43:53 "Clefable just does random stuff." I love that! Thank you for such a thorough exploration of this topic. Though I can't become a member at this time, I SO appreciate content like this. 😄
Yes you can, but what about speed? If you have BFS + speed, that Dragonite farms even more berry during sneaky snacking, and speed does not harm ingredients output during non-sneaky snacking. for BFS+IFM, the ingredient finding harms berry output until sneaky snacking. During sneaky snacking it's only BFS without speed. Of course, we could argue BFS+HSM+IFM would work even better. But that increases the difficulty of finding a good Dratini much more as you're now getting closer to looking for perfection. In which case, then perhaps we should just stick to Altaria with BFS+HSM, and let Dragonite just do IFM+HSM.
I mentioned this in another comment but you really should be looking at berry mons with sneaky snacking enabled, since that’s generally the best way to use favored berry mons unless their ings happen to line up with a meta dish
Yes that's another situation to look at, would be 100 minutes video if I have to compare sneaky situation too. The reason I didn't is that "dual specialist" that uses BFS is already niche. Ingredient specialists still, by and large, need to do ingredients. The prerequisite utilizing any dual specialty like I said is that you already have ingredients covered. Sneaky Snacking situation basically ignores ingredient rate and solely looks at speed. Unfortunately though that means if some players decided to invest their main skill levels, skills become wasted during sneaky snacking. I tried to compare the situations where players are allowed to still enjoy using their main skills (i.e. no sneaky snacking).
Can you make a video on to much ingredients and rotation to keep the energy up. Overall I find that my berry specialist give me to much ingredients. Should I be sneaky snacking more?
The obvious choice would be to find a berry specialist that also matches correct ingredients, but that's generally hard to do which is why I usually recommend building mono ingredients so they stay on the team as short a time as possible and then just using berry specialists the rest of the time. A full pokebox and team analysis is needed for each account specifically which option would be best.
oh yeah. Then, I am confused. I have a Gastly with ingredients (Fiery herb, Mushroom, oils) at level 13 with Berry Finding S at level 10, Skill Level up m at level 25, Ingredient Finder M at level 50, Helping Speed S at level 75 and Ingredient Finder S at level 100 with a brave nature (speed of help + and EXP Gain -). Please tell me if this would outperform Banette during the upcoming Halloween event or if I should even use this at all. Keep or trash?
Cant really say unless you also look at 1 how good is your Banette currently 2 how good is your herb coverage 3 how good is your mushroom coverage The answer to these 3 questions should give you an idea of whether it's worth using this Gengar
@@Bropenings Your wisdom is once again appreciated. I don't have a usable Banette at the moment and my herb coverage is certainly less than ideal while more mushroom coverage would be appreciated as well. I decided to evolve and use this Gengar for these reasons. I hope to get a good Banette for Halloween or something this year. Thank you.
Reminder that the list is relative to their berry specialist counterparts! So if the berry specialist sucks, the ing/skill specialist with BFS will look relatively good.
Finally, my Adamant BFS HB Gengar will be useful! Vinnie told me not to invest in him last year, and I feel super validated for being stubborn and ignoring his advice 😂 Edit: To be clear, Vinnie was 100% correct given the information we had at the time. I got lucky!
Times have changed since quagsire came. My advice 12 months ago is not the same as 6 months ago and is not the same as today. I also have several BFS gastly options that became viable now.
Daaaamn.. That was such a long video.. And I managed to sat through it till the end 😂 I was looking at my mons, and sadly as a f2p and without piggy's luck, I'm gonne be sticking to berry specialist.. Except that Gallade. I don't have a good Primeape so I'm considering to evolve my BFS+Spd nature Kirlia♂️
Please be aware that berry specialist with BFS is still the best. I made that clear at the start. These are secondary options only. Even dragonite doesn't beat altaria if they have the same stats and assuming you don't need ingredients.
Also Gallade doesn't make sense to me if you need resources for Gardevoir. Gardevoir also delivers most psychic berry currently when no other psychic berry specialist exists, but its skill trigger is still priority.
