Can my 100 year old Guillotine be repaired?
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- Last week my 100 year old sheet metal guillotine cracked in half, so in this video I attempt to weld the old cast iron back together.
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I’m guessing you just used steel rods?
To weld cast iron you need nickel alloy rods or low grade stainless steel rods or if they exist cash iron specific rods.
Also the welds were too small you needed about three times the thickness.
And biggest mistakes you used the tig and didn’t use enough pre heating, you should have been able to fry an egg over a foot away from the weld area.
The tig weld cools too quickly making it brittle. Flux coated welding rods are best as the flux keeps the weld warm and they don’t care about the impurities.
Agreed. What was done was done in hope rather than conviction. I have used both Nickel alloy stick welding rods and brazing to very good effect on cast iron repairs. In all cases the cast iron must be very hot, say 500degC, to get the best acceptance of the weld material and not tickled with a small torch.. The weld must be cooled very gradually over several hours for best results. Personally, I would have stick welded it with Ni rods.
To straighten the cutting blade why not heat the blade on the tension side to around 750degC and then cool with compressed air so as not to affect the temper too much? On cooling the hot side will shrink pulling the bend out. Do this more than once if necessary
^^ These comments. Stick with Nickel alloy rods is preferable. A lot hotter and use a root pass and then prob two beads cap pass. Stop and lightly Pean the bead every couple of inches both to clean the slag and stretch the weld metal. Cool slowly.
Being an ex metalworker I would have used an oxy and fluxed nickel alloy rods ...
Couple of thoughts. My grandpa would have forge - welded it. The whole bed would be hot, and with so much heat in the part, it has to cool slowly, you aren't just heating the welded area and letting the heat dissipate to the rest of the cold part. Secondly, tie the legs together. This was meant to be bolted to the floor, but you need it to move. That lets the legs spread, allowing the crack.
Cheery red aye
Put a center leg under it between the 2 angles
( Insert middle-leg joke here. )
I've had the best success with cast iron my using the oxy acetylene torch and brazing rods. Take a long time to bring the piece up to temp and then a long time post heating to bring it slowly down. Of course, I've only done a couple of exhaust manifolds, that bed is huge by comparison.
spot on mate.. I rebuilt a couple of cleveland exhaust manifolds to exit from the center rather than from the rear. In the oven for hours then into a Jig and two burners keeping the heat up and stick welding them with proper cast iron rods. Job done then back in the oven for a few hours until I turned off the heat. ( missus pissed off) But no cracks at all and still working after 5 years and no problem. The simple trick is to heat the whole thing ...heat soak relaxes all the metal.
back in the 70's I saw some cast iron machinery repaired. the expert they hired to do the work ground out the cracks, got the piece level and inline, then with large heating tip on torch got the repair area hot, then came back in and glued it all together with braze, covered all the hot with sand and let it cool slowly. old tech.
Jeff, when welding cast iron you need to pre heat the parent metal sufficiently, I’m sure their will be others on UA-cam to give better advice but in my experience the broken cast parts need to be pre heated and also the cooling down needs to be slowed as much as possible
The welds cracked because the cast iron cooled to quickly, you need to find a way to cool it slowly, same with heating it. I still think you can save the welds on it. But as long as it works the way you have it that's all that matters.
It broke already? They really don’t make things like they used to 😂
I don't think this comment gets the appreciation it deserves.
Maybe brazing with silicon bronze could work better?
TIG won’t work, you need the proper Cast Iron weld sticks for an Arc welder (MAG). Your welds will fail, I would make a much more beefy well braced frame, weld all the wrought iron pieces together but just bold to the cast bed.
Wounding when a brilliantly useful bit of kit like that breaks.
i dont think that 2mins with the propane torch is going to help, you need that whole thing steaming hot, like oxy hot.
The coefficient of expansion of steel and iron are very different. You should have used Castilan rods or dissimilar metal rods which are wrought iron. Hope you get away with it. Put a leg under the crack.
Good to see you tried to save her. Cast is so frustrating to weld just when you think you got it "ping" . I'm old enough the shop I worked in used asbestos to cool cast welds! Even heating and cooling is key and even that is fingers crossed. Hopefully you get some more use out of her.
Should have used high nickel mma rods. Weld a bit then peen it to stress relieve as you go. Pre heat and slow cool which you got. Not easy, I always handed my cast iron welding to a professional.
JEFF MY FRIEND learn to heat shrink! man so simple to get that straight and then re-harden the edge. honestly should have brass rod brazed it. I understand you may just not know how to do these things. I cant do some of the things you can so all good.
Put a centre leg under it to stop it drooping, also those big nuts on the end, can you run some heavy (M20) all thread rod through them under the bed and out each side to pull the bed together?
