I also believe that Euro game is not just a mechanic. I need good theme to involve me deeply into the game and theme must be logic and that is why I expect euros (and any other games too) to have great art. Good Euro cannot be just a chess game or solitaire.
I think the question about money being spent for things that already happens - you could think that you are not paying to DO those things but as a cost to discover/research what happened (ex. traveling to places, hiring etc)
Thematic expansion for money earned in present and spent in past: borrow the "loan stuff to your past self" mechanic from Anachrony. Call it "Lacrimosa 2: Dies Irae".
I really enjoyed this game. I do agree that the theme is a little pasted, it's hard to "stretch" or justify the use of money for different actions (such as those from previous travels). My biggest complaint was more with the rulebook. I did not enjoy the structure used for it and it was harder to process , especially for the weight of the game. It took me a couple reads to figure it out.
that's a very good point and tbh i should probably have mentioned it in the final thought. PLEASE publishers, stop doing this 'front loading' thing that just makes it hard to learn, and harder to look up stuff you don't remember!!!
Yeah, the rulebook structure was a big problem I had with Dune: War for Arrakis as well. It did this whole "drilling down" thing where it was several pages of general concepts, then several pages of general turn structure, then several more pages of going in-depth with the different actions and concepts, and there was important information unique to each of those sections. Ended up stopping the play after the first round because it was too hard to teach and too frustrating to try to find answers thanks to the way the rulebook was written. :(
it's maddening to me that publisher more and more are leaning into this "front load information" thing. i complain about it in my podcast a lot, and i should be calling them out for it in final thoughts videos as well, but by the time i'm filming the final thoughts, i've forgotten how much i struggled with dumb rules structuring.
Spanish Games are getting better and better: Lacrimosa, Red Cathedral, Sabika, Bitoku, Kingdom Defendes, Awkward Guests, 1998 ISS, 1920 Wall Street (and XXXX series), Luna Capital...woo
The gameplay is excellent. 👍 I also enjoy the themeing and didn't have the issues you mention. Regarding time: only the Requiem completion is in the 'present' of the time of the game. Everything else is in the past (recounting memories). Regarding money: You earned the money in the past and so were wealthy enough (or not) to afford the journeys, or commissioning of compositions (at that time). You also retained your wealth and so can afford (or not) to pay for commissions of the Requiem in the 'now' of the game. I do understand how that may seem convoluted when new to the game, but I think it hangs together.
yeah, re: money the problem to me is that i can earn it _in the present_ and then spend it _in the past_ which is fine... one can just let stuff like that go because i agree that the gameplay is excellent. but i have a hard time letting it go :)
The compositions are not from the past, they are in the present on manuscript paper. Mozart had written it down in the past and there is only the single copy. You are buying the manuscript which you can then either sell on for profit, or you have the exclusive rights to put on performances of it. This was common at the time. Maybe, the rulebook doesnt explain this properly. Im familiar with 18th century practices in the music industry so maybe the theme makes more sense to me. However I havent played the game, just responding to what I can see in the game's presentation.
the rulebook implies that everything happening in the game (including buying & performing works) happen in the past except for the current act of finishing the lacrimosa. but if you're right and the performances and the buying/selling is happening after mozarts death, it makes things even more odd, because you're making money in the present that you then spend in the past for traveling.
I. Love. This game. I've only played it once but wow was it good. Every turn I wanted every action! But I also wanted every income! Hard choices had to be made. Do you take the yin or the yang. I didn't give a rip about the theme going into it, and didn't give it a second thought during game play. If it helps you wrap your head around it, consider everything that happens in the game as having happened in the past, except the area control portion of hiring composers. If you consider that earning money from compositions happened in the past, why wouldn't you spend some of that money in the future to hire composers? I've been saving money for the last 20 years that won't be spent for another 30 - last I checked, banks existed during Mozart's time!