@@Bropenings yes, but I don't have any luck getting a BFS mankey, or skill trigger ralts.. Still looking for mons in Lapis, but I'm already near max area bonus.. No good ralts, dratini, or stufful yet 😫
Since psychic type was left out from the final list as there are no berries specs to compare with, do I still invest my BFS HB STM eevee into Espeon or wait for a psychic berry spec? I have a good Sylveon for healing. Vaporeon and flareon alr heavily invested. Still trying to find a decent ralts
It's really your decision to make. Here are some points to consider: 1 - HB helps the BFS on the berry output as long as there's not much ingredient up to compromise the berry. 2 - Gardevoir is actually the best with BFS as you saw, but Espeon came really close. However, I'd much rather Gardevoir not be harmed on its skill trigger rate so Espeon with BFS makes sense. 3 - Ampharos exists, has saving on seed and better skill rate, and perhaps better preparation for electric island in the future 4 - I'm personally holding out for a psychic berry specialists though
@@Bropenings thank you for sharing those considerations. Hopefully you get the eevee you're hunting for soon - was it like 80+ catches? and all the best for G'Day!
Does the BFS analysis on Arcanine, Jolteon, Gallade, and legendary dogs account for Helper Boost and Extra Helpful? Since the non legendaries have a 20% chance on landing on themselves
The skill produced berries aren't counted in this analysis. However I'm largely leaving skills out of this because it'll over complicate the analysis. I just wanted to show the difference of having BFS on different ingredient/skill specialists do not result in the same outcome on berries. How the skills matter to you, you'll have to analyse for yourself.
I know that this is a different scenario from the video but can I use a mono mushroom Wooper with Inv Up L (10), Ing Finder M (25), BFS (50) and Ing Up nature as my main mushroom finder? Or does BFS ruin it?
@@Bropenings Awesome! Looks like I finally found my mushroom farmer 😊. Thanks Brovinny! I started playing a couple of months ago and your videos have been extremely helpful, keep up the great work!
It depends on a lot of factors. However dish focus is more RNG based. Even the calculator only gives you an average based on crit rates. That average includes the end of week 3x dish crit rate and crit strength, overvaluing ingredients the rest of the week. My personal opinion (without looking at your entire account) is that berry specialist with BFS favorite should be priority and staple in every team/area. They should take 1-3 slots on the team, if not even more. If they happen to match ingredients that's perfect. The rest of the team should be whatever ingredients you need and a healer.
BFS + a lot of speed is one situation where Dragonite will be a true dual specialist that's actually excellent at both berry and ingredients (assuming you have a decent ingredient list). Altaria should be sweating like crazy.
@ScreamFuuu so it's more ingredient focussed and reduced berry focus despite having BFS due to the nature. It doesn't get the 16% proximity to a BFS houndoom I talked about, will be a bit less. But at L75 it bounces back again. The great news is mono + IF still makes an excellent ing specialist .
Does the BFS gengar actually have speed? Or is the BFS reduced in power due to having IF? If so then Banette with BFS will be better. Does ingredient Gengar main mushroom? (ABB ingredient list) If not then Quagsire is still better. Note that Quagsire is better then Gengar by a lot at L30 for mushrooms. at L60 the difference is smaller. Also consider the cost of raising 2 Gengar. Despite Gastly candies being easier to come by than either Banette and maybe Quagsire too, raising 2 is still a costly exercise.
if you are using a mixed specialist, it there merit to skipping mono ingredient on that pokemon? mono ingredient assumes you want to switch out that pokemon as early as possible. wouldn’t it be nice to get herb and corn from a bfs dragonite instead of being overloaded with herbs (if you aren’t switching)
Good question. However the prerequisite to even considering a mixed specialist option is that you already have ingredients covered. That means you should already have sufficient herbs. Dragonite is so strong at herbs it completely overshadows gengar and other herb options. If you don't have herbs sorted first, you may struggle on certain dish types. In your specific scenario, I would actually prefer to build separately a good mono herb IF dragonite and a BFS HS altaria. At the end of the day, altaria is still better than dragonite in berry farming. So once you've got enough for the dish/recipe/pot, it's time to run altaria.