You can add extra steel under it as structure....go down to legs...across legs to secure them from spreading apart and under the bed to keep it level ..for another 100 years.... The design is the problem with that large cavity in middle added to your not bolting it down solidly to floor....and being mechanically operated it is too much stress and it bent from improper design and support...
Plus?? Who knows what happened in the Past...maybe it got dropped and started the crack? Or misused it's entire Life....it is repaireable...but not just by welding alone...you need to beef it up...underneath...that will stop further damage the best and cheapest way ..if you need it mobile..make a sturdy base that can't bend those legs out again!!
Is your floor Flat???
Jeff, since you are a man of some several talents, you can appreciate this; although I was primarily trained as a plumber, I was also cross trained as a fitter. Personally, I don't weld for s...... bc I am very light sensitive. At any rate, the welders I worked with approached welding cast iron with a lot more pre heat than it looked like you were doing. They were heating to at least dull cherry, then welding that area and leaving sand heated over a rosette shoveled on. Also, welding patch areas no bigger than they could heat up and weld while hot. Lots of stopping and starting and overlap. If you have enough area you can work more continuously, your project might have wanted a couple of days on and off. One of the welders I fitted for welded up some engine heads (Chevy 396 cid) I had over enthusiastically ported. The heads were great- I blew it up 20 K and lots of hard acceleration later. The heads were the only part worth selling. Slow and lotsa heat seemed to be the ticket. And I for one am very happy to see you put down the effort to save that old cherry. I'm thinking your max angle iron will do more good than the welds that have cracked. Oh, and some soft iron rod- wire coat hangers (strip the paint off!) rather than welding rods designed for welding steel. But something made from iron wire rather than a steel product. Missed the Missus! PS Read Anom Amos below- he and responders are talking from the working end of the welder. These would be the people to see about fixing the crack of dawn or anything less. I would agree that getting it all hot and keeping it hot at one time would have both been best and hardest. And slow on the cool- real slow. FR
Welding cast iron pieces almost daily at the machine shop I work in. I reckon its all in the welding proccess with cast pieces. I've had a lot or succesful repairs using the nickel rods as others said, but you wanna weld nice and hot with them, like 10% hotter then when they re burning nice, if you know what I mean? Also grinding the weld prep back after a nice hot root gets rid of the impurities a lot. Then another hot pass lays really nice...
Preheat the whole thing as much you can. Ditch the mapp bottles, they are a waste of time and money. Get a propper oxy/acetelene set, you'll never look at a mapp p.o.s. again lol.
Hey give it another go! Grind it back and reweld! It'll be much cleaner to weld this time around...
Its never a waste of time...
For future reference on elcheapo cast iron welding. (Example this job)
Shopping list
A roll or two of heavy duty cooking foil.
Some large disposable baking trays
Two or three cheap deep baking trays with racks or more disposable trays and some perforated sheet steel.
Something that doesn’t melt or burn to space the racks about 40 to 50 mm from the bottom of the trays.
Charcoal barbecue bricketts
Clay type kitty litter or similar.
A high current electrode welder ( stick welder)
Two to five mm thick flux coated nickel alloy or low grade stainless steel welding electrodes (rods)
Some 5+ mm flat bar and or angle iron.
Method.
Depending on access and severity of break, grind the break on all sides top and bottom, if chunks are missing etc cut the cast iron back so that a section of flat bar can be inserted between the sides. You may also want to run some cross braces along the bottom intersecting at 90 degrees to the break, if so grind a channel and welding groove to fit the braces into.
Prep and clean all surfaces and prepare the insulation.
Insulation
Grab the foil trays and kitty litter and make up some pillows out of the foil and litter.
Put a layer a few mm deep in a tray crinkle up some foil and lay it on top then a flat sheet more litter about 15mm more crinkled foil flat foil a bit more litter then cover the tray.
Make up enough trays and or foil pillows to cover well past the area to be heated.
Grab the reusable baking trays and racks space the racks up from the bottom of the tray enough to allow air to flow around the barbecue bricketts
Lay out enough trays and fuel to barbecue the entire job area and more.
Start cooking.
When you can fry an egg you can start welding.
Keep the charcoals simmering and do a root pass with the welding rods clean away the slag and peen the weld
Do two more root passes as above.
Now do a heavy stitching pass completely filling the defect and going about 30% more.
Weld in your bracing now if you’re 100% certain that you haven’t warped the job or let it cool check it and heat it again to do the bracing. Bolt in bracing that can be used to align the job may be better.
For cooling place the insulation on the job and keep the coal simmering allowing them to die down slowly over several hours.
Should be brazing with a proper torch, mate. Cast is full of carbon, not contaminants. Arc welding on cast just makes the job harder for the guy who's going to actually fix the break to last. The bond between most rod and cast can be broken very easily and makes the base material extremely hard.