Would it reconcile the theme if you think the game takes place _after_ the Requiem Mass has been completed? That way _everything_ is in the past and so the income and money exchanges all happened in the past as well. There is still a disconnect in terms of using money to pay for the composers, etc but it might help a little bit maybe?
yup, that could reconcile things... that everything happens in the past. but i think that makes the story a bit less engaging. the mix of "doing a thing *now* while talking about a thing i did in the past" is a bit more evocative (you often see it used as a story structure in traditional storytelling, for instance), and it's something that's very unique in the boardgame industry. so i'd hate to lose that....
well i assume you like coimbra for the gameplay design, not because you have a deep love of monasteries,. so i can imagine you similarly liking this without the deep love of classical music :)
Hey Rhado Great job on this playthrough and final thoughts series for Lacrimosa!! We had the exact same reaction, we love the game mechanics and theme but how exactly am I earning money in the present to then spend it in the past?! There may be a very simple fix. Just as the story tokens have a tracker as well as actual physical tokens, do the same with the money. Create money trackers where each player starts with 20 gold, let's say, and you just subtract from that as you travel. Whatever you don't spend you get in points in the end. What say ye?🤔
I just played this last night for the first time. I loved the experience I and I see this staying in my collection for a while. I felt the theme was present, but wasn't in the way of the mechanics. It was there if I wanted to stop and think about it, but it didn't hinder me from actually playing the game and doing a whole bunch of fun euro-y stuff. My only real complaint has to do with the cards. I wish the graphic design of the memory cards and opus cards was more different. Why did they both have to be beige?? It was a real struggle the whole game to readily tell the two apart. Curious if you had the same issue.
i didn't have too much trouble with the cards because of the way they're placed on the board, slotted "up" or "down" based on the type. but i agree that there's no reason for them not to have had a different base color (and that color could have been on the board "slots" as well) to make things clearer :)
Not only I’m not much into middle/heavy euros, I’m a musician as well. I was looking so much forward to this game, hoping it would be the music-themed game of my dreams, but once I saw those out of place clefs on the score section of the board I lost interest. Yes, I know I’m being nitpicky, but for me that’s the equivalent of using a stethoscope to cure a broken leg in a hospital-themed game, or canons in a pharaoh-themed war game. I’m sure many people will enjoy it, but that’s really a bummer for me.
Im a musician as well and Im not sure I totally agree. The only clef that could be interpreted as out of place is the C clef used for the Choir icons. But, in the 18th century the use of that clef was the normal clef for choral parts. If you look at 18th century manuscripts (not modern editions) the C clef is used for soprano, alto and tenor choir lines. Only the bass clef is used for the bass choral part. In modern editions the C clef is changed to the treble (G clef) as we are used to that today. Also, timpani were always written with the brass above the strings and vocal lines, and the organ was always at the bottom as a single bass clef line (the organist improvising the right hand part). So, in my view the designers have correctly used the clefs in the convention of the period.
@@richardausten4594 Hi, I'm one of the designers of the game, happy to read this discussion. During the design of the game we work on having consistency with cleffs, having several musician reviews, your analysis is totally right.
@@FerranRenalias hi thanks for letting us know about this. Yes, it was very clear to me that the visual design was a result of research. Unfortunately, most musicians don't know this stuff. Why would they, its very specialist (and historical) so not something they need to know. So you might encounter a few musicians who think its incorrect. Anyway, great job on the game i will be comissioning myself a copy!
i'd probably but it around 8.4ish i think. the rating isn't there because i'm going to be sending it on to the dice tower west convention library and i only rate games that i keep. you can see everything that goes at gone.rahdo.com with reasons why :)
yup they both do cool takes on the "play a card high or low". from a gameplay perspective i'd rank them almost equally good. thematically i found revivie worked better for me (though i wanted to like the lacromosa setting more)
I thought thematically we are sharing memories of Mozart and reminiscing with the composers to persuade them to contribute to the completion of the work for free because they want to have their name against this famous work for posperity, occasionally some coins are required.
you can actually make money in the present through the act of continuing mozarts work that you can then subsequently spend in the past to sponsor mozart's travels.
@@rahdo But you don't spend coins to travel in the past with Mozart, just spending coins to remember them? It's just memories. Or you could just treat it like everything happens in the present. You travel around Europe to remember/find inspiration and at the same time performing/selling his works and hiring musiscians to complete the requiem.
I also believe that Euro game is not just a mechanic. I need good theme to involve me deeply into the game and theme must be logic and that is why I expect euros (and any other games too) to have great art. Good Euro cannot be just a chess game or solitaire.
Great review great playthru!! I ve got the game in my hands and I'm looking forward to playing it as soon as possible.
I think the question about money being spent for things that already happens - you could think that you are not paying to DO those things but as a cost to discover/research what happened (ex. traveling to places, hiring etc)
Thematic expansion for money earned in present and spent in past: borrow the "loan stuff to your past self" mechanic from Anachrony. Call it "Lacrimosa 2: Dies Irae".
