J. Krishnamurti - Ojai 1982 - Discussion with Scientists 2 - Psychological suffering
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- Опубліковано 25 чер 2024
- J. Krishnamurti - Ojai 1982 - Discussion with Scientists 2 - Psychological suffering
Summary:
What is security?
I have an image about myself. I am a great cook, a great scientist, a great carpenter, whatever you will. I have got that picture in myself and you come along and put a pin into it. And that gets hurt, the image gets hurt. The image is me.
What is a human being?
You are not basically different from me. You may be tall, you may be born in England, I may be born in Africa, I have dark skin, but deep down, the river, the content of the river is the water. The river is not an Asiatic river or European river, it is a river.
Love is not English, American or Indian. Agony is not yours or mine, it is agony. But we identify ourselves with agony - it is my agony, which is not yours. Why do we want to identify with something?
Is there a learning about oneself which is not constant accumulation about myself?
---
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Perfect subtitles
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😂😅😋😂😂
@@KFoundation can i be a volunteer ?
@@VivekSingh-ih3zg Assuming you would like to translate into Indian languages, you should contact the Indian foundation at info@kfionline.org, as they manage subtitles in Indian languages.
Hi, how can I volunteer?
This platform has completely help me changed my mind and life.
Gone are the days ...when wise men debated with their hearts filled with honesty ... !! But all I see now are bunch of actors ... !!
@@GoogleUser-qx5db and you the same lol
true sir.
Wisdom is such a limited subject, there is no need to debate,
These type of people are still out there. We are really seeing the control ansd degeneracy of education systems and media.
This is why we are more stupid than ever
Think about this... why do we still quote the ancient books and people shouldn't we be wiser than them if you don't understand this u are doomed.
This conversations are simply timeless. It's amazing how, 40 years later, the buzz and the noise has changed infinitely, due to technology, and social media, etc. but the relevance of the topics discussed here are as relevant as they were then as well as 2,500 years ago. Discovering JK has given me a shift in awareness that I can't hardly express in words, a truly enightened being, even when he totally dismissed and belittled the idea of enlightenment...
What is amazing is also, that the discussion is very deep on many different levels, and it seems to be aiming towards resolving depression of the masses. I could be wrong.
Krishnamurti never dismissed or belittled the state of enlightenment..........He actually addressed this many times.......Basically the gist is "If the you is asking, you aren't" and that "Having the self wanting to know how close to enlightenment one is,is wrong" He taught pure being without the me
@@stefos6431 if you have not you can try vipassana, it is really the practical practice which j krishnamurti taught.
Well said!
A young Sheldrake in discussion with Krishnamurti. Without question a priceless treasure out of time.
For sure.....just a treasure!!!
Absolutely agreed.
Controlled by ideology and programmed since birth. .this is not only through who we are as humans but a wilful and knowing intent by those who wish to constrain and oppress humanity in perpetuity
; a missing variable in their analysis which is becoming more apparent today.
*In the very moment Jiddu begins to speak, this conversation raises its level until unknown places!!*
I feel fortunate to come across this content.
J Krishnamurti is a genius. He explained the basics of all problems very clearly. Scientists also have to learn a lot from him
Krishnamurti knows this all along that identity is the source of pain... but he doesnt want to hurt the ego of the other 3,.. so he gently build ups his question according to the other 3 point of view.. the gentle way always the most efficient..
As Gandhi said....in a gentle way you cam shake the world
Its not an ego thing, he just wants them to see it for THEMSELVES cuz he knows that what they are isnt different from him, so who is hurting whom? Think about it.
But it seams like he believed in an utopia that can never really happen. If I stop identifying as a French and we just open the borders to anybody because we are all the same we will be destroyed within a year. Same think in an individual level, if I stop identifying and I have no self, another person will absolutely destroy and abuse my innocence. And it seems like he thaught things he didnt act himself because I am very sure he identified with his own beliefs, his own theories. At the end of the day as human beings we are imperfect, and we are identifying, comparing, categorizing and selfish creatures, our brains have evolved to do so. His way of viewing the world may have worked for him maybe (and I dont believe it) but it will never work for all humans. He said for eg identification causes war, but we need to, its not an option, we need to identify to something, if not we become nihilistic. And I am also sure he has not really investigated religious ideas and their necessity to the world, rather he just saw religious people do bad things in the name of religion and made a conclusion from it.