Keith Fenner has great videos on straightening bent shafts, brazing and machining.
You could also tig braze instead of welding.
Weld with a nickel rod.
Use I beam because its going to have a much better IC than angle iron. (Harder to bend even if same mass)
Glad you got it fixed but if it fails again there are better options for repair. Go getter done!
I have been very successful with brazing cast iron. I have brazed together broken exhaust manifolds on Alfa’s. I have not had a single failure yet. I have also used braze to add additional steel to the manifolds where I fill in divots that I then grind out of the manifolds. The materials get very thin. Still no failures. I grind and clean the surfaces really throughly first. Then heat the whole area with the torch prior to brazing. To braze that bed would require additional heating like with a propane weed burner or camping stove placed under the bed.
Total bummer. Such a cool old shear. Hopefully it keeps working for you at least. I would of thought that the Mig would have been a better choice than the TIG on this one.
I'm no expert when it comes to welding but I have successfully welded a cast diff housing using a normal stck welder and stainless steel welding rods. Cleaned the mating surfaces thoroughly with a grinder, heated it through and used short welds with lots of peening over a period of a few days. Weld, allow to cool slowly. Weld opposite area, again using short welds with lots of peening and slow cooling. This was about 2 years ago and it is still holding with no discernable cracking. Just my 2 cents worth.
Diff should be grey ductile iron, you can mig that stuff and ignore cool down temps
I'm glad you've tried to fix it and not just replace the lovely old girl! Cheers for sharing mate...
И в центральную часть можно вложить половину толстостеной трубы или цельную болванку кругляка
Jeff. To strengthen the bed even more the front angle iron would be better if you drill and tap the cast iron to fasten the angle iron in more than two places. In addition make the angle iron even stronger by triangulating it.
Ie weld a vertical piece of steel in the centre of the angle iron downwards by say 200 mm and the weld a strap from that vertical piece to each end of the angle iron. To form a triangle.
If you could also incorporate turn buckles into it also you could adjust the tension to get the bed of the guilo flat.
Do the same on both of them.
Jeff the guilty not being bolted to your floor allows the bed feet to spread, thus dressing the bed, hehe cracking across the middle ,
All kudos to you for trying. You might be better off stick welding to get some real penetration. Welding cast iron is a real bastard.
What about a H/D frame underneath the crack to support it. Thus taking the weight from either side of the crack and transferring it to the floor.
Needed a lot more heat in the bed before welding. My backyard solution for this would have been setting the multi burner gas BBQ under the bed to get it hot and turn them down and off slowly to control cool the bed.
Jeff use cast craft rods with a stick welder pre heat the cast bed use heating torch while welding grind pout all the old weld you did weld in 1in sections at a time then peen the weld use needle gun chipping hammer ie very the shit out of it weld the next 1in section continue until fully welded keep the heat in the steel slow the heat process over an hour after welding cover with lime or heat blankets keep the heat in as long as possible good luck.
Perhaps machine shop could grind the blade straight? If it's just few mils short?
Also shouldn't the cast iron be heated up to almost red hot when welding it? Also don't they use stick welding with sticks for cast iron? And if all fails, perhaps just bolt on from underneath some box sections to get it straight and stiff?
Jeff you have to super heat cast iron not blow torch it .....had to heat it up for at least half hour until red hot. It won't last like that......
Muricans would've broken out the jb weld and made a 4 part video series
And a next very nice Video with a Repair Love it ❤️👍👍👍❤️
@handtoolrescue might be able to trade notes with you. Might this be something that fares better by braising?
ALGUNA ÑAPA SIEMPRE HAY QUE HACER ,GRAVO AMIGO ,NUEVA VIDA A LA PLECADORA,,CORTADORA
Old cast, grind out your weld, go and get electrodes for your stick welder that are designed for cast metals (proper welding supply joints have them now) you may be able to save it yet.
Yeah stick welding is the best option.
Stick weld with cast iron electrodes, pre heat, and let it cool slowly covered in a heap of sand
Check out This Old Tony and his episode on Tig Brazing.
I did something like this a month ago with plans from Woodglut.
Охлаждать чугун нужно в паре с горячим песком
You could draw up a new bed in CAD and have a shop machine you one.
There are Nickel electrodes availible today to weld cast iron
Can it be fixed ? Ask an expert , like the king of France!
You should build a leg for the middle so that it doesn't bend again
Preheat then post heat so that the cast iron cools down gradually!
No fun facts with Mrs Jeff on guillotines?
Braze it,cracks were also stitched in the past.
I can't offer any advise on welding but what purpose does the deep channel in the middle have? Could it be infilled to offer more structural support?
To hold round bars, perhaps?
