Mike, I ran some tests on MPPT some time ago, checking the output every fifteen minutes over four hours. I was surprised to see the out was only about 0.4 volts over the wet lead battery, with high amperage. And every time the MPPT ramped up voltage, it still only stayed about 0.4 volts over battery voltage. After speaking to the lead engineer at a major battery maker, he explained the most efficient way to charge is nor 3-stage, but rathef to lead the battery voltage, but keep the current high. MPPT will do this. Not constant current or voltage, but reading and leading. Just looking at charger behavior for a short time (an hour or less) and with only one battery condition (75% full) cannot show you how busy the CPU is in a proper MPPT charger. There are lookup tables, proprietary algorithms, all sorts of differences between brands as well. Some will adjust every minute, others only adjust every 10 minutes, etc. But if it makes RF noise, that's a stopper.
Thanks, Mike! I know this is an older video, but it kept me from spending some extra money that may be unnecessary. I bought a Renogy PWM charger for a box I'm building before doing all my research on charger RFI. I was about to throw some money at one of the Batteria MPPT's after reading about MPPT's supposedly being quieter, but this just shows that's not always the case.
nice look at that one. I have victron and Morningstar MPPT ones. also low light on some MPPT makes a jump up. mine do. compared to PWM were the output is 0 and MPPT had some. throughout the day and month MPPT really adds up. for a small system for POTA or something the PWM makes less RFI noise. but there is a fix for the noise. put ferrite cores close buy controller both solar side and batt side. I made mine with big ferrite cores on my MPPT. took out a bunch of noise. 73's
I got the 10 amp version of that MPPT controller (same brand) for about $32.00 on Amazon. I set up a 20 meter ham stick on the bench outside and got the same birdies as you did. I then wrapped the power cord between the charge controller and radio with a bunch of turns through a FT-240 toroid and it 100% cleaned up the birdies. I'd like to try a FT-140 just because it's more compact. Just like yours, the Bioenno was clean. Still a win in my book for a compact controller that I plan to use with my QRP radio when portable. Give it a try, I think it may work out good for you also.
Older video but had to post. I've tried several PWM and MPPT charge controllers. EVERY MPPT controller (except one) produces hash and or birdies up and down the bands. The only MPPT controller that is quiet is one built in Michigan by DIY Solar For You. I bought the SOL model which is 20a. The nice thing about this controller is that it is a BUCK BOOST. It can take 9v DC and bump it up high enough to charge your 12 or 24v batteries. You can also put your panels in series and run up to 60v into it and still charge 12 or 24v battery bank. Last week I went camping. I didn't take any panels but instead, I connected the charge controller to the truck battery system. I made sure it was only connected while the truck was running. I got a nice 20 amp charge coming from the truck into my LifePo4 battery bank. By the time I got home, the entire battery bank was fully charged and the charge controller was sitting in standby - 0 amps. I absolutely love this new configuration. Now I need to set it up so that a relay turns on and energizes the current coming from the truck only when the engine is running and switches over to a solar panel input when the truck is not running. I'm building this system to eventually put into a camper van build.
I know the idea is to have the solar charger in or near the battery box. Just wondering what the RF is when you move the solar charger away from the radio and how far before the RF goes away? Thanks for your videos and keep on hamming!
Used a Victron 100/50 MPPT on my boat. During daytime 20 and 17m was useless. Was advised to switch to a PWM regulator. All the. noise was gone. A little less charge power but that was an acceptable tradeoff. 73s LA5ZO
I have seen that on other setups before. Interesting as I have an off road camper with a high end Victron MPPT controller, 3kw Victron Multipass Inverter, and 300AH Battle Born Lithium. A few weeks ago I tried nearly the same test looking at how noisy my trailer was going to be with my IC-705 and EFHW on a 25 foot telescoping pole on the tung of the trailer. I was operating on the inside of the trailer and had a perfectly silent noise floor with everything running. The only difference was I was powering my radio off a separate Bioenno battery not connected to the trailer. I wonder if having the battery isolated would make a difference? Although that wouldn't do much for charging, lol
The MPPT vs PWM efficiency difference is greater when solar conditions are not optimal. Meaning slightly overcast days with the full sun fading in and out behind clouds, etc. If you put both types of controllers in optimal/full sun conditions then you will only see a slight (15% or so) difference. It would be a better test if you had 2 identical solar panels connected by each type of controller and 2 batteries at the same discharge level and left them out all day while recording the data. You’d find the MPPT will provide more charging current over the day than the PWM.
