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I brought a summer sleeping pad by mistake to camp overnight in -20C - What I learned...
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- Опубліковано 19 лют 2024
- Gear Links
Thermarest Polar Ranger (Long) Sleeping bag shorturl.at/jDI14
Enlightened Equipment Revelation Quilt Regular/Long rb.gy/co6gvm
Trekology UL80 Sleep pad rb.gy/co6gvm
Thermarest NeoAir Xtherm Sleep pad rb.gy/5ygm28
Hi folks!
Welcome to a follow-up video to my recent coldest overnight winter camping adventure!
To keep me warm, I had originally planned to use a Thermarest NeoAir Xtherm sleeping pad plus a half-inch foam mat under me, combined with a Thermarest Polar Ranger sleeping bag and topped by a Revelation quilt from Enlightened Equipment.
Unfortunately, this combination proved to be unsuccessful in keeping me warm and cozy all night, mainly because I forgot to check my gear before leaving and brought my Trekology UL80 sleeping pad instead, one that has a very low insulative r-value and is essentially, a pad only suitable for summer.
I wasn't in any real danger as my sleeping bag is rated to a limit of -30C and my car was only a 20-minute walk away, in case things really got bad.
In this video, I show three attempts to maintain warmth with the gear I had and whether they passed or failed. I also discuss how improving insulation, as well as reflecting radiated heat using Reflectix is also useful in gaining a few extra degrees of heat within the sleeping bag. Such temperature gains could mean having a warm night, a miserable night, or potentially avoiding hypothermia, frostbite or worse.
So, I think that I was lucky it was only an uncomfortable night. Nevertheless, it was a useful learning experience, given that even had I brought my better sleeping pad, it might have leaked or been punctured and I would have been in a similar position.
NB!
I am not a survivalist, nor any type of bushcraft expert, let alone any sort of adrenaline junkie. I definitely do not recommend trying this out for fun. I have a pretty good set of gear and had just enough to get me through the night. At such temperatures, frostbite and hypothermia are very real hazards and NOT to be taken lightly!
For the record, I purchased all of the gear in my videos with my own money and my opinions are solely my own.
The footage was filmed with a GoPro 11.
Come along with me on my adventures! You are most welcome! Check out my other videos, maybe give me a like, and consider subscribing.
All the best, Kevin. :-)
Interesting experiment Kevin. Especially the reflective layer inside the sleeping bag. One point though, cold is absence of heat. We feel cold as the heat is being withdrawn from our bodies to heat a colder surface or air. It's not possible to reflect cold away from our bodies, only to reflect heat back to us. Therefore, if there's only one reflective surface it would be better facing towards your body.
Ok, never thought of it like that. I was thinking more about reflecting the cold that is outside the sleeping bag away rather than any cold air inside. So, having reflective surfaces on both sides would serve a dual purpose.
It's interesting to have your perspective. I looked it up and yes, you're right. Reflectix does nothing for cold, only radiates heat.
@@snowcelt You can only reflect heat not cold. Heat is a type of energy, cold is just something without heat energy
@@driver3899 I have found this out via the comments, thank you. I guess it is a case of experiencing warmth due to the presence of the Reflectix but not initially understanding the physics of the experience.
@@snowcelt Yeah its really not what you expect. I enjoyed your video, very interesting to see your combinations and different ideas!
You need 3-4 “ of compressed pine bows just 3 “ before compressing will not work. a good closed cell matt on top of the bows should give the thermal insulation. Just goes to show way it is important to have the right equipment and training . Thanks for your perspective. Stay safe out there.
Yes. Bearing in mind that'd need that cold air pillow, mean, mat, removing as in my mind it's a big heat sink negating all insulation properties of the pine system.
I like the way you tried all different things. Its important to remember that all the different types of insulation are trying to do the same thing, slow down the heat being lost from your body into the cold night air.
Sleeping bags cannot generate any warmth on their own they just hold in whatever heat you put in them, an easy way to tip the scales into getting a warm nights sleep is to add more warmth into the sleeping bag with you.
Have a hot drink and do some exercise before you get in. Fill a 1L Nalgene water bottle with hot water and put a sock over it to slow down its heat release then put it in the bottom of your sleeping bag by your feet. It slowly diffuses the warmth into your bag all night long.
