Mark Cavendish was chucked off the UK Elite Performance programme because his ramp test numbers were too low. But historically even his recovery rides are over 2 hours in duration. So yes, the lab tests did not capture his ability to put out 1600 W on the Champs Elysees at the end of a 3 week race!
I am 62 y/o now. After 30years off the bike I started cycling again at 58y/o using high intensity interval training. Had great results in the first two years but then no improvements just bouts of nonfunctional over-reaching and then repeated burn out. At 61 I was going to quit but by chance I came across the POLARIZED method of training and it saved my cycling life! Great results this year, steady improvements with no significant overreaching episodes. I am able to hold a relatively high fitness level (CTL) and continue to improve. Thank you Dr. Seiler!
Hi! I am a big fan of your training philosophie, I am 52 years old, in my younger years i raced elite/amateur road races, then i had a break for 10 years with no cycling. since 5 years I train regulary on the road bike. CP2: 7,1W, CP5: 6,1W, CP10: 5,20W, CP20 5,10W and in a TT event for 59min 4,7W(353W) since one year I train polarized. this gave me an extra boost! in my age of 52, i think this is a perfect training system. with sweetspot and ftp workouts I quickly reached a plateau. Now polarized 90/10 and 15-20h per week. 2 times a week HIT sessions, always after restday/recoveryday 😅 My cardiac drift on the long rides (3-5h) is max 4% when I stay under 200W avg and HR 120, if I am only 20 W over that threshold the drift goes at 8%or more and I need a longer recovery. If I stay under 200W, the next day my legs are fresh. best regards! JT
Good to know, thx for sharing. How do you keep your CP at your 5,1W? You do HIT workout but don't you train at your FTP? Where's you place the principle of specificity in this? Cheers
I've heard your podcast with Velonews (Coach Connor & Co.) and found them insightful but this visual presentation is excellent. Thank you for sharing your vast knowledge.
Love listening to you wherever it is. I started duathlon 1 year ago and was fortunate to reading about your method through the books and listening to you in the fast talk podcast since the beginnings. I've made huge improvements along this year and feel as fresh as a daisy even though I'm training big volume. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
When i'm training LIT now, I have learned to go out with hidden HR and hidden power. My only mission: don't go out too hard, feel my legs and aim for whatever pace I feel i could literally hold all day. This discussion should not be carried out without careful control of recovery status and nutrition. For me personally, I know that my power/HR and RPE correlation depends rather heavily on my nutritional effectiveness. If i'm under-fed, or glycogen depleted, I feel that my "go all day by feel pace" turns out to have a average HR at 70% of HRmax. but on the other hand, If i fuel well prior to ride, and I take 60g-70g of sugar every hour, my "go all day by feel pace" ends up at average HR of 75%-79% of HR max and my power is naturally considerably higher. So basically i think that with low intensity endurance training, we should just let our feelings be our guide and accept that our physiological readiness will have a great deal of influence on what specifically we can do for performance on a given day. And i really like to study the graphs like you describe: after my ride as a means to evaluate how my ride by feel pace was or if i was going to hit a wall. it's a powerful feedback mechanism right?
I know I'm late to the party. However, your conclusion especially makes sense considering that when your body is not properly fuelled up, your practically achievable HRmax for that day is quite a bit lower than you theoretical HRmax on a good day. So your feel during a specific training actually tells you the same % of your HRmax for that day every time cause your achievable HRmax fluctuates.
Dear Dr Seiler, Thank you so much for an outstanding content. Also, your speech pattern and sound quality make the valuable teaching easier to absorb. Thank you for your work. I subscribed 💚👍
Thanks for you presentation. Its nice job, triathlon and endurance sports is the meca to researchs, tips and practice is the key for evolution in this sports. Thanks Dr Seiler. Venezuelan coachTriathlon in Argentina
There are some great insights here Stephen: I am really looking forward to the publication of complete results in due course! Your presentation here inspires the following questions: INTENSITY/DURATION I hear you that there’s no general answer to the question “how low is too low”, and the training prescription should be a function of the individual’s physical characteristics and typical session duration. But how high is too high? Logically, the upper bound is LT1, but this is only helpful if we actually know the athlete’s LT1. Even then, should we train as close as possible to LT1, or should we leave a 10-20W margin for error and work on increasing the duration? I personally did the tests at 60% of est. 60 min FTP. I could have chosen 70% and still (I believe) be below my LT1: would this result in more adaptation, or simply more fatigue? ONSET OF CARDIAC DRIFT? In the preliminary data presented in the video, nobody seems to get past 2h30 steady riding on a turbo without experiencing HR drift, and for most the drift starts at 2h. This concurs with my own experience. Considering “well-trained” cyclists, is this 2h-2h30 “threshold” for the onset of cardiac drift a general rule, or just an artefact of this group? What do you see in pro cyclists? Could it be delayed out to 3h, 4h or even more in the best-trained ultra-distance cyclists? If the onset of cardiac drift can be extended by appropriate training, then the point at which it starts might be a useful indicator, or even a training objective for some. CARDIAC DRIFT AS A FIELD TEST TO DETERMINE LT1? Would repeated 2h rides on the turbo at increasing steady power levels give a good field indicator for LT1 as being the power at which cardiac drift becomes significant during a 2h ride? For example, if a 2h ride at 190W returned no cardiac drift, but a ride performed under the same conditions at 200W returned significant drift, would this indicate reliably that LT1 was somewhere between 190 and 200W? What would be “significant drift” in this context? Finally, a big thank you: this work is of huge value to those of us interested by endurance performance. Marvin
You probably dont care but does anybody know of a way to get back into an instagram account..? I was stupid lost the password. I would love any assistance you can give me!
@Grayson Beckett i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site through google and I'm trying it out now. Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will reply here later with my results.
Awesome video sir, I liked the final thesis you made about lit being your platform for the high intensity. Will most definitely watch more videos and hopefully it will help me as an athlete. Thank you!
Excellent lecture on low intensity training. Thank you. Your last statement regarding the trainability of the drift and it’s impact on high intensity efforts is one that I’m anxious to hear more about. This is where the “rubber meets the road” for the aspiring racer. Will definitely subscribe to get the rest of the training story.
I did a 6h session today, the last hour required additional motivation (race videos), the last half hour required loud music and was really though to finish!
@ 32:00 . . . I doubt anyone actually meant to suggest that 220 minus age would be a max HR that we are talking about. I'm 70 years old (rounding) and 150 is right between my first and second ESTIMATED thresholds. Decades ago I heard it quoted as 220 minus your age was the *max SUSTAINABLE* heart rate which is about right. I can sustain exercise at 150 bpm for quit some time but not a full 2hrs.
If sticking to constant heart rate is there any benefit training past cardiac drift ,ie running slower for same intensity or is this a sign the training session is finished
For people who want to dispense with the need for a max hr and 6-min power, you can simply compare beats above resting hr to power. This only removes a couple of constants and the respective trends are the same. A ratio gives you Watts per reserve heartbeat.
So, as take-home advice, would you recommend increasing the overall duration of the longest easy session (long run/ride) or rather increase all the easy sessions proportionally?
Hi Stephen! Thanks for taking the time to post this explanation. I think the point Daniel Hernandez makes below is an interesting one, and something I've seen reflected in my recent endurance rides. Basically, after a café stop with a bit of cake and some coffee, I see my heart rate rise and stay elevated. Each time that's happened however, the opportunity to fuel and have some coffee actually reduced perceived effort, even making a slightly harder output feel easier. In the end, I don't really feel I can do a 3+ hour ride without fueling at some point, which surely makes it more difficult to ascertain how much drift is actually corresponding to physiological cost from exercise and how much is due to digestion and/or stimulant intake.
Stephen, I particularly liked this edition since it showed not only the HRR, which is a concept I thought of as being missing in the normal literature, it completely makes sense; but also the ration %HRR/%INEX_S which seems a real nice measure as it really quantifies hear rate drift.
@ 37:27 - I wonder how you have controlled for diet in these experiments, if for example, an athlete is fat adapted (in ketosis), would they see as much of the Internal/External deviation that you describe, or is this more directly tied to glucose levels? According to Dr. Maffetone, one of the reasons we train the aerobic system is to improve the body's capacity to use fat as a fuel source, particularly for exercise in the lower heart rate training zones. If the diet does not support that, however, and is instead focused on carbohydrates as the main fuel source, this energy reserve is not as easily available, and the glycogen reserves being finite, the athlete has a limited window for peak performance. Could that deviation be due primarily to the glycogen reserves becoming depleted?
drift became super apparent to me the other day. running high noon full exposure sun in the desert. really easy pace half marathon.. looked down at my watch at mile 11 and I was at Max HR! I couldn't believe it. It didn't 'feel' like it per se, but the heat caused the drift. normally at that pace id be running at about 70% Max HR. really amazed me.