So mono ingredient build is still important. This video tackles the problem of how we view BFS, as it isnt equally good in every Pokemon even if within the same specialty.
@@Bropenings so i have a great altaria and a great mono gengar. what kind of dragonite should i be looking for? i know dragonite is better at herbs, but im thinking mixed dragonite will be a good generalist and elite for keema on curry weeks
@jackbuchholz9609 well if you have mono gengar with IF stats that you're happy with for herbs, it might be worth considering mixed dragonite. Certainly a bit niche to do that right now considering there's no dragon berry island yet.
I have an amazing BFS gengar and a BFS helping bonus dragonite. I am watching now but I assume this vid is just saying how good a BFS dragonite and gengar are
Yes, but it's more complicated than that. I think most would think a good gengar and dragonite should have IF stats. But BFS can be severely harmed by amazing IF stats (I showed dragonite as an example). In which case BFS doesn't make as much sense.
Very well done analysis, but I think it oversimplifies the concept a little bit (I understand why though, for the sake of brevity. It is already a long video, and you discuss what I am about to mention in other videos, so I know that you understand the concept and it doesn't change the tier list at all, really). Basically, a pseudo-berry specialist is contributing to snorlax's strength not only through their berries, but also through the raw value of the ingredients they are outputting, assuming you do not have a full pot (this can be a limitation to what I am about to discuss) since berry specialists' ingredients are often used this way, and are a secondary consideration. Eliminating the raw value of the ingredients innately makes them appear worse than they actually are. If you take into account the value of these ingredients and compare them in terms of raw strength of berries+raw ingredients with their berry counterparts, then realistically, every single one of these pseudo-berry specialists would improve since the excess ingredients is where they shine. The big problem with presenting all of this nicely is because it now takes every mon in the game and makes them 6 different mons (or 4 in the case of toxicroak, marowak, and ampharos who I believe are the only mons with no C ingredient) in terms of evaluation. It also makes a mon like dragonite with ideal ingredient finding stats and BFS look a lot better than before. Evaluating the ingredient specialists on just their berries lacks the full picture of what is going on.
I’m not sure I fully understand your comment without an example, but I do agree it is kinda missing the point to only look at berries on an ing mon. That’s not really the reason we use them… like in very few cases would you want to purposely be sneaky snacking with a dragonite even though it does have a strong berry component. BFS should generally be thought of as bonus on top of the rest of the rolls on an ing mon. Weird cases like Dragonite vs Altaria only appear close because the berry mon in the comparison is underpowered. Same with stuff like Marowak and Arbok and so on. Not to mention the fact that most berry mons want to be sneaky snacking in the first place, so the actual berry numbers for them should be higher. The best comparison shown in this video imo was Gengar vs Skeledirge, it is a much better way to illustrate the point. Gengar obviously benefits much more with a naturally low ing% and high speed. And because neither of these mons want to be sneaky snacking, you will actually see that difference play out in practice.
@seda_11 you've pretty much hit the point exactly. The point is to understand the value of BFS in different "dual specialist" options as you've stated comparing Gengar to Skeledirge. This difference is not often understood because we don't often get reminded that BFS is an absolute increase and not a relative increase. As such it creates a vast range of berry outcomes (Quagsire is really bad at BFS option, but Suicune is somewhat neutral, whereas Dragonite, Meowscarada, Gengar, Gallade are at the top of berry output in non-berry specialists if they all have BFS). I've always suggested to use berry specialists (with BFS) in preference over all other BFS options as I stated right at the start of the video hoping that viewers don't go thinking dual specialists are better in any means. However, sub skills are randomly generated, and sometimes we must assess an ingredient Pokemon with BFS to see whether it's really harmful, helpful, or actually surprisingly decent. And as you can see from this analysis, it varies based on species and other stats. While with Dragonite is super strong, that if you simply add the ingredients as 'extra' ingredient strength, it would seem like Altaria is completely useless. But it's not as clear as that still, since: 1 - ingredient specialists want ingredient finding up, so if it had BFS it's not as useful. We should consider speed + BFS a better combo if you're wanting berries, than IF + BFS. IF + Speed is also a good combo but does a different job (ingredients). 2 - breakpoint considerations where players may leave dragonair/dragonite at L30 or L41. Whereas for Altaria you would put every single candy into raising its berry strength. So dragonite becomes less powerful at L41 berry strength if your altaria is L50.