0.9 mil sheet steel is 0.9mm sheet steel right? Doesn't make sense in inches "mil" (0.002mm) You guys confuse me with the "mil" expression! :)
Mill millimeters.... Very simple
man if that is cast iron you have to fillet braze it
Leave the support in the middle.
I guess there's a reason a lot of cast iron construction involved rivets!
Hey its better than what you start with. Good on ya
Good job buddy! That thing is super cool. Hope the repair lasts 👍
If it is broke, do fix it! Nice work Jeff
Bolt a rsj on underneath the bed
Thanks Jeff for sharing
John Heine liveth evermore
chop chop
I’m not experienced in this but a gas welder should be able to work🤷🏼♂️ the ones they fix silencers/ manifolds with isn’t it
I propose a drinking game. Take a shot every time Jeff says "hope/hopefully" in this episode. I doubt anyone will still be sitting upright by the end of the video. Jeff, I admire your tenacity. Best of luck!
Oh No! That sucks. The best equipment is the old stuff but unfortunately, like you said, cast iron is so hard bond back together even with the specialised electrodes available. Tig was a great option though, keeping the heat low and as even as you can
Nice work Jeff
Coming from a boilermaker
I have welded a vice and a few bits of cast before
Lots of preheat and use 16tc low hydrogen stick electrodes
And heat it after to make sure it slowly cools
Nice work! Im sure you'll get plenty of suggestions on what you could've done, but good on you for having a go! Hopefully it'll make many more cuts :)
Jeff I was thinking generally, welding two pieces of iron together is a bad idea, you'll be better off with brazing,
Jeff, it doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to do the work, maybe a "strong back" made from heavy gauge rectangular hollow section right across the full width of the machine beneath the frame would also help...
It will probably crack again but at least that angle iron will keep it from breaking in two and collapsing on you feet. You could put a washer between the angle iron and the guillotine on that center bolt with the crack running through it. Then crank down the bolts on the ends on both sides. That might relieve the sagging stress by transferring more of the load to the angle iron.
Hi there Love the channel the Alfa is looking so nice.
To add more strength to the Guillotine you should weld a pair of legs under where the crack is front and back so the centre of the bed can’t flex
keep up the good work
Temporary wins are still wins, especially when you fixed it yourself. The alternative is often pricey and you didn’t learn anything.
Here's a guide for welding cast iron www.lincolnelectric.com/en-au/support/welding-how-to/Pages/welding-cast-iron-detail.aspx
Maybe braze the cracks? I’ve always brazed cast iron and some have been successful!
I have welded a bit of cast iron the last was a victorine lawn roller and victorine cast fence in England and did it without the aid of my big oxi acetylene torch alls I had was a hand torch like what you used its just not enough heat but I made it work after the weld I rapped it with house insulation no cracks. now what did weld it with? hi Nickle rod or the best is still good old brass or bronze rod. mild steel will never hold.
lol
is that scalloped out section in the centre needed for anything? i'd be cutting some thick tube(bollard etc) that fits that section and bolting it in every 100mm or so, and bolting that front plate with a couple more bolts unless someone has a reason not to.
Misquoting the old Boris Karloff movie: "She lives!!"
100% for effort, as always.
The greatest success I’ve had welding cast was gas welding which puts a huge amount of heat into the parent metal and makes it easier to control the cooling process 👍🏻
You need to put the whole job in an oven before welding and only when it has come to temp do you weld it. Then the job needs to slowly cool down over a number of days in an oven.
It may not be perfect, but it's Home ̶B̶u̶i̶l̶t̶ Repaired 😉
👍👍👍👍
look up vulcan nasty cast, that seems to be the go to for welding cast iron stuff
Aw, that sucks mate 😥 I shall cross me fingers for you that it gives many more years of service 👍
That angle iron is good enough. I bet it only last's 85 years.
Cold stich
g'day Jeff, could i be so blunt and ask how much and from where you got the tig and what gas it uses and from whom you get it ? thnx from WA
It is a Bosweld AC/DC TIG using straight Argon.
We had one in the workshop that was as old did exactly the same in the trough area . We drilled and tapped one side and bolted both dude back together as as yours
the cast was so porous. Then bolted it from front to back I think 4 inches away from the crack with long rods to support/ reinforce it from front to rear .
You've kept it alive
That trough shouldn't exist
Good on you for having a go
Enjoy watching your channel
Bronze welding should hold better
You are one determined guy
It possibly broke because it wasn’t sitting completely flat at sometime in its 100years
I’m thinking it was probably stressed during transportation.
@@scanspeak00 . That wouldn’t be enough unless it was dropped from the back of a truck.
Repetitive use while not fully stabilised is the probable cause.
hello
Wow! Now you know why you got it. It was rooted beforehand. I want to write my response but I don't want to give away what happens. Surprise is all I can write.