The best CRT for RGB? Meet the NEC MultiSync 3D!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 28 тра 2024
- Could this $20 swap meet find be the most versatile desktop CRT for RGB computers and game consoles?
Patreon: / retrobits
Channel Membership: ua-cam.com/users/retrobitstvjoin
Shop: www.amazon.com/shop/retrobits
Twitter: / retrobitstv
Peak Atlas ESR+ Capacitor Tester - amzn.to/3DZkz9A
Hakko FX888D Digital Soldering Station - amzn.to/2TYYrbI
Hakko FR301 Desoldering Tool - amzn.to/3cP8VR3
Hakko-CHP-170 Micro Cutter - amzn.to/3mT3btH
Hakko 633 Soldering Iron Holder - amzn.to/3xiTJpj
Kester Leaded Solder - amzn.to/3IIJz7s
Weller SM1 Solder Dispenser - amzn.to/3lFVXtC
Thanks to our awesome Patrons and Channel Members for their support!!!
Peter (Melair)
Kevin Gonzalez
Jon Ingersoll
John DiLiberto
John Trammell
Paraffine
Eric Stacey
Pinay Collectibles - / pinaycollectibles
Josh K
Mitch Hoffman
Vince Valenti
Geek With Social Skills - / @geekwithsocialskills
hertz_donut
Justin D. Morgan - / @jdmcsjmp 0x0000
William Sullivan
Ryan Brooks
James Taylor
FULLSET
Jim Leonard
[mi.low]
ALVIN L BRADFORD
Oddhs
Mark A Andrews
Allister Fiend
Erik (goodjonx)
Pierre Kressmann
Rayner Daniel Pedersen
Wolfgang Behrens
Thomas Jager
Stefan
Jamie Copeland
Leslie Marentette
00:00 Introduction and History
01:36 Specifications
02:30 First Look
04:43 Cleaning
05:37 Vertical Collapse
07:40 Disassembly
11:55 Troubleshooting Vertical Circuit
16:21 Reassembly Montage
16:51 New Problems
17:19 Full Recap
19:09 New Problems Redux
19:25 Self Inflicted Issues
20:15 Do Adjust the Horizontal
20:58 Geometry and Color
21:47 X68000 Compatibility
24:16 MiSTer FPGA Compatibility
25:10 Other Systems
26:29 Sony PVM Comparison
29:23 Conclusion
*Retro Bits earns money from Amazon and eBay Partner Links - Наука та технологія
![Alive and Kick[start]ing: eBay Amiga 1000 Revived?](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ML8LGzlJ38o/mqdefault.jpg)
![Alive and Kick[start]ing: eBay Amiga 1000 Revived?](/img/tr.png)
Was going to leave rude comment that the monitor still looked filthy even after you cleaned it, but investigated further and discovered filth was actually attached to the front of my own own screen. Yours sincerely, UA-cam Commenter.
I had a NEC Multisync 3D, and I used to complain about a fuzzy picture. The technician finally suggested I get my eyes tested. That solved the problem.
As a "don't recap unless it needs it" guy, I fully support your decision to replace them all.
It is so strange nostalgia. This was my monitor during my youth/early adulthood. And when you rotated it I remembered how it felt to carry it. I actually have a picture of myself sleeping in front of mine at a demoscene party.
I had one circa 1992. It died an ignominious death de to flyback failure. I miss it still
Now you have an excellent monitor for many many years +100 EXP, +100 Funny Jokes about safety repairing CRTs. Great video.
It cannot be understated just how iconic this monitor was. It was the crowning jewel in any home computer set up. Rarely seen. Very expensive. Absolutely awesome. I had a part time job selling computers in high school and the NEC multi sync 3D was the top of the line upgrade add on from the standard amber or paper white monochrome monitors.
So rare to see someone shell out the additional cost for it. But when they did, wowie what a treat to see in real life.
I owned the Mulitsync 3D in 1989 used with my Amiga 500. Best monitor I ever owned, always on the lookout for one. Thanks for reminding me about what a great monitor it was and filling me with envy!