(Sorry for my bad english)
Hmm, I doubt that the other 3 didn't already know Krishnamurti's views before they sat together.
Of course I also noticed that Krishnamurti knew al along where he wanted to steer the conversation, but I felt that because of this he was rather rigid in his arguing, whereas the other 3 were more agile and adaptable and open. I felt Sheldrake raised some interesting objections, which Krishnamurti didn't address convincingly.
Zarathustra P
Thank you for your conscious mind and seeing farther than others.
You're perfectly right.
JK initiates debates but his conclusions are so unrealistic as if he really didn't observe life as a whole. Or at least didn't understand the nature and the consequences of how everything goes. Mr. Sheldrake pointed it out not once how deluded J Krishnamurti was.
But still without JK that meeting wouldn't perhaps happen.
I mean, I am literary laughing and smiling with them like we are spending time together (yes, as images we are) to grow..🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽 Respect.
It's interesting how different people viewed this discussion. I felt all 4 participants were completely genuine and egoless within their scope of understanding of things. I felt such respect and openness coming from all four.
Of course Krishnamurti raised all the million dollar questions which are not only beyond valuable but which no else I know of is taking the time to ask and explore. I wish they would have gone on for hours. I learned a great deal and it's truly amazing what happens when you check ego at the door!
Exactly the same thought.
For certain Carla
carlafa3 all of them are gentlemen
carlafa3
What did you learn?
Right
These guys got deep. Without weed.
Poppy Stils One can only go deep without such shitty things.
going deeply brings about a natural high and its effects on the brain are much deeper. the state of the mind to question and explore and think deeply are connected to the same receptors.
Lol....
Plot twist:They are on acid.
@championchap we can actually but for which deep did you laugh ?
AC-GW reading notes
@13:00 - I love the questions.
@20:33 - “What am I"
@25:00 - Interesting interrogation.
@28:15 - 28:47 ... wow!
@30:20 - 31:26 begins to articulate in a way I appreciate, enjoy
@31:26 - 32:25 💯
@33:00 - ff.❗️❕❗️The question‼️
@34:15 - Song of Becoming
@40:35 - 41:45 THIS
@43:20 - “I don’t know...”
@43:42 - “You may be telling the truth.”
@48:49 - “is it possible to have, without identification, responsibility?”
@53:20 - utilitarian-transactional model of security
@56:55 - recuperate
Thank you !
❤❤
untipdubios - I’m glad to know the annotation is useful! Cheers!
I heavily appreciate you for doing this. Be blessed
They are amazingly open minded. I read my first Krishnamurti book in late summer 1999. This is even beyond what we now can expect from a discussion. And back then there was a period when such discussions flourished.
I love this old man...he is absolute genius..
He is enlightened soul
He is great enlightened person and philosopher called jiddu krishnamurthy
No such thing as an enlightened person, persons are a mental construct of the brain. Liberation is the loss of something that was never really happening. What is-is what is speaking through that body, cant be comprehended.
I would have love to be in his presence
@@ravii8 no such thing as an enlightened person, persons are a mental construct created by the brain, persons are not needed for the brain and body to function, theres no real person, illusory...
Wow.. Mr. sheldrake is also here.👍 So he was lucky enough to a met a genius like jiddu.
I didn't see anyone discuss so openly, egolessly. Its really heartening
@@angelmafia5969 how ?? Can you tell me ?
@@angelmafia5969 i see a lot of ego in the guy with glasses and the young brit. in krishnamurti and the physicist im not sure, probably way less
@@angelmafia5969 oh, look, the ego sees the ego
@@jonesbest9386 can you see that ego can see only ego in another, so they are literally discussing the same problem seeing smb with images and thus comparing.How ironic!;)
People have egos it just is. I am sure Krishnamurti has also a huge ego.
To you, whoever directs this channel! 👏Thank you 🙏 for everything you are doing! And have done for me! 🌱
You have helped me so much more than you think!❤️
you go around the world, everyone experiences the same, but what makes it unique and different for them is how they perceive the material world outside their bodies and how they form memories and images about the experience by thinking. If you hang on to these memories and images made by your thoughts, you are unique and feel separated from everyone else, but if you see them just as experiences of "your consciousness" / "your point of view" you can feel unity compassion and so on and not act from your experience, instead you can be in the moment and have full attention of whats going on.