The heat caused dehydration, which is the same thing that happens when riding inside with insufficient cooling. I have noticed this on long indoor sessions at 180-200w, HR goes up 10-20 beats after long enough time, and if I weigh myself after the session, sure enough I have sweated out 1-2 kilos, dehydrated means thicker blood I guess, and more beats needed to transport the oxygen.
@9:50 . . . 2.25 hrs is my shortest sessions and it's usually 2.5 to 5 hrs at low intensity and the only part of my body that does not feel good afterwards is my feet. I might get exhausted if it's hot and sunny because by 5 hrs it's noon and the sun is pretty intense some days. If I do an 8-10 hour hike my HR drifts up quite a bit but I usually don't feel it the next day unless I have a really big hill (3-4 thousand foot climb). This sounds like good fitness but just about anyone that's not overweight and has minimal conditioning can do this and I'm 69 years old
I am probably just thick, but where is it summarised re “how low is too low”? How easy can my easy runs be before they’re no longer effective? I caught the summary at the end too but still left me puzzled as to how to work it out, would have been great if some stock examples were prepared. I have a max HR of 199. My resting HR is on average; 58. This gives me a HRR of 141. My usual zone 2 runs are 60-75 minutes at 70-78% of Max HR. How low is too low? How do I work that out? If I am out with a friend who is slower and my average HR is now 120 or 60% of my max, how long do I need to run for to not make it a waste of time? Or is it never a waste of time at 60% of Max? When is a waste of time? 50% of max?
Maybe my heart is just a weirdo... but I'm experiencing (by measuring) reverse cardiac drift every time I get out on a Z2 (5 zones model) endurance ride! 46YO / 180cm / 70Kgs Cyclist here, data freak, Powermeter always in check. Endurance ride I chose roads that allow me to keep pedaling at a given constant intensity for hours without leaving behind nearly any pedal stroke (no fast descents, no significant traffic intersections), I just keep pedaling. It happens that after an initial 20-30 minutes warm up in Z1, I start with Z2 (example 175W for me is mid Z2) and my HR reaches a certain value after a few minutes (example 152 bpm, HR Z2,9) and it stays there for the first hour approximately. Then after 1h / 1,5h it starts dropping and it keeps going down the longer I go. In short after 4 or 5 hours of same Z2 power I can end up cycling with a HR value of 142 - 144 (HR Z2,3 - 2,4). Am I an alien? Or my powermeter is to be trashed? Stephen, any experience with such cardiac behavior within your researches? Thanks for sharing all this good stuff with us!
really interesting, I've only just started getting more interested in endurance (having competed in and coached Olympic lifting in the past). I've noticed some people in cycling making claims about this ability to repeat efforts near their maximum power output without losing performance. In order to express high power it takes skill (optimised motor patterns and neural pathways specific to the activity), the ability to recruit high threshold motor units all at the same time, and probably also override Golgi tendon organ inhibition. In weightlifting, an advanced athlete can do a very short and intense session which requires lots of recovery and they run much higher risks of injury. Whereas, a beginner doing the same rep range (e.g. 3 sets of 3 at 90% of their maximum), might feel like they haven't done anything. In some cases, a great ability to perform repeated efforts close to maximum, maybe more of an indicator that the athlete has not learned to express high forces in a short time window or "empty the tank". I know its a bit of a pessimistic view but I'd be interested in your thoughts. Also, I don't see why cyclists dont incorporate proper modern training methods for increasing explosive strength (not talking about track riders obviously). I cant see why improving your neuromuscular efficiency is incompatible with aerobic adaptations.
I think actually a decent number of pro tour riders do incorporate weightlifting into their routine, at least in the off season (I'm assuming that's what you mean by modern training methods for increasing explosive strength!).however i;m aware that some may cut down or completely eliminate weightlifting during the season due to the heavy workload from training and racing
Ben Hardie yeah building strength in the off season seems like a good idea as the training effect will last a long time. I’ve seen one pro talking about lifting weights but his exercise selection and rep range didn’t sound too great for getting more explosive. It could be that he’s not very strong or good at lifting yet so a more simple general type of training is still giving him good results though
@@bobbyatopk yea, I think all cyclists can benefit from weight training even if it's not quite the right kind. the advantages seem obvious and significant haha. i suspect that some cyclists are concerned about maintaining a low race weight, to help with climbing performance, and they may be concerned that weight training will pack on too much muscle and be detrimental. which I don't think would happen unless you are also eating a tremendous amount of food, but I'm no expert haha
There is a difference between those riders who are able to empty the tank in 1 all out effort and those who can do repeated (for them) all out efforts. They are two extremely different disciplines. Ask your person who can do empty the tank weight lift efforts to do 100 reps at 50% of that weight... I used to do track sprinting and now I've switched to more endurance based training - I can't quite dial in that intensity in an all out effort like I used to (and therefore achieve the same acceleration or speeds). You just can't do both at the same time. Having said that, having experienced the "emptying the tank" still helps me in recovering from efforts quickly and putting it all on the line in the final sprint. I can go there but there's not as much in the well. Hope that makes sense..
At 20:20 the chart shows dissoziation between power and hr after 2hrs and the claim is that lactate goes up as well. I am not sure. Couldn't it be that carb stores deplete and a higher fat metabolism rate takes place which needs more oxygen and thus HR goes up. A lactate measure could clarify that.
Even if the athlete went from 100% carbs to 100% fats, that would increase vo2 by ~6,7%. I think this phenomenon might explain some of the drift in power vs. Hr, but definitely not all of it. There are other mechanisms in play aswell.
I am a 70 year old cyclist. I do polo rides training and perform my low intensity rides at 60% to 65% of my heart rate reserve. (Rhr 48, max hr 178, hr reserve 130, 60 to 65% 126-133). I only use heart rate since I do not have a power meter. Through the season my speed increases overall and I find that after 2 to 2 1/2 hours of my typical ride my speed decline as I focus on maintaining my target heart rate. First am I calculating my target hr correctly, secondly do you think I should increase my duration throughout the season or accept the increased speed as suitable overload.
Very interesting presentation, I have thrown out HIIT structure training this year. Changed it for zone 2 endurance training 80% and Zwift racing 20% effort all out. Since January I have moved my ftp from 261 to 327. My high limit for zone 2 as moved from 195 watts to 246 without cardiac drift over 1h50. But never done 2h on the trainer while on steady state. You mentioned in your video how to solve IN/EX_S. My 6 mins power is 378, max HR 193, rest HR is 58. I have been trying to solve this value for myself and I’m missing something. Right now I’m tracking aerobic decoupling in Golden Cheetah. Once it steadies below 2% on my new FTP results, I retest every three weeks or so and get better results. I have noticed that my power output as decreased in the 30 seconds to 3 mins range while increasing in the 5 mins to 90 mins range. It flattened my power profile a bit. But for me it’s ok because I ride for pleasure, but I like to move at a good pace too!
Salut Renaud, do you have a guide on how to use Golden Cheetah ? I like the HRPW chart but it seems like I'm missing on the main functionalities. Let me know. thanks
@@lereveure Salut David :) I don't have a specific guide on Golden Cheetah, I picked up lots of information from GC's wiki for different definitions and read up "Training and racing with a power meter" from Allen and Coggan. Besides the all out efforts twice a week, I'm really constant on efforts and the zwift course that I do for Zone2, so I get the same information to analyse. The two main values I keep an eye on are Areobic Decoupling % and efficiency factor. Once Aerobic decoupling stabalizes around 2% and I see increases of the efficiency factor, I know I'm up for a FTP test. Usually around 2-3 weeks, I'll do a test tempo run at the start of zone 3 to confirm that decoupling does not occur and efficiency factor goes up. In other word, I'm attempting to see if I'll get a cardiac drift. This is why, I found this presentation good, If I can find my IN/EX_S and input in GC, I think I would be able to fine tune my training and efforts. Another metric that I use in GC is Wbal to keep an eye on the potential energy I have to finish off a climb in real life, there's a function in Garmin that you can input Wbal and it will show to your garmin screen.
