I feel like that's an odd dichotomy, considering that many social media platforms, including UA-cam, also push for ~minute long runtimes. Both likely go toward the same goal, I've just never heard someone really call out the longform end of it.
I just want to say Steph's video has perfectly mirrored how I feel about the excessive normalization of monetary gacha games like Genshin Impact or the other trash made by MiHoYo and the community's rabid insistence to blame the victim for getting addicted to it financially and openly making jokes about how "funny" the addiction to gaming is. We're still at a point societally where we refuse to take gacha addiction seriously despite it being a life-ruining thing for many, and we only have seen it be normalized and victim-blaming because most people aren't pulled in by the psychological draw of the dopamine hit. My father is literally dead because of his alcohol addiction, but apparently we don't take it seriously because of gacha? It's why Genshin and other games of its ilk has quickly crawled its way up my shit-list and I wouldn't complain if we normalized shaming people for defending the game mechanically; it's harmful and psychologically predatory, and that's _before_ getting into how the sausage is made with China being a genocidal authoritarian nation and the blatant racism/colorism demonstrated by the devs. Stop defending bad and exploitative behavior. Stop defending addiction. Games shouldn't be that, they should be fun and an escape. By making addiction something to be seen as positive, we only ensure more exploitation and abuse happens due to it as well.
Here's the thing if you can delete the game data halfway through and still wanna play, then it's not really addictive. If you can delete it halfway through and then you're like. Yeah, I'm not going back to that. I'm just gonna go on to something else cause I'm not gonna waste all that time, energy and effort. Because it's just such a slow and long ride to just get to wherever that was, I was halfway through and then to just yeah, you know what? And that's the problem, a lot of games you know Hades is another example. Yes, if you had a lot of those tools at your disposal from the beginning, you would probably take a couple of times to get through it, but you literally have to complete the game multiple times to get the ending which means you comes down to luck and stuff, which why not just let players have access to most of that stuff from the start and the truth is. Most games are not necessarily even difficult. And you're not getting better either. The only thing that's happening like in Elden. Ring is you're slowly getting higher and higher stats. And it's like the better play. You are the sooner you can do whatever, but if you're not a good player. You're gonna be like one of the 99% of people that doesn't actually complete Elden. Ring, I don't know this b******* of how so many other people then, but without looking at a guide. No one's completing it like it's very artificial. It's all artificial they. Say it's difficult, but the reality is most of the difficulty is artificial it's. Basically a slow grind gate. Keep and unless you stick-at-it. For many, many hours you're never gonna complete it. And it's not even about necessarily even getting good, because you're gonna be very good and like I said, just get one shot. Oh, I'm sorry. Did your frame rate stutter for seconds too bad. That 3 and a 1/2 half hour grind of a battle that you just did pretty much flawlessly. No longer counts because you got one shotted. You have to attempt the boss again. I'm like, are you kidding me? I'm like back in the day. That would be like ninja guide and run flawless. Wait, but at least that game is like if you did it flawlessly, you could complete it relatively fast. With this stuff, it's like you you even if you do it flawlessly. No, it's gonna take you forever for everything. Unless of course, you spend the other forever trying to get like, I said, up to level I mean it's just all these games. Most of them suck the the last good game. I played in all honesty out of my mind that. Was just fun. I had a great time. I paid $70 for and when it was done I was done and still go back to play Now And Then is armored core. That's the one I go back to. That's the one I enjoy the most in my memory. It's not long, it's not drawn out any longer than it needs to be. There's tons emissions. It sure as hell is a challenge, especially the first. Time through, but once you get all the weapons and stuff. Man, and you get a good build. You can just crush them and if you know what you're doing. Yeah. You can get the right parts and you can really just f*** up a lot of bosses from early game as long as you understand the mechanics, right? I'm like once you figure it out. The bosses are a lot easier. And you don't have to spend as long fighting them. If you want a bigger challenge, you can handicap yourself a little bit or if you want to just try the mission in a certain type of Meck, you know, the challenges you can self impose. If you want to get more out of the game, you know, you could try to get the s ranks and the perfect but you don't need to in order to complete the game. So it's like it's not an insane amount of filler. You're not sitting there like in some games. And I'm just gonna say this like God of war. I looked at it and it's just like all this traveling time. I'm like the original games. You just went from one puzzle to 1 action to the next. Sure. It's a story game and II get all that but. That's what drew me to God of war. Initially, they changed it. It's not the same game that I initially would have bought. Devil may cry a lot of action. But then what happened? They got this character in that character and it's like an incoherent game, so that's why devil may cry 3 is still the best out of them because you had one character for 20 missions that you enjoyed and loved. VS like 3 that you get like a couple of missions in each. Then you can f*** right off so. If you have a particular favorite well, you're only gonna enjoy them for a very small portion of game sucks. I'm just like it's just games. Do suck overall in general. Even the ones you pay for that don't have any more micro. Transactions still suck. I mean, look at Black Ops zombies only now are they planning to do like a guided f****** thing. After how many games they're finally saying Hey, do you wanna play along the story and challenge the boss? Here's how you can do it ill. Ciguite kind of thing, which is literally what you would just call a f****** game literally every other game does this. They're not making you do really obscure a** S*** to just find the boss and then be able to complete it. So it's like about f****** time like I don't care what the guy's original intention. It's like okay, fine, you know, people figure it out, and it's like no, no, no one should have to. Be get a doctoral on cracking game codes. And you know, be a cryptologist in order to figure out. Oh Hey, if you shoot this little thing over here, it'll give you a wonder weapon that you can use for free or if you go do all this obscure a** s*** in this particular order and this particular manner. Then oh yeah. Guess what? You get to fight this cool secret boss. It's like if that's for you. That's fine in it, but it's like to have the expectation of players to be able to figure all that out and do all that when it is just obscure and random, and just something that would only really happen by pure coincidence and then needing like multitudes of pure coincidence to get there. Like it is something only really possible in today's age with communication. But especially not back down without actually someone being told like what to do, and having light people basically give hints to people where they're doing that and again, you know how many people are gonna see that and be able to figure it out. Who do see it who are looking or notice? So it's like it's absolutely absurd like it is. Video gaming is a cult almost in itself now and needs a s*** ton of criticism. I play warframe. I have everything but keeping up with the grind is too much. Even if you pay for the platinum, you still have to do a s*** ton of grinding. To keep up and then on top of that, like I'm trying to decorate a dojo, which estimate wise to finish would take me between 1 and 3000 hours and unless I get help for my clan mates, which they'll probably help me. It's still gonna take about 3 to 5 years and it's just like By then, they'll probably close the servers. Anyway, who the hell knows and it's just like the grind's probably just gonna get worse. And it's just, it real consume your life. I mean, I have to set like okay. No more than 10 hours a week. And I'm only make an exception now because I'm helping one of my clan mates do con. Clave. And thankfully, we're almost done I think we're like only 800 K off for him. I'm done with that, but that's my point. I'm like then. I'll have a lot more time to just get caught up. And he'll help me with that and then I can just pretty much decorate while I'm waiting for the next thing. And then when I get the coupon for 75% off. I'm just gonna do that and passively. Sell stuff in the market trade chat because well. I have pretty much everything, so it's. Not too hard for me to do that. And then when I've decorated it to completion. I'm gonna. I have it set up so that way. I can get a 100 people who are also mastery. Rank like 3 or 4 who have about 10:00 extra of every resource needed. So that way I can build everything in it. And then, once it's all build, I upgraded it to moon. I can invite those 100 people. I can invite everyone on my friends list and then anyone? In the alliance who would like to just join or never did anything with their dojo. And then finally when all of that done I can just give everyone a bonus of Endo. As part of the ascension. It's a stalker themed dojo but it's gonna take a long time. It's gonna take a lot of work and I want to live my other own life I want to have a family relationship obviously I want. I got other things I do I want to do my sewing and stuff. And it's just like it literally demands your life. If I wasn't like basically a homeless veteran for years. With basically a gaming computer laptop. There's no way I could have gotten that far in warframe. People wanna be like me and it's like no, you don't. Do you want to be sexually assaulted? Do you want to be right? Do you want horrible? Horrible things happening to you. I don't think so. That is the price of mastery rank for. In warframe, pain trauma loneliness. That is the true cost of all free to play games and addictive games
Maybe start calling 'bad' addictive games 'coercive'? That's the difference between a game that enjoys spending time with ya and a game that twists your arm to make you stay
Coercive is a great adjective for those predatory games. Games that aren't fun. To play but have you playing to play is coercive, it's coercing you to keep playing for one more thing. Its showing you a carrot that you chase because the game is designed to make you chase it even when it shouldn't be that hard
So, I'm retraining in psychology at the moment. And one thing I learned this week is that the dopamine pathway is the part of your brain that makes you WANT to do a thing. It is a separate mental process to actually LIKING a thing. Just thought it was relevant to this vid
I've noticed this with coffee drinking. I sometimes find myself really stoked, "hell yeah, I can have cup of coffee soon!" and after a few sips, I find myself wondering "I'm not really enjoying this all that much." It's not that I dislike the taste of coffee, I find it quite neutral, but the drive to have coffee is much stronger than the drive to actually enjoy it.
Interesting, thank you! I guess that is the explanation why these games leave you drained but never satisfied and yet you keep coming back. Sounds like the exact weakness that is being exploited here.
Yeah, its a common myth that dopamine is a reward chemical. It isn't, dopamine hits before the reward, and it makes you want to work to get the reward. In a skinner box, the dopamine doesn't hit when the reward comes, it hits when you go to pull the lever.
The issue with addictive games is actually why I don't play most MMOs, and why I ditch some games in general. Even without the paywall stuff, there are some games where their loops are just too addictive, while never being GOOD. So eventually, I drop them. Not easily, not in a way that's fun, but so I can maintain my own well-being. And it sucks that this is the world we live in.
I just want to say Steph's video has perfectly mirrored how I feel about the excessive normalization of monetary gacha games like Genshin Impact or the other trash made by MiHoYo and the community's rabid insistence to blame the victim for getting addicted to it financially and openly making jokes about how "funny" the addiction to gaming is. We're still at a point societally where we refuse to take gacha addiction seriously despite it being a life-ruining thing for many, and we only have seen it be normalized and victim-blaming because most people aren't pulled in by the psychological draw of the dopamine hit. My father is literally dead because of his alcohol addiction, but apparently we don't take it seriously because of gacha? It's why Genshin and other games of its ilk has quickly crawled its way up my shit-list and I wouldn't complain if we normalized shaming people for defending the game mechanically; it's harmful and psychologically predatory, and that's _before_ getting into how the sausage is made with China being a genocidal authoritarian nation and the blatant racism/colorism demonstrated by the devs. Stop defending bad and exploitative behavior. Stop defending addiction. Games shouldn't be that, they should be fun and an escape. By making addiction something to be seen as positive, we only ensure more exploitation and abuse happens due to it as well.
this is how i had a r*id sh*dow l*gends phase for a few good months. I just wanted to cash in a reward from a streamer i liked to support them without direct cash, then boom, trapped in the "gameplay" loop. good thing i never spent money on the microtransaction cash (mainly bc i am broke af and VERY spiteful)
"Merger" mobile games get me bad. They're not good games but something about managing space and planning hours, days, or weeks ahead that you need to collect x amount of gems or coconuts or w/e to get combo bonuses just gets me hooked. I found one of these games that doesn't have a cash shop or ads at all, but I'm wasting hours of my life on this empty simple shit that doesn't even sound interesting to other people when I try to talk about it.