SOLVED! i had no idea lacrimosa was a scifi game :)
I really enjoyed this game. I do agree that the theme is a little pasted, it's hard to "stretch" or justify the use of money for different actions (such as those from previous travels). My biggest complaint was more with the rulebook. I did not enjoy the structure used for it and it was harder to process , especially for the weight of the game. It took me a couple reads to figure it out.
that's a very good point and tbh i should probably have mentioned it in the final thought. PLEASE publishers, stop doing this 'front loading' thing that just makes it hard to learn, and harder to look up stuff you don't remember!!!
Yeah, the rulebook structure was a big problem I had with Dune: War for Arrakis as well. It did this whole "drilling down" thing where it was several pages of general concepts, then several pages of general turn structure, then several more pages of going in-depth with the different actions and concepts, and there was important information unique to each of those sections. Ended up stopping the play after the first round because it was too hard to teach and too frustrating to try to find answers thanks to the way the rulebook was written. :(
it's maddening to me that publisher more and more are leaning into this "front load information" thing. i complain about it in my podcast a lot, and i should be calling them out for it in final thoughts videos as well, but by the time i'm filming the final thoughts, i've forgotten how much i struggled with dumb rules structuring.
@@rahdo Totally fair! You put a lot of work into your content, so it makes sense that things get missed occasionally. Love what you do regardless! 😊
Spanish Games are getting better and better: Lacrimosa, Red Cathedral, Sabika, Bitoku, Kingdom Defendes, Awkward Guests, 1998 ISS, 1920 Wall Street (and XXXX series), Luna Capital...woo
yeah, i really want to try more XXXX games... they all seem fantástico!
@@rahdo I recomend 1998 ISS
i do love the ISS. i'm also keen on the chunnel one!
The gameplay is excellent. 👍
I also enjoy the themeing and didn't have the issues you mention.
Regarding time: only the Requiem completion is in the 'present' of the time of the game. Everything else is in the past (recounting memories).
Regarding money: You earned the money in the past and so were wealthy enough (or not) to afford the journeys, or commissioning of compositions (at that time). You also retained your wealth and so can afford (or not) to pay for commissions of the Requiem in the 'now' of the game.
I do understand how that may seem convoluted when new to the game, but I think it hangs together.
yeah, re: money the problem to me is that i can earn it _in the present_ and then spend it _in the past_
which is fine... one can just let stuff like that go because i agree that the gameplay is excellent. but i have a hard time letting it go :)
The compositions are not from the past, they are in the present on manuscript paper. Mozart had written it down in the past and there is only the single copy. You are buying the manuscript which you can then either sell on for profit, or you have the exclusive rights to put on performances of it. This was common at the time. Maybe, the rulebook doesnt explain this properly. Im familiar with 18th century practices in the music industry so maybe the theme makes more sense to me. However I havent played the game, just responding to what I can see in the game's presentation.
the rulebook implies that everything happening in the game (including buying & performing works) happen in the past except for the current act of finishing the lacrimosa. but if you're right and the performances and the buying/selling is happening after mozarts death, it makes things even more odd, because you're making money in the present that you then spend in the past for traveling.
@@rahdo you're right, it doesn't make sense. Thanks!
I. Love. This game. I've only played it once but wow was it good. Every turn I wanted every action! But I also wanted every income! Hard choices had to be made. Do you take the yin or the yang. I didn't give a rip about the theme going into it, and didn't give it a second thought during game play.
If it helps you wrap your head around it, consider everything that happens in the game as having happened in the past, except the area control portion of hiring composers. If you consider that earning money from compositions happened in the past, why wouldn't you spend some of that money in the future to hire composers? I've been saving money for the last 20 years that won't be spent for another 30 - last I checked, banks existed during Mozart's time!
Would it reconcile the theme if you think the game takes place _after_ the Requiem Mass has been completed? That way _everything_ is in the past and so the income and money exchanges all happened in the past as well. There is still a disconnect in terms of using money to pay for the composers, etc but it might help a little bit maybe?
yup, that could reconcile things... that everything happens in the past. but i think that makes the story a bit less engaging. the mix of "doing a thing *now* while talking about a thing i did in the past" is a bit more evocative (you often see it used as a story structure in traditional storytelling, for instance), and it's something that's very unique in the boardgame industry. so i'd hate to lose that....