to everyone saying "just put some ferrites" I have done this on many devices, and many devices like these, and also inverters, etc... you can create a load and losses. Check all your volts and amps before and after adding ferrite chokes, you may be surprised about the losses. In some cases you can create a more than significant load that will cause significant losses/heat etc... Also, I have done extensive testing of both MPPT and PWM controllers, and in different configurations many times the PWM will outperform an MPPT controller. And PWM will create a lot of annoying RFI in the form of Ticking and Popping and different charging levels. You have to spend lots of time and effort (hours/days/weeks) to know what really works best for your situation.
Amen to that! My cheap 30A PWM just outperformed that Victron 100/50 on a small 640W (Solar) 12V (Battery-520Ah) setup. Normally, with indirect morning Sun, I can use a 1300W hoover on a SWI-Power, 3200W - 240V-50Hz Inverter to clean all my downstairs rooms, the MPPT only managed less than 1/4 of the space, and God forbid a cloud appears - I've learned that a PWM is an "Amp" Dump waiting to happen, and it is triggered by us, draining the battery. Mine gets down to around 12.2V, at which point my PWM is dumping 35A+ towards the battery bank and the drain on the batteries becomes very, very slow, staying 12,2V for up to 4 minutes, the MPPT just... Tracked with zero Volts to Amp conversion, it simply "Tracked"!! :¬/ I have just sent back the MPPT Victron 100/50 and upgraded to a 45A Epever PWM (More RF?) and am now adding a 20A Epever to the same battery bank to add a few more Amps - This is a very new setup and is still in test mode, but I am confident that this Paralleling of PWM's may completely stop the battery draining lower than 12.2V altogether:¬) - It's looking like 890W (DC) will run a 1300W (AC) hoover. Not many demonstrate what happens when MPPT and PWM's are under a real load via an inverter and battery bank, only then will people stop saying MPPT is better and more cost-effective. PWM's only start to really work when there is a significant drain in battery power folks, not virtually idle and certainly not with a device that takes less than 1 or 2 Amps. ;¬) PWM's own!
@@Dreadnyah I have done a lot of side by side testing over the years and have yet to have an mppt win my heart. That doesn't mean it won't work good for someone else. I do all kinds of strange things to my system that maybe some other people wouldn't do. I have my own ideas, such as I run my panels in a series/parallel array that auto switches to change the output voltage depending on conditions and demand and will switch between a 370v output and a 60v/30v output. When all my batts are full it will switch to series and 370v into gridtie, then it will switch back to a 60 and 30v system to charge the 48 sys, and 12v sys.
@@oldolfmann8927 WOW! Now that's a lot of Volts, why 370V for the grid, is that transformed to 240/120V? And how many Amps is that pumping out? , Ah, so the 48V DC is inverted and the same with the 12v system? Nonetheless, it's quite impressive. Auto switching is a new concept to me, that is DC panel switching?.--- With the MPPT, I tried Serial, Parallel, and both and yet still the MPPT fast drained my batteries and did not do anything in response to the battery voltage drop, it hits 12.2V and continues to plummet, whereas my EPever 45A PWM controller goes into a full throttle, 35 Amps+, @12.2V (427W) - The 12V rating for the MPPT was 640W and it performed miserably. I have since added another 250W, 10 Amps PV using an Epever 20A PWM Controller, and now it seems to dump Amps @12.3V (553.5W - DC) - I was able to Run 800W @240V AC constantly, that's only a 3.3 Amp draw from the inverter I know but I'm only using 5 panels @710W, I would need double that to run the MPPT in the same manner and quite frankly, I have no more space for more PV's. This humble little setup should, in my mind, the panels should eventually be able to feed or float to the inverter in full sun and only charge the battery when clouds appear. I will test 1KW and 1.3KW AC devices next for continuity, but I am sure I am very close to my humble 5 Amps required to keep my hoover running constantly, I am not a cleaning freak, lol. My hoover is a beast - This would also appear to have the bonus that the battery drain will be lower, so less taxing for them? In an MPPT, are we paying extra to simply "Track" data? If that is so, and there is zero amp dump, then is it not simply a giant rectifier with an onboard computer monitoring system? All the best.