One thing to watch out for with things like reflectix and foam on top of you while you sleep. Your body releases water vapour all the time, the modern materials we have let that moisture out of your clothing and out of the sleeping bag (why you often end up with a thin layer of ice on it in the morning) so if you put a barrier like reflectix or a foam mat on you and block that vapour from escaping it will build up somewhere, maybe in your clothing or maybe in the down of your sleeping bag and stop it insulating properly.
Waking up wet from captured water vapour at 3am in minus whatever temp can be deadly so just be a bit careful with that sort of thing. Same thing with emergency space blankets, they can get you into real trouble real fast if you don't understand all the elements at play
Good points! I think a piece of Reflectix with or without foam on top should not be larger than the torso to try to mitigate against the moisture buildup you mentioned.
@@snowcelt Yeah I never tried it but it would be a great insulator, you could be onto something there if the moisture build up is small or unnoticeable which hopefully it is! Great stuff
I have melted snow and filled up my 1 liter C NOC bottle and put it in my quilt with me
This is really interesting stuff! A lot of it was counterintuitive, fascinating that it worked in real world conditions
Thanks! I'd watched quite a few youtube videos about this topic but personal experience was also a good teacher.
Over the decades I’ve come to have the shiny side out and any insulation between it and me. But I never tried it in the bag which makes sense since the bag is compressed.
Enjoyed that, Kevin, and your candour speaks volumes for you.
You seem to have attracted a load of para-thermal engineers, too.
Anyone yet explained what can happen if you don’t check your gear before Scuba-ing(sic)?
Cheers Wendy! I learned at least that cold can't be reflected. 🤣
Something to consider when winter camping in extreme conditions. The temperature ratings on sleeping bags and pads etc are assigned when they are not compressed. As soon as your weight is on them that rating is greatly reduced. Imagine a 70mm deep pad, when you lie on it it maybe reduced to 20mm, under your pressure points, hence losing 50mm of insulating air.
When buying such equipment choose a much higher rating than the temperatures you are expecting.
Also use a hot water bottle, or strong water bottle to warm your sleeping bag both before and during use. You can reheat it during the night if needed.
Finally, never get into your bag when you are cold or with your cold outer clothing on. Do some exercise to warm yourself then strip down to your base layer before getting into the bag. It may feel wrong but it actually works. Think of your sleeping bag as a Thermos flask, put something hot in and it will keep it hot, put something cold in and it will keep it cold.
I was taught this by locals in Finland & Sweden and it has served me well for many years. Hope it helps. 👍👍
Thank you for the practical advice. Much appreciated. ☺
I can second this . Never wear the same clothes you walked in to bed . . Change everything . . Extract night clothing from a dry bag . .
Interesting. Great to point out your exit plan. Definitely not safe to stay otherwise. The first fail would be expected I think. The inflated mat, uninsulated internally, would be full of cold air sapping warmth. Possibly the foam mat and foil under the sleeping bag could do the trick vs inside the sleeping bag. Wonder if you tried that and if any difference? With the quilt over. Cheers
I think the foam pad immediately under the sleeping bag would probably have been the same as inside it. The only advantage inside was that it couldn't slip. The foil I'm pretty sure worked best above me as it wasn't being pressed against a surface.
I’m not sure if the science is there for “reflecting cold”. That’s not how energy works. There is only heat or the absence of heat and the transmission of energy from one to the other. It’s a hard barrier which imo is best suited to the heat source, in this case your body and having other barriers such as the air pad to slow transmission. But that’s just my hypothesis as I’ve not tried some of these products. I do have an emergency foil sleeping bag which I have tried both as an underlay and an extra layer around the bag because it’s so huge and both methods did assist but especially the all around extra layer. I have never had to face such cold tho.
Although it was an intuitive conclusion on my part, the physics (engineering?) don't pan out. You are correct. Cold cannot be reflected, only heat. Thanks to the comments, it pointed me in the right direction, and I could google it. Live and learn!
Correct 👍.
When you figure it all out you will not want to canp any more .