One of my first favorite games had a loading screen that said "although your character doesn't need to eat, YOU do, please take care of yourself" or something like that, reminding people to take breaks and go eat something or move around or just generally be human every so often. I try to hold games to that standard, of caring about their players, and it feels like more and more games just could not care less.
I remember reading a cracked article back in like 2010 about how World of Warcraft was addictive, and it broke it down from how the leveling and quests and everything worked, and it just... murdered my desire to ever play the game again. I'm still immensely grateful to whoever wrote that article.
I didn't really feel like I understood the idea of being addicted to a bad game until you mentioned the plague doctor mask at 11:18. I've played MMOs where on day 1 I said, "I want that helmet. I'm gonna work until I can get that helmet," and then played for months despite actively disliking the gameplay loop. Never would've called it addiction, but... but yeah, that's basically exactly how addiction works.
I'd say it's more this: You set a goal and you want to achieve that goal. The journey to that goal (now a GREAT REWARD) set for yourself doesn't matter. What matters is the feeling your mind set to expect for getting that reward. And one thing to note is that this is an "easy" goal to attain. Boring the trek may be, but you're set to do it until you finish.
I've realised the nefariously addicting part about games thanks to the daily login gimmick. While you like the game you play it daily and it doesn't seem like a big deal until it becomes a habit and when you no longer want to play the game anymore you still log in daily because habit compells you to.
Likewise. I, fortunately, have never found gambling et al to be at all appealing - hell, I'm a roleplayer/wargamer who doesn't even get excited about *rolling the dice* (to me, a dice is just a random number generator, speciality dice and such just.... Don't do anything for me.) I am also not into shooter/action RPG sort of games... (Vampire Survivors also doesn't show me any appeal.) So I was sitting here and watching JSS play and going "but why? This looks just absolutely awful and I'm not sure I'd even play it if you put a gun to my head...?" And then the plague mask and I was like "ah, yes, okay, now I can see, sort of..." This is not to demean the very clear problem, but as someone who doesn't suffer from it, this particular instance of it needed that example to drive it home. (On the flipside, the game I have most logged hours in Rimworld (1200+ hours...), which ironically, does have a strong RNG element. (Which, admittedly, I save-scum around if it does something I don't like...) So is that additctive...? I don't know, but I would say maybe not, since it doesn't really have much of the same sort of rewards, as such? I find I come back to it (most games only get one, maybe two playthroughs out of me) because the extensive mods make it like a new game each time, and there's always some pottering around to do. But if it is "addictive" maybe it's the most benign kind that we, as noted, don't have distinguishing nomenculture for.)
@@AotrsCommander I think it depends on what exactly you mean by "coming back to it". There's a healthy type of "coming back" and a definitely unhealthy type. Like, I've been addicted to Warframe quite a few times, and every now and again I can't resist the urge to reinstall it and then I go months playing as a really unhealthy habit. On the other hand, I have many games I consider my comfort games-Half Life 2, for instance, is a game every now and then I come back to: I reinstall it, I finish it once again (with the time I have, instead of making time for it), I uninstall it, and that's the end of it.
"Engaging" is the excat replacement word I was thinking of. "Compelling" is another good one because when I think of a game being "addictive" in a positive way, it's because I'm engaged with some part of it and it compels me to keep playing
When I was working at a mobile game studio, our studio director said to the designers "It's easy to make a good game. What's hard is how to make a good product." -> The subtext being "Fun is overrated. Figure out how to make people spend money." I feel the industry may have hit a flip where too few people know how to do the former and all too many know how to do the latter.
Its actually really hard to make a good game and much easier to turn a shitty game into a functional product? Like, that guy's statement is 'tell me you've never played a good game without telling me' levels of not true.
I also have a very intense personal issue with the word 'addicting'. I am so glad to hear someone else does, so thank you Stephanie, thank all the gods for you. Drives me absolutely barmy when people use it in place of 'addictive'.
@@NoPlanHan I mean, it is a word, it's just never used as it should be. If we play one of these predatory games, we risk addicting ourselves to it, because it is addictive. It is a clunky word to use though, and it has an even more unpleasant brain feel when used in the wrong place.
Sorry to derail the comments but this is the first time in ages that I understood why Bruce Lee and Stan Lee was being flashed on the screen due to all words ending in ly.
Part of the problem is ableism, someone might as well mention. People without addiction issues going "tee hee, I'm so addicted", the same way people do with whatever other funny-ized neurodivergences that coincide with serious struggles in life, schizophrenia being another recent example. These days, I pretty well judge a game's quality by how much *less* I play it than I wish I did. I have both motivation issues and am vulnerable to addiction, so if I play a game a lot, it probably isn't because I want to, and there are plenty of games where I make a plan to play it and then just don't because it's hard to do things.
To summarise then, 'compelling' for positive and 'coercive' for negative...though it may be too much to hope that we can collectively stop using the word 'addictive' (or effing 'addicting') with videogames.
an addictive game I appreciate is balatro. My first few weeks of it, I genuinely was sucked in (and thankful that it doesn't ask for real money). But after I broke through the easiest and middest-difficulty decks and challenges and really got to the meat of it, losing a game does act as an effective "out" for me. I play a couple of runs, get crushed, return to the game in a day or two when my spirit is restored. I'm now microdosing balatro, is what I'm saying
My brother got sucked into Balatro, so much so the bgm is burned into my head. I feel compelled to ask "How can solitaire be this entertaining?" And I refuse to play it for fear of an aswer 😰 /hj
@@THENAMEISQUICKMAN But it really isn't? Sure, it uses poker hands for it's scoring structure, but that's where the resemblance ends. The core of poker is betting, and there's zero of in Balatro.
I was going to say this too! I've introduced it to two different people, one who isn't even a gamer, and neither can put it down. It manages to be addictive while being actually really good.
thank you so much for talking about this, i'm a recovering addict and there are SO MANY games i can't play because they pray on the same unhealthy urges and patterns of behaviour that have caused me so much trouble, and it can get out of hand quickly. seeing this promoted as a selling point makes me very uncomfortable, and is sadly very telling about where the games industry is as a whole.
One of the best videos you've done in a while. Proper old school, healthy content for making gamers more mindful. I also liked the more chilled, serious (at times lol) tone to it.
Perhaps we need to he using more words like "compelling" or "engrossing". Those are usually used positively with TV shows and movies, and definitely feel like they have more positive connotations than "addictive" P.S. I also dislike the word "addicting" compared to "addictive"
Addiction is when a compulsive behavior is destructive to one's self. Habitual is when a compulsive behavior has positive impacts on one's life. So might be a good way for you to distinguish a good and bad "addiction"
I'd say habitual is a fairly neutral term. You could exercise habitually or smoke habitually. Just means something you do regularly without really thinking about why. Though I understand the distinction you're trying to make a good word for 'thing done compulsively to no ill effect' doesn't spring to mind. Just addictive behavior (damaging) and habitual behavior (neutral) Edit: Habitual smoker is a good example. Many people arn't really 'that' addicted to cigarettes but because of that slight buzz will just light up whenever they can rather than when they really want one, and once they break that pattern of behavior don't really have psychical or psychological cravings.
watching your footage, reminds me of how many games substitute overhead for content. Like my old painful days of being a wow raider, you do stuff you don't want to do to, to prep for things you do want to do, that might fail and just move you to the next prep cycle. its not a gameplay loop, its a pure grind loop.
On the flip side, some people really enjoy the planning phase of something. As it's an MMO, having a complex multidiscipline progression is a compelling idea for those who want to work in groups. Once the complex system is able to be productized however, it just becomes a grind as much as a job is a grind.
I remember a couple years ago, that one blocky styled Pokemon game that released for mobile and switch, whatever it's name was. I started it, hoping it might kind of be like the rumble games I liked. I played it A LOT for a few days, kept grinding and trying to get better things, damn near spent money on it, before one moment it randomly hit me. "I'm not having fun." I didn't enjoy ANY of the time I was spending on the game. But it got me hooked for just long enough to make me feel invested, make me feel like I HAD to keep it up. It was certainly addictive, but that sure as hell wasn't a good thing. I'm glad I got myself to drop it before I spent any money on it.
It is why i stopped playing games that have "Daily quests" or whatever garbage they call it - they are trying to make you addicted and create a habbit, instead of playing just for the enjoyment of the game.
I realised how this works when it took me half a year to uninstall a game I long stopped playing for real, just doing my daily dose of dailies. I realised things about myself that time too.
I first felt that way with Pokemon games of all things (The Honey Trees in Diamond are the ones that particularly comes to mind. You need to check out every 6 hours to see if you got something.) At some point, I'm realizing it's a chore, a full time job, and I'm just doing it out of habits, and not for any kind of enjoyment and I just stop. It's a terrible feeling, so I'll avoid games that promise to make me feel that way.
We should probably revive the word "compelling" for this. When a game is good-addictive it compels you to try more with its quality, you feel genuinely engaged with the loop or the story or the art or the exploration and think that you want to see a little bit more before you stop. Addictive is, as J.Steph said, when a game preys on you to keep you going. You're not engaged so much as you are obsessed.
I have 2400 hours in the first ARK game. Its not a good game, it just sets of the dopamine addiction in my brain. Ive gotten abstinence symptoms from it at one point. Those 2400 hour's arent a flex. They are almost a cry for help
I just want to say Steph's video has perfectly mirrored how I feel about the excessive normalization of monetary gacha games like Genshin Impact or the other trash made by MiHoYo and the community's rabid insistence to blame the victim for getting addicted to it financially and openly making jokes about how "funny" the addiction to gaming is. We're still at a point societally where we refuse to take gacha addiction seriously despite it being a life-ruining thing for many, and we only have seen it be normalized and victim-blaming because most people aren't pulled in by the psychological draw of the dopamine hit. My father is literally dead because of his alcohol addiction, but apparently we don't take it seriously because of gacha? It's why Genshin and other games of its ilk has quickly crawled its way up my shit-list and I wouldn't complain if we normalized shaming people for defending the game mechanically; it's harmful and psychologically predatory, and that's _before_ getting into how the sausage is made with China being a genocidal authoritarian nation and the blatant racism/colorism demonstrated by the devs. Stop defending bad and exploitative behavior. Stop defending addiction. Games shouldn't be that, they should be fun and an escape. By making addiction something to be seen as positive, we only ensure more exploitation and abuse happens due to it as well.
It's okay to have spent time poorly, as long as you make the decision not to keep doing it. We all learn by our mistakes, and some take longer to learn from. Best of luck quitting the habit and finding a more diverse range of games to enjoy on more levels.
I've only got 300 hours but I'm grateful I can say it was fun despite at least 1/5th of the time being spent looking at the loading screen because I was really into it when I had my laptop and only played it for a bit after I got a much better PC
I'm in recovery for opioid addiction. I'll say when I was clean but playing Dota 2 I was as obsessed with my MMR as I had been with any drugs. I quit playing. Straight up addicted. I'd play for like 18 hours, flip out any time I lost significant MMR and my entire mood was dictated by a video game and 9 strangers who just so happened to be playing the same game as I was. Had to quit playing ranked. If I play now its ONLY versus bots. It was straight up as addictive and as stimulating to my reward pathways as opioids had been with no exaggeration.
