@wenrydiogo6602 I’m afraid your example about Portuguese / Spanish is not totally correct. Who said that these 2 languages are “mutually” intelligible? Being myself a native speaker of Spanish and not having had too much contact with the Portuguese language I can barely understand 40% or 50% of conversational Portuguese despite speaking 3 different romance languages. Actually, in my opinion even Italian would be more intelligible for Spanish speakers than Portuguese. On the other hand I agree with you that in a writing text the intelligibility between Spanish and Portuguese could go up to 80% or 90% as you were saying.
@@joandomene5710 it's the same with English varieties. In written form, American, Canadian, Irish, Scottish, SSB, South African, Australian, New Zealand, and standard Caribbean English all look very similar and absolutely 100% mutually intelligible, unless it's using some region specific slang, spellings or vocabulary which is rare in the standard forms. It's only when spoken that the different accents and varieties become obvious. It's the same case with mutually intelligible languages, they aren't pronounced the same or even spelt exactly the same otherwise they wouldn't be classified as different languages. It's only in the written form that the intelligibility becomes obvious.
No one calls the Irish version of English , Irish . The English spoken in Ireland is the same English as the language spoken in England or America they are like 99% inteligible to each other Irish the language otherwise known as Gaelige is a celtjc language , only words we have in Ireland that aren’t the same In England or America are slang words
Portuguese and Spanish are from different Iberian subfamilies and have their own identities and will not mix. There have never been many wars between the Spanish and Portuguese. To avoid friction, Spanish and Portuguese created bridge languages such as Barraquenho and Yanito as natural languages and languages planned for Interlingua. Portuguese and Spanish have countless affinities, but culturally, musically, politically, gastronomically, they have their identities and activities and they won't come together in one thing because they didn't work out together, simple as that. It would be the same thing to unite Italy with France,Italian and French yes they have a lot in common but they have their natural human identities.
In my Country, there are two language with similar condition like Scots and English. There are Malay/Indonesian as our national language, and then Minangkabau Language from West Sumatra. We can clearly see both are not the same languages, but the similarities are deep rooted from vocabularies (Minangkabau Language uses somewhat archaic or older words that no longer used in Malay or used only in poets), phrases (Minangkabau Language is also well-known for its rhymes and poems), to the grammar. Thus, Minangkabau Language often considered as dialect of Malay due to their similarities, even Malay/Indonesian speakers who have never heard their language can understand it easily on the first try, but found it to sound poetic or Posh. As far as I know, the classification is still being debated whether Minangkabau is its own language or a dialect of Malay, but it was concluded that both language(s) came from the same ancestor language and developed in different ways while also coexist and influencing each other (in one way or another).
RE: mutual intelligibility: I’ve been told there is an intelligibility asymmetry (a la Spanish and Portuguese), where Scots speakers can almost always understand English but Anglos can’t understand Scots well
For sure! I would also say that 100% of Scots speakers also speak English, so getting a true gauge of their "understanding of English" is hard to establish.
Also let's not forget that we should estabilish what things are borrowings in Scots from english and in English from Scots before even starting a "mutual intelligibility" test. Because borrowings can manipulate the result a lot, and by "a lot" i mean in very very high degree.
Scottish English is a dialect of English in Scotland and heavily influenced by Doric Scots but still a dialect of English today, tomorrow no one knows it could become another language. Doric Scots in merit and in fact and another language.
Linguistic family and subfamily differences between Scots and English: Yes, it is true that Standard English has significant influences from Latin, Greek, French and Norman, due to the history of England and the invasions and colonizations that have occurred over the centuries. So much so that English is placed alongside Anglo Norman and Anglo Picardo, Anglo Walloon in Romanic roots. On the other hand, Scots has older and deeper roots in Germanic languages, such as Frisian, Dutch, Faroese and Norwegian, due to the influence of the people who inhabited the region of Scotland throughout history. And the subfamily and sister languages of Scots are Orcadian and Shetlandic. Linguists often group Scots with other Germanic dialects spoken in the British Isles, such as Shetlandic and Orcadian, due to the linguistic and historical similarities between these languages. Despite influences from Standard English, Scots is considered a distinct language with its own characteristics and linguistic identity. Scottish linguist A.Heather studied and differentiated the fields of Scots and English, they are in fact and de jure separate languages. Simply consult your video demonstration of reading texts in Scots on UA-cam, see video of English parliamentarians speaking in Scotland and not being understood by Scots in the Scottish parliament and Scottish parliamentarians speaking in the English parliament and not being understood by their English counterparts and consult websites of Scottish language. Scots is a distinct and separate language from English at the basic, medium and advanced levels and does not have the same roots and is not from the same family and subfamily, they are neighbors, yes, friends, but they are not sister languages at the deepest level of the word, They are adherent but not related languages.
Have you ever thought of learning Haitian Creole? I've been studying it for about 80 days now, and I love it. I studied French years ago in junior high and high school. I know you have studied it as well, so though you should give it a try and tell me what you think.
I haven't actually. I've studied French for most of my life, and I'm a French teacher now, but I don't know much about Haitian Creole. Perhaps I'll make a video about it ☺️
Haitian Carribean is a globalized idiom and very bro and fun 😊☺️ of english in right, Many english, normands,frenches vocabs are found in Haitian Caribbean today.❤
@@ThePolyglotFiles Yeah but this just due to familiarity. Standard English is the best presented language in the English speaking world. We understand that which me have been most exposed to. In the north my accent is regarded as being rather posh however when I lived in Canada people had a hard time understanding me.
Don't dream about intelligibility because it doesn't exist at basic and deep levels. If a Scot speaks to you in Scots, Shetlandic and Orkneic which are sister languages are Scottish languages in their own right as a subfamily you will not understand, Scots is a separate North West Germanic language, English is an Anglic and Romanic creolized language. English speakers must respect and accept their sister languages as Northwestern Germanic languages in the United Kingdom. This is the deep and irrefutable truth that separates both languages. If Anglophones and Scots want to communicate, speak International English or Scottish English only.
Proofs that Scots is a separated idiom from English: Scots phrase: thon's a braw sitooterie ye'v biggit on tae hoose. Meaning in English: That's an excellent conservatory that you've built on to your house. Spanish translation: It's an excellent winter room that you built in your house. _______________________ English sentence: thon's a braw sitooterie ye'v biggit on tae hoose. Spanish translation: This is a good situation that you are interested in choosing. Indeed, Scottish and English are not dialects of the same language, they are actually separate and very distinct languages. Because if they were the same, the same expression would have a translation if the translations are different in the languages and because they are distinct, they are not dialects or sister languages, they are neighboring, adherent and different languages, never the same. ______________________ Addendum: Scottish and English are not the same idiom and not the same dialect and are not always intelligible, sometimes yes and sometimes no, the same sentence in English and in Scots means absurdly different things or even worse, completely unrelated. Unintelligibility and half intelligibility is normal between the 2 languages and generally the Englishman who does not understand Scots in fact and on merit.
I am Welsh, sound English and have lived in Scotland for 45 years. Scots often use a rhotic R, has different vowel sounds and words often have different accents on them. There are many common words which do not exist in English, this would include terms such as blether (a chat), but there are many more. Other English speakers almost always struggle with Scots, due to the speed, sound and different phrasing. This also is an issue regionally, within Scotland, with Glaswegian being difficult, even for some Scots. I went to school in North East Scotland, and my wife, who is from Fife has difficulty understanding people from Grampian. Just for fun I have attached a video of Doric being spoken. ua-cam.com/video/pvA4pid17Fg/v-deo.html
Thanks for the link! That was pretty interesting! I reminded me of the Scots I listened to for the test in this video: I could understand some of it, but then there were sections I couldn't understand at all. Thanks for watching!
Just sounds like you're describing a dialect. "Blether" just sound like the scots form of "blither". There are many many words in Northern English dialects that do not appear in southern English or "scots" however we do not suggest there is another language called "North English".
As a Welsh-speaker and supporter of Scottish independence and of the Gaelic language I've no strong view on whether Scots is a language or not. But two things stand out - they don't have a single standard orthography which makes it very difficult, if not impossible to get things like googletranslate, spell-check, official use in Scots. The other thing is that Scots seems to be unique European language community which isn't actively campaiging for what all promoters and defenders of other languages campaign from - media, education, official use and signage in the language. This is what Welsh, Gaelic, Basque, Breton, and Corsian (and many others) do and what Estonians, Slovenes, Latvian etc did. Why aren't Scots campaigners campaiging on these issue? or, don't seem to be (I'm ready to be corrected).
