Keep beating that drum John that the church excommunicated you, Natasha, and Sam Young while keeping Jodi Hildebrandt in confidence and tacitly, if not openly, endorsing her for years. That needs to continue to be called out. Great interview!
THIS! There is nothing the "church" fears more than the truth and those who speak it. Access to the internet from private homes was the worst thing to happen to them, because those who wanted and cared about the truth suddenly had access to those their "church" has always kept hidden. 😢
My therapist would not even accept a jar of honey. I definitely wasn’t trying to “sugar” her up. Lol. I was just excited to share my first batch of the season but she politely refused taking it. It made sense.
Please, please, PLEASE stop giving Kevin a pass. I don’t think he’s responsible for the level of abuse that the kids went through towards the end, but he sure as hell was a big part of the abuse from their 8 passengers channel. Taking away a child’s food, bed, autonomy is abuse. Just because he didn’t hog tie the kids and make them work in the blistering sun, it doesn’t absolve him of allowing the early stages of abuse happening in the years leading up to these horrible crimes. Please call him out on this. I beg.
Agreed, treating him with this kindness just grosses me out. He was there participating in his children’s abuse long before Jodi came along. He was a checked out father and even if you’re not doing the hands on abusing, watching it, letting it happen and advocating for it is just as bad. Glad the therapist has some sense. This episode really irritated me.
Well said! Also let’s not forget that on 2 separate occasions he pressured the police to charge his own daughter with trespassing … because she was taking care of HIS kids!
I agree…also Kevin basically abandoned his kids for a year. He never once checked on their wellbeing knowing that Jodi behaviour was problematic. It really is shameful.
Agreed! And as far as I am concerned, he allowed what happened to happen- where was he? What kind of father walks away from his children for so long?! He knew that something was very wrong with Jodi and Ruby’s relationship and he did nothing. That’s not innocent.
I'm really glad that Natasha kept pointing out that Kevin is at fault as well. So many people are ignoring his part in his children's care and even painting him as a victim in the entirety of the situation, which he isn't.
Yea, Kevin is a bit of a goober, too. He helped create and carry out the abuse while he lived with them. The only thing he’s not guilty of is whatever happened after he was kicked out.
When she was takin into custody, they interviewed the father. He claimed he had no idea of the abuse, and he had not seen his children for a year!!! Why ??
It is MUCH more damaging to a child for their parent to watch another person abuse and actively ignore that abuse. This is betrayal at the highest level.
Yep. I was a teen when I started going to therapy and I processed my bitterness over abuse from my dad. As soon as I felt compassion for him as a human (not absolving him from blame, but understanding him more) I felt like a mountain of bitterness towards my mom was unleashed. Why didn't she save me from him? Why didn't she remove me from that house? Why didn't she put me (and my sibling) first? It's been a long time and I have a much better relationship with both of my parents now, but there have been times when going low contact was the best option for me and I fully support anyone who feels that estrangement is their only option. The betrayal is so deep, and those scars truly never leave you, you just learn to live in a different way.
My heart breaks for the kids. I was abused and 30 years later my adopted father's brother and sister in law confirmed the abuse and admitted they never reported it. It's opened a whole new can of worms.
@@WitchOracleI had the same issue growing up. My mom just stood by and allowed us to be abused by an out-of-control husband and I had a lot of anger towards her that I had to work through. What Kevin has done is just as abusive, and the fact that they’re sitting here letting him off the hook makes me sick. I’m glad the therapist has some sense.
I've been following this case since last year, so thank you Natasha for saying that Kevin isn't blameless in all of this! I was shocked to hear that they were promising not to go too hard on him, in part due to personal relationships. But your personal relationship to him shouldn't absolve the part that he played in the abuse of his children and his continued protection of Ruby up until her conviction. Even before Jodi was in the picture, he not only went along with Ruby's cruelty but he also contributed to the emotional, physical, and mental abuse and exploitation of his children. It's all on video. He was present and allowed it to happen. And when Jodi was in the picture, his absence and negligence allowed for the abuse to continue to escalate. Kevin, if you're reading this, you have a lot of accountability to take in the abuse of your children. Two things can be true at once. Mormon indoctrination may have influenced your decision making and your parenting, but there is still individual responsibility in the part that you played.
Never Mormon here, and I am SO glad to hear Natasha call out 12 step programs. I had serious trauma at their hands, and it’s very hard for me to listen to glowing praise from people when I was treated to coercion and control tactics that harmed me for years. There was no way to fight back because I would be accused of being in denial or being uncooperative whenever I questioned anything. It was terrible. At this point, someone usually tells me to try different groups because they don’t all fit. I did. And there’s no convincing me 12 step groups aren’t “religious.” Their main book is loaded with god language, and even courts have determined they’re religious. I cannot stomach their principles and the way they blame victims.
Some disjointed points in response to your post: here are sick people everywhere, inclusive of in 12 Step programs; I have experienced them, as well, especially where the program is weak. I lived in part of a large city that was politically liberal for 18 years, so the people who would have done cultish stuff were probably afraid to pull their tactics. I never heard blaming of victims. There is a big difference between spirituality and organized religion.
Yes 28 yrs here in aa , 9 years I was controlled by a VERY strict sponsor! Controlled me by shame and fear if I didn’t follow her exactly, I’d drink again. Recovering now in aca which allows me to love myself ❤️
I've heard a lot of bad stuff around AA, but I will say ACA Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families was not that way at all. It's about healing shame, not discussing your behaviors.
12-step programs are not cults. If they were, people would do what they’re told! 😂 I’m a big fan of 12-step programs. In my experience (& I have experience with “high-control” groups as well), they are spiritual, not religious. If your group or sponsor is too rigid or pushy in that regard, find another one. they have transformed my life, inside & out. I have a relationship with the God of my understanding. No one dictates to me or those I am close to, what that should be or that it even SHOULD be. Everyone finds their own way.
In re: masturbation, I have three sons. I took them aside as teenagers and told them privately, that it was normal, natural, everyone does it, and they shouldn't be ashamed of it. All I asked is that they kept it private and cleaned up after themselves (lol). And that if the bishop ever asked them about it, they had my permission, in this one instance, to lie. And I was fully TBM at the time. But that's how strongly I felt that the Church's attitude towards masturbation was wrong and damaging.
Thank heavens for someone being moderate. This "therapist" that says you shouldn't put limits on that activity is AS extreme as those that try to tell kids that they should never do it. I've told my son that if he can't keep it private and clean he shouldn't be doing it until he can. I don't want to see that....as you said, it's no one elses business unless they choose to make it someone elses business. A good momma!
Your attitude must have made them feel validated; good for you. I think I would consider telling them to tell the bishop that they chose to not discuss that topic with him, and that if he needed to, he could go to you. That would have supported their setting boundaries and built self-esteem; it feels awful to lie.
not a Mormon, but a Bible believing Christian. I have 3 boys and can't imagine my Pastor asking my boys a question like that. it sounds sick . I'm not bashing in anyway, but not being raised Mormon it's just so difficult to hear and understand 😢
I'm glad Natasha Helfer added that qualifier. Kevin had a responsibility to protect his kids and failed to do so. Kevin was also a part of their lives and youtube channel, when Ruby threatened with scissors to CUT OFF THE HEAD of their young daughter's stuffed toy. Her cries of fear and despair in that video are haunting.
As someone who followed their cancellation on YT, you guys are being way too kind on the Frankes. Ruby was abusing the kids and Kevin was ignoring it is the best interpretation. At a minimum, that's what their channel showed. However, both parents felt fully involved in various means of control that alarmed the viewers of their videos. He never stopped her. That active decision to not intervene IS a choice. Yes, Kevin is a victim, and I'd argue that Ruby is also a victim of Jody's, but they are both parents who left their children in a situation where they could be starved. There's no excusing a parent who doesn't protect their kids. The pass Kevin is being given in this is because he isn't being treated as a primary parent. ETA: Ok, glad the lady therapist called it out.
I disagree with kevin being an instigator. Counselors are held up to too-high a standard, like doctors. People think counselors know what they are doing, know it all, and give them too much authority. He tried to do what he was counseled to do. Thinking it was the best for his kids because the counselor said so. She, the counselor, is off the wall.
The problem is their sick minds. Everything is a no no. Anything that is that harsh is not good to anyone's growth. We wind up as a disfunction adults. I remember Kevin saying that Ruby didn't wanted to dress lingeries. That's something someone put in her mind it is bad. Sick and twisted. Who knows is she wasn't abused as a child? Not saying she should abuse others, better yet, be against all kinds of abuse. She missed the opportunity to be a good parent. If she only went to the right doctors. Or maybe she is beyond help.
I disagree.....if they choose time and place poorly when they are old enough to know better. Are you going to sit and watch your 13 year old son pleasure himself? Anyone who is willing to do that will find themselves in jail soon enough. Enough said. Moderation people, not extremes.
I am not a Mormon. Never have been. I will say, I learn so much from this podcast. I have a decades long friend who has continuing family struggles because of the LDS. This podcast helps me understand her even more. I am reading the book of Mormon now to understand better. Thank you all for your kindness and courage and perspectives.
I am probably going to hell, but I took it from a hotel room once in Ypsilanti. I believe the statute of limitations has expired on this crime. Lol. I left Gideon because I know that one by heart.
@ITalkAboutBruno, they put those bibles there in hopes that someone will take it. I have a childhood friend who grew up Mormon too, and this podcast channel has also helped me immensely understand some things that were happening to her when we were young. I try not to mock the religion but knowing how it came to be a religion in the 1st place... it really urks me that people are sucked into this, so many times either becoming a victim or a victim maker, still now. It angers me and it hurts. God does not like this.
2:57 - absolutely Kevin needs to be held accountable for abandoning his children despite being under the influence of a cult figure. He knew Jodi was off mentally and he still allowed her around his children and even left the home. What person leaves his children with a mother who is part of a deranged cult and doesn’t even see those children for a year?? It is no wonder Utah put those kids in foster care rather than give Kevin custody. That is a man in serious need of a lot of therapy.
I remember when the first few Connextions videos came out. I listened because I follow the entire family (E+J, Drew Crew, Bonnie) and I wanted to see if this therapist would help me become a better mother. My son was 1 at the time and the more i listened, the more my instincts said this wasn’t for me. Even if this 1 year old grew up to become a “troubled” teen, it just didn’t sound right. Now that all THIS has come out, I’m glad I followed my instincts.
