of this two AKG C414 ?
I prefer to use cardioid large diaphragm studio condenser mics on tall stands, positioned left and right of the piano's hammer line. This way, a more natural balance of the sound is captured and it sounds more like an acoustic than a MIDI sampled piano. A slight bit of hall ambience is gained with this method, too.
Spaced pair sounds the best.
It sounds so good. Do you do a lot of recording?
What recording piano two times,, overdub?
This is a weird video because the listener will be wondering ""am I comparing the mic brands or the mics patterns (card or omni) or mic positioning?" The ideal comparison will be using the same mics for all the different positions. I hope you didn't use differ preamps for all positions or that will be an additional worry to think about. And in addition to that you need to worry what the listeners are using to compare these takes...are they using laptop speakers or ipod earphone or professional monitoring headphones or ??? So doing comparison this way can be difficult.
I couldn't agree more...this video lacked a point and was almost a waste of 3 minutes
The pencil condensers are more commonly used for the XY pattern. The AKG 414s used in the other techniques are capable of different polar patterns, like the figure of 8 for the blumlein technique. Basically, different mics are better for different things, which I think is why they used different ones :)
Does anyone know where I can get the microphones and microphone stand/setup shown in the xy techique 0:38 or what brand someone who knows what they're taking about recommends?
***** I guess it's Neumann KM 140.
May I check what are the mic used. Thank you
That is one beautiful piano
spaced pair sounds the best by itself, but XY position is important when you want to mix the piano into a song and use it as an ornament(not a base). I...really have no idea what use there is for that "bloom line" position, though :/
Great piano playing!
Whats the name of the piece in the beginning?
And if you wrote the models of the mics you used it would be really cool.
PLEASE CAN SOMEONE TELL WHICH MICROPHONE IS ON 2:02 ?? thankz
AKG C414
***** thank you!!
Facu Bozzi specifically its the AKG C414 XLII
chrisrushman thanks!
Could these be used for live sound as well?
I have a matched pair of rode nt5's.Is the only option for me xy technique?
Ever tried a Beta 91a in a live setting? Also, what would you recommend to get rid of the sound of the pads? Or maybe it was actually the sound of her foot being transferred through the mic stand? Would you recommend a low cut to take care of that?
which mics did you use at the end? :)
hey could you play kiss the rain by yimura?
Excellent advice. Thanks!
Are those AKG's XlII's or B-XLS's?
sounds amazing!
Great post. Thanks.
Thanks for the interesting and useful posting.
what is rebecca playing
Very informative. Thanks.
xy were neumanns, then akg 414s i believe.
My current options for xy are two AKG C1000s, and a Zoom H4 field recorder with built in stereo XY condenser mics.
The AKG C1000's are possibly the most hated mics ever according to review forums, and the Zoom only records to its own internal memory card. I don't think I can bypass the memory card and just use the mics wired to the recorder of my choice. I may have to spend money.
I've seen a lot of comments about: how much a mic like that etc etc...
If you are new to this then i think its the best to achive a cheap one and experiment with it. The fact youre owning a very high end microfon doesnt make ur mix sound awesome ;) Try to experiment and try to gain as much as experience you can get :P
Is this a C6X Yamaha or regular C6?
Grotrian Steinweg I don’t know that it’s a 6 (could be 7?), but it’s certainly C and not CX. You can tell by the shape the sides/fins on either end of the keyboard.
Thanks for good informtation
I exactly imagine which harmonies I want to hear after the played notes^^
I want more spaced pair sound! More...
thanks
Thanks you, sir.
Good video. I thought the XY gave the most natural sound. Some others gave more pronounced stereo but maybe a slight “hole” in the middle.
Spaced pair is my preference. The other two methods have some level of phase canceling to enhance the stereo. If it doesn't sound cohesive enough bring the pairs closer. A center mic in addition is sometimes helpful also.
Spaced pair sounds the best
Great video! Thanks! Subscribed:D
Nice but the dynamic range of a piano is huge, that would be the main problem surely?
Im gonna combine blumlein with a mono tube mic hanging over the strings
He used for some AKG 414s of some kind
needed to be more in-depth.. (recommend brand/model of mics)
The XY is the most accurate, as the player hears the piano from this perspective. The Blumlein is nice, but I have never had the possibility of playing piano with my ears near the right back of the piano! Placing the XY mics closer to the performer is even better. Realism is always safer for phase and engages the player in their own recording playback. Chris Huston discovered this XY for drums as well, in the 70s. Always pursue the performers perspective, not from a scientists.
