There was a Twilight Zone episode about a WWII tank being transported to the little big horn battle. Most of the story was about the soldiers making the decision to interfere in history.
….because the future soldiers could not alter history without also changing future events and possibly Brit own existence; thus most types of the past entry stories merely have the future cried merely completing a past event or remaining neutral to it!
Two things. 1. Sitting Bull was not involved in the battle. He had participated in a religious ritual a day or so before which left him a bloody mess. 2. According to the Indian participants there was no Indian charge against Custer (Reno yes) The Indians said it was more of creeping through the tall grass and undulations of the rounds.
Depending on what he defines as a Green Beret since modern ones have unit lineage with 4(ish) different units, the M60 was not heavily used by them. The recce and deep penetration units only used them in limited. The QRF and Hatchet force units used them but no more than a regular infantry platoon
@@bragslvbm3870 OK, then Stoner rifles. We're talking four ODAs of 12 men @, plus. No machine guns at all? Get real. Some heavy weapon specialists would have not only M60s, but 60mm mortars and LAWs.
Custer's Batt. was in a running battle and would not have had time to fortify their position, so any advantage that gave them was null and void. The indians were mostly armed with rifles and crept up thru ravines and coolies.
How about a Gulf War-era (1991) American tank battalion integrating into the US 1st Armored Division at the Battle of Kasserine Pass during the Allied North Africa campaign in WW2?
bruh! the abrams would FEAST! probably the M60 series as well, since during the storm my unit was using the -60 and we kicked the shit out of the t72...lol
Mixed M1 and Bradley would be interesting. Have to believe with the tech and training of those units, they'd never drive into a trap, and wouldn't work uncoordinated. Also interesting because I think Bradley and Patton were there, and believe Abrams was part of Patton's army?
In the long run, not much, at least militarily. The problem is that the Persians started with something like 250,000 soldiers (estimated 120k - 300k). No platoon-sized or company-sized unit will carry enough ammo to make a real dent in an enemy that size. On the other hand, as the saying goes, "You don't win a battle by killing the enemy, you win by making him run away." So, all you would need is a few mortar teams and some ammunition bearers. When mortar rounds start impacting around Xerxes and his generals, the only reasonable explanation would be that the gods were responsible. With the leadrship dead, targeting the front ranks would probably rout the Persian army. There is just no percentage in fighting against the gods.
Another channel did this. Basically, the very existence of the machine gun and how it works, specifically the noise and gory effect, would completely turn the tide, and give the Persians PTSD.
Xerxes and his generals would've been the first targets by Greek snipers/marksmen perching from the cliffs. Losing their entire chain of commands by the unseen enemy, the demoralized Persians made a hastily retreat back to their ships, which could be intercepted by Athenian navy and totally destroyed.
They likely would have negotiated a peaceful ending. They had faced such tactics in Vietnam, so they knew likely outcome against such a large force. That and they are supposed to help peoples oppressed. It is more likely they would have made Custer surrender or even withdraw. Remember what Custer was doing to women and children before this battle, we tend to overlook this fact. Green Beret would never have allowed him to do such actions. It goes against their code of honour.
I suspect only a few, IF armed with one of the ultra high speed mini guns and unlimited ammo. I don't the names and numbers of those guns, but some of them do like 1000 rounds a minute or more, so I think you could just so left to right and right to left, everyone and their horse in front of you would new mowed down.
@@nedkelly2035 You wouldn't have unlimited ammo. it is possible that they would have logistics issues if it were a small number. When they aspirated was it right there with boxes and boxes of ammo, or was it at the fort?
Depending on their load-out I'd say 4 or maybe 8. It really depends on how quickly the berets can make contact and convince the natives how badly their life choices had lead them astray
You forget that if they fall into the command structure Custer was still in command, Custer was trying to get enough fame to run for president. He would have squandered the benefits that the Green Berets gave him.
This right here proves once again this guy doesn’t know what he is talking about. Nor wood the GB fight along side the Calvary as suggested but be in flanking positions ready to counter attack the first attack or disrupt its original momentum. They would not use automatic fire but still have superior firepower. However if the native army did not spook at the beginning I’m not sure the 50 added guns would be enough. Especially if they were side by side with the Calvary.
The Guns of The South - is an Alternate History of South Africans bringing the AK Variants back in time to the Confederacy and the impact on the Civil War. On another comment stream, that I viewed, there was speculation on what a single Armored vehicle like a modern tank might have made on the Battle of Gettysburg. Some speculated that a LAV or similar large wheeled armored vehicle would be more effective with its auto cannons and 50 cal. machine guns etc.. One Officer chimed in that the Union Forces would quickly recover from the initial shock and would readily see how to knock the tracks off of the tank with logs pushed into the tracks. I found all those speculations to be interesting.
They would have to get close to the tank first, but I think a Bradley or Stryker would be better, they don't need anti armor capabilities of a tank. The bushmaster on the Bradley with explosive AP rounds would absolutely rule the field
I think the battle would end up being fairly one sided. Little Bighorn was mostly a strategic blunder, and the green berets wouldn't make the same mistakes.
You and the guys replying to you have no understanding of what the current tactical concepts were in use by the US army and the native Americans at the time. Go do some research about what the typical conduct of native Americans were when their camps were attacked. Then go look at how Custer planned his attack.
Well actually no even though Custer maybe the ranking officer Green Berets don't fall under those types of Command structures. They run independent operations for a reason.
That was interesting. I love the old West. In another episode, how about samurai in the crusades? Or Marine Recon in a Revolutionary or Civil War battle. Thanks again for the video.
I got this idea whilst watching a clip from the series black sails, but long story short... HMS Victory is present for the Battle of Actium in 31 BCE, during the final confrontation between Octavian and Mark Antony that would see the latter's death and end of any major threat to Octavian's rise to emperor of rome. How would this battle play out if HMS Victory is on the side of Mark Anthony? What if HMS Victory was at Actium in 31 BCE?
50 Green Berets - that’s four ODAs, the MAJ, and a SGM. So almost a whole company. That means they’d have trained up elements of the Kiowa, Commanche, Utes, and 3 other tribes, 27 towns worth of settlers, and 600 Vaqueros, and surrounded the Lakota, Arapaho, Dakota and Cheyenne encampments. Then negotiated with Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, et al, from a position of strength, convincing them to join forces, move north, and carve out a new Indian nation in Alberta.
if modern Green Berets went back, they would likely have told the entire 7th Calvary to get the F out of there and re-think the whole thing before the battle started.