So happy you followed your gut and stopped listening to the crap they spew. Now can I encourage you to stop following & supporting the rest of the family (Bonnie, Julie etc)?? Something is just so strange with them… the child exploitation and the family practices are so similar to how Ruby parented her kids before and right after Jodi came into the picture. Of course you can do what you want but at least wanted to mention it! ♥️
I’m a 65 year old grandmother of 3 and have no idea why “sex” has always been the enemy. It’s insane! Sex feels good and pleasure is good for you…. Mormons are more hung up on sex than they are on murder!
My mother considers herself a “sex-positive Catholic feminist” (yes, that is as complicated as it sounds). Growing up, she told me that sex was supposed to be enjoyable, otherwise God’s plan for being fruitful and multiplying would be much harder to fulfill
I totally agree it’s child sexual abuse. As an SA survivor, I was made to feel disgusting over and over again. It shaped so much of my self hatred. That something I had no control over made me bad in the eyes of god. It creates really unhealthy dynamics in relationships, especially if you stay in the church.
@@floraposteschild4184 most groups want to keep sex education out of schools purely because they think its impure and would rather their children remain ignorant. That is 1000000000x worse. sex education should be studied, regulated, and constantly updated. Moving it to unknown & unregulated spaces is a nightmare.
I’m blown away that a man who is a university professor and father would let this happen. He rarely mentioned his kids during that interview … it was really odd.
Natasha, thank you for making clear your position that you do see KF as having accountability. It’s been concerning to me to see a trend for KF to come out of this as victim. Anyone who has watched this family has to realise that’s not the case here - I understand how hard it is within communities where you have friendships and connections (no pun intended) but that’s also the danger of our communities (I’m not LDS I’m Catholic and I get how John feels here and the strain of getting the balance right - I’ve been in the same position and I have great sympathy and respect for John). In this case I think it’s a misstep for John to make the KF disclaimer - because KF should be open to criticism. Natasha you speaking up and making that point meant a lot to me as a survivor of childhood trauma.
Kevin Franke won’t ever be open to change and criticism if he’s only ever talked about as being a monster. Criticism can come in the form of empathy as well. Empathize for the human who didn’t stand a chance after a life of Mormon conditioning, who was deprived of the tools to parent in a healthy way, who’s sense of right and wrong was so thoroughly crippled he perpetrated abuse under the belief it was good. He didn’t have a chance. He either didn’t have anyone in his life who could help him or he was so far gone he pushed them all away. All of that is tragic. It just is. Imagine how different his life would be if someone like Natasha intervened instead of Jodi. That is why these discussions are important and why reading out his rap sheet of transgressions (while valid) limits our ability to engage with the circumstances and understand how all these various influences and choices culminated in such a terrifying escalation abuse and trauma. It’s possible to have these discussions without letting him off the hook.
@@neurotika But there is a balance to be struck which was not done. Watching Kevin's interviews, he clearly showed more concern for Ruby, while being unconcerned about the poor kids. If people don't hold him accountable, it seems unlikely that he will hold himself accountable. And if he does not, his kids remain in danger. There is no one to stop others from harming them in the face of his passivity and lack of paternal instinct.
Was anyone else really alarmed by the fact that Jody suggested she had multiple "possessions", a "haunted" house, and reportedly "self-mutilated" arms? What in the seven hells was going on in her head? I would love to know more about this....
I think she has serious mental illness and heavy emotional energy surrounded her. Self harm is serious. I believe she was very closeted, bitter, depressed (clinical depression) and angry and took it out on everyone around her. When people have mental illness, many times religious fervor comes into play and she took it to an extreme. It was unchecked Hyperreligiosity.
@@amymurch yes! I can't remember the specifics, but Jordan & McKay, and I think Mormon Stories, have discussed Jodi's connection to VOG and its author. I think she was suffering from mental illness and believed she was having the same kinds of experiences detailed in VOG. Jodi seems to have a dangerous combination of spiritual psychosis, delusions of grandeur, systemic support from the LDS church, and other harmful traits.
Jodi offered a solution to “fix” children & marriages. Mormonism offers a solution for happiness, salvation & eternal families. BEWARE of any person or system that promises a simple solution to real, complex & messy life experiences. It sounds easy & appealing to have a “plan,” but you’re just avoiding the cost up front of inevitable future trauma. Years of therapy, complex PTSD symptoms, de-programming along with pernicious, pervasive lifelong battles with shame, guilt, anxiety and depression.
I just listened to Kevin talking to the police for the second time. Not once does he express grief for how horrible the children were treated. He sounds like a very immature adult. He didn't even try to stand up for his children or himself. He definitely sounds like a teenage boy, not a man. I hope the kids are never given back to him. He can't even take care of himself.
AA saved my life but also I don’t follow the idea that I have a disease. I don’t focus on not drinking, I focus on living a healthy happy life, to be of service and to be true to Me.
With all the craziness that he witnessed how in the hell could this man then conclude that it was a good idea to agree to move out of his home at the direction of this crazy women and leave his children behind.
22:32 I absolutely love how she held Kevin’s role, even if he wasn’t the main perpetrator, that he still needs to home held accountable for his own personal problematic behavior and parenting choices. Perfect way of explaining it in n a mature and respectful way.
"If you ever study cults, the leaders are rarely super handsome, charismatic, intelligent people. They're goobers! They're weird!" Oh, John! LOL! I laughed out loud! Just tell it like it is, John Dehlin!
Janae, I remember being on that group phone call when Jodi said that to you. I always enjoyed talking to you. I support and agree with everything you’re saying about your experiences. I too got so bamboozled by her - emotionally and financially. I loved watching you.💕
It was almost like Pam, Jodi, were vrying towards forming a female group. They were priming Ruby into this" company". Very little of what they did promoted good relationships. I agree with Kevin that they were anti-male involvement. However, this was supported by his lack of participation in parenting his children and in birth control. He let them make him the problem. Without actually identifying what really wasn't working in their relationship and family. This was close enough relationship that Ruby trusted Pam to take her children to keep them LE. Jessi knew Pam well. Kevin did not choose to see what a threat Jodi and Pam were to his children. Why I am concerned about their well-being. That they have been brain washed into not thinking or questioning others motivation. They did not feel any need to reach out even to dad to help their younger siblings. This is where I am mad at Kevin for. He cut off all communication with his children. Today it is a greater sin because we have cellphones. Parents are told of the threats to children. Especially daughters rely on father's protection. Girls are especially vulnerable when fathers are not a visable in their everyday lives. Watch the video of police finding teens that Pam and Roy's had at that home. She was evasive and truly believed Ruby had the right to farm out her children as domestic servants. The girls were taught this was their role in life. That care demands service. That being cared for was not an adult obligation. That isn't true. Being helpful is good but it comes with limits. Responsibility is limited. Children have so much to learn based on age appropriateness. They are not born to serve their parents.
@@lsun5322She was a cult leader, in my opinion. She achieved that status years prior. She would have become an actual LDS leader if a man, most likely. 😢
THANK YOU for saying that you don't consider Kevin to be blameless. Based on what has been made available to the public, while I don't know whether he could be considered legally to blame, he certainly is guilty of failing to protect his children. Granted from an outsider's perspective it's easy to criticize but I truly believe that no matter how understanding we try to be, he had a duty to step in long before law enforcement got involved.
Kevin was part of my faith crisis. Preaching about 2008 Californing Prop 8 gay marriage law.... in Priesthood meeting!!! I was so cringed out that he was bringing it up in a very inappropriate setting and was enthusiastic about it. That was my last ward.
But apparently Kevin is a friend of Mormon Stories and they're actually sending him well wishes with a promise not to "go after" him. That's reserved for the his co-conspirators.
@@raincadeify well this whole scenario for the last two years, he seems to be more victim than perp. But I don’t think Kevin and Ruby arrived where they were just because of Jodi. They were already on the more extreme orthodox side of believing in the church anyway.
@@honeybearcares They were doing child abuse. I don't think that's the same as Mormon orthodoxy. Did you see the stuff from their channel? That's all pre Jodi, and Kevin participated. They should have had someone to help them but, but they had two adults against them; I don't understand why Kevin's not in jail too.
@@raincadeifyyes I was really thrown by the well wishes. I have great sympathy for John because I know how hard it is with all the connections in our religious communities… but honestly the well wishing comment is an unintended slap in the face to the victims here. KF is not blameless.
@@raincadeify They were connected with Jodi while they had the channel. A lot of Ruby's most controversial statements and actions that got her channel shut down are philosophies she learned from Jodi.
I think Natasha's point about abuse is correct because it teaches kids that their normal biological functions are evil and bad. It is the ultimate form of gaslighting and shaming.
This was so beneficial. I wrote the final paper for my trauma course on Ruby & Jodi. I’ve experienced a much different version of AA. There are no leaders, it’s on the traditions. What I will say is there’s thousands of mtngs & thus, can vary. Finding ones with ppl your age or that you can relate to & even running the dynamic against the BITE modem could be valuable. I’ve had an amazing experienced, I got 2 w/ ppl mostly 25-40, super open minded & not religious. 💜
BS on fathers not being expected to do more than financially support their children. Kevin absolutely neglected his obligations as a father. Had he even met with them on an occasional basis to maintain a relationship and made sure they were doing OK this would not have happened. He is utterly disturbing in his interviews, inquiring after Ruby's well-being and advocating for her in the total absence of expressing any concern for his poor abused children. He seems to not own his utter neglect and I feel that the kids are not safe in his care if he does not do so. What is to stop him from passively serving them up on a platter to another abuser? This podcast is sickening. The Mormon church was not responsible for the trauma these kids suffered, but their mother and father.
I think there’s deception in Kevin’s story. During his first police interview, he said he’d never gone to Jodi’s and that Jodi was a good person. He also could have lied about the objects flying around, etc. Jodi is manipulative, a grifter. Her “possession” could have been an act to gain sympathy, attention, money, more clients, etc. And she could have resorted to trickery to cause noises, things flying around, etc. All known poltergeist cases have been debunked at this point. In famous cases, years after events, people confess that they used trickery as children and adults believed them. On the other hand, Jodi could have believed she was possessed and still embellished her story with trickery. If so, how did she miraculously recover? No one tortured the demons out of her like she felt had to be done with the children. This makes me think the whole thing was a ruse.
