The fact that a regular ISB officer was more terrifying than a literal Inquisitor is very telling on how the villains were written for these two shows.
And it's not just the villains, it's the Empire as a whole that feels like a huge, overbearing threat in Andor. The last Star Wars movies had a planet-sized superweapon that could obliterate five planets at once, then they had a fleet of 1000 ships, each capable of nuking an entire planet with one shot. But at no point did they really _feel_ like much of a threat. They were just kind of there, then they were dealt with, and that was that. Andor, by contrast, managed to make the appearance of a single TIE fighter feel like a tense and scary moment.
@@riveraharper8166 I hope this is supposed to be sarcasm. Vader is just another clown. A clown that tickles the Fans balls so much that they are made to believe that the trash they are watching is actually good. Star Wars Fans have been ruining Star Wars for years. Not George, not Failoni, not even Disney. They just produce stuff. It's you who tell them: "Keep going. We like shit. We like Trash."
I would love to see a comparison between Kenobi and Andor’s interrogation scenes, Reva and Leia vs. Dedra and Bix. Specifically why the one in Kenobi is a joke and the one in Andor gives you genuine chills.
Truthfully I think the big problem is audience. I think the executives at Disney are conflicted with knowing their audience. Obi Wan Kenobi seemed like a show for that got dumbed down for children, whereas Andor seems like a show directed for adults (or at the very minimum young adults). I think a lot of people don't realize that they're not making content for specifically *you*, but rather making content for a wide range. It just sucks that they cut corners on shows directed for children.
@@AlaskafishStudios That also shows poor decision making on their part as the target audience of Obi Wan should've been the age group that grew up with him especially those that grew up with the prequels as they're the ones that love Ewans version the most are going to the most excited for the show.
@@AlaskafishStudios Most of the people who would care about the Obi-Wan Kenobi series were children or young adults at the time of the Prequel Trilogy-Not kids today. They wanted an Obi-Wan series as grownup, subtle, emotional, and developed, as they themselves are-We need to see that both Darth Vader and Ben Kenobi have grown into their characters. We see none of this, while Reva remains a sociopathic, stupid narcissist-Being both a boring baddie and an unconvincing anti-hero-And Leia…omg. Nothing mature, precocious, smart, brave or any of the overhyped girl power adjectives Disney spits out-Just a spoiled and poorly written child with rotten lines, and no hint of who she would become in ten years.
It didn’t hurt that the actress behind Dedra Meero was absolutely amazing. Her performance started strong and got better, and more evil, with each episode. Andor’s casting department cannot get enough credit for this perfect cast. Even the smaller roles are performed with more complexity than we’ve seen in any Star Wars story, and that includes everything.
@@AlaskafishStudios It doesn't just "seem like" it was dumbed down, it LITERALLY WAS! (Guess who) Kathleen Kennedy had it rewritten because it was reportedly "too bleak"
I didn’t hate Kenobi…. But when putting it alongside Andor it’s blown out the water. Andor is EXACTLY what I wanted from a Star Wars show. Just give me some good Thrawn stuff with Andor level writing I’ll be totally on board with Disney keeping making Star Wars shows
I kind of do because it wasted a lot of potential. I actually quite like the idea of Obi-Wan being a little bit broken after the events of everything. But it was executed so poorly that people now seem to think it is correct that you can't have a character be different than a previous portrayal. That is only one aspect of terrible execution in the show, but it was a big one that put me off early.
@@TheChosen2030 Just like your mom... Nah seriously it was boring at the beginning but I rather have no big Action scenes than whatever the fuck they did in Kenobi
Andor is the only reason I din‘t cancel my disney subscription. This show alone is worth the fee for me … while even Mando felt … just random in comparison. Now in season 3, I see some interesting new plotlines, that can make it worthwile, and on the surface-level it surpasses Andor in entertainment-value, but looking deeper, Andor is still miles ahead. But well, we‘ll see how episodes 3.4+ of Mando turn out. It has at least the pontential to tell a great (thrawn??? 😍) story.
The torturers monolog isn´t even exposition. He is telling this to Bix as part of her torture, so she starts to get scared before it even really begins
I dunno if it was intimidation. He came across as as scientist more interested in his craft than anything else. It's the nazi scientists in a different mold. Many Nazi scientists did terrible experiments in prisoners. It wasn't aimed at being evil for the scientists, they just didn't care about the lives they destroyed. Same here.
@@IshtarNike What you said is exponentially more terrifying because a curious scientist discussing the horrific outcomes of an experiment is so much worse than someone merely trying to intimidate you. It means they don't even view you as a person, you are merely a test subject. And for you to realize they have no empathy is so much scarier than the "tough guy" or "bad cop" motif.
@@IshtarNike Idk man if I was told in excruciating detail about my torturing methods by the torturer with genuine excitement and a smile on their face before actually being tortured, I'd be pretty Intimidated
I've heard most people start talking as soon as they see the implements of the interrogation. He was laying out his shiny implements in a cold calculating way. He almost seemed to delight in how clean it all would be. But what else did he do? They way the camera lingered on Bix in the ship as they left. There's more that happened.
Luthen's moral struggle was shown by the fact that he told Saw about his plan to sacrifice Kryger specifically to either be convinced to save Kryger or convince Saw to agree with the sacrifice. In the end, Saw agreed the sacrifice was necessary...by which, in his own mind, Luthern is able to share the moral burden with Saw. If he were not struggling with his own decisions, he would not have made that trip.
I think that scene had more complexity. Saw knowing meant he could close any loose ends connecting him to Kryger, but to also understand what is necessary. Maybe also to wake him from his paranoia so he could be more focused. My first impression was he wanted to be talked into saving Kryger, but Saw was the wrong contact for that.
One of my favorite underrated moments is Sergeant Mosk saying “Corporate Tactical Security is the first line of defense for the Empire” thinking he was apart of the Empire and their cause. But by the end of the season, you see Mosk just sitting and drinking after the riots. Just thinking what he just witnessed and what the “first line of defense for the Empire” really means. Mosk’s actor has said on Twitter that he wasn’t asked to come back so this is where his story ends.
I loved his character's portrayal. Such a small part, and not particularly unique, but damn he nailed the role and his chemistry with Cyril Karn was excellent. I thought Cyril was kind of wasted after episode 3, unfortunately. Hoping he comes back in a more substantial role next season.
@@master_samwise yeah, cyril was basically pointless after the first arc, the fact that we kept focusing on him and that he had a part in the finale probably means he’s being set up for a more significant role in season two.
@@master_samwise I agree on your point to his scene with the executive on not investigating to keep crime rates down, the problem is there are still viewers that misinterpret it as just being something more simple. For me he did not want anyone finding who killed those two enforcers because he held them in contempt. By implication to me, he then held Cyril doing something in contempt, just useless.
@@master_samwise I do very slightly disagree with you on Syril being wasted after e3. You are definitely right in that his character doesn't have much impact throughout that time, but I think he acts as the audience's glimpse into a great many parts of the Empire's systems and the place of the little man within it. By showing his relationship with his mother, we learn that he has a complicated relationship with unjust authority, and honestly, upon first meeting his mother, my first thought was "oh wow, this explains a lot". By showing his search for a job, we learn that, at least as far as functionaries in the Empire go, there is corruption inbuilt at every turn. His mother petitioned his uncle to get him a job, his uncle petitioned the Department of Standards (or whatever it was) to give him a job, and the Department of Standards were willing to remove negative parts from his resume after he got the job. We then see the theoretically quite anal-retentive Karn bowed low by the weight of the Imperial bureaucracy, and the sheer meaninglessness of being a functionary for the Empire. But we see him utilising his place within the Department of Standards to try and catch Andor, which, of course, puts him in contact with the ISB, and when he was brought in for questioning, I felt that was the most real that the ISB has ever felt. We saw what it was like for a small man to be interrogated, even willingly. I am very interested to see where he goes in s2, but I by no means felt he was wasted here.
Andor has really awakened my view on ALL the other SW shows I genuinely feel like we got spoiled with the incredible writing because when watching mando S3 all I can think about is how much better andor was
bro I feel the same way. The new Mando season has really been so difficult to watch after the pure mastery that they did with Andor (also love the Sceptile profile pic)
Mando has been spiralling downwards for a while now, I don't think Season 3 needed Andor to make it look bad. 😪 It does highlight an important difference between heavily episodic writing Vs serialized though; the former can tolerate a few bad episodes, the latter cannot.
Funnily enough this gave me peace actually. After seeing what is actually possible I stopped searching for it in the other star wars series. It set the bar so high that I don't have any expectations for SW anymore because that feels rather pointless in comparison =)
Mando is subpar, along with everything else Filoni/Favreau have done for Star Wars. They can’t be at the helm of live-action projects. Gilroy should be in charge of everything going forward.
About Luthen's voluntary damnation and idealism VS pragmatism, I have a very personal, real-life story to share. My grandfather (whom I've never met) was a French Resistance fighter during WWII, in the N*zi-occupied part of France. Years after his death, I tracked down and met one of his comrades in arms during the war, because I wished to know more about him, to get at least a sliver of my grandad's life story through someone who had known him well, as he left his family when my dad was still quite young. The Resistance comrade of my grandfather told me wonderful things about him, about how the Resistance network they'd both headed sabotaged railway lines and German convoys, how they'd participated in the Shelburn line, smuggling hundreds of downed Allied airmen back to safety across the Channel. My chest swelled with pride, and then he began telling me about the darker stuff. About gunning down French collaborators and traitors in the streets, and about that time after gunning down German officers when the Germans took civilian hostages and started shooting them as long as resistants did not give themselves up. The worst was when they'd had a French sympathizer of the N*zis infiltrate their ranks and they managed to sniff him out. They tortured him not just for intel, but as an example for what happens to traitors. And then they shot him, because they couldn't keep him as a prisoner since they were constantly on the move. For years I couldn't quite bring myself to feel love or pride about my grandfather. Then I realized it's bloody easy to judge in retrospect from the comfort of my home in a free country. I don't say I could have done it better, that there is a better way. I just don't know. He did sure pay a price on his mind and soul afterwards from what I understand. His Resistance comrade wrote a little book years later after that. He gave it as a title what the Germans said about the Resistance to sow division : "They Called Us Terrorists".
Bad ass dude. Thanks for sharing. Sometimes times are so bad that even those on the right side of history have to compromise their morals. Gilroy is a student of history. He no doubt read similar accounts. Having explored resistance movements myself, I really appreciated the little details of security culture, like the broken railing and odd graffiti for communication, the destruction of the model of the aldahni compound, the conversations about why they compartmentalize the operation, etc. I think Andor hit with a lot of people because it is so relevant. Sure, great story, great script, great acting, sound, practical effects and physical sets and all that. But I think Andor came at the perfect moment as we look at a seemingly indestructible oppressive apparatus and consider how we overcome it.
It's interesting - living in Poland, I was told stories of the WW2 underground resistance movement from a young age and hoo boy, nobody bothered to sugarcoat that stuff for us. Collaborators were shot with no mercy, women who entered relationships or sold sex to the Nazi occupiers (sometimes for personal gain or even shared ideology, sometimes out of desperation or blackmail) could be beaten up or executed by the resistance, child soldiers and messengers were used etc. It was always clear to me that resistance could carry a moral cost. And there was some infighting too, as the more right-wing oriented formations sometimes murdered left-wing members, or occasionally collaborated against the Jews (fortunately most of those guys was ousted from the main underground army). I think you should be proud of your grandfather - for all the ugly things he was forced to do, he risked his life to get rid of a much greater evil. Without trivializing the moral and psychological cost of having to kill or torture another human being - he simply did what had to be done. I wouldn't dream of requiring anybody else to make that sacrifice (I probably wouldn't be able to do it myself), but I have immense respect for those who do.