They all wanted to hear what the other have to say about the topic, with patience and compassion, that's what makes this talk so fantastic.❤❤
Discussion at 35:36 was a life changer... Helps one introspect... I never thought UA-cam can help me spiritually...
What did you meant by spritually? What is spirituality for yu?
Imagine if politicians could be like this!
Really ..the world be more wonderful
Maybe one day?
Truly intelligent and moral ppl don't have the desire to become politicians. The people that would make the best and wisest leaders are not interested in politics. It is a great irony.
Jnana yogi politics huh
40 years later and I still can't even begin to imagine...
I have huge regards for Mr.Krishnamurty...wish we had more teachers like him
I just cried like a baby watching Jiddu...likened to a loss of a beloved one. Love just emanates for this great beautiful man.
Arun Paul be brave
Very true Sir
I love how Jiddu is just teaching all these geniuses😄🤍
I deeply appreciate that these talks are all ad free...thank you so much for this.
All four gentlmen are so clear with what they seek and are open to each others view point and acceptance. Ego less.
I am highly attracted to the geniusness of Rupert Sheldrake but K is out of this world if i could exactly understand him..
But it seams like he believed in an utopia that can never really happen. If I stop identifying as a French and we just open the borders to anybody because we are all the same we will be destroyed within a year. Same think in an individual level, if I stop identifying and I have no self, another person will absolutely destroy and abuse my innocence. And it seams like he taught think he didnt act himself because I am very sure he identified with his own beliefs, his own theories. At the en d of the day as human beings we are imperfect, and we are identifying, comparing, categorizing and selfish creatures, our brains have evolved to do so. His way of viewing the world may have worked for him maybe (and I dont believe it) but it will never work for all humans. He said for eg identification causes war, but we need to, its not an option, we need to identify to something, if not we become nihilistic. And I am also sure he has not really investigated religious ideas and their necessity to the world, rather he just saw religious people do bad things in the name of religion and made a conclusion from it.
(Sorry for my bad english)
@@zarathustrap2562 well he himself said, uthopia is not possible, he was just there to free individuals
@@s.muller8688 thats your ego speaking
I am not saying we can understand everything but if you watch enough of his talks you begin to understand a lot.. but you have to actively listen not just wait for the answer
I am amazed to see the patience each one has while listening to the another... which is very rare. 😇
It's amazing to listen to this around 50' (and on) on the illusion of security (that comes from divisions rather than collective responsibility) now in 2020 at this moment of coronavirus.
Terry that was one of my central take-aways, the illusion of any conceivable form of security, - the kind of reflection these gentlemen engage in, and which J.K. mastered - is terribly difficult. We know this in obvious ways like when forced to concentrate in school but the truth is even more insidious than that. Again and again they seemed to arrive at a word for which most people assume an understanding - and then like Socrates, JK goes deeper and inquires but what is 'identity','security','freedom' etc. What he demonstrates to me above all is how lazy I am in my conclusions, beginning with 'Why do people suffer?' 'Oh because there are assholes' WRONG!!!!
Another great discussion. I wonder why there aren't more views as this topic is relevant even today. My favorite part @ 6:20 on...; "How does the biological fact of illness, death, instinctual drive result in a psychological problem/disorder?"... Answer "By thinking about it"... Excellent!
William C McIntee bcs it makes people insecure!
Because it contradicts with what jk proposing. Which is escaping from problem is not the solution but rather we try to vision the problem "stuck in a rut" example which they have discussed.
Sorry violent example which they have discussed
The constructs placed by humans have brought us this far and question the reality we are living. This video is a perfect example of deep dive thinking of those construct.
The receptiveness from the panel made this discussion more intriguing. Humans listen and engage when they question the core of our consciousness - It's a deep sense of compassion one can achieve with other. It puts a gracious smile on face to watch it through.
The Last Line " i am responsible human being for What Is Happening In The World".
2 Episode Have Shaken My Perception System And Made Me Think And Realize Me The Meaning Of Humanity . Thank You 🙂
I am a responsible human being.♥️
i came across J. Krishnamurti today 5/7/22 🙏
Imagine if we could do these types of dialogues and explorations together in America today.