If you give the Sioux assault rifles and light machine guns before the battle.... no impact. Dividing them into three parts (every group only 17 men strong) as Custer did with the 7th cavalry and two times those 17 against more than 1000 native warriors (like Reno's attack first and than Custer's).... nope. But I doubt a group of Green Berets would be as dumb as Custer bringing them into the same hopeless situation.... 🤔
You forgot about the claymores each soldier would’ve carried on patrol/ missions. 1 or more carried by each soldier would’ve given them 40 plus claymores which would have given them a huge advantage
How do you see them using the claymore mines? As a defensive perimeter for the flanks or placing them then falling back before detonating them as the enemy takes the ground?
If you are going to add hypothetical 50 Green Beret to Custer's men .. it is only fair you add 50 Sioux warriors that were trained veterans of the Rangers .. the outcome would then not change .. the 7th, Custer and the Green Beret would still have their asses handed to them by the Sioux, Cheyenne, and the Rangers .. (:))
You haven't been to the battle site nor do you have any knowledge about what really happened. In reallity the battle that took place really happened in two places about 5 miles from each other. And very different outcomes for each. If you get the chance I recommend visiting the site and study battle tactics used at the time, you will come back with very different results.
This reminds me of a novel titled Remember The Alamo, in which an oil magnate hires a mercenary force armed with 1980's era weapons, to take part in and win the Battle of the Alamo. The reason was to give the oil company access to oil fields in the northern part of Mexico by pushing the U.S./Mexico further south than it actually is. It's a fun read.
I read this one also years ago. There were two other books in the same vein, where soldiers go back in time like that. One took place at Gettysburg, the other at the Little Big Horn. But there weren't 50 of them and I don't think they were Green Berets. I do recall that in the Custer one, some of them were killed. Don't remember how it ended. Same with the Gettysburg one.
@@jameshorton7496 I think I read the gettysburg one too. It was wierd but I think the protagonist convinced the federal general to not occupy culps hill and the confederates win the battle. He was stuck in the past, I believe. I think they had one about Chickamauga too. That was a sort of time wrinkle sort of deal. A 60s combat team ends up fighting in that battle. One survivor and he buries the weapons and commits suicide.
The U.S. wasn't involved at the Alamo, that was Mexicans calling themselves Texicans revolting against other Mexicans for independence. Who ever wrote that book must have failed history class.
As long as they Ignored Custer they would fairly easily prevail. Just using Semi-Auto Rifle Fire they could keep the enemy at a distance. Since the enemy is on horses, allow them to Attack to maybe 50-100 yds before responding. No reason to make them aware of longer range abilities as long as possible. The idea would be to cause as many Casualties as possible, not scare them off to harass as the troops were Retreating/Leaving.
There was a short story many years ago about a WW2 Army unit transported back in time by a nuclear explosion to Gettysburg. The interesting point was that some were from the North, others from the South.
This issue was covered on an episode of the TWILIGHT ZONE. The soldiers' names were listed on the memorial. 20 modern soldiers against a thousand mobile fighting men.
They could have supported the Blackfoot Which were the enemy of Lakota and Cheyenne and Arapaho People fail to remember that the indigenous enemy scouts were crucial in these conflicts
They are American soldiers first and foremost, they would never fight against the cavalry. Maybe they would stick with the indigenous scouts but that's about it
One thing that virtually every visual depiction of the battle of Little Bighorn gets wrong is the hats that the 7th Cav troopers are wearing. Due to army regulations of the time, soldiers were required to purchase their own hats. Straw Boater hats(barber shop quartet hats) were VERY popular because they were only a dime at the sutler's store.
We have photos of Custer's men prior to the battle, they where not wearing those kind of hats, homie. Most of the hats they wore where kepis and forge caps while officers would wear stetsons. So the depictions are accurate as far as hats go.
ah yes, thank you for this. I was wondering when LBH was going to to this channel of yours. Wasnt excepting 'nam era SF guys. Still great food for thought, but, what would it be like with the gatling guns would've happen?
I will interject one thing into this battle and not even use the modern soldiers. Custer had 4 Gatling guns at his disposed but didn't bring them along. Had he brought them, the same devastation that the Green Berets would have inflicted with the use of those weapons alone. Just a thought. Besides, Custer was an idiot for splitting his forces without knowing the disposition of his enemy.
Alternate scenario: 50 Green Berets, but they have to use the weapons of the era. Or: Custer's men (or at least some, at the battle) armed with modern weapons and trained to use them.
If they knew what a war criminal Custer was targeting women and children those Green Berets would fight for the Indians. Indigenous integrating and networking is their historic specialty. 🪓
There was a "Twilight Zone" episode where a National Guard tank on maneuvers inadvertently found themselves going back in time. They ended up at Little Big Horn and participated in the battle, though their tank magically became unserviceable.
Unless they deployed with a full Colonel the result wouldn't change that much in my opinion as Custer would probably resist or ignore advice from the GBs as strong headed as he was. If the GBs brought a higher ranking officer, then the result would differ.
I think many here aren't considering the terrain of the batttlefield. The Army was at a grave disadvantage from the start by being in open the whole time. The Natives took advantage of the hills, slopes, and gulches that they knew like the back of their hands.
So let's forget green berets all together. Benteen shows up and he and Reno team up and are able to hold off the Indians force. 100 men with 1800's single shots would have completely changed the outcome. Or not dividing your force 2 or 3 times.
I'm thinking maybe the Vietnam vets would have asked the question - why are we trying to attack a civilian village again? And maybe have avoided the entire mess based on superior leadership and improved morals. I'd expect better of both of those from any 1960's US soldier than we ever had from Custer.
By the way - there was a Twilight Zone Episode (S5 : E10) "On June 25, 1964, three Army National Guard soldiers on maneuvers near the Little Big Horn battle site find themselves unwittingly involved in Custer's Last Stand" (IMDB).
The only problem would be the lack of support weapons, such as M60s, a pair of squads would've added a devastating firepower to the GBs. Naturally the grenade launchers would've been very useful, expecially from the psycholocical factor, indians knew the power of the artillery, but being shot by something that you can't see is very frightful.
50 at once would probably be the biggest SF gathering ever, even in post war reunions, for specialists that operated in handful size groups 🙂. I'd expect even just one SF non-com to say "No, we're not going to do this." Smart observation and assessment was generally their specialty, and getting ambushed would not be in their game plan.