"We were at war" Believe me no one would care if he tortured a nazi. Because nazis are so dehumanized that no one would see it as inmoral. Like 90% of nazi POW died on British camps to the point of them fearing and begging to be captured by americans. No one cared about the murder and rape of berlin or the bombing of Dresden. In fact many people believe that it was justified. Even to this day. That is why the label nazi is so dangerous when used to people you just disagree as is used now. Because it shuts down the morality of normal moral people by dehumanizing your political enemies and justifing action that everyone would see as wrong if they were not... "nazis".
Reading about the War in the Pacific against the Japanese, it becomes even more muddied: the Japanese and the Western Allies did some terrible things to each other - and civilians.
I believe Season 2 is already being filmed, and it had already been planned out. So if nothing else, we will probably get one more good thing from Disney Star Wars.
they had multiple directors. And new directors are coming in for season 2. Although they are competent and have done other real tv shows before. The issue with kenobi was that Chow was the showrunner and director which was just way too much for her to handle. Gilroy is a showrunner and a writer for some episodes. They divied up the tasks better on andor imo.
Something else that I caught upon watching the pilot of Andor again: when the Chief Inspector asks Karn if he's done something to his uniform, and Karn replies that he's had some light tailoring. While that scene already does a pretty good job in showing how seriously Karn takes his job, the fact that he's had his uniform tailored is a subtle detail that just adds to it even more
@@BeeaReyoU. He thought his proactiveness would make him look more attractive by his superiors so he can get promoted. When in reality it makes him stand out in a bad way as someone who can't abide by the status quo. It makes him look insecure.
I also think the scene where the guy describes the method of torture is impactful because it shows the different shades of evil, which Andor likes to explore. He seems like such a friendly guy in the show, and he’s even amicable while describing the torture, but that supposed friendliness hides absolute evil. It’s also creepy that he’s genuinely interested in the science behind it. He’s a different kind of evil than the bureaucratic ladder climbing of Dedra or the fanaticism of Syril
Lonni Jung: And what do you sacrifice? Luthen Rael: Calm. Kindness. Kinship. Love. I've given up all chance at inner peace. I've made my mind a sunless space. I share my dreams with ghosts. I wake up every day to an equation I wrote 15 years ago from which there's only one conclusion, I'm damned for what I do. My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight, they've set me on a path from which there is no escape. I yearned to be a saviour against injustice without contemplating the cost and by the time I looked down there was no longer any ground beneath my feet. What is my sacrifice? I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burn my decency for someone else's future. I burn my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see. And the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude. So what do I sacrifice? Everything! You'll stay with me, Lonni. I need all the heroes I can get.
@@thekinginyellowmessiahofha6308 And even that would be wrong, because he totally should. I liked Rogue One, more than *any* other SWE movie, but I *love* Andor. I think this is cinema at its best.
@@ace2ersatzhandy383 there are several things people can agree on, Rogue one is one of the better star wars movies to come out, Andor was awesome and Obi Wan was a f'ing joke that literally ruined lore. Also disney just shits all over Qui Gon, constantly stabbing people with light sabers and they just walk it off. Reba got stabbed twice, has a literal hole in her and proceeds to travel across the galaxy and hunt people down.
@@digiblak997 I'm not a SW fan, and let most of the TV shows pass be by, but I love seeing Critical Drinker or Pitch Meeting videos about them, plus several German channels. These vids seem to be more fun than the actual shows. I had some hope for Mandalorian, and season 1 was pretty good, but S2 was meh at best and S3 I didn't even bother to watch. Just like everybody else, apparently.
The first example that came to my mind of a character who knew himself was evil but believed he was the necessary evil, is The Operative from the movie Serenity, the movie sequel to the tv series Firefly. The way he talked about creating a better world, was truly chilling.
The acting for that character was amazing. Really felt like a fanatic who would do anything to bring about the future he envisioned. That movie makes me wish Whedon did the sequal trilogy.
Oh good eye! I love The Operator character. He is what I could describe as a "true believer" and that type of character will do anything if it achieves their overarching purpose.
Immediately what I thought of. "This world is not for me, ... A sunrise I know I'll never see." True selflessness, for better or worse. Luthen doesn't get a medal on Yavin, he gets his hands really dirty to tee up heroes like Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia and Han Solo.
I think what I liked most about Andor is how much emphasis was put into how a character appears to be, and how he actually thinks. There is obviously Luthen and Mon but my personal favorite is that garrison commander that is secretly helping staging the heist. Every time he is on screen with someone from the empire you can see how it sickens him and how he feels about the native people they have systematically pushed out of their home. You never get a line to express his emotions. You just see them. The authors and directors respect the audience.
LT Gorn was my favorite character in the Aldanni arc for that reason. So understated and calculating; exactly what I would expect from a clearly competent imperial officer who has goals in direct conflict with his imperial responsibility, still fulfilling those responsibilities. The fear and respect his men have for him led to some of my favorite interactions in the whole show. When he manipulated the NCOs before the eye, letting them think they won a weekend pass for their men, he maintained that air of authority and subtly that a worse show would replace with blatant sabotage or intentional incompetence.
@@andrewerion8552 There is more than one way you can look at Gorn's actions. Him keeping most of the garrison away from the vault has the practical benefit of leaving few Imperials for the team to deal with, but you could also interpret these scenes as him trying to preserve human lives. Imperials or not, the men in the garrison are still living beings. And as Legends showed us time and time again, most ordinary people in the Empire were good people, doing what they thought was right and went to great efforts to achieve their goals of making the Empire better despite what the higher-ups were turning it into and what Palpatine had planned from day one.
Thank you for this, I've seen wayyy too many people say something along the lines of "Bad writing is a strawman argument that you're using as an excuse for being toxic, you aren't a writer" Like what? Are we really just meant to accept poor storytelling without thinking about it just because we aren't writers ourselves? By the same logic, are we not allowed to critique a song because "we aren't musicians"? Jeez some people make me so angry
If you make the mistake of going into any Twitter thread about a recent Big Company product (Mando, RoP, OWK, etc...), you'll see two things: people calling the writing bad, and people saying "you're just saying that cause you hate the show". Or something along those lines. No one elaborates, no one attempts to actually make an argument. They just throw vague terms at one another. I hate Twitter. On the other hand, witnessing such trashy arguments inspired me to make this video and develop my own standards for good writing, so there's a silver lining to the toxic cloud that is Twitter.
@@master_samwise love that! keep it up! wonderful analysis! might inspire me to start making videos on tv and movies! so many films get swept under the rug and it's equally fun to join in on the conversation around big projects that are widely seen like this!
Exactly. I've been rewatching Andor and after I finish an episode I'm almost proud of myself for keeping up with all the nuance in the dialogue, catching details I missed the first time. I watched Kenobi once and thought the story and characters would have been much better, it just wasn't about Obi-Wan enough.
Luthen's speech is by far one of my favorite pieces of dialogue in cinema. I can say it word for word by heart. It is so brutally honest. The real heros are the ones that won't be remembered because they truly sacrificed everything, including the ability to have an "audience or the light of gratitude". True sacrifice is doing what is necessary, even they hate you for it. Even if you end up hating yourself. Freedom has a cost.
I love how Andor doesn’t explain everything to you immediately, it gives you the puzzle pieces and makes you solve them. It keeps you engaged and interested
It would be great to point out how Andor encapsulates the essence of star wars and multiple stories taken place across the galaxy (i.e. heists, prisons, battles, on different worlds). Where Kenobi only sticks to a story limited on a narrow path and not much development on planets shown to be useless to the plot.
Which is why it is so funny that the second most common complaint with Andor, after "it is boring", is "it isn't Star Wars". As if you need lightsabers to make it Star Wars. What is more "Star Wars" than showing how the Rebellion started?
@@jalengeneblazo1772 You said it the best. Andor invests me in an immersive galaxy far far away, Kenobi makes me watch an old man stumble around some places with a little girl.
@@hypocriticalgrammarnazi Glad we can all agree! Yeah, I was hoping for Kenobi to be about Obi Wan traveling the galaxy as a undercover jedi helping those in need and contributing small acts towards the rebellion, yet we see this more in Andor than this show. They really did nerf Obi Wan, a master jedi who fought wars, sith, trained Anakin throughout the prequels and clone wars but then they decided to threw it all out the window. When I first heard Kenobi’s announcement, I envisioned his journey post Ep 6 to be that in which we see Jedi Fallen Order, Andor, Rebels, Clone wars but that it just gave us a very restricted plot that made him even scared to touch the very lightsaber that made him iconic.
@@hypocriticalgrammarnazi I liked the idea with Leia, but why did they waste a whole series on something Obi Wan would get done in a Clone wars episode is my question. Don’t get me started with the inquisitors as well, which had the most potential, yet flopped in cliché tropes that just made them a typical antagonists and punching bags just for the hell of it. We also knew nobody major was going to be killed off in the show which took away my interest, wheras Andor I was on edge on my seat for even the smallest yet well developed characters of the dhow.
Luthen’s scene was THE best piece of Star Wars we EVER got in my opinion. It fits the overall themes, it shows a lot about character, it advances the plot, it does it all!
My personal opinion is that Andor is one of the best shows ever produced. Writing, directing, editing, acting, cinematography, music, the list goes on. I'm rewatching it now and I'm more impressed each time. Thanks for the great video!
The contrast between these 2 shows is so extreme its hard to believe they come from the same company. Not sure how Disney allowed Gilroy to do what he did, but thank God they did. When watching Kenobi, it seems as though the writing is driven from child-like sensibilities. Part of great writing is realistic writing. Would a person in the real world say or do something like this? Then some very immature decisions about what constitutes a suspenseful chase for example (You know, grown men that can't rundown a 10 year old, an awning being a chase ending barrier, Kenobi and Leia not realizing they could simply walk around an electric fence, the list goes on). All these things detract from the realism of the show. Meanwhile Andor is as serious as a heart attack, feels like a good WW2 Nazi/resistance movie. Kenobi was very frustrating.
Your breakdown on what makes writing “good” is something I’ve been thinking about constantly while watching Andor and I’m grateful someone put it to words.
Andor is for adults. Not a knock on Mando, Kenobi, etc. but they are intended for younger less sophisticated audiences. It’s nice we finally got a SW franchise for adults.
You sound like a Rick and Morty high IQ meme aspie, even compared to "average" non SW shows Andor is shit, shit pacing, shit acting (Diego Luna has the acting range of a fish - He was terrible in Rogue one and terrible in this), meandering pointless stories. Go watch Bill Burr go through like 15 different ranges in the span of 5 mins in Mando over his anguish and ptsd from being a storm trooper and tell us all again how its for "younger less sophisticated audiences".
Another character that reminds me of Luthen is Ozymandias from The Watchmen. He understands the horror of his actions but believes they are truly necessary for the survival of humankind
But in the end he didn’t think what he was doing was evil. None of the characters other than Rorschach could call him evil. That’s why Rorschach told Dr, Manhattan he’d reveal the truth unless they killed him because as he said early in the series (maybe his opening monologue) good and evil exist and he would do what was right even in the face of Armageddon (I muddled the quote but Armageddon is specifically mentioned). The others realized Ozymandias had set up a good outcome and would cover for him while Rorschach knew killing millions of people was inherently evil and would reveal the truth even though the outcome would be nuclear war.
Oh I can assure you that Rings of Power is as terribly written as people say. The whole main plot of that show hinges on the fact that the elves with a watchtower in the Southlands and the best eyesight of any race on Arda are incapable of spotting a long, giant, clearly-visible CANAL (not an underground tunnel, mind you, a canal) carved into the surface of the ground. This canal is not newly-dug either, the orcs have been kidnapping Men of Southlands and elves alike as slave labour to dig this canal for a long time. If at any point during the whole construction of the canal, one of the elves garrisoned in the Southlands spots it, the orcs' plan is foiled and the rest of the plot doesn't happen. That's how bad the writing of Rings of Power is.
@@ASummersetproduction The skinwalker version of Galadriel in RoP consistently does so many other idiotic things that it's just in-character now. That's not an issue as big as an outright contradiction in the show's internal logic that the main plot relies on to happen.
They also sent a cavalry battalion from Numenor to the south lands and they arrive right at the perfect time to save the day. This isn't gandalf riding across Rohan, it's across the whole earth.
