Thanks for doing this video/experiment, Jeff! I think it really helps to put use of emtbs into perspective, which can be tough on a topic that understandably triggers many people. Clearly emtbs are not motorbikes, though, and this video helps to dispell that. However there is also the need to ride responsibly and understand that everyone of us on the trail is an ambassador for the sport whether we realize it or not. Great job!
I am for E-bikes. But I am certain that E-bikes and electronic components in general are a stepping stone to dragging the bicycle kicking and screaming into the Internet of Things and Subscription plans. Many E-bikes already require mating to a phone and will not even operate without it.
What it all comes down to in the end is most people hate change, same thing happened when snowboarding started, I started snowboarding in 1987 and they weren't even letting snowboarders on the lifts now look.
I ride both regular and emtbs. The problem is not ebikes. The problem is a-holes. A-holes can be on regular MTBs too. Be a good human, be kind to your fellow trail users, and recognize you are not that important--certainly not any more important than others on the trail. Have fun, be nice, and be grateful that you are healthy enough to be outside riding bikes.
Bang on. It’s not the bike but the rider. That said, there are crowd issues in Squamish and North Vancouver on weekends with a lack of parking. There are pretty busy trails. Ebikes will make them more crowded. The odd ebike has been riding up downhill primary trails but there are people riding down climb trails. We need to think about a growing sport now. Nor wait until it’s too busy. Ebikes are here though. Not going away so we need to deal with the differences now.
While this is true, the e-bike allows more a-holes access. And it seems to make the a-holes think it's necessary to make new shortcuts on the climbs because they can't be bothered to slow down and follow the actual trail.
I agree 1000%. A-holes are the issue and it's not just on bikes, but hikers included. I do not have an EMTB yet but may in the future, as a MTBer I'm hyper vigilant when it comes to safety, I ring my bell around blind corners, yell 'heads up' and take my time (don't go crazy fast). I always yield to other riders and hikers even when I have the right of way - safety first! I want to be able to ride another day and wish everyone out there the same. Despite this effort, there are a small percentage that are oblivious to the importance of safety which jeopardizes trail access. Because of this, at my local trails I ride there is a division between riders and hikers where certain groups want to get rid of MTBers and are trying to pass legislation to make it happen. This has been going on for years at my local trails but it could become a reality. In the upcoming election there are two opposing candidates: One is for inclusion, and the other want to regulate MTBs. Guess which one I'm voting for?...LOL. In the recent past I've contributed to city meetings with suggestions on ensuring safety for all trail users. We'll have to wait and see what the future holds....
The rivalry / fear of EMTBS reminds me of the skiers vs snowboarders BS of the 90s. I’ve heard it all including how EMTBers don’t know how to ride and they’re destroying the trails. It all stems from ignorance and ego in my opinion. What’s important is that we have more people on the trails enjoying themselves, getting exercise and growing their appreciation for the outdoors. Great video Jeff.
What's weird is the only reason I'm considering a emtb is cuz I mtb so much. I would assume most people get into regular mtb before they spend thousands on an emtb
At 62 I wouldn’t be riding near as much if I didn’t ride a class 1. It levels me out with the emtb riders younger then me, I can keep up with them going up hill and I find the downhill I am way more planted so I am right on their bumper. 300,000 vertical last year and 3/4 of that this year almost all on local trails. Keeps me outside and it still keeps my heart rate up so win win for me. I understand the haters, (I was the same regarding snowboarders because they were wrecking all the mogul runs) but eventually people come around.
I have a pedal MTB and an eMTB... Both Rocky Mountains and over the last year I have slowly been riding the PowerPlay more than my Thunderbolt. Which is better for the forest access roads and the environment? Ride up on your eMTB, or put a few bikes in the back of a pick-up and drive up. I also find I use my PowerPlay more as a short distance commuter rather than take my car.
great video 🙌 I have both bikes I use my Enduro bike for DH, park and shuttle days and use my E bike on pedal days. my experience are same as your tests but much more extreme. Im much faster climbing up on the E bike (3-4 X) and much slower going down on the E bike. I have no idea why people would think that E bikes go faster going DH. The main benefits with the E bike for me is to get the climbs done quicker with less energy so you can get it in many more laps. E bikes are fun. I think most haters haven't tried riding E bikes and that's why they don't understand them.
My assumptions is that a ebike is faster, because the motor allows you to pack on more DH focused parts and still ride up hill. IE you can run chunky tires and a huge travel and still make it up the trail? Is this false though?
@@christopherstirrup5318 no not false. I have set my ebike up as s downhill bike, 190mm travel front with 180mm back, 63 degree head tube angle, saint brakes etc. use it for shuttle runs, I get so many more runs now
Strangely enough my 2022 scott ransom eride cost less than my 2017 ibis hd-3. I love both bikes. Ultimately I like having fun. And my scott ransom eride allows me to have far more fun in a day. And I can do it again the next day. And the next day and so on.
Reluctantly bought a Fuel EXe after battling some lingering medical issues. Brought the joy back to riding. I've ridden it 8 times in the 10 days since I bought it. Best purchase ever. Hate if you want, I'm having a blast!
There is not much we can do to tweak bikes any further at this time, so now manufacturers are going to do anything to keep revenues up. Salesman in Bentonville said they are selling 3-1 E-bikes. It is difficult to convince me that these e-bikes will last as long as a regular bike. Then you have a >5,000 frame worth nothing when there are no replacement parts. 8-12k is out of reach for most people. I have no problems with medical or handicap riders. Riding is different for everyone. On a traditional bike, we earn our downhill. It keeps us in shape. I am 50. I ride to challenge myself. I know if I maintain my Ripley, it will last me as long as I want to ride it.
I got quadriceps tendonitis from my regular MTB. I could only ride 1 day and then I had to take 2-3 days off to heal. I got an e-MTB (Trek Rail) and I ride everyday now with no tendonitis. And hey, riding into uphill berms with some speed on an e-MTB is a kick!
The confidence and ability Emtb give riders levels the playing field a little, which some people don't like... Some people just need speed/momentum to get through technical sections or a little help on long uphills and a little push on switchbacks. EMTBs provide that push which results in confidence which adds to our ability!!! CHEERS 🙂
I’m in the Midwest and ride a Ripley and a Rise. Half of our trails are old school tight technical XC trails and the ebike give you basically zero advantage. I still get passed by the XC guys! The biggest difference is that it takes me about half the time to ride out to the trails which is a huge win, as we are a one-car family.
At 67 and 40 years of mountain biking, 30 in Whistler, I have found I can again uphill again. Using a lightweight bike “ I.E.the Rise” the downhill‘s are definitely fun and the low centre of gravity has got me riding at a higher level again. Jealousy is the usual reaction here in BC when you have a dope e-bike.
Moved to EMTB and agree with all of your points. I will admit, however, on bi-directional trails, the increased speed that we EMTB'ers can climb does increase the close rate between uphill and downhill riders. This can increase chances of a collision, especially on blind curves. I use a bell up and down in the blinds and use caution but the larger contributing factor in these collision situations is often riders (both EMTB and MTB) wearing earbuds listening to loud music not able to use their hearing to alert them. On bi-directional trails, I think we EMTBers need to exercise extra caution on the uphills and everyone (imo) should take full advantage of their hearing to help alert them to oncoming traffic a bit sooner.
Jeff Great Video. I think that we should share this video with all land managers to show the difference between the bikes. I had a land manager at Demo forest in CA tell me the reason they don't want E Bikes on their trails is that E bikes go 30MPH up hill. After a long conversation with her she let me know that her husband had a heart attack trying to keep up with their son. At 63 I cant push myself to climb as fast as my 21 year old son and by having some help from my E Bike we can share Mt Biking together. I agree that we all need to join the fight for more trail access. We recently had a protest at a local riding area where 12 of us got a ticket for riding on an I closed trail. By voicing our concerns they are now in the process of opening up some more trails to Mt Bikes. Keep fighting for our right to ride.
Reason #4: Gatekeeping due to a superiority complex shared by many MTBers who have "ridden for years". They'll hide behind anecdotes of an eBiker who ran into a hiker because they were going too fast, or some other generic reason all the while discounting there are just as many inconsiderate analog MTBers.
That is one of the the best posts about this theme. There is really no reason to hate e-bikers just because they ride a pedal assist bike. In every group there are dudes, that don t understand, what it takes to build a trail, taking care of it, that technical skills are needed for riding uphill and downhill etc. We can all ride and help each other, to have better and better trails. Cheers from eMTB Slovenia!
What it all comes down to in the end is most people hate change, same thing happened when snowboarding started, I started snowboarding in 1987 and they weren't even letting snowboarders on the lifts then, now look.
I'm not afraid of eMTB but as a person who rides both bicycles and motorcycles, which have been banned from trails all over the place, I want clarity about what constitutes a 'motorized cycle'. Locally, Galbraith trails started as motorcycle trails, and it was only because the trails already existed that mountain bikers started riding there. 31 years ago when I started riding here, motorcycles and bicycles shared those trails. Not any longer. So, if a motorcycle is banned, then other motorized cycles should also be banned. If motorized cycles are allowed, then allow motorcycles. It is also super annoying to have someone come up behind you on an ebike on a climb and have them itching to pass you because they have electric assist. I guess I do embrace certain aspects of the Puritan ethic, if you're on a mountain bike trail, use your own energy. If you're poaching a trail on which eMTBs are banned, then back the #@$! off and pass somewhere where the person on an allowed bike doesn't have to get out of your way. And if you're poaching it on a motorcycle...
Mountain biking has been monumental for my well being, both physically and mentally. This has been especially true during COVID, when getting out on the trail to clear my head became essential. Then last year, I tore my ACL and lateral meniscus in a crash, and got a post op DVT to complicate recovery even further. Suffice to say, that weekly blissful trail therapy was taken away in an instant, and I was devastated. After a slow healing process, I was able to get back on my bike eventually, but the knee pain and muscle atrophy were real, and limited my riding in performance and enjoyment. With rehab taking a lot longer than I expected, I finally decided to pick up a Kenevo SL on a black friday sale. I didn't want a full powered ebike, but something that would handle more like an acoustic bike, with just a little pedal assist (35Nm) to help lighten the load. I think ebikes have a place in modern MTB, whether it's to compensate for age, injury, fitness, or just increase your stoke. But we all need to remember to share the trails and be respectful to each other, especially if you have an ebike. Tread lightly, be kind, and pass with care, just like you should be doing already on your acoustic bike.
I am a 50+ and just getting back into biking in general (car free) and mountain biking specifically to help my 7 year old son enjoy the sport. EMTB has allowed all of this for our family. We have taken a series of mountain biking courses to learn how to ride with specific interest in not damaging trail infrastructure and learning the etiquette of the sport. We have joined the local mountain bike trail advocacy network and helped with trail maitenace. We get out more often with my EMTB and when my son gets tired I can tow him wherever. Our mental and physical health is better because we are out way more often. "Daddy are you riding in Eco mode?". Yup I am. This whole conversation reminds me of when snowboarding appeared on the scene. Look at what that has done for the industry. EMTB is doing the same. This has changed our lives.
I own a stumpjumper Evo and a Levo. I loved the Evo so much that I bought it's eMTB doppelganger. I have an extremely busy life. I work 12 hour night shifts in a hospital as an RN. Sometimes I work 5 shifts in a row. I love that I can wake up and hit the trail for an hour and cover the same amount of ground I would in 2 hours and I don't exhaust myself. It's still a great aerobic workout and I burn about 600 calories. And I can hit my next shift in the hospital feeling the stoke from getting out when I never would have considered doing that on my analog bike. Still love ripping my Evo. Always take my analog bike when I'm riding with friends. Funny thing is I'm more fit since I bought an eMTB because I'm getting more rides in and I'm throwing around a heavier bike when I'm going DH.