Such an awesome find. And I’m really glad you took the targeted approach first but then brought up the very real time-suck issue of actually testing & reassembly.
Great job on getting it running again!
This is a cool monitor, and I’m glad you were able to find one.!
Thanks, me too. Funny how sometimes things just work out :)
I had one back in the late 90s. It started fading over time and I think I gave it away with my Amiga 1200 (Long story)
Print the 3d panel in semi-translucent smoke acrylic type color-- that would make it look period accurate (ish) :)
That's not a bad idea. Although with all the vendors out there that sell filament (like Printed Solid who sell the filaments that almost match Commodore machines), there's gotta be something that's close enough to the monitor color.
Surprisingly, I did find a model for the door on thingiverse but didn't get around to printing it yet - the episode already went on long enough without it. I will have to look for a suitable color filament.
Yup, thank the heavens for the magic of UA-cam editing, because watching 13 combined hours of capacitors being replaced one at a time would absolutely kill me due to my short attention span 😅
Haha yea, I thought I'd spare people the disassembly and recapping this time and just get on with the plot :)
Apart from absurdly expensive professional monitors, Multisync was something like the king of monitors. I think the brand still exists although it means little nowadays.
Yea it seems like they've slapped the MultiSync label on every model since forever now :/
Brand still exists, and if they have a VGA in it's still actually a multisync display as opposed to other brands' multisync branding. I've used a modern HD NEC screen from 2010-ish for years for my PC88 and PC98 (which basically run on nothing but screens that can handle weird signals, 24Khz and all that).
So the brand's still great if you import Japanese computers and need a display and don't want to buy or use an upscaler.
Commodore rolled out the 1950 but it was not a terribly reliable monitor.
I still remember recapping old Commodore 1084S 15khz RGB Amiga monitor back in summer of 2016. It was hell, but, in the end it worked.
Haha, same here! The first monitor I ever tried to repair was a 1084S and all I had was an old $15 radio shack soldering iron. That was fun :)
Nice job on the monitor. It really is a peach. And whatever extra time you put into it can be credited to future-proofing.
Odds are, I'll never own this monitor. But I'm a huge proponent of hardware and software preservation. Really enjoyed this video and seeing all the formats supported by this NEC.
Worked great with Productivity mode on my ECS Amiga 500
That's the monitor I got with the first computer I bought in 1989.
Good work, it definitely was a desired monitor back then! It’s incredible how much these games look better on a good CRT.
I remember when these were new... they were serious money vs regular fixed scan monitors! (or at least they were to a teenager like me)
Yeah I remember staring longingly at them in the shops😅
I have a Microvitec M1438s, also a multifrequency monitor, though not nearly as adjustable as the Multisync I, II or 3D but man its my go to monitor these days. Perfect when paired with a MisTer.
Congratulations. You are a very patient person. ❤
Easily my favourite monitor. Great for PC88 and PC98 stuff. If you use Japanese machines regularly, getting a NEC multisync (even relatively modern HD OLED ones) is obvious option as NEC still supports 24Khz; if it has an VGA in. I suspect to keep backwards compatibility with their own equipment from the 80's till the late 90's, or it being grandfathered into their VGA signal handing.
And if I recall correctly they're the first to market their monitors as multisync and still mean it. Most modern manufacturers seem to have transitioned their multisync branding as just that, branding.
This seems like an actual *nightmare* to repair. Hats off to you.
thanks for video. I love it! I come across one but it is not known to be working so.. I guess I have to give up LOL! but it is nice to see what is capable of. I always heard of good things about NEC multiSync monitor. I wish I have tech to fix it :(
This video gives me hope! I have a slightly older version of this monitor, the Multisync 2A, and I shelved it after it showed vertical collapse a few years back. Time to get it back out and see what I can do!
Absolutely worth saving and I'm glad you held on to it. Good luck fixing it!