Another really helpful piece in appreciating how to structure, undertake, measure and understand effective training methods and their impact. This and other pieces from you helpfully challenge the 'received wisdom' contained in some long-standing yet often less-than-impactful (and sometimes harmful) training ideas and methods. Heart rate reserve was a particularly helpful reference for me and something I'd come across in Keith Livingstone's book, 'Healthy Intelligent Training', an excellent review of the great Arthur Lydiard's training methodology for runners. Thanks again for publishing these videos.
Regarding cardiac drift, at a given intensity or power output (for low intensity) should drift be ignored or should effort be reduced to cause HR to drop back to the zone 1 max HR percentage? I ask because surely reducing effort to counteract drift would seem to reduce the work load and therefore the training effect that causes adaptation.
Training effects can come without serious stress. You can train the parasympathetic system by keeping things low intensity with huge potential for your high intensity systems, without ever training it directly. Now if want a shorter stress effect at the end of your long runs, you can choose some kind of reasonable time to let things drift. I think what Dr. Seiler is saying that choose a dose of stress that is appropriate. I typically run a couple miles to a few miles past my point of drift on some long runs. I think it's fine to also stop when you start to see the drift. It might depend on what type of stress you think you can take based on your current training load. But you can still get a lot of benefit without stress incurred by going past your aerobic threshold.
its worth taking a look at Remmert Weilinga s strava. he has most of the climbing koms around monaco and is in his mid 40s! he seams to ride moslty in zone 1 or 2 but puts in a threshold, ie kom effort, every single ride. from 5 mins to an hour at threshold every single ride.
Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge! That's exactly the questions I asked myself often but know I have an idea of what tools I can use and what data to look at to asses what's the appropriate intensity / duration for my low intensity training. Thanks!
40+ yrs training. i find target heart range THR and hydration levels HL are the keys to intensity and duration. Look forward to listening to what you say, just dont have time today with increasing mileage, THR rises and HL decline more slowly. after 75,000+ miles running, can say it works for me. improving plan for me is 1/4 mile distance increase every 5 days. with cross training (weights/calisthenics) increasing weekly too. current plan is just to see how far i can take it. hehe i dont believe in running >14mi/day anymore in training as HL cannot be maintained but 2X per day pretty sure i can get well beyond 14/day. Diet composition also very much in my mind every day too. for me, i believe very high hydration and shorter workouts more efficient for faster progress and faster recovery. good luck!
Hey Dr. Seiler, what are you thoughts on cross training during low intensity sessions, particularly for us injury prone runners. I enjoy cycling but not racing on bikes and my true passion is running, but I am super injury prone when I do too much mileage. Do you think I can closely mimic high volume training with lots of cycling during recovery days (like 2+ hours) and then two running workouts a week?
Super A Mazing, ...there is also an interesting point around the first hour when doing easy workouts well below 50%, the RPE simply drops lower in a moment (from experience)
Humans have either walked , jogged and sprinted . So the human body must be designed for all 3 of the movements , and ofcourse walking , humans would spend at least 90 percent walking . So our ancestors were probably masters of polarised training 🤔 so I would say your approach to training is spot on
It may be that very fit and elite athletes train optimally at lower relative intensities ( relative to max HR, VO2 max, or thresholds) but higher absolute intensities (pace or power). Sedentary people seem to respond faster to higher relative intensities and obviously lower absolute intensities.
Some really interesting stuff here. When considering factors that determine IN/EX_S time of onset and magnitude, loss of ions (notably Na, K, Mg) through perspiration could also play a role.
How does the Ingebrigtsen brothers style of training fit into polarized training methods? Do their threshold workouts count as borderline zone 4 training?
It would be interesting to see blood lactate levels in the same graph though, for example the guy at 22:14 was riding for 5 hours just below lt1 but heart rate keeps climbing. Would you also be able to see a similar incline in lactate levels?
Question: Fantastic info. HRR seems to give a lot of valuable info . But to calibrate this for runners, what would we use in place of %6minute power? The Apple Watch does provide power data now, and I’m going to assume their power data is close, and if it isn’t, it looks to be at least consistent with HR, effort etc. Is there anything else a runner can use for calibration ? (I don’t want to get the foot pod). Or some other metric besides %6min power?
There are some clues to these questions in the Schantz 1983 paper with cross country skiing 30 hours per week at low intensity and the Dudley 1982 study with rats running on treadmills. I think the Dudley paper has an error in calculating relative intensities, and rats' red fast twitch fibers surprisingly have more cytochrome c than slow-twitch unlike humans, but the graphs are very thought-provoking and educational despite not distinguishing between mitochondria volume and function. It does appear that optimal training for capillary development is complicated, and there's very little research on how to increase stroke volume.
I wish I have found your work earlier. I mean not some month earlier, earlier in life. I stopped running 11 years ago. Training was like all out for 1 hour, 6-7 days a week. Idiotic. I tried running at lower heart rate some times, it seems not to be possible. 170 felt just fine untill it did not :-). So I am 51 now. LT1 ist 154, HRmax193. I can run, row and bike well below LT1/VT1 for 1-2 hours. I sleep well and recovery is done less than 24 hours after training. VO2max goes up, times get better on the same HR. I do not think I will win anything in the future but I like the training and I feel good in general.
My question is: Did these athletes start training at a higher HR once they saw that their lactate was only 1.0 after 1-2 hours in order to aim for a lactate of, say 1.8?
Excellent presentation, Dr. Seiler. I have a question- I believe many athletes and coaches are concerned with the boundaries of these zones and their precise and accurate measurements in order to incorporate them into training. You also talk about these tests at length in other videos. My question is, how sensitive is the aerobic capacity improvement to the %s within a particular zone? E.g. In this presentation, you assign Zone 1 upper limit to be about 80% of HR Max. Would there be a discernible difference (in terms of training benefits) if one is to train at 70% HRMax or 75% HRMax instead of 80%? Similarly, you assign 87% HRMax as the Zone 3 lower limit. How sensitive is the training benefit to this as opposed to 90% or 95%HRMax? I ask this because if Zone 1’s benefits are discernible even at 70% HRMax, then one would not have to worry too much about nailing the HRMax or other tests. I would appreciate if you could point me to some literature on this if it exists. Else, I request you to consider a study wherein you focus on Zone 1 alone and increase its resolution (training at 60-65-70-75- and 80% HRMax, for example). I believe this might be of great interest to the fitness community.
Thanks very much for all your posts, very helpful to those of us who aren't researchers... I do see that too long is when your heart rate starts to drift up, but it's not clear to me when too low is too low to get any training effect. Some (Maffetone) advocate a very easy (running) pace at max HR: 180 - age (which I understand is too variable, but just to give you some idea that this is very easy), Could you please clarify. Thanks!
Hi, some great informative videos to keep me entertained on my rollers. I have one question what do you recommend for cyclist to use for endurance ride HR or power? For example for me a relatively fit cyclist who races and trains 15 hours a week I find my zone 2 power zones put me in zone 1 HR zone when using my lactate threshold HR. So what should I use to get maximum benefit from my zone 2 rides power or heart rate but in mind my cardiac drift is minimal as I don’t often ride more than 3 hours in one go rather I do consistant training thought the week as I don’t often have time for 5 hour rides. thanks for your input in advance !
"maximum HR" how are you finding that, I have seen some it's 220 minus age but I have got mine to 200 bpm running, I can't sustain that for long, but if i can get it there at all does that mean my max HR is higher or that i'm doing a higher % like 110%
Probably a ramp test. The 220 minus age isn't accurate at all. I've seen 196 while not trying to go max HR and I'm 30 years old. I would stay away from max HR though, I never use it, ever. Finding it can be pretty dangerous and threshold is more useful anyway.
Ramp test with 1 min periods between upping speed/power, typically 1 kph on a treadmill or 25W on a bike ergometer. Max HR is the single maximum HR recorded. It's perfectly safe and the first & most fundamental test you want to be doing.
@StunpilootStef Doing a MaxHR test is extremely common and not dangerous at all. What is dangerous is constantly training in with mid/high intensity. This leads to over training and it's respective injuries. Doing a MaxHR test helps you find out where your thresholds are so you can more efficiently use polarized/low threshold training
Hi Stephen, I love your work. Sorry to comment on a random youtube tutorial, I have watched many of your videos and have loved undertaking polarised training. I just seek one answer. If we are to split our weekly activities into 80/20, lets say 10 hours a week for example. If I am doing a 1hr z3 (high intensity) session, but only 40 minutes of that workout are z3, would that account for 1hr, or 40minutes of the 80/20 split? Thank you in advance.
excellent video, thanks for sharing. Are you aware of XERT and their PP, MPA, TP model? MPA is basically what you would have left in your tank. But MPA only decay above TP; i feel this is not what I am experiencing when cycling long rides. In my experience, Performance does decay even when you ride below TP and you should not be able to hit the same high power output after a 3-4 hours ride. Any opinions?