Agreed In my opinion Kevin was a victim in a sense, locked out. Locked out. But he tried to convict his own daughter of theft for grabbing items from the family home. This guy also has some horrifying reviews from his students at BYU. Many left his classes because he was so hostile and volatile. But, timeline unknown
Yes! I can never un-see that scene. This man who had voluntarily not seen his children for a year, wanted his eldest daughter arrested. He wasn’t concerned about the children, he was concerned that she had entered the family home and retrieved some things for her siblings and some electronics. Good fathers always demand the police arrest their children before they talk to the children directly, right? (Sarcasm)
Fwiw, when he was my professor for a class in 2020, I thought he was one of the best in the department (this is a really low bar, professors choose that job in order to do research, the couple classes they teach are generally a required nuisance, rather than a passion). Kevin was one of the few who seemed to put real effort in his classes and cared about interactions with students. That totally could have changed as his life became more unhinged the next couple years, but he seemed too timid to really flip out at students (think your stereotypical nerdy engineer personality). I'd believe homophobic or other abrasive comments were possible given how conservative the school is though. I'd also believe the ratemyprofessor reviews were heavily manipulated by people who heard about the UA-cam channel, not from students. Tough to know.
@@alextemus I don't think his female students had that same experience. Jordan and McKay went through the reviews and only read the old ones from long before the arrests.
This story blew our minds! Can you imagine if little Russell, the HERO, hadn’t escaped? Unfortunately religious fanatics are becoming more and more extreme in their crazy behaviors and there is so much suffering that could’ve been avoided! Thank you to MS for bringing all this to light!
I have never been a Mormon. I saw John Dehlin on Cults to Consciousness. I only came to Mormon Stories because of my experience with Latter Day Saints Missionaries. I am really glad that I subscribed and watch Mormon Stories frequently. You have given me the vocabulary to understand what I am going through. I am going through a faith transition. I like the long detailed interviews because I have learned so much....not so much about Mormonism but how damaging being part of a patriarchal religious sect has been to me. Natasha Helfer's sexual health information has really been eye opening. I would not have defined myself as a victim of the purity culture because I never experienced the weird purity culture rituals that exist today. She enlightened me by making me aware that I was deeply ashamed of normative sexual behavior. I thought I was righteously ashamed of my "sinful' sexual behavior. I thought feeling lust was shameful. My Christian sect just like the later day saints believed that to just think a "sinful" thought was to do the actual act. My mind is changing. I appreciate Mormon Stories. I appreciate your long form.
Joseph smith the leader of his church spoke to not do things but he was doing them himself. Same as Jody H. Giving treatment to people that she was doing sinister things.
Natasha’s insight is so valuable. As clinicians we are trained to try to explore and understand why people engage in harmful/destructive behavior-whether or not such behaviors are directed at others or toward themselves. Circumstances, beliefs, etc. do not justify harmful behavior. But we can hold space for two (or more) conflicting truths at once. Kevin is a victim and also contributed to abuse/harm of his kids. I understand the outrage and anger, I feel it too. I also have empathy for Kevin. Growing up in a high control religion perpetuates abuse in all forms. I hope the Franke family finds healing one day. I’ll absolutely be checking out CEs with Natasha. My counseling brain was fangirling over her clinical knowledge and expertise throughout this entire episode!
Thank you for calling out AA methods. I was deeply hurt, shamed and abandoned after months of being practically love bombed by the “caring community”. Only caring and inclusive when I was a good girl towing the party line. For me, it was a high demand group and I was excommunicated because I questioned some of their approach and beliefs. My “sponsor” was a controlling and unstable person, but I was told she had to have full access to all of my deepest darkest secrets, so her rejection of me after I chose to trust her without her having earned any of that trust… it hurt. It behaves exactly like a cult. Some good results yes but at what personal cost
I thought to try AA, not because I couldn't not drink, but because I used it as an avoidance tactic. I did not experience love bombing. I was met very coolly and not really welcomed, so I didn't go back. I handled it without them.
@@annamineer2521 from my experience, the “in crowd” in meetings don’t like when someone doesn’t claim absolute powerlessness over alcohol and it’s a non negotiable that you choose to believe you have a terminal disease of alcoholism. It encourages and breeds dependency on the program for life. If you don’t agree and claim you know yourself what the flaws in your drinking are, you will be labelled as in denial. It’s agree totally to belong, or don’t belong at all. I don’t believe I am an alcoholic, but I have like you used it to escape my cptsd.
I am sorry that was your experience. How damaging it must be to trust and then be rejected like that. I try to remember that they are JUST people in recovery themselves. Take what's good and leave the rest of the mumbo-jumbo. I hope you are well and living your best life.
For years my husband and his brothers hated their mother and blamed her for the abuse. But the more i listened and paid attention to what had happened it was the stepfather that was behind the abuse. And in the end he was the one that caused the finally beating that the kids were taken away... but yet they still blamed the mother and praised the father as the hero. What father eats steak and has their kids go hungry in front of them....the abuser thats who. Who neglects his wife when she is in need but an abuser.... To look from a different lens the truth will come to light. Stop giving Kevin a pass...
Note about wilderness camps: yes there are predators, but there are also a lot of people who take kids out in harsh conditions where several kids have died from exposure to extreme heat or cold, lack of hydration, and other things the workers weren’t equipped to handle.
The children were put through the no win situation of pleasing Jodi and Ruby that Kevin describes. This is truly a vicious cycle. These women should stay incarcerated for the maximum number of years.
John Dehlin. You are bad! Im bcoming ADDICTED to your video programs. I cant functiin withou 3 or 4 videos a day & its getting worse Dr John. I need your help. Do you have any suggestions? I even take my phone to bed. What is your diagnosis? Help
I am also addicted to these videos, and there is also Cult to Continuous. I take it to bed, kitchen and.....the bathroom. I don't think there is a cure for me! Keep up the good work ❤️
Thank you, I am not the only one 😂😂😂. I am not a Mormon, never was, but addicted to this channel. I am learning so much. I guess my evangelical background explains my fascination for the topic.
Thank you so much for those. All 3 of you had super valuable insights on this layered topic. John, I saw Book of Mormon last Friday & afterwards I was explaining some of the background to it based on all my time learning on this channel. Couldn’t help but wonder what the church did when they learned of & watched that musical take off. I tried to find an episode about it but didn’t.
That was the height of their 'I'm a Mormon' campaign (when saying Mormon wasn't a victory for Satan). They actually leaned into the musical taking ads out in the playbills saying something like 'Now that you're seen the musical, experience the real thing.'
Thank you for interrupting and calling out what is obvious to most of us, such as a ‘therapist’ kicking you out of your own home, not to mention the financial repercussions of that, these ‘leaders’ backing up Jodi and her therapies, so gross all of it. And Kevin does not get a pass, he’s so checked out on so many levels. But he is not without fault, he stood by and watched what was happening and never said no.
My ex-husband was employed by LDS Social Services as a marriage and family therapist and serving in our ward Bishopric. Every Bishop in the stake and the Stake President was referring all the ward members to him for therapy during that time, for marriage conflict, depression, anxiety, etc. Imagine how betrayed those members felt when they found out the therapist they were going to for guidance and support was a fraud. He was having an affair with his therapy client and also hiring sex workers and having one night stands with random women he met in bars.
Isn't Pam also the one that Ruby profusely apologized to during her statement to the court? Something like not wanting her to look bad or be associated to the CA in any way.
I am torn on my opinions of Kevin. I see him as a victim in a lot of ways. As a man in the church, when you are told that you are basically weak, pathetic, incapable, and simply a bad husband and father for having completely normal sexual desires, it can take a huge beating on your confidence, self-worth, and critical reasoning skills! I feel that between the church and Jodi, he was made to feel undeserving as a father, which is probably why he kept the distance that he did. However, there definitely should’ve been more interaction and introspection, more connection with the kids to see how they were doing, etc.
He was a well-respected professor who put a lot of effort in his classes and travelled constantly for geotechnical engineering projects and research (earth foundations for buildings, mines, earthquakes, etc.). I only say that to add that I think he chose to be away a lot and ignore problems at home too - both connection and worthiness issues in the eyes of Ruby and himself, and parenting issues.
John has the best, most soothing podcast voice. I am interested in the topics but sometimes I put on his podcast to get soothed to sleep. Then I have to listen again during the day. Best voice
Yes! Ravenously craving ice and tomatoes is a common sign of anaemia. And anaemia is very common in people with a menstrual cycle! In some families it's even genetic to a degree.
@@merrydaye4763 per the Mayo Clinic “Craving and chewing ice, known as pagophagia, is often associated with iron deficiency, with or without anemia, although the reason is unclear.”
My mom went to a "pray the depression away" christian "therapist" (he was unlicensed); and when I went to my relatively large church for a sexual/domestic violence survivor support group, they directed me to AA (I was stone cold sober when the assault happened). Organized religious groups need to stop pretending they are equipped to help in these arenas. Stick to being supportive by creating community.
They have been sentenced, but Utah has different sentencing guidelines than most states. They are sentenced to 4-30 years and the Parole Board will determine when they are released. The files were released after their 30 day window of appeal had closed.
I can attest to the deluded mormon obsession with purity. I was born and raised mormon, and when I was in 5th grade, I got childhood cancer. I did come close to dying, but I beat it, and I'm in my 40s now. My parents found out when I was a teen that my boyfriend and I were having sex. (like teens do) My dad, in the midst of an argument about my virginity, told me he wished I would have died when I had cancer because then I would have gone straight to heaven. Now, there's no hope for me, and my only place after death is hell. That was one of the most hurtful things I have ever been told. My parents wished I would have died. Now they wonder why I don't speak to them or go to church.
I have followed Dr. David Ley and Nicole Prouse for several years. I appreciate their evidence based critiques on sex addictions. Every once in a while David shares questions from sex addiction inventories. Things like (the gist) - have you ever had sex to release stress or tension? Science tells us that sex and masturbation help release stress and tension. Who hasn’t done this? How is this question used to measure “addiction”? Well, there are only a couple ways it makes sense. The belief that sex is only partaken in for procreation is one.
How can a witch like that mistreat so many children for so long without the husband being any wiser? It is hard to believe he did not have any knowledge of what was going on.
For a period of time he was completely cut off from the children, so I believe he didn't know the worst of it but it was absolutely his responsibility to have been attempting to contact them, checking in with family etc and he did nothing as far as we know. I think he valued his marriage more than his children.