Just a note on the 2A, that one doesn't go down to the lower resolutions - but the regular 2 does. Sucks!!!
Great job Matt. Awesome find, especially for that price. I wonder why these MultiSync monitors are so hard to find. I bet they costed a fortune back in the day.
That's probably a big part of it for sure. Lower sales volume and the fact many of them probably stopped working 10 or 15 years ago and got e-wasted :(
Well done Matt, great challenge and success
I love that he put capacitors at the bottom of the list but started with them well it does have 90s Japanese caps and they're usually totally fine or leaky as hell
I had one of those! Worked perfectly with my A1200. It was awesome while it lasted. I tossed it around 2003. I probably could have fixed it.
Ah that's a bummer :( From all the posts I've found about these things online, it seems that many of them began to fail 10-20 years ago. I'm guessing a large percentage of them ended up as e-waste because of it. If we only knew then what we know now...
Lucky! Even though it took a lot of work to get it properly running. $20 is definitely worth the effort. As an X68000 owner myself, it will be a challenge to connect it to a CRT. I don't have any digital RGB sources, so that's one less thing I have to worry about for now. I do have an XPC-4, though, so I can at least use the machine, but I would love to see the output as one is supposed to on CRT.
Ah yea the XPC-4 is a fair chunk of change these days! I was able to get a good result with a borrowed OSSC but it took some dialing in of the advanced settings. Honestly since these MultiSyncs are so hard to find and worn out, using an upscaler with a much newer/larger SVGA CRT would probably be preferable anyway.
@@retrobitstv Ah, that's interesting. I wonder how that would look, since the scan lines wouldn't be exactly right. You'd be getting scan lines for the output resolution of the scalar, as opposed to the actual resolution. Could be interesting to see a comparison, as tri sync monitors are extremely rare in general, and there is the wear on the tube to consider as well, like you said.
Good job & great video, as usual I should add! I always swap old caps with 105°C ≥5000h Panasonic parts too, such as the FR series. I also like to step up the voltage a notch, to have some more oxide to start with and be on the safe side. Being of newer manufacturing, in most cases they end up being not bigger (or even smaller) in size anyway. Some jobs older than 15 years now, I never had to repeat the process and sure hope they will outlast me, since I'm now 45 )))
I tried to buy Panasonic or Nichicon 105C parts from Digikey where I could. There were only a few oddball values I had to get from Rubycon. That's a good tip on stepping up the voltage, thanks! I bet modern caps have lower ESR than their 1990's equivalent too so shouldn't be an issue.
I picked up one of these used around 1995 for use with Amigas and did use it for a while -- probably hasn't been powered on since the late 90s and now you have me concerned about caps. 😬 Been kept indoors all this time though, so keeping fingers crossed.
@21:30..try a bulk disc eraser to remove the minor burn in
tried it years ago and it helped a lot on some bad burn in
made it very light, almost as light as the line in your screen
just wave the magnets close to the screen
it may be worth a try
Thanks for the tip!
Got to love those leaky caps...
Once in a while I wish the problem were something else just to keep things interesting, y'know? :P
I blew out one of these in the early days of Linux X Windows when you could set scan rates that your monitor could never do. I also put another one at risk when I finally learned how to set a proper scan rate and my 386 DX 40 with 8 meg or ram had a OLVWM GUI as good as a Sun IPX workstation. Ah, 1024 X 768 in the early 1990's. Fun times.
Haha yea always something I worry about when firing up a random MiSTer core on a 15khz-only monitor without checking what resolution it's going to try and spit out first. Fortunately replacement horizontal output transistors are still available :)
I love watching all your content Matt, particularly the x68000 which was the real treat for me!
Now I have a video to rival it!!
I’m so happy you managed to get this baby working as it has a tremendous range of function.
I’m lucky enough to own a microvetec 20H948FS2A (can’t find any info or manual online) but it appears to be a 20” version that is quad sync (bad term I know) same as yours.
It works but tbh has a small horizontal line issue where the picture at the right of the screen is very slightly compressed.