Hello Jeff! I’d like to tell my experience as a rider from Central Italy who has recently switched to Ebike (Giant Reign E+2 2022) after several years riding a regular one. I am 35 years old, quite in shape (I regularly exercise twice a week) but with a little time available for MTB since 5 days out of 7 I am at work while the remaining spare time is shared between my family (mainly wife and a 10 months old son) and hobbies. This leaves me very little time for pedal training which is fundamental for dealing with the trails of my area, where very often you have to spare hours on hard climbing to enjoy a few tens of minutes of downhills. Furthermore, considering how much certain trails are rocky, steep and technical it becomes quite risky to hit them with the lack of concentration necessary to avoid ruinous falls, that in case of injuries would be a real “tragedy” for someone with so many commitments as I am. Before being a father I had way more free time to train with my muscular bike (this is the way we call regular bikes in Italy) and so, despite I always needed much time to reach trails I could at least hit them with the necessary lucidity. But now things are changed and the last rides I attended before the switch, have all been tiring and dangerous. So, together with a riding bud, we decided to witch to Ebikes and I am not regretting this choice at all! I can speed up the uphills and consequently ride more trails in the same time I previously needed for just one or two runs, while maintaining the necessary level of attention to enjoy the downhill without tiring-related-risks! So more fun, less fear and a better time management. It is also important to point out two main things…. First thing, it is not true that riding Ebike is not really training, since power must be managed properly if you want to ride more ant this requires more effort from the rider. Second, I want to reassure all those concerned about possible implications of the extra weight on riding performances; Ebikes geometry is studied to minimize the effects of this weight and you would at worst notice a bit more of fatigue during the first riding experiences together with the need of anticipating a bit the braking when dealing with curves. I hope telling my experience and reasons is going to be interesting and useful for you and your followers. PS. Forgive possible mistakes and typos but I wrote fast from my phone while pausing between tasks.
Mate I took up ebike downhill and enduro riding at 60, now 64. I’m doing stuff my son was doing on his bike as a kid, never thought I could do these things! Great sport, heaps of new friends , I ride with my son also, he is now 24. A great thing to keep in touch with a son and daughter. Make sure you share your passion with your kids.
Thanks Jeff for this great video highlighting that both classes at the end of the day are MTBs. Where I ride, on Vancouver Island, we have eMTBs out on the trail and I've never seen any issues or heard from my riding buddies of eMTB specific issues. The key to me is this is a lifestyle as much as a sport, and if having an eMTB allows someone to continue in that lifestyle or join it then so much the better. Less than 1HP isn't going to make any impact on the trails or our experiences. And let's remember that even all acoustic bikes aren't the same nor is the fitness level of every rider. There are faster riders you'll need to accommodate whether they are on an ebike or not. Let's just support our trail builders, support each other regardless of what type of bike we are on, and enjoy being out in the forest doing one of the most enjoyable things (I believe) there is to do.
I think a lot of it is riders just don't want any more people on the trails. They Should look at it as an opportunity to expand trails for everyone, and I ride an acoustic bike literally 95%+ of the time for the reasons you gave
@@spunkush depends on the culture of the place. Truckee has dedicated emtb trails in certain places now. In moab mtbs share a lot of trails with motos and jeeps. In Santa Cruz everything is volunteer maintained with illegal/access issues and not too much funding. The problem is if e-bikes turn every trail network into a bike park, who’s gunna be the metaphorical bike park maintenance crew?
You definitely cannot blame that on e-Bikes . I have been riding mountain bikes in Golden, Colorado on the exact same trails for almost 40 years. The sport blew up 15 years ago and continues to gain popularity so it’s definitely not Ebikes to blame. I used to be the only on some of the busiest trails around and now you will see literally 50 riders or more on the same trails It’s a great sport people love it and the marketing in the industry doesn’t great job making people think every year they need a new mountain bike that’s adding more riders into the pool We all need to work together to keep the trails open If we go against each other eventually, the the land management committees just give up and close everything There are literally hundreds of miles of trails on the front range where you used to be able to ride a bike and now they are closed because they just simply couldn’t make a decision to appease everybody
We just purchased Two Orbea Rise (an h30 and an h15) Saturday afternoon, just after watching your review. Not saying your review sold us on them...but it certainly didn't hurt! We actually rented Rise h30s in Bentonville for a day over the summer. That's pretty much what sold us.
The best reason for eMTBs is conservation of energy. I’m 66 and the eMTB allows me to do group rides with younger stronger riders without them having to wait for me. It also means I can still do those longer rides of my youth. I don’t always ride my eMTB but when I do I usually have more energy left to ride further.
All great points. Hopefully we can use this new type of mountain biker to help with the trails through giving back to local mtb groups and dig days. You made this point as well and I never thought of that. Thanks for the great video.
Things like the Surron being called "electric bikes" is an issue as well. I love pedal assist emtbs and how they get people on trails, but I've spoken with many people who think of throttles and going 20+mph all the time when I say "ebike."
@@legyvanmaster I know. I'm saying the general public doesn't always know the difference which is a problem for getting pedal assisted bikes allowed on trails. This confusion is in part because surron calls their dirt bike an "electric bike" on their website.
I just finished a cycle, started with analog and then switched to emtb, now I am back at analog. At the end of the day, at least I am riding for fun based on the constraints I have (time, energy level, skill set). There is no bad or good choices, I always asked myself at end of each ride, did I have fun, was I nice to the hikers/bikes on the trail, how can I improve the next ride.
This seems entirely lost in the arguments. MTB riding is recreation, what others do does not affect your choices. Have fun riding and support others having fun too, even if they do it differently. What is important is that both MTB and eMTB be targeted to the same usage. As long as they are, access is a contrived problem to be opposed.
Also, my reasoning for rejecting e-bikes when they first came out was the fact that those riding them were not putting in the same "effort" I was. I didn't see it as fair. But I was mistaking. I was wrong. I rode for fitness and now I ride for fun.
Last summer on Fromme there was a woman ripping up Mountain Highway on a e-bike doing laps of Bobsled and shooting, " on your lef"t as she stormed past. I dropped in about 30 seconds behind her on Bobsled and was practically running over her back tire pretty quickly; so I politely called out and asked to squeeze by. While passing I said, "now isn't that nicer than shouting on your left?"
@@briannyob7799 To paraphrase, you got passed on a trail so you chased the rider down to pass back, and when you did you made a snide comment. Most of us have experienced your behavior, we just don't admire it. If you're gonna complain about "on your left", you're taking on a huge part of cycling culture. It is intended as a courtesy even if it wounds your pride.
I have both an ebike and a pedal bike. Climbing and XC is significantly better with a motor, and going for an extended ride is much easier. Downhill on the pedal bike is massively better than the ebike. The ebike is heavy, hard to get off of the ground, hard to jump, hard to toss around, harder to change directions, etc. I don't go faster downhill on my ebike because I don't pedal downhill (does anyone? Lol). I ride my regular bike most days. I got into mountain biking because of the ebike that I bought first. I probably wouldn't have gotten a regular bike and subsequently donated time and money to the local mountain biking organizations without having gotten the ebike first. It allowed me to ease myself into the sport and get myself into better riding shape while learning how to control a bike on easy trails. E-bike hate just feels like pointless gatekeeping to me, but I do understand the fear of losing land access. There needs to be more advocacy regarding e-mtb and the fact that they are most definitely NOT motorcycles. The weight difference is negligible (what if I just gained 20 pounds?). The power difference is negligible (what if I just cranked harder on the pedals?).
"...but I do understand the fear of losing land access." Except this fear is caused by MTB riders themselves. They stoke it, and their organizations lobby, and in some cases control, access. Decades ago, assisted cycling was anticipated and laws were created in advance. Then eBikes became a thing, MTB advocacy groups started knee-jerk reactions promoting trail access bans and PeopleForBikes sprang up to redo, in an inferior manner, work that had already been over much of the US. The current class 1-3 stuff is worse than what we had before. The industry has always had a healthy and responsible approach to the development of eBikes, it is conventional cyclists that are the problem. The fear of losing access is created by cyclists in order to cause loss of access to eBikes, access that was intended to be provided from the very start.
The land access loss argument is nonsense. Here in CO Jefferson Co. just west of Denver has had open access to EMTBs for a few years on all open space trails. The bigger issues were user conflicts regardless of mode and those were resolved by advocacy and trail changes, not banning users.
My issue with eMTB is related to trail etiquette and riding direction. In Boise, ID we have very few directional trails, but many that are traditionally ridden in one direction (or loops). It's most annoying when I'm downhilling a sweet section of trail, only to stop and let uphill rider pedal past me and realize it is an eBike. Before eMTB existed it was a rare occasion to see people pedaling UP steep or knarly sections. And if they were, kudos! eBikes are still technically illegal on most of our trails, mind you, so my rule following nature doesn't like seeing them. I am okay with allowing them on MTB trails, but only once directional routes are established. Maybe I just miss the days of less busy trails and clean runs on a loop without losing my flow! 🙂
I live at the bottom of Hulls Gulch, ride those trails multiple t8mes a week, and tend to only ride Hulls itself on DH days. I never see e-bikes going DH, but always see them climbing up sidewinder and other trails like that. Last summer there were two ladies riding Surrons (e-motos) on 3 Bears. That was ridiculous.
@@BBurton1231 There’s a huge difference between an eMTB and a Suron. HUGE difference. It’s ignorance that’s causing this issue not the ebikers. Suron are class 3s that borders on being a dirt bike and don’t belong on the trail, eMTBs however do belong on the trails and yes they do tend to ride uphill because eMTBs make climbs fun 😎
So basically your issue is that you think you own the trails and that they're only for you and the way you want to ride them. I think your issues run deeper than ebikes.
@@snigs5T5 yeah just say fuck it and don't yield to people climbing the trail. DH for life! The idea of yielding for someone climbing is meant for non motorized bikes. If you have an emtb get out of the way for people who are descending.
Thank you so much for this video!!! You did a great job of explaining the difference. I’ve been riding both e-bike and analog for about a year. The paranoia around class 1 e-bikes is redicilous and egotistical. Cheers all!
Just got an e-bike and tow my two sons up very long climbs. What would be a one and done ride has become sessionable. We ride longer, practice more, have more fun, while grinding less. And counterintuitively get MORE exercise because we don't bonk as quickly.
A lot of good sense in this video!! Most of the vigorous eMTB haters seem to soften dramatically after they actually try one. It just makes for waaaaay more fun on a bike. People should still be kind and considerate either way (but sometimes aren't, Lol).
Nice to see some level headed commentary on this subject. I recently recorded a video also looking at how much faster is an ebike over a regular bike (I’m still editing it). I found that trail dynamics really comes into play. While the ebike felt much faster the overall time on an 8 mile, 1,000 ft course was not that great. I will post the results next week.
great vid. much of mine climbing is fireroad and i can blaze way faster on the ebike. just did a 4 day trip with 20,000 vert(each ride 5000 down in one shot). couldn't come close to that on my reg bike.
Here in NZ we don't have the access issues so less hate generally, a point you missed is the extra riding you do on the e, what was a 15-20k steam bike ride is now a 30-40k e bike ride . . 2 or 3 times as often.
Great video. I am 65 years old and ride with other friends in their 70s and eMTBs make this possible. I think that is is fine to have Class 1 ebikes on the trails because you still have to pedal to get the e-assist. I don't think Class 2 bikes with a throttle would be good as then I think it would be easier to rip up the trail on climbs by just twisting the throttle to blast out of turns instead of having to pedal. eMTB are all about doing the tough climbs without maxing out my heart rate constantly. That said, it is still easy to get very tired even on an ebike.
The accessibility of e-bikes is consistently understated. Here in Alberta, I see plenty of older and differently able people on trails that likely would never have a chance to enjoy them without e-bikes. These devices democratize mountain biking. Once the prices come down, things will get even better for more people. I once saw a guy on a sports wheelchair with a fat bike fashioned to the front riding gravel. It was awesome!
I got my first emtb a month ago, and thought this day would never happen. When I rode one for a full day, I felt in love for how much more I could ride. I have both now and we all live happy together :), there is room for a BMX....maybe..
Emtb is the best thing that happened to mountain biking. I work in kitchen, so a lot working hours standing. With analog bike I rode like 1-2 times per few weeks, with e bike I ride each 2-3days having way more fun not being exhausted. Isn't mountainbiking is about having fun? No need to be jealous or rage on emtbs, just have fun with what you have.
Im in Scotland and eebs are totally acceptable here. Im a touch slower on the downhill with the ebike from having to brake earlier but im not bothered since i can get more laps in. Also there is basically no lift access riding anywhere near me so that could be why ebikes are getting pretty popular around here. But when i jump on my evil wreckoning it feels way more lively.