Great concept but I believe that you have it wrong. Custer was an idiot and was out for glory. His mindset at the time was that he wanted to move fast, find them, fix them and kill them. The reason he chose not to take the Gatling Guns was that he didn't want them slowing him down. He was Calvary first and foremost and wouldn't take foot soldiers with him unless they were mounted on horseback. Wagons would be just as slow, if not slower than the Gatling Guns. So unless you could get these Green Berets up to speed on horseback, meaning they'd have to leave their heavier weapons like the M-60s behind. Combine this with the fact that most of the US forces were caught out in the open on rolling grass land with no cover or concealment and the fact that Custer was going to do what he felt regardless of warnings he'd received from his own staff. Regardless was the GB told him, I believe he'd have made the same stupid mistakes. I believe that the GBs would have made a difference and probably could have gotten some of the men out alive and certainly send many of the Indians running, I think that serving under a self centered idiot like Custer would have been a waste of these men and their abilities.
He only had been offered 2 gattling guns and 2 Hotchkiss repeating cannons. These are great back east with proper roads but out west the damned things where useless, they required 4 horses to pull them and teams of men to man handle them over obstacles, and the frequently rolled over during transport and the where notirious for jamming up. Ever officer experienced in fighting the natives all said the same thing: They where usless. And Custer knew that. What wasn't usless was the king cannon of the west, the Mountain Howitzer. Small enough it can be broken down and transported on the backs of 4 muels with ease. But he didn't have access to them and he was better off not taking the dead weight. I can't believe this is still being argued, this argument had been settled months after the battle...
M-16s,xm-177s( Car 15s) , claymores, 60mm motors and m-60 machine guns ? Depends on where the green berets were deployed? If with Custer they would have beaten back the natives that attacked Custers three companies( at least 500-600 natives dead) unless the Platoon was split up - if that's the case about 15 green berets would have DIED with Custer leaving about 400 plus native warriors dead History has shown that Custer company got " bum rushed" in the tall prairie grass- vicious close in fighting
Parry This , how about the battle of Teutoburg Forest but the Roman legions have modern day special operators ( like seals or delta) for battle tactics to assist them ( not engage) and using small radio operated drones to view the battlefield
Hmm, the Indians had Winchester repeaters, effective single target range of 250m, Spencers, with an effective range of 500m, the Henry had an effective range of 200m, but had a 15 round magazine (think rapid fire - like a 19th c assault rifle. Once the Indians had realised the range of the weapons they were up against they could have simply stayed at range, under cover, and sniped at the Army forces. Arrows were also loosed by Indians from behind cover, in high trajectory and the archers would not have been visible to the soldiers and virtually impossible to fire back at. The other thing to remember is this, Custer had 250 troopers, plus 50 modern troops. That is still only 300 troops. There were about 1200 Indian warriors. Every ten men lost from the Army forces was around 3% of total forces. The Indians could afford higher casualties. Once Custer's forces had been attrited by about 20% capacity would really have started to break down.
That wasn’t entirely his fault. The Rosebud battle caused Crook to retreat south toward modern day Sheridan. The battle was about a week before and was the same village. Custer should have been informed of it, but never was.
Forget modern weapons. If the 50 Green Berets were allowed to make their own tactical decisions, they would’ve remained split off from Custer’s main group. Making a stand like Custer’s men did left them cut off and immobile allowing indigenous hostiles to pick and choose the engagement and control the pace of battle. If 50 Green Berets-even armed with contemporary weaponry-had remained detached from the 7th Cavalry, the indigenous hostiles would’ve found themselves caught between the two forces.
Sitting Bull didn't actually engage in combat at the Battle of the Little Bighorn, he stayed in the village. Crazy Horse and Chief Gall among others led the fight on the Indian's side.
Hey, please can you try the modern French Foreign Legion holding the Ardennes against the Wehrmacht in the Battle of France? Please, I think this will be a competitive battle and could go either way.
I think your assessment is a bit optimistic. I would doubt the Green Berets would be excited about standing beside Custer on last stand hill. There, many of the troopers died from a rain of arrows used like artillery. Fired from out of sight below the crest of land. That being said, let the lads complete Custer's strategy and they could have won the battle. Custer, was trying to cross the river and get behind the camp. Then when Reno attacked on one end, he would be in a position to capture the women and children fleeing the camp in the other direction. He could not find a way to get his mounts over the river. So the plan never worked. But a river crossing for special forces is no issue. They could have captured the women and children and held them as hostage to get the braves to lay down their arms just as Custer had planned. Many lives would have been saved and history changed forever.
The Twilight Zone: The 7tth is Made Up of Phantoms (1963). A tank crew of an M5 Stuart find themselves at the Battle of the Little Big Horn. Did not end well for the tank crew who did not bring up their Stuart. For reason?
I have a crazy what if for you What if a platoon of US Marines World War II error went back in time and fought with Spartacus at the Battle of the Silarius River? I think that would be a crazy one
Special Forces Operational Detachments Alpha; or as they are abbreviated SFODA’s and we call ODA’s come in units of 12 Green Berets. 2 officers and 10 enlisted, sooooo it would more accurately be titled 48 of us Green Berets. Each rifle would have a minimum of 340 bullets on their web gear and bandoliers, plus another 150-250 in their ruck along with 1 or 2 of the 5 qt “canteens.” All 48 would carry their .45’s & min 11 mags with 100-150 more rounds in the ruck or buttpack. And when the bullets ran out, we had an e-tool with a very sharpened edge. It took until more than a little way thru before I noticed the SF guys were in addition to, not, in place of. Unless you eliminate Custer, there is a leadership conundrum and the loss at that battle was all on him…I’d like to think he was morphined to a 36 hour controlled nap induced by the SF Medic to rectify that aspect of the issue.
SF would have never rode into that Valley like and/ or with Yellow Hair. My Old Man w/ a 12 man Team was overrun by a reinforced Company sized element @/across W Border in the Highlands under Kennedy. He's 80 years old today, still living outside Conroe, Texas. Custer was a fool
The army was not using muskets. The Indians were, along with 40 other types of firearms including repeating rifles. Sitting Bull was helping to organize the evacuation of non-combatants. Crazy Horse was a little late getting into the fight. The last of the troopers killed were in a gully down towards the river.