Interesting! Scots speakers seemed pretty passionate on TikTok, especially considering the video wasn't even about Scots. Not a bad thing, but they let me know all their thoughts. Thanks for watching!
There are efforts afoot in Scotland itself and Scots teaching materials are being developed for use in schools. Since Scots is a protected minority language under the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages, the UK is obliged to support and promote it, just as it is obliged to do so for Gaelic (and Welsh). The Scottish Government has issued the fourth five-year plan to this effect. The results of the 2022 Scotland census are gradually being published and the percentage of people with some skills in Scots has now risen to 46.2% from 37.7% in 2011. What most people don't realise is that Scots went from being the official language of administration and law in the 17th century to being marginalised and demoted to a vernacular once the King moved south in 1603, with more marginalisation when the parliaments merged in 1707 and English was declared the language of legislation. If Scotland had remained a separate sovereign nation, we wouldn't be having this discussion about whether or not Scots is a language at all. In the 16th century diplomats visiting Scotland had to engage interpreters who were skilled in Scots as well as English. It definitely was considered a separate language at the time.
@@alicemilne1444The tendency is for Scotland and Wales to separate from England as happened with Ireland, of course they will preserve a confederation and federation of British union but the tendency is for Wales, Manx Scotland and Northern Ireland to have a federal and confederative union with England but be separate nations. Since the 12th century, the Scots have been marching their way to separate themselves from the English. We are now in the 21st century, 9 centuries since then, Scotland is already mature enough to follow its path as a free and sovereign nation. 👍🤝🤝🤝🥂🙌🌴🏡🌹🌿
@Lampchuanungang As a Scot myself, I doubt very much whether an independent Wales and Scotland would remain in a federation or confederation with England. Northern Ireland is far likelier to reunite with the Republic of Ireland. And the Isle of Man is not part of the UK anyway.
@alicemilne1444 I understand and respect your point of view, you live reality and are immersed in it. But in fact it is heading towards disintegration, Northern Ireland, although not unique to Ireland, will be its own country, the Isle of Man is already a country and Ireland is already another country. Let's see in the long term, but if the (con)federative spirit really doesn't exist, the tendency is to see 6 to 5 countries in the Irish and British Islands. I only wish Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland well in this endeavor to leave the Kingdom, so that everything can be done in peace and in a negotiated manner, but apparently in this political and social cultural atmosphere between the member countries of the British union, it is really heading towards separation, Good luck to everyone there and to you of course. hugs kisses 💋💋💋💋@@alicemilne1444
"Gin I speak wi the tungs o men an angels but hae nae luve i my hairt I am no nane better nor dunnerin bress or a ringing cymbal." This is from the New Testament in Scots by Lorimer published in Penguin Books in 1985. Scots is definitely a language, with a rich lexicon of vocabulary but naebody speaks that wey noo. In practice there is a continuum from a few very broad speakers, to standard Scots spoken with Scots accent and sprinkled with Scots words - many cognates heid, hoose, haund, lug mooth etc., and canny, widny, didny, wouldny isny, havny, shouldny etc.
Scots is a separate language, it is of Germanic origin, it didn't develop from Modern English but rather from Middle English, with influences from Scottish Gaelic and Old Norse
I'm German and I think that the difference between real Bavarian (Bairisch )and standard German is bigger than the difference beween English and Scots....
Oh, hey, I got the same LOTR books on my bookshelf! It's a really interesting topic whether Scots is a different language. When I was in Scotland last year, I bought a Scots translation of the first Harry Potter book. It's really fun trying to read it, very similar to Standard English but with some more notable Nordic influence and random words I would never understand if taken out of context.
Absolutely, it’s not important. The only argument is “do you want it to be a dialect or a language?” “Language” “fine knock yourself out”. There is no objective reason why Scots is a separate language but the old Yorkshire Dialect (now largely lost) isn’t.
It's a dialect. One that is more distant but a dialect. The only reason Scots is considered a language is because it exists within an area on the other side of a border. Any argument as to why it's another language could be used for any number of English dialects and the reason those arguments aren't made is because there's no nationalistic interest in doing so. Even the rurals of Yorkshire with their old Scandinavian words and Brythonic counting systems aren't claiming a separate language.
Scots as spoken on the streets is practically unintelligible to standard English speakers. It never developed independently as an academic language and that is why it has borrowed so much vocabulary from standard English and is often regarded as simply a variant or dialect. Many English dialects are unintelligible when spoken as a vernacular because of different terms and idioms. Try to convert them into an academic language with technical terminology borrowed from standard English and the result will be the same as in Scots. If Scots had been revived on the basis of Middle English and its Germanic origins, it would undoubtedly be considered a separate language.
I imagine so. The mutual intelligibility examples seemed very formal. I think Scots with more native words (or "slang") would be harder to understand. Thanks for watching!
@@ThePolyglotFilesPlease do not keep talking about "slang" in this context. This is exactly the kind of pejorative stance that marginalised Scots in the first place.
Thanks for pointing it out. I don't mean slang in the pejorative sense. I meant that more informal language would be used in real Scots spoken outside of academic contexts.
@@ThePolyglotFiles But informal non-academic Scots speech mostly isn't slang. Slang is transient and usually confined to specific in-groups or sections of society (youth, school, clubs, army, engineering/medical world, etc.). Most people speaking Scots will use words that are colloquial and have been in the language for hundreds of years. But Scots is also a productive language and creates new words all the time and uses them along with old traditional ones. They are not slang as they are used by all sections of society and people of all ages. Here's an example taken from the Open University's Unit 2 on Scots vocabulary: "Thon’s a braw wee sitooterie ye’v biggit oan tae yer hoose." (Translation: That is an excellent conservatory you've built on to your house). Linguistic notes (courtesy of me): "Thon" is used when referring to something that is remote or distant from the speaker, either physically or emotionally or in time. It's a combination of "that" and "yon". "braw" = fine, good, excellent "wee" = not necessarily "small". The word has lots of different connotations in Scots. Here it verges into the meaning of "neat". "sitooterie" = verbal noun created from "sit" + "oot" (out) + "ie" (a noun suffix, sometimes denoting a diminutive but not always - see below). "biggit" = past tense of "big" (to build). Past participles of regular verbs are often formed with the suffix "it" or just "t". This verb has its roots in Middle English and in Old Norse. The noun suffix "ie" is used to form diminutives in Scots but also to form new nouns as you can see here. A sitooterie can be a conservatory in a house but can also be a patio or a terrace outside a house, pub or a restaurant, a pergola, a pagoda or any place to sit out in. There is no equivalent umbrella term in English. It's only when you get into the actual grammar, syntax and vocabulary of Scots that you begin to realise that it is a language with all the hallmarks of linguistic distinctiveness. The unfortunate thing is that when Scots words gain traction in England and pass into normal usage there, the OED tends to include them as "English" words. This is one of the reasons why Scots keeps on getting dismissed as a dialect by non-Scots, and unfortunately by Scots who have been brainwashed since childhood into thinking that Scots is "bad English". My father was belted in school in the 1920s for speaking the Doric (North East dialect of Scots). Some of my classmates in Central Scotland in the 1960s were also belted for not speaking English in class. Even though Scots was not banned from schools as thoroughly as Gaelic was (Rabbie Burns was still taught), it still suffered from institutional demotion into the picturesque. As someone who grew up with two different dialects of Scots as well as Scottish English and Southern British English, while also being a native speaker of French (bi-cultural family) and later studying languages and becoming fluent in several more, I will fiercely defend Scots from attempts by people who cannot speak it and have not studied it to continue the centuries-long belittling of the language started by the English.
@@alicemilne1444 The problem is most attempts to phonetically write Scottish come across as attempting to exaggerate differences, and ignore the fact that English itself is horrifically unphonetic and would look equally silly if reworked on a phonetic basis. That's not just true of Scottish BTW, have a look at various comedic attempts by speakers from English regions to 'write' in their accent/dialect (including my own Yorkshire). As an example from your sentence "tae" - why write it like that? Its "to" pronounced differently. Would a Scot say "to" and not "tae" if it was written as "to" - course not. Same with "yer"/"your"/"hoose"/"house". All accents can play that game, and there's boatloads of informal words in every English accent/dialect, plus Welsh English speakers etc. If we were to try to do that there would be hundreds of variations of every word.