@VelocityRaptor22 Yes exactly. I kept it simple to understand the value of BFS. There was no "tier list" regarding who was the better ingredient specialist - that was not the point. I don't often compare ingredient specialists unless they do the same ingredients (e.g. Gengar vs Dragonite is comparable). The list in the end is how close the non-berry specialist compares to their same type berry specialist counterparts if they all have BFS. As you saw, I said several times that the moment you give ingredient stats to the ingredient Pokemon (which is what we want often), BFS loses value. So BFS should be combined with speed instead. Let's take an example: Option 1) BFS + IFM AAA Gengar Option 2) BFS + HSM AAA Gengar Let's assume you have a great AAA Dragonite (with ingredient stats), and don't have a BFS banette. The former option for Gengar may seem useful at first, but taking a closer look the IFM actually reduces the berry outcome. Gengar being faster than Banette, the HSM with BFS makes it better than a base Banette without BFS, and quite close to a Banette with BFS. In this situation, after watching the analysis of this video, it's apparent that the second option is the one to go for (until a BFS+HSM Banette is found)
I wish I could take my main seed back from my Sudowoodoo... Mistakes were made and will continue to be made as the game changes. Don't worry about it too much.
@@Bropenings yeah at least he is a dual specialist. I got skill level up M on him so whenever normal berry is fav he could produce a decent amount and give me a lot of ingredients. It also gives me more things to hunt so now I can hunt for a bfs vigaorth. I actually got lucky and the slacking I currently have was the one and only slackoff I have ever caught so getting another bfs will be a harder long term goal and can come in handy whenever we get a normal legendary with helper boost normal.
I have yet to find a berry finding legendary. I don’t believe they exist. I think they are coded to not have BF or HB. Edit: friended a HB Suicune last night lol
@@iamSpenceGarcia Haha good stuff. Yeah I got very lucky with the Entei. It's +speed nature as well and no negative traits. Made me really focus on my fire mons for an amazing Taupe team!
wake up babe, brovinnie dropped a new video
Oh wow just spent an hour talking about two viewer's Dragonite and Gengars lmao!
43:53 "Clefable just does random stuff." I love that!
Thank you for such a thorough exploration of this topic. Though I can't become a member at this time, I SO appreciate content like this. 😄
Don't worry, you've also been supporting my content by leaving likes and comments.
Membership is temporary.
Friendship is forever.
I mean viewership.
love when the main guy drops a long vid💯💯💯
It was 90 minutes in raw footage video I had to cut down. Tried to keep it simple and it still went for 50 minutes.
@@Bropenings release the deleted scenes!
@@nuclearpistachio available on my OnlyBros
@@nuclearpistachio #releasebrovinnicut
Brovinnie delivers again! The Sleep community appriciates you, bro! (And piggy!)
The truth!!!!!!!
49:31 one of your best videos so far! Thanks for putting it together
The best investment is actually becoming a UA-cam Member and getting to support this great content!!
Oh damn maybe I was the real BFS all along
Once again thank you Vinnie! You help me grasp this game so much. Also got humbled watching Piggy outfarm my sleep score this week.
But to be fair, I didn’t run a great team this week. Building…
You can use a ing focused BFS Dragonite for Berry farming as well. Just let the Inventory get full
Yes you can, but what about speed? If you have BFS + speed, that Dragonite farms even more berry during sneaky snacking, and speed does not harm ingredients output during non-sneaky snacking.
for BFS+IFM, the ingredient finding harms berry output until sneaky snacking. During sneaky snacking it's only BFS without speed.