Thanks jeff for shining a light on this issue. Imo the ebike paranoia is a replay of the " crisis " over snowboards at ski areas . Hand wringing. Cheers.
You make some valid points- but I feel you're missing on a few key ones also. I'd argue the risk/fear is not in the tool itself, but the way it is used: - I've personally had some scary close calls with ebikers going up sketchy downhill sections for the sake of a good challenge. Inches from severe injury. - e-bikes are often a sort of "gateway drug" attracting new riders, which in itself is awesome. However, for many, their skill and trail etiquette are still unrefined... which leads some risky situations on the trail (for both themselves and other riders) - Insurance - I'd argue that the behavior I mentioned will lead to more injuries, which will no go unnnoticed by insurance companies. Those companies won't draw a fine line whether you've got a motor or not - we'll all be guilty by association, and end up paying much more on insurance, which is already the most significant (and often prohibitive) cost for event and race organizers. - In my neck of the woods, anything with a motor attracts people who are... how shall I say it... not as well mannered as your typical mountain biker. The percentage of douchebags on ebikes is significantly higher - and it shows in their behavior on the trail, the amount of garbage they leave behind, and their respect for the trails themselves. I think all those are legitimate concerns and hardly talked about. You can't bring those up without being labelled as a "typical luddite eBike hater".
well you have a point there. on the downhill sections if it isnt marked downhill only they are technically in the right. the issue is more the people than the bike.
@@SimonBauer7 Thanks. I'll just add - A) many trails (if not most) in many countries are not fully marked. B) common sense and self preservation clearly puts them in the "wrong" side of the equation. No behavior which puts others at serious risk is "right". C) "technically right" is copping out - 99% of the time those sections are CLEARLY downhill trails, marking or not. Besides, I get that many riders enjoy going up technical sections, but most riders (incl. ebikers) prioritize descending and we cant make trails symmetric all of a sudden. D) Where I live, trail markings have little meaning. They're just a general recommendation, but with no real enforcement to back it up. It's all about etiquette and norm - and the norm is shifting. At some point it will end very badly, i'm afraid.
Wow 😂 you really put a lot of effort into this explanation. It doesn’t matter where you live or what you’re doing, you gonna find stupid people. That doesn’t mean we should ban certain items like… cars, because people don’t drive them properly and cause problems for everyone else. Just stop and educate that poor d-bag. Take advantage of the situation and educate people (calmly I might add🙃).
I don't believe it is only about speed. Additional factors to consider should be the additional weight of the e-mtb and the ability to ride more laps for the same amount of human effort. Like it or not these two additional factors will play a role in trail wear. If everyone used common sense when operating a e-mtb I doubt we would have videos like this, alas the few likely ruin it for the many
The only problem i can see with the heavier ebikes is on popular trails where suddenly the tree roots have a bad case of gingivitis some softer trails cant handle too much traffic
That is valid point but I think we need to be careful with that argument. The solution to reducing trail wear is to close them to all bikes. All bikes wear a trail. Heavier riders on acoustic bikes also wear a trail more than lighter riders. I am not sure that the argument to ban eMTBs purely on "trail wear concerns" would not backfire and limit access to all mountain bikes.
When I was big into 4wd there was a trail system that decided that big tires were causing more erosion on the trails. So their solution was to limit the tire size that could legally use those trails. This limit ended up doing more damage in one year than they saw in the entire history of the trail system. The key is to have regular trail days and address actual condition issues of the trail to limit the damage that it is prone to without sanitizing the trail.
I dont own an e-bike but one day i’m gonne buy one. Im riding 100km in a week gravel/enduro mtb so my physique is good. But as i’m getting older and every day working in construction. My body /joints are hurting more and more. I just want to go on those 40k saturday enduro mtb rides(with 1500 up/down meters) and not feeling my body for like 2 or 3 days after the ride. The people i know with an e-bike bought them for the same reasons. Its not to going fast but just to help them for the climbing… Imagine this, if you can put your 60-65 yr (none sporty) old dad with you on a day of riding an ebike, and share your passion with him. Isn’t that the greatest gift ever?
I ride only cross country, no downhill in Florida. Don’t like it when an ebiker wants to pass on on tight single track trail. Whats the point of an eMountian bike? Larry
Great video Jeff! I see an additional 2 reasons why folks don't like e bikes. 1) They can't afford one (or don't want to afford one). 2) Are paranoid their strava dominance will disappear uphil. It will take an ADA lawsuit is all, preventing folks with disabilities from accessing trails because of no pedal assist allowed will result in change eventually. A lot of stuff in the USA is driven by lawsuits. United States Forest Service hurry up and change your management plans to allow pedal assist.
Honestly I think I fall into the offended because I worked hard to get here category. Also I enjoy climbing, so I am typically seen as the weirdo. I am not against people riding E-bikes, just on the north shore there are alot of people speeding by at top speed with no disregard to others. If one of those guys runs a hiker off the trail, I can see us losing access for all. Oh, and don't get me started on the non pedal assist commuter bikes that people trick themselves I to thinking they are exercising and don't even pedal haha.
Thanks for addressing the e-mtb hate issue. As a 35+ year mountain biker and recent e-mtb'er I have come to a similar POV, especially relate to your first point. It took mountain bikers a long time to gain trail access and there are a lot of emotional arguments on both sides of the trail access debate. But as it turns out dangerous and destructive rail usage is not about the bike, it's about the rider, the hiker, and the equestrian rider's behaviors. I hope e-bikes in the US become better understood and gain access much like they have in Europe, because they are great fun and enable many of us older riders to continue riding.
In Idaho dirt bikes are required to have an annual $12 ORV sticker to help pay for trail maintenance. Make the same requirement for EMTB that goes to local trails and boom, EMTB is welcome with open arms.
Most people complaining about e-bikes have never ridden both on the same trails, but all they significantly help on, as you demonstrated, are non-technical climbs. Between the Specialized e-bike I borrowed, my hardtail e-bike I built, and my Marin full suspension, the latter is the faster and the most fun on a descent. So long as e-bikes are class conforming, there is nothing at all to fear with them.
I have an HD3 and a Trance-E. The Ibis is far quicker down the trail than the Trance, save for when there is any up sections where you need a few pedal strokes. On tech uphill climbs though I'd say its about even with each offering different advantages depending on terrain. Most days the bike chosen depends on the trails we are going to.
I have demoed the SC Heckler and the newest Spec Levo. I like my analog bikes, but damn the eebs are fun. Climbing rocks feels like the dirt bike but so much lighter. Unless you're intentionally trying to pedal out some burnouts the eebs are not anymore damaging to trails. I don't mind seeing them on my local trails as the owners are pretty limited to where they can ride and most people are unaware that they even have a motor.
My next full sus will definitely be an ebike. I'm suffering from shoulder damage (torn tendon) & repeated aggravation of the sciatic nerve down my left leg. In both cases it's due to biking. Silly crash busted my shoulder & my spine has a clump of nerve scaring in the docs opinion caused by repeated small impacts & crashes on the bike. My fitness has been hugely impacted by these injuries, recently particularly the sciatica. If I'm going to keep biking I'm going to need an ebike.
Class 1 pedal assist bikes should be allowed anywhere mountain bikes are, the throttle bikes are a different story. I've been riding for 30 years but at 65 my knees are not what they used to be, many new bikes like my Trek Fuel EXe are super quiet, most people have no idea it's an ebike.
I don't understand the concern about ebikes with a throttle. All ebikes have a motor. Whats the difference if your foot or thumb is activating that motor? Ive ridden ebikes with throttle offroad and they are actually perfect because you can put them in the lowest power mode and then just tap the throttle when you need boost to get over a rocky uphill section. Guys without a throttle just have the more awkward situation of having to take their bike out of eco and put it into turbo mode. The throttle is just a quicker temporary way into boost or turbo mode.
@@currentsupply They have class 2 and 3 ebikes now with a throttle that are as fast as some motorcycles, like the Surron those have no place on MTB trails in my opinion.
@@rjahn3000 A class 1 Specialized emtb will be faster on a mountain bike trail than most class 3 ebikes with a throttle. And a MTB without a motor will be faster than any ebike at top speed. But yeah a Surron is an electric motorcycle, not an electic bicycle.
Im getting older 60+ and recently not a strong as I used to be. Not being as strong and lamenting getting older, the eMTB has become a real choice for me. I still have an 2022 EPIC EVO cause its a blast but I bought a used Orbea Rise 2021-22 for an event our group did and am struggling to let it go again. The Rise can be used power OFF and ride with the analogues in our bunch or power ON and chase the eMTBs when they join in. Some of the guys have full fat eMTBs and do lament the weight, however the Rise at 19kg, with pedals, is not too heavy to load into the van and agile enough on the trails that I am struggling to let it go. Ive taken the Assagai 2.5 off the front and installed Mountain Kings 2.3 front and rear, just the front dropped 600gms in tyre weight and made the Rise more agile. I plan to install some ELITE wheels 1450gr to get the last of the weight off that I will afford. Get the Rise down to about 18.3kg. I find that I go exploring on the Rise, where I wouldnt on the EVO, having that motor to climb the unclimbable fire roads and rough scrub just invites trail blazing and looking around.
I have both. If I was doing nothing but downhill my Meta SX would be the choice every time. To me the pedal bike is simply better going downhill. Better handling, easier to throw around and more fun in general. The additional 15lbs on the eMTB is much more cumbersome, it doesn't turn, jump or brake as well. In my experience trying to push the eMTB as fast as the pedal bike is a recipe for disaster. But I can go way further, in way less time on the eMTB. And days are getting shorter. I ride 4-5 times/week and split time between both of them pretty evenly. Sometimes I enjoy the cathartic nature of pedaling uphill, if I have the time. Keep up the good work Jeff!
I dont want to be the caused of Forrest fire. Lithium based batteries are very very volatile! Do some research about, all you need is little moisture get inside and you're done.
A class 1 emtb is not the issue. It’s the risk of losing access to trails because of anything with a throttle on trails they don’t belong on. And there are plenty of assholes disregarding the rules. Though I have my own bias where I don’t feel they put in the same effort, I also believe they cost way too much and the rate of improvement is so high I see no reason to invest in one until I’m old enough to need one.
Ebikes are awesome and it is not about how much faster you can go but is more about how much more ground i can cover in the same amount of time, between family and work my time to ride was less and less, I decided to get an ebike and now can do anywhere from 16 to 20 miles in way less time that I was spending in my regular pedal bike, I still love my regular bike but at my age and the limited time I have to ride Ebike makes way more sense.
One of the biggest issues I see with emtbs (I ride an emtb) is the misunderstanding of a difference of the different classes and the difference between an emtb and e-dirtbike who also like to call themselves ebikes. There is a world of difference between a class 1 emtb and a surron. Even guys I've biked with for 20+ years don't want to learn the difference. (they also were against wider tires years ago and now swear by them)
63 years old here and emtbs cheat my strava times on runs that are littered with short, punchy, steep, and difficult climbs found between technical and gnarly downs. New category perhaps?!
Tried an early e-bike and this thing had a full on throttle, not just assist. It could hit close to 20mph without rider input. Using higher gears and pedaling, I could easily hit 40 mph. I think if you would have shifted, you could have made it up the climb faster. There’s riders here hitting jumps going uphill.
Since most of the comments are about ebikes I'm going to add a comment about Jeff's jorts. Jeff is bringing jorts back ladies and gentlemen! Looking good 😁
I'd like to first emphasize the fact that I am brand new to mountain biking, so I have little knowledge on things like etiquette etc. I am, however, a little confused about this debate because I kind of see E-bikes as a form of pedaling assistance, that opens more opportunity to the rider. Kind of like an expansion on gears. For instance, is it poor etiquette to use a 1x12 when there are Singlespeed bikes? Again, I'm new to all of this so I may be missing some key info, such as whether the debate is instigated from a mechanical/design standpoint, or a rider standpoint.
Been riding dirt bikes for years and mtb for fitness so a e-mtb is a no brainer for me. I'm holding off buying a e-mtb due to the myriad of choices and how quick they advance. I keep checking out your videos to see what e-mtb you are riding. I have lost riding opportunity (both dirt bike and mtb) to development and from the mentality if you don't walk, hike or ride a horse you are not allowed. I moved out of Cali and it is pretty amazing to ride, on dirt roads and trails, used by walkers, hikers, dogs on leashes, 4X4's, ATV's, side X sides, dirt bikes, mtb's and e-mtb's.