@@IshtarNike If you really stretch your suspension of disbelief, you might buy into the explation that that scene is a non-linear edit of the timeline, as in Men of Numenor did not start riding at the same time they started cutting away from the village. The real issue with that scene is that the Men of Numenor should not have known where in the Southlands a battle (if any) is taking place. We can see with our own eyes where the show put Tirharad on the map. Even with Galadriel's eyesight, it's impossible for her to see through the Mountains of Shadow like X-ray to find Tirharad from the shore of Middle-Earth.
You asked for another cinematic example of a character admitting he's damning himself for a greater good, and another awesome instance is the Operative in Serenity. Mal: "So me and mine have to lay down and die so you can live in your better world?" Operative: "I'm not going to live there, there's no place for me there. Anymore than there is for you. Malcolm, I'm a monster. What I do is evil, I make no illusions about that. But it must be done."
@@WolvesPlaysGames, not anymore… (This comment, by definition, will not age well) Srsly, like the OP, I specifically thought of the Operative the first time I saw this scene. Luthen seems more tortured by it. Both scenes are amazing.
I never read Aristotle's Poetics, but from what I remember of his Ethics, you have essentially set out a "golden mean" theory of storytelling. very cool.
That was the idea! Though, I can't say I was consciously inspired by Ethics. I can't say I remember much if any of it, but maybe there was some part of it still living in my subconscious.
Personally, I liked Obi-Wan being broken at the start, it definitely made more sense than Luke. Everything he dedicated his life to is gone, he failed Anakin and for a decade thought he was dead.
Yes, me too, I think it made sense to have him broken as a starting point, however they then needed to write a story in which he would face and overcome his trauma and grow as a character... in the show he just kinda gets over it but is not earned in anyway. It could have been so much more profund.
It made sense to have him broken to some extent, but the show took it too far, IMO. His conversation with Nari in episode 1, for example. Obi-Wan basically says "we lost. get over it. we're done." I never got the sense from RotS that Obi-Wan had completely given up hope. He should be biding his time on Tatooine. Trying to deal with the incredible loss he suffered, yes, but not COMPLETLY dejected and hopeless. He was supposed to be training to communicate with Qui-Gon, not cutting himself off from the Force entirely.
@@master_samwise he should have said something like "now Is not time to act, we must keep a low profile and prepare. When the time comes we Will strike the Empire, without a Plan we won't change anything"
Not everything. He knew a new hope still exists with Anakin and Padme kids. Plus he knew his old master was still alive in the force. He had something most of the galaxy didn't have, a New Hope during the dark times. And why wouldn't he know Vader was still alive? Vader has been the face of the empire since the start. Everyone knew who the inquisitor were including Obi-Wan, so Vader would be included. The story of the show would have worked better with Ashoka since she would have likely to believe Everyone is dead and she aided in enslaving the people of mandalore and be likely to abandon the force to hide since she have the trend of abandoning people in need before. It not like lucasflim have a problem rewriting its own canon anyways.
You should definitly talk about Obi-Wan stealing idea from other show or game and doing it worst. Especially from the "Jedi : Fallen Order" game where they pretty much steal most of their idea from, or the last scene with Vader and his broken mask, its an exact copy from Ahsoka VS Vader in the rebel tv show. Most of this show lack originality and steal idea from better media
I would love you to compare the direction and shot composition of both. I feel like this really differentiated the tone of both series as well as how big the set pieces felt like.
The more I think about the Kenobi show, the more I hate it. I'll try to break down my thoughts. 1) He was greatly written out of character. Kenobi has suffered many tragedies (like on Mandalore in TCW) but has always been resilient and never gave up on being a committed Jedi to the code. That he would try to cut himself from the force and bury his weapon is not believable at all. 2) He had two directives at the end of episode 3. a) Protect Luke at all costs. He would need to keep his weapon at hand to take out any threats and he would need the force as his ally (like how he handled Maul in Rebels). b) Yoda had training for him to communicate with Qui-Gon. We never really saw any of this. Was it like what Yoda experienced in TCW, accepting his shadow as part of himself? That is what the show should have explored. 3) It is absolutely stupid how Kenobi can just make himself known as alive and well to the empire when he should be in hiding. That he even agreed to leave Tatooine is a dereliction of his duty which is, yet again, out of his character. He absolutely made himself known to way too many people when his mission should have always been to stay off of the radar of the empire. Overall, the entire premise of the show was wrong. Instead of a character study of a great Jedi becoming even more at one with the force and learning how to live on after physical death we instead got a cookie cutter story of how a broken man got inspired again. That kind of story/trope doesn't work for Obi Wan Kenobi.
I'd say your analysis is pretty spot on. They made all the wrong creative decisions. Kenobi wasn't even in Andor's league from a storytelling standpoint.
@@TheMattfranz agree. Good analysis. I would have much rather enjoyed Obi Wan meditating and connecting to the force, much more than the story we got. Like Luke is playing with that damn plane is in ANH but he talks about opd ben kenobi like hes a local myth and didnt actually have any memory connected to the toy he was still playing with ten years later.
Damn, just when I was forgetting about Kenobi, you come and make me remember how much it sucked. At the same time, man how much do I miss Andor, such a great show, can't wait for season 2. Thanks for the video, great analysis keep up the good work!
Don't worry, Kenobi is being remade by a dude named Pixel something. He's redoing like all of the show, put into a movie. Some new scenes, redoing / enchancing the old ones... i think it'll actually be really good!
On the topic of "acknowledge your moral vacuum" element that you talk about (at approx 9:20 mins) with Stellan Skarsgård's character, there is a somewhat similar element with the 1980s adaption of "Smiley's People" - the John Le Carre spy novel. While it is not as overt as the scene in Andor, there's a final moment in the series where someone tells the main character that he has "won" - yet you can see the protagonist (incidentally played by Alec Guinness) acknowledging his victory externally, but internally questioning that same outcome given the tools that he ultimately used (ie the same as his enemy's) in order to succeed. Brilliant stuff...
A similar moment is at the end of Kingdom of Heaven. When Balian asks Saladin what does Jerusalem mean to you. At first Saladin says nothing and shrugs it off, starts to head back. Then he turns around and says “Everything”. Powerful. But you have to see it in the context of the entire movie.
Im glad you pointed out Leia's inconsistenty, it drove me mad. Acting her age aside, theres a line where she tells him to trust others more and when he doesnt show her his force abilities in public, she suddenly doesnt trust him how she said he should trust others and causes a ridiculous chase scene that wasnt needed and wasnt well made, just so Obi-wan can "reconnect" with the force and catch her from falling
Would like to see comparison of cinematography. I noticed the shaky cam in Kenobi, but am interested in how the other elements compare to Andor (not well I presume)
That's been suggested a few other times. I'm not sure of my ability to make such a comparison. Cinematography is not something I'm completely comfortable critiquing, but I'll do some research and maybe it will make it's way to the channel eventually.
One of the big things that made Andor such a pleasure to watch was so much of the show was filmed on real locations or entire sets built for the show. Shows such as Obi-Wan and Mando are filmed on a special soundstage (I forget what it is called) where it is pretty much in front of a green screen and they add the backgrounds a later time.
I'm old enough to have watched Star Wars on VHS. It will forver be my favorite part of the Star Wars universe. But i think Andor is the best told story in the movies or shows. Haven't read any of the books so maybe there is something better but Andor is so good!
A good example of a character like Luthen is the operative from Serenity. Though he’s working for the evil organization and not against it. He has a scene similar to what you’re looking for.
Likewise my thoughts went directly to Serenity while watching this scene for the first time. In the operative scene at the start of the 3rd act he acknowledges he's a monster and there's no place for him in the world he's trying to create.
10:37 my biggest feeling and fear with luthen's speech was what it meant for the double agent in the elevator i mean, luthen just laid out that he's a bad man, with awful means, and basically no conscience, _and he's okay with that_. and here's his ISB agent, shaking in the elevator. no one knows he's here and he's alone with a madman. i thought for sure luthen would kill him in that moment and it says a lot that he let him live
Nah, he was completely safe in that moment (unless Lonnie was an idiot and defected back to the Empire). Luthen through that speech and the dialogue before it proved exactly how valuable the spy was - Luthen was willing to burn a whole team of fighters to keep Lonnie in place. What the spy had to worry about was staying as useful to Luthen in the future.
I really think these writers need to remember the golden rule "show don't tell", the Mandalorian season 3 is currently struggling with this. There was literally a moment in the last episode where the main character for the episode (Bo Katan) literally turned to everyone else and said everything that they were about to do and exactly what was going to happen, it was so robotic and unnatural
What I want to know is what set luthen on this path to start. He mentioned that it happened 15 years ago which would be roughly around the end of the clone wars
My guess is that he was a collector of antiquities and cultural artifacts and the empire started exterminating peoples and cultures almost immediately, as we kinda see in Bad Batch season 1.
@@stevebreedlove9760that’s kind of interesting, like if he was a sort of anthropologist of different cultures before the Empire but then was forced to sell all the treasures and memories he had collected during his studies. Is it a good idea? I don’t know but it’s an interesting one that someone else might be able to develop into something good
If you are looking for a scene about a "good" character explaining their pragmatic position and use of the enemies strategies look at the scene Declaration of War in Attack on Titan. It has two characters on opposite sides of a conflict having a conversation. One character who has been an antagonist has developed remorse for his actions which sent the protagonist on his journey and is seeking forgiveness while the protagonist has come to understand why the antagonist did what he did and is revealing how he will do the same thing. There's a lot of story between the beginning and that scene but its all worth watching/reading. Declaration of War is one of the best scenes in all of story telling in my opinion.
Check out the monologues in Devil's Advocate (Al Pacino). Gilroy was also the screenwriter for that film, and the monologues are among the best ever written. If you consider the motivation of that story's Satan, it somewhat echos Luthen in terms of the moral tone, sacrifice and the willingness to right wrongs from that character's pov.
9:18 so in Rogue One, Cassian says something very similar to Jyn about doing bad things and telling himself “it was for a cause I believed in.” Very cool parallel and very likely a direct reference by the show writers to that film!
It impressed me how consistent Cassian was to his Rogue One character in Andor, despite also being notably at a different point in his life and motivations. He has all the same basic traits, but instead of being a dedicated Rebel operative, he is a thief with a dedicated loyalty to his family and friends. The show does a good job of showing how he can go from being a 'selfish' person to one dedicated to a cause, but still being the same person, just changed by the things he does and experiences. Something the Solo movie does terribly. At no point does 'Han' feel like an actual character, much less like Han Solo. To the point that every other character in the movie steals every ounce of attention whenever they were on screen. The title character just kind of floats in the background of his own movie to me.
08:55 - best moments of Andor? Man, Luthen's speech is one of the best scenes in Star Wars period. To me it's probably in my top 3. It's one of the best monologues in media. Easily way up there.
SInce you asked... Captain Benjamin Sisko is another example of a character who did morally reprehensible things for the sake of a greater cause, knowing they are reprehensible, knowing they have made him unredeemable. "I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all? I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing: a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha quadrant. So I will learn to live with it."
Well, now Luthen's sacrifice for a "sunrise" means nothing. Because Favreau and Filoni's New Republic is comically inept and evil in The Mandalorian. 😂
The New Republic has always been inept. Even worse than the empire. I have no love for the sequels but I do like how they portray the new republic as completely defanged and it's portrayal in the mandalorian is consistent with that. Plus, the republic before the clone wars was equally bad, it's still in character for the organization.
I disagree. The First Order didnt have an iron grip of oppression on countless systems. Sure it was evil but it wasnt equal to the Empire in how many worlds were affected. Getting rid of the empire was a sunrise for a lot of people. And as the other poster points out, ineptitude is a feature of bureaucracy and every regime has its share.