Not saying this would be good training for serious athletes but for time crutched people with normal jobs, would a treadmill desk be good enough to reach into zone 2 to get some of the benefits while doing their desk job?
In the diagram of iZones you have 1 to 5 and 6+, based on a percentage of HR peak. It's not clear what HR peak is, clearly it can't be HR max as zone 6+ begins at HR peak, and HR max cannot by definition be exceeded. So what is HR peak?
Interesting video.. makes me wonder about the day after a hard ride, how my HR is significantly depressed.. but it doesn’t mean there isn’t high internal stress, I assume there’s moreso for a given HR.
Many thanks for your work, listened to the podcast on Velonews and got here as a result. Although one personal question haunts me. What if my V1 is as low as 51% of Vo2max (results from many lab tests) and at a mere 60%of hrmax - all tables here put the end of zone 1 at 70%of hrmax and 60% of vo2max. keeping all endurance work under my v1 means currently less than 180W (with a 350W ftp,176bpm at V2) which would be around 18h (for a 20h week) of riding at such ridiculously low intensity
Very interesting presentation! However, I have an interesting thing going on that just started happening over the last couple of months. Not only does my heart rate drift upward over time, but there are times my heart will fluctuate up to +/- 20 bpm in a matter of seconds. It seems to occur more frequently after an interval set, after any harder effort, or after higher drift has started. During the harder efforts, my heart beats fast, but regular. As soon as I back off the effort or drift starts and I maintain a consistent power, my heart will start this irregular pattern for as much as 5 minutes or until I increase the effort again or back off more. I feel the heart doing this, but I never feel the effects. Is this fluctuation range something to worry about? I saw my Cardiologist. He didn't worry about it, but asked me if I wanted to wear a monitor. I see him again in a couple of months. So, I wanted to wait and watch forst. I have a fan that adjusts based on heart rate and am curious if this could contribute to this? I try to pay attention to it, but I am not certain. As my heart rate increases, my fan blows harder at prescribed heart rate levels. As the fan blows harder, the skin cools faster. As a result, the heart rate slows because the cooling need is reduced. The fan then slows, leading to the skin warming back up. If I stay at the easier pace, my core cools enough that my heart rate no longer needs to respond to temperature change. Sorry for the lengthy post! However, this is a strange one for me.
hi there, nice presentation, question, at 18:43, col 11 you talk about the HRR % in the spreadsheet. In lap 1, given your HRR is 129, and your HR AVG on the line is 99, shouldn't the Avg %HRR 76,74% ? (99/129) - thanks for confirming
Hi David. To calc %HRR the formula is (HR - HR Rest) / HRR. So I’m this case you’d need to subtract the resting HR from 99 before dividing by 129. Hope that helps.
For Dr. Seiler or anyone else with a deeper understanding than me: how does cadence fit into the evaluation and monitoring of cardiac drift? I have tried erg mode holding varying cadences and can clearly drive different heart rates. If I hold constant zone 2 power, I can keep my heart rate flat by slowing down my cadence over time. Would you restrict cadence for long distance low intensity training to better tax the aerobic system? Am I slightly switching cardiovascular fitness to muscular fitness if I slow my cadence? For reference, I’m talking about starting in the 100rpm range, and going down to 75 or so over the course of an erg ride. I certainly wouldn’t be able to control these variables as sensitively outdoors
Hi Dr Seiler, thank you for this nice presentation. Maybe something I did not catch and you could comment about. You generally recommend to use LIT to avoid fatigue accumulation that could deserve the HIT session in a 80-20 approach. Here you present that LIT could lead to stressfull session and you observed it with a HR drift. Therefore this 80-20 model do you suggest to extend the duration of LIT above the point that lead to HR drift or do you suggest to stop above or just at this point. Thanks you in advance for your answer. Maxime from Belgium.
Just a quick thought and maybe it is said somewhere here or elsewhere. Is it good to train based on hrreserve on a day to day basis as resting hr changes ?
4 hours at 220W with an average HR of 120 (essentially doing nothing), really? What kind of watts are these, I want the same. I do agree though with the overall study, findings and conclusion. It is the slow stuff that makes you faster. Some people talk about mitochondria generation being sparked at these intensities, I don't know if it's true but many studies point to the same results.
Great video! Thanks for this and for sharing your research in general. When doing a longer session is it an option, if the heart rate starts going up (after, for instance, two hours into a four hour ride), to lower the watts until the heart rate stabilises again? Or is it already ‘too late’ when the heart rate starts drifting up? Thanks again.
Interesting is that Niels van der Poel build his areaobic capacity for bikini 5-6h at power 205-210 (later it was 235W).even you consider avarage 197W as a too low and waste time-but his must have been even lower as % max heart rate/reserve. But Niels did it over time few times so method works.
Old comment, but I seem to remember him saying in a TED Talk that it can be scaled down to any level. I don't know if this is supported by data, though, or just his personal opinion.
Dr Seiler, At what lactate level would you recommend LIT (4-8h weekly running) to be perforrmed? Your example of shooting at the barn blindfolded is exactly how I feel running at my MAF heartrate.
I maybe missed informations but is the cadence (rpm) was constant during the steady state tests you discribed ? I don't have that much hr drift (5%) by lowering the cadence on the last intervalls i.e. 4X1h@VT1 ~70%HRmax on the trainer with proper hydratation and food. My legs are tired but my heart, lungs...are good. My VT1 hear rate target is maybe to low ? And I should target higher than 70% ? Thanks a lot for your work ! Hi from France 🚴🚴🚴🚴
What was the fueling strategy during these 4hr sessions ? Surly if the fuelling strategy would affect the perceived effect ? This would affect the heart rate to drift upwards ?
Excellent content Stephen, thanks for sharing your knowledge. Have you any thoughts as to how you would perform if you slightly lowered your intensity during your 3-4 hour period to prevent cardio drift, and over time training would this result in less cardio drift, just my thoughts as I have been following my data and stats with my own training over time.
Influence from prior injuries/actual injury-state ? Many endurance athletes have some cronic problem, that they have just "learnt to live with" (i.e. achilles, hip, lower back...)
Great video as usual! Did your LT1 change between Dec/2018 and May/2019? I am assuming that your training status improved or maybe you had more carbohydrate available on the second session (maybe both)...
I think it has now gone up about 20 watts since then based on HR responses and feeling during long rides. Everything has shifted up 20 watts in terms of comfortable power versus duration. But I am not sure how much LT 1 had increased at that point.
Mark Cavendish was chucked off the UK Elite Performance programme because his ramp test numbers were too low. But historically even his recovery rides are over 2 hours in duration. So yes, the lab tests did not capture his ability to put out 1600 W on the Champs Elysees at the end of a 3 week race!
I am 62 y/o now. After 30years off the bike I started cycling again at 58y/o using high intensity interval training. Had great results in the first two years but then no improvements just bouts of nonfunctional over-reaching and then repeated burn out. At 61 I was going to quit but by chance I came across the POLARIZED method of training and it saved my cycling life! Great results this year, steady improvements with no significant overreaching episodes. I am able to hold a relatively high fitness level (CTL) and continue to improve. Thank you Dr. Seiler!
Super Strada that is really wonderful to read! Thank you very much for sharing and continued good training!
Hi! I am a big fan of your training philosophie, I am 52 years old, in my younger years i raced elite/amateur road races, then i had a break for 10 years with no cycling. since 5 years I train regulary on the road bike.
CP2: 7,1W, CP5: 6,1W, CP10: 5,20W, CP20 5,10W and in a TT event for 59min 4,7W(353W)
since one year I train polarized. this gave me an extra boost! in my age of 52, i think this is a perfect training system. with sweetspot and ftp workouts I quickly reached a plateau. Now polarized 90/10 and 15-20h per week. 2 times a week HIT sessions, always after restday/recoveryday 😅
My cardiac drift on the long rides (3-5h) is max 4% when I stay under 200W avg and HR 120, if I am only 20 W over that threshold the drift goes at 8%or more and I need a longer recovery. If I stay under 200W, the next day my legs are fresh. best regards! JT
Good to know, thx for sharing. How do you keep your CP at your 5,1W? You do HIT workout but don't you train at your FTP? Where's you place the principle of specificity in this? Cheers
I've heard your podcast with Velonews (Coach Connor & Co.) and found them insightful but this visual presentation is excellent. Thank you for sharing your vast knowledge.