I know what the cavalry had. .45-70 single shot carbines. They had the fire power the warriors had rate of fire as well as overwhelming numbers. The terrain was probably on their side too.
As a retired Grenn Beret I think those 50 Green Berets would of been working with "indige" to Free the Oppressed..lol. another thing is I guess those 50 Vietnam era GBs would be a Mike Force and not deployed in 12 man ODAs.
Well seeing as you're going there allow me to suggest that you go a little farther down the Garden Path. In the Star Trek episode The Omega Glory Captain Ron Tracy along with a handful of civilians and four phasers fought a battle against the Yangs in a parallel Earth. Initially he fought a smaller engagement against several hundred armed with only his single hand phaser. But later on when he acquired three extra phasers from a landing party he fought and lost a much larger engagement. If you're looking for pseudohistorical what ifs this is a good one. One trained soldier with a high-tech weapon, three civilian assistance with similar weapons against an enormous number of Indians AKA Yangs. Hey if we're going down the rabbit hole, let's go down the rabbit hole.
No 800 is the area target range, granted with 5000 Indians charging your bound to hit something. 550 meters is the max effective range for a point target for an M-16A2.
It would be interesting to see how Sitting Bull would deploy his 50 green berets to best effect. In fact, they might have been enough to hurl the settlers ba k over the mississipi
CAValry... is a mobile, then, horse mounted tactical unit of the combined arms doctrine. Calvary is a hill that was outside the historic walls of Jerusalem....
FOB 4 August 23, 1968, Plei Me October 18-25 1965, Nam Dong July 5-6 1964. Just a few examples of how Green Berets, would've got their asses handed to them by larger forces. If it hadn't been for reinforcements, air strikes and artillery. The Natives were fluid popping up all over, making it hard to pin down a large group of them.
Don't forget that some of the Green Berets are of indigenous decent. Also remembering what the US Govt did to their people since the Battle of Little Bighorn. Most if not all of those would probably join the Natives against Custer.
If the Warriors at Little Bighorn battlefield had the same firepower as Custer's weapons & support it would've still been a slaughter! I was in VietNam & talking to a Green Beret, he told me 75% of our LRRPS, MIKE FORCES, RANGERS, RECON were killed or missing. If Natives had resources like NVA they would've won against the cavalry or green berets. There were many American Green Berets fighting on American side. WWII we coulda' lost the War without our Native American Warriors/Code Talkers.
Many of the indians had repeating winchester rifles that had good accuracy and range to equal anything the rangers brought outside of rate of fire but they had hundreds of warriors vs 50 rangers. I think it’s possibly the rangers would fight to a draw.
Yeah, and if pigs could fly... BTW, by ALL accounts, Sitting Bull, as elder spiritual leader, did not actually participating in the battle, but remained in the village. So, I don't think he gets picked off in the battle.
@@BobSmith-dk8nw yeah, no shit. The gear the boys have now is a whole different era. You're my regimental father, thanks. I wish we could meet some day.
There was a Twilight Zone episode about a WWII tank being transported to the little big horn battle. Most of the story was about the soldiers making the decision to interfere in history.
Yeah, and at the end, the 3 soldiers get out of the tank with their M1 carbines and run to join the battle on foot.
@paulbilger3782:
They weren't WW2 soldiers. Present time in episode like 1962
That was a stellar episode. Have seen it many times and enjoyed it each time.
….because the future soldiers could not alter history without also changing future events and possibly Brit own existence; thus most types of the past entry stories merely have the future cried merely completing a past event or remaining neutral to it!
Yes - the way they were sliding the .45's and carbine to chamber I though this was directed by Sam Peckinpah!@@txgunguy2766
In answer to the original question, he would have left them behind, just like he did the 2 Gatling guns he could had.
Two things. 1. Sitting Bull was not involved in the battle. He had participated in a religious ritual a day or so before which left him a bloody mess. 2. According to the Indian participants there was no Indian charge against Custer (Reno yes) The Indians said it was more of creeping through the tall grass and undulations of the rounds.
Beat me to it about Sitting Bull. He was an old man
No M60s? Seriously?
Depending on what he defines as a Green Beret since modern ones have unit lineage with 4(ish) different units, the M60 was not heavily used by them. The recce and deep penetration units only used them in limited. The QRF and Hatchet force units used them but no more than a regular infantry platoon
@@bragslvbm3870 OK, then Stoner rifles. We're talking four ODAs of 12 men @, plus. No machine guns at all? Get real. Some heavy weapon specialists would have not only M60s, but 60mm mortars and LAWs.
@@johntillman6068Stoners were almost exclusively used by Navy Seals. Same for the China Lake grenade launcher. Very few were used by army units.
RPD-44 was famous amongst the green berets though
They had to make it a little fair for the Indians, you see 😂
Custer's Batt. was in a running battle and would not have had time to fortify their position, so any advantage that gave them was null and void. The indians were mostly armed with rifles and crept up thru ravines and coolies.
How about a Gulf War-era (1991) American tank battalion integrating into the US 1st Armored Division at the Battle of Kasserine Pass during the Allied North Africa campaign in WW2?
bruh! the abrams would FEAST! probably the M60 series as well, since during the storm my unit was using the -60 and we kicked the shit out of the t72...lol
Mixed M1 and Bradley would be interesting. Have to believe with the tech and training of those units, they'd never drive into a trap, and wouldn't work uncoordinated. Also interesting because I think Bradley and Patton were there, and believe Abrams was part of Patton's army?
Now that would be interesting 🧐
So, kursk would look much different!
Belgium would probably be a soviet starlight state .
Numbers count.
@@tbone1812 Heck not even the German's and Italian's heaviest AT weapons could even scratch the US' modern MBTs at point blank range. Way too easy 🤣
idea : what if the 300 spatrans were supported by modern greek soldiers
In the long run, not much, at least militarily. The problem is that the Persians started with something like 250,000 soldiers (estimated 120k - 300k). No platoon-sized or company-sized unit will carry enough ammo to make a real dent in an enemy that size.
On the other hand, as the saying goes, "You don't win a battle by killing the enemy, you win by making him run away." So, all you would need is a few mortar teams and some ammunition bearers. When mortar rounds start impacting around Xerxes and his generals, the only reasonable explanation would be that the gods were responsible. With the leadrship dead, targeting the front ranks would probably rout the Persian army. There is just no percentage in fighting against the gods.