At age 61 and never really been a big cardio guy, I love my Santa Cruz Hightower for tight up and down cross country trails, but seriously considering an ebike for those days where I go with a group of guys to ride on a mtn bike designated riding area where there are big climbs before the fun stuff. Just because I can’t keep up on the climbs and find myself trashed by the time I get to the top. So, I’d use the ebike to get up the hills easier, or same effort/2x or 3x as far a climb vs the analog bike. Not there yet, kinda waiting for the new ebikes as the tech seems to be improving so quickly
Read an article on Singletracks about ebikes in the USA, apparently you guys have had them within regulation since 2002 - way before eMTB was even a feature on the bike landscape. I am in the UK, owned a couple of hardtail eMTB's over the years (don't currently) and ridden a few full fat versions and all are brilliant - going to a trail centre here, even a bike park with uplift and you will see more than regular bikes. We are restricted to 250w and 15.5mph - the limiter on the Canadian ebike i tried a few years back was i think 30kmph which was a lot more natural than our 25kmph. All in all, ebikes are here to stay - just pedal-assist.
I’m not apposed to emtb’s I may buy one one day, as an older mtb’r that’s been riding over 30 years I was involved in trail advocacy since the early 90s when we gained access to lots of places because we were a non- motorized trail user. I’m afraid that blurring that line may loose access to some of the most special trails that I love the most.
@@JeffKendallWeed It's not only the "most valid" reason, it is the only reason. And ultimately it is a fear born of ignorance. eMTB riders are also "non-motorized trail users", as that is a legal class of vehicle that does not include eMTB, hence education is the problem.
I took up electric unicycles and now that they have big powerful motors with full suspension, so mountain bike trails are my number one choice for a ride. So I think I'll add to the mix of the craziness.
Great video but I prefer the term Analogue vs Acoustic bike. or just MTB vs eMTB. Having ridden mtbs for many many years i moved to a focus eMTB and can now ride and keep up with mates who are much younger and havent had so many injuries from years of pushing analogue bikes around. The use case for an eMTB isnt to replace MTBs, its to support people who dont for whatever reason have the capability to ride long distances on MTBs
I ride a normal pedal bike (Santa Cruz Hightower) for the same reason I drive a base model 6 speed manual car. I just want the fun essentials and don’t want the headaches of more technology. I don’t have anything against the bikes or the people that ride them, they just aren’t for me.
I'd say it's the cost of an ebike, a well spec push bike vs based model ebike.. In terms of value i'll go for a well spec bike for less money. Maintainability is another thing, you have a motor to deal with, cost of repair of, extra battery (extra cost) to carry if you're doing long rides. Not sure about trail access with Ebikes in the UK but here it's pretty much open for any pedal assist bikes.
In your review of the Orbea Rise you said that you had to go to Canada to ride it as that bike is not legal on your local trails. Same situation where I live. Our local ranger district does not allow ebiking. So unless and until they are cleared for use, ebikes will not be of much interest to me. I can't see spending $8,000 (or more) on a bike with very limited riding potential where I live. Now all this said, I ride on average about 5 days per week, going from about 15 to 45 miles per ride with anywhere from 2500 to 7500 vertical on those rides. If ebikes were legal here, I might be interested in one. It might be nice to have a bit of extra go-go power one day a week and give my legs a rest. Haha! But that just isn't in the cards now and I don't see our forests opening to ebikes anytime soon. I have learned a good bit from your videos over the years. Thank you for sharing them with us all!
Its funny to see all this resistance to ebikes in the USA...Where I live (West Europe) there's not so much of that and in my local trails more than half are already ebikes...The reason is simple: with steep climbs and short tracks ebikes equal more time going down in less going up...If I have have a 2 hour brake I can do way more with a ebike now :)
Very well thought out presentation & methodical approach to address the "fear mongering" related to eMTB. I have ridden both & prefer acoustic for the qualities you highlighted. The biggest pro to me for eMTB is the ability to ride multiple days in a row and/or longer days in the saddle. So many of us travel to ride, and the limiting factor for me is usually my quads after 3 or 4 days of hard riding. eMTB opens the possibility of packing in exploring more new epic singletrack in a short window. Another con I haven't seen mentioned is trail impact due to increased traffic with riders more easily able to lap/session sections on an eMTB. A lot of popular trails get blown out in their current state & don't get the maintenance they need. The solution to this isn't to ban eMTB, but to increase engagement with our local trail advocacy & maintenance groups like you stated. More butts on saddles is ALWAYS a good thing!
I own a stumpjumper evo and a Levo. Love riding both of them. I ride my evo with my friends. When I'm going out for a solo ride I like to take my eMTB. I have a busy life and if I can get 2 hours worth of MTB riding in 1 hour of eMTB that means I can squeeze in rides on days that I wouldn't have been able to
I live in Ontario, and for some purist is like ebikes are for old guys out of shape or A-holes. But to be honest I have tried them and like it. I think is not bad at all you can enjoy longer rides with less fatigue and also a good training aide if you can afford the bike and its maintenance go for it as we cyclist love our n+1.
So, I own both an emtb and a normal mtb, and I use both as much as I can. Since in our area we don't have real mtb trails built for purpose, this means that getting up hills and dirt roads is a lot easier with an emtb. I am also a father of two kids, and I have little free time to ride, so the emtb allows me to ride more km in the same amount of time than with my normal mtb. (Merida eone sixty vs scott ransom 920). I ride my normal mtb whenever I get the chance to take part in an enduro race event or go to a bikepark, or when I happen to have more time for riding with friends on normal mtbs. Emtb and mtb are two different tools for similar purposes, having fun going downhill, I can have fun on both of them, and to be honest I ride my emtb more because of my current situation. If I were to live near a huge bikepark then obviously the mtb would get more ride time. The emtb has helped me a ton to progress my skills on the bike, gain confidence and enjoy this sport, without wrecking my body for not being as fit as I used to be 15 years ago. So I see the benefit of both mtb and emtb, and hating on either of these seems totally pointless to me. If someone is an idiot on an emtb then that person will be an idiot on an mtb too, it wouldnt matter. Cheers Jeff for the great content, love your channel!
Agreed on all this. I have also heard that since e bikes put down more torque, they accelerate damage to the trail. Not sure if I fully buy it, but it would be interesting if this could get tested in practice as that’s the only thing that I could see as a downside.
It was done in USA to get authorization access to a park. Don't remember his name. More the bike+biker are heavy, more the trail is damaged, very tiny change but mesurable. Conclusion: forbidden trail to bike+biker weighting more than 120kg? Oups, this is already the case, bike limitation.
I have heard that argument, but none of it compares to equestrian damage. Horse are awesome, but they tear up trails worse than actual dirt bikes. (Plus they shit everywhere.)
Studies have been attempted to show this. No evidence that this is true exists so far, and intuitively it is BS. eBikes only "put down more torque" when it would be an advantage to do so. That would be during climbs. It would not be during descents. Blasting down descents, which is not an eMTB-specific feature, causes more trail damage than climbing, intuitively. Sorry, but "more torque = more trail damage" is a contrived argument.
@@craigsj no need to apologize. I figured it was BS. All I’m saying is it would be need if we could get some creators to break down even more myths in a public way so trail associations make changes to their regulations. Right now it doesn’t matter what’s true because there is a stigma and because there isn’t info readily available to the people opposed to e-bikes. Videos like this (and the one I’m suggesting) help combat that. I want to see more bike on the trail, electric or not.
A very well reasoned analysis. Did a big loop of the West a month or so ago and the majority of the time there was a welcoming attitude at the shops and on the trails. Colorado has a more distinct anti-vibe to it though. The point about including more riders into advocacy groups is a solid point that I hope proves visionary.
Funnily enough I think the concept of the video "it's not that different!" is exactly why many people also see problems. This is generating e-waste; you have batteries which will die. The price is higher. It is using scarcer resources for a pure hobby benefit of "minor" deviation of performance. I think for some people it makes sense as they get older or are injured, but by and large it's wasteful for people who just don't want to pedal as hard and are physically capable of conditioning themselves to do so. My 2 cents.
I'm for the evolution on eMTB, coming from a MTBr who was riding rigid steel hardtail before Rock Shox RS1 front shock was introduced. (let that marinate how old I am), Here in Hawaii, eMTB is not the problem, it's the Suron, Super 8 type bikes and now the new crop of Electric Unicycles that starting to bring a new hate to the trails.
Thank you Jeff for stepping up and addressing the issue. Great way to break everything down and convert the electronic motor to HP which more people understand. I'm sure there will still be negative comments but you can't please everyone. I was just looking at website last night and many acoustic Santa Cruz bikes close to $10k, so sick of hearing how much E bikes cost. No way for you to do study but other crutch they use is E bikes cause more trail damage or wear.
So frustrated by my the USFS posting on EVERY single trailhead in my area that Ebikes and Pedal Assists are not allowed. It adds to the hatred and produces an unfair bias to EMTB's in general, but also for those who might really need the assistance of a Class 1 bike (like me, who has a medical limitation).
I have a bunch of bikes, 1 EMTB, 1 regular MTB, and numerous other sorts. I thinks anyone who rides trails can’t help loving what an EMTB can do with a skilled rider on top of it. Of course the most significant difference is going uphill and there are tech sections that I can clear on my turbo Levo and can’t get it done on my Stumpjumper. On flow trails I can catch air on the uphill, make more laps, more time working on my skills. The lighter MTB is not to be missed, but the monster EMBT is simply a blast…..again own both!!!! It is ignorance alone that believes the EMTB will destroy the earth. It is however terrifying for a purist MTBer, to witness a 65 year old rider tear up the side of a mountain while they hike a bike it for only one trip down.
![The Hidden Costs Of Owning An E-Bike - What Is The Real Cost Of EMTB? [REVISITED]](/img/n.gif)
Thanks to LMNT for sponsoring this video! Head to www.DrinkLMNT.com/Jeff to get your free sample pack with any purchase.
Thanks for doing this video/experiment, Jeff! I think it really helps to put use of emtbs into perspective, which can be tough on a topic that understandably triggers many people. Clearly emtbs are not motorbikes, though, and this video helps to dispell that. However there is also the need to ride responsibly and understand that everyone of us on the trail is an ambassador for the sport whether we realize it or not. Great job!
I am for E-bikes. But I am certain that E-bikes and electronic components in general are a stepping stone to dragging the bicycle kicking and screaming into the Internet of Things and Subscription plans. Many E-bikes already require mating to a phone and will not even operate without it.
What it all comes down to in the end is most people hate change, same thing happened when snowboarding started, I started snowboarding in 1987 and they weren't even letting snowboarders on the lifts now look.
I ride both regular and emtbs. The problem is not ebikes. The problem is a-holes. A-holes can be on regular MTBs too. Be a good human, be kind to your fellow trail users, and recognize you are not that important--certainly not any more important than others on the trail. Have fun, be nice, and be grateful that you are healthy enough to be outside riding bikes.
Bang on. It’s not the bike but the rider. That said, there are crowd issues in Squamish and North Vancouver on weekends with a lack of parking. There are pretty busy trails. Ebikes will make them more crowded. The odd ebike has been riding up downhill primary trails but there are people riding down climb trails. We need to think about a growing sport now. Nor wait until it’s too busy. Ebikes are here though. Not going away so we need to deal with the differences now.
100% truth Charles!
@@andyeunson270 Best way to deal with the addition of eMTBs is to join your local advocacy group- I'm a current member of both the NSMBA and SORCA!
While this is true, the e-bike allows more a-holes access. And it seems to make the a-holes think it's necessary to make new shortcuts on the climbs because they can't be bothered to slow down and follow the actual trail.
I agree 1000%. A-holes are the issue and it's not just on bikes, but hikers included. I do not have an EMTB yet but may in the future, as a MTBer I'm hyper vigilant when it comes to safety, I ring my bell around blind corners, yell 'heads up' and take my time (don't go crazy fast). I always yield to other riders and hikers even when I have the right of way - safety first! I want to be able to ride another day and wish everyone out there the same. Despite this effort, there are a small percentage that are oblivious to the importance of safety which jeopardizes trail access. Because of this, at my local trails I ride there is a division between riders and hikers where certain groups want to get rid of MTBers and are trying to pass legislation to make it happen.