Hi Richard, question. If I am not into music as a theme of the game but I like Coimbra or Lorenzo. Am I gonna enjoy this game? Thank you.
well i assume you like coimbra for the gameplay design, not because you have a deep love of monasteries,. so i can imagine you similarly liking this without the deep love of classical music :)
Hey Rhado Great job on this playthrough and final thoughts series for Lacrimosa!! We had the exact same reaction, we love the game mechanics and theme but how exactly am I earning money in the present to then spend it in the past?! There may be a very simple fix. Just as the story tokens have a tracker as well as actual physical tokens, do the same with the money. Create money trackers where each player starts with 20 gold, let's say, and you just subtract from that as you travel. Whatever you don't spend you get in points in the end. What say ye?🤔
i love it!
I just played this last night for the first time. I loved the experience I and I see this staying in my collection for a while. I felt the theme was present, but wasn't in the way of the mechanics. It was there if I wanted to stop and think about it, but it didn't hinder me from actually playing the game and doing a whole bunch of fun euro-y stuff. My only real complaint has to do with the cards. I wish the graphic design of the memory cards and opus cards was more different. Why did they both have to be beige?? It was a real struggle the whole game to readily tell the two apart. Curious if you had the same issue.
i didn't have too much trouble with the cards because of the way they're placed on the board, slotted "up" or "down" based on the type. but i agree that there's no reason for them not to have had a different base color (and that color could have been on the board "slots" as well) to make things clearer :)
Not only I’m not much into middle/heavy euros, I’m a musician as well. I was looking so much forward to this game, hoping it would be the music-themed game of my dreams, but once I saw those out of place clefs on the score section of the board I lost interest. Yes, I know I’m being nitpicky, but for me that’s the equivalent of using a stethoscope to cure a broken leg in a hospital-themed game, or canons in a pharaoh-themed war game. I’m sure many people will enjoy it, but that’s really a bummer for me.
Im a musician as well and Im not sure I totally agree. The only clef that could be interpreted as out of place is the C clef used for the Choir icons. But, in the 18th century the use of that clef was the normal clef for choral parts. If you look at 18th century manuscripts (not modern editions) the C clef is used for soprano, alto and tenor choir lines. Only the bass clef is used for the bass choral part. In modern editions the C clef is changed to the treble (G clef) as we are used to that today. Also, timpani were always written with the brass above the strings and vocal lines, and the organ was always at the bottom as a single bass clef line (the organist improvising the right hand part). So, in my view the designers have correctly used the clefs in the convention of the period.
@@richardausten4594 Hi, I'm one of the designers of the game, happy to read this discussion. During the design of the game we work on having consistency with cleffs, having several musician reviews, your analysis is totally right.
@@FerranRenalias hi thanks for letting us know about this. Yes, it was very clear to me that the visual design was a result of research. Unfortunately, most musicians don't know this stuff. Why would they, its very specialist (and historical) so not something they need to know. So you might encounter a few musicians who think its incorrect. Anyway, great job on the game i will be comissioning myself a copy!
Did you try it solo? Pretty great. Simple and smooth. Top shelf game👍
i took a look and it seemed smartly designed, but i was surprised they took out the 2nd hirable composer!
Soooo, what’s you’re rating?! I don’t see a score on bgg.
i'd probably but it around 8.4ish i think. the rating isn't there because i'm going to be sending it on to the dice tower west convention library and i only rate games that i keep. you can see everything that goes at gone.rahdo.com with reasons why :)
@@rahdo ohh I see. It seems similar to Revive which you rate higher. Thanks Rahdo!
yup they both do cool takes on the "play a card high or low". from a gameplay perspective i'd rank them almost equally good. thematically i found revivie worked better for me (though i wanted to like the lacromosa setting more)
I thought thematically we are sharing memories of Mozart and reminiscing with the composers to persuade them to contribute to the completion of the work for free because they want to have their name against this famous work for posperity, occasionally some coins are required.
you can actually make money in the present through the act of continuing mozarts work that you can then subsequently spend in the past to sponsor mozart's travels.
@@rahdo ah ok, yeah it is a bit muddled
@@rahdo But you don't spend coins to travel in the past with Mozart, just spending coins to remember them? It's just memories.
Or you could just treat it like everything happens in the present. You travel around Europe to remember/find inspiration and at the same time performing/selling his works and hiring musiscians to complete the requiem.
Did you mean to say Luna Capital instead of Luna Architect? ;-)
D'oh! yes, yes i did! :)
timestamp please
Minor complaint? You made a mountain out of a mole hill.
different people care about different things
I had no problem seeing theme in all the actions. Rhado lacks criativity
we'll have to agree to disagree