Love listening to you wherever it is. I started duathlon 1 year ago and was fortunate to reading about your method through the books and listening to you in the fast talk podcast since the beginnings. I've made huge improvements along this year and feel as fresh as a daisy even though I'm training big volume.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
When i'm training LIT now, I have learned to go out with hidden HR and hidden power. My only mission: don't go out too hard, feel my legs and aim for whatever pace I feel i could literally hold all day.
This discussion should not be carried out without careful control of recovery status and nutrition. For me personally, I know that my power/HR and RPE correlation depends rather heavily on my nutritional effectiveness. If i'm under-fed, or glycogen depleted, I feel that my "go all day by feel pace" turns out to have a average HR at 70% of HRmax. but on the other hand, If i fuel well prior to ride, and I take 60g-70g of sugar every hour, my "go all day by feel pace" ends up at average HR of 75%-79% of HR max and my power is naturally considerably higher.
So basically i think that with low intensity endurance training, we should just let our feelings be our guide and accept that our physiological readiness will have a great deal of influence on what specifically we can do for performance on a given day. And i really like to study the graphs like you describe: after my ride as a means to evaluate how my ride by feel pace was or if i was going to hit a wall. it's a powerful feedback mechanism right?
I know I'm late to the party. However, your conclusion especially makes sense considering that when your body is not properly fuelled up, your practically achievable HRmax for that day is quite a bit lower than you theoretical HRmax on a good day. So your feel during a specific training actually tells you the same % of your HRmax for that day every time cause your achievable HRmax fluctuates.
Dear Dr Seiler,
Thank you so much
for an outstanding content.
Also, your speech pattern
and sound quality
make the valuable teaching
easier to absorb.
Thank you for your work.
I subscribed 💚👍
Thank you for the video, Its pleasure to learn the way you present information so calmly. 31-year old amateur cyclist from 6 year ago.
Thanks for you presentation. Its nice job, triathlon and endurance sports is the meca to researchs, tips and practice is the key for evolution in this sports. Thanks Dr Seiler. Venezuelan coachTriathlon in Argentina
If I were Dr Seiler, I’d end all my UA-cam videos with, “and thank you for coming to my Ted Talk”
@@ThatWasPrettyFunny thanks for the demo.
Why
??? Not sure what you mean
@@brendanpotash4441it means this presentation is very well thought out and presented… just like a TED talk
Stephe, You are great! You can synthesize complicated things in a simple way. You're perfect. Thanks again.
There are some great insights here Stephen: I am really looking forward to the publication of complete results in due course! Your presentation here inspires the following questions:
INTENSITY/DURATION
I hear you that there’s no general answer to the question “how low is too low”, and the training prescription should be a function of the individual’s physical characteristics and typical session duration. But how high is too high? Logically, the upper bound is LT1, but this is only helpful if we actually know the athlete’s LT1. Even then, should we train as close as possible to LT1, or should we leave a 10-20W margin for error and work on increasing the duration?
I personally did the tests at 60% of est. 60 min FTP. I could have chosen 70% and still (I believe) be below my LT1: would this result in more adaptation, or simply more fatigue?
ONSET OF CARDIAC DRIFT?
In the preliminary data presented in the video, nobody seems to get past 2h30 steady riding on a turbo without experiencing HR drift, and for most the drift starts at 2h. This concurs with my own experience. Considering “well-trained” cyclists, is this 2h-2h30 “threshold” for the onset of cardiac drift a general rule, or just an artefact of this group? What do you see in pro cyclists? Could it be delayed out to 3h, 4h or even more in the best-trained ultra-distance cyclists? If the onset of cardiac drift can be extended by appropriate training, then the point at which it starts might be a useful indicator, or even a training objective for some.
CARDIAC DRIFT AS A FIELD TEST TO DETERMINE LT1?
Would repeated 2h rides on the turbo at increasing steady power levels give a good field indicator for LT1 as being the power at which cardiac drift becomes significant during a 2h ride? For example, if a 2h ride at 190W returned no cardiac drift, but a ride performed under the same conditions at 200W returned significant drift, would this indicate reliably that LT1 was somewhere between 190 and 200W? What would be “significant drift” in this context?
Finally, a big thank you: this work is of huge value to those of us interested by endurance performance.
Marvin
You probably dont care but does anybody know of a way to get back into an instagram account..?
I was stupid lost the password. I would love any assistance you can give me!
@Grayson Beckett i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site through google and I'm trying it out now.
Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will reply here later with my results.
@Grayson Beckett It worked and I finally got access to my account again. Im so happy!
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@Makai Zev No problem :D
@@makaizev6147 Indeed, we don't care. Get lost, scammer.
Awesome video sir, I liked the final thesis you made about lit being your platform for the high intensity. Will most definitely watch more videos and hopefully it will help me as an athlete. Thank you!
Excellent lecture on low intensity training. Thank you. Your last statement regarding the trainability of the drift and it’s impact on high intensity efforts is one that I’m anxious to hear more about. This is where the “rubber meets the road” for the aspiring racer. Will definitely subscribe to get the rest of the training story.
Some really, really motivated subjects to be able to do 5h SS indoor rides!
I did a 6h session today, the last hour required additional motivation (race videos), the last half hour required loud music and was really though to finish!
I’m so grateful for have this information from an expert! Thanks doc!
@ 32:00 . . . I doubt anyone actually meant to suggest that 220 minus age would be a max HR that we are talking about. I'm 70 years old (rounding) and 150 is right between my first and second ESTIMATED thresholds. Decades ago I heard it quoted as 220 minus your age was the *max SUSTAINABLE* heart rate which is about right. I can sustain exercise at 150 bpm for quit some time but not a full 2hrs.
Thanks for this - very practical presentation - I now know what I need to do to test my drift and work out the right intensity/time. Thanks!
Brilliant presentation. just what i needed to see as i start my triathlon training and what endurance training zones i need to do. Thank you!
criminally undersubscribed.
If sticking to constant heart rate is there any benefit training past cardiac drift ,ie running slower for same intensity or is this a sign the training session is finished
Thank you Stephen! It makes me really helpful those videos to overcome this quarantine
For people who want to dispense with the need for a max hr and 6-min power, you can simply compare beats above resting hr to power. This only removes a couple of constants and the respective trends are the same. A ratio gives you Watts per reserve heartbeat.
So, as take-home advice, would you recommend increasing the overall duration of the longest easy session (long run/ride) or rather increase all the easy sessions proportionally?
Hi Stephen!
Thanks for taking the time to post this explanation. I think the point Daniel Hernandez makes below is an interesting one, and something I've seen reflected in my recent endurance rides. Basically, after a café stop with a bit of cake and some coffee, I see my heart rate rise and stay elevated. Each time that's happened however, the opportunity to fuel and have some coffee actually reduced perceived effort, even making a slightly harder output feel easier. In the end, I don't really feel I can do a 3+ hour ride without fueling at some point, which surely makes it more difficult to ascertain how much drift is actually corresponding to physiological cost from exercise and how much is due to digestion and/or stimulant intake.
Absolutely amazing stuff
Stephen, I particularly liked this edition since it showed not only the HRR, which is a concept I thought of as being missing in the normal literature, it completely makes sense; but also the ration %HRR/%INEX_S which seems a real nice measure as it really quantifies hear rate drift.
@ 37:27 - I wonder how you have controlled for diet in these experiments, if for example, an athlete is fat adapted (in ketosis), would they see as much of the Internal/External deviation that you describe, or is this more directly tied to glucose levels? According to Dr. Maffetone, one of the reasons we train the aerobic system is to improve the body's capacity to use fat as a fuel source, particularly for exercise in the lower heart rate training zones. If the diet does not support that, however, and is instead focused on carbohydrates as the main fuel source, this energy reserve is not as easily available, and the glycogen reserves being finite, the athlete has a limited window for peak performance. Could that deviation be due primarily to the glycogen reserves becoming depleted?
You have been very inspirational.
Would spread your thoughts and knowledge and principles to my following in Singapore
drift became super apparent to me the other day. running high noon full exposure sun in the desert. really easy pace half marathon.. looked down at my watch at mile 11 and I was at Max HR! I couldn't believe it. It didn't 'feel' like it per se, but the heat caused the drift. normally at that pace id be running at about 70% Max HR. really amazed me.