Sylvester McNutt III It can happen even today but there should be at least one pure realized mind! If not, that would be a vague discussion just based on thoughts because of no actual direct experience of the truth first hand!!
@@swamiabhedananda4147 well said Sir.
The days when liberals were liberal.
今日は😊素晴らしいお話をもっと聞きたいのですが翻訳がないと言葉がわかりません😊もっと翻訳いりを公開してほしいです
David Bohm, a legend Not only in physics.
no one enters into dialogues or discussions in this manner anymore. the world is caught up in hows and success too much to care about their mind changing for the purpose of creating a new world, yet, the fact that communication is key shows that it is so necessary.
Certainly not on mainsteam tv. One has to seek out such dissusions on you tube or the more remote areas of the Internet.
All the beating around the bush for 13 minutes and then JK goes "What is security" ... straight to the point
😁💯👍🙏
This is Golden
This is the deepest point I have reached on UA-cam. WOW!!!
What is depth ? Let's go into it deeply.
Sincerely though, I agree. If there was ever such a thing as depth, Mr K would be completely in there 🧠🤝💓
Un grand merci pour ces fabuleuses discussions enregistrées, que je découvre avec un très grand intérêt. Les sous titres français 🇫🇷 sont une opportunité très appréciable, Merci 🙏
Very important question @ 43:59: Is there a learning about myself that is not constant accumulation about myself?
read his book " The awakening of Intelligence"
accumulation of information is not knowing " Knowing the absolute truth"
information gives us the knowledge that we use to survive ourselves.
@@thakurboys5962 just ordered on amazon:)
Dear Krishnaji,
Ohh what a wonderful human!
In this discussion he started talking after 12 minutes! Wonderful sense and attention of listening 🙏!
I must admit, I clicked like before watching it... How can it be? Any K's appearance is a blessing.
i just love this discussion.. what a gem ♥️ it feels so good to reflect on those words
Incredible patience demonstrated here! I love this conversation!!! We have lost this artform over the years.
What an amazing discussion. We need many of such gatherings in present society.
When you're born to die there is no security. Live love and be free of your fear of death. That is all laughter and rebirth. The flesh is the shelf. The shell of self. So, one can't be scared to learn over and look. & that is kool!
This is what i am mediating and i understand him.i feel lucky to comment because he is enlightend and he is real human being we all have reptilian brain moulded by parents and money, some people find him hard to understand but i bow down the god within that man and other gurus as well. Dont rush people please take your time i am artist and you space yourself from world become nothing to produce best art possible. Budha said be nothing amd whole universe is yours.
Thanks you im glad i contributed to this i hope i helped your confusion.
i hate to sound rude but thats not what this is intended to be. if there was true understanding from him then you would see how ur dependent upon ur image of the god and gurus,the scriptures of the buddha, and all of the sages and gurus across the millennia. discard their luggage and the conditioning that has been put upon man since the beginning of humanity. as long as there are beliefs and dogmas and conditioning still, there will never be security, nor will there be freedom
Looks like they are playing chess with words.
yes
Sounds like? lol
@@lungarotta a teacher never stops teaching.
I wish I could talk to him ((( love him wonderful man
This is how a sincere discussion sounds like.All the participants allow the others to 'breathe' and clearly express themselves without the fear of being disapproved...the words come out like uncut diamonds and it seems that there is actually no mind control supervising them.You can feel the fire building up as the discussion escalates and moves into deeper levels of analysis until a certain pause occurs where the silence unveils its dominent presence and reveals the raw truth.J Krisnamurti besides his other faculties is a master-enchanter and his impact in every discussion is phenomenal.
Brilliant..give me goosebumps to listen to this..i feel liberated..thanks u tube
J.K the eye opener ❤
This is so powerful and essential, everyone in world must see this conversation, this can change the world for good
Sending light and love
Once you realize you are not an image the unconcious understanding becomes conscious and the pain that is the unconcious understanding telling you you are not an image which clashes with your conscious misunderstanding that you are an image which makes you try to prove you are an image constantly(new or the same) fades away
so damn good. everytime i thought they were gonna get Jiddu he comes back with some Jedi mind tricks and turns the tables
No, he is away from the entit called mind hence they can never get him as the words flow from deep consciousness
All these differences and speaking perfect English, like true gentleman.