So enjoy it while it lasts
The learning is fun but knowing means less mistakes, a lighter pack and less "what the hell do I do now?" scenarios. Knowing also means more comfortable camping and hiking. Who doesn't want that?
Nice insights 🙂❄️
Nice video, just one thing, you can't reflect cold. Cold is just the absence of heat.
this exactly, and i want to add to it by saying that Reflectix reflects only infrared radiation and not kinetic heat and is thus even less useful pointing upwards since it'll reflect away the suns heat 😅
Cold does not radiate, but when sleeping under stars, space does not reflect any heat back either, and it is really cold. If you radiate your heat to the void, it somehow gets un suspectedly cold, I don't know almost like cold woul'd radiate in practice even when it doesn't. I am not the best person to explain, and hope someone does it better.
👍👍👍 .. interesting.
Yes, as others have already pointed out, 'cold' is just a state of 'less/er' heat energy .. a state that tends to continually 'suck' heat away from the heat producing source, i.e. the body and as such is undesirable in Winter conditions.
There appears to be great confusion / misconceptions regarding the properties of 'radiant heat' and the most effective use of 'mylar / space blankets / etc' and I think that a lot of people get into trouble due to this. These items only reflect 'radiant heat' (any direct contact between the body (heat source) negates their effectiveness at the contact points due to heat transfer due to conduction).
Since the body, in this case, is the prime heat source, the object would be to manage heat loss close to the body (the closer the better) in order to maintain an effective and desirable 'micro-clime' surrounding the skin / body. What happens outside that (temperature / insulation / whatever) does not count, as long as it contributes to the maintenance of such micro-environment at the body.
Radiant Heat, I believe (? .. under correction?), loses its effectiveness at an inverse proportion to distance and thus, to gain maximum benefit of any reflective layer, it should be as close to the body as possible, while still avoiding direct contact.
Just my two cents worth 😏 and if I'm incorrect in my assumptions, I gladly stand to be corrected regarding the science regarding .. as I believe that 'understanding the science' enables one to come up with the most effective solutions.
An excellent post and one would be advised to also read the comments .. there is a lot of good advice therein.
Thanks for sharing .. take care ..
Just curious Kevin as to why you are calling the ground the floor ? The Brits do it all the time, not us Irish.
My mother was English so I probably got it from her. I never noticed that before ☺️
Based on experiments I've performed with DIY heat reflective clothing, the best location for heat reflective material is after a clothing base layer and then insulation. Why? Due to the heat reflective materials thinness. Heat is lost to conduction and convection.
Oooppps - god, that must have been an uncomfy night Kevin! Well done for trying the various setups that you did to see what helped. I once spent a night without a sleeping bag (long story!) and just had my thermarest xtherm - there was frost on the ground. The mat proved its worth that night for sure! I doubt you’ll ever forget the right mat for future trips now 😉
It was uncomfortable but bearable and it could have been worse. When I got home I chucked the summer sleeping pad to the back of my gear press and it will stay there so I don't mistakenly take it again. How are things with you?
@@snowcelt a few months time and the summer mat might get out to play again! 🤞 I’m doing well thanks - recovering pretty well (I think!) 😉
@MiriamKennedy That's great to hear! ☺️
Many have commented that cold can't be reflected, however it's a distinction without a difference. Heat (and therefore cold) are transmitted by 1) Conduction, 2) Convection and 3) Radiation. Use of mylar concerns itself mostly with radiation, however as Thermarest knew long ago and Nemo is now learning, mylar must be suspended to maximize its effectiveness. If mylar rests upon cold or body, it doesn't work as well as halfway between, where conduction is minimized. A second consideration for mylar is angles. For example, a flat configuration allows some heat to reflect away from the body, where (inside the sleeping bag) curved-around-body configuration reflects more energy back toward body. (more...)
The coldest radiant heat 'sink' is the clear night sky (-269°C). Optimal is therefore draping mylar above, say over a tent or over a clothesline inside a tent. Best not to block sleeping-bag moisture from escaping. Dominant heat-sinking is conduction from below though, so mylar should be suspended between body and ground. The reason mylar worked best inside the sleeping-bag was because it was curved to reflect more heat back toward the body. It's ok when sweating is not possible (too cold), but is risky in-general.