I don't have a tendency towards addiction (thankfully) but I've been noticing it more and more in mobile games. I'll try to pick up a new game and after a few days with it I'll ask myself "am I playing this game because I enjoy it or because it feels like a chore that needs doing?" That's really the best way I can describe intentionally "addictive" games if they don't sink their hooks into you: they're designed to be a chore.
ive never been a wrestling person, but i love the wrestling clips at the beginning. its so clear how much fun you and the other wrestlers are having, and i enjoy it by proxy :)
*gamers:* omg this game is so addictive! *what they mean:* this game was really enjoyable and i felt like i couldn't put it down! :D *corpos:* omg this game is so addictive *what they mean:* this game has been designed to be addictive not enjoyable and you can't put it down >:)
I’m so glad my video game ADHD prevents me from getting addicted to any one title…. I wish it would let me stay invested enough for me to at least finish a game before wanting to hop into a different one, but hey, at least I won’t waste time when I’m actively miserable.
Don't multi task. Stop giving other things your dopamine. Stay off social media. Dedicate time to gaming as a priority. If you truly want to start beating games
from one gaming ADHDr to another; damned if you do, damned if you don't. I trained myself to actually finish games and ignore urges to play something else until I was finished. Now I am unable to drop games even after I decide I don't like them, best I can do is gaslight myself into lowering my standards for what I should do aside of the bare minimum to reach the credits roll.
I got Addicted to Fire Emblem Heroes, a gacha game based on a special interest franchise of mine, I played it every day since launch, even when my phone broke and i could only see a quarter of my screen, till it's 7th year anniversary where the naggling feeling of being annoyed at the game, the realisation I had spent about 3000-4000£ on the game compiled with a pointless fan poll which got a character which i didn't like to win till my brain suddenly clicked and uninstalled it, about a year later I reinstalled it, played it for 2 weeks and then uninstalled it again without spending anything, and every now and then I STILL get my brain pulled back. I have had NIGHTMARES about this game where I'm stuck trying to pull whatever new character they released for hours, multiple times. Addiction hunting games have preyed on me so much that now I struggle to play more than 2-3 hours in most games if they don't make me addicted, even if I like the game, it's awful.
As somebody who's a diehard Fire Emblem fan (Fates and Tellius are two of some of my favorite games of all time, I love them as much as Steph loves Silent Hill 2 and Bloodborne), I get you. I played it at launch, and the I completely left the game after lucking out and getting a five-star Hinoka after getting Arthur (one of my favorite FE characters) and Odin, and realizing... this isn't fun. At all. The appeal of FE to me is to be able to interact and empathize with the characters I adore as people, and have them be the heroes of that story and run. Their lives and their stories, and whether they live or die. So to have the inability to choose my favorite characters except through a literal slot machine? I think that killed a lot of the fun of it for me, so I just... quit. At this point, the only value Heroes has for me is the art and the fact it made FE as a verse absolutely cracked in power-scaling. And the thing that pisses me off the most, to paraphrase from my other comments? The excuses: "I just want to say Steph's video has perfectly mirrored how I feel about the excessive normalization of monetary gacha games like Genshin Impact or the other trash made by MiHoYo and the community's rabid insistence to blame the victim for getting addicted to it financially and openly making jokes about how "funny" the addiction to gaming is. We're still at a point societally where we refuse to take gacha addiction seriously despite it being a life-ruining thing for many, and we only have seen it be normalized and victim-blaming because most people aren't pulled in by the psychological draw of the dopamine hit. My father is literally dead because of his alcohol addiction, but apparently we don't take it seriously because of gacha? It's why Genshin and other games of its ilk has quickly crawled its way up my shit-list and I wouldn't complain if we normalized shaming people for defending the game mechanically; it's harmful and psychologically predatory, and that's _before_ getting into how the sausage is made with China being a genocidal authoritarian nation and the blatant racism/colorism demonstrated by the devs. Stop defending bad and exploitative behavior. Stop defending addiction. Games shouldn't be that, they should be fun and an escape. By making addiction something to be seen as positive, we only ensure more exploitation and abuse happens due to it as well."
I've played FEH since launch, and suddenly stopped just about a year ago (Last units I remember pulling were Brave M!Robin, Veyle and Halloween Timerra) because it just kinda clicked for me that I wasn't having fun anymore, and having to keep up with it every day was tiring. The constant powercreep AND featurecreep was and still is excessive, where every new skill and weapon has whole paragraphs of text to explain effects, and new unit types are introduced every few months. I still keep up with their updates, watching their banner announcements 'cause I like the art and enjoy seeing what new units get added to the game, but as far as story goes, I mentally checked out of book 7 due to confusion and haven't even touched Book 8. Only mustered up the will to uninstall a couple weeks ago since it was just collecting dust on my phone.
There's a reason I never touched it, or the like, despite being a Fire Emblem fan. I don't trust myself enough. It's designed to make me pay more than usual, and I have enough experience to know I'll bite. Because the only way to engage (pun acknowledged) with the game is by spending way too much money and time on it.
Your crocodiles on the beach reminds me of the dark ages of MMOs. I remember when Anarchy Online first introduced a quest. To get the quest, or hand it in, you would target the NPC and then chat in vicinity using keywords the NPC would recognize. You needed an online guide to know what phrases to say. Once you were done, the NPC would despawn for 5 minutes. Only 1 person at a time could be doing this. There was a literal line of people at the location all waiting their turn to get a fkn quest, but they were doing it because it was new. The reason why WoW became such a huge hit is because it learned from the MMOs that came before it, lol. It's like we've come full circle.
As we're living in a consumer based society, based around purely on mass consumption of as much as possible, addiction is the ultimate goal of any company that sells anything. Buy the newest model of the phone every year or else you won't feel special anymore. Buy more junkfood to keep the economy going. Just watch another video on youtube, read another comment on shitter, make another post on facebook, etc etc. Games, most processed food items in any supermarket or grocery store, ads, media, are all precision engineered to be as addictive as possible on purpose, and companies spend a lot of PR on it to not have it named that. Only videogames were able to get away with it. I'm curious why, though it's probably because it started out as somewhat of a counter culture where older generations called them addictive as a bad thing, so naturally that got seen as an endorsement at the time.
It's probably not intentional, but admitting addiction to a game while also releasing relatively later than usual on Monday reinforces your point pretty well. This whole video reminded me of when I still played Destiny 2, like when I spent a whole 5 days worth of free time grinding out the same goddamn lost sector for hours, just to get some minor upgrade to a weapon I liked. ...or when I would log multiple hours A NIGHT into Apex Legends just to fully level up that season's battle pass. God, I hate battle passes so much!
One kind of addiction is compelling. You play it because it is drawing you in to play because you want more of it. The other is compulsive inducing. You play because the game has caused you to have an innate need to play more. The Former is natural from a good game, the Latter is derivative of a manipulatively designed game.
It's worth having an idea on how "addictive" entered the gaming space with such positive connotations: the gaming industry, ever since their conception, has always been closer to the gambling industry than we normally think
Thank you. I hate hearing "addictive" as a form of praise. There are particular reviewers who use it a LOT. Can't wait for the next overused adjective to push it out. Seems telling, though. Because hell yeah, that's what some of them are obviously going for. Dear Zilla, so far Notorious Lee is my favorite. You're making me laugh. Thanks.
As a long-time MMO player, this is why I don't recommend MMOs to others. I've learned to manage my time so I can play an MMO while still having a healthy work/life balance, but I know a lot of people can't do that for various reasons, and I don't want to be responsible for inflicting an addiction on anyone.
A runescape player I know once told me "it's a great game but I would never recommend it to anybody". I found that self-aware cognitive dissonance so strange. I'm glad if you manage your playtime and have fun tho - not trying to shame or anything
As someone who has spent 12 years in recovery communities for achohal and depression addiction, This is a fantastic point you are making about the verbiage we use when taking about these "broad issues". I just want to say with all due respect, addiction within recovery communities is defined by consequences, We as humans are addicted to TONS of stuff we deem socially acceptable Suger/cofffee/sex/movies/video games but clinical addiction is defended by consequences IE, I drove my car though a back yard to play NEW WORLD sooner or somthing IDK hahaha thanks for the content man, I've been watching for years and you always bring that source! be well my dude!
Jeff Minter (Yes I'm going there again, deal with it) speaks of reaching a "flow state" in your gameplay, which may be a very different thing to addiction, more like a Trance than a "Just one more go". But then, Jeff Minter designs actual complete Games, and sells them for a decent price, and can still afford a decent-sized farmhouse in Wales, with enough paddock for his flock of sheep and other animals! Oh well. Thank Jeff Minter for Commander Sterling, even if they have turned heel again in the Rasslin'.
I'm so pleased to hear you say "addictive" rather than "addicting" which bugs the absolute shit out of me. Also - agree with your point re: addictive being a positive. I mean - is heroin great? I hear that's pretty additive :')
This actually made me reevaluate how I use some of my language. Because I've referred to myself as being addicted to a number of games- like Monster Hunter, or something, but I've never actually shown addictive qualities while playing those games. I've not repeatedly skipped work, ruined relationships, or neglected my health or hygiene simply because of a video game. It's never happened. There have been any number of times that I've turned a game off and thought about playing them when I get off of work or while on the drive home, or something, or have had the music play in my head while I do other things like laundry or dishes, but I've never actually treated anything that I've called addictive... as addictive. It's been blatant hyperbole on my part for no real benefit. I think, instead, I'll use the terms like, "The hunting and crafting loop in Monster Hunter is *engrossing*" rather than saying addictive.
I found myself thinking about addiction ever since I played Azur Lane, immediately followed by Touhou 16. I like the core idea behind Azur Lane, being a bit of an erogame with a character collecting mechanic, and being a Shoot Em' Up, it's a good combination. But the monetization means that it mostly focuses on the character collecting parts, not the Shmup or erogame parts, which are what interest me the most, so I ended up dropping it pretty quick. After that, I played Touhou 16, my first game in the series, which is also a SHMUP, with lots of girls, but no erogame or collecting aspects. It is much more fun, but due to it's core gameplay loop, it gives a good "out" every 5-50 minutes, with either the player running out of continues, or beating the game, and the only thing that links subsequent runs is being more skilled and having more level knowledge. It's anti-addictive, and taught me that good games are not always ones I can play for hours at a time.
The consistent undercurrent that excessive monetization of anything is Bad, Actually in Touhou (it's the core theme, along with specific mockery of trading card games, gacha games, and NFTs, of Unconnected Marketeers, and seems to be an underlying idea of several other games and two and a half of the older comics) just makes this comparison even better.
There's addictive as in so good that you don't want to stop and there's addictive as in so addicting that you can't stop. Since games can be both we really shouldn't be using the former for it yeah.
I also enjoy it a lot for probably the same reasons (it's good and fun and even a little bit cute??), but also because something i havent said anyone say; the Persona 3 Portable music it uses, as someone who's a fan of the Persona series!!
I am *so* grateful for my specific neurospice. I do not have standard addiction outside of hyperfocus. To me, any form of gambling just... feels like the worst result. A waste of time and money. Vampire survivors chests lighting up and giving multiple rewards does not fill me with glee. The more addictive elements a game tries to include, the more exhausted they make me. I have chronic health issues and have to wrestle executive dysfunction to start up a game when I'm stressed and need to unwind in one. (You can imagine, as I'm in the States, neurospicy and queer... I'm not having a great time right now. At least there's a low barrier to "complain on internet".) At some point, I just wind up burnt out, and these days, I'm more and more inclined to just let go at the first brush of that. Upside, definitely get the little dopamine bursts when something is surprisingly good. Metaphor re Fantazio is wonderful. Also extremely on-the-nose. But still quite smartly written. Ran into a cutscene between some of the church types and obviously behind closed doors, they're all about power, not religion. The right-hand bloke makes a suggestion about how the powers that be might manipulate the contest to the church's benefit and "afterwards, I would rather like a Title." And it strikes me that his plan is competent. Another character drops a bit of foreshadowing into it, which makes me excited to see how they're going to deliver on this. They're characters that make sense. The competent plan from your direct rival establishes that he's competent. That there's a reason he has his job. And that he's not nakedly evil, just because he's not good. THAT... that is what I want to be hooked by. Hope. Hope that this will be worth beating up my inner demons and navigating a world. Hope for better days. Addiction... just promises more of the same, only less and less fun.