@@Teajay21 He knew enough to know that his children experienced something bad and needed his love and support. Any decent parent would be asking repeatedly about the welfare of the children.
the way Kevin talks about the UA-cam cancelling is really disturbing he speaks like there was no justification for it. People were rightly concerned about their children and for their basic welfare ie access to food and healthcare even under those circumstances those worries were legitimate and justified and all he can talk about is the effect it had on ruby
All this time, I thought Alma was a woman (it is a woman’s name in Spanish), and now I learn it’s a man! So much for crediting Mormonism with some trace of feminism!
Thank you for saying that no one has the right to tell you to leave your home. My son and his wife were not getting along. My son had a brain tumor that had resurfaced after an operation...He also had another brain injury. He was going down fast. He'd just had an operation on his back and was always in pain it seemed to me. He and his wife came to my apartment and my son's head was blown up almost twice it's size...My son did not know how he got that except to say he thinks he fell out of bed, or a seizure. He was like a wound sheep. When he was strong and working, bringing home the money his wife was so fine with him having a beer but now he could not do anything right. She wanted him out and a divorce. He was heart broken....There was so many symptoms to his wounds...He took his life insurance and put it out so she could see it and shot himself in the head and died. My heart will always be broken...He was not perfect...But She wanted him out when he should have been on palliative care...I believe. After he died she couldn't say enough good things about him.
Kevin, if you're reading this, it's not my place or other watchers to go after you for abusing your children, even when you were doing it as much as Ruby when you had your UA-cam channel, before Jodi, but I wish the law chases you instead, because it is the law's place and they should been doing it after your part in hurting your children...have a nice day :)
I listened live last night, but have to listen again because there was so much covered. I laughed out loud at the point you talked about Jodi adapting the AA model but adding a 13th step. In AA there is already an unofficial 13th step which is sleeping with someone in the group. 😂😂😂
In what way is Kevin any different than any other parent who passively allows or ignores when the other parent abuses their children? Most cases of abuse feature this dynamic. Are you all saying that modern mainstream Mormonism teaches that the father has no obligation to his kids beyond financial support? This man knew of the craziness brewing and had not right NOT to keep regular contact with his kids regardless of what Ruby wanted. And to "go easy" on someone in this situation due to relationship is precisely what perpetuates abuse and neglect. Almost always people beyond the actual abuser knows or suspects, people care more about the adults than the helpless children. Shameful to have this attitude.
Dr. Dehlin, I know you know this, but regarding self-$arm, one of the main reason people report doing it is because the physical pain dulls the emotional pain.
As a member of a 12 step program for more than 16 years, it drives me insane that Jodi and others like her compare their cons to AA. 12 step programs are free and have no leaders. They aren’t perfect, but they save lives.
I'm still disturbed knowing Ruby may only serve 4yrs. Kevin being in a grey area has alot to overcome. Everything about this has been shocking. Don't see anything changing.
Love this discussion sooo much! Thank you. Also thank you John for defending AA there a little bit.. I don’t think anyone can understand how much it helps people unless you are an actual self admitted alcoholic/addict. I wouldn’t compare it to Jodie’s classes in anyway.
Another great show with great guests. I appreciate the explanation of the layers to be found under the surface of abuse by people like Jody, Ruby, the Daybells, etc. I try to always mention the podcast in comment sections of other creators covering these cases because it brings so much deeper understanding.
Kevin is at fault as well! His behavior should be questioned. He allowed terrible things to happen to his own kids long before jodi came along. He was there supporting the abuse while they had their YT channel. He allowed and participated in the abuse. He is not innocent! Kevin proved he would not protect himself nor protect his kids then plays victim. I’m so tired of these men of the church getting let off the hook. He has a lot of blame in this. He was hurting those kids before they met Jodi. This episode irritated me to no end. Luckily the therapist had some sense.
I don’t know how you can excuse Kevin Frank’s. He is just as responsible as anybody else if not more, the fact that they exploited their children makes him the responsible party. He put them out on the Internet and he sat back and watch the whole thing go down, so to excuse him is unacceptable and pretty surprising!
I’m curious how Jodi earned her Masters in Educational Psychology and became the go to person about sex addiction? She didn’t have her PhD. Wouldn’t her clinical education be in the Education system, doing assessments and learning how to help in an Education setting. How did she qualify for her Board. Since she didn’t have a PhD, she wasn’t a Psychologist, but a Psychotherapist. (I’m from another country and only University Profs, PhD and PsyD are Psychologists)How did she get out of her wheelhouse?
I think bc she lost her therapists license, she realized she could be a life coach, or "mental fitness trainer," and just make up stuff that she couldn't get in trouble for since she was no longer a therapist under the supervision of licensing.
Just a thought: how did George Santos become a US representative with all the lies and fraud he's done along the way? Sometimes people are just good at lying and sometimes start to even believe they're own lies.
The stuff about accountability buddies is taken from the sponsorship concept in 12 Step programs. Calling another addict/alcoholic when in distress or when tempted to relapse is also common advice in the 12 Step world.
He made a good point, though! ! I’ve noticed the same thing about cult leaders. They’re either total goobers, creepy or even downright repulsive. Why do people fall for their schtick?
Chad got kicked out of his room for playing a prank on his brother. That his own mother kicks hogties starves with glee. When Jodi is not even there according to her diary.
An LDS 12 step program done in this context is really off center. Alcoholics Anonymous is not therapy, as a matter of fact, one of the premises of the group is that we are not there to fix each other. There is no cross talk allowed. We gather to share our individual experiences as a way to show people who are in the thick of it that they can recover. The Steps are personal. They are done by yourself and people are encouraged to share either with a counselor or clergy or a sponsor from within the group. The sponsor is not supposed to be a therapist. But a sounding board. There is a wonderful community to be found there.
Here to respectfully comment that while 12 step programs CAN be as good as you describe, they are often not that at all. I had multiple experiences of shaming and coercion. It was very bad for me.
@@stevedorecharley2849 Absolutely, this does happen sometimes, each group tends to have its own "flavor". I stopped going to one particular group because of that. They can also be gossipy. Having said that, if they are truly practicing the 12 traditions (as a healthy group should) they are less likely to be judgmental. Remember, AA is certainly about the 12;steps, but there are the 12; traditions, and 12 concepts. Steps are for the individual, traditions are for the group, and concepts are for AA as a whole. If those things are out of sync, then the group suffers. When the founders of AA began to meet, there were a number of different iterations, but over time with sobriety and the wisdom that comes with it Bill Wilson and Bob Smith were able to really hone in to the precepts that have led millions to sobriety. Myself being one of them. AA doesn't cost a thing, there is no pressure to put money in the basket, there is no one person in charge.
I was in a weight based program in the past, and to be a full part of the group, I had to have a sponsor. I chose a woman who was a speaker at a district meeting, but lived in another city. I was calling her at 6 am daily to check in. On day 4 she told me that at one point we wod be talking about my sexual fantasies. I was shocked and never called her again. I was in the group with her sister who was really rude and judgmental after this. I quit the group after a few weeks as it was NOT being run well and was full of people with personality issues.
What a fantastic and riveting episode! Great job to all. It’s hard to understand how Kevin could fall prey to Jodi’s tactics UNLESS you have an intimate & personal understanding of LDS culture & theology. Every single dyed-in-the-wool devout Mormon is a potential victim to cults, because they are IN a cult already themselves, oftentimes ignorantly. If you grow up LDS you have no idea how controlled you are until you’re out. Kevin is going to need some intense detox therapy not only from what Jodi and Ruby did to him, but from the Mormon church in general.
Keep beating that drum John that the church excommunicated you, Natasha, and Sam Young while keeping Jodi Hildebrandt in confidence and tacitly, if not openly, endorsing her for years. That needs to continue to be called out.
Great interview!
L
THIS! There is nothing the "church" fears more than the truth and those who speak it. Access to the internet from private homes was the worst thing to happen to them, because those who wanted and cared about the truth suddenly had access to those their "church" has always kept hidden. 😢
My therapist would not even accept a jar of honey. I definitely wasn’t trying to “sugar” her up. Lol. I was just excited to share my first batch of the season but she politely refused taking it. It made sense.
Amen!!!
Amen!!
Please, please, PLEASE stop giving Kevin a pass. I don’t think he’s responsible for the level of abuse that the kids went through towards the end, but he sure as hell was a big part of the abuse from their 8 passengers channel.
Taking away a child’s food, bed, autonomy is abuse. Just because he didn’t hog tie the kids and make them work in the blistering sun, it doesn’t absolve him of allowing the early stages of abuse happening in the years leading up to these horrible crimes.
Please call him out on this. I beg.
Agreed, treating him with this kindness just grosses me out. He was there participating in his children’s abuse long before Jodi came along. He was a checked out father and even if you’re not doing the hands on abusing, watching it, letting it happen and advocating for it is just as bad. Glad the therapist has some sense. This episode really irritated me.
Well said! Also let’s not forget that on 2 separate occasions he pressured the police to charge his own daughter with trespassing … because she was taking care of HIS kids!
Agreed
I agree…also Kevin basically abandoned his kids for a year. He never once checked on their wellbeing knowing that Jodi behaviour was problematic. It really is shameful.
Agreed! And as far as I am concerned, he allowed what happened to happen- where was he? What kind of father walks away from his children for so long?! He knew that something was very wrong with Jodi and Ruby’s relationship and he did nothing. That’s not innocent.
I'm really glad that Natasha kept pointing out that Kevin is at fault as well. So many people are ignoring his part in his children's care and even painting him as a victim in the entirety of the situation, which he isn't.
Kevin Always sounded far more concerned about his abusive wife than his kids.
Complicit and parental neglect!
Yea, Kevin is a bit of a goober, too. He helped create and carry out the abuse while he lived with them. The only thing he’s not guilty of is whatever happened after he was kicked out.
💯
When she was takin into custody, they interviewed the father. He claimed he had no idea of the abuse, and he had not seen his children for a year!!! Why ??
It is MUCH more damaging to a child for their parent to watch another person abuse and actively ignore that abuse. This is betrayal at the highest level.
Yep. I was a teen when I started going to therapy and I processed my bitterness over abuse from my dad. As soon as I felt compassion for him as a human (not absolving him from blame, but understanding him more) I felt like a mountain of bitterness towards my mom was unleashed. Why didn't she save me from him? Why didn't she remove me from that house? Why didn't she put me (and my sibling) first?
It's been a long time and I have a much better relationship with both of my parents now, but there have been times when going low contact was the best option for me and I fully support anyone who feels that estrangement is their only option. The betrayal is so deep, and those scars truly never leave you, you just learn to live in a different way.