😂😂😂
Another channel did this. Basically, the very existence of the machine gun and how it works, specifically the noise and gory effect, would completely turn the tide, and give the Persians PTSD.
Xerxes and his generals would've been the first targets by Greek snipers/marksmen perching from the cliffs. Losing their entire chain of commands by the unseen enemy, the demoralized Persians made a hastily retreat back to their ships, which could be intercepted by Athenian navy and totally destroyed.
The 50 Special Forces soldiers wouldn't put themselves in this situation in the first place.
Thank you
They were force multipliers and are trainers of the locals. I'd say use the MacV Sog forces depicted in the Series Tour Of Duty season 3.
Yes, but he did say if 50 Green Berets found themselves transported into this battle.
They likely would have negotiated a peaceful ending. They had faced such tactics in Vietnam, so they knew likely outcome against such a large force. That and they are supposed to help peoples oppressed. It is more likely they would have made Custer surrender or even withdraw. Remember what Custer was doing to women and children before this battle, we tend to overlook this fact. Green Beret would never have allowed him to do such actions. It goes against their code of honour.
@@Reargunner-o7h That was the situation portrayed in the movie when their camp was over run.
A more interesting consideration. How few Green Berets would it take to be able to turn the tide of the battle? 6? 12? 20?
6
@@RexBell303 1 and his name is John Rambo.
I suspect only a few, IF armed with one of the ultra high speed mini guns and unlimited ammo. I don't the names and numbers of those guns, but some of them do like 1000 rounds a minute or more, so I think you could just so left to right and right to left, everyone and their horse in front of you would new mowed down.
@@nedkelly2035 You wouldn't have unlimited ammo. it is possible that they would have logistics issues if it were a small number. When they aspirated was it right there with boxes and boxes of ammo, or was it at the fort?
Depending on their load-out I'd say 4 or maybe 8. It really depends on how quickly the berets can make contact and convince the natives how badly their life choices had lead them astray
You forget that if they fall into the command structure Custer was still in command, Custer was trying to get enough fame to run for president. He would have squandered the benefits that the Green Berets gave him.
I believe they would tell him to take a hike.
@danhardesty6318 they most definitely would, especially if they remember the original battle
Or some "unlucky" accident could've happened to him....
This right here proves once again this guy doesn’t know what he is talking about. Nor wood the GB fight along side the Calvary as suggested but be in flanking positions ready to counter attack the first attack or disrupt its original momentum. They would not use automatic fire but still have superior firepower. However if the native army did not spook at the beginning I’m not sure the 50 added guns would be enough. Especially if they were side by side with the Calvary.
Custer's ego killed his troops.
The Guns of The South - is an Alternate History of South Africans bringing the AK Variants back in time to the Confederacy and the impact on the Civil War. On another comment stream, that I viewed, there was speculation on what a single Armored vehicle like a modern tank might have made on the Battle of Gettysburg. Some speculated that a LAV or similar large wheeled armored vehicle would be more effective with its auto cannons and 50 cal. machine guns etc.. One Officer chimed in that the Union Forces would quickly recover from the initial shock and would readily see how to knock the tracks off of the tank with logs pushed into the tracks. I found all those speculations to be interesting.
I want to write a Science Fiction book of WW2 aircraft time traveling back to the CW to assist The South.
They would have to get close to the tank first, but I think a Bradley or Stryker would be better, they don't need anti armor capabilities of a tank. The bushmaster on the Bradley with explosive AP rounds would absolutely rule the field
I read Guns of the South by Turtledove many years ago. Thoroughly enjoyed it!
Reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where a M3A3 Stuart tank showed up at Little Big Horn...
The 7th Calvary did not carry muskets as stated. The cavalry were armed with Springfield “trapdoor” single shot carbines in 45-70 caliber.
With copper cartridges. They failed. The post mortem investigation convinced the US Army to convert to brass
Psst, the modle Springfield "Trapdoor" Carbine was a converted musket. If you look one up, you will see it came with a ramrod.
Love this series, great video!
Absolutely love your content. Well thought out and explained so Joe Anybody could understand it. Thank you!
Semper Fi
Some of the art, the paintings depicting this battle are beautiful.
I think the battle would end up being fairly one sided. Little Bighorn was mostly a strategic blunder, and the green berets wouldn't make the same mistakes.
Of course not. They would have wiped out the 7th cavalry before they got anywhere near the Sioux
Really enjoyed this video. The alternate history battles are so good.
I suspect, at some point after the battle, Custer would have been found tied up somewhere, firmly gagged, so as to not to influence much of anything.
That dumbbell needed it back right after the Civil War.
fragged.
Understandable as the last in his class @ West Point
You and the guys replying to you have no understanding of what the current tactical concepts were in use by the US army and the native Americans at the time. Go do some research about what the typical conduct of native Americans were when their camps were attacked. Then go look at how Custer planned his attack.
He was excellent in the Civil War.
There was still the factor of Custer splitting his forces into 3 units, therefore the beret's could have been split up or sent with Reno or Bentween .
Well actually no even though Custer maybe the ranking officer Green Berets don't fall under those types of Command structures. They run independent operations for a reason.
Very interesting. I like how the troop type changes every time to fit the situation.
That was interesting. I love the old West. In another episode, how about samurai in the crusades? Or Marine Recon in a Revolutionary or Civil War battle. Thanks again for the video.
I got this idea whilst watching a clip from the series black sails, but long story short...
HMS Victory is present for the Battle of Actium in 31 BCE, during the final confrontation between Octavian and Mark Antony that would see the latter's death and end of any major threat to Octavian's rise to emperor of rome. How would this battle play out if HMS Victory is on the side of Mark Anthony?
What if HMS Victory was at Actium in 31 BCE?
Love this series. Keep them coming.
50 Green Berets - that’s four ODAs, the MAJ, and a SGM. So almost a whole company.
That means they’d have trained up elements of the Kiowa, Commanche, Utes, and 3 other tribes, 27 towns worth of settlers, and 600 Vaqueros, and surrounded the Lakota, Arapaho, Dakota and Cheyenne encampments.
Then negotiated with Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, et al, from a position of strength, convincing them to join forces, move north, and carve out a new Indian nation in Alberta.
I love stuff please continue your work
Well De Oppresso Liber, wish for 21st century Green Berets soon😂
Maybe the Berets would join the Indians….