So there's actually reasons why New World has things like per town storage, fast travel restrictions, and fees on using work stations and marketplace. Guilds can own towns, and those guilds control what upgrades are built inside them. They also collect tax from people who live in that town, and the amount of money spent is determined by the guild that owns it. To mitigate this, you can grind out the areas you establish as a home base to lower those costs, however the point of the mechanic is to get every player to care about the towns and the guilds that run them. The idea is that if you hate the guild running your town because they make shit choices and scalp you out of money in taxes, you can help another guild take over. This can happen through wars which allow guilds who might not have the players needed to fill their lobby to invite other players to help. On top of that, settlements are linked based on which faction controls them. So if 2 settlements are owned by your faction, you can freely move resources between them. It's meant to all force you to settle into a town and engage in the in game politics to get bonuses for crafting and what else. Now through a series of other poorly designed mechanism this is all shit anyway, but the fees and fast travel restrictions do serve a purpose.
Yeah, Sterling is absolutely correct on the broader point and about New World as an exploitative poor quality game, but there are good reasons in an MMO to tax player trade and player crafting by small amounts. Essentially, because you have monsters infinitely adding gold and resources into the player economy, you need sinks to remove those things from the economy as well, otherwise you end up with out of control inflation (which the original game failed at _spectacularly_ due to duping bugs and other problems). Of course- as Stephanie points out, this could have just been an action game instead of an MMO. And even beyond that, the game definitely is designed to be addicting both their intentional and unintentional design choices.
Addictive: Dangerous, creepy, unwholesome, for sad loner types with ruined lives Addicting: Fun, cool, probably popular with all your friends at parties -CEOs, apparently
I spent a couple of years addicted to Star Trek Fleet Command. The drive to try to progress lead to the game consuming every piece of free time i had. The social side helped smooth over some of the cracks, but also helped to glue me to the game, couldn't slow down or I'd be letting my alliance down.
Survivors is *replayable*. You want that next run because you’ll enjoy it as much as the last. Addictive games are the “live services” that take more with every hit and never provide the original high.
Negative review with 0.1 to 2 hours: "you didn't play enough" Negative review with 2-10 hours: "you stopped just before it got good." Negative review with a lot of hours: "why'd you keep playing, lol" Every negative review can be discounted by arguing against play time.
@@BarkleyBCooltimes Oh yeah. And then on the other hand, we have people who are like... "Game's buggy as hell lol, can barely play it, gave up after about four hours of actual gameplay time because it isn't fun and the story is depressing and very badly written as well. The sound is grating and the music is bad, when it's not just randomly cutting out in the middle of a section. *_Thumbs Up"_* You... you do know that there is also a thumbs _down_ option, don't you, good reviewer? You _are_ allowed to use that! You don't owe terrible broken games a thumbs up just for the sake of, I don't know... being a sport, or something? Your reviews are helping to inform others, so maybe don't be overly charitable to the very worst (or scammiest) games you've played?
@@AdumbroDeussunk cost fallacy is also a thing, i often find myself playing games long past when i stop having fun simply because i’ve sunk a large amount of time and/or money into it
There should be a certain logic to taking high play time negative reviews _more_ seriously; shouldn't they have a better chance of knowing what they're talking about??
What you have experience is what is called: Time Wasting! This is where a online game, wastes you time because you want a thing. Can you find Time Wasting in offline games, sure, but never at the same level. After all, the longer you play, the more likely it becomes a habit, & habits are great for retention. Vampire Saviors barely does this, getting the thing is rarely hard &/or time consuming. You play, it ends & you can start over. Maibe you got the thing, or not.
hell, VS is so anti-time-wasting, it literally gives you cheat codes for almost every unlockable, and presents them as a normal game feature instead of an exploit. because they'd rather you *want* to play than to feel forced to play to get the things you want.
Your breakdown of the faction points made me remember why I stopped playing Warframe a few years back. It broke my heart to see them go down that route and I had to just stop playing.
Just use the phrase "Delightfully engaging", or whatever adjective works before "engaging", because that's more accurate in the context of a game review than saying that it's addictive.
Damn I'd never really considered the semantics of "addictiveness" in gaming discourse. (I'm a linguist so this premise is absolutely my jimmy jam). For a while I was hooked on this fun little game called Luck Be A Landlord. (You kill your landlord! Check it out!) It's a slot machine building game (kinda deckbuildy) and it's got that "just one more run" moreishness. But crucially, Luck Be A Landlord has no actual gambling or microtransactions or stuff that made me feel manipulated (e.g. it has clear, discrete levels and a final win objective - contrast that with the unending "number go up" levelling of MMOs). Thank god for steph
Here's the kicker: I've played this game a lot when it released on PC, and I disagree with Stephanie on one thing : the combat isn't good either. It's the most basic, repetitive shit with almost no customization or interesting mechanics whatsoever. It's another in an increasingly long line of simplistic gameplay systems meant to appeal to the lowest common denominator, since that's where the money is. And it's STILL balanced horribly, because of course.
@@roachybill Somewhat debatable, but if we were to consider them both exactly the same, we would certainly be missing out on a vast stretch of nuance and dramatically different situations.
@@roachybill So if I habitually do drugs because I enjoy them, it's not a drug addiction? If I habitually gamble on slots because I enjoy it, it's not a gambling addiction?
Addictiveness in the bad way is why I can't play Civilization. I enjoy it at first, but I will be entirely unable to stop playing -- it'll be 20 hours later and being awake will hurt and I still will have trouble setting it down. I'll actively be having a bad time and still unable to make myself stop.
I really hope Steph making this video was the last push they needed to just rip the bandaid and uninstall the game. I've had similar experiences like this game and it's giving yourself that push to uninstall that normally does the most good because of the barrier to playing it, is installing it again, that sometimes it's the barrier that will stop you from getting stuck in it again.
Vampire Survivors is probably the best game I played in the last few years. And now they are adding Castlevania content. They really know how to keep me hooked.
Playing Metaphor ReFantazio and that addictive. But it has a hold on me because of good RPG gameplay, deep and complex characters, a politicly charged story with twist and turns, it got me addictive because it being good and not a mind numbing loop like most service game provide.
That's why I think when people mention they can't stop playing BOTW or TOTK I don't see it in a good way. We became great in making people addicted, it's not something special. Look at the social media and how we know exactly how to make people scroll indefinitely. I miss when I finished a Zelda dungeon and the only thing I wanted next is putting my controllers down and call it a day.
Idunno. I can't stop playing BotW because I still want to look at the beautiful world and talk to the fun people. I think a good contrast to this would be Skyrim, where similar motivations keep people going back but.... Bethesda constantly releasing the game, and all its other bullshit since has given the love for Skyrim's world a huge side of regret and just fuckin plain exhaustion. BotW and TotK have sustained goodwill because.... when Nintendo wanted to engage people anew in that world, they actually made it a fresh experience instead of just releasing the same game.
19:37 The little fees on crafting and fast travel also give devs the ability to somewhat regulate the game's economy. If people can hoard wealth with no consequence you end up with inflation and value distortion. Forcing players to slowly spend their resources as part of the gameplay loop helps give the resources actual meaning instead of just becoming a meaningless high score. Is it the best solution? Maybe not. But I think there is at least one good reason for it.
ayyyy, you didn't leave in the rest of the gag after you went to the brb screen! you had impeccable comedic timing. i've only seen your twitch streams once or twice, but i randomly tuned in just moments before you got that plague doctor mask lmao
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Why would the algorithm about driving people to longer and longer watch times not want people discussing addiction?🤔
I feel like that's an odd dichotomy, considering that many social media platforms, including UA-cam, also push for ~minute long runtimes. Both likely go toward the same goal, I've just never heard someone really call out the longform end of it.
I just want to say Steph's video has perfectly mirrored how I feel about the excessive normalization of monetary gacha games like Genshin Impact or the other trash made by MiHoYo and the community's rabid insistence to blame the victim for getting addicted to it financially and openly making jokes about how "funny" the addiction to gaming is. We're still at a point societally where we refuse to take gacha addiction seriously despite it being a life-ruining thing for many, and we only have seen it be normalized and victim-blaming because most people aren't pulled in by the psychological draw of the dopamine hit. My father is literally dead because of his alcohol addiction, but apparently we don't take it seriously because of gacha? It's why Genshin and other games of its ilk has quickly crawled its way up my shit-list and I wouldn't complain if we normalized shaming people for defending the game mechanically; it's harmful and psychologically predatory, and that's _before_ getting into how the sausage is made with China being a genocidal authoritarian nation and the blatant racism/colorism demonstrated by the devs.
Stop defending bad and exploitative behavior. Stop defending addiction. Games shouldn't be that, they should be fun and an escape. By making addiction something to be seen as positive, we only ensure more exploitation and abuse happens due to it as well.
Why, indeed. 🤔
Here's the thing if you can delete the game data halfway through and still wanna play, then it's not really addictive. If you can delete it halfway through and then you're like. Yeah, I'm not going back to that. I'm just gonna go on to something else cause I'm not gonna waste all that time, energy and effort. Because it's just such a slow and long ride to just get to wherever that was, I was halfway through and then to just yeah, you know what? And that's the problem, a lot of games you know Hades is another example. Yes, if you had a lot of those tools at your disposal from the beginning, you would probably take a couple of times to get through it, but you literally have to complete the game multiple times to get the ending which means you comes down to luck and stuff, which why not just let players have access to most of that stuff from the start and the truth is. Most games are not necessarily even difficult. And you're not getting better either. The only thing that's happening like in Elden. Ring is you're slowly getting higher and higher stats. And it's like the better play. You are the sooner you can do whatever, but if you're not a good player. You're gonna be like one of the 99% of people that doesn't actually complete Elden. Ring, I don't know this b******* of how so many other people then, but without looking at a guide. No one's completing it like it's very artificial. It's all artificial they. Say it's difficult, but the reality is most of the difficulty is artificial it's. Basically a slow grind gate. Keep and unless you stick-at-it. For many, many hours you're never gonna complete it. And it's not even about necessarily even getting good, because you're gonna be very good and like I said, just get one shot. Oh, I'm sorry. Did your frame rate stutter for seconds too bad. That 3 and a 1/2 half hour grind of a battle that you just did pretty much flawlessly. No longer counts because you got one shotted. You have to attempt the boss again. I'm like, are you kidding me? I'm like back in the day. That would be like ninja guide and run flawless. Wait, but at least that game is like if you did it flawlessly, you could complete it relatively fast. With this stuff, it's like you you even if you do it flawlessly. No, it's gonna take you forever for everything. Unless of course, you spend the other forever trying to get like, I said, up to level I mean it's just all these games. Most of them suck the the last good game. I played in all honesty out of my mind that. Was just fun. I had a great time. I paid $70 for and when it was done I was done and still go back to play Now And Then is armored core.
That's the one I go back to. That's the one I enjoy the most in my memory. It's not long, it's not drawn out any longer than it needs to be. There's tons emissions. It sure as hell is a challenge, especially the first. Time through, but once you get all the weapons and stuff. Man, and you get a good build. You can just crush them and if you know what you're doing. Yeah. You can get the right parts and you can really just f*** up a lot of bosses from early game as long as you understand the mechanics, right?