My heart breaks for the kids. I was abused and 30 years later my adopted father's brother and sister in law confirmed the abuse and admitted they never reported it. It's opened a whole new can of worms.
@@WitchOracleI had the same issue growing up. My mom just stood by and allowed us to be abused by an out-of-control husband and I had a lot of anger towards her that I had to work through. What Kevin has done is just as abusive, and the fact that they’re sitting here letting him off the hook makes me sick. I’m glad the therapist has some sense.
Natasha is right....imposing beliefs on a child is child abuse. I love that Natasha is BRAVE enough to say difficult things.
Yeah she is amazing! I was watching and wishing I was in US and could go to her as a therapist!
Before Kevin moved out, there’s absolutely no way he didn’t know what was going on. He is complicit with all of it.
I've been following this case since last year, so thank you Natasha for saying that Kevin isn't blameless in all of this! I was shocked to hear that they were promising not to go too hard on him, in part due to personal relationships. But your personal relationship to him shouldn't absolve the part that he played in the abuse of his children and his continued protection of Ruby up until her conviction. Even before Jodi was in the picture, he not only went along with Ruby's cruelty but he also contributed to the emotional, physical, and mental abuse and exploitation of his children. It's all on video. He was present and allowed it to happen. And when Jodi was in the picture, his absence and negligence allowed for the abuse to continue to escalate. Kevin, if you're reading this, you have a lot of accountability to take in the abuse of your children. Two things can be true at once. Mormon indoctrination may have influenced your decision making and your parenting, but there is still individual responsibility in the part that you played.
I was never taught what she did while part of the LDS Church.
Never Mormon here, and I am SO glad to hear Natasha call out 12 step programs. I had serious trauma at their hands, and it’s very hard for me to listen to glowing praise from people when I was treated to coercion and control tactics that harmed me for years. There was no way to fight back because I would be accused of being in denial or being uncooperative whenever I questioned anything. It was terrible.
At this point, someone usually tells me to try different groups because they don’t all fit. I did. And there’s no convincing me 12 step groups aren’t “religious.” Their main book is loaded with god language, and even courts have determined they’re religious. I cannot stomach their principles and the way they blame victims.
Some disjointed points in response to your post: here are sick people everywhere, inclusive of in 12 Step programs; I have experienced them, as well, especially where the program is weak. I lived in part of a large city that was politically liberal for 18 years, so the people who would have done cultish stuff were probably afraid to pull their tactics. I never heard blaming of victims. There is a big difference between spirituality and organized religion.
Yes! 12 step especially AA has a high rate of failure. I think sometimes John is out of touch.
Yes 28 yrs here in aa , 9 years I was controlled by a VERY strict sponsor! Controlled me by shame and fear if I didn’t follow her exactly, I’d drink again. Recovering now in aca which allows me to love myself ❤️
I've heard a lot of bad stuff around AA, but I will say ACA Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families was not that way at all. It's about healing shame, not discussing your behaviors.
12-step programs are not cults. If they were, people would do what they’re told! 😂 I’m a big fan of 12-step programs. In my experience (& I have experience with “high-control” groups as well), they are spiritual, not religious. If your group or sponsor is too rigid or pushy in that regard, find another one. they have transformed my life, inside & out. I have a relationship with the God of my understanding. No one dictates to me or those I am close to, what that should be or that it even SHOULD be. Everyone finds their own way.
There needs to be a forensic accounting investigation into the links between Connexions & insurance from LDS
More importantly, did she accept any federal funds such as Medicare or Medicaid for her services.
@@lisalemonjello1462Excellent point.
Agreed. The only way this would happen is if federal investigators were tasked with it. Law enforcement in The Theocracy of Utah is too corrupt.
Precisely
Insurance fraud
In re: masturbation, I have three sons. I took them aside as teenagers and told them privately, that it was normal, natural, everyone does it, and they shouldn't be ashamed of it. All I asked is that they kept it private and cleaned up after themselves (lol). And that if the bishop ever asked them about it, they had my permission, in this one instance, to lie. And I was fully TBM at the time. But that's how strongly I felt that the Church's attitude towards masturbation was wrong and damaging.
Thank heavens for someone being moderate. This "therapist" that says you shouldn't put limits on that activity is AS extreme as those that try to tell kids that they should never do it. I've told my son that if he can't keep it private and clean he shouldn't be doing it until he can. I don't want to see that....as you said, it's no one elses business unless they choose to make it someone elses business. A good momma!
Your attitude must have made them feel validated; good for you. I think I would consider telling them to tell the bishop that they chose to not discuss that topic with him, and that if he needed to, he could go to you. That would have supported their setting boundaries and built self-esteem; it feels awful to lie.
not a Mormon, but a Bible believing Christian. I have 3 boys and can't imagine my Pastor asking my boys a question like that. it sounds sick . I'm not bashing in anyway, but not being raised Mormon it's just so difficult to hear and understand 😢
@@jewellee2363catholic priests did more than just ask private questions.
@@SKeane-jb6uj yup! all organized religion
I'm glad Natasha Helfer added that qualifier. Kevin had a responsibility to protect his kids and failed to do so.
Kevin was also a part of their lives and youtube channel, when Ruby threatened with scissors to CUT OFF THE HEAD of their young daughter's stuffed toy. Her cries of fear and despair in that video are haunting.
As someone who followed their cancellation on YT, you guys are being way too kind on the Frankes. Ruby was abusing the kids and Kevin was ignoring it is the best interpretation. At a minimum, that's what their channel showed. However, both parents felt fully involved in various means of control that alarmed the viewers of their videos. He never stopped her. That active decision to not intervene IS a choice.
Yes, Kevin is a victim, and I'd argue that Ruby is also a victim of Jody's, but they are both parents who left their children in a situation where they could be starved.
There's no excusing a parent who doesn't protect their kids. The pass Kevin is being given in this is because he isn't being treated as a primary parent. ETA: Ok, glad the lady therapist called it out.
I feel like they become sadistic and enjoy It.
This is an EXCELLENT and very differentiated comment.
Kevin Franke is finally being called out for his part in this entire horror story.
yes and they show off their kids privacy on the internet for money many many years. and now they wasting the money for their lawyers😑😑
Yes, Kevin is worse, because he stay back and says he never did anything. Yes you did, you allowed to happen.
I disagree with kevin being an instigator. Counselors are held up to too-high a standard, like doctors. People think counselors know what they are doing, know it all, and give them too much authority. He tried to do what he was counseled to do. Thinking it was the best for his kids because the counselor said so. She, the counselor, is off the wall.
Children have a right to touch their own bodies. And it’s none of anyone’s business. The end… children are human beings with autonomy.
Exactly.
The problem is their sick minds. Everything is a no no. Anything that is that harsh is not good to anyone's growth. We wind up as a disfunction adults. I remember Kevin saying that Ruby didn't wanted to dress lingeries. That's something someone put in her mind it is bad. Sick and twisted. Who knows is she wasn't abused as a child? Not saying she should abuse others, better yet, be against all kinds of abuse. She missed the opportunity to be a good parent. If she only went to the right doctors. Or maybe she is beyond help.
Uuuhphp
I disagree.....if they choose time and place poorly when they are old enough to know better. Are you going to sit and watch your 13 year old son pleasure himself? Anyone who is willing to do that will find themselves in jail soon enough. Enough said. Moderation people, not extremes.
@@WindsofChangeyou’re being a bit extreme. I think you know exactly what this commenter means when saying this. No one is saying what you just said 🙄
I am not a Mormon. Never have been. I will say, I learn so much from this podcast. I have a decades long friend who has continuing family struggles because of the LDS. This podcast helps me understand her even more. I am reading the book of Mormon now to understand better.
Thank you all for your kindness and courage and perspectives.
I am probably going to hell, but I took it from a hotel room once in Ypsilanti. I believe the statute of limitations has expired on this crime. Lol. I left Gideon because I know that one by heart.
@ITalkAboutBruno, they put those bibles there in hopes that someone will take it. I have a childhood friend who grew up Mormon too, and this podcast channel has also helped me immensely understand some things that were happening to her when we were young. I try not to mock the religion but knowing how it came to be a religion in the 1st place... it really urks me that people are sucked into this, so many times either becoming a victim or a victim maker, still now. It angers me and it hurts. God does not like this.
2:57 - absolutely Kevin needs to be held accountable for abandoning his children despite being under the influence of a cult figure. He knew Jodi was off mentally and he still allowed her around his children and even left the home. What person leaves his children with a mother who is part of a deranged cult and doesn’t even see those children for a year?? It is no wonder Utah put those kids in foster care rather than give Kevin custody. That is a man in serious need of a lot of therapy.
I remember when the first few Connextions videos came out. I listened because I follow the entire family (E+J, Drew Crew, Bonnie) and I wanted to see if this therapist would help me become a better mother. My son was 1 at the time and the more i listened, the more my instincts said this wasn’t for me. Even if this 1 year old grew up to become a “troubled” teen, it just didn’t sound right. Now that all THIS has come out, I’m glad I followed my instincts.
So happy you followed your gut and stopped listening to the crap they spew. Now can I encourage you to stop following & supporting the rest of the family (Bonnie, Julie etc)?? Something is just so strange with them… the child exploitation and the family practices are so similar to how Ruby parented her kids before and right after Jodi came into the picture. Of course you can do what you want but at least wanted to mention it! ♥️
I’m a 65 year old grandmother of 3 and have no idea why “sex” has always been the enemy. It’s insane! Sex feels good and pleasure is good for you…. Mormons are more hung up on sex than they are on murder!
BINGO, my fellow grandmother/nana. Yes, sex in a safe relationship is MAGNIFICENT. If it’s not, learn to do it better. 🌷
My mother considers herself a “sex-positive Catholic feminist” (yes, that is as complicated as it sounds). Growing up, she told me that sex was supposed to be enjoyable, otherwise God’s plan for being fruitful and multiplying would be much harder to fulfill
Totally agree ….
As long as all parties are of consenting age and willing
They take something that's so natural and beautiful and turn it to something nasty and dirty.
I totally agree it’s child sexual abuse. As an SA survivor, I was made to feel disgusting over and over again. It shaped so much of my self hatred. That something I had no control over made me bad in the eyes of god.
It creates really unhealthy dynamics in relationships, especially if you stay in the church.
It's why some groups want to keep sex education out of schools. It makes children more vulnerable, in every way.
@@floraposteschild4184 most groups want to keep sex education out of schools purely because they think its impure and would rather their children remain ignorant. That is 1000000000x worse.
sex education should be studied, regulated, and constantly updated. Moving it to unknown & unregulated spaces is a nightmare.