As an aspiring writer, I'm learning a lot from your videos. You put things I know but don't quite comprehend into words, allowing me to better understand why some things feel far better than others even when just drafting. Your character breakdowns in particular help a lot. They've helped me better understand my own characters' goals, morals, progression and decision-making. What I have in my head isn't changed very much because of these revelations, but they are immensely clearer. Where I once had an angry, lonely teenager who lashed out at anyone even mildly opposed to his ideas, I now have a young man who has been so hurt by his family's condemnation of his path in life and tries so hard to justify it to himself that he takes any slight very personally. They're the same character, their personalities and backstories are exactly the same, but the latter has that extra clarity which means so much.
Luthen's "I'm damned for what I do" moment reminded me of Chiwetel Ejiofor's character in Serenity. He was trying to make better worlds, but not for him.
A character that fits your description perfectly of someone who admits to their evil but does it anyway is Eren Jaeger from Attack on Titan. Such a well-written show and it's definitely worth your time!
The monster who knows he has no place in the better world he's working create is possibly my favourite trope. It's more common in villains though. The Agent (Chiwetel Ejiofor) in Serenity is an excellent example.
@@SuperBearnut The cold way he says 'I do' without skipping a beat when Malcolm says he himself doesn't kill children...is a subtle but great look into the character of an uber-zealot done right.
One of the most infuriating things about the obi wan / Vader scene for me is how it was entirely stolen from the ahsoka / Vader scene in rebels, completely failed to have the same impact or emotional weight as “I won’t leave you, not this time.” “Then you will die.” in what was likely more than double the amount of dialogue, and yet it seems everyone just wants to ignore this clear plagiarism and pretend like it was an exceptionally profound and nuanced piece of writing. It was just a bad copy of what was a genuinely impactful scene in an earlier show !!!
Obiwan - getting great actors for every role and just write horrible crap to make them embarrass themselves. I felt bad for the black actress - she's excellent in some scenes and so cringy in others ("more anger! Show more anger!" Imagine the director yelled). The director for the show was actually one of the best out there. Rumor had it there were so many last minute changes, reshoots and demands that they came up with this cheap looking garbage. Andor - even the no-name actors in every scene gave phenomenal performances.
The one that stood out to me was the "reveal plot points through comms" trope that both shows used. In Obi-Wan, bail organa starts his communique with "I know we said no radio contact, but..." immediately organa is assassinated as a character. He then proceeds to give very specific details that allow for the plot to happen. Contrarily we have the episode of Andor where cassian first meets with luthen. He goes to the meeting spot, then he comms to Bee. He is only confirming that the comms are working, and delivering a message to his friend to help take care of his mother. He doesnt say anything about where he is, or that he is guilty of lilling the cops. The antagonists then use their resoirces to locate him. Night and day.
You asked for comparisons to other characters like luthen that know their actions are immoral but do them for the greater good? Revan. Just Revan. Maybe even Kreia, If you haven't played kotor 1 and 2 I highly recommend it. Those two characters and the way they treat morality and the dark/lightside of the force makes that story so incredible.
I think a good exercise for learning to write a consistent character is to write a fictional story but populate it with people from your life you know intimately. When you start to force inconsistent behaviour from them to move your story to where you want it to be you will be intensely aware that behaviour doesn't fit because you know them as real people. You will be forced to rewrite to find an alternative way to move the scene that allows the characters to be true to their real life counterparts. It may also help to write organic, flowing dialogue as you would know how those two real people would interact in the real world.
yes. if you do character studies, personality tests, etc. on your characters you get to know them and therefore they will reveal to you how they would react instead of you saying 'no u have to say or do this or that to make my plot work'
I think one of the biggest problems with star wars media is their obsession with the big main characters from pervious stories, particularly vader and luke. Soemtimes, this works really well (such as with luke in the Mandalorian and bobf), as it's what we expect from the character in this stage of their development and it doesn't mess with any pre-defined stories. This, imo, is what Kenobi got so drastically wrong. Leia should NOT be in this show. It messes with WAY too many line deliveries from previous stories (such as Leia obviously not knowing ben), and therefore just doesn't feel right. Same with his final duel with Vader. There was no need for it, but the writers were so lazy that they couldn't be bothered to actually write any new, interesting, compelling characters to have obiwan interact with or act as a foil. On the other hand, Andor has all the freedom in the world. Every character is new, every character is compelling (and extremely well acted for that matter), and, importantly, every character is vulnerable. Apart from Cassian himself, there is noone in the show who you can point at and go "oh well i know he survives this dire situation coz I see him 5 years down the timeline in episode [x]". long story short, I frickin LOVE andor. It is amazing, I really hope disney don't give up on it just because it isn't pulling in big numbers. It's, in my opinion, the best star wars media we have had since The Clone Wars.
This is a fantastic idea and 'rabbit hole' to fall down while experimenting. I saw a video the other day using a shadow box frame to set a multiple sheet set of prints in. Behind all the layers is a string of LED lights, the mini ones that can be powered by battery/rechargeable battery/solar-powered. The various layers of the prints can be printed on transparencies, velum, paper, cardstock, etc. you use whichever one is best within the sandwich meaning how much of the light needs to shine through to see the printed images. Anywho, I found it was an interesting rabbit hole for experimentation. I really like your framing as well and I want to play with it. Thank you.
Reaaaallly enjoyed your videos on this topic! Thank you for putting so much time and effort into highlighting why Andor is so well done and Kenobi not so much
When you were talking about the action in each show in part 1 you pointed out the awkward blocking in obi-wan. I felt that on the whole for the show. I'd love to see that as an aspect of the show! That and the cinematography and music!
Luthens monologue is one of the best scenes on the small screen hands down! What a payoff. Just a shame, that the series suffers from the poor acting of its main character and from a destroyed franchise.
@@TroySavary Had the vibe yeah but there was no flow to the episode. Wasn't terrible but I'm very skeptical of where this show is going. Politics and StarWars has always been a thing, we live in a generation of NOW NOW NOW ACTION ACTION ACTION. No-one reads anymore they all just want instant gratification.
Well, to be honest the writing went from ok to terrible in this season. I dont think its the case of Andor making it look bad. I mean, I laughed outloud when that giant bird conveniently regurgitated the mandalorian kid an entire day after it had captured him at the exact time the rescue party arrived. Yikes. It doesnt even feel like a mando show anymore. They are making some pathetic attempts at world building (like in episode 3) but its all over the place and feels contrived. When they brought back Grogu I felt it wasnt going in the right direction. Now its confirmed. Shame
A great moment of exposition to me is the first scene in the ISB. They need the audience to understand what the ISB is and what it does. This is not an easy thing to get across naturally, as everyone in the organization should know how they operate and what their purpose is. So how do they go about it? Well, we enter on one of the members at the table being chewed out for not being efficient, and when they resist, Partigaz asks “what do we do here at ISB,” frustrated and wanting to remind the members of their purpose to re-motivate them. The action is meant to belittle the person resisting, as they should know the basic operations of the organization they are high up in. Partigaz uses this basic information to get across how fed up he is with people not respecting that. That would be enough to justify us getting a bit of exposition, it’s likely one of the smoothest ways you can do something like that, but Andor isn’t done there. What follows is two explanations that give us two different perspectives on the organization as well as some character for Deidre. Deidre speaks up to answer the question, reciting the definition out of the handbook. This shows us that Deidre is very aware of rules and protocol, and put effort into learning them for this position, and it shows she wants to impress Partigaz by speaking up to give an answer. It also tells us how the Empire views the ISB and it’s purpose. And then Partigaz says it is completely wrong, giving his own perspective on what the purpose of the ISB is. They took a tough writing challenge of getting some exposition in, and used it to a great extent to tell us a lot in very little time, while still coming across as mostly natural.
The writing for Obi Wan can best be summed up as contrived. The writers have a place they want to go and the characters and dialogue are just there to tick boxes in every scene.
![[柴犬ASMR]曼玉Manyu&小白Bai 毛发护理Spa asmr](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0TsXQ7z2Dh4/mqdefault.jpg)
The fact that a regular ISB officer was more terrifying than a literal Inquisitor is very telling on how the villains were written for these two shows.
lol yeah totally. the inquisitors were 100% disney clowns, i couldn't take them seriously. so sad :(
Grand Inquistor in Rebels was really cool, in Kenobi he was a pathetic jerk
@@masteryoghurt2110 Watch Rebels, I must
@@masteryoghurt2110 yeah his entire vibe and story in rebels was just goofed in kenobi.
And it's not just the villains, it's the Empire as a whole that feels like a huge, overbearing threat in Andor. The last Star Wars movies had a planet-sized superweapon that could obliterate five planets at once, then they had a fleet of 1000 ships, each capable of nuking an entire planet with one shot. But at no point did they really _feel_ like much of a threat. They were just kind of there, then they were dealt with, and that was that.
Andor, by contrast, managed to make the appearance of a single TIE fighter feel like a tense and scary moment.
"I can't swim" trumps any emotional moment in Kenobi.
Or in most shows tbh
What moment in an actually decent show doesn't?
Just hurts that he knows that they were in the sea. But he still did all of it
No.
Vaders face reveal would have easily trumped it if it hadn't been a carbon copied scene from Rebels: Twilight of the Apprentice...
@@riveraharper8166 I hope this is supposed to be sarcasm. Vader is just another clown. A clown that tickles the Fans balls so much that they are made to believe that the trash they are watching is actually good.
Star Wars Fans have been ruining Star Wars for years. Not George, not Failoni, not even Disney. They just produce stuff. It's you who tell them: "Keep going. We like shit. We like Trash."
Kino just saying "Never more than twelve" is an example of dialogue with emotional weight
4 words the audience can see the weight on this character changing his motivations and direction in life
Yeah, I got chills when he said those words. Great story arc in a great show
Honestly I think all of Kino’s lines after that point are solid gold, he made me cry with his last two words.
That was maybe my favorite moment in Andor it’s really a testament to how context and delivery can make any dialogue have weight and meaning.
@@davidk2189And “I can’t swim”
I would love to see a comparison between Kenobi and Andor’s interrogation scenes, Reva and Leia vs. Dedra and Bix. Specifically why the one in Kenobi is a joke and the one in Andor gives you genuine chills.
Truthfully I think the big problem is audience.
I think the executives at Disney are conflicted with knowing their audience. Obi Wan Kenobi seemed like a show for that got dumbed down for children, whereas Andor seems like a show directed for adults (or at the very minimum young adults). I think a lot of people don't realize that they're not making content for specifically *you*, but rather making content for a wide range. It just sucks that they cut corners on shows directed for children.
@@AlaskafishStudios That also shows poor decision making on their part as the target audience of Obi Wan should've been the age group that grew up with him especially those that grew up with the prequels as they're the ones that love Ewans version the most are going to the most excited for the show.
@@AlaskafishStudios Most of the people who would care about the Obi-Wan Kenobi series were children or young adults at the time of the Prequel Trilogy-Not kids today. They wanted an Obi-Wan series as grownup, subtle, emotional, and developed, as they themselves are-We need to see that both Darth Vader and Ben Kenobi have grown into their characters. We see none of this, while Reva remains a sociopathic, stupid narcissist-Being both a boring baddie and an unconvincing anti-hero-And Leia…omg. Nothing mature, precocious, smart, brave or any of the overhyped girl power adjectives Disney spits out-Just a spoiled and poorly written child with rotten lines, and no hint of who she would become in ten years.
It didn’t hurt that the actress behind Dedra Meero was absolutely amazing. Her performance started strong and got better, and more evil, with each episode. Andor’s casting department cannot get enough credit for this perfect cast. Even the smaller roles are performed with more complexity than we’ve seen in any Star Wars story, and that includes everything.
@@AlaskafishStudios It doesn't just "seem like" it was dumbed down, it LITERALLY WAS! (Guess who) Kathleen Kennedy had it rewritten because it was reportedly "too bleak"
I didn’t hate Kenobi…. But when putting it alongside Andor it’s blown out the water.