I'm like once you figure it out. The bosses are a lot easier. And you don't have to spend as long fighting them. If you want a bigger challenge, you can handicap yourself a little bit or if you want to just try the mission in a certain type of Meck, you know, the challenges you can self impose. If you want to get more out of the game, you know, you could try to get the s ranks and the perfect but you don't need to in order to complete the game. So it's like it's not an insane amount of filler. You're not sitting there like in some games. And I'm just gonna say this like God of war. I looked at it and it's just like all this traveling time. I'm like the original games. You just went from one puzzle to 1 action to the next. Sure. It's a story game and II get all that but. That's what drew me to God of war. Initially, they changed it. It's not the same game that I initially would have bought. Devil may cry a lot of action. But then what happened? They got this character in that character and it's like an incoherent game, so that's why devil may cry 3 is still the best out of them because you had one character for 20 missions that you enjoyed and loved. VS like 3 that you get like a couple of missions in each. Then you can f*** right off so. If you have a particular favorite well, you're only gonna enjoy them for a very small portion of game sucks. I'm just like it's just games. Do suck overall in general. Even the ones you pay for that don't have any more micro. Transactions still suck. I mean, look at Black Ops zombies only now are they planning to do like a guided f****** thing. After how many games they're finally saying Hey, do you wanna play along the story and challenge the boss? Here's how you can do it ill. Ciguite kind of thing, which is literally what you would just call a f****** game literally every other game does this. They're not making you do really obscure a** S*** to just find the boss and then be able to complete it. So it's like about f****** time like I don't care what the guy's original intention. It's like okay, fine, you know, people figure it out, and it's like no, no, no one should have to. Be get a doctoral on cracking game codes. And you know, be a cryptologist in order to figure out. Oh Hey, if you shoot this little thing over here, it'll give you a wonder weapon that you can use for free or if you go do all this obscure a** s*** in this particular order and this particular manner. Then oh yeah. Guess what? You get to fight this cool secret boss. It's like if that's for you. That's fine in it, but it's like to have the expectation of players to be able to figure all that out and do all that when it is just obscure and random, and just something that would only really happen by pure coincidence and then needing like multitudes of pure coincidence to get there. Like it is something only really possible in today's age with communication. But especially not back down without actually someone being told like what to do, and having light people basically give hints to people where they're doing that and again, you know how many people are gonna see that and be able to figure it out. Who do see it who are looking or notice? So it's like it's absolutely absurd like it is. Video gaming is a cult almost in itself now and needs a s*** ton of criticism. I play warframe. I have everything but keeping up with the grind is too much. Even if you pay for the platinum, you still have to do a s*** ton of grinding. To keep up and then on top of that, like I'm trying to decorate a dojo, which estimate wise to finish would take me between 1 and 3000 hours and unless I get help for my clan mates, which they'll probably help me. It's still gonna take about 3 to 5 years and it's just like By then, they'll probably close the servers. Anyway, who the hell knows and it's just like the grind's probably just gonna get worse. And it's just, it real consume your life. I mean, I have to set like okay. No more than 10 hours a week. And I'm only make an exception now because I'm helping one of my clan mates do con. Clave. And thankfully, we're almost done I think we're like only 800 K off for him. I'm done with that, but that's my point. I'm like then. I'll have a lot more time to just get caught up. And he'll help me with that and then I can just pretty much decorate while I'm waiting for the next thing. And then when I get the coupon for 75% off. I'm just gonna do that and passively. Sell stuff in the market trade chat because well. I have pretty much everything, so it's. Not too hard for me to do that. And then when I've decorated it to completion. I'm gonna. I have it set up so that way. I can get a 100 people who are also mastery. Rank like 3 or 4 who have about 10:00 extra of every resource needed. So that way I can build everything in it. And then, once it's all build, I upgraded it to moon. I can invite those 100 people. I can invite everyone on my friends list and then anyone? In the alliance who would like to just join or never did anything with their dojo. And then finally when all of that done I can just give everyone a bonus of Endo. As part of the ascension. It's a stalker themed dojo but it's gonna take a long time. It's gonna take a lot of work and I want to live my other own life I want to have a family relationship obviously I want. I got other things I do I want to do my sewing and stuff. And it's just like it literally demands your life. If I wasn't like basically a homeless veteran for years. With basically a gaming computer laptop. There's no way I could have gotten that far in warframe. People wanna be like me and it's like no, you don't. Do you want to be sexually assaulted? Do you want to be right? Do you want horrible? Horrible things happening to you. I don't think so. That is the price of mastery rank for. In warframe, pain trauma loneliness. That is the true cost of all free to play games and addictive games
Tis a mystery...
Maybe start calling 'bad' addictive games 'coercive'? That's the difference between a game that enjoys spending time with ya and a game that twists your arm to make you stay
Coercive is a great adjective for those predatory games. Games that aren't fun. To play but have you playing to play is coercive, it's coercing you to keep playing for one more thing. Its showing you a carrot that you chase because the game is designed to make you chase it even when it shouldn't be that hard
I'm stealing coercive as a term for those types of games.
Grindy as well. To some degree grind can be enjoyable, there's a whole genre of RPG for it, but when it gets bad...
@@reniesulaweyo4383 And then on top of that, you make it so the grinding gives you a slot machine token to try to upgrade your equipment!
I do agree with Steph and think that "addictive" shouldn't be used to describe good games.
So, I'm retraining in psychology at the moment. And one thing I learned this week is that the dopamine pathway is the part of your brain that makes you WANT to do a thing. It is a separate mental process to actually LIKING a thing. Just thought it was relevant to this vid
Good point!
I've noticed this with coffee drinking. I sometimes find myself really stoked, "hell yeah, I can have cup of coffee soon!" and after a few sips, I find myself wondering "I'm not really enjoying this all that much."
It's not that I dislike the taste of coffee, I find it quite neutral, but the drive to have coffee is much stronger than the drive to actually enjoy it.
Interesting, thank you! I guess that is the explanation why these games leave you drained but never satisfied and yet you keep coming back.
Sounds like the exact weakness that is being exploited here.
Thanks For This!
Yeah, its a common myth that dopamine is a reward chemical. It isn't, dopamine hits before the reward, and it makes you want to work to get the reward. In a skinner box, the dopamine doesn't hit when the reward comes, it hits when you go to pull the lever.
The issue with addictive games is actually why I don't play most MMOs, and why I ditch some games in general. Even without the paywall stuff, there are some games where their loops are just too addictive, while never being GOOD. So eventually, I drop them. Not easily, not in a way that's fun, but so I can maintain my own well-being. And it sucks that this is the world we live in.
I just want to say Steph's video has perfectly mirrored how I feel about the excessive normalization of monetary gacha games like Genshin Impact or the other trash made by MiHoYo and the community's rabid insistence to blame the victim for getting addicted to it financially and openly making jokes about how "funny" the addiction to gaming is. We're still at a point societally where we refuse to take gacha addiction seriously despite it being a life-ruining thing for many, and we only have seen it be normalized and victim-blaming because most people aren't pulled in by the psychological draw of the dopamine hit. My father is literally dead because of his alcohol addiction, but apparently we don't take it seriously because of gacha? It's why Genshin and other games of its ilk has quickly crawled its way up my shit-list and I wouldn't complain if we normalized shaming people for defending the game mechanically; it's harmful and psychologically predatory, and that's _before_ getting into how the sausage is made with China being a genocidal authoritarian nation and the blatant racism/colorism demonstrated by the devs.
Stop defending bad and exploitative behavior. Stop defending addiction. Games shouldn't be that, they should be fun and an escape. By making addiction something to be seen as positive, we only ensure more exploitation and abuse happens due to it as well.
this is how i had a r*id sh*dow l*gends phase for a few good months. I just wanted to cash in a reward from a streamer i liked to support them without direct cash, then boom, trapped in the "gameplay" loop. good thing i never spent money on the microtransaction cash (mainly bc i am broke af and VERY spiteful)
anything with a battle pass is a pass for me
@@TheAxeLordOfFireMe quitting Genshin back in 2021 was such a life changing moment for me. I suddenly had so much disposable income.
"Merger" mobile games get me bad. They're not good games but something about managing space and planning hours, days, or weeks ahead that you need to collect x amount of gems or coconuts or w/e to get combo bonuses just gets me hooked. I found one of these games that doesn't have a cash shop or ads at all, but I'm wasting hours of my life on this empty simple shit that doesn't even sound interesting to other people when I try to talk about it.
One of my first favorite games had a loading screen that said "although your character doesn't need to eat, YOU do, please take care of yourself" or something like that, reminding people to take breaks and go eat something or move around or just generally be human every so often. I try to hold games to that standard, of caring about their players, and it feels like more and more games just could not care less.
I've seen that tip and I can't for the life of me remember what that game was...
@@YumLemmingKebabsha same. Biowere game maybe from back in the day? Ugh driving me mad as I remember it too but not the game.
Baldur’s Gate 2, but I might be wrong.
@@jacopoveronese81 You are indeed correct.
@@LoveProWrestling It's been so long...
I remember reading a cracked article back in like 2010 about how World of Warcraft was addictive, and it broke it down from how the leveling and quests and everything worked, and it just... murdered my desire to ever play the game again. I'm still immensely grateful to whoever wrote that article.
I didn't really feel like I understood the idea of being addicted to a bad game until you mentioned the plague doctor mask at 11:18. I've played MMOs where on day 1 I said, "I want that helmet. I'm gonna work until I can get that helmet," and then played for months despite actively disliking the gameplay loop. Never would've called it addiction, but... but yeah, that's basically exactly how addiction works.
I'd say it's more this: You set a goal and you want to achieve that goal. The journey to that goal (now a GREAT REWARD) set for yourself doesn't matter. What matters is the feeling your mind set to expect for getting that reward. And one thing to note is that this is an "easy" goal to attain. Boring the trek may be, but you're set to do it until you finish.
I've realised the nefariously addicting part about games thanks to the daily login gimmick. While you like the game you play it daily and it doesn't seem like a big deal until it becomes a habit and when you no longer want to play the game anymore you still log in daily because habit compells you to.
Likewise. I, fortunately, have never found gambling et al to be at all appealing - hell, I'm a roleplayer/wargamer who doesn't even get excited about *rolling the dice* (to me, a dice is just a random number generator, speciality dice and such just.... Don't do anything for me.) I am also not into shooter/action RPG sort of games... (Vampire Survivors also doesn't show me any appeal.) So I was sitting here and watching JSS play and going "but why? This looks just absolutely awful and I'm not sure I'd even play it if you put a gun to my head...?" And then the plague mask and I was like "ah, yes, okay, now I can see, sort of..."
This is not to demean the very clear problem, but as someone who doesn't suffer from it, this particular instance of it needed that example to drive it home.
(On the flipside, the game I have most logged hours in Rimworld (1200+ hours...), which ironically, does have a strong RNG element. (Which, admittedly, I save-scum around if it does something I don't like...) So is that additctive...? I don't know, but I would say maybe not, since it doesn't really have much of the same sort of rewards, as such? I find I come back to it (most games only get one, maybe two playthroughs out of me) because the extensive mods make it like a new game each time, and there's always some pottering around to do. But if it is "addictive" maybe it's the most benign kind that we, as noted, don't have distinguishing nomenculture for.)
@@abadenoughdude300 FOMO. Helps keep "daily user count" up, which matters because it makes it seem more popular than it actually is.