I’m blown away that a man who is a university professor and father would let this happen. He rarely mentioned his kids during that interview … it was really odd.
Natasha, thank you for making clear your position that you do see KF as having accountability. It’s been concerning to me to see a trend for KF to come out of this as victim. Anyone who has watched this family has to realise that’s not the case here - I understand how hard it is within communities where you have friendships and connections (no pun intended) but that’s also the danger of our communities (I’m not LDS I’m Catholic and I get how John feels here and the strain of getting the balance right - I’ve been in the same position and I have great sympathy and respect for John).
In this case I think it’s a misstep for John to make the KF disclaimer - because KF should be open to criticism.
Natasha you speaking up and making that point meant a lot to me as a survivor of childhood trauma.
Kevin Franke won’t ever be open to change and criticism if he’s only ever talked about as being a monster. Criticism can come in the form of empathy as well. Empathize for the human who didn’t stand a chance after a life of Mormon conditioning, who was deprived of the tools to parent in a healthy way, who’s sense of right and wrong was so thoroughly crippled he perpetrated abuse under the belief it was good. He didn’t have a chance. He either didn’t have anyone in his life who could help him or he was so far gone he pushed them all away. All of that is tragic. It just is. Imagine how different his life would be if someone like Natasha intervened instead of Jodi. That is why these discussions are important and why reading out his rap sheet of transgressions (while valid) limits our ability to engage with the circumstances and understand how all these various influences and choices culminated in such a terrifying escalation abuse and trauma.
It’s possible to have these discussions without letting him off the hook.
A
@@neurotika But there is a balance to be struck which was not done. Watching Kevin's interviews, he clearly showed more concern for Ruby, while being unconcerned about the poor kids. If people don't hold him accountable, it seems unlikely that he will hold himself accountable. And if he does not, his kids remain in danger. There is no one to stop others from harming them in the face of his passivity and lack of paternal instinct.
The idea of 'religious trauma' is so important for understanding your work. Thank you for this important discussion.
Was anyone else really alarmed by the fact that Jody suggested she had multiple "possessions", a "haunted" house, and reportedly "self-mutilated" arms? What in the seven hells was going on in her head? I would love to know more about this....
Wonder if she’s read Visions of Glory too because that’s scarily similar to Lori Vallow.
I think she has serious mental illness and heavy emotional energy surrounded her. Self harm is serious. I believe she was very closeted, bitter, depressed (clinical depression) and angry and took it out on everyone around her. When people have mental illness, many times religious fervor comes into play and she took it to an extreme. It was unchecked Hyperreligiosity.
@@amymurch yes! I can't remember the specifics, but Jordan & McKay, and I think Mormon Stories, have discussed Jodi's connection to VOG and its author. I think she was suffering from mental illness and believed she was having the same kinds of experiences detailed in VOG. Jodi seems to have a dangerous combination of spiritual psychosis, delusions of grandeur, systemic support from the LDS church, and other harmful traits.
@@EmmaFlorezI agree! Very well put.
@@amymurchNot only she knew Visions of Glory but she spoke at the same events as its purported author Tím Ballard.
Jodi offered a solution to “fix” children & marriages. Mormonism offers a solution for happiness, salvation & eternal families. BEWARE of any person or system that promises a simple solution to real, complex & messy life experiences. It sounds easy & appealing to have a “plan,” but you’re just avoiding the cost up front of inevitable future trauma. Years of therapy, complex PTSD symptoms, de-programming along with pernicious, pervasive lifelong battles with shame, guilt, anxiety and depression.
I wish your words didn't resonate with me so strongly 😞
@@derrickfolkmanman SAME.
I just listened to Kevin talking to the police for the second time. Not once does he express grief for how horrible the children were treated. He sounds like a very immature adult. He didn't even try to stand up for his children or himself. He definitely sounds like a teenage boy, not a man. I hope the kids are never given back to him. He can't even take care of himself.
Wow, the channel has really grown! I think doubled since I last watched an episode! Congrats John & Co.!
Thank you Natasha for not letting Kevin off the hook.
AA saved my life but also I don’t follow the idea that I have a disease. I don’t focus on not drinking, I focus on living a healthy happy life, to be of service and to be true to Me.
The irony of Jodie telling Janae she wasn't surprised her children misbehaved. Janae not in prison for child abuse.
With all the craziness that he witnessed how in the hell could this man then conclude that it was a good idea to agree to move out of his home at the direction of this crazy women and leave his children behind.
And that doesn't account for all the abuse the kids suffered from Kevin and Ruby before Jodi was on the scene. Kevin gets a pass apparently.
22:32 I absolutely love how she held Kevin’s role, even if he wasn’t the main perpetrator, that he still needs to home held accountable for his own personal problematic behavior and parenting choices. Perfect way of explaining it in n a mature and respectful way.
"If you ever study cults, the leaders are rarely super handsome, charismatic, intelligent people. They're goobers! They're weird!" Oh, John! LOL! I laughed out loud! Just tell it like it is, John Dehlin!
☺️
They wolves in sheep’s clothing, nothing good looking about that. 😡😡😡
Janae, I remember being on that group phone call when Jodi said that to you. I always enjoyed talking to you. I support and agree with everything you’re saying about your experiences.
I too got so bamboozled by her - emotionally and financially. I loved watching you.💕
Love that you’re here! Wasn’t that moment a trip!?!?😂
Sending you all love and prayers
It was almost like Pam, Jodi, were vrying towards forming a female group. They were priming Ruby into this" company". Very little of what they did promoted good relationships.
I agree with Kevin that they were anti-male involvement. However, this was supported by his lack of participation in parenting his children and in birth control. He let them make him the problem. Without actually identifying what really wasn't working in their relationship and family.
This was close enough relationship that Ruby trusted Pam to take her children to keep them LE.
Jessi knew Pam well. Kevin did not choose to see what a threat Jodi and Pam were to his children. Why I am concerned about their well-being. That they have been brain washed into not thinking or questioning others motivation. They did not feel any need to reach out even to dad to help their younger siblings. This is where I am mad at Kevin for. He cut off all communication with his children. Today it is a greater sin because we have cellphones. Parents are told of the threats to children. Especially daughters rely on father's protection.
Girls are especially vulnerable when fathers are not a visable in their everyday lives.
Watch the video of police finding teens that Pam and Roy's had at that home. She was evasive and truly believed Ruby had the right to farm out her children as domestic servants. The girls were taught this was their role in life. That care demands service. That being cared for was not an adult obligation. That isn't true.
Being helpful is good but it comes with limits. Responsibility is limited. Children have so much to learn based on age appropriateness. They are not born to serve their parents.
So true! Jessi Hildebrand said that they thought Jodi would have become a cult leader if she was a man and had the priesthood!
@@lsun5322She was a cult leader, in my opinion. She achieved that status years prior. She would have become an actual LDS leader if a man, most likely. 😢
THANK YOU for saying that you don't consider Kevin to be blameless. Based on what has been made available to the public, while I don't know whether he could be considered legally to blame, he certainly is guilty of failing to protect his children. Granted from an outsider's perspective it's easy to criticize but I truly believe that no matter how understanding we try to be, he had a duty to step in long before law enforcement got involved.
Kevin was part of my faith crisis. Preaching about 2008 Californing Prop 8 gay marriage law.... in Priesthood meeting!!! I was so cringed out that he was bringing it up in a very inappropriate setting and was enthusiastic about it. That was my last ward.
But apparently Kevin is a friend of Mormon Stories and they're actually sending him well wishes with a promise not to "go after" him. That's reserved for the his co-conspirators.
@@raincadeify well this whole scenario for the last two years, he seems to be more victim than perp. But I don’t think Kevin and Ruby arrived where they were just because of Jodi. They were already on the more extreme orthodox side of believing in the church anyway.
@@honeybearcares They were doing child abuse. I don't think that's the same as Mormon orthodoxy. Did you see the stuff from their channel? That's all pre Jodi, and Kevin participated. They should have had someone to help them but, but they had two adults against them; I don't understand why Kevin's not in jail too.
@@raincadeifyyes I was really thrown by the well wishes. I have great sympathy for John because I know how hard it is with all the connections in our religious communities… but honestly the well wishing comment is an unintended slap in the face to the victims here. KF is not blameless.
@@raincadeify They were connected with Jodi while they had the channel. A lot of Ruby's most controversial statements and actions that got her channel shut down are philosophies she learned from Jodi.
I think Natasha's point about abuse is correct because it teaches kids that their normal biological functions are evil and bad. It is the ultimate form of gaslighting and shaming.
💯
This was so beneficial. I wrote the final paper for my trauma course on Ruby & Jodi.
I’ve experienced a much different version of AA. There are no leaders, it’s on the traditions. What I will say is there’s thousands of mtngs & thus, can vary. Finding ones with ppl your age or that you can relate to & even running the dynamic against the BITE modem could be valuable. I’ve had an amazing experienced, I got 2 w/ ppl mostly 25-40, super open minded & not religious. 💜
Pam Baucher needs to be exposed for her involvement.
💯
BS on fathers not being expected to do more than financially support their children. Kevin absolutely neglected his obligations as a father. Had he even met with them on an occasional basis to maintain a relationship and made sure they were doing OK this would not have happened. He is utterly disturbing in his interviews, inquiring after Ruby's well-being and advocating for her in the total absence of expressing any concern for his poor abused children. He seems to not own his utter neglect and I feel that the kids are not safe in his care if he does not do so. What is to stop him from passively serving them up on a platter to another abuser? This podcast is sickening. The Mormon church was not responsible for the trauma these kids suffered, but their mother and father.
The Mormon church is not responsible but Mormon doctrine, teaching and the manipulation and interpretation of the same is certainly involved.
I think there’s deception in Kevin’s story. During his first police interview, he said he’d never gone to Jodi’s and that Jodi was a good person. He also could have lied about the objects flying around, etc. Jodi is manipulative, a grifter. Her “possession” could have been an act to gain sympathy, attention, money, more clients, etc. And she could have resorted to trickery to cause noises, things flying around, etc. All known poltergeist cases have been debunked at this point. In famous cases, years after events, people confess that they used trickery as children and adults believed them. On the other hand, Jodi could have believed she was possessed and still embellished her story with trickery. If so, how did she miraculously recover? No one tortured the demons out of her like she felt had to be done with the children. This makes me think the whole thing was a ruse.