People need teaching this again.
this series is so freakn interesting! much love to everyone involved into sharing this:)
Maravilloso debate con el Gran Sabio Jiddu Krishnamurti! Me encanta ver los videos de este Gran Profeta de la Sabiduría como los es Krishnamurti, siempre invita a reflexionar y descubrir nuevas respuestas en cada una de sus preguntas. Saludos desde Argentina
the fact that this content is accessible to anyone who seeks It's just amazing, why me here,so many years later and so far away from the event, I'm capable to find this important and relevant it's just magical. Truly makes me think that technological development is but a consequence of relating individuals. Time is just the happening of that drive of energy.
May we be blessed now, yesterday and ever where life is there to witness. ❤
This been uploaded 8 years ago... and when I was wondering on finding my path... I couldn't find it.
Now I just stumbled upon it randomly...
This is outrageous.
This should be recommended to anyone's using words such as personal growth, psychology, self-development etc..
What an amazing conversation
Real Real Genius. So Nice.... We can learn lots of deeper and inner Knowledge.
love this series ... so interesting discussion to bring out the essence of life and living...
I'm at 18:30 right now, and K is answering the psychologist/psychotherapist's question, "What get's hurt?" when we feel insulted or hurt by what someone says to us. I'm laughing because K simply says, "The image I have about myself," and he explains that the "insulter" has stuck a pin into that image.
The reason I laugh is I'm thinking of myself, and how when I've been hurt psychologically, it's precisely for that reason! I have this image of myself as a "fair minded individual." And that image has gotten a lot of "insults" from some people, and one especially in particular.
Anyway, I love that. To go beyond that vulnerability -- not to be callous or cruel -- but to not "take it personally" whatsoever, and to see where the "insulter" is coming from -- without any effort . . . Man, that would be perfect!
No ego, nobody can get hurt
@@whollylife And if nobody gets hurt, nobody has to forgive anyone :)
@@whollylife saying it is a different thing. implementing it is way too far fetched.
The Ego creates the fragmentation of the Unity.
@@thakurboys5962 that's where meditations like Vipassana comes into play. An exercise, (not just an intellectual theory), that makes us practice every day on how to be maintain equanimity in spite of pain and pleasure. It's an exercise.
I believe we experience suffering because we attach emotions with the illusory avatar or image that we have of ‘ourselves’ in our heads. When this image or avatar of ourselves (the ego) is insulted by someone for example, someone insulting us (not really us but our ego) we experience real emotions of suffering and pain attached with the offended image or avatar in our minds...
However, i believe what the scientist failed to see, was that we are more than the physical body, our individual personality, even the avatars or characters and images we have created of ourselves because we are spirit....we aren’t human beings having a spiritual experience but spiritual beings having a human experience...once we realise that everything we have ever associated with ourself - name, physical attributes, job title, mental avatars, images etc - aren’t us and we are in fact formless consciousness we will no longer experience suffering or pain because these emotions that are physically experienced are wrongfully associated with someone that isn’t us, the ego...
When we realise we are bottled consciousness, we will break through and smash the flesh vessel of our bodies and merge with the limitless, formless, pure eternal source or light and become fully conscious. Here we will never be offended because we have risen above ego
👌
Beautiful 👌
Great explanation 💃
Does this formless consciousness ever exist as long as there is ego? Speaking as someone who has an ego, this formless consciousness has 0 reality, as I have no memory of it whatsoever and it may never have taken place. I have had moments where the ego is absent, like getting absorbed by great anger, having a mental breakdown, or getting immersed in some beautiful landscape, or dreamless sleep ofc, there is no ego present then. But none of these are formless consciousness, so how can I say that I am truly formless consciousness?
Beautiful❤ thank you for sharing!
This is so deep... interesting to knw... nd also very helpful...thankyou for uploading this💕
51:17 the way he actually left him blinking speechless is actually hilarious
Najveci mistik I filozof svih Vremena Krisnamurti...koji je uistinu shvatio Bogs ...Istinu...Mislim da je dosegao najvecu svjesnost covjeka...Mnogo Sam dogradila svoj intelekt zahvaljujuci ovom divnom znanom...gos....hvala
Summary of this whole discussion is : We, in this game of life, are always trying to win and therefore losing. So first, keeping the desire to win amd fear to lose aside, understand the rules of the game. And then play it with full vigour and understanding!