@@Dreadnyah I can give an explanation here, or maybe more if you have an email I can send a pic. Anyways, i have several properties and each is different but they are all still connected to the grid, none are fully off grid, so... example here.... I have some 31 volt panels x 12 = 372 volts DC at about 8~9 amps, all in series but with a relay between each 2 panels. With all in series thru the relays the 372 volts @ 9amps is directed to my grid tie inverter (that's around 3000 watts) . It can actually handle up to 500VDC @10amps and it makes the 240vac for the grid tie. When the relays are switched it connects every set of 2 panels in parallel, for 62 volts DC @ about 50 amps, and that 60VDC goes to a charge controller for my dozens of deep cycle batteries wired at 48Volts. I have several sensors set up that monitor daylight and voltage. For example, when the sun goes down my light sensor automatically switches my home from grid power to battery power ( I have inverters connected to those batteries ). If the batteries get low before the sun rises (sometimes in winter) the low voltage detection will automatically override the sundown relay and connect my home back to the grid and of course when the sun rises the panels will be in the 62v configuration until the batteries are charged. There are a few more details than that, but that's the basics.
MPPT for 12v solar to 12v is somewhat beneficial, but where MPPT really shines is using 24v or 48v solar with a 12v battery. Not only is the charge controller more efficient, but higher voltage from the panel means less line loss in small diameter wires. With PWM or MPPT, the cheapest option is never the most efficient or RF quiet.
It would be worth doing a test with a battery that wasn't almost completely full to start. That shutting off was likely because the battery was at full charge.
@K8MRD That's a beast of a battery. I thought it might be full base on the center battery display and the behavior. If you pull 15ah out, the charge controllers will give it all they can give. Although, based on the panel you used, I think you were right about at max for what the panel was giving. Thanks for a great video.
So, basically a PWM controller is RFI quieter, than a MPPT controller. Right? Both charge properly. But, if your using MPPT controller, you'll be happier if you charge one battery, while operating on another battery!?
I wouldn't make that general statement, no. It's gonna depend on each individual charge controller and the quality with which it was made. I've come across plenty of noisy PWM controllers. But, I wouldn't want a noisy controller anywhere near me when I was operating. I would want a clean controller no matter what.
Mike, I ran some tests on MPPT some time ago, checking the output every fifteen minutes over four hours. I was surprised to see the out was only about 0.4 volts over the wet lead battery, with high amperage. And every time the MPPT ramped up voltage, it still only stayed about 0.4 volts over battery voltage. After speaking to the lead engineer at a major battery maker, he explained the most efficient way to charge is nor 3-stage, but rathef to lead the battery voltage, but keep the current high. MPPT will do this. Not constant current or voltage, but reading and leading.
Just looking at charger behavior for a short time (an hour or less) and with only one battery condition (75% full) cannot show you how busy the CPU is in a proper MPPT charger. There are lookup tables, proprietary algorithms, all sorts of differences between brands as well. Some will adjust every minute, others only adjust every 10 minutes, etc.
But if it makes RF noise, that's a stopper.
Thanks Mike. I am glad you did this because I wanted to double check I was looking in the right place on the screen for the data. Good demo.