The heat caused dehydration, which is the same thing that happens when riding inside with insufficient cooling. I have noticed this on long indoor sessions at 180-200w, HR goes up 10-20 beats after long enough time, and if I weigh myself after the session, sure enough I have sweated out 1-2 kilos, dehydrated means thicker blood I guess, and more beats needed to transport the oxygen.
@9:50 . . . 2.25 hrs is my shortest sessions and it's usually 2.5 to 5 hrs at low intensity and the only part of my body that does not feel good afterwards is my feet. I might get exhausted if it's hot and sunny because by 5 hrs it's noon and the sun is pretty intense some days. If I do an 8-10 hour hike my HR drifts up quite a bit but I usually don't feel it the next day unless I have a really big hill (3-4 thousand foot climb). This sounds like good fitness but just about anyone that's not overweight and has minimal conditioning can do this and I'm 69 years old
I am probably just thick, but where is it summarised re “how low is too low”? How easy can my easy runs be before they’re no longer effective? I caught the summary at the end too but still left me puzzled as to how to work it out, would have been great if some stock examples were prepared.
I have a max HR of 199.
My resting HR is on average; 58.
This gives me a HRR of 141.
My usual zone 2 runs are 60-75 minutes at 70-78% of Max HR.
How low is too low? How do I work that out?
If I am out with a friend who is slower and my average HR is now 120 or 60% of my max, how long do I need to run for to not make it a waste of time? Or is it never a waste of time at 60% of Max? When is a waste of time? 50% of max?
Maybe my heart is just a weirdo... but I'm experiencing (by measuring) reverse cardiac drift every time I get out on a Z2 (5 zones model) endurance ride!
46YO / 180cm / 70Kgs Cyclist here, data freak, Powermeter always in check.
Endurance ride I chose roads that allow me to keep pedaling at a given constant intensity for hours without leaving behind nearly any pedal stroke (no fast descents, no significant traffic intersections), I just keep pedaling.
It happens that after an initial 20-30 minutes warm up in Z1, I start with Z2 (example 175W for me is mid Z2) and my HR reaches a certain value after a few minutes (example 152 bpm, HR Z2,9) and it stays there for the first hour approximately. Then after 1h / 1,5h it starts dropping and it keeps going down the longer I go. In short after 4 or 5 hours of same Z2 power I can end up cycling with a HR value of 142 - 144 (HR Z2,3 - 2,4).
Am I an alien? Or my powermeter is to be trashed?
Stephen, any experience with such cardiac behavior within your researches?
Thanks for sharing all this good stuff with us!
really interesting, I've only just started getting more interested in endurance (having competed in and coached Olympic lifting in the past). I've noticed some people in cycling making claims about this ability to repeat efforts near their maximum power output without losing performance. In order to express high power it takes skill (optimised motor patterns and neural pathways specific to the activity), the ability to recruit high threshold motor units all at the same time, and probably also override Golgi tendon organ inhibition. In weightlifting, an advanced athlete can do a very short and intense session which requires lots of recovery and they run much higher risks of injury. Whereas, a beginner doing the same rep range (e.g. 3 sets of 3 at 90% of their maximum), might feel like they haven't done anything. In some cases, a great ability to perform repeated efforts close to maximum, maybe more of an indicator that the athlete has not learned to express high forces in a short time window or "empty the tank". I know its a bit of a pessimistic view but I'd be interested in your thoughts. Also, I don't see why cyclists dont incorporate proper modern training methods for increasing explosive strength (not talking about track riders obviously). I cant see why improving your neuromuscular efficiency is incompatible with aerobic adaptations.
I think actually a decent number of pro tour riders do incorporate weightlifting into their routine, at least in the off season (I'm assuming that's what you mean by modern training methods for increasing explosive strength!).however i;m aware that some may cut down or completely eliminate weightlifting during the season due to the heavy workload from training and racing
Ben Hardie yeah building strength in the off season seems like a good idea as the training effect will last a long time. I’ve seen one pro talking about lifting weights but his exercise selection and rep range didn’t sound too great for getting more explosive. It could be that he’s not very strong or good at lifting yet so a more simple general type of training is still giving him good results though
@@bobbyatopk yea, I think all cyclists can benefit from weight training even if it's not quite the right kind. the advantages seem obvious and significant haha. i suspect that some cyclists are concerned about maintaining a low race weight, to help with climbing performance, and they may be concerned that weight training will pack on too much muscle and be detrimental. which I don't think would happen unless you are also eating a tremendous amount of food, but I'm no expert haha
There is a difference between those riders who are able to empty the tank in 1 all out effort and those who can do repeated (for them) all out efforts. They are two extremely different disciplines. Ask your person who can do empty the tank weight lift efforts to do 100 reps at 50% of that weight...
I used to do track sprinting and now I've switched to more endurance based training - I can't quite dial in that intensity in an all out effort like I used to (and therefore achieve the same acceleration or speeds). You just can't do both at the same time. Having said that, having experienced the "emptying the tank" still helps me in recovering from efforts quickly and putting it all on the line in the final sprint. I can go there but there's not as much in the well. Hope that makes sense..
Great vídeo!!! Very thankful front Venezuela 👏👏👏
At 20:20 the chart shows dissoziation between power and hr after 2hrs and the claim is that lactate goes up as well. I am not sure. Couldn't it be that carb stores deplete and a higher fat metabolism rate takes place which needs more oxygen and thus HR goes up. A lactate measure could clarify that.
Even if the athlete went from 100% carbs to 100% fats, that would increase vo2 by ~6,7%. I think this phenomenon might explain some of the drift in power vs. Hr, but definitely not all of it. There are other mechanisms in play aswell.
I am a 70 year old cyclist. I do polo rides training and perform my low intensity rides at 60% to 65% of my heart rate reserve. (Rhr 48, max hr 178, hr reserve 130, 60 to 65% 126-133). I only use heart rate since I do not have a power meter. Through the season my speed increases overall and I find that after 2 to 2 1/2 hours of my typical ride my speed decline as I focus on maintaining my target heart rate. First am I calculating my target hr correctly, secondly do you think I should increase my duration throughout the season or accept the increased speed as suitable overload.
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing these insights. Looking forward to EnDuRA! :)
Did body core temperature increase during the long indoor tests?
Very interesting presentation, I have thrown out HIIT structure training this year. Changed it for zone 2 endurance training 80% and Zwift racing 20% effort all out. Since January I have moved my ftp from 261 to 327. My high limit for zone 2 as moved from 195 watts to 246 without cardiac drift over 1h50. But never done 2h on the trainer while on steady state. You mentioned in your video how to solve IN/EX_S. My 6 mins power is 378, max HR 193, rest HR is 58. I have been trying to solve this value for myself and I’m missing something. Right now I’m tracking aerobic decoupling in Golden Cheetah. Once it steadies below 2% on my new FTP results, I retest every three weeks or so and get better results. I have noticed that my power output as decreased in the 30 seconds to 3 mins range while increasing in the 5 mins to 90 mins range. It flattened my power profile a bit. But for me it’s ok because I ride for pleasure, but I like to move at a good pace too!
Salut Renaud, do you have a guide on how to use Golden Cheetah ? I like the HRPW chart but it seems like I'm missing on the main functionalities. Let me know. thanks
@@lereveure Salut David :) I don't have a specific guide on Golden Cheetah, I picked up lots of information from GC's wiki for different definitions and read up "Training and racing with a power meter" from Allen and Coggan. Besides the all out efforts twice a week, I'm really constant on efforts and the zwift course that I do for Zone2, so I get the same information to analyse. The two main values I keep an eye on are Areobic Decoupling % and efficiency factor. Once Aerobic decoupling stabalizes around 2% and I see increases of the efficiency factor, I know I'm up for a FTP test. Usually around 2-3 weeks, I'll do a test tempo run at the start of zone 3 to confirm that decoupling does not occur and efficiency factor goes up. In other word, I'm attempting to see if I'll get a cardiac drift. This is why, I found this presentation good, If I can find my IN/EX_S and input in GC, I think I would be able to fine tune my training and efforts. Another metric that I use in GC is Wbal to keep an eye on the potential energy I have to finish off a climb in real life, there's a function in Garmin that you can input Wbal and it will show to your garmin screen.