It seems that there is less mutual intelligibility either written or verbal between Scots and English than there is between Swedish and Norwegian, which are both considered languages. I think the movement to define Scots as a dialect of English is being used to minimise Scotland, Scottish people and culture in the United Kingdom. “Soft subjugation”.
Brother, English is my 3rd language after Afrikaans and Zulu and I can understand 'Scots' without ever hearing it before. It's just a dialect of English with some localisms, It's no more hard pressing than listening to or reading a rough Yorkshire or Cornish dialect.
@@johnbraithwaite863 I never said Scots wasn’t mutually intelligible with English. What is said was that Norwegian and Swedish, which are considered as languages in their own right, have greater mutual intelligibility than Scots/English do. I know this as someone who has English as a 1st language and Norwegian as 2nd.
@@LikkieAU The differences between Swedish, Norwegian and Danish are dialectic in nature. We only call them languages out of a political courtesy, same with Portuguese and Spanish. Scots doesn't even have any of the requirements that those Languages meet either. It is not spoken by any foreign dignitaries and it has no cultural output other than a couple niche folk songs ('twa recruiting sergeants' is the only thing spring to mind.). On the flipside no one here would even dare to argue that Lower German, Upper German, Austrian German, Swiss German and Belgian German are different languages despite there being such a huge variance in culture, political realities, dialect and localisms. My Girlfriend from Hannover, struggles listening to a rural Bavarian. If any anyone can proclaim that their dialect is a language because they say it is then England has 30+ languages which are all 'mutually intelligible' and such a statement would be so reductive that the word 'language' means nothing. The only people who want to call it a language are bigots north of the wall who will do anything in their power to drive a wedge between the peoples of the island; be it linguistically, culturally and politically, because of their anti-English hatred.
The Northern Germanic languages, and their linguistic distance and mutual intelligibility, are probably a better comparison. Icelandic and Faroese are a few centuries older than Scots (900 vs 1300), but being on an islands, have diverged more than Scots from their roots, and are today not easily mutually intelligible between themselves, and not at all with Norwegian which is the closest other language. On the other hand, Norwegian, Swedish and Danish, have a large level of mutual intelligibility. These three languages started diverging around the same time as Scots, maybe a century or two earlier. I'd say that it's quite evident that Scots was a separate language from English by the early 17th Century, but have since then been heavily influenced by English due to the shift in power towards Westminster.
Scots has limited mutual intelligibility compared to Modern English, it has words of different pronouciation and grammer, the sounds vary so differently from English for Scots to be considered a separate language
You could say the same thing for many regional dialects within England. The reason why there isn't mutual intelligibility between stand English and Scots is because of a lack of exposure.
One can understand Scots at some extent, due to the shared vocabulary, Scots and English have Mutual intelligibility at some extent, some words I found hard to understand when spoken
They are run separated today and Scots along the time will find many others sources to be separated from current english. It's another idiom and expression many mates compares Scots with Norwegian.
I'm a Scottish English teacher living in Portugal. it's important to note that the scots that is easily accessible is (somewhat) standardized. Scots in the real world can be less inteligible. I have come across some strange things about the language and I can give you a few examples. In Dundee, where I'm from, there is a phrase 'ehl hae tweh pehs an an ingin aine an ah' which means 'I will have two pies and an onion one too' when spoken it can be quite difficult to understand. Additionally, further north in aberdeen, there are some interesting things to do with word order. For example, instead of saying 'what was it like?' you would say 'What like was it?'. Or in scots, 'fi' like wis it?' Grammar is also slightly different. For example, stative verbs are used pretty freely in continuous tenses. Within Scotland, sometimes I have a difficult time understand some people depending on where they're form. Lastly, one of my favourite scots words is 'outwith' which just means outside the perametres of. 'The shop is open from 0900-1300. Outwith these hours phone 1234567...'
Outwith means out, means external,outside. It's Scottish english, i like this word, but this word is not standard international global english or SIGE it's only Scottish english, to find this word only in a Scottish english glossary, wich is the one of the most english's dialetcs.
In today's world, the idea of a *separate* language is meaningless. Also, mutual intelligibility isn't a good measure of whether A is a different language from B yet, if North-East Scots were to be used in a news broadcast where (southern) English would normally be used, large numbers of people would complain that they couldn't understand a word. Normally, North-East Scots is completely (I mean, completely) excluded from radio and TV. Unless they've lived in the area or have taken a specific interest in the subject, people who comment on this subject have never heard it.
It's like Swiss German vs written German - different pronunciation and many different words. Dialects of Norwegian and Swedish can be close enough to be understood. Hawaiian Creole English (HPE) and Gullah were recognized languages in the last census in the US.
Reading these comments, the most sensible points are those using Swedish/Norwegian, Spanish/Portuguese, Indonesian/Malay, etc. My question is, how much influence has British English had on Scots since the 1800s?
Spanish and Portuguese are also highly mutually intelligible but obviously two different languages. Same with Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Icelandic and Faroese.
Um, Icelandic and Faeroese isn't really understandable for most eastern nordic people. Icelandic and Faeroese people both learn eastern nordic languages.
Another example of sister idioms Afrikaans and Flemish, they're brothers simple but separated brothers that have high inteligibility and love between than as Piedmontese and Lombard.
Its a bit like in Norway then? They have two Norweigan languages, Nynorsk = "new norweigan", how is the old way to speak and spell, and Bokmål = "Book language" how is the new way to speak and spell! Bokmål is spelled as Danes do, but they pronunce it like Swedes do! Soo.. its actualy easyer and more intelligble to speak Swedish and Norweigan (Bokmål) forth and back then switch to English!
American english is a dialect of English english. Canada and Australia use whats called Universal english. (sure those people talk funny down under but its still english) Goidelic languages are a separate language . Old English doesn't even show up till around 500 ad . The Modern Scot Language is different than was spoken in 200ad. or even 1000 BC
Whether it’s a separate language or a dialect is a fruitless question, one fraught with a definitional problem. It’s like arguing whether billiards is a sport. Well, it depends on what you mean by “sport.”
Gin ye hae a hunner Scots spekkin' thegither fest steamin' in a bair it micht bi haird bit maist Scots wull tone it doon in professional an' foreign company, it's a spectrum inglis oan wan side an Scots oan the ither. "Separate language?" Ah dinnae ken!
Well, we can all agree that Scots started out as a dialect of English, as did every language ever started out as a dialect of another language. There isn't an exact line when a language evolved far enough away from its mother language. The definition is entirely arbitrary. Just like there isn't an exact line between species in biology.
Scots is not a seperate language to English gaelic is but not Scots it's a hang over from the northumbrian angle accent many many words in modern Scottish accent are used just the same as in old northern English witness geordie a half way house accent between the Scottish accent and Northern English accent
That's why it's a separate language, modern standard English is based on the recieved pronunciation dialect in London. Scots diverted from English during the 1500-1800 Great vowel shift. Which started in London, the places further away would be less affected. Like Scotland
Depends when you say Scottish English true its English dialect, never a separated language. However when you say and means Scots Dorics, Orkneic and Shætlandic, so you talk about northwest germanics idioms that are totally separated from english and and others anglians romanics idioms. Scots idioms are germanics a separated family and subfamily of idioms. Anglians idioms are romanics idioms. They different and oposites classes and families and subfamilies of idioms.