Foam inside sleeping bag is ok if one has the room for it, but the main advantage was placing the foam on top of the sleeping-pad to reduce compression-points by spreading out the load. Of course the main reason one takes a foam pad is to protect air-pad from spikeys and moving foam up the pile removes that benefit. If pad leaks, one may find themselves in dire straights.
Interesting! On my last camp (video due soon), I used an emergency reflective tarp draped over my hammock from the ridgeline, with the reflective side towards me. The idea was to make a sort of sleep pod. It was only -6C at night so I cannot really tell if it worked as I was anyway too hot in my Thermarest bag. But, I like the idea of keeping the mylar out of the sleeping bag and thereby avoiding moisture buildup. The tarp also acted as a nice light blocker which helped me sleep ☺
Reflective Mylar requires an air gap to work AND requires your body as a heat source. Buy an emergency reflective Mylar bivy and place that air pad inside the bivy as the air gap to absorb reflected radiant body heat and lay on top of bivy/pad. Will that inflatable pad fit inside your sleeping pad, I use top quilts so I am in contact the the pad.
Thanks for the tip! 👍 I know very little on this subject apart from limited direct experience. I'm always happy to learn more and your tip makes the road to knowledge a lot shorter. ☺️
Out of interest, how cold is your quilt rated to and how cold have you slept in it/them?
@@snowceltMy top quilt is 20f Down and I layer by wearing down ski pants. Like having the ski pants on when I have to get up to pee at night.
I have never camped in -20 as it doesn't get that cold here but I have camped in -8 in a Summer sleeping bag with I think a minimum rating of 5c..All not exactly ideal but a Summer bag is a lot better than nothing!
Indeed! A 5C rating in -8. You must sleep warm, I would be frozen! ☺️
I am surprised learning that the POLAR RANGER fails to keep you sufficiently warm, since it claims to do so as being advertized by its manufacturer with a "comfort" limit of -30 deg Celsius ....
The Polar Ranger is excellent at keeping me warm with its incredible loft. However, the loft on the bottom of the sleeping bag is not as thick, and my sleeping pad was insufficient to prevent heat loss into the ground beneath me. The sleeping pad was at fault, not the sleeping bag.
Any sleeping bag/quilt rating is only valid when used with an equivalent insulation layer system underneath.
Alway take a hot water bottle as well, use the snow to make hot water to fill bottle as this will help a lot
When i was getting into backpacking last winter, i was testing gear in the back yard.. i had a sea-to-summit sleeping pad rated for cold, fail me.. it was good at 10F but at 5F i couldn't keep warm on the pad.. anywhere that touched the pad froze, gave up trying to stay warm after 4 hours and went in house. Took 6 plus hours to warm back up... since tested same 0F bag to -20F on the xtherm and was fine... pads mattered alot more than i thought when fist looking at them!
Spot on! The sleeping pad is as important as the sleeping bag/quilt. It's a horrible feeling to be chilled to the core. Thanks for sharing! 👍
Great practical experimentation in a really cold environment.
All that I can add is that I have found that trimming, cutting down, an old foam sleeping mat to match the area from the shoulders to the buttocks and placing that inside your sleeping bag is a great comfort. Obviously I use a full size sleeping mat externally too. Happy Trails.
Thanks for your comment. Good tip. Is that below or above you in the sleeping bag?
@@snowcelt Oh ! I didn't make that clear, did I !
Sleep on this trimmed mat, either directly , or put it between the sleeping bag and your liner, which I think is the best mode of employment . I have tried sleeping with two trimmed mats , one above and one below but found it a hell of a faff, especially when getting up in the middle of the night to go to the loo. The top mat does not retain close contact with your body and moves around as there is only a light pressure from your sleeping bag on it and it does tend to attract moisture. Experiment in your back garden to see if this system suits you. Additionally, if you don't have a sleeping bag liner make sure you are not sleeping "commando" as bare flesh will become a little bit sticky when directly on the foam.
Happy trails and a good nights sleep, sweet dreams.