This has been going on for years at my local trails but it could become a reality. In the upcoming election there are two opposing candidates: One is for inclusion, and the other want to regulate MTBs. Guess which one I'm voting for?...LOL.
In the recent past I've contributed to city meetings with suggestions on ensuring safety for all trail users. We'll have to wait and see what the future holds....
The rivalry / fear of EMTBS reminds me of the skiers vs snowboarders BS of the 90s. I’ve heard it all including how EMTBers don’t know how to ride and they’re destroying the trails. It all stems from ignorance and ego in my opinion. What’s important is that we have more people on the trails enjoying themselves, getting exercise and growing their appreciation for the outdoors. Great video Jeff.
What's weird is the only reason I'm considering a emtb is cuz I mtb so much. I would assume most people get into regular mtb before they spend thousands on an emtb
At 62 I wouldn’t be riding near as much if I didn’t ride a class 1. It levels me out with the emtb riders younger then me, I can keep up with them going up hill and I find the downhill I am way more planted so I am right on their bumper. 300,000 vertical last year and 3/4 of that this year almost all on local trails. Keeps me outside and it still keeps my heart rate up so win win for me. I understand the haters, (I was the same regarding snowboarders because they were wrecking all the mogul runs) but eventually people come around.
Glad you're enjoying your bike, Lance! 300k vert sounds massive!
Just got one at 67 I am having a blast 💥 there will always be haters their loss😂
I have a pedal MTB and an eMTB... Both Rocky Mountains and over the last year I have slowly been riding the PowerPlay more than my Thunderbolt. Which is better for the forest access roads and the environment? Ride up on your eMTB, or put a few bikes in the back of a pick-up and drive up. I also find I use my PowerPlay more as a short distance commuter rather than take my car.
@@PL-fh8cz Ride on! I am looking at the RM ebikes test rode one, I was impressed.
Love both my Yeti, different rides, that’s it ;) EMTB is more bang for the ride time
great video 🙌 I have both bikes I use my Enduro bike for DH, park and shuttle days and use my E bike on pedal days. my experience are same as your tests but much more extreme. Im much faster climbing up on the E bike (3-4 X) and much slower going down on the E bike. I have no idea why people would think that E bikes go faster going DH. The main benefits with the E bike for me is to get the climbs done quicker with less energy so you can get it in many more laps. E bikes are fun. I think most haters haven't tried riding E bikes and that's why they don't understand them.
My assumptions is that a ebike is faster, because the motor allows you to pack on more DH focused parts and still ride up hill. IE you can run chunky tires and a huge travel and still make it up the trail? Is this false though?
@@christopherstirrup5318 no not false. I have set my ebike up as s downhill bike, 190mm travel front with 180mm back, 63 degree head tube angle, saint brakes etc. use it for shuttle runs, I get so many more runs now
we hate them because we don't have an extra $10k laying around. 😉
Strangely enough my 2022 scott ransom eride cost less than my 2017 ibis hd-3. I love both bikes. Ultimately I like having fun. And my scott ransom eride allows me to have far more fun in a day. And I can do it again the next day. And the next day and so on.
Whether riding mountain trails or commuting, I view e bikes as solving mobility issues for riders with disabilities and thus should be encouraged.
Reluctantly bought a Fuel EXe after battling some lingering medical issues. Brought the joy back to riding. I've ridden it 8 times in the 10 days since I bought it. Best purchase ever. Hate if you want, I'm having a blast!
Yes I bought the same bike 6 weeks ago and have logged 150 miles.
I haven't met someone who has actually ridden or owned one that hates them. They are ALWAYS people who haven't or won't try one.
There is not much we can do to tweak bikes any further at this time, so now manufacturers are going to do anything to keep revenues up. Salesman in Bentonville said they are selling 3-1 E-bikes. It is difficult to convince me that these e-bikes will last as long as a regular bike. Then you have a >5,000 frame worth nothing when there are no replacement parts. 8-12k is out of reach for most people. I have no problems with medical or handicap riders. Riding is different for everyone. On a traditional bike, we earn our downhill. It keeps us in shape. I am 50. I ride to challenge myself. I know if I maintain my Ripley, it will last me as long as I want to ride it.
I got quadriceps tendonitis from my regular MTB. I could only ride 1 day and then I had to take 2-3 days off to heal. I got an e-MTB (Trek Rail) and I ride everyday now with no tendonitis. And hey, riding into uphill berms with some speed on an e-MTB is a kick!
Glad you're recovering!
The confidence and ability Emtb give riders levels the playing field a little, which some people don't like... Some people just need speed/momentum to get through technical sections or a little help on long uphills and a little push on switchbacks. EMTBs provide that push which results in confidence which adds to our ability!!! CHEERS 🙂
I’m in the Midwest and ride a Ripley and a Rise. Half of our trails are old school tight technical XC trails and the ebike give you basically zero advantage. I still get passed by the XC guys!
The biggest difference is that it takes me about half the time to ride out to the trails which is a huge win, as we are a one-car family.
At 67 and 40 years of mountain biking, 30 in Whistler, I have found I can again uphill again. Using a lightweight bike “ I.E.the Rise” the downhill‘s are definitely fun and the low centre of gravity has got me riding at a higher level again. Jealousy is the usual reaction here in BC when you have a dope e-bike.
Moved to EMTB and agree with all of your points. I will admit, however, on bi-directional trails, the increased speed that we EMTB'ers can climb does increase the close rate between uphill and downhill riders. This can increase chances of a collision, especially on blind curves. I use a bell up and down in the blinds and use caution but the larger contributing factor in these collision situations is often riders (both EMTB and MTB) wearing earbuds listening to loud music not able to use their hearing to alert them. On bi-directional trails, I think we EMTBers need to exercise extra caution on the uphills and everyone (imo) should take full advantage of their hearing to help alert them to oncoming traffic a bit sooner.
Jeff Great Video. I think that we should share this video with all land managers to show the difference between the bikes. I had a land manager at Demo forest in CA tell me the reason they don't want E Bikes on their trails is that E bikes go 30MPH up hill. After a long conversation with her she let me know that her husband had a heart attack trying to keep up with their son. At 63 I cant push myself to climb as fast as my 21 year old son and by having some help from my E Bike we can share Mt Biking together. I agree that we all need to join the fight for more trail access. We recently had a protest at a local riding area where 12 of us got a ticket for riding on an I closed trail. By voicing our concerns they are now in the process of opening up some more trails to Mt Bikes. Keep fighting for our right to ride.
Reason #4: Gatekeeping due to a superiority complex shared by many MTBers who have "ridden for years". They'll hide behind anecdotes of an eBiker who ran into a hiker because they were going too fast, or some other generic reason all the while discounting there are just as many inconsiderate analog MTBers.
That is one of the the best posts about this theme. There is really no reason to hate e-bikers just because they ride a pedal assist bike. In every group there are dudes, that don t understand, what it takes to build a trail, taking care of it, that technical skills are needed for riding uphill and downhill etc. We can all ride and help each other, to have better and better trails. Cheers from eMTB Slovenia!
What it all comes down to in the end is most people hate change, same thing happened when snowboarding started, I started snowboarding in 1987 and they weren't even letting snowboarders on the lifts then, now look.
I'm not afraid of eMTB but as a person who rides both bicycles and motorcycles, which have been banned from trails all over the place, I want clarity about what constitutes a 'motorized cycle'. Locally, Galbraith trails started as motorcycle trails, and it was only because the trails already existed that mountain bikers started riding there. 31 years ago when I started riding here, motorcycles and bicycles shared those trails. Not any longer. So, if a motorcycle is banned, then other motorized cycles should also be banned. If motorized cycles are allowed, then allow motorcycles.
It is also super annoying to have someone come up behind you on an ebike on a climb and have them itching to pass you because they have electric assist. I guess I do embrace certain aspects of the Puritan ethic, if you're on a mountain bike trail, use your own energy. If you're poaching a trail on which eMTBs are banned, then back the #@$! off and pass somewhere where the person on an allowed bike doesn't have to get out of your way. And if you're poaching it on a motorcycle...
Mountain biking has been monumental for my well being, both physically and mentally. This has been especially true during COVID, when getting out on the trail to clear my head became essential. Then last year, I tore my ACL and lateral meniscus in a crash, and got a post op DVT to complicate recovery even further. Suffice to say, that weekly blissful trail therapy was taken away in an instant, and I was devastated.
After a slow healing process, I was able to get back on my bike eventually, but the knee pain and muscle atrophy were real, and limited my riding in performance and enjoyment. With rehab taking a lot longer than I expected, I finally decided to pick up a Kenevo SL on a black friday sale. I didn't want a full powered ebike, but something that would handle more like an acoustic bike, with just a little pedal assist (35Nm) to help lighten the load.
I think ebikes have a place in modern MTB, whether it's to compensate for age, injury, fitness, or just increase your stoke. But we all need to remember to share the trails and be respectful to each other, especially if you have an ebike. Tread lightly, be kind, and pass with care, just like you should be doing already on your acoustic bike.
I am a 50+ and just getting back into biking in general (car free) and mountain biking specifically to help my 7 year old son enjoy the sport. EMTB has allowed all of this for our family. We have taken a series of mountain biking courses to learn how to ride with specific interest in not damaging trail infrastructure and learning the etiquette of the sport. We have joined the local mountain bike trail advocacy network and helped with trail maitenace. We get out more often with my EMTB and when my son gets tired I can tow him wherever. Our mental and physical health is better because we are out way more often. "Daddy are you riding in Eco mode?". Yup I am. This whole conversation reminds me of when snowboarding appeared on the scene. Look at what that has done for the industry. EMTB is doing the same. This has changed our lives.
Awesome Nels!
Try skiing and snowmobile that’s the comparison
Try skiing and snowmobile that’s the comparison
@@stevesanders2166 Steve that comparison is silly. Skiing to Snowmobileing... That is emtb to a 400cc motocross bike. completely different sport.
This steve dude two comments above mine, perfectly reflects the average intelligence from people crying and flaming over emtb's
Just dumb af 😂
I own a stumpjumper Evo and a Levo. I loved the Evo so much that I bought it's eMTB doppelganger.
I have an extremely busy life. I work 12 hour night shifts in a hospital as an RN. Sometimes I work 5 shifts in a row. I love that I can wake up and hit the trail for an hour and cover the same amount of ground I would in 2 hours and I don't exhaust myself. It's still a great aerobic workout and I burn about 600 calories. And I can hit my next shift in the hospital feeling the stoke from getting out when I never would have considered doing that on my analog bike.
Still love ripping my Evo. Always take my analog bike when I'm riding with friends. Funny thing is I'm more fit since I bought an eMTB because I'm getting more rides in and I'm throwing around a heavier bike when I'm going DH.
I think the most controversial part of this video are those jorts. 😂
Seriously though, nice work Jeff! This comparisons is a long time coming.
Was gonna say... came for the controversy, stayed for the (insanely tight) acid-wash jorts. Daddy K-W.
good, I wasn't the only one ball-gazing the whole time....
@@edgerat lol poor Jeff. We love you buddy.
beard ? ;-)
hey look its the guy who's whole personality is his mustache. #influencer
Hello Jeff! I’d like to tell my experience as a rider from Central Italy who has recently switched to Ebike (Giant Reign E+2 2022) after several years riding a regular one.
I am 35 years old, quite in shape (I regularly exercise twice a week) but with a little time available for MTB since 5 days out of 7 I am at work while the remaining spare time is shared between my family (mainly wife and a 10 months old son) and hobbies. This leaves me very little time for pedal training which is fundamental for dealing with the trails of my area, where very often you have to spare hours on hard climbing to enjoy a few tens of minutes of downhills. Furthermore, considering how much certain trails are rocky, steep and technical it becomes quite risky to hit them with the lack of concentration necessary to avoid ruinous falls, that in case of injuries would be a real “tragedy” for someone with so many commitments as I am.
Before being a father I had way more free time to train with my muscular bike (this is the way we call regular bikes in Italy) and so, despite I always needed much time to reach trails I could at least hit them with the necessary lucidity. But now things are changed and the last rides I attended before the switch, have all been tiring and dangerous. So, together with a riding bud, we decided to witch to Ebikes and I am not regretting this choice at all! I can speed up the uphills and consequently ride more trails in the same time I previously needed for just one or two runs, while maintaining the necessary level of attention to enjoy the downhill without tiring-related-risks! So more fun, less fear and a better time management.