@@AotrsCommander I think it depends on what exactly you mean by "coming back to it". There's a healthy type of "coming back" and a definitely unhealthy type. Like, I've been addicted to Warframe quite a few times, and every now and again I can't resist the urge to reinstall it and then I go months playing as a really unhealthy habit. On the other hand, I have many games I consider my comfort games-Half Life 2, for instance, is a game every now and then I come back to: I reinstall it, I finish it once again (with the time I have, instead of making time for it), I uninstall it, and that's the end of it.
This game is an example of why I don't use "addicting" as a positive term in games, I prefer "this game is engaging".
"Engaging" is the excat replacement word I was thinking of. "Compelling" is another good one because when I think of a game being "addictive" in a positive way, it's because I'm engaged with some part of it and it compels me to keep playing
I just say “it’s so much fun!”
@@Jared_42 Exactly.
My word of choice is "engrossing".
"Satisfying" is another word you can use to describe good games
When I was working at a mobile game studio, our studio director said to the designers "It's easy to make a good game. What's hard is how to make a good product." -> The subtext being "Fun is overrated. Figure out how to make people spend money." I feel the industry may have hit a flip where too few people know how to do the former and all too many know how to do the latter.
it doesn't seem like they've been doing too hot of either one lately
Its actually really hard to make a good game and much easier to turn a shitty game into a functional product? Like, that guy's statement is 'tell me you've never played a good game without telling me' levels of not true.
It makes sense that the algorithm doesn’t want people to discuss addiction
I also have a very intense personal issue with the word 'addicting'. I am so glad to hear someone else does, so thank you Stephanie, thank all the gods for you.
Drives me absolutely barmy when people use it in place of 'addictive'.
Agreed. I reckon it annoys me as much as when people use the malapropism "the proof is in the eating"
I thought I was alone in this. It's not an actual word, and I know language changes but we have the word addictive already?!
@@NoPlanHan I mean, it is a word, it's just never used as it should be.
If we play one of these predatory games, we risk addicting ourselves to it, because it is addictive.
It is a clunky word to use though, and it has an even more unpleasant brain feel when used in the wrong place.
Sorry to derail the comments but this is the first time in ages that I understood why Bruce Lee and Stan Lee was being flashed on the screen due to all words ending in ly.
Except @11:09
I was so proud when I worked it out after watching oodles of videos 😅 glad I'm not the only one
Don't be sorry. I didn't understand this and was looking for THIS comment to explain it. Thanks!
@@Retro_Activity Same
Can someone explain to me the Bruce Lee moment at 17:32? I’m not familiar with why this character is “needless”-Lee
Part of the problem is ableism, someone might as well mention. People without addiction issues going "tee hee, I'm so addicted", the same way people do with whatever other funny-ized neurodivergences that coincide with serious struggles in life, schizophrenia being another recent example.
These days, I pretty well judge a game's quality by how much *less* I play it than I wish I did. I have both motivation issues and am vulnerable to addiction, so if I play a game a lot, it probably isn't because I want to, and there are plenty of games where I make a plan to play it and then just don't because it's hard to do things.
Compelling is probably a better word to use in general rather than addictive when shooting for a positive statement.
Algorithm fed
Someone in another comment suggested coercive and that's also a great suggestion.
No, because "coercive" has a negative connotation as it implies force. "Compelling" or "engaging" are fine.
@@belias360 Oh, I misread the initial comment as an attempt to find a word for the negative connotation. My bad.
@RAHelllord definitely works well for that if a reviewer is attempting to use more precise language though
To summarise then, 'compelling' for positive and 'coercive' for negative...though it may be too much to hope that we can collectively stop using the word 'addictive' (or effing 'addicting') with videogames.
an addictive game I appreciate is balatro. My first few weeks of it, I genuinely was sucked in (and thankful that it doesn't ask for real money). But after I broke through the easiest and middest-difficulty decks and challenges and really got to the meat of it, losing a game does act as an effective "out" for me. I play a couple of runs, get crushed, return to the game in a day or two when my spirit is restored. I'm now microdosing balatro, is what I'm saying
Fuck Wheel of Fortune...
Nope!
My brother got sucked into Balatro, so much so the bgm is burned into my head. I feel compelled to ask "How can solitaire be this entertaining?" And I refuse to play it for fear of an aswer 😰 /hj
@@Jared_42 Well, for one thing, it's poker, not solitaire, lol.
@@THENAMEISQUICKMAN But it really isn't? Sure, it uses poker hands for it's scoring structure, but that's where the resemblance ends. The core of poker is betting, and there's zero of in Balatro.
I was going to say this too! I've introduced it to two different people, one who isn't even a gamer, and neither can put it down. It manages to be addictive while being actually really good.
thank you so much for talking about this, i'm a recovering addict and there are SO MANY games i can't play because they pray on the same unhealthy urges and patterns of behaviour that have caused me so much trouble, and it can get out of hand quickly. seeing this promoted as a selling point makes me very uncomfortable, and is sadly very telling about where the games industry is as a whole.
One of the best videos you've done in a while. Proper old school, healthy content for making gamers more mindful.
I also liked the more chilled, serious (at times lol) tone to it.
Perhaps we need to he using more words like "compelling" or "engrossing". Those are usually used positively with TV shows and movies, and definitely feel like they have more positive connotations than "addictive"
P.S. I also dislike the word "addicting" compared to "addictive"
Addiction is when a compulsive behavior is destructive to one's self. Habitual is when a compulsive behavior has positive impacts on one's life. So might be a good way for you to distinguish a good and bad "addiction"
I'd say habitual is a fairly neutral term. You could exercise habitually or smoke habitually. Just means something you do regularly without really thinking about why. Though I understand the distinction you're trying to make a good word for 'thing done compulsively to no ill effect' doesn't spring to mind. Just addictive behavior (damaging) and habitual behavior (neutral)
Edit: Habitual smoker is a good example. Many people arn't really 'that' addicted to cigarettes but because of that slight buzz will just light up whenever they can rather than when they really want one, and once they break that pattern of behavior don't really have psychical or psychological cravings.
No, not really. I cant be arsed explaining. Go look at the definitions of the words you threw in.
watching your footage, reminds me of how many games substitute overhead for content. Like my old painful days of being a wow raider, you do stuff you don't want to do to, to prep for things you do want to do, that might fail and just move you to the next prep cycle.
its not a gameplay loop, its a pure grind loop.
On the flip side, some people really enjoy the planning phase of something. As it's an MMO, having a complex multidiscipline progression is a compelling idea for those who want to work in groups.
Once the complex system is able to be productized however, it just becomes a grind as much as a job is a grind.
I relate to the struggle of not dropping a game when you absolutely should.
I remember a couple years ago, that one blocky styled Pokemon game that released for mobile and switch, whatever it's name was. I started it, hoping it might kind of be like the rumble games I liked. I played it A LOT for a few days, kept grinding and trying to get better things, damn near spent money on it, before one moment it randomly hit me.
"I'm not having fun."
I didn't enjoy ANY of the time I was spending on the game. But it got me hooked for just long enough to make me feel invested, make me feel like I HAD to keep it up. It was certainly addictive, but that sure as hell wasn't a good thing. I'm glad I got myself to drop it before I spent any money on it.
"I'm not having fun" was my epiphany too from separating myself from these additive games.
Pokémon Quest! That game was TERRIBLE, and I was so tempted to buy the starter pack. Had a similar experience to you overall.
You know what's fun? Watching a Stephanie Sterling video twice. First for the sharp wit and message. 2nd for counting "Lee's".
Okay, the "thoroughly" pun was absolute peak. Kudos.
Thoroughly... Thoreau-Lee... I get it! =D
Ohhhhhhh!!!!!
It is why i stopped playing games that have "Daily quests" or whatever garbage they call it - they are trying to make you addicted and create a habbit, instead of playing just for the enjoyment of the game.
I realised how this works when it took me half a year to uninstall a game I long stopped playing for real, just doing my daily dose of dailies. I realised things about myself that time too.
@@abadenoughdude300 Glad to hear you were able to get out of it ! Hopefully you are doing better now .
I first felt that way with Pokemon games of all things (The Honey Trees in Diamond are the ones that particularly comes to mind. You need to check out every 6 hours to see if you got something.)
At some point, I'm realizing it's a chore, a full time job, and I'm just doing it out of habits, and not for any kind of enjoyment and I just stop.
It's a terrible feeling, so I'll avoid games that promise to make me feel that way.
This week's best Lee: Thoreau-Lee.
We should probably revive the word "compelling" for this. When a game is good-addictive it compels you to try more with its quality, you feel genuinely engaged with the loop or the story or the art or the exploration and think that you want to see a little bit more before you stop.
Addictive is, as J.Steph said, when a game preys on you to keep you going. You're not engaged so much as you are obsessed.
I have 2400 hours in the first ARK game.
Its not a good game, it just sets of the dopamine addiction in my brain. Ive gotten abstinence symptoms from it at one point.
Those 2400 hour's arent a flex. They are almost a cry for help
Try about 7k hours, but I quit playing the remaster, it's beyond shockingly broken
I just want to say Steph's video has perfectly mirrored how I feel about the excessive normalization of monetary gacha games like Genshin Impact or the other trash made by MiHoYo and the community's rabid insistence to blame the victim for getting addicted to it financially and openly making jokes about how "funny" the addiction to gaming is. We're still at a point societally where we refuse to take gacha addiction seriously despite it being a life-ruining thing for many, and we only have seen it be normalized and victim-blaming because most people aren't pulled in by the psychological draw of the dopamine hit. My father is literally dead because of his alcohol addiction, but apparently we don't take it seriously because of gacha? It's why Genshin and other games of its ilk has quickly crawled its way up my shit-list and I wouldn't complain if we normalized shaming people for defending the game mechanically; it's harmful and psychologically predatory, and that's _before_ getting into how the sausage is made with China being a genocidal authoritarian nation and the blatant racism/colorism demonstrated by the devs.
Stop defending bad and exploitative behavior. Stop defending addiction. Games shouldn't be that, they should be fun and an escape. By making addiction something to be seen as positive, we only ensure more exploitation and abuse happens due to it as well.
It's okay to have spent time poorly, as long as you make the decision not to keep doing it. We all learn by our mistakes, and some take longer to learn from. Best of luck quitting the habit and finding a more diverse range of games to enjoy on more levels.
"a cry for help" is the most accurate phrase to describe my 2,000+ hours in Dead by Daylight
I've only got 300 hours but I'm grateful I can say it was fun despite at least 1/5th of the time being spent looking at the loading screen because I was really into it when I had my laptop and only played it for a bit after I got a much better PC
I'm in recovery for opioid addiction. I'll say when I was clean but playing Dota 2 I was as obsessed with my MMR as I had been with any drugs. I quit playing. Straight up addicted. I'd play for like 18 hours, flip out any time I lost significant MMR and my entire mood was dictated by a video game and 9 strangers who just so happened to be playing the same game as I was.
Had to quit playing ranked. If I play now its ONLY versus bots.
It was straight up as addictive and as stimulating to my reward pathways as opioids had been with no exaggeration.
13:53 going the extra mile to call him Bruce Lee the Science G to make the rhyme is pure gold
I've been feeling this so much lately.
I don't have a tendency towards addiction (thankfully) but I've been noticing it more and more in mobile games. I'll try to pick up a new game and after a few days with it I'll ask myself "am I playing this game because I enjoy it or because it feels like a chore that needs doing?"
That's really the best way I can describe intentionally "addictive" games if they don't sink their hooks into you: they're designed to be a chore.
we could call the good addictive 'compelling'. it has 'come' in it. you can be compelled, also come pilled.
ive never been a wrestling person, but i love the wrestling clips at the beginning. its so clear how much fun you and the other wrestlers are having, and i enjoy it by proxy :)
I feel like calling these bad-addictive games out explicitly as Skinner boxes is the way to go.