Hard to notice but I don’t dare try to open this monitor up to diagnose or fix this.
I notice the colour could do with a tweak too!
It’s a shame these models didn’t come with an engineer mode to alter the finer aspects of the picture, I always loved the Sony trinitrons for that aswell as some of the Barco & Mitsubishi computer monitor ranges.
Oh well, enjoy that beautiful monitor and thanks so much for your great, great content!👌👍
Glad you enjoyed it! Cool, I didn't know about the microvetec, sounds even more rare :) I definitely need to calibrate the color after comparing the image to the PVM but it's not something I've done before. I guess I need to find a reference card or something.
It is a great monitor, had one at one time in early 90s I believe.
Wow, haven't seen a ad for JDR micro devices in 30 years.
Another good video...great to see this particular hardware covered.
Glad you were successful with this repair! I know how nerve racking it can be when you're deep into a repair and it looks like it might not work out. But that feeling when you finally get it working is worth the headache!
You nailed it. I was really in a funk for two days when everything had gone off the rails but was on cloud 9 when it started working!
Nice find and nice work you did on this monitor. It brings me joy to see such an old gem restored and back in service. It seems like you could do some fine adjustments on the geometry though, but just seeing it back to work and handling all the wacky signals the MiSTer and the X68000 throws at it is amazing. I'm rather curious to see how it handles those arcade cores with even weirder frame rates, like MoonPatrol and Qbert.
28:35 I can't play Doom on my VGA CRT with my MiSTer because instead of a pixel-doubled, line-doubled 320x200@70Hz a 31.47kHz hsync normal VGA card would output, it outputs 320x200@60Hz with a 13.47kHz hsync (or at least that's what the OSD tells me, I still have to check with an osciloscope). In fact, I can't even get proper 720x400 text mode because, again, it outputs a weird 26.95kHz hsync, 60Hz vsync weird signal that my monitor absolutely does not like.
Looks like MiSTer's ao486 core doesn't like 70Hz video output. I spent a quite a few hours reading forum threads and trying a bunch of different settings to try to get ao486 play with my old computer monitor, but I just couldn't get it without having to enable the internal scaler and dealing with an horrible mess of barely readable text.
Really impressive Matt!
Pick up some anti-static alignment tools for adjusting potentiometers
I'm glad you got it running, good work! I've certainly been guilty of bumping a pot when sliding a board back in, that section at the front right was my nemesis when trying to reinsert the board.
I also just got mine (early 1990) reassembled this weekend and running on my Pioneer Mac clone - seems great but a little washed out, so I'll have to twiddle some pots. I'm in the midst of constructing an RGBI adapter to run my PC-6001mkII and PC-6601SR on it. I haven't considered using it on the X68000 yet; my X68000 PRO is running on a Dell P2314Ht LCD which seems to do very well but I haven't tried Marble Madness yet.
I counted 87 caps replaced on mine (did everything except the big primary cap on the PSU) and did two Digi-Key orders (forgot the bipolar cap on the neckboard.) All of the Rubycon SSP caps were open on mine, including the ones on the Mitsubishi RGB amplifier on the neckboard, which created a crazy green interference pattern that looked like the Northern Lights.
The hood on my "VGA" connector was also very loose, I had to take the screws out and reassemble it with a dot of Loctite. Not sure what happened.
Nice, congrats on getting it up and running! I forgot to order the one NP cap as well, and there was one other on the main PCB that was so small it didn't have the specs printed on it nor was it listed in the service manual :(
@@retrobitstv I'll have a full (observed) cap list when I publish the article in the New Year (queue is finally getting long, hooray) but I don't remember any unmarked main board caps other than the tantalum near the EEPROM. Yours is a year newer than mine though. I made some adapter pcbs because I didn't want to do any wiring of adapter cables, but I'm waiting on them to get here from China.