Thanks, Mike! I know this is an older video, but it kept me from spending some extra money that may be unnecessary. I bought a Renogy PWM charger for a box I'm building before doing all my research on charger RFI. I was about to throw some money at one of the Batteria MPPT's after reading about MPPT's supposedly being quieter, but this just shows that's not always the case.
nice look at that one. I have victron and Morningstar MPPT ones. also low light on some MPPT makes a jump up. mine do. compared to PWM were the output is 0 and MPPT had some. throughout the day and month MPPT really adds up. for a small system for POTA or something the PWM makes less RFI noise. but there is a fix for the noise. put ferrite cores close buy controller both solar side and batt side. I made mine with big ferrite cores on my MPPT. took out a bunch of noise. 73's
I got the 10 amp version of that MPPT controller (same brand) for about $32.00 on Amazon. I set up a 20 meter ham stick on the bench outside and got the same birdies as you did. I then wrapped the power cord between the charge controller and radio with a bunch of turns through a FT-240 toroid and it 100% cleaned up the birdies. I'd like to try a FT-140 just because it's more compact. Just like yours, the Bioenno was clean. Still a win in my book for a compact controller that I plan to use with my QRP radio when portable. Give it a try, I think it may work out good for you also.
Older video but had to post.
I've tried several PWM and MPPT charge controllers. EVERY MPPT controller (except one) produces hash and or birdies up and down the bands. The only MPPT controller that is quiet is one built in Michigan by DIY Solar For You. I bought the SOL model which is 20a. The nice thing about this controller is that it is a BUCK BOOST. It can take 9v DC and bump it up high enough to charge your 12 or 24v batteries. You can also put your panels in series and run up to 60v into it and still charge 12 or 24v battery bank.
Last week I went camping. I didn't take any panels but instead, I connected the charge controller to the truck battery system. I made sure it was only connected while the truck was running. I got a nice 20 amp charge coming from the truck into my LifePo4 battery bank. By the time I got home, the entire battery bank was fully charged and the charge controller was sitting in standby - 0 amps.
I absolutely love this new configuration. Now I need to set it up so that a relay turns on and energizes the current coming from the truck only when the engine is running and switches over to a solar panel input when the truck is not running.
I'm building this system to eventually put into a camper van build.
I know the idea is to have the solar charger in or near the battery box. Just wondering what the RF is when you move the solar charger away from the radio and how far before the RF goes away?
Thanks for your videos and keep on hamming!
In my experience you need to be quite far away from one of these if they are producing noise. Farther than is really practical.
Nice reviews.
Excellent comparison. I totally enjoy watching a fellow geek in motion to rid us of that dreaded RFI. Because white noise matters.
0:59......does it have Dilithium regulated charge controlling
Used a Victron 100/50 MPPT on my boat. During daytime 20 and 17m was useless. Was advised to switch to a PWM regulator. All the. noise was gone. A little less charge power but that was an acceptable tradeoff. 73s LA5ZO
I have seen that on other setups before. Interesting as I have an off road camper with a high end Victron MPPT controller, 3kw Victron Multipass Inverter, and 300AH Battle Born Lithium. A few weeks ago I tried nearly the same test looking at how noisy my trailer was going to be with my IC-705 and EFHW on a 25 foot telescoping pole on the tung of the trailer. I was operating on the inside of the trailer and had a perfectly silent noise floor with everything running. The only difference was I was powering my radio off a separate Bioenno battery not connected to the trailer. I wonder if having the battery isolated would make a difference? Although that wouldn't do much for charging, lol
Hi Mike,
How about choking the MPPT controller to see if the RFI is coming in over the wires? Stay safe. 73 WJ3U
The MPPT vs PWM efficiency difference is greater when solar conditions are not optimal. Meaning slightly overcast days with the full sun fading in and out behind clouds, etc. If you put both types of controllers in optimal/full sun conditions then you will only see a slight (15% or so) difference. It would be a better test if you had 2 identical solar panels connected by each type of controller and 2 batteries at the same discharge level and left them out all day while recording the data. You’d find the MPPT will provide more charging current over the day than the PWM.
I have done that type of testing many times and like I metioned earlier, I haven't found an mppt that outshined the pwm
Did you check if adding a choke could remove the RFI? Given that it's rather weak, it might just be enough.