It is also important to point out two main things….
First thing, it is not true that riding Ebike is not really training, since power must be managed properly if you want to ride more ant this requires more effort from the rider. Second, I want to reassure all those concerned about possible implications of the extra weight on riding performances; Ebikes geometry is studied to minimize the effects of this weight and you would at worst notice a bit more of fatigue during the first riding experiences together with the need of anticipating a bit the braking when dealing with curves.
I hope telling my experience and reasons is going to be interesting and useful for you and your followers.
PS. Forgive possible mistakes and typos but I wrote fast from my phone while pausing between tasks.
Mate I took up ebike downhill and enduro riding at 60, now 64. I’m doing stuff my son was doing on his bike as a kid, never thought I could do these things! Great sport, heaps of new friends , I ride with my son also, he is now 24. A great thing to keep in touch with a son and daughter. Make sure you share your passion with your kids.
Thanks Jeff for this great video highlighting that both classes at the end of the day are MTBs. Where I ride, on Vancouver Island, we have eMTBs out on the trail and I've never seen any issues or heard from my riding buddies of eMTB specific issues. The key to me is this is a lifestyle as much as a sport, and if having an eMTB allows someone to continue in that lifestyle or join it then so much the better. Less than 1HP isn't going to make any impact on the trails or our experiences. And let's remember that even all acoustic bikes aren't the same nor is the fitness level of every rider. There are faster riders you'll need to accommodate whether they are on an ebike or not. Let's just support our trail builders, support each other regardless of what type of bike we are on, and enjoy being out in the forest doing one of the most enjoyable things (I believe) there is to do.
I think a lot of it is riders just don't want any more people on the trails. They Should look at it as an opportunity to expand trails for everyone, and I ride an acoustic bike literally 95%+ of the time for the reasons you gave
Yay, if there is more demand for mtb trails, maybe it'll lead to more being built. This scarcity mentality is annoying.
@@spunkush depends on the culture of the place. Truckee has dedicated emtb trails in certain places now. In moab mtbs share a lot of trails with motos and jeeps. In Santa Cruz everything is volunteer maintained with illegal/access issues and not too much funding. The problem is if e-bikes turn every trail network into a bike park, who’s gunna be the metaphorical bike park maintenance crew?
You definitely cannot blame that on e-Bikes . I have been riding mountain bikes in Golden, Colorado on the exact same trails for almost 40 years. The sport blew up 15 years ago and continues to gain popularity so it’s definitely not Ebikes to blame. I used to be the only on some of the busiest trails around and now you will see literally 50 riders or more on the same trails
It’s a great sport people love it and the marketing in the industry doesn’t great job making people think every year they need a new mountain bike that’s adding more riders into the pool
We all need to work together to keep the trails open
If we go against each other eventually, the the land management committees just give up and close everything
There are literally hundreds of miles of trails on the front range where you used to be able to ride a bike and now they are closed because they just simply couldn’t make a decision to appease everybody
We just purchased Two Orbea Rise (an h30 and an h15) Saturday afternoon, just after watching your review. Not saying your review sold us on them...but it certainly didn't hurt! We actually rented Rise h30s in Bentonville for a day over the summer. That's pretty much what sold us.
Congrats on the new bikes! Those things are way fun!
The best reason for eMTBs is conservation of energy. I’m 66 and the eMTB allows me to do group rides with younger stronger riders without them having to wait for me. It also means I can still do those longer rides of my youth.
I don’t always ride my eMTB but when I do I usually have more energy left to ride further.
Just furthering the narrative that ebikes are for seniors. One of the reasons I won't be getting one anytime soon.
As a 24 year old, I like having to wait for people so I can also catch my breath too haha
@@Ryuk1138 That reason being ageism.
That’s basically it , I feel young again @ 56 feels 16 😂
You should ride with people closer to your on abilities
All great points. Hopefully we can use this new type of mountain biker to help with the trails through giving back to local mtb groups and dig days. You made this point as well and I never thought of that. Thanks for the great video.
Thanks for watching!
Things like the Surron being called "electric bikes" is an issue as well. I love pedal assist emtbs and how they get people on trails, but I've spoken with many people who think of throttles and going 20+mph all the time when I say "ebike."
Surron has electric dirt bikes. We are talking about pedal assisted mountain bikes.
@@legyvanmaster I know. I'm saying the general public doesn't always know the difference which is a problem for getting pedal assisted bikes allowed on trails. This confusion is in part because surron calls their dirt bike an "electric bike" on their website.
I just finished a cycle, started with analog and then switched to emtb, now I am back at analog. At the end of the day, at least I am riding for fun based on the constraints I have (time, energy level, skill set). There is no bad or good choices, I always asked myself at end of each ride, did I have fun, was I nice to the hikers/bikes on the trail, how can I improve the next ride.
This seems entirely lost in the arguments. MTB riding is recreation, what others do does not affect your choices. Have fun riding and support others having fun too, even if they do it differently. What is important is that both MTB and eMTB be targeted to the same usage. As long as they are, access is a contrived problem to be opposed.
Also, my reasoning for rejecting e-bikes when they first came out was the fact that those riding them were not putting in the same "effort" I was. I didn't see it as fair. But I was mistaking. I was wrong. I rode for fitness and now I ride for fun.
Last summer on Fromme there was a woman ripping up Mountain Highway on a e-bike doing laps of Bobsled and shooting, " on your lef"t as she stormed past. I dropped in about 30 seconds behind her on Bobsled and was practically running over her back tire pretty quickly; so I politely called out and asked to squeeze by. While passing I said, "now isn't that nicer than shouting on your left?"
@@briannyob7799 Wow great story! I can't believe folks think they don't need to be friendly to others on the trail- or in the world!
Great points Daniel! And who's to say that fitness and fun aren't exclusive?!
They didn´t suffer enough..
@@briannyob7799 To paraphrase, you got passed on a trail so you chased the rider down to pass back, and when you did you made a snide comment. Most of us have experienced your behavior, we just don't admire it.
If you're gonna complain about "on your left", you're taking on a huge part of cycling culture. It is intended as a courtesy even if it wounds your pride.
I have both an ebike and a pedal bike. Climbing and XC is significantly better with a motor, and going for an extended ride is much easier.
Downhill on the pedal bike is massively better than the ebike. The ebike is heavy, hard to get off of the ground, hard to jump, hard to toss around, harder to change directions, etc. I don't go faster downhill on my ebike because I don't pedal downhill (does anyone? Lol). I ride my regular bike most days.
I got into mountain biking because of the ebike that I bought first. I probably wouldn't have gotten a regular bike and subsequently donated time and money to the local mountain biking organizations without having gotten the ebike first. It allowed me to ease myself into the sport and get myself into better riding shape while learning how to control a bike on easy trails.
E-bike hate just feels like pointless gatekeeping to me, but I do understand the fear of losing land access. There needs to be more advocacy regarding e-mtb and the fact that they are most definitely NOT motorcycles. The weight difference is negligible (what if I just gained 20 pounds?). The power difference is negligible (what if I just cranked harder on the pedals?).
"...but I do understand the fear of losing land access."
Except this fear is caused by MTB riders themselves. They stoke it, and their organizations lobby, and in some cases control, access.
Decades ago, assisted cycling was anticipated and laws were created in advance. Then eBikes became a thing, MTB advocacy groups started knee-jerk reactions promoting trail access bans and PeopleForBikes sprang up to redo, in an inferior manner, work that had already been over much of the US. The current class 1-3 stuff is worse than what we had before.
The industry has always had a healthy and responsible approach to the development of eBikes, it is conventional cyclists that are the problem. The fear of losing access is created by cyclists in order to cause loss of access to eBikes, access that was intended to be provided from the very start.
The land access loss argument is nonsense. Here in CO Jefferson Co. just west of Denver has had open access to EMTBs for a few years on all open space trails. The bigger issues were user conflicts regardless of mode and those were resolved by advocacy and trail changes, not banning users.
Good video. I’ve never tried an E-MTB. I’m always surprised by the vitriol on the internet around this topic.
Thanks man! Yea it's ridiculous!
Ride one! They're so much fun and a great compliment to a pedally bike. Nothing like banging out 30+ miles and over 4k ft. AFTER work on a Tuesday. 😃
@@snigs5T5 I live in south Texas. I wish I had that much vert anywhere close!
My issue with eMTB is related to trail etiquette and riding direction. In Boise, ID we have very few directional trails, but many that are traditionally ridden in one direction (or loops). It's most annoying when I'm downhilling a sweet section of trail, only to stop and let uphill rider pedal past me and realize it is an eBike. Before eMTB existed it was a rare occasion to see people pedaling UP steep or knarly sections. And if they were, kudos! eBikes are still technically illegal on most of our trails, mind you, so my rule following nature doesn't like seeing them.
I am okay with allowing them on MTB trails, but only once directional routes are established. Maybe I just miss the days of less busy trails and clean runs on a loop without losing my flow! 🙂
I live at the bottom of Hulls Gulch, ride those trails multiple t8mes a week, and tend to only ride Hulls itself on DH days. I never see e-bikes going DH, but always see them climbing up sidewinder and other trails like that. Last summer there were two ladies riding Surrons (e-motos) on 3 Bears. That was ridiculous.
@@BBurton1231 There’s a huge difference between an eMTB and a Suron. HUGE difference. It’s ignorance that’s causing this issue not the ebikers. Suron are class 3s that borders on being a dirt bike and don’t belong on the trail, eMTBs however do belong on the trails and yes they do tend to ride uphill because eMTBs make climbs fun 😎
So basically your issue is that you think you own the trails and that they're only for you and the way you want to ride them. I think your issues run deeper than ebikes.
@@snigs5T5 yeah just say fuck it and don't yield to people climbing the trail. DH for life! The idea of yielding for someone climbing is meant for non motorized bikes. If you have an emtb get out of the way for people who are descending.
@@lokmtb8503 please don't ever come to CO. We don't want your ilk here.
Thank you so much for this video!!! You did a great job of explaining the difference. I’ve been riding both e-bike and analog for about a year. The paranoia around class 1 e-bikes is redicilous and egotistical. Cheers all!
Just got an e-bike and tow my two sons up very long climbs. What would be a one and done ride has become sessionable. We ride longer, practice more, have more fun, while grinding less. And counterintuitively get MORE exercise because we don't bonk as quickly.
A lot of good sense in this video!! Most of the vigorous eMTB haters seem to soften dramatically after they actually try one. It just makes for waaaaay more fun on a bike. People should still be kind and considerate either way (but sometimes aren't, Lol).
Nice to see some level headed commentary on this subject. I recently recorded a video also looking at how much faster is an ebike over a regular bike (I’m still editing it). I found that trail dynamics really comes into play. While the ebike felt much faster the overall time on an 8 mile, 1,000 ft course was not that great. I will post the results next week.
I hated e-bikes until I went to a Specialized demo day. Five minutes into the first ride, I was 100% converted.
WORD
great vid. much of mine climbing is fireroad and i can blaze way faster on the ebike. just did a 4 day trip with 20,000 vert(each ride 5000 down in one shot). couldn't come close to that on my reg bike.
Here in NZ we don't have the access issues so less hate generally, a point you missed is the extra riding you do on the e, what was a 15-20k steam bike ride is now a 30-40k e bike ride . . 2 or 3 times as often.
Great video. I am 65 years old and ride with other friends in their 70s and eMTBs make this possible. I think that is is fine to have Class 1 ebikes on the trails because you still have to pedal to get the e-assist. I don't think Class 2 bikes with a throttle would be good as then I think it would be easier to rip up the trail on climbs by just twisting the throttle to blast out of turns instead of having to pedal. eMTB are all about doing the tough climbs without maxing out my heart rate constantly. That said, it is still easy to get very tired even on an ebike.
The accessibility of e-bikes is consistently understated. Here in Alberta, I see plenty of older and differently able people on trails that likely would never have a chance to enjoy them without e-bikes. These devices democratize mountain biking. Once the prices come down, things will get even better for more people. I once saw a guy on a sports wheelchair with a fat bike fashioned to the front riding gravel. It was awesome!
I got my first emtb a month ago, and thought this day would never happen. When I rode one for a full day, I felt in love for how much more I could ride. I have both now and we all live happy together :), there is room for a BMX....maybe..