Of course, we could argue BFS+HSM+IFM would work even better. But that increases the difficulty of finding a good Dratini much more as you're now getting closer to looking for perfection. In which case, then perhaps we should just stick to Altaria with BFS+HSM, and let Dragonite just do IFM+HSM.
Very interesting information!! 👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻
Thank you for breakdown!
Thank you for your hard work on this!
Me with 3 quagsire with BFs watching this video...
My job here is done
I mentioned this in another comment but you really should be looking at berry mons with sneaky snacking enabled, since that’s generally the best way to use favored berry mons unless their ings happen to line up with a meta dish
Yes that's another situation to look at, would be 100 minutes video if I have to compare sneaky situation too. The reason I didn't is that "dual specialist" that uses BFS is already niche. Ingredient specialists still, by and large, need to do ingredients. The prerequisite utilizing any dual specialty like I said is that you already have ingredients covered.
Sneaky Snacking situation basically ignores ingredient rate and solely looks at speed. Unfortunately though that means if some players decided to invest their main skill levels, skills become wasted during sneaky snacking. I tried to compare the situations where players are allowed to still enjoy using their main skills (i.e. no sneaky snacking).
I havnt gotten an amazing ralts or even a decent stufful, but my BFS Speed up nature triple herb dratini made me cry tears of joy
Altaria be sweating
Can you make a video on to much ingredients and rotation to keep the energy up. Overall I find that my berry specialist give me to much ingredients. Should I be sneaky snacking more?
The obvious choice would be to find a berry specialist that also matches correct ingredients, but that's generally hard to do which is why I usually recommend building mono ingredients so they stay on the team as short a time as possible and then just using berry specialists the rest of the time.
A full pokebox and team analysis is needed for each account specifically which option would be best.
oh yeah. Then, I am confused. I have a Gastly with ingredients (Fiery herb, Mushroom, oils) at level 13 with Berry Finding S at level 10, Skill Level up m at level 25, Ingredient Finder M at level 50, Helping Speed S at level 75 and Ingredient Finder S at level 100 with a brave nature (speed of help + and EXP Gain -). Please tell me if this would outperform Banette during the upcoming Halloween event or if I should even use this at all. Keep or trash?
Cant really say unless you also look at
1 how good is your Banette currently
2 how good is your herb coverage
3 how good is your mushroom coverage
The answer to these 3 questions should give you an idea of whether it's worth using this Gengar
@@Bropenings Your wisdom is once again appreciated. I don't have a usable Banette at the moment and my herb coverage is certainly less than ideal while more mushroom coverage would be appreciated as well. I decided to evolve and use this Gengar for these reasons. I hope to get a good Banette for Halloween or something this year. Thank you.
I am glad to see my bfs dugtrio lucario arcanine jolteon are high on the list.
Reminder that the list is relative to their berry specialist counterparts! So if the berry specialist sucks, the ing/skill specialist with BFS will look relatively good.
Finally, my Adamant BFS HB Gengar will be useful! Vinnie told me not to invest in him last year, and I feel super validated for being stubborn and ignoring his advice 😂
Edit: To be clear, Vinnie was 100% correct given the information we had at the time. I got lucky!
Times have changed since quagsire came. My advice 12 months ago is not the same as 6 months ago and is not the same as today.
I also have several BFS gastly options that became viable now.
@@Bropenings Oh, I know, it was dumb luck that the meta changed lol
Daaaamn.. That was such a long video.. And I managed to sat through it till the end 😂
I was looking at my mons, and sadly as a f2p and without piggy's luck, I'm gonne be sticking to berry specialist..
Except that Gallade. I don't have a good Primeape so I'm considering to evolve my BFS+Spd nature Kirlia♂️
Please be aware that berry specialist with BFS is still the best. I made that clear at the start. These are secondary options only. Even dragonite doesn't beat altaria if they have the same stats and assuming you don't need ingredients.
Also Gallade doesn't make sense to me if you need resources for Gardevoir. Gardevoir also delivers most psychic berry currently when no other psychic berry specialist exists, but its skill trigger is still priority.