Andor is EXACTLY what I wanted from a Star Wars show. Just give me some good Thrawn stuff with Andor level writing I’ll be totally on board with Disney keeping making Star Wars shows
I kind of do because it wasted a lot of potential. I actually quite like the idea of Obi-Wan being a little bit broken after the events of everything. But it was executed so poorly that people now seem to think it is correct that you can't have a character be different than a previous portrayal. That is only one aspect of terrible execution in the show, but it was a big one that put me off early.
Andor was boring
@@TheChosen2030 Just like your mom...
Nah seriously it was boring at the beginning but I rather have no big Action scenes than whatever the fuck they did in Kenobi
@@TheChosen2030It had great dialogue, great scene direction, great acting, great cinematography.
Andor is the only reason I din‘t cancel my disney subscription. This show alone is worth the fee for me … while even Mando felt … just random in comparison. Now in season 3, I see some interesting new plotlines, that can make it worthwile, and on the surface-level it surpasses Andor in entertainment-value, but looking deeper, Andor is still miles ahead. But well, we‘ll see how episodes 3.4+ of Mando turn out. It has at least the pontential to tell a great (thrawn??? 😍) story.
The torturers monolog isn´t even exposition. He is telling this to Bix as part of her torture, so she starts to get scared before it even really begins
Excellent point.
I dunno if it was intimidation. He came across as as scientist more interested in his craft than anything else. It's the nazi scientists in a different mold. Many Nazi scientists did terrible experiments in prisoners. It wasn't aimed at being evil for the scientists, they just didn't care about the lives they destroyed. Same here.
@@IshtarNike What you said is exponentially more terrifying because a curious scientist discussing the horrific outcomes of an experiment is so much worse than someone merely trying to intimidate you. It means they don't even view you as a person, you are merely a test subject. And for you to realize they have no empathy is so much scarier than the "tough guy" or "bad cop" motif.
@@IshtarNike Idk man if I was told in excruciating detail about my torturing methods by the torturer with genuine excitement and a smile on their face before actually being tortured, I'd be pretty Intimidated
I've heard most people start talking as soon as they see the implements of the interrogation. He was laying out his shiny implements in a cold calculating way. He almost seemed to delight in how clean it all would be. But what else did he do? They way the camera lingered on Bix in the ship as they left. There's more that happened.
Luthen's moral struggle was shown by the fact that he told Saw about his plan to sacrifice Kryger specifically to either be convinced to save Kryger or convince Saw to agree with the sacrifice. In the end, Saw agreed the sacrifice was necessary...by which, in his own mind, Luthern is able to share the moral burden with Saw. If he were not struggling with his own decisions, he would not have made that trip.
It kinda makes me wonder if Luthen influenced Saw and made him more extreme. Shades of grey.
I think that scene had more complexity. Saw knowing meant he could close any loose ends connecting him to Kryger, but to also understand what is necessary. Maybe also to wake him from his paranoia so he could be more focused. My first impression was he wanted to be talked into saving Kryger, but Saw was the wrong contact for that.
My real question was whether or not Saw let Krieger die because he knew he was just a clone :3
One of my favorite underrated moments is Sergeant Mosk saying “Corporate Tactical Security is the first line of defense for the Empire” thinking he was apart of the Empire and their cause. But by the end of the season, you see Mosk just sitting and drinking after the riots. Just thinking what he just witnessed and what the “first line of defense for the Empire” really means.
Mosk’s actor has said on Twitter that he wasn’t asked to come back so this is where his story ends.
I loved his character's portrayal. Such a small part, and not particularly unique, but damn he nailed the role and his chemistry with Cyril Karn was excellent. I thought Cyril was kind of wasted after episode 3, unfortunately. Hoping he comes back in a more substantial role next season.
Kind of sad, looooved Mosk in S1
@@master_samwise yeah, cyril was basically pointless after the first arc, the fact that we kept focusing on him and that he had a part in the finale probably means he’s being set up for a more significant role in season two.
@@master_samwise I agree on your point to his scene with the executive on not investigating to keep crime rates down, the problem is there are still viewers that misinterpret it as just being something more simple. For me he did not want anyone finding who killed those two enforcers because he held them in contempt. By implication to me, he then held Cyril doing something in contempt, just useless.
@@master_samwise I do very slightly disagree with you on Syril being wasted after e3. You are definitely right in that his character doesn't have much impact throughout that time, but I think he acts as the audience's glimpse into a great many parts of the Empire's systems and the place of the little man within it.
By showing his relationship with his mother, we learn that he has a complicated relationship with unjust authority, and honestly, upon first meeting his mother, my first thought was "oh wow, this explains a lot".
By showing his search for a job, we learn that, at least as far as functionaries in the Empire go, there is corruption inbuilt at every turn. His mother petitioned his uncle to get him a job, his uncle petitioned the Department of Standards (or whatever it was) to give him a job, and the Department of Standards were willing to remove negative parts from his resume after he got the job.
We then see the theoretically quite anal-retentive Karn bowed low by the weight of the Imperial bureaucracy, and the sheer meaninglessness of being a functionary for the Empire. But we see him utilising his place within the Department of Standards to try and catch Andor, which, of course, puts him in contact with the ISB, and when he was brought in for questioning, I felt that was the most real that the ISB has ever felt. We saw what it was like for a small man to be interrogated, even willingly.
I am very interested to see where he goes in s2, but I by no means felt he was wasted here.
The side characters in Andor seem to have their own lives, irrespective of the main story
Unlike most main characters in Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Andor has really awakened my view on ALL the other SW shows I genuinely feel like we got spoiled with the incredible writing because when watching mando S3 all I can think about is how much better andor was
bro I feel the same way. The new Mando season has really been so difficult to watch after the pure mastery that they did with Andor (also love the Sceptile profile pic)
Mando has been spiralling downwards for a while now, I don't think Season 3 needed Andor to make it look bad. 😪
It does highlight an important difference between heavily episodic writing Vs serialized though; the former can tolerate a few bad episodes, the latter cannot.
Funnily enough this gave me peace actually. After seeing what is actually possible I stopped searching for it in the other star wars series. It set the bar so high that I don't have any expectations for SW anymore because that feels rather pointless in comparison =)
It was better before the studio execs got their grubby hands on it.
Mando is subpar, along with everything else Filoni/Favreau have done for Star Wars. They can’t be at the helm of live-action projects. Gilroy should be in charge of everything going forward.
About Luthen's voluntary damnation and idealism VS pragmatism, I have a very personal, real-life story to share.
My grandfather (whom I've never met) was a French Resistance fighter during WWII, in the N*zi-occupied part of France.
Years after his death, I tracked down and met one of his comrades in arms during the war, because I wished to know more about him, to get at least a sliver of my grandad's life story through someone who had known him well, as he left his family when my dad was still quite young.
The Resistance comrade of my grandfather told me wonderful things about him, about how the Resistance network they'd both headed sabotaged railway lines and German convoys, how they'd participated in the Shelburn line, smuggling hundreds of downed Allied airmen back to safety across the Channel.
My chest swelled with pride, and then he began telling me about the darker stuff.
About gunning down French collaborators and traitors in the streets, and about that time after gunning down German officers when the Germans took civilian hostages and started shooting them as long as resistants did not give themselves up.
The worst was when they'd had a French sympathizer of the N*zis infiltrate their ranks and they managed to sniff him out. They tortured him not just for intel, but as an example for what happens to traitors. And then they shot him, because they couldn't keep him as a prisoner since they were constantly on the move.
For years I couldn't quite bring myself to feel love or pride about my grandfather. Then I realized it's bloody easy to judge in retrospect from the comfort of my home in a free country. I don't say I could have done it better, that there is a better way.
I just don't know. He did sure pay a price on his mind and soul afterwards from what I understand.
His Resistance comrade wrote a little book years later after that. He gave it as a title what the Germans said about the Resistance to sow division : "They Called Us Terrorists".
Bad ass dude. Thanks for sharing. Sometimes times are so bad that even those on the right side of history have to compromise their morals. Gilroy is a student of history. He no doubt read similar accounts. Having explored resistance movements myself, I really appreciated the little details of security culture, like the broken railing and odd graffiti for communication, the destruction of the model of the aldahni compound, the conversations about why they compartmentalize the operation, etc. I think Andor hit with a lot of people because it is so relevant. Sure, great story, great script, great acting, sound, practical effects and physical sets and all that. But I think Andor came at the perfect moment as we look at a seemingly indestructible oppressive apparatus and consider how we overcome it.
It's interesting - living in Poland, I was told stories of the WW2 underground resistance movement from a young age and hoo boy, nobody bothered to sugarcoat that stuff for us.
Collaborators were shot with no mercy, women who entered relationships or sold sex to the Nazi occupiers (sometimes for personal gain or even shared ideology, sometimes out of desperation or blackmail) could be beaten up or executed by the resistance, child soldiers and messengers were used etc. It was always clear to me that resistance could carry a moral cost. And there was some infighting too, as the more right-wing oriented formations sometimes murdered left-wing members, or occasionally collaborated against the Jews (fortunately most of those guys was ousted from the main underground army).
I think you should be proud of your grandfather - for all the ugly things he was forced to do, he risked his life to get rid of a much greater evil. Without trivializing the moral and psychological cost of having to kill or torture another human being - he simply did what had to be done. I wouldn't dream of requiring anybody else to make that sacrifice (I probably wouldn't be able to do it myself), but I have immense respect for those who do.
"We were at war"
Believe me no one would care if he tortured a nazi. Because nazis are so dehumanized that no one would see it as inmoral. Like 90% of nazi POW died on British camps to the point of them fearing and begging to be captured by americans. No one cared about the murder and rape of berlin or the bombing of Dresden. In fact many people believe that it was justified. Even to this day. That is why the label nazi is so dangerous when used to people you just disagree as is used now. Because it shuts down the morality of normal moral people by dehumanizing your political enemies and justifing action that everyone would see as wrong if they were not... "nazis".
Reading about the War in the Pacific against the Japanese, it becomes even more muddied: the Japanese and the Western Allies did some terrible things to each other - and civilians.
damn we need the Andor director again…
True
We need the Andor writer again
I believe Season 2 is already being filmed, and it had already been planned out. So if nothing else, we will probably get one more good thing from Disney Star Wars.
they had multiple directors. And new directors are coming in for season 2. Although they are competent and have done other real tv shows before. The issue with kenobi was that Chow was the showrunner and director which was just way too much for her to handle. Gilroy is a showrunner and a writer for some episodes. They divied up the tasks better on andor imo.
@@marcbeaulac2400 Gilroy is still in charge of the project though, right?
Something else that I caught upon watching the pilot of Andor again: when the Chief Inspector asks Karn if he's done something to his uniform, and Karn replies that he's had some light tailoring. While that scene already does a pretty good job in showing how seriously Karn takes his job, the fact that he's had his uniform tailored is a subtle detail that just adds to it even more
The chief also noticed it.
He's not incompetent or unobservant. He's just pragmatic, and lax for a reason. Backed up by his later decisions.
There's more to that than you think. He had it modified specifically to look more like that of his superiors.
In that moment I knew this show was different
@@BeeaReyoU. He thought his proactiveness would make him look more attractive by his superiors so he can get promoted. When in reality it makes him stand out in a bad way as someone who can't abide by the status quo. It makes him look insecure.
I also think the scene where the guy describes the method of torture is impactful because it shows the different shades of evil, which Andor likes to explore. He seems like such a friendly guy in the show, and he’s even amicable while describing the torture, but that supposed friendliness hides absolute evil. It’s also creepy that he’s genuinely interested in the science behind it. He’s a different kind of evil than the bureaucratic ladder climbing of Dedra or the fanaticism of Syril
Lonni Jung: And what do you sacrifice?
Luthen Rael: Calm. Kindness. Kinship. Love. I've given up all chance at inner peace. I've made my mind a sunless space. I share my dreams with ghosts. I wake up every day to an equation I wrote 15 years ago from which there's only one conclusion, I'm damned for what I do. My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight, they've set me on a path from which there is no escape. I yearned to be a saviour against injustice without contemplating the cost and by the time I looked down there was no longer any ground beneath my feet. What is my sacrifice? I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burn my decency for someone else's future. I burn my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see. And the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude. So what do I sacrifice? Everything! You'll stay with me, Lonni. I need all the heroes I can get.