Good on ya for doing some tests and showing off the differences between the two styles!
Emtb is the best thing that happened to mountain biking. I work in kitchen, so a lot working hours standing. With analog bike I rode like 1-2 times per few weeks, with e bike I ride each 2-3days having way more fun not being exhausted. Isn't mountainbiking is about having fun? No need to be jealous or rage on emtbs, just have fun with what you have.
Im in Scotland and eebs are totally acceptable here.
Im a touch slower on the downhill with the ebike from having to brake earlier but im not bothered since i can get more laps in. Also there is basically no lift access riding anywhere near me so that could be why ebikes are getting pretty popular around here. But when i jump on my evil wreckoning it feels way more lively.
Thanks jeff for shining a light on this issue. Imo the ebike paranoia is a replay of the " crisis " over snowboards at ski areas . Hand wringing. Cheers.
You make some valid points- but I feel you're missing on a few key ones also.
I'd argue the risk/fear is not in the tool itself, but the way it is used:
- I've personally had some scary close calls with ebikers going up sketchy downhill sections for the sake of a good challenge. Inches from severe injury.
- e-bikes are often a sort of "gateway drug" attracting new riders, which in itself is awesome. However, for many, their skill and trail etiquette are still unrefined... which leads some risky situations on the trail (for both themselves and other riders)
- Insurance - I'd argue that the behavior I mentioned will lead to more injuries, which will no go unnnoticed by insurance companies. Those companies won't draw a fine line whether you've got a motor or not - we'll all be guilty by association, and end up paying much more on insurance, which is already the most significant (and often prohibitive) cost for event and race organizers.
- In my neck of the woods, anything with a motor attracts people who are... how shall I say it... not as well mannered as your typical mountain biker. The percentage of douchebags on ebikes is significantly higher - and it shows in their behavior on the trail, the amount of garbage they leave behind, and their respect for the trails themselves.
I think all those are legitimate concerns and hardly talked about. You can't bring those up without being labelled as a "typical luddite eBike hater".
well you have a point there. on the downhill sections if it isnt marked downhill only they are technically in the right. the issue is more the people than the bike.
@@SimonBauer7 Thanks. I'll just add -
A) many trails (if not most) in many countries are not fully marked.
B) common sense and self preservation clearly puts them in the "wrong" side of the equation. No behavior which puts others at serious risk is "right".
C) "technically right" is copping out - 99% of the time those sections are CLEARLY downhill trails, marking or not. Besides, I get that many riders enjoy going up technical sections, but most riders (incl. ebikers) prioritize descending and we cant make trails symmetric all of a sudden.
D) Where I live, trail markings have little meaning. They're just a general recommendation, but with no real enforcement to back it up. It's all about etiquette and norm - and the norm is shifting. At some point it will end very badly, i'm afraid.
Wow 😂 you really put a lot of effort into this explanation. It doesn’t matter where you live or what you’re doing, you gonna find stupid people. That doesn’t mean we should ban certain items like… cars, because people don’t drive them properly and cause problems for everyone else. Just stop and educate that poor d-bag. Take advantage of the situation and educate people (calmly I might add🙃).
Easily the best unbiased comparison of Amish and eBike done. Excellent video!!!
I don't believe it is only about speed. Additional factors to consider should be the additional weight of the e-mtb and the ability to ride more laps for the same amount of human effort. Like it or not these two additional factors will play a role in trail wear. If everyone used common sense when operating a e-mtb I doubt we would have videos like this, alas the few likely ruin it for the many
Exactly. Not to mention the increase in torque causing wheel spin when going up steep hills. We will see more rutted out trails in the future for sure
You will probably have a significantly larger community willing to maintain and build new trails too.
The only problem i can see with the heavier ebikes is on popular trails where suddenly the tree roots have a bad case of gingivitis some softer trails cant handle too much traffic
That is valid point but I think we need to be careful with that argument. The solution to reducing trail wear is to close them to all bikes. All bikes wear a trail. Heavier riders on acoustic bikes also wear a trail more than lighter riders. I am not sure that the argument to ban eMTBs purely on "trail wear concerns" would not backfire and limit access to all mountain bikes.
You seriously think an extra 15 pounds out of 200 ish with rider is going to make that difference.
When I was big into 4wd there was a trail system that decided that big tires were causing more erosion on the trails. So their solution was to limit the tire size that could legally use those trails. This limit ended up doing more damage in one year than they saw in the entire history of the trail system. The key is to have regular trail days and address actual condition issues of the trail to limit the damage that it is prone to without sanitizing the trail.
I dont own an e-bike but one day i’m gonne buy one. Im riding 100km in a week gravel/enduro mtb so my physique is good. But as i’m getting older and every day working in construction. My body /joints are hurting more and more. I just want to go on those 40k saturday enduro mtb rides(with 1500 up/down meters) and not feeling my body for like 2 or 3 days after the ride. The people i know with an e-bike bought them for the same reasons. Its not to going fast but just to help them for the climbing…
Imagine this, if you can put your 60-65 yr (none sporty) old dad with you on a day of riding an ebike, and share your passion with him. Isn’t that the greatest gift ever?
I ride only cross country, no downhill in Florida. Don’t like it when an ebiker wants to pass on on tight single track trail. Whats the point of an eMountian bike? Larry
I have a full power e-bike and it's so much worth it to sacrifice a little bit of speed and mobility just so uphills are fun instead of a pain.
Great video Jeff! I see an additional 2 reasons why folks don't like e bikes. 1) They can't afford one (or don't want to afford one).
2) Are paranoid their strava dominance will disappear uphil.
It will take an ADA lawsuit is all, preventing folks with disabilities from accessing trails because of no pedal assist allowed will result in change eventually. A lot of stuff in the USA is driven by lawsuits.
United States Forest Service hurry up and change your management plans to allow pedal assist.
I just got my first e bike which is the turbo levo and I absolutely love it.
Honestly I think I fall into the offended because I worked hard to get here category. Also I enjoy climbing, so I am typically seen as the weirdo. I am not against people riding E-bikes, just on the north shore there are alot of people speeding by at top speed with no disregard to others. If one of those guys runs a hiker off the trail, I can see us losing access for all. Oh, and don't get me started on the non pedal assist commuter bikes that people trick themselves I to thinking they are exercising and don't even pedal haha.
Thanks for addressing the e-mtb hate issue. As a 35+ year mountain biker and recent e-mtb'er I have come to a similar POV, especially relate to your first point. It took mountain bikers a long time to gain trail access and there are a lot of emotional arguments on both sides of the trail access debate. But as it turns out dangerous and destructive rail usage is not about the bike, it's about the rider, the hiker, and the equestrian rider's behaviors. I hope e-bikes in the US become better understood and gain access much like they have in Europe, because they are great fun and enable many of us older riders to continue riding.
In Idaho dirt bikes are required to have an annual $12 ORV sticker to help pay for trail maintenance. Make the same requirement for EMTB that goes to local trails and boom, EMTB is welcome with open arms.
Most people complaining about e-bikes have never ridden both on the same trails, but all they significantly help on, as you demonstrated, are non-technical climbs. Between the Specialized e-bike I borrowed, my hardtail e-bike I built, and my Marin full suspension, the latter is the faster and the most fun on a descent. So long as e-bikes are class conforming, there is nothing at all to fear with them.
Salty puritans.
I have an HD3 and a Trance-E. The Ibis is far quicker down the trail than the Trance, save for when there is any up sections where you need a few pedal strokes. On tech uphill climbs though I'd say its about even with each offering different advantages depending on terrain. Most days the bike chosen depends on the trails we are going to.
I have demoed the SC Heckler and the newest Spec Levo. I like my analog bikes, but damn the eebs are fun. Climbing rocks feels like the dirt bike but so much lighter. Unless you're intentionally trying to pedal out some burnouts the eebs are not anymore damaging to trails. I don't mind seeing them on my local trails as the owners are pretty limited to where they can ride and most people are unaware that they even have a motor.
My next full sus will definitely be an ebike. I'm suffering from shoulder damage (torn tendon) & repeated aggravation of the sciatic nerve down my left leg.
In both cases it's due to biking. Silly crash busted my shoulder & my spine has a clump of nerve scaring in the docs opinion caused by repeated small impacts & crashes on the bike.
My fitness has been hugely impacted by these injuries, recently particularly the sciatica. If I'm going to keep biking I'm going to need an ebike.
Also I live in Northern Scotland. There are no restrictions & no issues with ebikes here. Least none I've ever heard of.
Class 1 pedal assist bikes should be allowed anywhere mountain bikes are, the throttle bikes are a different story. I've been riding for 30 years but at 65 my knees are not what they used to be, many new bikes like my Trek Fuel EXe are super quiet, most people have no idea it's an ebike.
I don't understand the concern about ebikes with a throttle. All ebikes have a motor. Whats the difference if your foot or thumb is activating that motor? Ive ridden ebikes with throttle offroad and they are actually perfect because you can put them in the lowest power mode and then just tap the throttle when you need boost to get over a rocky uphill section. Guys without a throttle just have the more awkward situation of having to take their bike out of eco and put it into turbo mode. The throttle is just a quicker temporary way into boost or turbo mode.
@@currentsupply They have class 2 and 3 ebikes now with a throttle that are as fast as some motorcycles, like the Surron those have no place on MTB trails in my opinion.
@@rjahn3000 A class 1 Specialized emtb will be faster on a mountain bike trail than most class 3 ebikes with a throttle. And a MTB without a motor will be faster than any ebike at top speed. But yeah a Surron is an electric motorcycle, not an electic bicycle.
Im getting older 60+ and recently not a strong as I used to be. Not being as strong and lamenting getting older, the eMTB has become a real choice for me. I still have an 2022 EPIC EVO cause its a blast but I bought a used Orbea Rise 2021-22 for an event our group did and am struggling to let it go again. The Rise can be used power OFF and ride with the analogues in our bunch or power ON and chase the eMTBs when they join in. Some of the guys have full fat eMTBs and do lament the weight, however the Rise at 19kg, with pedals, is not too heavy to load into the van and agile enough on the trails that I am struggling to let it go. Ive taken the Assagai 2.5 off the front and installed Mountain Kings 2.3 front and rear, just the front dropped 600gms in tyre weight and made the Rise more agile. I plan to install some ELITE wheels 1450gr to get the last of the weight off that I will afford. Get the Rise down to about 18.3kg. I find that I go exploring on the Rise, where I wouldnt on the EVO, having that motor to climb the unclimbable fire roads and rough scrub just invites trail blazing and looking around.
I have both. If I was doing nothing but downhill my Meta SX would be the choice every time. To me the pedal bike is simply better going downhill. Better handling, easier to throw around and more fun in general. The additional 15lbs on the eMTB is much more cumbersome, it doesn't turn, jump or brake as well. In my experience trying to push the eMTB as fast as the pedal bike is a recipe for disaster.
But I can go way further, in way less time on the eMTB. And days are getting shorter.
I ride 4-5 times/week and split time between both of them pretty evenly. Sometimes I enjoy the cathartic nature of pedaling uphill, if I have the time.
Keep up the good work Jeff!
I dont want to be the caused of Forrest fire. Lithium based batteries are very very volatile! Do some research about, all you need is little moisture get inside and you're done.
A class 1 emtb is not the issue. It’s the risk of losing access to trails because of anything with a throttle on trails they don’t belong on. And there are plenty of assholes disregarding the rules. Though I have my own bias where I don’t feel they put in the same effort, I also believe they cost way too much and the rate of improvement is so high I see no reason to invest in one until I’m old enough to need one.
Ebikes are awesome and it is not about how much faster you can go but is more about how much more ground i can cover in the same amount of time, between family and work my time to ride was less and less, I decided to get an ebike and now can do anywhere from 16 to 20 miles in way less time that I was spending in my regular pedal bike, I still love my regular bike but at my age and the limited time I have to ride Ebike makes way more sense.
How much more ground you can cover in the same amount of time IS going faster
@@joes95rx7 you are right I should mentioned that going faster downhill, in my case I cover more ground climbing. 👍
One of the biggest issues I see with emtbs (I ride an emtb) is the misunderstanding of a difference of the different classes and the difference between an emtb and e-dirtbike who also like to call themselves ebikes. There is a world of difference between a class 1 emtb and a surron. Even guys I've biked with for 20+ years don't want to learn the difference. (they also were against wider tires years ago and now swear by them)
great point!