The only problem with using the performers perspective is if you're miking and entire band, and you want to use the audience members perspective. There should also be a single mic technique for engineers who want to mix piano as a mono source amongst other instruments.
A pair of XYs over the hammers, then closing the lid with the short stick, covering with a few sound blankets is still the best way to mic a piano! Even mono, as the phase is still intact, and the piano still sounds like a piano!
Robt Perkins The technique you describe works very well in some situations, but there is no ONE best way to mic a piano. For instance, I would NEVER record classical music that way. The microphone is an electronic ear, and no one listens to a performance of piano music with their head over the hammers and a blanket on top of them. The instrument was designed to use the lid to diffuse the sound out into a room or concert hall. That's why something like the Blumlein technique and positioning works well for classical (as does mid-side from that position). Conversely, I would definitely place mics closer to the hammers and make use of blankets when needing punchy, clear tracks for pop or country music.
Well, if you are listening with Phase coherent speakers, to an XY piano recording, it will sound like a real piano in your room. If you therefore wish to simulate a concert hall, I suggest you set up a surround system and a great reverb processor, rather than compromise the recording of the piano by mics from the back. Again, no performer sticks his head in the back to hear the beauty of the instrument. Plus, no average audience member notices the diff between any of these techniques. Only a performer really cares how the piano sounds. If you wish to record a concert hall, use XY above the stage, as the conductor hears it. Add real hall reverb. Never put mics over the back of a piano! The lid reflects into the room, so record the room, not the contorted sound that the 'electronic ear' hears from the back of the piano. And blankets? There are for sleeping! Buy a Kurzweil Forte for anything else and run it thru a PA. Music is created by performers, to be enjoyed by the listener, without scientific engineers coming up with strange places to put a pair of ears. Keep it natural.
Robt Perkins
Robt - can't say I fully agree. At least not listening to this demo. Each technique has its pros and cons. I listened to the demo on my large speakers that are about 13ft apart. All the samples are nice, but for me:
X-Y: Sounds dry clean and narrow. I do agree that it's the pianist's perspective.
Spaced pair: Makes the piano 13ft wide. Sounds cool and very rich, but overblown.
Blumlein: Width is in-between X-Y and spaced. Most natural to me, but does tend to pull highs and lows in opposite directions - thu not as much as spaced.
Maybe Blumlein with cardioid instead of figure 8 would sound more natural?
use PZMs too! They work great!
the large diaphragm ones in the second two examples.
Nice work, but, this is the second piano mic'ing video I've watched tonight where the selection of music didn't cover the range of the keyboard. So we never truly heard the full stereo extent and it's tough to judge your technique or attention to detail, which in recording is about all there is, no?
To be honest, The AKG sounds much better than the Nueman..
blumlein sounds the best for classical.
Sounds like but not for a listeners point of siund but from a players perspective
It doesn't look like you followed the 3:1 rule on your spaced pair; they were too far from the sound source. Though on a short piano like that it's hard to tell any phase problems from other problems that piano had.
Those are XLII's! The AKG C414 XLS doesn't have the gold finish :)
Am I the only one that hears like a 'bass drum' each time the pianist uses the pedal? I hear it the most in the first example, although it's hard to tell since each sample is a different piece...
Bloomlein!!
I suspect it doesn't matter what she plays. It will different for every piano and microphone set up anyway. I thought there was only one way but according to Google there are at least 13. I assume few people would have microphones of this quality.
Blumlein = Intimacy!
Oh dear!
AKG C414
The "bloom line" sounds more spacious 3 dimensional.
I can hear the pedal tOo much in the first setup
Same in the last setup.
I prefer 2nd method.
The piece she plays at the end... Chopin? I'm spacing.
Typical sound guy; no bullshit. Thanks.
I wanted to record myself for a friend but I guess not..
Not great music examples. I'd be interested to hear high and low and middle notes with each setup.
This introduction is good. But this is too short too brief. Say, which types of microphone should be used? Dynamic or Condensed Microphone. I think the recording technique for the piano should be a series of video.