I have never read something better
To summarize: Tony Gilroy should write everything in the Star Wars universe.
No we don’t.
@mazkeraid4039
We didn’t do what? Did you mean “no he shouldn’t?”
@@thekinginyellowmessiahofha6308 And even that would be wrong, because he totally should. I liked Rogue One, more than *any* other SWE movie, but I *love* Andor. I think this is cinema at its best.
@@ace2ersatzhandy383 there are several things people can agree on, Rogue one is one of the better star wars movies to come out, Andor was awesome and Obi Wan was a f'ing joke that literally ruined lore. Also disney just shits all over Qui Gon, constantly stabbing people with light sabers and they just walk it off. Reba got stabbed twice, has a literal hole in her and proceeds to travel across the galaxy and hunt people down.
@@digiblak997 I'm not a SW fan, and let most of the TV shows pass be by, but I love seeing Critical Drinker or Pitch Meeting videos about them, plus several German channels. These vids seem to be more fun than the actual shows. I had some hope for Mandalorian, and season 1 was pretty good, but S2 was meh at best and S3 I didn't even bother to watch. Just like everybody else, apparently.
The first example that came to my mind of a character who knew himself was evil but believed he was the necessary evil, is The Operative from the movie Serenity, the movie sequel to the tv series Firefly. The way he talked about creating a better world, was truly chilling.
The acting for that character was amazing. Really felt like a fanatic who would do anything to bring about the future he envisioned. That movie makes me wish Whedon did the sequal trilogy.
"Me and mine have to die so you get to live in your better world?"
"I'm not going to live there, Mal. I'm a monster."
Ok that show was so good though
Oh good eye! I love The Operator character. He is what I could describe as a "true believer" and that type of character will do anything if it achieves their overarching purpose.
Immediately what I thought of.
"This world is not for me, ... A sunrise I know I'll never see."
True selflessness, for better or worse. Luthen doesn't get a medal on Yavin, he gets his hands really dirty to tee up heroes like Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia and Han Solo.
That security office scene in Andor had more intelligent writing then the whole 3 seasons on the Mandalorian.
I think what I liked most about Andor is how much emphasis was put into how a character appears to be, and how he actually thinks. There is obviously Luthen and Mon but my personal favorite is that garrison commander that is secretly helping staging the heist. Every time he is on screen with someone from the empire you can see how it sickens him and how he feels about the native people they have systematically pushed out of their home. You never get a line to express his emotions. You just see them. The authors and directors respect the audience.
LT Gorn was my favorite character in the Aldanni arc for that reason. So understated and calculating; exactly what I would expect from a clearly competent imperial officer who has goals in direct conflict with his imperial responsibility, still fulfilling those responsibilities. The fear and respect his men have for him led to some of my favorite interactions in the whole show. When he manipulated the NCOs before the eye, letting them think they won a weekend pass for their men, he maintained that air of authority and subtly that a worse show would replace with blatant sabotage or intentional incompetence.
@@andrewerion8552 There is more than one way you can look at Gorn's actions. Him keeping most of the garrison away from the vault has the practical benefit of leaving few Imperials for the team to deal with, but you could also interpret these scenes as him trying to preserve human lives. Imperials or not, the men in the garrison are still living beings.
And as Legends showed us time and time again, most ordinary people in the Empire were good people, doing what they thought was right and went to great efforts to achieve their goals of making the Empire better despite what the higher-ups were turning it into and what Palpatine had planned from day one.
Luthen's speech is hands down amazing. And I have watched many times. It's so raw and powerful.
I think its the best writing in all of Star Wars.
@@TheMattfranz it is, and some of the best writing ever, to me. powerful and real, not a cheesy spectacle
@@TheMattfranz totally agree
And true.
The Kenobi show felt like a story written for a scene rather than the other way around.
100% thats what this video said too. They had a moment they wanted to capture and everything was built around it.
Luthien's speech is on par with "like tears in the rain" speech from Blade Runner - Goosebumps everytime.
Thank you for this, I've seen wayyy too many people say something along the lines of "Bad writing is a strawman argument that you're using as an excuse for being toxic, you aren't a writer" Like what? Are we really just meant to accept poor storytelling without thinking about it just because we aren't writers ourselves? By the same logic, are we not allowed to critique a song because "we aren't musicians"? Jeez some people make me so angry
If you make the mistake of going into any Twitter thread about a recent Big Company product (Mando, RoP, OWK, etc...), you'll see two things: people calling the writing bad, and people saying "you're just saying that cause you hate the show". Or something along those lines. No one elaborates, no one attempts to actually make an argument. They just throw vague terms at one another.
I hate Twitter.
On the other hand, witnessing such trashy arguments inspired me to make this video and develop my own standards for good writing, so there's a silver lining to the toxic cloud that is Twitter.
@@master_samwise In any case, thank you for putting into words what I've been telling people for way too long with little to no success
@@master_samwise love that! keep it up! wonderful analysis! might inspire me to start making videos on tv and movies! so many films get swept under the rug and it's equally fun to join in on the conversation around big projects that are widely seen like this!
@@cosmoreverb3943 Yep I've seen some of Mauler's work. He attains a level of analytical detail I aspire to.
@@PinaKoalaGaming Do it! The world of criticism has too few reasonable voices.
Good writing is when dialogues make me feel clever
Bad writing is when dialogues make me feel cleverer.
Exactly. I've been rewatching Andor and after I finish an episode I'm almost proud of myself for keeping up with all the nuance in the dialogue, catching details I missed the first time. I watched Kenobi once and thought the story and characters would have been much better, it just wasn't about Obi-Wan enough.
Luthen's speech is by far one of my favorite pieces of dialogue in cinema. I can say it word for word by heart. It is so brutally honest. The real heros are the ones that won't be remembered because they truly sacrificed everything, including the ability to have an "audience or the light of gratitude". True sacrifice is doing what is necessary, even they hate you for it. Even if you end up hating yourself.
Freedom has a cost.
I love how Andor doesn’t explain everything to you immediately, it gives you the puzzle pieces and makes you solve them. It keeps you engaged and interested
It would be great to point out how Andor encapsulates the essence of star wars and multiple stories taken place across the galaxy (i.e. heists, prisons, battles, on different worlds). Where Kenobi only sticks to a story limited on a narrow path and not much development on planets shown to be useless to the plot.
Which is why it is so funny that the second most common complaint with Andor, after "it is boring", is "it isn't Star Wars". As if you need lightsabers to make it Star Wars. What is more "Star Wars" than showing how the Rebellion started?
@@TroySavary totally agree! You said it best
@@jalengeneblazo1772 You said it the best. Andor invests me in an immersive galaxy far far away, Kenobi makes me watch an old man stumble around some places with a little girl.
@@hypocriticalgrammarnazi Glad we can all agree! Yeah, I was hoping for Kenobi to be about Obi Wan traveling the galaxy as a undercover jedi helping those in need and contributing small acts towards the rebellion, yet we see this more in Andor than this show. They really did nerf Obi Wan, a master jedi who fought wars, sith, trained Anakin throughout the prequels and clone wars but then they decided to threw it all out the window. When I first heard Kenobi’s announcement, I envisioned his journey post Ep 6 to be that in which we see Jedi Fallen Order, Andor, Rebels, Clone wars but that it just gave us a very restricted plot that made him even scared to touch the very lightsaber that made him iconic.
@@hypocriticalgrammarnazi I liked the idea with Leia, but why did they waste a whole series on something Obi Wan would get done in a Clone wars episode is my question. Don’t get me started with the inquisitors as well, which had the most potential, yet flopped in cliché tropes that just made them a typical antagonists and punching bags just for the hell of it. We also knew nobody major was going to be killed off in the show which took away my interest, wheras Andor I was on edge on my seat for even the smallest yet well developed characters of the dhow.
Luthen’s scene was THE best piece of Star Wars we EVER got in my opinion. It fits the overall themes, it shows a lot about character, it advances the plot, it does it all!
The fact that the amazing Stellan Skarsgaard is playing Luthen doesn't hurt. He's so good.
My personal opinion is that Andor is one of the best shows ever produced. Writing, directing, editing, acting, cinematography, music, the list goes on. I'm rewatching it now and I'm more impressed each time. Thanks for the great video!
I'm getting ready to watch Andor for a third time!
For me it's Band of Brothers
The contrast between these 2 shows is so extreme its hard to believe they come from the same company. Not sure how Disney allowed Gilroy to do what he did, but thank God they did. When watching Kenobi, it seems as though the writing is driven from child-like sensibilities. Part of great writing is realistic writing. Would a person in the real world say or do something like this? Then some very immature decisions about what constitutes a suspenseful chase for example (You know, grown men that can't rundown a 10 year old, an awning being a chase ending barrier, Kenobi and Leia not realizing they could simply walk around an electric fence, the list goes on). All these things detract from the realism of the show. Meanwhile Andor is as serious as a heart attack, feels like a good WW2 Nazi/resistance movie. Kenobi was very frustrating.
Your breakdown on what makes writing “good” is something I’ve been thinking about constantly while watching Andor and I’m grateful someone put it to words.
I'm glad you enjoyed it! Appreciate the thanks!
"Don't service fans, service the Story, if u do that you service the audience and that's all the matter"
-Troy Baker
Andor is for adults. Not a knock on Mando, Kenobi, etc. but they are intended for younger less sophisticated audiences. It’s nice we finally got a SW franchise for adults.
You sound like a Rick and Morty high IQ meme aspie, even compared to "average" non SW shows Andor is shit, shit pacing, shit acting (Diego Luna has the acting range of a fish - He was terrible in Rogue one and terrible in this), meandering pointless stories.
Go watch Bill Burr go through like 15 different ranges in the span of 5 mins in Mando over his anguish and ptsd from being a storm trooper and tell us all again how its for "younger less sophisticated audiences".
DID YOU SAY GOLLUM WHEN INTRODUCING ANDY SERKIS AS KINO LOY LMAOOO
Thank you for noticing that.
That cracked me up too! 😂🤣
I had a nasal burst at that. Took me right out, giggling.
Another character that reminds me of Luthen is Ozymandias from The Watchmen. He understands the horror of his actions but believes they are truly necessary for the survival of humankind
But in the end he didn’t think what he was doing was evil. None of the characters other than Rorschach could call him evil. That’s why Rorschach told Dr, Manhattan he’d reveal the truth unless they killed him because as he said early in the series (maybe his opening monologue) good and evil exist and he would do what was right even in the face of Armageddon (I muddled the quote but Armageddon is specifically mentioned). The others realized Ozymandias had set up a good outcome and would cover for him while Rorschach knew killing millions of people was inherently evil and would reveal the truth even though the outcome would be nuclear war.
Oh I can assure you that Rings of Power is as terribly written as people say. The whole main plot of that show hinges on the fact that the elves with a watchtower in the Southlands and the best eyesight of any race on Arda are incapable of spotting a long, giant, clearly-visible CANAL (not an underground tunnel, mind you, a canal) carved into the surface of the ground. This canal is not newly-dug either, the orcs have been kidnapping Men of Southlands and elves alike as slave labour to dig this canal for a long time. If at any point during the whole construction of the canal, one of the elves garrisoned in the Southlands spots it, the orcs' plan is foiled and the rest of the plot doesn't happen. That's how bad the writing of Rings of Power is.
Can't forget galadrials plan to swim across the sea to get back to middle earth after noping out of going back to Valinor
@@ASummersetproduction The skinwalker version of Galadriel in RoP consistently does so many other idiotic things that it's just in-character now. That's not an issue as big as an outright contradiction in the show's internal logic that the main plot relies on to happen.
And they made gandalf retarded
They also sent a cavalry battalion from Numenor to the south lands and they arrive right at the perfect time to save the day. This isn't gandalf riding across Rohan, it's across the whole earth.