Very very good discussion...thought provoking...
We must rethink our institutions like this too
worthwhile and briliant
oh god......I'm in tears rn...this is a gem!!!!!!!! "so worshipping of a nation deep down is tribalism"......just wow.....his thoughts are liberating...
Wow! Way ahead of his time! Amazing.
Fantastic conversation
I love how Krishnamurti is many levels deeper than the three psychologists
only one is a psychologist
J. K. You have no idea how complicated things become after you left... your are lucky
Its more than inteligense , more than wisdom, and this kind of talks will never be caught in time factor. I always feel they are in lack of words to express the facts. And that make me to listen this discussion again and again.
Krishnamunti is basically trying to say: Empty your mind, do not hold onto any preconceptions and live fully in the moment, be open to all possibilities
And that everything arises from the self, if there is no self then there is nothing. And with nothing, comes peace and tranquility. The images you hold onto your head are just images. Not real. And when you associate your whole entire being with those images and/or preconceptions, ideas etc. then you will ultimately suffer. Remove the source of suffering, that which is the self. And you will be free.
BRILLIANT 🙏🏽✨
It is very exciting and unbelievable to get into such consciousness. J Krishnamurti shows the way. Though there is a fear wether it is practical.
Great evryone great talks.
**NOTES TO SELF**
Who am I?
Various images. Most important and most visible image is one I created for myself.
My image is the greatest. This is comparison. This leads to agony.
How to remove thoughts of comparison?
Observe thoughts. Always be aware of body and thoughts.
Practice mindfulness.
[Doing this constantly is extremely difficult and tiring process.]
The root cause of comparison is yearning for security. But we need security and for that we have to consider ourselves belonging to a group (isolate).
Where do we draw the line for isolation?
【stay flexible for drawing the line as required by the need for security.】
Man you nailed that
Can you practice it? Or does mindfulness become an idea, a method, do it every day, become something better by means of that method? Always be alert, self-centered activity has an unfathomable ability to disguise itself as meditation.
6 minutes into it..and JK- But sir have you answered his question? Attentiveness 101
u have a good eye for detail
Thank you 🙏🏻 💕
Krishnamurti's dialogue is connected with nature and his explanation is so serious.
Molto interessante.
Grazie.
I don't understand why someone disliked this video.
Lets find out. But, sir, if I may ask, how deep do you want to go? :)
Ego protection?
Thanks for the effort 🙏🏼🙏🏼
Great job by the team ...! How did u even preserve the videos ... hats off for such a valuable work 👏
K. Had incredible questions. Explain real deal. Deep deep human realities
We're all unique, therefore we're all the same 🙌
It is very exciting and unbelievable to get into such consciousness. J Krishnamurti shows the way. Though there is dear wether it is practical.
Conversing with three conditioned mind and an original mind is amazing. I can see the big difference. One is direct specific and the three are theorizing their conditioned mind. I learned from one not from the three.
this is a great interview, even the moments of silince to process the information and then go from there, a group toughtproces as it finest I guess...
This conversation made me sweat but I was able to follow it to the end. An achievement that has no value to the system, only to me.
You my friend - you must have done what Gurdjeiff called 'the work'. Most people watch these videos and imagine we get it. Like JK always insisted the realization of this truth will take an immense amount of attention and clarity. Frankly I wish his methods were less Socratic and opaque - he seems to say to every instrument you reach for - "not it!" and part of me is wondering 'just show me which it is then!' - of course I suspect the answer is 'its everything' - I'm just not sure how the rest of my body 'knows' this
Very interesting!!! I understand each perspective!!! In my opinion one can learn to come to a conclusion that each different scenario is it’s own and will have it’s own separate reality and outcome which shouldn’t be decided that it will have the same outcome each time unless they are experiencing a specific scenario that continued to play out over and over and over with basically the same or similar outcome. Then the person should think about what security means to them and alter their perspective so that they understand what they do want instead of getting what they don’t want.