@@ReiKakariki mate irs not complicated. Scots is a dialect or a sister language to English depending on what your stance on it is. There isn't a right or wrong because regardless it will become a language with time
@@hadiisaboss5307 Yes, my mate, it's not difficult to understand Scottish, I know that in depth. Linguistic science is based on facts, not on assumptions and cultural digressions, Scottish English is the brother of English, in fact and a dialect of it like London, Scouse, Cockney etc... We agree on that. Linguistics is a science that does work with right and wrong, yes, that is an absolute and round mistake on your part, then you already demonstrate that you are a layman, especially because as a science, linguistics will not invade the object of study of other sciences. language, and other human and social sciences that are outside the field of language. Learn to be empathetic and put yourself in my context and accept the more technical information that I bring to UA-cam as a whole, not just for you. I manage this kind of science 🧪 🔭 When we talk about Scottish Doric, Shetlandic and Orkneic, they have been a linguistic family and subfamily completely separate from English for centuries. This is the family and subfamily of Scottish languages that are completely separated from English and have no relationship with it. Goodbye, you didn't tell me anything new that I didn't already know before you told me, don't quote me anymore, the exchange of information and courtesy was nice, but it's okay, I'm closing this topic with you, and there's no need to elaborate conversation where the flow of information where the exchange of information has already achieved its purpose. It was worth the conversation but okay, that's the end of the conversation with you, be polite and don't send me any more messages, goodbye, happy June to you and your family.
as I read it: it is a continuation of a combination of both anglo saxon and middle english. It has elements of both anglo saxon and middle english. the ae is there (and is an anglo saxon element). it also uses middle english verbs and verb conjugation (middle english). I can see it as a dialect (a continuation of the combination of both anglo saxon and middle english).
For mutual intelligibility, doesn't it depend on what the dialect of the english-speaker is as well? Like, if someone speaks Northumbrian English or other northern English dialects [or Scottish English, for that matter] they might have a better chance of understanding it than a speaker of American English, due to greater linguistic proximity. Though the closer geographically someone is to Scotland the harder that is to distinguish from actual familiarity with Scots. Of course, the introduction of this kind of thing [where you can have a spectrum of dialects/languages that are all mutually intelligible with their nearby neighbors but not with the far end of the spectrum - a sort of linguistic "ring species"] makes the whole concept complicated, and possibly the only real conclusion one can make is "languages and dialects are a fake concept"
That's exactly it. On a social level, a language is pretty much whatever you want it to be. The government of Australia could decide tomorrow that the new official language of Australia is Australian, not English. That's oversimplifying the issue, but this is the case for many languages around the word, even though dialects and languages exist on a continuum with varying levels of mutual intelligibility depending on a variety of factors. That is why it is so tricky to distinguish what is a language and what is a dialect, because in a sense, all languages are dialects, but some are chosen to be "official languages." Thanks for your thoughts and thanks for watching!
Here isn’t even better way to look at it. The Scott’s language develops in parallel with modern English. There is a dialect continuum throughout the island of Britain as you go from one village or one city The local language use seems to change ever so slightly The Scott was at one time dialect of old English and middle English, and in fact, there was a middle Scots that was almost mutually unintelligible to people who spoke English at the time What is happening is the modern version of the Scott adapted to people who also had to speak Scottish English or standard English in order to communicate in a business and cultural sense with the formal government to the UK So basically the Scott language development parallel with English and is not a dialect of English, but has morphed changed and adapted to function like a dialect of English with a high degree of mutual intelligibility, but there are significant numbers of vocabulary and usage that do not overlap with English will require an English to learn this vocabulary, and some of them are used to quite often in conversation of modern Scott This makes it a Separate mutual intelligibility was standard English
Yes, the west Friesian language will have whole simple sentences that are one for one with modern English This gives the illusion that it’s the closest thing to English, but of course it’s not. There’s a lot of West Friesian that would require people to learn a whole vocabulary. Fortunately, the grammar, the same or close and they have to learn new pronunciation rules, even when the words are written the same and sound almost the same. Modern west West Friesian is not as close to modern English as modern Scots There are dialects of modern Scots that are harder for a standard English speaker to understand and pronunciation
Scots *is* a separate language, however plenty of dialects of Scots and Scottish English qualifies for both languages. It's a dialect continuum. Think of it as a line. Official English is close to one end, Scots is close to the other, both have dialects strewn along the line, and in the middle there's dialects that could qualify for either. And at the ends you have dialects that's *clearly* different languages. I'm willing to grant that most Scots speakers probably speak dialects that could qualify for either language because of the heavy English influence, after all this is related languages and Scots is endangered. But it's also a separate language, where you'd genuinely have little or no intelligibility of some dialects. It's just that so few speakers survive of these pure forms that people think of Scots as only the intelligible parts...
English is a Romanic Creole language, English is the result of an intense and immense global mixture and miscegenation of Anatolian, Iberian, Celtic, Germanic, Greek and Latin languages. With the Roman conquest and the French conquest, English was completely Romanized and Frenchified, becoming Creole, Romanesque and Celtic neo-Greek. Due to these conditions, there is and would not be any way for English to be a mere Saxon dialect. Read the book Manners of the Language by Gautier de Doux from 1339, and see with your own eyes the medieval French founding the grammar, logic and linguistics of all the English we speak, get the book and see for yourself, don't take my word as a cage and like prison, take the test and see him for what he is. This goes from ancient times to our current age. Hugs see you later. Bye take care yourself.🥂🍻
Scots speakers know that it's a different language because they also speak English. English speakers who don't speak Scots assume it isn't just out of ignorance.
Scots is no more a dialect of English than Cantonese is a dialect of putonghua (aka "Mandarin"). But one does often hear them described as "dialects" notwithstanding the clear barriers to mutual intelligibility between the two related languages.
Greetings from Romania! It looks like a dialect. From my point of view, it is similar to the difference between the Romanian language and its dialects: Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian and Istro-Romanian.
@@ThePolyglotFiles There are not very big differences. I'm not a linguist, but I can say that between Romanian (Daco-Romanian) and its other dialects there are, first of all, many slightly modified words, such as instead of "fată" in Romanian, in Aromanian they say "feată" and there are many such examples. There are also words such as Romanian archaisms that are rarely used now in Daco-Romanian. Regarding the accent, it is less obvious that there are differences. There are also words that are difficult to recognize in the current Daco-Romanian, but in general at least three quarters of the lexicon is intelligible.
@@ThePolyglotFiles There are sentences in a row in which I can understand everything, but there can also be sentences whose meaning I do not understand precisely.
You cannot judge from this very superficial video whether It is a dialect or not. Scots has been studied academically and linguistically for over 100 years now and it has five main dialects of its own.
You said it at the beginning of your exploration of the topic: Scots and English are sister dialects of Middle "English" (There needs to be a more neutral term that allows Scots to stand on a more equal footing. It is NOT a dialect of English English). Scots must have dialects of its own, but English has many more - and, in fact, is famous for having so many for the area it covers in the UK. English swamps Scots in both number and geologic locations. Though not related to the Celtic languages, it is in the same metaphoric boat as them. English dominates and invades
Imagine if this debate was about Spanish and Portuguese with a similarity about 90% and yet they are separated languages.
That's a good point! Thanks for watching!
@wenrydiogo6602 I’m afraid your example about Portuguese / Spanish is not totally correct. Who said that these 2 languages are “mutually” intelligible? Being myself a native speaker of Spanish and not having had too much contact with the Portuguese language I can barely understand 40% or 50% of conversational Portuguese despite speaking 3 different romance languages.
Actually, in my opinion even Italian would be more intelligible for Spanish speakers than Portuguese.
On the other hand I agree with you that in a writing text the intelligibility between Spanish and Portuguese could go up to 80% or 90% as you were saying.
@@joandomene5710 it's the same with English varieties. In written form, American, Canadian, Irish, Scottish, SSB, South African, Australian, New Zealand, and standard Caribbean English all look very similar and absolutely 100% mutually intelligible, unless it's using some region specific slang, spellings or vocabulary which is rare in the standard forms. It's only when spoken that the different accents and varieties become obvious. It's the same case with mutually intelligible languages, they aren't pronounced the same or even spelt exactly the same otherwise they wouldn't be classified as different languages. It's only in the written form that the intelligibility becomes obvious.
No one calls the Irish version of English , Irish . The English spoken in Ireland is the same English as the language spoken in England or America they are like 99% inteligible to each other Irish the language otherwise known as Gaelige is a celtjc language , only words we have in Ireland that aren’t the same In England or America are slang words
Portuguese and Spanish are from different Iberian subfamilies and have their own identities and will not mix. There have never been many wars between the Spanish and Portuguese.
To avoid friction, Spanish and Portuguese created bridge languages such as Barraquenho and Yanito as natural languages and languages planned for Interlingua.