I used a FT-240 toroid on the power cord. 100% cleaned up the birdies.
Tried choking off the RF noise from the MPPT SCC?
Big Geek is so Boss. The star of the video!
to everyone saying "just put some ferrites" I have done this on many devices, and many devices like these, and also inverters, etc... you can create a load and losses. Check all your volts and amps before and after adding ferrite chokes, you may be surprised about the losses. In some cases you can create a more than significant load that will cause significant losses/heat etc... Also, I have done extensive testing of both MPPT and PWM controllers, and in different configurations many times the PWM will outperform an MPPT controller. And PWM will create a lot of annoying RFI in the form of Ticking and Popping and different charging levels. You have to spend lots of time and effort (hours/days/weeks) to know what really works best for your situation.
Amen to that! My cheap 30A PWM just outperformed that Victron 100/50 on a small 640W (Solar) 12V (Battery-520Ah) setup. Normally, with indirect morning Sun, I can use a 1300W hoover on a SWI-Power, 3200W - 240V-50Hz Inverter to clean all my downstairs rooms, the MPPT only managed less than 1/4 of the space, and God forbid a cloud appears - I've learned that a PWM is an "Amp" Dump waiting to happen, and it is triggered by us, draining the battery. Mine gets down to around 12.2V, at which point my PWM is dumping 35A+ towards the battery bank and the drain on the batteries becomes very, very slow, staying 12,2V for up to 4 minutes, the MPPT just... Tracked with zero Volts to Amp conversion, it simply "Tracked"!! :¬/
I have just sent back the MPPT Victron 100/50 and upgraded to a 45A Epever PWM (More RF?) and am now adding a 20A Epever to the same battery bank to add a few more Amps - This is a very new setup and is still in test mode, but I am confident that this Paralleling of PWM's may completely stop the battery draining lower than 12.2V altogether:¬) - It's looking like 890W (DC) will run a 1300W (AC) hoover.
Not many demonstrate what happens when MPPT and PWM's are under a real load via an inverter and battery bank, only then will people stop saying MPPT is better and more cost-effective. PWM's only start to really work when there is a significant drain in battery power folks, not virtually idle and certainly not with a device that takes less than 1 or 2 Amps. ;¬) PWM's own!
@@Dreadnyah I have done a lot of side by side testing over the years and have yet to have an mppt win my heart. That doesn't mean it won't work good for someone else. I do all kinds of strange things to my system that maybe some other people wouldn't do. I have my own ideas, such as I run my panels in a series/parallel array that auto switches to change the output voltage depending on conditions and demand and will switch between a 370v output and a 60v/30v output. When all my batts are full it will switch to series and 370v into gridtie, then it will switch back to a 60 and 30v system to charge the 48 sys, and 12v sys.
@@oldolfmann8927 WOW! Now that's a lot of Volts, why 370V for the grid, is that transformed to 240/120V? And how many Amps is that pumping out? , Ah, so the 48V DC is inverted and the same with the 12v system? Nonetheless, it's quite impressive. Auto switching is a new concept to me, that is DC panel switching?.---
With the MPPT, I tried Serial, Parallel, and both and yet still the MPPT fast drained my batteries and did not do anything in response to the battery voltage drop, it hits 12.2V and continues to plummet, whereas my EPever 45A PWM controller goes into a full throttle, 35 Amps+, @12.2V (427W) - The 12V rating for the MPPT was 640W and it performed miserably.
I have since added another 250W, 10 Amps PV using an Epever 20A PWM Controller, and now it seems to dump Amps @12.3V (553.5W - DC) - I was able to Run 800W @240V AC constantly, that's only a 3.3 Amp draw from the inverter I know but I'm only using 5 panels @710W, I would need double that to run the MPPT in the same manner and quite frankly, I have no more space for more PV's. This humble little setup should, in my mind, the panels should eventually be able to feed or float to the inverter in full sun and only charge the battery when clouds appear. I will test 1KW and 1.3KW AC devices next for continuity, but I am sure I am very close to my humble 5 Amps required to keep my hoover running constantly, I am not a cleaning freak, lol. My hoover is a beast - This would also appear to have the bonus that the battery drain will be lower, so less taxing for them?