I always called them Emotos.
I thought it was kind of a universally known thing. Guess I was wrong lol.
63 years old here and emtbs cheat my strava times on runs that are littered with short, punchy, steep, and difficult climbs found between technical and gnarly downs. New category perhaps?!
Tried an early e-bike and this thing had a full on throttle, not just assist. It could hit close to 20mph without rider input. Using higher gears and pedaling, I could easily hit 40 mph. I think if you would have shifted, you could have made it up the climb faster. There’s riders here hitting jumps going uphill.
You should try one with a 70NM at 50% power on level 1. Make sure it is a 60-80lb bike
We just jealous because we can’t affor…. I mean because they ruin trails.
LOL
Since most of the comments are about ebikes I'm going to add a comment about Jeff's jorts. Jeff is bringing jorts back ladies and gentlemen! Looking good 😁
I'd like to first emphasize the fact that I am brand new to mountain biking, so I have little knowledge on things like etiquette etc.
I am, however, a little confused about this debate because I kind of see E-bikes as a form of pedaling assistance, that opens more opportunity to the rider.
Kind of like an expansion on gears.
For instance, is it poor etiquette to use a 1x12 when there are Singlespeed bikes?
Again, I'm new to all of this so I may be missing some key info, such as whether the debate is instigated from a mechanical/design standpoint, or a rider standpoint.
Those darn cheaters are having more fun than me!
Been riding dirt bikes for years and mtb for fitness so a e-mtb is a no brainer for me. I'm holding off buying a e-mtb due to the myriad of choices and how quick they advance. I keep checking out your videos to see what e-mtb you are riding. I have lost riding opportunity (both dirt bike and mtb) to development and from the mentality if you don't walk, hike or ride a horse you are not allowed. I moved out of Cali and it is pretty amazing to ride, on dirt roads and trails, used by walkers, hikers, dogs on leashes, 4X4's, ATV's, side X sides, dirt bikes, mtb's and e-mtb's.
At age 61 and never really been a big cardio guy, I love my Santa Cruz Hightower for tight up and down cross country trails, but seriously considering an ebike for those days where I go with a group of guys to ride on a mtn bike designated riding area where there are big climbs before the fun stuff. Just because I can’t keep up on the climbs and find myself trashed by the time I get to the top. So, I’d use the ebike to get up the hills easier, or same effort/2x or 3x as far a climb vs the analog bike. Not there yet, kinda waiting for the new ebikes as the tech seems to be improving so quickly
Read an article on Singletracks about ebikes in the USA, apparently you guys have had them within regulation since 2002 - way before eMTB was even a feature on the bike landscape. I am in the UK, owned a couple of hardtail eMTB's over the years (don't currently) and ridden a few full fat versions and all are brilliant - going to a trail centre here, even a bike park with uplift and you will see more than regular bikes. We are restricted to 250w and 15.5mph - the limiter on the Canadian ebike i tried a few years back was i think 30kmph which was a lot more natural than our 25kmph. All in all, ebikes are here to stay - just pedal-assist.
I’m not apposed to emtb’s I may buy one one day, as an older mtb’r that’s been riding over 30 years I was involved in trail advocacy since the early 90s when we gained access to lots of places because we were a non- motorized trail user. I’m afraid that blurring that line may loose access to some of the most special trails that I love the most.
Fair concern! I think that's the most valid reason for eMTB fear in the USA.
@@JeffKendallWeed It's not only the "most valid" reason, it is the only reason. And ultimately it is a fear born of ignorance. eMTB riders are also "non-motorized trail users", as that is a legal class of vehicle that does not include eMTB, hence education is the problem.
I took up electric unicycles and now that they have big powerful motors with full suspension, so mountain bike trails are my number one choice for a ride. So I think I'll add to the mix of the craziness.
Great video but I prefer the term Analogue vs Acoustic bike. or just MTB vs eMTB. Having ridden mtbs for many many years i moved to a focus eMTB and can now ride and keep up with mates who are much younger and havent had so many injuries from years of pushing analogue bikes around. The use case for an eMTB isnt to replace MTBs, its to support people who dont for whatever reason have the capability to ride long distances on MTBs
I ride a normal pedal bike (Santa Cruz Hightower) for the same reason I drive a base model 6 speed manual car. I just want the fun essentials and don’t want the headaches of more technology. I don’t have anything against the bikes or the people that ride them, they just aren’t for me.
I'd say it's the cost of an ebike, a well spec push bike vs based model ebike.. In terms of value i'll go for a well spec bike for less money. Maintainability is another thing, you have a motor to deal with, cost of repair of, extra battery (extra cost) to carry if you're doing long rides.
Not sure about trail access with Ebikes in the UK but here it's pretty much open for any pedal assist bikes.
In your review of the Orbea Rise you said that you had to go to Canada to ride it as that bike is not legal on your local trails. Same situation where I live. Our local ranger district does not allow ebiking. So unless and until they are cleared for use, ebikes will not be of much interest to me. I can't see spending $8,000 (or more) on a bike with very limited riding potential where I live. Now all this said, I ride on average about 5 days per week, going from about 15 to 45 miles per ride with anywhere from 2500 to 7500 vertical on those rides. If ebikes were legal here, I might be interested in one. It might be nice to have a bit of extra go-go power one day a week and give my legs a rest. Haha! But that just isn't in the cards now and I don't see our forests opening to ebikes anytime soon. I have learned a good bit from your videos over the years. Thank you for sharing them with us all!
Something like the Kenevo SL is closer to a pedal bike than the heavy eMTB going down and slower than my XC going up.
Its funny to see all this resistance to ebikes in the USA...Where I live (West Europe) there's not so much of that and in my local trails more than half are already ebikes...The reason is simple: with steep climbs and short tracks ebikes equal more time going down in less going up...If I have have a 2 hour brake I can do way more with a ebike now :)
greeting from central Europe. I have the same aproach, riding bike and ebike as well :)
Very well thought out presentation & methodical approach to address the "fear mongering" related to eMTB. I have ridden both & prefer acoustic for the qualities you highlighted. The biggest pro to me for eMTB is the ability to ride multiple days in a row and/or longer days in the saddle. So many of us travel to ride, and the limiting factor for me is usually my quads after 3 or 4 days of hard riding. eMTB opens the possibility of packing in exploring more new epic singletrack in a short window.
Another con I haven't seen mentioned is trail impact due to increased traffic with riders more easily able to lap/session sections on an eMTB. A lot of popular trails get blown out in their current state & don't get the maintenance they need. The solution to this isn't to ban eMTB, but to increase engagement with our local trail advocacy & maintenance groups like you stated. More butts on saddles is ALWAYS a good thing!
I own a stumpjumper evo and a Levo. Love riding both of them. I ride my evo with my friends. When I'm going out for a solo ride I like to take my eMTB. I have a busy life and if I can get 2 hours worth of MTB riding in 1 hour of eMTB that means I can squeeze in rides on days that I wouldn't have been able to
I live in Ontario, and for some purist is like ebikes are for old guys out of shape or A-holes. But to be honest I have tried them and like it. I think is not bad at all you can enjoy longer rides with less fatigue and also a good training aide if you can afford the bike and its maintenance go for it as we cyclist love our n+1.
Lots of older more established and influential ($$$) folks on Ebikes. Might be good to have these folks on your side defending trail access
So, I own both an emtb and a normal mtb, and I use both as much as I can. Since in our area we don't have real mtb trails built for purpose, this means that getting up hills and dirt roads is a lot easier with an emtb. I am also a father of two kids, and I have little free time to ride, so the emtb allows me to ride more km in the same amount of time than with my normal mtb. (Merida eone sixty vs scott ransom 920). I ride my normal mtb whenever I get the chance to take part in an enduro race event or go to a bikepark, or when I happen to have more time for riding with friends on normal mtbs. Emtb and mtb are two different tools for similar purposes, having fun going downhill, I can have fun on both of them, and to be honest I ride my emtb more because of my current situation. If I were to live near a huge bikepark then obviously the mtb would get more ride time. The emtb has helped me a ton to progress my skills on the bike, gain confidence and enjoy this sport, without wrecking my body for not being as fit as I used to be 15 years ago.
So I see the benefit of both mtb and emtb, and hating on either of these seems totally pointless to me. If someone is an idiot on an emtb then that person will be an idiot on an mtb too, it wouldnt matter.
Cheers Jeff for the great content, love your channel!
Agreed on all this. I have also heard that since e bikes put down more torque, they accelerate damage to the trail. Not sure if I fully buy it, but it would be interesting if this could get tested in practice as that’s the only thing that I could see as a downside.
It was done in USA to get authorization access to a park. Don't remember his name. More the bike+biker are heavy, more the trail is damaged, very tiny change but mesurable. Conclusion: forbidden trail to bike+biker weighting more than 120kg? Oups, this is already the case, bike limitation.
I have heard that argument, but none of it compares to equestrian damage. Horse are awesome, but they tear up trails worse than actual dirt bikes. (Plus they shit everywhere.)
Studies have been attempted to show this. No evidence that this is true exists so far, and intuitively it is BS.
eBikes only "put down more torque" when it would be an advantage to do so. That would be during climbs. It would not be during descents. Blasting down descents, which is not an eMTB-specific feature, causes more trail damage than climbing, intuitively.
Sorry, but "more torque = more trail damage" is a contrived argument.
@@craigsj no need to apologize. I figured it was BS. All I’m saying is it would be need if we could get some creators to break down even more myths in a public way so trail associations make changes to their regulations. Right now it doesn’t matter what’s true because there is a stigma and because there isn’t info readily available to the people opposed to e-bikes. Videos like this (and the one I’m suggesting) help combat that. I want to see more bike on the trail, electric or not.
@@NoBrakes23 I believe that
A very well reasoned analysis. Did a big loop of the West a month or so ago and the majority of the time there was a welcoming attitude at the shops and on the trails. Colorado has a more distinct anti-vibe to it though. The point about including more riders into advocacy groups is a solid point that I hope proves visionary.
Funnily enough I think the concept of the video "it's not that different!" is exactly why many people also see problems. This is generating e-waste; you have batteries which will die. The price is higher. It is using scarcer resources for a pure hobby benefit of "minor" deviation of performance. I think for some people it makes sense as they get older or are injured, but by and large it's wasteful for people who just don't want to pedal as hard and are physically capable of conditioning themselves to do so. My 2 cents.
I'm for the evolution on eMTB, coming from a MTBr who was riding rigid steel hardtail before Rock Shox RS1 front shock was introduced. (let that marinate how old I am), Here in Hawaii, eMTB is not the problem, it's the Suron, Super 8 type bikes and now the new crop of Electric Unicycles that starting to bring a new hate to the trails.
Thank you Jeff for stepping up and addressing the issue. Great way to break everything down and convert the electronic motor to HP which more people understand. I'm sure there will still be negative comments but you can't please everyone. I was just looking at website last night and many acoustic Santa Cruz bikes close to $10k, so sick of hearing how much E bikes cost. No way for you to do study but other crutch they use is E bikes cause more trail damage or wear.
So frustrated by my the USFS posting on EVERY single trailhead in my area that Ebikes and Pedal Assists are not allowed. It adds to the hatred and produces an unfair bias to EMTB's in general, but also for those who might really need the assistance of a Class 1 bike (like me, who has a medical limitation).
I would argue the biggest reason for hate of emtbs is the jealousy factor. They're expensive and there's a barrier to entry.
The clips of the end of the wooden gaps. When did you go there? Do you have a video on it?
I have a bunch of bikes, 1 EMTB, 1 regular MTB, and numerous other sorts. I thinks anyone who rides trails can’t help loving what an EMTB can do with a skilled rider on top of it. Of course the most significant difference is going uphill and there are tech sections that I can clear on my turbo Levo and can’t get it done on my Stumpjumper. On flow trails I can catch air on the uphill, make more laps, more time working on my skills.
The lighter MTB is not to be missed, but the monster EMBT is simply a blast…..again own both!!!! It is ignorance alone that believes the EMTB will destroy the earth. It is however terrifying for a purist MTBer, to witness a 65 year old rider tear up the side of a mountain while they hike a bike it for only one trip down.