Portuguese and Spanish have countless affinities, but culturally, musically, politically, gastronomically, they have their identities and activities and they won't come together in one thing because they didn't work out together, simple as that.
It would be the same thing to unite Italy with France,Italian and French yes they have a lot in common but they have their natural human identities.
In my Country, there are two language with similar condition like Scots and English. There are Malay/Indonesian as our national language, and then Minangkabau Language from West Sumatra. We can clearly see both are not the same languages, but the similarities are deep rooted from vocabularies (Minangkabau Language uses somewhat archaic or older words that no longer used in Malay or used only in poets), phrases (Minangkabau Language is also well-known for its rhymes and poems), to the grammar. Thus, Minangkabau Language often considered as dialect of Malay due to their similarities, even Malay/Indonesian speakers who have never heard their language can understand it easily on the first try, but found it to sound poetic or Posh. As far as I know, the classification is still being debated whether Minangkabau is its own language or a dialect of Malay, but it was concluded that both language(s) came from the same ancestor language and developed in different ways while also coexist and influencing each other (in one way or another).
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing and watching!
RE: mutual intelligibility: I’ve been told there is an intelligibility asymmetry (a la Spanish and Portuguese), where Scots speakers can almost always understand English but Anglos can’t understand Scots well
For sure! I would also say that 100% of Scots speakers also speak English, so getting a true gauge of their "understanding of English" is hard to establish.
Also let's not forget that we should estabilish what things are borrowings in Scots from english and in English from Scots before even starting a "mutual intelligibility" test. Because borrowings can manipulate the result a lot, and by "a lot" i mean in very very high degree.
I doubt there's a Scots speaker who isn't regularly exposed to English since birth and daily or almost daily.
Scottish English is a dialect of English in Scotland and heavily influenced by Doric Scots but still a dialect of English today, tomorrow no one knows it could become another language.
Doric Scots in merit and in fact and another language.
Linguistic family and subfamily differences between Scots and English:
Yes, it is true that Standard English has significant influences from Latin, Greek, French and Norman, due to the history of England and the invasions and colonizations that have occurred over the centuries.
So much so that English is placed alongside Anglo Norman and Anglo Picardo, Anglo Walloon in Romanic roots.
On the other hand, Scots has older and deeper roots in Germanic languages, such as Frisian, Dutch, Faroese and Norwegian, due to the influence of the people who inhabited the region of Scotland throughout history.
And the subfamily and sister languages of Scots are Orcadian and Shetlandic.
Linguists often group Scots with other Germanic dialects spoken in the British Isles, such as Shetlandic and Orcadian, due to the linguistic and historical similarities between these languages.
Despite influences from Standard English, Scots is considered a distinct language with its own characteristics and linguistic identity.
Scottish linguist A.Heather studied and differentiated the fields of Scots and English, they are in fact and de jure separate languages.
Simply consult your video demonstration of reading texts in Scots on UA-cam, see video of English parliamentarians speaking in Scotland and not being understood by Scots in the Scottish parliament and Scottish parliamentarians speaking in the English parliament and not being understood by their English counterparts and consult websites of Scottish language.
Scots is a distinct and separate language from English at the basic, medium and advanced levels and does not have the same roots and is not from the same family and subfamily, they are neighbors, yes, friends, but they are not sister languages at the deepest level of the word, They are adherent but not related languages.
Have you ever thought of learning Haitian Creole? I've been studying it for about 80 days now, and I love it. I studied French years ago in junior high and high school. I know you have studied it as well, so though you should give it a try and tell me what you think.
I haven't actually. I've studied French for most of my life, and I'm a French teacher now, but I don't know much about Haitian Creole. Perhaps I'll make a video about it ☺️
Haitian Carribean is a globalized idiom and very bro and fun 😊☺️ of english in right, Many english, normands,frenches vocabs are found in Haitian Caribbean today.❤
Scots already has dialects of its own, it is a separate language
True my mate.
The tendency of Scots it's run for faroese and icelandic, Norwegian ,Frisian and dutch evermore and be totally separated from english
Your mutual intelligibility test was one way … I would expect all Scots speakers understand English
That is true. I also expect that all Scots speakers can understand English, and I also expect that all Scots speakers are also bilingual in English.
@@ThePolyglotFiles Yeah but this just due to familiarity. Standard English is the best presented language in the English speaking world. We understand that which me have been most exposed to. In the north my accent is regarded as being rather posh however when I lived in Canada people had a hard time understanding me.
Don't dream about intelligibility because it doesn't exist at basic and deep levels.
If a Scot speaks to you in Scots, Shetlandic and Orkneic which are sister languages are Scottish languages in their own right as a subfamily you will not understand, Scots is a separate North West Germanic language, English is an Anglic and Romanic creolized language.
English speakers must respect and accept their sister languages as Northwestern Germanic languages in the United Kingdom.
This is the deep and irrefutable truth that separates both languages.
If Anglophones and Scots want to communicate, speak International English or Scottish English only.
Scots in spoken form is so different in phonology and sounds of words compared to English despite the shared vocabulary with Modern English
So were and to an extent are English dialects
Proofs that Scots is a separated idiom from English:
Scots phrase:
thon's a braw sitooterie ye'v biggit on tae hoose.
Meaning in English:
That's an excellent conservatory that you've built on to your house.
Spanish translation:
It's an excellent winter room that you built in your house.
_______________________
English sentence:
thon's a braw sitooterie ye'v biggit on tae hoose.
Spanish translation:
This is a good situation that you are interested in choosing.
Indeed, Scottish and English are not dialects of the same language, they are actually separate and very distinct languages.
Because if they were the same, the same expression would have a translation if the translations are different in the languages and because they are distinct, they are not dialects or sister languages, they are neighboring, adherent and different languages, never the same.
______________________
Addendum:
Scottish and English are not the same idiom and not the same dialect and are not always intelligible, sometimes yes and sometimes no, the same sentence in English and in Scots means absurdly different things or even worse, completely unrelated.
Unintelligibility and half intelligibility is normal between the 2 languages and generally the Englishman who does not understand Scots in fact and on merit.
I am Welsh, sound English and have lived in Scotland for 45 years. Scots often use a rhotic R, has different vowel sounds and words often have different accents on them. There are many common words which do not exist in English, this would include terms such as blether (a chat), but there are many more. Other English speakers almost always struggle with Scots, due to the speed, sound and different phrasing. This also is an issue regionally, within Scotland, with Glaswegian being difficult, even for some Scots. I went to school in North East Scotland, and my wife, who is from Fife has difficulty understanding people from Grampian. Just for fun I have attached a video of Doric being spoken.
ua-cam.com/video/pvA4pid17Fg/v-deo.html
Thanks for the link! That was pretty interesting! I reminded me of the Scots I listened to for the test in this video: I could understand some of it, but then there were sections I couldn't understand at all. Thanks for watching!
Just sounds like you're describing a dialect. "Blether" just sound like the scots form of "blither". There are many many words in Northern English dialects that do not appear in southern English or "scots" however we do not suggest there is another language called "North English".
As a Welsh-speaker and supporter of Scottish independence and of the Gaelic language I've no strong view on whether Scots is a language or not. But two things stand out - they don't have a single standard orthography which makes it very difficult, if not impossible to get things like googletranslate, spell-check, official use in Scots. The other thing is that Scots seems to be unique European language community which isn't actively campaiging for what all promoters and defenders of other languages campaign from - media, education, official use and signage in the language. This is what Welsh, Gaelic, Basque, Breton, and Corsian (and many others) do and what Estonians, Slovenes, Latvian etc did. Why aren't Scots campaigners campaiging on these issue? or, don't seem to be (I'm ready to be corrected).
Interesting! Scots speakers seemed pretty passionate on TikTok, especially considering the video wasn't even about Scots. Not a bad thing, but they let me know all their thoughts. Thanks for watching!
There are efforts afoot in Scotland itself and Scots teaching materials are being developed for use in schools. Since Scots is a protected minority language under the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages, the UK is obliged to support and promote it, just as it is obliged to do so for Gaelic (and Welsh). The Scottish Government has issued the fourth five-year plan to this effect. The results of the 2022 Scotland census are gradually being published and the percentage of people with some skills in Scots has now risen to 46.2% from 37.7% in 2011.