Maybe "Skinnerboxddictive"? We can workshop.
*gamers:* omg this game is so addictive!
*what they mean:* this game was really enjoyable and i felt like i couldn't put it down! :D
*corpos:* omg this game is so addictive
*what they mean:* this game has been designed to be addictive not enjoyable and you can't put it down >:)
I’m so glad my video game ADHD prevents me from getting addicted to any one title…. I wish it would let me stay invested enough for me to at least finish a game before wanting to hop into a different one, but hey, at least I won’t waste time when I’m actively miserable.
Don't multi task. Stop giving other things your dopamine. Stay off social media. Dedicate time to gaming as a priority. If you truly want to start beating games
from one gaming ADHDr to another; damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I trained myself to actually finish games and ignore urges to play something else until I was finished.
Now I am unable to drop games even after I decide I don't like them, best I can do is gaslight myself into lowering my standards for what I should do aside of the bare minimum to reach the credits roll.
@@OpXarxa In other words, truly a double-edged sword at its finest.
I got Addicted to Fire Emblem Heroes, a gacha game based on a special interest franchise of mine, I played it every day since launch, even when my phone broke and i could only see a quarter of my screen, till it's 7th year anniversary where the naggling feeling of being annoyed at the game, the realisation I had spent about 3000-4000£ on the game compiled with a pointless fan poll which got a character which i didn't like to win till my brain suddenly clicked and uninstalled it, about a year later I reinstalled it, played it for 2 weeks and then uninstalled it again without spending anything, and every now and then I STILL get my brain pulled back. I have had NIGHTMARES about this game where I'm stuck trying to pull whatever new character they released for hours, multiple times. Addiction hunting games have preyed on me so much that now I struggle to play more than 2-3 hours in most games if they don't make me addicted, even if I like the game, it's awful.
As somebody who's a diehard Fire Emblem fan (Fates and Tellius are two of some of my favorite games of all time, I love them as much as Steph loves Silent Hill 2 and Bloodborne), I get you. I played it at launch, and the I completely left the game after lucking out and getting a five-star Hinoka after getting Arthur (one of my favorite FE characters) and Odin, and realizing... this isn't fun. At all. The appeal of FE to me is to be able to interact and empathize with the characters I adore as people, and have them be the heroes of that story and run. Their lives and their stories, and whether they live or die. So to have the inability to choose my favorite characters except through a literal slot machine? I think that killed a lot of the fun of it for me, so I just... quit. At this point, the only value Heroes has for me is the art and the fact it made FE as a verse absolutely cracked in power-scaling.
And the thing that pisses me off the most, to paraphrase from my other comments? The excuses:
"I just want to say Steph's video has perfectly mirrored how I feel about the excessive normalization of monetary gacha games like Genshin Impact or the other trash made by MiHoYo and the community's rabid insistence to blame the victim for getting addicted to it financially and openly making jokes about how "funny" the addiction to gaming is. We're still at a point societally where we refuse to take gacha addiction seriously despite it being a life-ruining thing for many, and we only have seen it be normalized and victim-blaming because most people aren't pulled in by the psychological draw of the dopamine hit. My father is literally dead because of his alcohol addiction, but apparently we don't take it seriously because of gacha? It's why Genshin and other games of its ilk has quickly crawled its way up my shit-list and I wouldn't complain if we normalized shaming people for defending the game mechanically; it's harmful and psychologically predatory, and that's _before_ getting into how the sausage is made with China being a genocidal authoritarian nation and the blatant racism/colorism demonstrated by the devs.
Stop defending bad and exploitative behavior. Stop defending addiction. Games shouldn't be that, they should be fun and an escape. By making addiction something to be seen as positive, we only ensure more exploitation and abuse happens due to it as well."
I've played FEH since launch, and suddenly stopped just about a year ago (Last units I remember pulling were Brave M!Robin, Veyle and Halloween Timerra) because it just kinda clicked for me that I wasn't having fun anymore, and having to keep up with it every day was tiring. The constant powercreep AND featurecreep was and still is excessive, where every new skill and weapon has whole paragraphs of text to explain effects, and new unit types are introduced every few months.
I still keep up with their updates, watching their banner announcements 'cause I like the art and enjoy seeing what new units get added to the game, but as far as story goes, I mentally checked out of book 7 due to confusion and haven't even touched Book 8. Only mustered up the will to uninstall a couple weeks ago since it was just collecting dust on my phone.
There's a reason I never touched it, or the like, despite being a Fire Emblem fan.
I don't trust myself enough. It's designed to make me pay more than usual, and I have enough experience to know I'll bite. Because the only way to engage (pun acknowledged) with the game is by spending way too much money and time on it.
At this point I mostly play FEH for the story, if there are no story updates I don't play a lot unless I'm really bored
Your crocodiles on the beach reminds me of the dark ages of MMOs. I remember when Anarchy Online first introduced a quest. To get the quest, or hand it in, you would target the NPC and then chat in vicinity using keywords the NPC would recognize. You needed an online guide to know what phrases to say. Once you were done, the NPC would despawn for 5 minutes. Only 1 person at a time could be doing this. There was a literal line of people at the location all waiting their turn to get a fkn quest, but they were doing it because it was new. The reason why WoW became such a huge hit is because it learned from the MMOs that came before it, lol. It's like we've come full circle.
"…thoroughly…"
👏.👏.👏. Well done, probably my favourite one yet.
The fact that we were naive, as a society, enough to praise something for being addictive is wild
To some extent it's our physiology; humans are just that drawn to the dopamine hit.
As we're living in a consumer based society, based around purely on mass consumption of as much as possible, addiction is the ultimate goal of any company that sells anything. Buy the newest model of the phone every year or else you won't feel special anymore. Buy more junkfood to keep the economy going. Just watch another video on youtube, read another comment on shitter, make another post on facebook, etc etc.
Games, most processed food items in any supermarket or grocery store, ads, media, are all precision engineered to be as addictive as possible on purpose, and companies spend a lot of PR on it to not have it named that. Only videogames were able to get away with it. I'm curious why, though it's probably because it started out as somewhat of a counter culture where older generations called them addictive as a bad thing, so naturally that got seen as an endorsement at the time.
They aren't really. Its closer to bad wording. "Engaging" would be closer.
The little Lee-popups keep me smiling through otherwise heavy topics. Thank you very much to you all
It's probably not intentional, but admitting addiction to a game while also releasing relatively later than usual on Monday reinforces your point pretty well.
This whole video reminded me of when I still played Destiny 2, like when I spent a whole 5 days worth of free time grinding out the same goddamn lost sector for hours, just to get some minor upgrade to a weapon I liked.
...or when I would log multiple hours A NIGHT into Apex Legends just to fully level up that season's battle pass. God, I hate battle passes so much!
6:38 That "Hard-Lee surprising" and the "Boo" busted me up.
One kind of addiction is compelling. You play it because it is drawing you in to play because you want more of it.
The other is compulsive inducing. You play because the game has caused you to have an innate need to play more.
The Former is natural from a good game, the Latter is derivative of a manipulatively designed game.
I'm so glad I completely burned myself out on MMOs years ago. Kinda sad that that was the only way to get over my own addiction though.
It's worth having an idea on how "addictive" entered the gaming space with such positive connotations: the gaming industry, ever since their conception, has always been closer to the gambling industry than we normally think
Thank you. I hate hearing "addictive" as a form of praise. There are particular reviewers who use it a LOT. Can't wait for the next overused adjective to push it out.
Seems telling, though. Because hell yeah, that's what some of them are obviously going for.
Dear Zilla, so far Notorious Lee is my favorite. You're making me laugh. Thanks.
As a long-time MMO player, this is why I don't recommend MMOs to others. I've learned to manage my time so I can play an MMO while still having a healthy work/life balance, but I know a lot of people can't do that for various reasons, and I don't want to be responsible for inflicting an addiction on anyone.
A runescape player I know once told me "it's a great game but I would never recommend it to anybody". I found that self-aware cognitive dissonance so strange.
I'm glad if you manage your playtime and have fun tho - not trying to shame or anything
I'm late to it but the various Lee visual gags are just brilliant. Potential-Lee really got me xD.
So glad to still have these weekly glances at your thoughts on facets of the games industry.
Simp-Lee is probably my favorite Lee so far, especially since he's rightfully simping for Stephanie. 🎩
As someone who has spent 12 years in recovery communities for achohal and depression addiction, This is a fantastic point you are making about the verbiage we use when taking about these "broad issues". I just want to say with all due respect, addiction within recovery communities is defined by consequences, We as humans are addicted to TONS of stuff we deem socially acceptable Suger/cofffee/sex/movies/video games but clinical addiction is defended by consequences IE, I drove my car though a back yard to play NEW WORLD sooner or somthing IDK hahaha
thanks for the content man, I've been watching for years and you always bring that source! be well my dude!
Ah, that gave me painful flashbacks to my thankfully brief "Raid: Shadow Legends" days.
Jeff Minter (Yes I'm going there again, deal with it) speaks of reaching a "flow state" in your gameplay, which may be a very different thing to addiction, more like a Trance than a "Just one more go". But then, Jeff Minter designs actual complete Games, and sells them for a decent price, and can still afford a decent-sized farmhouse in Wales, with enough paddock for his flock of sheep and other animals!
Oh well. Thank Jeff Minter for Commander Sterling, even if they have turned heel again in the Rasslin'.
I'm so pleased to hear you say "addictive" rather than "addicting" which bugs the absolute shit out of me.
Also - agree with your point re: addictive being a positive. I mean - is heroin great? I hear that's pretty additive :')
This actually made me reevaluate how I use some of my language. Because I've referred to myself as being addicted to a number of games- like Monster Hunter, or something, but I've never actually shown addictive qualities while playing those games.
I've not repeatedly skipped work, ruined relationships, or neglected my health or hygiene simply because of a video game. It's never happened. There have been any number of times that I've turned a game off and thought about playing them when I get off of work or while on the drive home, or something, or have had the music play in my head while I do other things like laundry or dishes, but I've never actually treated anything that I've called addictive... as addictive. It's been blatant hyperbole on my part for no real benefit.
I think, instead, I'll use the terms like, "The hunting and crafting loop in Monster Hunter is *engrossing*" rather than saying addictive.
Bruce at Walden Pond was a new high for the Lee bit. I'm floored.
Hah, leaving the brief awkward gap after the closing footage when Steph couldn't stop talking was a good gag!
I found myself thinking about addiction ever since I played Azur Lane, immediately followed by Touhou 16. I like the core idea behind Azur Lane, being a bit of an erogame with a character collecting mechanic, and being a Shoot Em' Up, it's a good combination. But the monetization means that it mostly focuses on the character collecting parts, not the Shmup or erogame parts, which are what interest me the most, so I ended up dropping it pretty quick. After that, I played Touhou 16, my first game in the series, which is also a SHMUP, with lots of girls, but no erogame or collecting aspects. It is much more fun, but due to it's core gameplay loop, it gives a good "out" every 5-50 minutes, with either the player running out of continues, or beating the game, and the only thing that links subsequent runs is being more skilled and having more level knowledge. It's anti-addictive, and taught me that good games are not always ones I can play for hours at a time.
The consistent undercurrent that excessive monetization of anything is Bad, Actually in Touhou (it's the core theme, along with specific mockery of trading card games, gacha games, and NFTs, of Unconnected Marketeers, and seems to be an underlying idea of several other games and two and a half of the older comics) just makes this comparison even better.
By gawd Sterling got a steel dress!