@@Bropenings yes, but I don't have any luck getting a BFS mankey, or skill trigger ralts.. Still looking for mons in Lapis, but I'm already near max area bonus.. No good ralts, dratini, or stufful yet 😫
Since psychic type was left out from the final list as there are no berries specs to compare with, do I still invest my BFS HB STM eevee into Espeon or wait for a psychic berry spec?
I have a good Sylveon for healing. Vaporeon and flareon alr heavily invested. Still trying to find a decent ralts
It's really your decision to make. Here are some points to consider:
1 - HB helps the BFS on the berry output as long as there's not much ingredient up to compromise the berry.
2 - Gardevoir is actually the best with BFS as you saw, but Espeon came really close. However, I'd much rather Gardevoir not be harmed on its skill trigger rate so Espeon with BFS makes sense.
3 - Ampharos exists, has saving on seed and better skill rate, and perhaps better preparation for electric island in the future
4 - I'm personally holding out for a psychic berry specialists though
@@Bropenings thank you for sharing those considerations. Hopefully you get the eevee you're hunting for soon - was it like 80+ catches? and all the best for G'Day!
Fortunately I got a pretty decent shiny meowth with BS so going to use him either way 🎉
Could you make a graphic of this on discord? Thanks for all the work you do!
Does the BFS analysis on Arcanine, Jolteon, Gallade, and legendary dogs account for Helper Boost and Extra Helpful? Since the non legendaries have a 20% chance on landing on themselves
I’m under the impression that bfs is a requirement on extra helpful Pokémon for that chance of landing itself on activation
The skill produced berries aren't counted in this analysis. However I'm largely leaving skills out of this because it'll over complicate the analysis. I just wanted to show the difference of having BFS on different ingredient/skill specialists do not result in the same outcome on berries. How the skills matter to you, you'll have to analyse for yourself.
I know that this is a different scenario from the video but can I use a mono mushroom Wooper with Inv Up L (10), Ing Finder M (25), BFS (50) and Ing Up nature as my main mushroom finder? Or does BFS ruin it?
It's a great one.
BFS doesn't ruin it because you have inventory L.
In fact it's overall excellent
@@Bropenings Awesome! Looks like I finally found my mushroom farmer 😊. Thanks Brovinny! I started playing a couple of months ago and your videos have been extremely helpful, keep up the great work!
in most cases, if my team cannot fulfill both favoutie berries and ingredients for some nice dishes at the same time, which one should I tend to?
It depends on a lot of factors. However dish focus is more RNG based. Even the calculator only gives you an average based on crit rates. That average includes the end of week 3x dish crit rate and crit strength, overvaluing ingredients the rest of the week.
My personal opinion (without looking at your entire account) is that berry specialist with BFS favorite should be priority and staple in every team/area. They should take 1-3 slots on the team, if not even more. If they happen to match ingredients that's perfect. The rest of the team should be whatever ingredients you need and a healer.
I've got a ghastly with bfs & helping bonus and speedup/ing. Down nature that's been waiting to hear this news lol
Sounds like you've got a great gengar if:
1 You don't have a good banette
2 You've already got herbs/mushrooms sorted
I love my BFS triple speed boost Dragonite ;)
BFS + a lot of speed is one situation where Dragonite will be a true dual specialist that's actually excellent at both berry and ingredients (assuming you have a decent ingredient list). Altaria should be sweating like crazy.
Glad to see BFS Mono potato sprigatito i caught today seems to be god😂🎉
Does it have speed too?
STM - IUM 25 - BFS 50 - HSS 75. IF Up nature. Thoughts?
@ScreamFuuu so it's more ingredient focussed and reduced berry focus despite having BFS due to the nature.
It doesn't get the 16% proximity to a BFS houndoom I talked about, will be a bit less. But at L75 it bounces back again. The great news is mono + IF still makes an excellent ing specialist .
What if i have a bfs gengar, a fiery herb and an ing finder gengar. Should i stop at hunting banette and quagsire?
Does the BFS gengar actually have speed? Or is the BFS reduced in power due to having IF? If so then Banette with BFS will be better.
Does ingredient Gengar main mushroom? (ABB ingredient list) If not then Quagsire is still better.