What most people don't realise is that Scots went from being the official language of administration and law in the 17th century to being marginalised and demoted to a vernacular once the King moved south in 1603, with more marginalisation when the parliaments merged in 1707 and English was declared the language of legislation. If Scotland had remained a separate sovereign nation, we wouldn't be having this discussion about whether or not Scots is a language at all. In the 16th century diplomats visiting Scotland had to engage interpreters who were skilled in Scots as well as English. It definitely was considered a separate language at the time.
@@alicemilne1444The tendency is for Scotland and Wales to separate from England as happened with Ireland, of course they will preserve a confederation and federation of British union but the tendency is for Wales, Manx Scotland and Northern Ireland to have a federal and confederative union with England but be separate nations.
Since the 12th century, the Scots have been marching their way to separate themselves from the English. We are now in the 21st century, 9 centuries since then, Scotland is already mature enough to follow its path as a free and sovereign nation.
👍🤝🤝🤝🥂🙌🌴🏡🌹🌿
@Lampchuanungang As a Scot myself, I doubt very much whether an independent Wales and Scotland would remain in a federation or confederation with England. Northern Ireland is far likelier to reunite with the Republic of Ireland. And the Isle of Man is not part of the UK anyway.
@alicemilne1444
I understand and respect your point of view, you live reality and are immersed in it.
But in fact it is heading towards disintegration, Northern Ireland, although not unique to Ireland, will be its own country, the Isle of Man is already a country and Ireland is already another country.
Let's see in the long term, but if the (con)federative spirit really doesn't exist, the tendency is to see 6 to 5 countries in the Irish and British Islands.
I only wish Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland well in this endeavor to leave the Kingdom, so that everything can be done in peace and in a negotiated manner, but apparently in this political and social cultural atmosphere between the member countries of the British union, it is really heading towards separation, Good luck to everyone there and to you of course. hugs kisses 💋💋💋💋@@alicemilne1444
"Gin I speak wi the tungs o men an angels but hae nae luve i my hairt I am no nane better nor dunnerin bress or a ringing cymbal." This is from the New Testament in Scots by Lorimer published in Penguin Books in 1985. Scots is definitely a language, with a rich lexicon of vocabulary but naebody speaks that wey noo. In practice there is a continuum from a few very broad speakers, to standard Scots spoken with Scots accent and sprinkled with Scots words - many cognates heid, hoose, haund, lug mooth etc., and canny, widny, didny, wouldny isny, havny, shouldny etc.
Scots is a separate language, it is of Germanic origin, it didn't develop from Modern English but rather from Middle English, with influences from Scottish Gaelic and Old Norse
I'm German and I think that the difference between real Bavarian (Bairisch )and standard German is bigger than the difference beween English and Scots....
Oh, hey, I got the same LOTR books on my bookshelf! It's a really interesting topic whether Scots is a different language. When I was in Scotland last year, I bought a Scots translation of the first Harry Potter book. It's really fun trying to read it, very similar to Standard English but with some more notable Nordic influence and random words I would never understand if taken out of context.
That's really cool! I've heard of the Harry Potter translation in Scots, but I haven't read it. Also, LOTR rocks! Thanks for watching!
Absolutely, it’s not important. The only argument is “do you want it to be a dialect or a language?” “Language” “fine knock yourself out”.
There is no objective reason why Scots is a separate language but the old Yorkshire Dialect (now largely lost) isn’t.
It's a dialect. One that is more distant but a dialect. The only reason Scots is considered a language is because it exists within an area on the other side of a border. Any argument as to why it's another language could be used for any number of English dialects and the reason those arguments aren't made is because there's no nationalistic interest in doing so. Even the rurals of Yorkshire with their old Scandinavian words and Brythonic counting systems aren't claiming a separate language.
If you do come to Edinburgh it's pronounced Ed-in-bur-ruh, not Ed-in-bor-row.
Scots as spoken on the streets is practically unintelligible to standard English speakers. It never developed independently as an academic language and that is why it has borrowed so much vocabulary from standard English and is often regarded as simply a variant or dialect. Many English dialects are unintelligible when spoken as a vernacular because of different terms and idioms. Try to convert them into an academic language with technical terminology borrowed from standard English and the result will be the same as in Scots. If Scots had been revived on the basis of Middle English and its Germanic origins, it would undoubtedly be considered a separate language.
I imagine so. The mutual intelligibility examples seemed very formal. I think Scots with more native words (or "slang") would be harder to understand. Thanks for watching!
@@ThePolyglotFilesPlease do not keep talking about "slang" in this context. This is exactly the kind of pejorative stance that marginalised Scots in the first place.
Thanks for pointing it out. I don't mean slang in the pejorative sense. I meant that more informal language would be used in real Scots spoken outside of academic contexts.
@@ThePolyglotFiles But informal non-academic Scots speech mostly isn't slang. Slang is transient and usually confined to specific in-groups or sections of society (youth, school, clubs, army, engineering/medical world, etc.).
Most people speaking Scots will use words that are colloquial and have been in the language for hundreds of years. But Scots is also a productive language and creates new words all the time and uses them along with old traditional ones. They are not slang as they are used by all sections of society and people of all ages.
Here's an example taken from the Open University's Unit 2 on Scots vocabulary:
"Thon’s a braw wee sitooterie ye’v biggit oan tae yer hoose."
(Translation: That is an excellent conservatory you've built on to your house).
Linguistic notes (courtesy of me):
"Thon" is used when referring to something that is remote or distant from the speaker, either physically or emotionally or in time. It's a combination of "that" and "yon".
"braw" = fine, good, excellent
"wee" = not necessarily "small". The word has lots of different connotations in Scots. Here it verges into the meaning of "neat".
"sitooterie" = verbal noun created from "sit" + "oot" (out) + "ie" (a noun suffix, sometimes denoting a diminutive but not always - see below).
"biggit" = past tense of "big" (to build). Past participles of regular verbs are often formed with the suffix "it" or just "t". This verb has its roots in Middle English and in Old Norse.
The noun suffix "ie" is used to form diminutives in Scots but also to form new nouns as you can see here.
A sitooterie can be a conservatory in a house but can also be a patio or a terrace outside a house, pub or a restaurant, a pergola, a pagoda or any place to sit out in. There is no equivalent umbrella term in English.
It's only when you get into the actual grammar, syntax and vocabulary of Scots that you begin to realise that it is a language with all the hallmarks of linguistic distinctiveness.
The unfortunate thing is that when Scots words gain traction in England and pass into normal usage there, the OED tends to include them as "English" words. This is one of the reasons why Scots keeps on getting dismissed as a dialect by non-Scots, and unfortunately by Scots who have been brainwashed since childhood into thinking that Scots is "bad English".
My father was belted in school in the 1920s for speaking the Doric (North East dialect of Scots). Some of my classmates in Central Scotland in the 1960s were also belted for not speaking English in class.
Even though Scots was not banned from schools as thoroughly as Gaelic was (Rabbie Burns was still taught), it still suffered from institutional demotion into the picturesque.
As someone who grew up with two different dialects of Scots as well as Scottish English and Southern British English, while also being a native speaker of French (bi-cultural family) and later studying languages and becoming fluent in several more, I will fiercely defend Scots from attempts by people who cannot speak it and have not studied it to continue the centuries-long belittling of the language started by the English.
@@alicemilne1444 The problem is most attempts to phonetically write Scottish come across as attempting to exaggerate differences, and ignore the fact that English itself is horrifically unphonetic and would look equally silly if reworked on a phonetic basis. That's not just true of Scottish BTW, have a look at various comedic attempts by speakers from English regions to 'write' in their accent/dialect (including my own Yorkshire).
As an example from your sentence "tae" - why write it like that? Its "to" pronounced differently. Would a Scot say "to" and not "tae" if it was written as "to" - course not. Same with "yer"/"your"/"hoose"/"house". All accents can play that game, and there's boatloads of informal words in every English accent/dialect, plus Welsh English speakers etc. If we were to try to do that there would be hundreds of variations of every word.
It seems that there is less mutual intelligibility either written or verbal between Scots and English than there is between Swedish and Norwegian, which are both considered languages.
I think the movement to define Scots as a dialect of English is being used to minimise Scotland, Scottish people and culture in the United Kingdom. “Soft subjugation”.