There's addictive as in so good that you don't want to stop and there's addictive as in so addicting that you can't stop. Since games can be both we really shouldn't be using the former for it yeah.
Taken from other comments here there's the positive "addictive - compelling", and negative "addictive - coercing"
god I love that silly little dance plugging the merch
The RIGHT way to rep that merch!
I do, too. But I'm trying to figure out who's dancing. Maybe Steph's husband? I don't think JSS has that zipper tattoo below her elbow.
@@tegandetermann3299 thd panda head suggests its ZmannZilla, the editor.
Me too!
I also enjoy it a lot for probably the same reasons (it's good and fun and even a little bit cute??), but also because something i havent said anyone say; the Persona 3 Portable music it uses, as someone who's a fan of the Persona series!!
I am *so* grateful for my specific neurospice. I do not have standard addiction outside of hyperfocus. To me, any form of gambling just... feels like the worst result. A waste of time and money. Vampire survivors chests lighting up and giving multiple rewards does not fill me with glee. The more addictive elements a game tries to include, the more exhausted they make me. I have chronic health issues and have to wrestle executive dysfunction to start up a game when I'm stressed and need to unwind in one. (You can imagine, as I'm in the States, neurospicy and queer... I'm not having a great time right now. At least there's a low barrier to "complain on internet".)
At some point, I just wind up burnt out, and these days, I'm more and more inclined to just let go at the first brush of that.
Upside, definitely get the little dopamine bursts when something is surprisingly good. Metaphor re Fantazio is wonderful. Also extremely on-the-nose. But still quite smartly written. Ran into a cutscene between some of the church types and obviously behind closed doors, they're all about power, not religion. The right-hand bloke makes a suggestion about how the powers that be might manipulate the contest to the church's benefit and "afterwards, I would rather like a Title." And it strikes me that his plan is competent. Another character drops a bit of foreshadowing into it, which makes me excited to see how they're going to deliver on this.
They're characters that make sense. The competent plan from your direct rival establishes that he's competent. That there's a reason he has his job. And that he's not nakedly evil, just because he's not good.
THAT... that is what I want to be hooked by. Hope. Hope that this will be worth beating up my inner demons and navigating a world. Hope for better days.
Addiction... just promises more of the same, only less and less fun.
So there's actually reasons why New World has things like per town storage, fast travel restrictions, and fees on using work stations and marketplace. Guilds can own towns, and those guilds control what upgrades are built inside them. They also collect tax from people who live in that town, and the amount of money spent is determined by the guild that owns it. To mitigate this, you can grind out the areas you establish as a home base to lower those costs, however the point of the mechanic is to get every player to care about the towns and the guilds that run them. The idea is that if you hate the guild running your town because they make shit choices and scalp you out of money in taxes, you can help another guild take over. This can happen through wars which allow guilds who might not have the players needed to fill their lobby to invite other players to help. On top of that, settlements are linked based on which faction controls them. So if 2 settlements are owned by your faction, you can freely move resources between them. It's meant to all force you to settle into a town and engage in the in game politics to get bonuses for crafting and what else.
Now through a series of other poorly designed mechanism this is all shit anyway, but the fees and fast travel restrictions do serve a purpose.
Yeah, Sterling is absolutely correct on the broader point and about New World as an exploitative poor quality game, but there are good reasons in an MMO to tax player trade and player crafting by small amounts. Essentially, because you have monsters infinitely adding gold and resources into the player economy, you need sinks to remove those things from the economy as well, otherwise you end up with out of control inflation (which the original game failed at _spectacularly_ due to duping bugs and other problems).
Of course- as Stephanie points out, this could have just been an action game instead of an MMO. And even beyond that, the game definitely is designed to be addicting both their intentional and unintentional design choices.
Addictive: Dangerous, creepy, unwholesome, for sad loner types with ruined lives
Addicting: Fun, cool, probably popular with all your friends at parties
-CEOs, apparently
I have a pretty addictive personality and appreciate the warning about this MMO. I will be avoiding it like the plague
I spent a couple of years addicted to Star Trek Fleet Command. The drive to try to progress lead to the game consuming every piece of free time i had. The social side helped smooth over some of the cracks, but also helped to glue me to the game, couldn't slow down or I'd be letting my alliance down.
Survivors is *replayable*. You want that next run because you’ll enjoy it as much as the last. Addictive games are the “live services” that take more with every hit and never provide the original high.
New drinking game: take a shot every time Bruce Lee pops up with a 'ly' suffix pun😂
The growing array of "Lee" visual puns is quite incredible! 😂
The "Lee"s were on point with this video. The "Thoroughly" caught me off guard and gave me a good laugh
I love it when comments under Steam reviews say something like "Negative review but 200+ hours played 🤡"
That is exactly what the video is about, not enjoying the game but being addicted to it.
Negative review with 0.1 to 2 hours: "you didn't play enough"
Negative review with 2-10 hours: "you stopped just before it got good."
Negative review with a lot of hours: "why'd you keep playing, lol"
Every negative review can be discounted by arguing against play time.
@@BarkleyBCooltimes Oh yeah. And then on the other hand, we have people who are like... "Game's buggy as hell lol, can barely play it, gave up after about four hours of actual gameplay time because it isn't fun and the story is depressing and very badly written as well. The sound is grating and the music is bad, when it's not just randomly cutting out in the middle of a section. *_Thumbs Up"_*
You... you do know that there is also a thumbs _down_ option, don't you, good reviewer? You _are_ allowed to use that! You don't owe terrible broken games a thumbs up just for the sake of, I don't know... being a sport, or something? Your reviews are helping to inform others, so maybe don't be overly charitable to the very worst (or scammiest) games you've played?
@@AdumbroDeussunk cost fallacy is also a thing, i often find myself playing games long past when i stop having fun simply because i’ve sunk a large amount of time and/or money into it
There should be a certain logic to taking high play time negative reviews _more_ seriously; shouldn't they have a better chance of knowing what they're talking about??
What you have experience is what is called: Time Wasting! This is where a online game, wastes you time because you want a thing. Can you find Time Wasting in offline games, sure, but never at the same level. After all, the longer you play, the more likely it becomes a habit, & habits are great for retention.
Vampire Saviors barely does this, getting the thing is rarely hard &/or time consuming. You play, it ends & you can start over. Maibe you got the thing, or not.
hell, VS is so anti-time-wasting, it literally gives you cheat codes for almost every unlockable, and presents them as a normal game feature instead of an exploit. because they'd rather you *want* to play than to feel forced to play to get the things you want.
not every addictive game is good but all good games are addictive.
Your breakdown of the faction points made me remember why I stopped playing Warframe a few years back. It broke my heart to see them go down that route and I had to just stop playing.
This video didn't come up on my feed, nor was I notified. I only found your video, Stephanie, because I saw your tweet!
Ironically, while the weapon sounds are awful, NW:A has the best "pickaxe hitting stone" sound ever
The lee bit was completely worth it, well done.
always fun to see all the different Lees that come up.
5:52 in-hair ent Lee
By gods he's done it again. Zman Zilla forever.
Just use the phrase "Delightfully engaging", or whatever adjective works before "engaging", because that's more accurate in the context of a game review than saying that it's addictive.
Damn I'd never really considered the semantics of "addictiveness" in gaming discourse. (I'm a linguist so this premise is absolutely my jimmy jam).
For a while I was hooked on this fun little game called Luck Be A Landlord. (You kill your landlord! Check it out!) It's a slot machine building game (kinda deckbuildy) and it's got that "just one more run" moreishness. But crucially, Luck Be A Landlord has no actual gambling or microtransactions or stuff that made me feel manipulated (e.g. it has clear, discrete levels and a final win objective - contrast that with the unending "number go up" levelling of MMOs).
Thank god for steph
Here's the kicker: I've played this game a lot when it released on PC, and I disagree with Stephanie on one thing : the combat isn't good either. It's the most basic, repetitive shit with almost no customization or interesting mechanics whatsoever. It's another in an increasingly long line of simplistic gameplay systems meant to appeal to the lowest common denominator, since that's where the money is. And it's STILL balanced horribly, because of course.
"Addicting" is a perfectly good word! Here's an example of how to use it: "Chuck smokes dope six times a day. Chuck is addicting himself to dope."
I watch the Jimquisition every week. Is that not an addiction?
No. Its a blessing
@@roachybill Somewhat debatable, but if we were to consider them both exactly the same, we would certainly be missing out on a vast stretch of nuance and dramatically different situations.
@@roachybill So if I habitually do drugs because I enjoy them, it's not a drug addiction? If I habitually gamble on slots because I enjoy it, it's not a gambling addiction?
Does it interfere with your work, hygiene or social relationships? No?
Why not?
16:41 GODDAMIT MANN ZILLA. Simply. Goddammit...
You mean perfection.
Can I say that “Thoreau-Lee” was AMAZING?
Addictiveness in the bad way is why I can't play Civilization. I enjoy it at first, but I will be entirely unable to stop playing -- it'll be 20 hours later and being awake will hurt and I still will have trouble setting it down. I'll actively be having a bad time and still unable to make myself stop.
I really hope Steph making this video was the last push they needed to just rip the bandaid and uninstall the game.
I've had similar experiences like this game and it's giving yourself that push to uninstall that normally does the most good because of the barrier to playing it, is installing it again, that sometimes it's the barrier that will stop you from getting stuck in it again.
Vampire Survivors is probably the best game I played in the last few years. And now they are adding Castlevania content. They really know how to keep me hooked.
Playing Metaphor ReFantazio and that addictive. But it has a hold on me because of good RPG gameplay, deep and complex characters, a politicly charged story with twist and turns, it got me addictive because it being good and not a mind numbing loop like most service game provide.
It's why, despite knowing I would probably enjoy Factorio / Satisfactory, I just can't play them. I'd lose several days.
That's why I think when people mention they can't stop playing BOTW or TOTK I don't see it in a good way. We became great in making people addicted, it's not something special. Look at the social media and how we know exactly how to make people scroll indefinitely. I miss when I finished a Zelda dungeon and the only thing I wanted next is putting my controllers down and call it a day.
Idunno. I can't stop playing BotW because I still want to look at the beautiful world and talk to the fun people. I think a good contrast to this would be Skyrim, where similar motivations keep people going back but.... Bethesda constantly releasing the game, and all its other bullshit since has given the love for Skyrim's world a huge side of regret and just fuckin plain exhaustion. BotW and TotK have sustained goodwill because.... when Nintendo wanted to engage people anew in that world, they actually made it a fresh experience instead of just releasing the same game.
Z Man is killing this episode. I'm always pleased how they're able to keep up with Stephanie's banter.❤
Thank you for introducing me to Dunjungle Z. Mann Zilla. I had a blast with the demo. When I get some money I'm going get it.
It's more fun than a barrel of... well, you know. 💜🐼Z
19:37 The little fees on crafting and fast travel also give devs the ability to somewhat regulate the game's economy. If people can hoard wealth with no consequence you end up with inflation and value distortion. Forcing players to slowly spend their resources as part of the gameplay loop helps give the resources actual meaning instead of just becoming a meaningless high score.
Is it the best solution? Maybe not. But I think there is at least one good reason for it.
Saw that betrayal coming XD
It was extremely obvious.
It's wrestling. It telegraphs EVERYTHING.
@@dracorex426 *insert Extreme Bruce Lee*
ayyyy, you didn't leave in the rest of the gag after you went to the brb screen! you had impeccable comedic timing. i've only seen your twitch streams once or twice, but i randomly tuned in just moments before you got that plague doctor mask lmao
I love those Lee visual jokes