@@darbyheavey406 ya
if modern Green Berets went back, they would likely have told the entire 7th Calvary to get the F out of there and re-think the whole thing before the battle started.
If you give the Sioux assault rifles and light machine guns before the battle.... no impact. Dividing them into three parts (every group only 17 men strong) as Custer did with the 7th cavalry and two times those 17 against more than 1000 native warriors (like Reno's attack first and than Custer's).... nope. But I doubt a group of Green Berets would be as dumb as Custer bringing them into the same hopeless situation.... 🤔
You forgot about the claymores each soldier would’ve carried on patrol/ missions. 1 or more carried by each soldier would’ve given them 40 plus claymores which would have given them a huge advantage
How do you see them using the claymore mines? As a defensive perimeter for the flanks or placing them then falling back before detonating them as the enemy takes the ground?
If you are going to add hypothetical 50 Green Beret to Custer's men .. it is only fair you add 50 Sioux warriors that were trained veterans of the Rangers .. the outcome would then not change .. the 7th, Custer and the Green Beret would still have their asses handed to them by the Sioux, Cheyenne, and the Rangers .. (:))
You haven't been to the battle site nor do you have any knowledge about what really happened. In reallity the battle that took place really happened in two places about 5 miles from each other. And very different outcomes for each. If you get the chance I recommend visiting the site and study battle tactics used at the time, you will come back with very different results.
Using battle tactics used at the time, that is key to most of the arguments
This reminds me of a novel titled Remember The Alamo, in which an oil magnate hires a mercenary force armed with 1980's era weapons, to take part in and win the Battle of the Alamo. The reason was to give the oil company access to oil fields in the northern part of Mexico by pushing the U.S./Mexico further south than it actually is. It's a fun read.
I read this book in high school !
That was a good book.
I read this one also years ago. There were two other books in the same vein, where soldiers go back in time like that. One took place at Gettysburg, the other at the Little Big Horn. But there weren't 50 of them and I don't think they were Green Berets. I do recall that in the Custer one, some of them were killed. Don't remember how it ended. Same with the Gettysburg one.
@@jameshorton7496 I think I read the gettysburg one too. It was wierd but I think the protagonist convinced the federal general to not occupy culps hill and the confederates win the battle. He was stuck in the past, I believe. I think they had one about Chickamauga too. That was a sort of time wrinkle sort of deal. A 60s combat team ends up fighting in that battle. One survivor and he buries the weapons and commits suicide.
The U.S. wasn't involved at the Alamo, that was Mexicans calling themselves Texicans revolting against other Mexicans for independence. Who ever wrote that book must have failed history class.
As long as they Ignored Custer they would fairly easily prevail. Just using Semi-Auto Rifle Fire they could keep the enemy at a distance. Since the enemy is on horses, allow them to Attack to maybe 50-100 yds before responding. No reason to make them aware of longer range abilities as long as possible. The idea would be to cause as many Casualties as possible, not scare them off to harass as the troops were Retreating/Leaving.
Most Indians entered the final battle as infantry. Only in the last stages was there a cavalry charge.
these are great conversation because whether you disagree or not everyone has something to or add.
Real hard to find vietnam war depictions without an M60 present.
The 7th Calvary Regiment later became part of the 1st Calvary Division and they in turn fought in the Vietnam War at Ia Drang
There was a short story many years ago about a WW2 Army unit transported back in time by a nuclear explosion to Gettysburg. The interesting point was that some were from the North, others from the South.
One of our Warriors, Green Beret was Eugene Poweshiek, Mesquakie-Sauk&Fox, he served three tours in VietNam.
This issue was covered on an episode of the TWILIGHT ZONE.
The soldiers' names were listed on the memorial. 20 modern soldiers against a thousand mobile fighting men.
Given the Green Berets' work with indigenous groups in Vietnam, it'd be interesting if they were on the warriors' side.
They could have supported the Blackfoot
Which were the enemy of Lakota and Cheyenne and Arapaho
People fail to remember that the indigenous enemy scouts were crucial in these conflicts
They are American soldiers first and foremost, they would never fight against the cavalry. Maybe they would stick with the indigenous scouts but that's about it
How about 50 Green Berets plus Ditka?
Ooooh the Ditka difference! That would change everything.
One thing that virtually every visual depiction of the battle of Little Bighorn gets wrong is the hats that the 7th Cav troopers are wearing. Due to army regulations of the time, soldiers were required to purchase their own hats. Straw Boater hats(barber shop quartet hats) were VERY popular because they were only a dime at the sutler's store.
Good observation. Those hats were a contributing factor to the lose. No native could take a guy wearing that seriously.
We have photos of Custer's men prior to the battle, they where not wearing those kind of hats, homie. Most of the hats they wore where kepis and forge caps while officers would wear stetsons. So the depictions are accurate as far as hats go.
ah yes, thank you for this. I was wondering when LBH was going to to this channel of yours. Wasnt excepting 'nam era SF guys. Still great food for thought, but, what would it be like with the gatling guns would've happen?
I think they might have had a few claymore mines as well.
I will interject one thing into this battle and not even use the modern soldiers. Custer had 4 Gatling guns at his disposed but didn't bring them along. Had he brought them, the same devastation that the Green Berets would have inflicted with the use of those weapons alone. Just a thought. Besides, Custer was an idiot for splitting his forces without knowing the disposition of his enemy.
Alternate scenario: 50 Green Berets, but they have to use the weapons of the era. Or: Custer's men (or at least some, at the battle) armed with modern weapons and trained to use them.
Probably would have had at least a few m60s in an element that size, great video tho !
Depends. How long do they have to train up the locals?
If they knew what a war criminal Custer was targeting women and children those Green Berets would fight for the Indians. Indigenous integrating and networking is their historic specialty. 🪓
There was a "Twilight Zone" episode where a National Guard tank on maneuvers inadvertently found themselves going back in time. They ended up at Little Big Horn and participated in the battle, though their tank magically became unserviceable.
Unless they deployed with a full Colonel the result wouldn't change that much in my opinion as Custer would probably resist or ignore advice from the GBs as strong headed as he was. If the GBs brought a higher ranking officer, then the result would differ.
I think many here aren't considering the terrain of the batttlefield. The Army was at a grave disadvantage from the start by being in open the whole time. The Natives took advantage of the hills, slopes, and gulches that they knew like the back of their hands.
I would love to see a TV series about these alternate history battles.