Note that Quagsire is better then Gengar by a lot at L30 for mushrooms. at L60 the difference is smaller.
Also consider the cost of raising 2 Gengar. Despite Gastly candies being easier to come by than either Banette and maybe Quagsire too, raising 2 is still a costly exercise.
if you are using a mixed specialist, it there merit to skipping mono ingredient on that pokemon? mono ingredient assumes you want to switch out that pokemon as early as possible. wouldn’t it be nice to get herb and corn from a bfs dragonite instead of being overloaded with herbs (if you aren’t switching)
Good question. However the prerequisite to even considering a mixed specialist option is that you already have ingredients covered. That means you should already have sufficient herbs. Dragonite is so strong at herbs it completely overshadows gengar and other herb options. If you don't have herbs sorted first, you may struggle on certain dish types.
In your specific scenario, I would actually prefer to build separately a good mono herb IF dragonite and a BFS HS altaria.
At the end of the day, altaria is still better than dragonite in berry farming. So once you've got enough for the dish/recipe/pot, it's time to run altaria.
So mono ingredient build is still important. This video tackles the problem of how we view BFS, as it isnt equally good in every Pokemon even if within the same specialty.
@@Bropenings so i have a great altaria and a great mono gengar. what kind of dragonite should i be looking for? i know dragonite is better at herbs, but im thinking mixed dragonite will be a good generalist and elite for keema on curry weeks
@jackbuchholz9609 well if you have mono gengar with IF stats that you're happy with for herbs, it might be worth considering mixed dragonite.
Certainly a bit niche to do that right now considering there's no dragon berry island yet.
I have an amazing BFS gengar and a BFS helping bonus dragonite. I am watching now but I assume this vid is just saying how good a BFS dragonite and gengar are
Yes, but it's more complicated than that.
I think most would think a good gengar and dragonite should have IF stats. But BFS can be severely harmed by amazing IF stats (I showed dragonite as an example). In which case BFS doesn't make as much sense.
@@Bropenings my dragonite and gengar don’t get IF until level 75 and the gengar has an ingridient finding down nature
most of my (older) pokemon berry finding is at level 75 and 100...
Very well done analysis, but I think it oversimplifies the concept a little bit (I understand why though, for the sake of brevity. It is already a long video, and you discuss what I am about to mention in other videos, so I know that you understand the concept and it doesn't change the tier list at all, really). Basically, a pseudo-berry specialist is contributing to snorlax's strength not only through their berries, but also through the raw value of the ingredients they are outputting, assuming you do not have a full pot (this can be a limitation to what I am about to discuss) since berry specialists' ingredients are often used this way, and are a secondary consideration. Eliminating the raw value of the ingredients innately makes them appear worse than they actually are. If you take into account the value of these ingredients and compare them in terms of raw strength of berries+raw ingredients with their berry counterparts, then realistically, every single one of these pseudo-berry specialists would improve since the excess ingredients is where they shine. The big problem with presenting all of this nicely is because it now takes every mon in the game and makes them 6 different mons (or 4 in the case of toxicroak, marowak, and ampharos who I believe are the only mons with no C ingredient) in terms of evaluation. It also makes a mon like dragonite with ideal ingredient finding stats and BFS look a lot better than before. Evaluating the ingredient specialists on just their berries lacks the full picture of what is going on.
I’m not sure I fully understand your comment without an example, but I do agree it is kinda missing the point to only look at berries on an ing mon. That’s not really the reason we use them… like in very few cases would you want to purposely be sneaky snacking with a dragonite even though it does have a strong berry component.
BFS should generally be thought of as bonus on top of the rest of the rolls on an ing mon. Weird cases like Dragonite vs Altaria only appear close because the berry mon in the comparison is underpowered. Same with stuff like Marowak and Arbok and so on. Not to mention the fact that most berry mons want to be sneaky snacking in the first place, so the actual berry numbers for them should be higher.
The best comparison shown in this video imo was Gengar vs Skeledirge, it is a much better way to illustrate the point. Gengar obviously benefits much more with a naturally low ing% and high speed. And because neither of these mons want to be sneaky snacking, you will actually see that difference play out in practice.