Another really helpful piece in appreciating how to structure, undertake, measure and understand effective training methods and their impact. This and other pieces from you helpfully challenge the 'received wisdom' contained in some long-standing yet often less-than-impactful (and sometimes harmful) training ideas and methods. Heart rate reserve was a particularly helpful reference for me and something I'd come across in Keith Livingstone's book, 'Healthy Intelligent Training', an excellent review of the great Arthur Lydiard's training methodology for runners. Thanks again for publishing these videos.
What a super "video". I´m very focused on my cadio-drift and find it very interesting
Love your training approach, made me a much better athlete in a rather short time!
Do you recommend low-intensity for the long runs >30 k 4-6 weeks before a Marathon or change to tempo runs instead training the race pace? (or both?)?
Wonderful, thanks!
Regarding cardiac drift, at a given intensity or power output (for low intensity) should drift be ignored or should effort be reduced to cause HR to drop back to the zone 1 max HR percentage? I ask because surely reducing effort to counteract drift would seem to reduce the work load and therefore the training effect that causes adaptation.
Training effects can come without serious stress. You can train the parasympathetic system by keeping things low intensity with huge potential for your high intensity systems, without ever training it directly. Now if want a shorter stress effect at the end of your long runs, you can choose some kind of reasonable time to let things drift. I think what Dr. Seiler is saying that choose a dose of stress that is appropriate. I typically run a couple miles to a few miles past my point of drift on some long runs. I think it's fine to also stop when you start to see the drift. It might depend on what type of stress you think you can take based on your current training load. But you can still get a lot of benefit without stress incurred by going past your aerobic threshold.
its worth taking a look at Remmert Weilinga s strava. he has most of the climbing koms around monaco and is in his mid 40s! he seams to ride moslty in zone 1 or 2 but puts in a threshold, ie kom effort, every single ride. from 5 mins to an hour at threshold every single ride.
Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge! That's exactly the questions I asked myself often but know I have an idea of what tools I can use and what data to look at to asses what's the appropriate intensity / duration for my low intensity training. Thanks!
40+ yrs training. i find target heart range THR and hydration levels HL are the keys to intensity and duration. Look forward to listening to what you say, just dont have time today
with increasing mileage, THR rises and HL decline more slowly. after 75,000+ miles running, can say it works for me. improving plan for me is 1/4 mile distance increase every 5 days. with cross training (weights/calisthenics) increasing weekly too. current plan is just to see how far i can take it. hehe
i dont believe in running >14mi/day anymore in training as HL cannot be maintained but 2X per day pretty sure i can get well beyond 14/day. Diet composition also very much in my mind every day too. for me, i believe very high hydration and shorter workouts more efficient for faster progress and faster recovery. good luck!
Hey Dr. Seiler, what are you thoughts on cross training during low intensity sessions, particularly for us injury prone runners. I enjoy cycling but not racing on bikes and my true passion is running, but I am super injury prone when I do too much mileage.
Do you think I can closely mimic high volume training with lots of cycling during recovery days (like 2+ hours) and then two running workouts a week?
Super A Mazing, ...there is also an interesting point around the first hour when doing easy workouts well below 50%, the RPE simply drops lower in a moment (from experience)
What is RPE?
Humans have either walked , jogged and sprinted . So the human body must be designed for all 3 of the movements , and ofcourse walking , humans would spend at least 90 percent walking . So our ancestors were probably masters of polarised training 🤔 so I would say your approach to training is spot on
It may be that very fit and elite athletes train optimally at lower relative intensities ( relative to max HR, VO2 max, or thresholds) but higher absolute intensities (pace or power). Sedentary people seem to respond faster to higher relative intensities and obviously lower absolute intensities.
Some really interesting stuff here. When considering factors that determine IN/EX_S time of onset and magnitude, loss of ions (notably Na, K, Mg) through perspiration could also play a role.
How does the Ingebrigtsen brothers style of training fit into polarized training methods? Do their threshold workouts count as borderline zone 4 training?
They do double threshold days and do 3 session days/hard days a week so i doubt they are doing 80/20
It would be interesting to see blood lactate levels in the same graph though, for example the guy at 22:14 was riding for 5 hours just below lt1 but heart rate keeps climbing. Would you also be able to see a similar incline in lactate levels?
Question: Fantastic info. HRR seems to give a lot of valuable info . But to calibrate this for runners, what would we use in place of %6minute power? The Apple Watch does provide power data now, and I’m going to assume their power data is close, and if it isn’t, it looks to be at least consistent with HR, effort etc. Is there anything else a runner can use for calibration ? (I don’t want to get the foot pod). Or some other metric besides %6min power?
Great video! Keep it up with good work :D
There are some clues to these questions in the Schantz 1983 paper with cross country skiing 30 hours per week at low intensity and the Dudley 1982 study with rats running on treadmills. I think the Dudley paper has an error in calculating relative intensities, and rats' red fast twitch fibers surprisingly have more cytochrome c than slow-twitch unlike humans, but the graphs are very thought-provoking and educational despite not distinguishing between mitochondria volume and function. It does appear that optimal training for capillary development is complicated, and there's very little research on how to increase stroke volume.
Bring back the MAPP!
I founded a good part of my (club level) bike racing career on info from there!
I wish I have found your work earlier. I mean not some month earlier, earlier in life. I stopped running 11 years ago. Training was like all out for 1 hour, 6-7 days a week. Idiotic. I tried running at lower heart rate some times, it seems not to be possible. 170 felt just fine untill it did not :-). So I am 51 now. LT1 ist 154, HRmax193. I can run, row and bike well below LT1/VT1 for 1-2 hours. I sleep well and recovery is done less than 24 hours after training. VO2max goes up, times get better on the same HR. I do not think I will win anything in the future but I like the training and I feel good in general.
My question is: Did these athletes start training at a higher HR once they saw that their lactate was only 1.0 after 1-2 hours in order to aim for a lactate of, say 1.8?
Excellent presentation, Dr. Seiler. I have a question- I believe many athletes and coaches are concerned with the boundaries of these zones and their precise and accurate measurements in order to incorporate them into training. You also talk about these tests at length in other videos. My question is, how sensitive is the aerobic capacity improvement to the %s within a particular zone? E.g. In this presentation, you assign Zone 1 upper limit to be about 80% of HR Max. Would there be a discernible difference (in terms of training benefits) if one is to train at 70% HRMax or 75% HRMax instead of 80%? Similarly, you assign 87% HRMax as the Zone 3 lower limit. How sensitive is the training benefit to this as opposed to 90% or 95%HRMax? I ask this because if Zone 1’s benefits are discernible even at 70% HRMax, then one would not have to worry too much about nailing the HRMax or other tests. I would appreciate if you could point me to some literature on this if it exists. Else, I request you to consider a study wherein you focus on Zone 1 alone and increase its resolution (training at 60-65-70-75- and 80% HRMax, for example). I believe this might be of great interest to the fitness community.
Thanks very much for all your posts, very helpful to those of us who aren't researchers... I do see that too long is when your heart rate starts to drift up, but it's not clear to me when too low is too low to get any training effect. Some (Maffetone) advocate a very easy (running) pace at max HR: 180 - age (which I understand is too variable, but just to give you some idea that this is very easy), Could you please clarify. Thanks!
Pleasurable as always. So to Extend LIT we need to Pass the Steep curve point. Isnt it?
What about training for ultra endurance events like the tour divide?
Hi, some great informative videos to keep me entertained on my rollers. I have one question what do you recommend for cyclist to use for endurance ride HR or power? For example for me a relatively fit cyclist who races and trains 15 hours a week I find my zone 2 power zones put me in zone 1 HR zone when using my lactate threshold HR. So what should I use to get maximum benefit from my zone 2 rides power or heart rate but in mind my cardiac drift is minimal as I don’t often ride more than 3 hours in one go rather I do consistant training thought the week as I don’t often have time for 5 hour rides. thanks for your input in advance !
"maximum HR" how are you finding that, I have seen some it's 220 minus age but I have got mine to 200 bpm running, I can't sustain that for long, but if i can get it there at all does that mean my max HR is higher or that i'm doing a higher % like 110%
Probably a ramp test. The 220 minus age isn't accurate at all. I've seen 196 while not trying to go max HR and I'm 30 years old. I would stay away from max HR though, I never use it, ever. Finding it can be pretty dangerous and threshold is more useful anyway.
Ramp test with 1 min periods between upping speed/power, typically 1 kph on a treadmill or 25W on a bike ergometer. Max HR is the single maximum HR recorded.
It's perfectly safe and the first & most fundamental test you want to be doing.