Brother, English is my 3rd language after Afrikaans and Zulu and I can understand 'Scots' without ever hearing it before. It's just a dialect of English with some localisms, It's no more hard pressing than listening to or reading a rough Yorkshire or Cornish dialect.
@@johnbraithwaite863 I never said Scots wasn’t mutually intelligible with English. What is said was that Norwegian and Swedish, which are considered as languages in their own right, have greater mutual intelligibility than Scots/English do. I know this as someone who has English as a 1st language and Norwegian as 2nd.
@@LikkieAU The differences between Swedish, Norwegian and Danish are dialectic in nature. We only call them languages out of a political courtesy, same with Portuguese and Spanish. Scots doesn't even have any of the requirements that those Languages meet either. It is not spoken by any foreign dignitaries and it has no cultural output other than a couple niche folk songs ('twa recruiting sergeants' is the only thing spring to mind.).
On the flipside no one here would even dare to argue that Lower German, Upper German, Austrian German, Swiss German and Belgian German are different languages despite there being such a huge variance in culture, political realities, dialect and localisms. My Girlfriend from Hannover, struggles listening to a rural Bavarian.
If any anyone can proclaim that their dialect is a language because they say it is then England has 30+ languages which are all 'mutually intelligible' and such a statement would be so reductive that the word 'language' means nothing.
The only people who want to call it a language are bigots north of the wall who will do anything in their power to drive a wedge between the peoples of the island; be it linguistically, culturally and politically, because of their anti-English hatred.
Scots and English, is like comparing Afrikaans and Standard Dutch, which are two separate languages but are mutually intelligible
For sure! Afrikaans is an interesting case as well. I have studied it as well. Thanks for watching!
The Northern Germanic languages, and their linguistic distance and mutual intelligibility, are probably a better comparison. Icelandic and Faroese are a few centuries older than Scots (900 vs 1300), but being on an islands, have diverged more than Scots from their roots, and are today not easily mutually intelligible between themselves, and not at all with Norwegian which is the closest other language. On the other hand, Norwegian, Swedish and Danish, have a large level of mutual intelligibility. These three languages started diverging around the same time as Scots, maybe a century or two earlier. I'd say that it's quite evident that Scots was a separate language from English by the early 17th Century, but have since then been heavily influenced by English due to the shift in power towards Westminster.
Scots has limited mutual intelligibility compared to Modern English, it has words of different pronouciation and grammer, the sounds vary so differently from English for Scots to be considered a separate language
You could say the same thing for many regional dialects within England. The reason why there isn't mutual intelligibility between stand English and Scots is because of a lack of exposure.
One can understand Scots at some extent, due to the shared vocabulary, Scots and English have Mutual intelligibility at some extent, some words I found hard to understand when spoken
They are run separated today and Scots along the time will find many others sources to be separated from current english.
It's another idiom and expression many mates compares Scots with Norwegian.
I'm a Scottish English teacher living in Portugal. it's important to note that the scots that is easily accessible is (somewhat) standardized. Scots in the real world can be less inteligible.
I have come across some strange things about the language and I can give you a few examples.
In Dundee, where I'm from, there is a phrase 'ehl hae tweh pehs an an ingin aine an ah' which means 'I will have two pies and an onion one too' when spoken it can be quite difficult to understand. Additionally, further north in aberdeen, there are some interesting things to do with word order. For example, instead of saying 'what was it like?' you would say 'What like was it?'. Or in scots, 'fi' like wis it?'
Grammar is also slightly different. For example, stative verbs are used pretty freely in continuous tenses.
Within Scotland, sometimes I have a difficult time understand some people depending on where they're form.
Lastly, one of my favourite scots words is 'outwith' which just means outside the perametres of. 'The shop is open from 0900-1300. Outwith these hours phone 1234567...'
Surely outwith is a standard English word?
@@daviebananas1735 Apparently not! I've had some very starange looks when saying it outside of scotland.
Outwith means out, means external,outside. It's Scottish english, i like this word, but this word is not standard international global english or SIGE it's only Scottish english, to find this word only in a Scottish english glossary, wich is the one of the most english's dialetcs.
This debate is like is Meänkieli or Kven their own languages or just dialects of Finnish
I didn't know about that! Thanks for watching!
@@ThePolyglotFiles personally i would say they are dialects as i dont have trouble understanding them but there is clearly one way stream here
In today's world, the idea of a *separate* language is meaningless. Also, mutual intelligibility isn't a good measure of whether A is a different language from B yet, if North-East Scots were to be used in a news broadcast where (southern) English would normally be used, large numbers of people would complain that they couldn't understand a word. Normally, North-East Scots is completely (I mean, completely) excluded from radio and TV. Unless they've lived in the area or have taken a specific interest in the subject, people who comment on this subject have never heard it.
It's like Swiss German vs written German - different pronunciation and many different words. Dialects of Norwegian and Swedish can be close enough to be understood. Hawaiian Creole English (HPE) and Gullah were recognized languages in the last census in the US.
Reading these comments, the most sensible points are those using Swedish/Norwegian, Spanish/Portuguese, Indonesian/Malay, etc. My question is, how much influence has British English had on Scots since the 1800s?
Afrikaans- Dutch Norwegian-Danish
English-Scots
Or Norwegian-Swedish-Danish.
Don't forget about Serbian, Croatian, Montegrin and Bosnian 😅 Thanks for watching!
Is there any way to modify the second definition to make it non-circular?
Spanish and Portuguese are also highly mutually intelligible but obviously two different languages. Same with Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Icelandic and Faroese.
Very true! I've spoken about these languages in other videos as well. Thanks for watching!
Um, Icelandic and Faeroese isn't really understandable for most eastern nordic people.
Icelandic and Faeroese people both learn eastern nordic languages.
Another example of sister idioms Afrikaans and Flemish, they're brothers simple but separated brothers that have high inteligibility and love between than as Piedmontese and Lombard.
@@Luredreier maybe not in spoken form, but ive seen lots of cognates and similarities in the written forms.
@realDunalTrimp Wrong, Spanish and Portuguese are not highly mutually intelligible. People keep saying this but is wrong.
Its a bit like in Norway then?
They have two Norweigan languages, Nynorsk = "new norweigan", how is the old way to speak and spell, and Bokmål = "Book language" how is the new way to speak and spell! Bokmål is spelled as Danes do, but they pronunce it like Swedes do!
Soo.. its actualy easyer and more intelligble to speak Swedish and Norweigan (Bokmål) forth and back then switch to English!
American english is a dialect of English english. Canada and Australia use whats called Universal english. (sure those people talk funny down under but its still english)
Goidelic languages are a separate language . Old English doesn't even show up till around 500 ad .
The Modern Scot Language is different than was spoken in 200ad. or even 1000 BC
Scots has also influenced English. The following words have come from Scots: wow, pony, blackmail, minger, minging and numpty. There may be others.
Whether it’s a separate language or a dialect is a fruitless question, one fraught with a definitional problem. It’s like arguing whether billiards is a sport. Well, it depends on what you mean by “sport.”
Gin ye hae a hunner Scots spekkin' thegither fest steamin' in a bair it micht bi haird bit maist Scots wull tone it doon in professional an' foreign company, it's a spectrum inglis oan wan side an Scots oan the ither. "Separate language?" Ah dinnae ken!
Well, we can all agree that Scots started out as a dialect of English, as did every language ever started out as a dialect of another language. There isn't an exact line when a language evolved far enough away from its mother language. The definition is entirely arbitrary. Just like there isn't an exact line between species in biology.
Scots is not a seperate language to English gaelic is but not Scots it's a hang over from the northumbrian angle accent many many words in modern Scottish accent are used just the same as in old northern English witness geordie a half way house accent between the Scottish accent and Northern English accent
That's why it's a separate language, modern standard English is based on the recieved pronunciation dialect in London. Scots diverted from English during the 1500-1800 Great vowel shift. Which started in London, the places further away would be less affected. Like Scotland
Depends when you say Scottish English true its English dialect, never a separated language.
However when you say and means Scots Dorics, Orkneic and Shætlandic, so you talk about northwest germanics idioms that are totally separated from english and and others anglians romanics idioms.
Scots idioms are germanics a separated family and subfamily of idioms.
Anglians idioms are romanics idioms.
They different and oposites classes and families and subfamilies of idioms.