@@IshtarNike If you really stretch your suspension of disbelief, you might buy into the explation that that scene is a non-linear edit of the timeline, as in Men of Numenor did not start riding at the same time they started cutting away from the village. The real issue with that scene is that the Men of Numenor should not have known where in the Southlands a battle (if any) is taking place. We can see with our own eyes where the show put Tirharad on the map. Even with Galadriel's eyesight, it's impossible for her to see through the Mountains of Shadow like X-ray to find Tirharad from the shore of Middle-Earth.
You asked for another cinematic example of a character admitting he's damning himself for a greater good, and another awesome instance is the Operative in Serenity.
Mal: "So me and mine have to lay down and die so you can live in your better world?"
Operative: "I'm not going to live there, there's no place for me there. Anymore than there is for you. Malcolm, I'm a monster. What I do is evil, I make no illusions about that. But it must be done."
I thought of that scene as I watched this video, but looks like I'm a week late. Nice pull! Chewital Ejiofor crushed that role too.
@@pawacoteng I'm even later 😅
I'm even later! I win!
@@WolvesPlaysGames, not anymore…
(This comment, by definition, will not age well)
Srsly, like the OP, I specifically thought of the Operative the first time I saw this scene. Luthen seems more tortured by it. Both scenes are amazing.
@@earthdrawn same! 😂
I never read Aristotle's Poetics, but from what I remember of his Ethics, you have essentially set out a "golden mean" theory of storytelling. very cool.
That was the idea! Though, I can't say I was consciously inspired by Ethics. I can't say I remember much if any of it, but maybe there was some part of it still living in my subconscious.
Personally, I liked Obi-Wan being broken at the start, it definitely made more sense than Luke. Everything he dedicated his life to is gone, he failed Anakin and for a decade thought he was dead.
Yes, me too, I think it made sense to have him broken as a starting point, however they then needed to write a story in which he would face and overcome his trauma and grow as a character... in the show he just kinda gets over it but is not earned in anyway. It could have been so much more profund.
It made sense to have him broken to some extent, but the show took it too far, IMO. His conversation with Nari in episode 1, for example. Obi-Wan basically says "we lost. get over it. we're done." I never got the sense from RotS that Obi-Wan had completely given up hope. He should be biding his time on Tatooine. Trying to deal with the incredible loss he suffered, yes, but not COMPLETLY dejected and hopeless. He was supposed to be training to communicate with Qui-Gon, not cutting himself off from the Force entirely.
@@master_samwise he should have said something like "now Is not time to act, we must keep a low profile and prepare. When the time comes we Will strike the Empire, without a Plan we won't change anything"
Not everything. He knew a new hope still exists with Anakin and Padme kids. Plus he knew his old master was still alive in the force. He had something most of the galaxy didn't have, a New Hope during the dark times.
And why wouldn't he know Vader was still alive? Vader has been the face of the empire since the start. Everyone knew who the inquisitor were including Obi-Wan, so Vader would be included.
The story of the show would have worked better with Ashoka since she would have likely to believe Everyone is dead and she aided in enslaving the people of mandalore and be likely to abandon the force to hide since she have the trend of abandoning people in need before. It not like lucasflim have a problem rewriting its own canon anyways.
I like the idea, but the execution is bad. For an example similar character from Fallen Jedi Cere Junda is better written
You should definitly talk about Obi-Wan stealing idea from other show or game and doing it worst. Especially from the "Jedi : Fallen Order" game where they pretty much steal most of their idea from, or the last scene with Vader and his broken mask, its an exact copy from Ahsoka VS Vader in the rebel tv show. Most of this show lack originality and steal idea from better media
Master Sam wise actually has talked about that in a few other videos. I definitely recommend you check out his other stuff if you haven’t yet.
Fr
I would love you to compare the direction and shot composition of both. I feel like this really differentiated the tone of both series as well as how big the set pieces felt like.
Kenobi looks like a fan film shot entirely on a green screen. Andor feels so real and it looks so great.
The more I think about the Kenobi show, the more I hate it. I'll try to break down my thoughts.
1) He was greatly written out of character. Kenobi has suffered many tragedies (like on Mandalore in TCW) but has always been resilient and never gave up on being a committed Jedi to the code. That he would try to cut himself from the force and bury his weapon is not believable at all.
2) He had two directives at the end of episode 3.
a) Protect Luke at all costs. He would need to keep his weapon at hand to take out any threats and he would need the force as his ally (like how he handled Maul in Rebels).
b) Yoda had training for him to communicate with Qui-Gon. We never really saw any of this. Was it like what Yoda experienced in TCW, accepting his shadow as part of himself? That is what the show should have explored.
3) It is absolutely stupid how Kenobi can just make himself known as alive and well to the empire when he should be in hiding. That he even agreed to leave Tatooine is a dereliction of his duty which is, yet again, out of his character. He absolutely made himself known to way too many people when his mission should have always been to stay off of the radar of the empire.
Overall, the entire premise of the show was wrong. Instead of a character study of a great Jedi becoming even more at one with the force and learning how to live on after physical death we instead got a cookie cutter story of how a broken man got inspired again. That kind of story/trope doesn't work for Obi Wan Kenobi.
I'd say your analysis is pretty spot on. They made all the wrong creative decisions. Kenobi wasn't even in Andor's league from a storytelling standpoint.
@@TheMattfranz agree. Good analysis. I would have much rather enjoyed Obi Wan meditating and connecting to the force, much more than the story we got. Like Luke is playing with that damn plane is in ANH but he talks about opd ben kenobi like hes a local myth and didnt actually have any memory connected to the toy he was still playing with ten years later.
Damn, just when I was forgetting about Kenobi, you come and make me remember how much it sucked. At the same time, man how much do I miss Andor, such a great show, can't wait for season 2.
Thanks for the video, great analysis keep up the good work!
Don't worry, Kenobi is being remade by a dude named Pixel something. He's redoing like all of the show, put into a movie. Some new scenes, redoing / enchancing the old ones... i think it'll actually be really good!
@@huntervegas4548 yeah, I've seen that, I understand that guy worked on Andor, so his re-edit looks very promising, looking forward to watch it.
As bad as Obi-Wan was, it was no where close to being as bad as Book of Boba Fett!
Its unreal to know we can have dialogue of the likes of Andor but then Book of Boba Fett, The Mandalorian, and Obi-Wan exist as well.
Andor was so good they can just claim all the awards this year
On the topic of "acknowledge your moral vacuum" element that you talk about (at approx 9:20 mins) with Stellan Skarsgård's character, there is a somewhat similar element with the 1980s adaption of "Smiley's People" - the John Le Carre spy novel. While it is not as overt as the scene in Andor, there's a final moment in the series where someone tells the main character that he has "won" - yet you can see the protagonist (incidentally played by Alec Guinness) acknowledging his victory externally, but internally questioning that same outcome given the tools that he ultimately used (ie the same as his enemy's) in order to succeed. Brilliant stuff...
A similar moment is at the end of Kingdom of Heaven. When Balian asks Saladin what does Jerusalem mean to you. At first Saladin says nothing and shrugs it off, starts to head back. Then he turns around and says “Everything”. Powerful. But you have to see it in the context of the entire movie.
I couldn’t wait for each episode of Andor. I had trouble getting through Obi…
Luthen's speech is one of the best moments of TV hands down. haha
Im glad you pointed out Leia's inconsistenty, it drove me mad. Acting her age aside, theres a line where she tells him to trust others more and when he doesnt show her his force abilities in public, she suddenly doesnt trust him how she said he should trust others and causes a ridiculous chase scene that wasnt needed and wasnt well made, just so Obi-wan can "reconnect" with the force and catch her from falling
Would like to see comparison of cinematography. I noticed the shaky cam in Kenobi, but am interested in how the other elements compare to Andor (not well I presume)
That's been suggested a few other times. I'm not sure of my ability to make such a comparison. Cinematography is not something I'm completely comfortable critiquing, but I'll do some research and maybe it will make it's way to the channel eventually.
One of the big things that made Andor such a pleasure to watch was so much of the show was filmed on real locations or entire sets built for the show. Shows such as Obi-Wan and Mando are filmed on a special soundstage (I forget what it is called) where it is pretty much in front of a green screen and they add the backgrounds a later time.
I'm old enough to have watched Star Wars on VHS. It will forver be my favorite part of the Star Wars universe. But i think Andor is the best told story in the movies or shows. Haven't read any of the books so maybe there is something better but Andor is so good!
A good example of a character like Luthen is the operative from Serenity. Though he’s working for the evil organization and not against it. He has a scene similar to what you’re looking for.
Likewise my thoughts went directly to Serenity while watching this scene for the first time. In the operative scene at the start of the 3rd act he acknowledges he's a monster and there's no place for him in the world he's trying to create.
10:37 my biggest feeling and fear with luthen's speech was what it meant for the double agent in the elevator
i mean, luthen just laid out that he's a bad man, with awful means, and basically no conscience, _and he's okay with that_. and here's his ISB agent, shaking in the elevator. no one knows he's here and he's alone with a madman. i thought for sure luthen would kill him in that moment and it says a lot that he let him live
Nah, he was completely safe in that moment (unless Lonnie was an idiot and defected back to the Empire). Luthen through that speech and the dialogue before it proved exactly how valuable the spy was - Luthen was willing to burn a whole team of fighters to keep Lonnie in place. What the spy had to worry about was staying as useful to Luthen in the future.
I really think these writers need to remember the golden rule "show don't tell", the Mandalorian season 3 is currently struggling with this. There was literally a moment in the last episode where the main character for the episode (Bo Katan) literally turned to everyone else and said everything that they were about to do and exactly what was going to happen, it was so robotic and unnatural
What I want to know is what set luthen on this path to start. He mentioned that it happened 15 years ago which would be roughly around the end of the clone wars
My guess is that he was a collector of antiquities and cultural artifacts and the empire started exterminating peoples and cultures almost immediately, as we kinda see in Bad Batch season 1.
@@stevebreedlove9760that’s kind of interesting, like if he was a sort of anthropologist of different cultures before the Empire but then was forced to sell all the treasures and memories he had collected during his studies. Is it a good idea? I don’t know but it’s an interesting one that someone else might be able to develop into something good
If you are looking for a scene about a "good" character explaining their pragmatic position and use of the enemies strategies look at the scene Declaration of War in Attack on Titan. It has two characters on opposite sides of a conflict having a conversation. One character who has been an antagonist has developed remorse for his actions which sent the protagonist on his journey and is seeking forgiveness while the protagonist has come to understand why the antagonist did what he did and is revealing how he will do the same thing. There's a lot of story between the beginning and that scene but its all worth watching/reading. Declaration of War is one of the best scenes in all of story telling in my opinion.
I would say Maarva’s Speech is the most powerful moment in Star Wars. It gets me emotional every time.
Check out the monologues in Devil's Advocate (Al Pacino). Gilroy was also the screenwriter for that film, and the monologues are among the best ever written. If you consider the motivation of that story's Satan, it somewhat echos Luthen in terms of the moral tone, sacrifice and the willingness to right wrongs from that character's pov.
9:18 so in Rogue One, Cassian says something very similar to Jyn about doing bad things and telling himself “it was for a cause I believed in.”
Very cool parallel and very likely a direct reference by the show writers to that film!
I actually just re-watched Rogue One last night and noticed that!
It impressed me how consistent Cassian was to his Rogue One character in Andor, despite also being notably at a different point in his life and motivations.
He has all the same basic traits, but instead of being a dedicated Rebel operative, he is a thief with a dedicated loyalty to his family and friends.
The show does a good job of showing how he can go from being a 'selfish' person to one dedicated to a cause, but still being the same person, just changed by the things he does and experiences.
Something the Solo movie does terribly. At no point does 'Han' feel like an actual character, much less like Han Solo. To the point that every other character in the movie steals every ounce of attention whenever they were on screen.
The title character just kind of floats in the background of his own movie to me.
after years of meme consumption, I was convinced that they just gave Bix a nonstop replay of rick astley
Easy street from twd for sure
08:55 - best moments of Andor?