So let's forget green berets all together. Benteen shows up and he and Reno team up and are able to hold off the Indians force. 100 men with 1800's single shots would have completely changed the outcome. Or not dividing your force 2 or 3 times.
I'm thinking maybe the Vietnam vets would have asked the question - why are we trying to attack a civilian village again? And maybe have avoided the entire mess based on superior leadership and improved morals. I'd expect better of both of those from any 1960's US soldier than we ever had from Custer.
By the way - there was a Twilight Zone Episode (S5 : E10) "On June 25, 1964, three Army National Guard soldiers on maneuvers near the Little Big Horn battle site find themselves unwittingly involved in Custer's Last Stand" (IMDB).
Instead of Green Berets why not use the modern 7th Cavalry? They are still around you know
The only problem would be the lack of support weapons, such as M60s, a pair of squads would've added a devastating firepower to the GBs. Naturally the grenade launchers would've been very useful, expecially from the psycholocical factor, indians knew the power of the artillery, but being shot by something that you can't see is very frightful.
I think 48 is more accurate for 4 A-teams (12 person squad) than 50. 🤔
50 at once would probably be the biggest SF gathering ever, even in post war reunions, for specialists that operated in handful size groups 🙂. I'd expect even just one SF non-com to say "No, we're not going to do this." Smart observation and assessment was generally their specialty, and getting ambushed would not be in their game plan.
Great concept but I believe that you have it wrong. Custer was an idiot and was out for glory. His mindset at the time was that he wanted to move fast, find them, fix them and kill them. The reason he chose not to take the Gatling Guns was that he didn't want them slowing him down. He was Calvary first and foremost and wouldn't take foot soldiers with him unless they were mounted on horseback. Wagons would be just as slow, if not slower than the Gatling Guns. So unless you could get these Green Berets up to speed on horseback, meaning they'd have to leave their heavier weapons like the M-60s behind. Combine this with the fact that most of the US forces were caught out in the open on rolling grass land with no cover or concealment and the fact that Custer was going to do what he felt regardless of warnings he'd received from his own staff. Regardless was the GB told him, I believe he'd have made the same stupid mistakes.
I believe that the GBs would have made a difference and probably could have gotten some of the men out alive and certainly send many of the Indians running, I think that serving under a self centered idiot like Custer would have been a waste of these men and their abilities.
That Custer was an Idiot would not be lost on the Green Berets. Custer would have been removed from Command.
He only had been offered 2 gattling guns and 2 Hotchkiss repeating cannons. These are great back east with proper roads but out west the damned things where useless, they required 4 horses to pull them and teams of men to man handle them over obstacles, and the frequently rolled over during transport and the where notirious for jamming up. Ever officer experienced in fighting the natives all said the same thing: They where usless. And Custer knew that. What wasn't usless was the king cannon of the west, the Mountain Howitzer. Small enough it can be broken down and transported on the backs of 4 muels with ease. But he didn't have access to them and he was better off not taking the dead weight.
I can't believe this is still being argued, this argument had been settled months after the battle...
@@claytonbenignus4688He wasn't an idiot, you don't make the rank of general in your 20's by being an idiot.
M-16s,xm-177s( Car 15s) , claymores, 60mm motors and m-60 machine guns ? Depends on where the green berets were deployed? If with Custer they would have beaten back the natives that attacked Custers three companies( at least 500-600 natives dead) unless the Platoon was split up - if that's the case about 15 green berets would have DIED with Custer leaving about 400 plus native warriors dead
History has shown that Custer company got " bum rushed" in the tall prairie grass- vicious close in fighting
Parry This , how about the battle of Teutoburg Forest but the Roman legions have modern day special operators ( like seals or delta) for battle tactics to assist them ( not engage) and using small radio operated drones to view the battlefield
Since these men came from the future they would have knowledge of the battle tactics coming at them and address it as well.
Hmm, the Indians had Winchester repeaters, effective single target range of 250m, Spencers, with an effective range of 500m, the Henry had an effective range of 200m, but had a 15 round magazine (think rapid fire - like a 19th c assault rifle. Once the Indians had realised the range of the weapons they were up against they could have simply stayed at range, under cover, and sniped at the Army forces. Arrows were also loosed by Indians from behind cover, in high trajectory and the archers would not have been visible to the soldiers and virtually impossible to fire back at.
The other thing to remember is this, Custer had 250 troopers, plus 50 modern troops. That is still only 300 troops. There were about 1200 Indian warriors. Every ten men lost from the Army forces was around 3% of total forces. The Indians could afford higher casualties. Once Custer's forces had been attrited by about 20% capacity would really have started to break down.
In other words, the SF saved Custer for his courts-martial for disobeying orders and advancing without support.
That wasn’t entirely his fault. The Rosebud battle caused Crook to retreat south toward modern day Sheridan. The battle was about a week before and was the same village. Custer should have been informed of it, but never was.
Forget modern weapons. If the 50 Green Berets were allowed to make their own tactical decisions, they would’ve remained split off from Custer’s main group. Making a stand like Custer’s men did left them cut off and immobile allowing indigenous hostiles to pick and choose the engagement and control the pace of battle. If 50 Green Berets-even armed with contemporary weaponry-had remained detached from the 7th Cavalry, the indigenous hostiles would’ve found themselves caught between the two forces.
Sitting Bull didn't actually engage in combat at the Battle of the Little Bighorn, he stayed in the village. Crazy Horse and Chief Gall among others led the fight on the Indian's side.
Hey, please can you try the modern French Foreign Legion holding the Ardennes against the Wehrmacht in the Battle of France? Please, I think this will be a competitive battle and could go either way.
Instead of green berets, howabout 3 Roman legions with auxiliary calvery and seige machinery vs the Sioux and Northern Cheyenne?
I think your assessment is a bit optimistic. I would doubt the Green Berets would be excited about standing beside Custer on last stand hill. There, many of the troopers died from a rain of arrows used like artillery. Fired from out of sight below the crest of land.
That being said, let the lads complete Custer's strategy and they could have won the battle.
Custer, was trying to cross the river and get behind the camp. Then when Reno attacked on one end, he would be in a position to capture the women and children fleeing the camp in the other direction. He could not find a way to get his mounts over the river. So the plan never worked. But a river crossing for special forces is no issue. They could have captured the women and children and held them as hostage to get the braves to lay down their arms just as Custer had planned. Many lives would have been saved and history changed forever.