@@snowcelt Hello again , I should have said yesterday that if you are trimming a foam mat, after you cut it to the desired length you will do yourself a favour by rounding off the corners of the mat. This will make putting the mat in and out the sleeping bag a whole lot easier. Please let me know how you get on if you do take up my suggestion. Happy Trails.
@@clivedunning4317 Thanks Clive! I had already done that so the mat would better fit my hammock. 👍
This is interesting. I carry a 1/8 inch foam pad as a sit pad and also to boost the warmth of my XLite. I have always put it underneath my pad, as it stops it sliding around in a tent or protects from punctures in a bivvy, but I might put it on top if it's that much warmer!
I imagine the pine bows would have proved more on top of the Tyvek where they would be dry as opposed to wet under the Tyvek. The foam and Reflectix should be able to prevent any puncture to the airpad.
I've found that dry duff and leaves works well, and wet is worse than none at all.
You're probably right. It all adds up I guess.
@@snowcelt It's just a question of being buried in the snow beneath the Tyvek versus being dry and above the snow trapping some air.
It takes more than you would think before it's compressed.
A big plastic bag of leaves in a poncho under a hammock has made for a tolerable night below freezing. Tolerable, not toasty.
I tried this reflect-ix car window shader instead of under-quilt for my hammock in summer, I was so cold I will newer try that again. It doesn't work.
It doesn't work if you lie on it. It needs air space above it to work.
Maybe buy a winter sleeping pad , loved the experiment
I have a Thermarest NeoAir Xtherm pad which has an r-value of 6.9 and is rated as a winter sleeping pad. I mixed it up with the summer pad and brought the latter by mistake.
Very interesting. I'm now curious how it would have worked out if you brought the proper sleeping pad? I would like to see a video like that to see if the higher r-value pads make much of a difference. I'm skeptical.
I'll see what I can do. Currently, the weather in Finland is about +1C and foggy. I have used the Thermarest pad at -10C with no problems.
Many Brits and North Americans attempt to teach the art of comfortably cowboy camping in winter snow, but only two UA-camrs, Swedwoods and Erik Normark, offer a wealth of knowledge on the subject. Remarkably, Swedwoods remains silent in his videos, and Erik speaks minimally. Yet, by merely observing their actions, viewers are left impressed, thinking, "Wow, that was educational."
Thanks for the tip. I'll check them out. For the record, I am not trying to teach what to do, I am learning. What I show in the video was not comfortable, it was bearable, so there are better ways to cope with beibg cold. It wasn't cowboy camping, I was under a tarp. Finally, I am neither British nor American.
In the conditions, bushcraft comes in handy using the old and trusted fire as part and parcel of the 'sleeping system', thereby replacing heat loss to environment. The insulation from underneath as well adding barriers to convection loss like tarps or lean-tos and walls (often called fire reflectors). I've seen the Swedwoods, will have a look at Erik's channel.
Thanks for sharing. I will almost only trust personal experience though ;D. I wonder if those emergency blankets could be used as well
Cheers! Well, maybe my video will help to show how NOT to do things 😄 I think the emergency blanket could be used in exactly the same way. However, I have seen videos where the posters claim the emergency blankets made them cold. It had to do with the lack of air space. Folks tend to wrap the emergency blanket around themselves tightly, like a wool blanket, and it's not as effective. Strange that it's probably one of the simplest bits of kit we carry, but folks don't know how to use them or only ever open them in an emergency but never to train/test. 🤷
you cant reflect cold...
So I'm learning thanks! I did watch quite a few yt videos on the subject prior to going out camping and I hadn't planned on it turning out like that, so you could say I learned the hard way.
... not to do it?
Well, obviously. But also how to cope with the situation I found myself in.
So fucking what? Why do you think anyone would care?
Wise up darrell. Don't be a twat.
Wow. Somebody got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning. 😂
I do care
Then don’t watch.
I’ve been cold enough, on a x country ski trip. That I was throwing up, in the middle of the night. This was in the 70’s, we had shit equipment, and didn’t know better. My friends, possibly saved my life.
So test your gear, experiment with it, and share the knowledge.
We don’t all have 2k or more, to buy the perfect kit.
Sounds like a pretty extreme ski. I do some X-country skiing as well (traditional style only) and although it has been cold on occasion, it was never a dangerous situation.