In an MPPT, are we paying extra to simply "Track" data? If that is so, and there is zero amp dump, then is it not simply a giant rectifier with an onboard computer monitoring system? All the best.
@@Dreadnyah I can give an explanation here, or maybe more if you have an email I can send a pic. Anyways, i have several properties and each is different but they are all still connected to the grid, none are fully off grid, so... example here.... I have some 31 volt panels x 12 = 372 volts DC at about 8~9 amps, all in series but with a relay between each 2 panels. With all in series thru the relays the 372 volts @ 9amps is directed to my grid tie inverter (that's around 3000 watts) . It can actually handle up to 500VDC @10amps and it makes the 240vac for the grid tie. When the relays are switched it connects every set of 2 panels in parallel, for 62 volts DC @ about 50 amps, and that 60VDC goes to a charge controller for my dozens of deep cycle batteries wired at 48Volts. I have several sensors set up that monitor daylight and voltage. For example, when the sun goes down my light sensor automatically switches my home from grid power to battery power ( I have inverters connected to those batteries ). If the batteries get low before the sun rises (sometimes in winter) the low voltage detection will automatically override the sundown relay and connect my home back to the grid and of course when the sun rises the panels will be in the 62v configuration until the batteries are charged. There are a few more details than that, but that's the basics.
Because of your other video on charge controllers, I ended up getting the bioenno unit
MPPT for 12v solar to 12v is somewhat beneficial, but where MPPT really shines is using 24v or 48v solar with a 12v battery. Not only is the charge controller more efficient, but higher voltage from the panel means less line loss in small diameter wires. With PWM or MPPT, the cheapest option is never the most efficient or RF quiet.
I forgot to mention. Nearly every PWM charge controller I've tried has been pretty RFI quiet. It's the darn MPPT controller that are terrible.
The MPPT was actually about 15% more efficient from my calculation which I think is significant.
It would be worth doing a test with a battery that wasn't almost completely full to start. That shutting off was likely because the battery was at full charge.
It wasn’t full. I drained ~7.5 ah out of it before charging. 30ah battery.
@K8MRD That's a beast of a battery. I thought it might be full base on the center battery display and the behavior. If you pull 15ah out, the charge controllers will give it all they can give. Although, based on the panel you used, I think you were right about at max for what the panel was giving. Thanks for a great video.
You should see my 300ah batteries! Those are beasts!
@@hamradiotube Fun for a loooong weekend with friends at 300ah!
Did you have an antenna hooked up?
In the premiere chat I mentioned I had a similar charge controller.... I actually have the exact same charge controller lol.
How’s it working out for you?
Looking at the waterfall, All I see is Blonde, Brunette, Redhead! 😊
With the MPPT you will see a lot more when the battery is not fully charged and it is actually producing
So, basically a PWM controller is RFI quieter, than a MPPT controller. Right?
Both charge properly. But, if your using MPPT controller, you'll be happier if you charge one battery, while operating on another battery!?
I wouldn't make that general statement, no. It's gonna depend on each individual charge controller and the quality with which it was made. I've come across plenty of noisy PWM controllers. But, I wouldn't want a noisy controller anywhere near me when I was operating. I would want a clean controller no matter what.
Yes, but PWM controllers are typically RF quiter. And MPPT controllers are more efficient!
Mike. I'm old and been an extra..K9DYN. I need to know about ft8. .can u lead me to some true info. I use a ft991a. Thanks in advance. Darrell.
Sure can. I can't help you with the 991settings though. ua-cam.com/video/jy7uUQV1wRU/v-deo.html
@@hamradiotube thank you. Very much.
The bioenno unit I got was $72.00. I needed a unit with a higher input voltage. Got a 48volt 72 cell panel on the roof of the shack
Thanks for the information. Enjoyed the video. Keep up the great work 👍73 AE4OY WILLIAM PEACOCK EM-81UF Blackshear, Ga