@@leadedsolder I noticed the cap list in the service manual was far from complete. As in, it only had coverage for 50% of the electrolytics. The manual is for JC-1404HMA and my model has a -1 at the end but I can't imagine it's that different. I put all the caps I swapped into a spreadsheet: C165 was the one that was too small for me to read and C905 was the 4.7uF/35v NP that I didn't order. Including those, there are 86 in total. Maybe I missed one somewhere?
I just got one of these monitors. Untested. I'm gonna throw it on the bench immediately. I didn't know it could do 240p. This is the monitor I needed for my supergun, without using an upscaler.
This should work perfect with my retrotink 2x, with 240p pass through. I can't wait to get it going.
I hope it works out for you! It seems like they all just need a recap eventually.
@@retrobitstv I feel like that's just about anything nowadays. My Atari 2600 needed a recap recently, as well as a couple CRT TV's.
Awesome video, Great example of a repair journey. Glad you got it going in the end.
This was my goto PC monitor of choice until MAG came out with a similar unit that had more modes and could support 1280 X 1024.
While most people would have crumbled (me included), I guess a good way to look at it is, you've gained more experience AND the monitor is as close to factory fresh as it's ever going to get. Mind blowing how many modes it can support, how did you learn about that particular brand/make of monitor?
I've seen it in a few 'VGA monitors with 15khz support' lists as well as mentioned on Amiga forums in the past. I've been on the lookout for any such CRT to use with the X68000 mainly :)
So pleased to have found another source of interesting content.
Like the Acorn AKF50/60/70 multisync monitors 👍
Wish monitors were still as good/versatile as this. flat panels are still playing catch up and the loss of CRT displays in terms of quality really can't be understated. Miss when using anything lower than the native resolution still looked good
put the boards into the service mode position.. it is shown in the service manual
I presume the 3D works similar to the Multisync II (which I still have), which means it will work fine with a Tandy Coco 3 in analog RGB as well (In fact it's dot pitch (.28) was much better than Tandy's own CM-8 Analog RGB monitor (.54) , or even my Magnavox CM8515 (.42).
Yep the 3D is just a minor update on the II. I have a CoCo3 that is in need of repair. I will have to build an RGB cable for the machine and try it out, thanks!
NEC had plasmasync displays, Sydney railways used them as next train into.
Burnin was horrible.
The only 4:3 plasma displays I've seen
I've always adored NEC's CRT TVs and monitors. It's a shame they aren't as universally widespread as other brands, if I ever come across either a TV or a monitor in good shape I'll grab it for sure. Didn't know about this model but 90s caps aside the quality doesn't surprise me. Nice job!
Great job!
The red cathode is pretty weak, you can bump up the cut off potentiometer on the neck board.
I didn't really notice until comparing the still shots of the PVM to the NEC and seeing the big difference in color. Fortunately the pots on the neck board are super easy to access so I may have a go at sorting out the color. There are adjustments for each of RGB's gain, bias, and sub brightness but tbh I'm not well-versed in what the difference is. Guess I need to study up first.
To my knowledge, bias is the same as cut-off, controls the 'brightness' of each color (the vertical position of the signal->brightness curve), gain controls the contrast of each color (the slope of the signal->brightness curve), the sub-brightness is just another brightness control which moves the range of normal brightness control up and down @@retrobitstv
You probablyneed tolook for parallel resistance to on the caps. Probably not a bad idea to change out all the small electrolytics to be honest. They have all lived in a hot environment and are over 30 years old which is way more than their intended working life.
I actually have one that have been sitting on a shelf for 20+ years(!). This video inspired me to test and use it sooner rather than later. Is the service manual available online somewhere?
Great video!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it! I downloaded the service manual from the Internet Archive: archive.org/details/nec-multi-sync-3-d-service-manual-model-jc-1404-hma-2
Between those two CRTs, I think you have your vintage display needs covered. If this is the case, will you keep your other displays or...?