Demons are real, but they weren't inthose children...they're in Jodi. And Ruby.
Agreed In my opinion Kevin was a victim in a sense, locked out. Locked out. But he tried to convict his own daughter of theft for grabbing items from the family home. This guy also has some horrifying reviews from his students at BYU. Many left his classes because he was so hostile and volatile. But, timeline unknown
Yes! I can never un-see that scene. This man who had voluntarily not seen his children for a year, wanted his eldest daughter arrested. He wasn’t concerned about the children, he was concerned that she had entered the family home and retrieved some things for her siblings and some electronics. Good fathers always demand the police arrest their children before they talk to the children directly, right? (Sarcasm)
he is only victim as a husband. as a father, I don't think he cared
@@gacktist00Agreed.
Fwiw, when he was my professor for a class in 2020, I thought he was one of the best in the department (this is a really low bar, professors choose that job in order to do research, the couple classes they teach are generally a required nuisance, rather than a passion). Kevin was one of the few who seemed to put real effort in his classes and cared about interactions with students.
That totally could have changed as his life became more unhinged the next couple years, but he seemed too timid to really flip out at students (think your stereotypical nerdy engineer personality). I'd believe homophobic or other abrasive comments were possible given how conservative the school is though. I'd also believe the ratemyprofessor reviews were heavily manipulated by people who heard about the UA-cam channel, not from students.
Tough to know.
@@alextemus I don't think his female students had that same experience. Jordan and McKay went through the reviews and only read the old ones from long before the arrests.
This story blew our minds! Can you imagine if little Russell, the HERO, hadn’t escaped?
Unfortunately religious fanatics are becoming more and more extreme in their crazy behaviors and there is so much suffering that could’ve been avoided!
Thank you to MS for bringing all this to light!
He saved the children. Thank God the neighbor, man was home and stepped up and made awareness to the authorities.
Those children would be dead if he hadn't escaped and gone for help.
I have never been a Mormon. I saw John Dehlin on Cults to Consciousness. I only came to Mormon Stories because of my experience with Latter Day Saints Missionaries. I am really glad that I subscribed and watch Mormon Stories frequently. You have given me the vocabulary to understand what I am going through. I am going through a faith transition. I like the long detailed interviews because I have learned so much....not so much about Mormonism but how damaging being part of a patriarchal religious sect has been to me. Natasha Helfer's sexual health information has really been eye opening. I would not have defined myself as a victim of the purity culture because I never experienced the weird purity culture rituals that exist today. She enlightened me by making me aware that I was deeply ashamed of normative sexual behavior. I thought I was righteously ashamed of my "sinful' sexual behavior. I thought feeling lust was shameful. My Christian sect just like the later day saints believed that to just think a "sinful" thought was to do the actual act. My mind is changing. I appreciate Mormon Stories. I appreciate your long form.
This therapist is very good! I really appreciate her comments.
Joseph smith the leader of his church spoke to not do things but he was doing them himself. Same as Jody H. Giving treatment to people that she was doing sinister things.
Natasha’s insight is so valuable. As clinicians we are trained to try to explore and understand why people engage in harmful/destructive behavior-whether or not such behaviors are directed at others or toward themselves. Circumstances, beliefs, etc. do not justify harmful behavior. But we can hold space for two (or more) conflicting truths at once. Kevin is a victim and also contributed to abuse/harm of his kids. I understand the outrage and anger, I feel it too. I also have empathy for Kevin. Growing up in a high control religion perpetuates abuse in all forms. I hope the Franke family finds healing one day.
I’ll absolutely be checking out CEs with Natasha. My counseling brain was fangirling over her clinical knowledge and expertise throughout this entire episode!
Thank you for calling out AA methods. I was deeply hurt, shamed and abandoned after months of being practically love bombed by the “caring community”. Only caring and inclusive when I was a good girl towing the party line. For me, it was a high demand group and I was excommunicated because I questioned some of their approach and beliefs. My “sponsor” was a controlling and unstable person, but I was told she had to have full access to all of my deepest darkest secrets, so her rejection of me after I chose to trust her without her having earned any of that trust… it hurt. It behaves exactly like a cult. Some good results yes but at what personal cost
Right there with you.
@@stevedorecharley2849 I suspect I’m not alone
I thought to try AA, not because I couldn't not drink, but because I used it as an avoidance tactic. I did not experience love bombing. I was met very coolly and not really welcomed, so I didn't go back. I handled it without them.
@@annamineer2521 from my experience, the “in crowd” in meetings don’t like when someone doesn’t claim absolute powerlessness over alcohol and it’s a non negotiable that you choose to believe you have a terminal disease of alcoholism. It encourages and breeds dependency on the program for life. If you don’t agree and claim you know yourself what the flaws in your drinking are, you will be labelled as in denial. It’s agree totally to belong, or don’t belong at all. I don’t believe I am an alcoholic, but I have like you used it to escape my cptsd.
I am sorry that was your experience. How damaging it must be to trust and then be rejected like that. I try to remember that they are JUST people in recovery themselves.
Take what's good and leave the rest of the mumbo-jumbo. I hope you are well and living your best life.
For years my husband and his brothers hated their mother and blamed her for the abuse.
But the more i listened and paid attention to what had happened it was the stepfather that was behind the abuse. And in the end he was the one that caused the finally beating that the kids were taken away... but yet they still blamed the mother and praised the father as the hero.
What father eats steak and has their kids go hungry in front of them....the abuser thats who. Who neglects his wife when she is in need but an abuser....
To look from a different lens the truth will come to light.
Stop giving Kevin a pass...
Maybe Kevin saw the flying plates with his "SPIRITUAL EYES" 😆😅😄
Omg this is funny🤣🤣🤣
Leaving the church cured my OCD, and the hate I had for myself, because I was never perfect enough.
Note about wilderness camps: yes there are predators, but there are also a lot of people who take kids out in harsh conditions where several kids have died from exposure to extreme heat or cold, lack of hydration, and other things the workers weren’t equipped to handle.
This session is far better than the title suggests. Every Mormon should listen to this Mormon Story.
Love watching your show. Thank you for no Ads!! ❤
The children were put through the no win situation of pleasing Jodi and Ruby that Kevin describes. This is truly a vicious cycle. These women should stay incarcerated for the maximum number of years.
John Dehlin. You are bad! Im bcoming ADDICTED to your video programs. I cant functiin withou 3 or 4 videos a day & its getting worse Dr John. I need your help. Do you have any suggestions? I even take my phone to bed. What is your diagnosis? Help
I just saw 4 hrs, yeah, but I might have to save this for tomorrow.
Right??
I am also addicted to these videos, and there is also Cult to Continuous. I take it to bed, kitchen and.....the bathroom. I don't think there is a cure for me!
Keep up the good work ❤️
Thank you, I am not the only one 😂😂😂. I am not a Mormon, never was, but addicted to this channel. I am learning so much. I guess my evangelical background explains my fascination for the topic.
I did a phone abstinence for 24 hours about a month ago. It really worked well for me. I may have to do it again.
Thank you so much for those. All 3 of you had super valuable insights on this layered topic. John, I saw Book of Mormon last Friday & afterwards I was explaining some of the background to it based on all my time learning on this channel. Couldn’t help but wonder what the church did when they learned of & watched that musical take off. I tried to find an episode about it but didn’t.
That was the height of their 'I'm a Mormon' campaign (when saying Mormon wasn't a victory for Satan). They actually leaned into the musical taking ads out in the playbills saying something like 'Now that you're seen the musical, experience the real thing.'
@@acatnamedm4529 yeah in London I remember seeing signs of “you’ve seen the musical, now read the Book of Mormon… the book is better!”
Episodes 518-519 with Clark Johnsen. He was an original BOM Musical cast member.
@@kjens8617 His episodes were great
Thank you for interrupting and calling out what is obvious to most of us, such as a ‘therapist’ kicking you out of your own home, not to mention the financial repercussions of that, these ‘leaders’ backing up Jodi and her therapies, so gross all of it. And Kevin does not get a pass, he’s so checked out on so many levels. But he is not without fault, he stood by and watched what was happening and never said no.
My ex-husband was employed by LDS Social Services as a marriage and family therapist and serving in our ward Bishopric.
Every Bishop in the stake and the Stake President was referring all the ward members to him for therapy during that time, for marriage conflict, depression, anxiety, etc.
Imagine how betrayed those members felt when they found out the therapist they were going to for guidance and support was a fraud.
He was having an affair with his therapy client and also hiring sex workers and having one night stands with random women he met in bars.
Isn't Pam also the one that Ruby profusely apologized to during her statement to the court? Something like not wanting her to look bad or be associated to the CA in any way.
I am torn on my opinions of Kevin. I see him as a victim in a lot of ways. As a man in the church, when you are told that you are basically weak, pathetic, incapable, and simply a bad husband and father for having completely normal sexual desires, it can take a huge beating on your confidence, self-worth, and critical reasoning skills! I feel that between the church and Jodi, he was made to feel undeserving as a father, which is probably why he kept the distance that he did. However, there definitely should’ve been more interaction and introspection, more connection with the kids to see how they were doing, etc.
Well said
He was a well-respected professor who put a lot of effort in his classes and travelled constantly for geotechnical engineering projects and research (earth foundations for buildings, mines, earthquakes, etc.).
I only say that to add that I think he chose to be away a lot and ignore problems at home too - both connection and worthiness issues in the eyes of Ruby and himself, and parenting issues.
John has the best, most soothing podcast voice. I am interested in the topics but sometimes I put on his podcast to get soothed to sleep. Then I have to listen again during the day. Best voice
Chewing ice is a common sign of anemia. That “addiction “ could possibly be resolved with bloodwork and iron supplements.
Yes! Ravenously craving ice and tomatoes is a common sign of anaemia. And anaemia is very common in people with a menstrual cycle! In some families it's even genetic to a degree.
Would Google that again
@@merrydaye4763 per the Mayo Clinic “Craving and chewing ice, known as pagophagia, is often associated with iron deficiency, with or without anemia, although the reason is unclear.”
Son was not found. He escaped 😢
Jodi didn't want to fix people. She wanted their money.
She is a predator in every way. Her demon dreams ate maybe her conscience for doing such horrible things to the whole families.
My mom went to a "pray the depression away" christian "therapist" (he was unlicensed); and when I went to my relatively large church for a sexual/domestic violence survivor support group, they directed me to AA (I was stone cold sober when the assault happened). Organized religious groups need to stop pretending they are equipped to help in these arenas. Stick to being supportive by creating community.