Man, Luthen's speech is one of the best scenes in Star Wars period. To me it's probably in my top 3.
It's one of the best monologues in media. Easily way up there.
SInce you asked... Captain Benjamin Sisko is another example of a character who did morally reprehensible things for the sake of a greater cause, knowing they are reprehensible, knowing they have made him unredeemable.
"I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all? I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing: a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha quadrant. So I will learn to live with it."
I came down into the comments to see if anyone else mentioned The Sisko. That scene was playing in my head as I was watching the video.
'So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I CAN live with it. Computer, erase that entire personal log."
Well, now Luthen's sacrifice for a "sunrise" means nothing. Because Favreau and Filoni's New Republic is comically inept and evil in The Mandalorian. 😂
We haven’t seen enough of them to decide if they are evil
The New Republic has always been inept. Even worse than the empire. I have no love for the sequels but I do like how they portray the new republic as completely defanged and it's portrayal in the mandalorian is consistent with that. Plus, the republic before the clone wars was equally bad, it's still in character for the organization.
I disagree. The First Order didnt have an iron grip of oppression on countless systems. Sure it was evil but it wasnt equal to the Empire in how many worlds were affected. Getting rid of the empire was a sunrise for a lot of people. And as the other poster points out, ineptitude is a feature of bureaucracy and every regime has its share.
Not if you just place Andor in the legends universe. I know I do.
As an aspiring writer, I'm learning a lot from your videos. You put things I know but don't quite comprehend into words, allowing me to better understand why some things feel far better than others even when just drafting. Your character breakdowns in particular help a lot. They've helped me better understand my own characters' goals, morals, progression and decision-making. What I have in my head isn't changed very much because of these revelations, but they are immensely clearer.
Where I once had an angry, lonely teenager who lashed out at anyone even mildly opposed to his ideas, I now have a young man who has been so hurt by his family's condemnation of his path in life and tries so hard to justify it to himself that he takes any slight very personally. They're the same character, their personalities and backstories are exactly the same, but the latter has that extra clarity which means so much.
Luthen's "I'm damned for what I do" moment reminded me of Chiwetel Ejiofor's character in Serenity. He was trying to make better worlds, but not for him.
A character that fits your description perfectly of someone who admits to their evil but does it anyway is Eren Jaeger from Attack on Titan. Such a well-written show and it's definitely worth your time!
The monster who knows he has no place in the better world he's working create is possibly my favourite trope. It's more common in villains though. The Agent (Chiwetel Ejiofor) in Serenity is an excellent example.
Boy I hope Disney in the future takes a look at Andor on creating a well written show/movie.
The scene with the bounty hunter in serenity is pretty similar, the moment were he says he won't get to live in paradise.
That's based off Firefly, right?
@@master_samwise Yes. The Operative played masterfully by Chiwetel Ejiofor. His arc in the movie is really great
@@SuperBearnut The cold way he says 'I do' without skipping a beat when Malcolm says he himself doesn't kill children...is a subtle but great look into the character of an uber-zealot done right.
I do think Luthen's overall speech is better, but "Malcolm, I'm a monster" hits pretty hard.
That was my first thought too.
My opinion on Firefly has soured quite a bit in recent years, but the Operative was a really interesting villain.
One of the most infuriating things about the obi wan / Vader scene for me is how it was entirely stolen from the ahsoka / Vader scene in rebels, completely failed to have the same impact or emotional weight as “I won’t leave you, not this time.” “Then you will die.” in what was likely more than double the amount of dialogue, and yet it seems everyone just wants to ignore this clear plagiarism and pretend like it was an exceptionally profound and nuanced piece of writing. It was just a bad copy of what was a genuinely impactful scene in an earlier show !!!
Obiwan - getting great actors for every role and just write horrible crap to make them embarrass themselves. I felt bad for the black actress - she's excellent in some scenes and so cringy in others ("more anger! Show more anger!" Imagine the director yelled).
The director for the show was actually one of the best out there. Rumor had it there were so many last minute changes, reshoots and demands that they came up with this cheap looking garbage.
Andor - even the no-name actors in every scene gave phenomenal performances.
The actress for Reva was cri Ge in show and in real life. She, with no hint of irony, declared she was the first black main character in Star Wars.
Those Andor actors are no name because they cast British stage actors. I believe most of them are known in the theater scene.
@@stevebreedlove9760 yea one can tell they are so great in their roles though they don't look like movie stars
"I can't swim."
"What!?"
"I can't swim!"
Enough said
The one that stood out to me was the "reveal plot points through comms" trope that both shows used. In Obi-Wan, bail organa starts his communique with "I know we said no radio contact, but..." immediately organa is assassinated as a character. He then proceeds to give very specific details that allow for the plot to happen.
Contrarily we have the episode of Andor where cassian first meets with luthen. He goes to the meeting spot, then he comms to Bee. He is only confirming that the comms are working, and delivering a message to his friend to help take care of his mother. He doesnt say anything about where he is, or that he is guilty of lilling the cops. The antagonists then use their resoirces to locate him.
Night and day.
You asked for comparisons to other characters like luthen that know their actions are immoral but do them for the greater good?
Revan. Just Revan. Maybe even Kreia, If you haven't played kotor 1 and 2 I highly recommend it.
Those two characters and the way they treat morality and the dark/lightside of the force makes that story so incredible.
the complexity of Revan in legends is just too good. The stuff added in Kotor 2 is pure gold standard for writing.
I think a good exercise for learning to write a consistent character is to write a fictional story but populate it with people from your life you know intimately. When you start to force inconsistent behaviour from them to move your story to where you want it to be you will be intensely aware that behaviour doesn't fit because you know them as real people. You will be forced to rewrite to find an alternative way to move the scene that allows the characters to be true to their real life counterparts. It may also help to write organic, flowing dialogue as you would know how those two real people would interact in the real world.
yes. if you do character studies, personality tests, etc. on your characters you get to know them and therefore they will reveal to you how they would react instead of you saying 'no u have to say or do this or that to make my plot work'
Very insightful video, really enjoyed this!
Yoooo! I was just wondering when Part 2 would come out 😂 💯
I think one of the biggest problems with star wars media is their obsession with the big main characters from pervious stories, particularly vader and luke. Soemtimes, this works really well (such as with luke in the Mandalorian and bobf), as it's what we expect from the character in this stage of their development and it doesn't mess with any pre-defined stories. This, imo, is what Kenobi got so drastically wrong. Leia should NOT be in this show. It messes with WAY too many line deliveries from previous stories (such as Leia obviously not knowing ben), and therefore just doesn't feel right. Same with his final duel with Vader. There was no need for it, but the writers were so lazy that they couldn't be bothered to actually write any new, interesting, compelling characters to have obiwan interact with or act as a foil. On the other hand, Andor has all the freedom in the world. Every character is new, every character is compelling (and extremely well acted for that matter), and, importantly, every character is vulnerable. Apart from Cassian himself, there is noone in the show who you can point at and go "oh well i know he survives this dire situation coz I see him 5 years down the timeline in episode [x]".
long story short, I frickin LOVE andor. It is amazing, I really hope disney don't give up on it just because it isn't pulling in big numbers. It's, in my opinion, the best star wars media we have had since The Clone Wars.
Reva: monkey Screams
Deedra: the worst thing you can do is bore me
i always saw it the same way but you put it beautifully in words
Great comparison!! Good writing makes such a difference.
The best metaphor for how terrible the Obi-Wan show is is that episode with the useless checkpoint they could just walk around….
You really called Andy’s character Gollum 😂
" I UNDERSTAND. IT'S A VERY INTENSE MOMENT. CAN YOU STOP SHAKING THE CAMERA ALREADY? *_OBI-WAN IS JUST WALKING_* " -Me, watching Obi-Wan
Great video/analysis!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Starting Kenobi with Kenobi being depressed and dejected was the smartest thing that show did.
Example for someone admitting doing something wrong and doing it anyway: Star Trek DS9 In the Pale Moonlight
fr thats what I was thinking as well. Definitely one of my favorite scifi tv shows
Unironically, Sisko did the "right" thing. Not the good or moral thing, but the necessary thing.
This is a fantastic idea and 'rabbit hole' to fall down while experimenting.
I saw a video the other day using a shadow box frame to set a multiple sheet set of prints in. Behind all the layers is a string of LED lights, the mini ones that can be powered by battery/rechargeable battery/solar-powered. The various layers of the prints can be printed on transparencies, velum, paper, cardstock, etc. you use whichever one is best within the sandwich meaning how much of the light needs to shine through to see the printed images. Anywho, I found it was an interesting rabbit hole for experimentation.
I really like your framing as well and I want to play with it. Thank you.
Reaaaallly enjoyed your videos on this topic! Thank you for putting so much time and effort into highlighting why Andor is so well done and Kenobi not so much
B’ee the robot in andor had more character depth than any of the characters Disney has shit out in the last 10 years.
Compare the character arcs, please! Kino Loy, Andor, Maarve, EVERYONE is so well written IMO.
When you were talking about the action in each show in part 1 you pointed out the awkward blocking in obi-wan. I felt that on the whole for the show. I'd love to see that as an aspect of the show! That and the cinematography and music!
The straight-faced parts about Rings Of Power maybe being well written are SO GOOD I almost fell of my chair. Well done, Sir!
Luthens monologue is one of the best scenes on the small screen hands down! What a payoff. Just a shame, that the series suffers from the poor acting of its main character and from a destroyed franchise.
I'm not even enjoying Mandalorian after Andor. It feels cheap and the writing is sloppy. It feels like the cash grab it is.
Good to know I’m not missing anything. Andor spoiled me, I can’t tolerate low grade writing anymore.
If you like Andor, season 3 episode 3 of Mandalorian gives some of that vibe. Although Mando fans are hating it for being slow, boring, and political.
@@TroySavary Had the vibe yeah but there was no flow to the episode. Wasn't terrible but I'm very skeptical of where this show is going. Politics and StarWars has always been a thing, we live in a generation of NOW NOW NOW ACTION ACTION ACTION. No-one reads anymore they all just want instant gratification.
Well, to be honest the writing went from ok to terrible in this season. I dont think its the case of Andor making it look bad. I mean, I laughed outloud when that giant bird conveniently regurgitated the mandalorian kid an entire day after it had captured him at the exact time the rescue party arrived. Yikes. It doesnt even feel like a mando show anymore. They are making some pathetic attempts at world building (like in episode 3) but its all over the place and feels contrived.
When they brought back Grogu I felt it wasnt going in the right direction. Now its confirmed. Shame
A great moment of exposition to me is the first scene in the ISB. They need the audience to understand what the ISB is and what it does. This is not an easy thing to get across naturally, as everyone in the organization should know how they operate and what their purpose is. So how do they go about it?
Well, we enter on one of the members at the table being chewed out for not being efficient, and when they resist, Partigaz asks “what do we do here at ISB,” frustrated and wanting to remind the members of their purpose to re-motivate them. The action is meant to belittle the person resisting, as they should know the basic operations of the organization they are high up in. Partigaz uses this basic information to get across how fed up he is with people not respecting that.
That would be enough to justify us getting a bit of exposition, it’s likely one of the smoothest ways you can do something like that, but Andor isn’t done there. What follows is two explanations that give us two different perspectives on the organization as well as some character for Deidre. Deidre speaks up to answer the question, reciting the definition out of the handbook. This shows us that Deidre is very aware of rules and protocol, and put effort into learning them for this position, and it shows she wants to impress Partigaz by speaking up to give an answer. It also tells us how the Empire views the ISB and it’s purpose. And then Partigaz says it is completely wrong, giving his own perspective on what the purpose of the ISB is.
They took a tough writing challenge of getting some exposition in, and used it to a great extent to tell us a lot in very little time, while still coming across as mostly natural.
The agent in Serenity knows what he is and what his goals for the future are. Also well done.
The writing for Obi Wan can best be summed up as contrived.
The writers have a place they want to go and the characters and dialogue are just there to tick boxes in every scene.