I sold one CRT at the VCF Swap Meet when I picked this one up so balance was maintained! I feel like all of these things are going to die permanently some day when flybacks are NLA or yokes burn out so I'm engaging in a little CRT hoarding as a bit of insurance :P
You're gonna need more shelves!
Haha, you have no idea... I did see one CRT when I bought this one so net neutral there at least :P
Definitely a higher resolution but, lacks in size at 13". I wouldn't sell my 25" PVM-2530 for it personally.
Yea, it's definitely not for use in a living room environment but if you're at a desk or something it's a nice compact period-correct size.
Maybe a dumb question: Can you play light gun games on it through MAME? I think I heard somewhere there are some light gun games with "variable timings" (?) that need monitors and guns with very specific specs in order to work at all.
Unfortunately I don't have any lightguns that could easily interface with a PC running MAME. I do have lightguns for NES, SMS, and Saturn I could try with real hardware but I suspect those would work fine.
@@retrobitstv Thanks for the response. Really enjoyed this video. Looking forward to more X68K videos as well
i have one sitting on my living room for a few months if i hadn't seen your video i would probably sell it or give it away . Noooooo way now .
Haha what are the chances? Yea, hang on to that thing!
I'm sure you could have avoided the repairs entirely if you had worn 3D glasses.
Oh man, I wish I had thought of that sooner :P
Will it work with the Commodore 128 vdc 80 column chip?
It does indeed and that was the very first TTL RGB source I tested it with since my C128 is always hooked up and ready to go! Unfortunately the NEC doesn't support composite/s-video so there's no easy way to use 40 column mode without a -c0pperdragon- or converter :/
Sadly mine broke 10y ago it was my Amiga 1200's best friend it had exactly same issue than yours😮
Seems to be a common thing for these to have failed around that time period judging by the posts I've found about them online. I wonder what percentage of them were e-wasted because of it and how many remain just waiting to be repaired?
@@retrobitstv Well my Multisync 3D has been stored for 20 years! I plugged it in today (on an Amiga 2000 with the original Macrosystem deinterlacer) and the image is good although it starts with not using all vertical space. After 10 minutes it is warmed up and the screen looks perfect. Googled to find solution...Your video made me decide I am going to replace the caps! Thanks!
Can it do 50Hz?
Yes, anything from 50 to 90Hz vertical is supported!
That's the thing, sure it is better to know why something fails, but who wants to take things apart over and over again even if you can save 50% of the "good" capacitors?😵💫It's old, new caps only benefit the lifespan, same can be said of total solder reflow efforts.
Multi-sync is definitely one of the major limits in all screen technology even now as manufacturing economy usually only supports a minimum range of sync variations. In hindsight all those past oddball screen modes sure were hard to fix on future LCDs, gave the upscaler makers a lot of homework to do heh.
Definitely not a cheap monitor bitd for all its glory, and that moniker 3D is misleading? More AV ports on a PVM but you can't beat that sweet dot pitch of a PC monitor.🙂
Er, what was the game at ua-cam.com/video/3BjO8S2kDg8/v-deo.html
It SAYS Bardis by Sprite but I can't find any information on it. Either that or that was a uniquely terrible font and company name choice.
So close! The game is Gardis Light by Sprite for the X68000. Yea the font is more decorative than readable :)
@@retrobitstv Coincidentally I happened to see another game that used the same font... and I went oh. >.<
Seriously though, Sprite is an awful name to try and search as most engines just pick up results about sprites. Oh and a modern game company called Sprite. But not the drink or it's mascot game, go figure.
Sadly Gardis looks more of an interesting idea than a full fledged game. :
@@Idelacio Haha yea I can imagine that search being a pain :P I think I saw somewhere that it was a homebrew game. Artwork is nice enough but the gameplay is lacking. I will say the level 1 boss fight is pretty well done.
@@retrobitstv Oh, that makes sense considering the machine it's on.
Nice try making PVM and BVM prices fall...
The Multisync I, II and 3D are way rarer.
CRT hype has gotten crazy lately hasn't it?
Great video and thank you for sharing @retrobitstv