They have been sentenced, but Utah has different sentencing guidelines than most states. They are sentenced to 4-30 years and the Parole Board will determine when they are released. The files were released after their 30 day window of appeal had closed.
I can attest to the deluded mormon obsession with purity. I was born and raised mormon, and when I was in 5th grade, I got childhood cancer. I did come close to dying, but I beat it, and I'm in my 40s now. My parents found out when I was a teen that my boyfriend and I were having sex. (like teens do) My dad, in the midst of an argument about my virginity, told me he wished I would have died when I had cancer because then I would have gone straight to heaven. Now, there's no hope for me, and my only place after death is hell. That was one of the most hurtful things I have ever been told. My parents wished I would have died. Now they wonder why I don't speak to them or go to church.
Kevin Franke needs to be in prison as well. He threw his kids to the wolves. He is a weak man.
Yes, he is. He didn't even ask about the conditions of his children at all, only Ruby.
I have followed Dr. David Ley and Nicole Prouse for several years. I appreciate their evidence based critiques on sex addictions.
Every once in a while David shares questions from sex addiction inventories.
Things like (the gist) - have you ever had sex to release stress or tension?
Science tells us that sex and masturbation help release stress and tension.
Who hasn’t done this?
How is this question used to measure “addiction”?
Well, there are only a couple ways it makes sense.
The belief that sex is only partaken in for procreation is one.
Fascinating Polly
How can a witch like that mistreat so many children for so long without the husband being any wiser? It is hard to believe he did not have any knowledge of what was going on.
Because he was more concerned with people thinking he was a sex addict.
He absolutely didn't care. When the police brought him in, he didn't even inquire about the condition of his children. He only cared about Ruby.
For a period of time he was completely cut off from the children, so I believe he didn't know the worst of it but it was absolutely his responsibility to have been attempting to contact them, checking in with family etc and he did nothing as far as we know. I think he valued his marriage more than his children.
@@Teajay21 He knew enough to know that his children experienced something bad and needed his love and support. Any decent parent would be asking repeatedly about the welfare of the children.
the way Kevin talks about the UA-cam cancelling is really disturbing he speaks like there was no justification for it. People were rightly concerned about their children and for their basic welfare ie access to food and healthcare even under those circumstances those worries were legitimate and justified and all he can talk about is the effect it had on ruby
I love these episodes with Natasha and others discussing about this case!! Always listening till the end 🩷
All this time, I thought Alma was a woman (it is a woman’s name in Spanish), and now I learn it’s a man! So much for crediting Mormonism with some trace of feminism!
Lori Vallow and Ruby Franke were so controlling. These woman were so abusive to their husbands and children..
Thank you for saying that no one has the right to tell you to leave your home. My son and his wife were not getting along. My son had a brain tumor that had resurfaced after an operation...He also had another brain injury. He was going down fast. He'd just had an operation on his back and was always in pain it seemed to me. He and his wife came to my apartment and my son's head was blown up almost twice it's size...My son did not know how he got that except to say he thinks he fell out of bed, or a seizure. He was like a wound sheep. When he was strong and working, bringing home the money his wife was so fine with him having a beer but now he could not do anything right. She wanted him out and a divorce. He was heart broken....There was so many symptoms to his wounds...He took his life insurance and put it out so she could see it and shot himself in the head and died. My heart will always be broken...He was not perfect...But She wanted him out when he should have been on palliative care...I believe. After he died she couldn't say enough good things about him.
Kevin, if you're reading this, it's not my place or other watchers to go after you for abusing your children, even when you were doing it as much as Ruby when you had your UA-cam channel, before Jodi, but I wish the law chases you instead, because it is the law's place and they should been doing it after your part in hurting your children...have a nice day :)
Yay glad to check in with ypu guys again. Been watching the Daybell Trial..yikes..
I listened live last night, but have to listen again because there was so much covered. I laughed out loud at the point you talked about Jodi adapting the AA model but adding a 13th step. In AA there is already an unofficial 13th step which is sleeping with someone in the group. 😂😂😂
😂😂😂
Another fabulous episode! Thanks John & Mormon Stories!
In what way is Kevin any different than any other parent who passively allows or ignores when the other parent abuses their children? Most cases of abuse feature this dynamic. Are you all saying that modern mainstream Mormonism teaches that the father has no obligation to his kids beyond financial support? This man knew of the craziness brewing and had not right NOT to keep regular contact with his kids regardless of what Ruby wanted. And to "go easy" on someone in this situation due to relationship is precisely what perpetuates abuse and neglect. Almost always people beyond the actual abuser knows or suspects, people care more about the adults than the helpless children. Shameful to have this attitude.
Dr. Dehlin, I know you know this, but regarding self-$arm, one of the main reason people report doing it is because the physical pain dulls the emotional pain.
As a member of a 12 step program for more than 16 years, it drives me insane that Jodi and others like her compare their cons to AA. 12 step programs are free and have no leaders. They aren’t perfect, but they save lives.
Agreed.
They save some lives and harm others. That’s my experience.
Wonderful, amazing interview! I love this show, John!
I'm still disturbed knowing Ruby may only serve 4yrs. Kevin being in a grey area has alot to overcome. Everything about this has been shocking. Don't see anything changing.
Excellent content and evaluation! Such important work you are doing.
Thank you so much 🙂
Love this discussion sooo much! Thank you. Also thank you John for defending AA there a little bit.. I don’t think anyone can understand how much it helps people unless you are an actual self admitted alcoholic/addict. I wouldn’t compare it to Jodie’s classes in anyway.
Another great show with great guests. I appreciate the explanation of the layers to be found under the surface of abuse by people like Jody, Ruby, the Daybells, etc. I try to always mention the podcast in comment sections of other creators covering these cases because it brings so much deeper understanding.
Kevin is at fault as well! His behavior should be questioned. He allowed terrible things to happen to his own kids long before jodi came along. He was there supporting the abuse while they had their YT channel. He allowed and participated in the abuse. He is not innocent! Kevin proved he would not protect himself nor protect his kids then plays victim. I’m so tired of these men of the church getting let off the hook. He has a lot of blame in this. He was hurting those kids before they met Jodi. This episode irritated me to no end. Luckily the therapist had some sense.
Jodi’s entire M.O. was projecting her own shames and insecurities and things she hated about herself and her life onto other people.
I don’t know how you can excuse Kevin Frank’s. He is just as responsible as anybody else if not more, the fact that they exploited their children makes him the responsible party. He put them out on the Internet and he sat back and watch the whole thing go down, so to excuse him is unacceptable and pretty surprising!
I don't agree with everything the panelists say, but agreeing to disagree is how I learn and understanding through someone else's eyes...❤
What do you disagree with?
I’m curious how Jodi earned her Masters in Educational Psychology and became the go to person about sex addiction? She didn’t have her PhD. Wouldn’t her clinical education be in the Education system, doing assessments and learning how to help in an Education setting. How did she qualify for her Board. Since she didn’t have a PhD, she wasn’t a Psychologist, but a Psychotherapist. (I’m from another country and only University Profs, PhD and PsyD are Psychologists)How did she get out of her wheelhouse?
I think bc she lost her therapists license, she realized she could be a life coach, or "mental fitness trainer," and just make up stuff that she couldn't get in trouble for since she was no longer a therapist under the supervision of licensing.
Just a thought: how did George Santos become a US representative with all the lies and fraud he's done along the way? Sometimes people are just good at lying and sometimes start to even believe they're own lies.
The stuff about accountability buddies is taken from the sponsorship concept in 12 Step programs. Calling another addict/alcoholic when in distress or when tempted to relapse is also common advice in the 12 Step world.
New diagnostic term: Total Goober! Good one Doc hahaha!
He made a good point, though! ! I’ve noticed the same thing about cult leaders. They’re either total goobers, creepy or even downright repulsive. Why do people fall for their schtick?
Chad got kicked out of his room for playing a prank on his brother. That his own mother kicks hogties starves with glee. When Jodi is not even there according to her diary.
Thank you for always explaining every side. I hope the kids find peace and healing after being exposed to these things.
Thanks for all your work!
John you are so deferential to random chat people who seem to me to just deliberately misunderstand you. It’s very impressive really
An LDS 12 step program done in this context is really off center. Alcoholics Anonymous is not therapy, as a matter of fact, one of the premises of the group is that we are not there to fix each other. There is no cross talk allowed. We gather to share our individual experiences as a way to show people who are in the thick of it that they can recover. The Steps are personal. They are done by yourself and people are encouraged to share either with a counselor or clergy or a sponsor from within the group. The sponsor is not supposed to be a therapist. But a sounding board. There is a wonderful community to be found there.
Love this.
Here to respectfully comment that while 12 step programs CAN be as good as you describe, they are often not that at all. I had multiple experiences of shaming and coercion. It was very bad for me.
@@stevedorecharley2849 Absolutely, this does happen sometimes, each group tends to have its own "flavor". I stopped going to one particular group because of that. They can also be gossipy. Having said that, if they are truly practicing the 12 traditions (as a healthy group should) they are less likely to be judgmental. Remember, AA is certainly about the 12;steps, but there are the 12; traditions, and 12 concepts. Steps are for the individual, traditions are for the group, and concepts are for AA as a whole. If those things are out of sync, then the group suffers. When the founders of AA began to meet, there were a number of different iterations, but over time with sobriety and the wisdom that comes with it Bill Wilson and Bob Smith were able to really hone in to the precepts that have led millions to sobriety. Myself being one of them. AA doesn't cost a thing, there is no pressure to put money in the basket, there is no one person in charge.
I was in a weight based program in the past, and to be a full part of the group, I had to have a sponsor. I chose a woman who was a speaker at a district meeting, but lived in another city. I was calling her at 6 am daily to check in. On day 4 she told me that at one point we wod be talking about my sexual fantasies. I was shocked and never called her again. I was in the group with her sister who was really rude and judgmental after this. I quit the group after a few weeks as it was NOT being run well and was full of people with personality issues.
What a fantastic and riveting episode! Great job to all.
It’s hard to understand how Kevin could fall prey to Jodi’s tactics UNLESS you have an intimate & personal understanding of LDS culture & theology. Every single dyed-in-the-wool devout Mormon is a potential victim to cults, because they are IN a cult already themselves, oftentimes ignorantly. If you grow up LDS you have no idea how controlled you are until you’re out. Kevin is going to need some intense detox therapy not only from what Jodi and Ruby did to him, but from the Mormon church in general.