@@dan_grey Except that it isn't and everybody uses threshold instead. You don't know what you're talking about.
@StunpilootStef Doing a MaxHR test is extremely common and not dangerous at all. What is dangerous is constantly training in with mid/high intensity. This leads to over training and it's respective injuries. Doing a MaxHR test helps you find out where your thresholds are so you can more efficiently use polarized/low threshold training
Great content, thank you! How do you measure HR Rest?
Measure your pulse in the morning, lying down, in bed after waking up. Best to use a heart rate chest strap and measure for a few minutes.
Hi Stephen, I love your work. Sorry to comment on a random youtube tutorial, I have watched many of your videos and have loved undertaking polarised training. I just seek one answer. If we are to split our weekly activities into 80/20, lets say 10 hours a week for example. If I am doing a 1hr z3 (high intensity) session, but only 40 minutes of that workout are z3, would that account for 1hr, or 40minutes of the 80/20 split? Thank you in advance.
excellent video, thanks for sharing. Are you aware of XERT and their PP, MPA, TP model? MPA is basically what you would have left in your tank. But MPA only decay above TP; i feel this is not what I am experiencing when cycling long rides. In my experience, Performance does decay even when you ride below TP and you should not be able to hit the same high power output after a 3-4 hours ride. Any opinions?
Your correct; have a look at Ida Clarke's recent papers
Not saying this would be good training for serious athletes but for time crutched people with normal jobs, would a treadmill desk be good enough to reach into zone 2 to get some of the benefits while doing their desk job?
How does does blood lactate levels and mitochondrial function improvement fit in to this ? Thanks !
In the diagram of iZones you have 1 to 5 and 6+, based on a percentage of HR peak. It's not clear what HR peak is, clearly it can't be HR max as zone 6+ begins at HR peak, and HR max cannot by definition be exceeded. So what is HR peak?
Interesting video.. makes me wonder about the day after a hard ride, how my HR is significantly depressed.. but it doesn’t mean there isn’t high internal stress, I assume there’s moreso for a given HR.
Many thanks for your work, listened to the podcast on Velonews and got here as a result. Although one personal question haunts me. What if my V1 is as low as 51% of Vo2max (results from many lab tests) and at a mere 60%of hrmax - all tables here put the end of zone 1 at 70%of hrmax and 60% of vo2max. keeping all endurance work under my v1 means currently less than 180W (with a 350W ftp,176bpm at V2) which would be around 18h (for a 20h week) of riding at such ridiculously low intensity
Great video, but how do you quantify de drift? Do you use the variation of the in/ex stress? How do you know when the stress is green, orange and red?
how do you incorporate trail riding with variable heart rate into training please?
I must say, this is awesome
Very interesting presentation! However, I have an interesting thing going on that just started happening over the last couple of months.
Not only does my heart rate drift upward over time, but there are times my heart will fluctuate up to +/- 20 bpm in a matter of seconds. It seems to occur more frequently after an interval set, after any harder effort, or after higher drift has started. During the harder efforts, my heart beats fast, but regular. As soon as I back off the effort or drift starts and I maintain a consistent power, my heart will start this irregular pattern for as much as 5 minutes or until I increase the effort again or back off more. I feel the heart doing this, but I never feel the effects. Is this fluctuation range something to worry about? I saw my Cardiologist. He didn't worry about it, but asked me if I wanted to wear a monitor. I see him again in a couple of months. So, I wanted to wait and watch forst. I have a fan that adjusts based on heart rate and am curious if this could contribute to this? I try to pay attention to it, but I am not certain. As my heart rate increases, my fan blows harder at prescribed heart rate levels. As the fan blows harder, the skin cools faster. As a result, the heart rate slows because the cooling need is reduced. The fan then slows, leading to the skin warming back up. If I stay at the easier pace, my core cools enough that my heart rate no longer needs to respond to temperature change.
Sorry for the lengthy post! However, this is a strange one for me.
is endura now public? Thx for the video really interesting.
hi there, nice presentation, question, at 18:43, col 11 you talk about the HRR % in the spreadsheet. In lap 1, given your HRR is 129, and your HR AVG on the line is 99, shouldn't the Avg %HRR 76,74% ? (99/129) - thanks for confirming
Hi David. To calc %HRR the formula is (HR - HR Rest) / HRR. So I’m this case you’d need to subtract the resting HR from 99 before dividing by 129. Hope that helps.
For Dr. Seiler or anyone else with a deeper understanding than me: how does cadence fit into the evaluation and monitoring of cardiac drift? I have tried erg mode holding varying cadences and can clearly drive different heart rates. If I hold constant zone 2 power, I can keep my heart rate flat by slowing down my cadence over time. Would you restrict cadence for long distance low intensity training to better tax the aerobic system? Am I slightly switching cardiovascular fitness to muscular fitness if I slow my cadence? For reference, I’m talking about starting in the 100rpm range, and going down to 75 or so over the course of an erg ride. I certainly wouldn’t be able to control these variables as sensitively outdoors
Hi Dr Seiler, thank you for this nice presentation. Maybe something I did not catch and you could comment about. You generally recommend to use LIT to avoid fatigue accumulation that could deserve the HIT session in a 80-20 approach. Here you present that LIT could lead to stressfull session and you observed it with a HR drift. Therefore this 80-20 model do you suggest to extend the duration of LIT above the point that lead to HR drift or do you suggest to stop above or just at this point. Thanks you in advance for your answer. Maxime from Belgium.
Just a quick thought and maybe it is said somewhere here or elsewhere. Is it good to train based on hrreserve on a day to day basis as resting hr changes ?
My wife said Borg banned anyone using his name for exertion levels, is that correct?
4 hours at 220W with an average HR of 120 (essentially doing nothing), really? What kind of watts are these, I want the same.
I do agree though with the overall study, findings and conclusion. It is the slow stuff that makes you faster. Some people talk about mitochondria generation being sparked at these intensities, I don't know if it's true but many studies point to the same results.
Good point!
Great video! Thanks for this and for sharing your research in general. When doing a longer session is it an option, if the heart rate starts going up (after, for instance, two hours into a four hour ride), to lower the watts until the heart rate stabilises again? Or is it already ‘too late’ when the heart rate starts drifting up? Thanks again.
Interesting is that Niels van der Poel build his areaobic capacity for bikini 5-6h at power 205-210 (later it was 235W).even you consider avarage 197W as a too low and waste time-but his must have been even lower as % max heart rate/reserve. But Niels did it over time few times so method works.
how to calculate %HRR?
What is the least amount of hours per week do you need to put in the saddle for the 80/20 model to be effective?
Old comment, but I seem to remember him saying in a TED Talk that it can be scaled down to any level. I don't know if this is supported by data, though, or just his personal opinion.
Dr Seiler, At what lactate level would you recommend LIT (4-8h weekly running) to be perforrmed? Your example of shooting at the barn blindfolded is exactly how I feel running at my MAF heartrate.
I maybe missed informations but is the cadence (rpm) was constant during the steady state tests you discribed ? I don't have that much hr drift (5%) by lowering the cadence on the last intervalls i.e. 4X1h@VT1 ~70%HRmax on the trainer with proper hydratation and food. My legs are tired but my heart, lungs...are good. My VT1 hear rate target is maybe to low ? And I should target higher than 70% ? Thanks a lot for your work ! Hi from France 🚴🚴🚴🚴
Thanks for sharing very informative
That's very helpful. But sadly for me that means I won't be able to make significant progress because my overall training time is limited.
What was the fueling strategy during these 4hr sessions ? Surly if the fuelling strategy would affect the perceived effect ? This would affect the heart rate to drift upwards ?
Excellent content Stephen, thanks for sharing your knowledge. Have you any thoughts as to how you would perform if you slightly lowered your intensity during your 3-4 hour period to prevent cardio drift, and over time training would this result in less cardio drift, just my thoughts as I have been following my data and stats with my own training over time.
Hey one question,
why is the BLA (mol/l) at 13km/h lower than 12 and 11 km/h?
Influence from prior injuries/actual injury-state ?
Many endurance athletes have some cronic problem, that they have just "learnt to live with" (i.e. achilles, hip, lower back...)
Great video as usual! Did your LT1 change between Dec/2018 and May/2019? I am assuming that your training status improved or maybe you had more carbohydrate available on the second session (maybe both)...
I think it has now gone up about 20 watts since then based on HR responses and feeling during long rides. Everything has shifted up 20 watts in terms of comfortable power versus duration. But I am not sure how much LT 1 had increased at that point.