@seda_11 you've pretty much hit the point exactly. The point is to understand the value of BFS in different "dual specialist" options as you've stated comparing Gengar to Skeledirge. This difference is not often understood because we don't often get reminded that BFS is an absolute increase and not a relative increase. As such it creates a vast range of berry outcomes (Quagsire is really bad at BFS option, but Suicune is somewhat neutral, whereas Dragonite, Meowscarada, Gengar, Gallade are at the top of berry output in non-berry specialists if they all have BFS).
I've always suggested to use berry specialists (with BFS) in preference over all other BFS options as I stated right at the start of the video hoping that viewers don't go thinking dual specialists are better in any means. However, sub skills are randomly generated, and sometimes we must assess an ingredient Pokemon with BFS to see whether it's really harmful, helpful, or actually surprisingly decent. And as you can see from this analysis, it varies based on species and other stats.
While with Dragonite is super strong, that if you simply add the ingredients as 'extra' ingredient strength, it would seem like Altaria is completely useless. But it's not as clear as that still, since:
1 - ingredient specialists want ingredient finding up, so if it had BFS it's not as useful. We should consider speed + BFS a better combo if you're wanting berries, than IF + BFS. IF + Speed is also a good combo but does a different job (ingredients).
2 - breakpoint considerations where players may leave dragonair/dragonite at L30 or L41. Whereas for Altaria you would put every single candy into raising its berry strength. So dragonite becomes less powerful at L41 berry strength if your altaria is L50.
@VelocityRaptor22 Yes exactly. I kept it simple to understand the value of BFS. There was no "tier list" regarding who was the better ingredient specialist - that was not the point. I don't often compare ingredient specialists unless they do the same ingredients (e.g. Gengar vs Dragonite is comparable). The list in the end is how close the non-berry specialist compares to their same type berry specialist counterparts if they all have BFS.
As you saw, I said several times that the moment you give ingredient stats to the ingredient Pokemon (which is what we want often), BFS loses value. So BFS should be combined with speed instead.
Let's take an example:
Option 1) BFS + IFM AAA Gengar
Option 2) BFS + HSM AAA Gengar
Let's assume you have a great AAA Dragonite (with ingredient stats), and don't have a BFS banette.
The former option for Gengar may seem useful at first, but taking a closer look the IFM actually reduces the berry outcome. Gengar being faster than Banette, the HSM with BFS makes it better than a base Banette without BFS, and quite close to a Banette with BFS. In this situation, after watching the analysis of this video, it's apparent that the second option is the one to go for (until a BFS+HSM Banette is found)
I wish I could unevolve my bfs slacking. It was an early game mistake I did.
I wish I could take my main seed back from my Sudowoodoo...
Mistakes were made and will continue to be made as the game changes. Don't worry about it too much.
@@Bropenings yeah at least he is a dual specialist. I got skill level up M on him so whenever normal berry is fav he could produce a decent amount and give me a lot of ingredients. It also gives me more things to hunt so now I can hunt for a bfs vigaorth. I actually got lucky and the slacking I currently have was the one and only slackoff I have ever caught so getting another bfs will be a harder long term goal and can come in handy whenever we get a normal legendary with helper boost normal.
Mannn same for bothh 😢
imsightful
I have yet to find a berry finding legendary. I don’t believe they exist. I think they are coded to not have BF or HB.
Edit: friended a HB Suicune last night lol
I have a BFS Entei! So they are out there. Only one I've found though. Caught 2 Raikou, 4 Entei and 6 Suicine.
@@SenpaiTorpidDOW that’s awesome, Congrats!! I woke up the next morning and friended a Helping Bonus Suicune so I was immediately proved wrong lol
@@iamSpenceGarcia Haha good stuff. Yeah I got very lucky with the Entei. It's +speed nature as well and no negative traits.
Made me really focus on my fire mons for an amazing Taupe team!
Got yesterday a suicune with bfs, with helping speed M and nature speed up energy down. Its a keeper