The Twilight Zone: The 7tth is Made Up of Phantoms (1963). A tank crew of an M5 Stuart find themselves at the Battle of the Little Big Horn. Did not end well for the tank crew who did not bring up their Stuart. For reason?
I have a crazy what if for you
What if a platoon of US Marines World War II error went back in time and fought with Spartacus at the Battle of the Silarius River?
I think that would be a crazy one
Is their support structure with them?
Special Forces Operational Detachments Alpha; or as they are abbreviated SFODA’s and we call ODA’s come in units of 12 Green Berets. 2 officers and 10 enlisted, sooooo it would more accurately be titled 48 of us Green Berets.
Each rifle would have a minimum of 340 bullets on their web gear and bandoliers, plus another 150-250 in their ruck along with 1 or 2 of the 5 qt “canteens.”
All 48 would carry their .45’s & min 11 mags with 100-150 more rounds in the ruck or buttpack.
And when the bullets ran out, we had an e-tool with a very sharpened edge.
It took until more than a little way thru before I noticed the SF guys were in addition to, not, in place of. Unless you eliminate Custer, there is a leadership conundrum and the loss at that battle was all on him…I’d like to think he was morphined to a 36 hour controlled nap induced by the SF Medic to rectify that aspect of the issue.
I would have included helicopters for mobility and claymore mines for their defensive position but it's a great what if question
No air strike?
SF would have never rode into that Valley like and/ or with Yellow Hair.
My Old Man w/ a 12 man Team was overrun by a reinforced Company sized element @/across W Border in the Highlands under Kennedy. He's 80 years old today, still living outside Conroe, Texas.
Custer was a fool
The army was not using muskets. The Indians were, along with 40 other types of firearms including repeating rifles. Sitting Bull was helping to organize the evacuation of non-combatants. Crazy Horse was a little late getting into the fight. The last of the troopers killed were in a gully down towards the river.
The natives had better firepower. The 7th had single shot Springfield’s, while a lot of the warriors has Lever guns. Not all, but enough.
I know what the cavalry had. .45-70 single shot carbines. They had the fire power the warriors had rate of fire as well as overwhelming numbers. The terrain was probably on their side too.
Most of your pics show M60 light machine guns yet you have none in your equipment list?
As a retired Grenn Beret I think those 50 Green Berets would of been working with "indige" to Free the Oppressed..lol. another thing is I guess those 50 Vietnam era GBs would be a Mike Force and not deployed in 12 man ODAs.
The Crow were fighting against the Sioux with the US Army
Pretty much lost me when they were allowed to dig in first.
Well seeing as you're going there allow me to suggest that you go a little farther down the Garden Path.
In the Star Trek episode The Omega Glory Captain Ron Tracy along with a handful of civilians and four phasers fought a battle against the Yangs in a parallel Earth.
Initially he fought a smaller engagement against several hundred armed with only his single hand phaser. But later on when he acquired three extra phasers from a landing party he fought and lost a much larger engagement.
If you're looking for pseudohistorical what ifs this is a good one. One trained soldier with a high-tech weapon, three civilian assistance with similar weapons against an enormous number of Indians AKA Yangs.
Hey if we're going down the rabbit hole, let's go down the rabbit hole.
800 yard range on point target with an M-16. Battle would have been over faster then Usain Bolt can run the 200
No 800 is the area target range, granted with 5000 Indians charging your bound to hit something. 550 meters is the max effective range for a point target for an M-16A2.
M16A1 max point target range was 460 meters
Spencer - 500m @@SFCret24
Without modern weapons the green berets would have no chance. You’d need a brigade of troops or a division there.
50 might have been a bit to many for this one, IMO, but still liked it.
It would be interesting to see how Sitting Bull would deploy his 50 green berets to best effect. In fact, they might have been enough to hurl the settlers ba k over the mississipi
Where are their M18A1 Claymore directional fragmentation anti-personnel mines? 🎇
Nice fantasy story. Love stuff like this. Big Harry Turtledove fan. HOWEVER, none of the Troopers in the 7th Cavalry had muskets.
Sitting Bull never left the village.
Sitting Bull sat it out
The original Twilight Zone had a similar episode with three 1960s era soldiers going back in time, all three died among the 7th calvary.
To be fair those 3 were stupid. They only brought 2 M-1 rifles and a .45 auto. They left their tank behind.
CAValry... is a mobile, then, horse mounted tactical unit of the combined arms doctrine. Calvary is a hill that was outside the historic walls of Jerusalem....
FOB 4 August 23, 1968, Plei Me October 18-25 1965, Nam Dong July 5-6 1964. Just a few examples of how Green Berets, would've got their asses handed to them by larger forces. If it hadn't been for reinforcements, air strikes and artillery. The Natives were fluid popping up all over, making it hard to pin down a large group of them.
Don't forget that some of the Green Berets are of indigenous decent. Also remembering what the US Govt did to their people since the Battle of Little Bighorn. Most if not all of those would probably join the Natives against Custer.
Almost every picture or drawing of the modern solders shows an M60 light machine gun. Yet, you didn't include a 60 gunner in your load out.
If the Warriors at Little Bighorn battlefield had the same firepower as Custer's weapons & support it would've still been a slaughter! I was in VietNam & talking to a Green Beret, he told me 75% of our LRRPS, MIKE FORCES, RANGERS, RECON were killed or missing. If Natives had resources like NVA they would've won against the cavalry or green berets. There were many American Green Berets fighting on American side. WWII we coulda' lost the War without our Native American Warriors/Code Talkers.
If Custer had brought his Gatling guns the battle would have turned out differently
Yea. The Indians would have had some free Gatling guns
Many of the indians had repeating winchester rifles that had good accuracy and range to equal anything the rangers brought outside of rate of fire but they had hundreds of warriors vs 50 rangers. I think it’s possibly the rangers would fight to a draw.
Yeah, and if pigs could fly...
BTW, by ALL accounts, Sitting Bull, as elder spiritual leader, did not actually participating in the battle, but remained in the village. So, I don't think he gets picked off in the battle.
My team carried 390 rounds of 5.56X45 loaded in 30-round mags, plus a couple hundred more in bandoleers in the ruck.
Vietnam Era - we had 20 round magazines.
.
@@BobSmith-dk8nw yeah, no shit. The gear the boys have now is a whole different era. You're my regimental father, thanks. I wish we could meet some day.
What if Geronimo was there! The Green Berets would certainly hesitate!