@@ReiKakariki mate irs not complicated. Scots is a dialect or a sister language to English depending on what your stance on it is. There isn't a right or wrong because regardless it will become a language with time
@@hadiisaboss5307 Yes, my mate, it's not difficult to understand Scottish, I know that in depth.
Linguistic science is based on facts, not on assumptions and cultural digressions, Scottish English is the brother of English, in fact and a dialect of it like London, Scouse, Cockney etc...
We agree on that.
Linguistics is a science that does work with right and wrong, yes, that is an absolute and round mistake on your part, then you already demonstrate that you are a layman, especially because as a science, linguistics will not invade the object of study of other sciences. language, and other human and social sciences that are outside the field of language.
Learn to be empathetic and put yourself in my context and accept the more technical information that I bring to UA-cam as a whole, not just for you.
I manage this kind of science 🧪 🔭
When we talk about Scottish Doric, Shetlandic and Orkneic, they have been a linguistic family and subfamily completely separate from English for centuries.
This is the family and subfamily of Scottish languages that are completely separated from English and have no relationship with it.
Goodbye, you didn't tell me anything new that I didn't already know before you told me, don't quote me anymore, the exchange of information and courtesy was nice, but it's okay, I'm closing this topic with you, and there's no need to elaborate conversation where the flow of information where the exchange of information has already achieved its purpose. It was worth the conversation but okay, that's the end of the conversation with you, be polite and don't send me any more messages, goodbye, happy June to you and your family.
@@ReiKakariki bro yapped and yet said nothing
as I read it:
it is a continuation of a combination of both anglo saxon and middle english.
It has elements of both anglo saxon and middle english.
the ae is there (and is an anglo saxon element).
it also uses middle english verbs and verb conjugation (middle english).
I can see it as a dialect (a continuation of the combination of both anglo saxon and middle english).
"I understood all of that" Uh em?! 🤔 Hail = Whole, Furth = outside.
I doubt you understood those words
For mutual intelligibility, doesn't it depend on what the dialect of the english-speaker is as well? Like, if someone speaks Northumbrian English or other northern English dialects [or Scottish English, for that matter] they might have a better chance of understanding it than a speaker of American English, due to greater linguistic proximity. Though the closer geographically someone is to Scotland the harder that is to distinguish from actual familiarity with Scots. Of course, the introduction of this kind of thing [where you can have a spectrum of dialects/languages that are all mutually intelligible with their nearby neighbors but not with the far end of the spectrum - a sort of linguistic "ring species"] makes the whole concept complicated, and possibly the only real conclusion one can make is "languages and dialects are a fake concept"
That's exactly it. On a social level, a language is pretty much whatever you want it to be. The government of Australia could decide tomorrow that the new official language of Australia is Australian, not English. That's oversimplifying the issue, but this is the case for many languages around the word, even though dialects and languages exist on a continuum with varying levels of mutual intelligibility depending on a variety of factors. That is why it is so tricky to distinguish what is a language and what is a dialect, because in a sense, all languages are dialects, but some are chosen to be "official languages." Thanks for your thoughts and thanks for watching!
Here isn’t even better way to look at it. The Scott’s language develops in parallel with modern English.
There is a dialect continuum throughout the island of Britain as you go from one village or one city The local language use seems to change ever so slightly
The Scott was at one time dialect of old English and middle English, and in fact, there was a middle Scots that was almost mutually unintelligible to people who spoke English at the time
What is happening is the modern version of the Scott adapted to people who also had to speak Scottish English or standard English in order to communicate in a business and cultural sense with the formal government to the UK
So basically the Scott language development parallel with English and is not a dialect of English, but has morphed changed and adapted to function like a dialect of English with a high degree of mutual intelligibility, but there are significant numbers of vocabulary and usage that do not overlap with English will require an English to learn this vocabulary, and some of them are used to quite often in conversation of modern Scott
This makes it a Separate mutual intelligibility was standard English
Yes, the west Friesian language will have whole simple sentences that are one for one with modern English
This gives the illusion that it’s the closest thing to English, but of course it’s not. There’s a lot of West Friesian that would require people to learn a whole vocabulary. Fortunately, the grammar, the same or close and they have to learn new pronunciation rules, even when the words are written the same and sound almost the same.
Modern west West Friesian is not as close to modern English as modern Scots
There are dialects of modern Scots that are harder for a standard English speaker to understand and pronunciation
scots is a more conservative/archaic form of English that was spoken in the north.
Scots *is* a separate language, however plenty of dialects of Scots and Scottish English qualifies for both languages.
It's a dialect continuum.
Think of it as a line.
Official English is close to one end, Scots is close to the other, both have dialects strewn along the line, and in the middle there's dialects that could qualify for either.
And at the ends you have dialects that's *clearly* different languages.
I'm willing to grant that most Scots speakers probably speak dialects that could qualify for either language because of the heavy English influence, after all this is related languages and Scots is endangered.
But it's also a separate language, where you'd genuinely have little or no intelligibility of some dialects.
It's just that so few speakers survive of these pure forms that people think of Scots as only the intelligible parts...
"English" ? You mean that language that muslims speak in Pakistan ?
PS. Listento "Scots Language Radio on the Internet.
I think they are seperate but barely seperate
Love your videos ❤❤❤
Is english just a dialect of Saxon?
English is a Romanic Creole language, English is the result of an intense and immense global mixture and miscegenation of Anatolian, Iberian, Celtic, Germanic, Greek and Latin languages. With the Roman conquest and the French conquest, English was completely Romanized and Frenchified, becoming Creole, Romanesque and Celtic neo-Greek.
Due to these conditions, there is and would not be any way for English to be a mere Saxon dialect.
Read the book Manners of the Language by Gautier de Doux from 1339, and see with your own eyes the medieval French founding the grammar, logic and linguistics of all the English we speak, get the book and see for yourself, don't take my word as a cage and like prison, take the test and see him for what he is.
This goes from ancient times to our current age.
Hugs see you later.
Bye take care yourself.🥂🍻
Scots speakers know that it's a different language because they also speak English. English speakers who don't speak Scots assume it isn't just out of ignorance.
C''mon.....give the Scots a break. If's a form of English. No more should be said.
Scots is no more a dialect of English than Cantonese is a dialect of putonghua (aka "Mandarin"). But one does often hear them described as "dialects" notwithstanding the clear barriers to mutual intelligibility between the two related languages.
What is deemed a "language" and a "dialect" is a social construct, for sure. Thanks for watching!
Greetings from Romania!
It looks like a dialect.
From my point of view, it is similar to the difference between the Romanian language and its dialects: Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian and Istro-Romanian.
Interesting! Thanks for the input. Do those dialects have a different accent or do they have completely different words?
@@ThePolyglotFiles There are not very big differences. I'm not a linguist, but I can say that between Romanian (Daco-Romanian) and its other dialects there are, first of all, many slightly modified words, such as instead of "fată" in Romanian, in Aromanian they say "feată" and there are many such examples. There are also words such as Romanian archaisms that are rarely used now in Daco-Romanian. Regarding the accent, it is less obvious that there are differences.
There are also words that are difficult to recognize in the current Daco-Romanian, but in general at least three quarters of the lexicon is intelligible.
@@ThePolyglotFiles There are sentences in a row in which I can understand everything, but there can also be sentences whose meaning I do not understand precisely.
You cannot judge from this very superficial video whether It is a dialect or not.
Scots has been studied academically and linguistically for over 100 years now and it has five main dialects of its own.
If Scottish already has 5 dialects and its own language, distinct from English.
World like or not it's already a true emancipated idiom now.🥂🥂🥂🥂👍👍👍🤝
First comment!
Welcome back, and thanks for watching!
You said it at the beginning of your exploration of the topic: Scots and English are sister dialects of Middle "English" (There needs to be a more neutral term that allows Scots to stand on a more equal footing. It is NOT a dialect of English English). Scots must have dialects of its own, but English has many more - and, in fact, is famous for having so many for the area it covers in the UK. English swamps Scots in both number and geologic locations. Though not related to the Celtic languages, it is in the same metaphoric boat as them. English dominates and invades
I'm interested in Gaylic not to be confused with Gaelic. What is with the dialect of the homosexual male and why does it cross borders?
No, it's not. Even proposing it is ignoring the history of their development.