Fixing the Table Saw Flip Stop
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
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I noticed this issue a while ago and it had bothered me since. Finally decided to fix it, properly.
Templates for download: 1drv.ms/u/s!Av...
You can find end mills like the one I used in this video here: www.hoffmann-g...
Enjoy the video!
Hi Marius, thank you for your constructive suggestion, we value very highly such feedback because we are always looking to help our customers by making steps forward.
We would very much like you to visit us at our Hall in Tirol factory so we can get to know you and your ideas. Kind regards from Tyrol.
That sounds good to me. Please contact me through e-mail for further details. You can find my E-Mail address in my channel description. I'm looking forward to hear from you.
Wow! Must be great to see that they listened, ask them about a job there!
Thats awesome: not only did they watch his video(s) they also replied to his plea to improve their product and they responded in english for the majority to understand their reply. Now i just wonder if they are actually sincere and go through with the invite and suggestions marius has to offer.
Wow that's awesome Felder!
I ended up choosing the Hammer K3 over Jet, Holzkraft, Bernardo and other such names here in Germany mostly because of Marius' original video review of the saw.. despite Jet being my go-to brand in Canada. Finding out that Felder care enough to respond by taking this small criticism seriously is the icing on the cake.
I received my saw last week, and found everything was in order and properly tested according to the data sheets provided, though someone at the packing stage forgot to add the adjustable feet. Because I have a disgracefully uneven workshop floor, they would not have been enough anyway. Had to design and weld up a new system that would support wheels and give me a wider range of adjustment.
If anyone would like a photo or dimensions, shoot me a message.
Incidentally I can’t understand why 64 people gave this video the thumbs down - Marius has done a great service to both Felder by highlighting the need for improvements and potential new Customers like myself.
Great solution. One thing I might change would be to give the adjusting cam some sort of distinct pointer so you could track if it was moving on its own over time. That could be as simple as a scribe line on the cam's handle.
That's a good idea...and done it.
I have watched people do the five cut method many times, and never got it. You explained it for an idiot like me and I got it. Thanks young man.
To put the nylon nuts on when there is nothing to grip onto on the brass rod. you can cut a slot in the end of the brass rod to accept a flat screwdriver.
Gut gelöst - Das gleiche Problem hatten wir bei unserer Felder in der Firma, war genauso *piep* gebaut.
Wir haben damals den Exzenterdingsi durch einen Anschlagklotz mit einer Madenschraube/Kontermutter und den Klappstop durch ein Stück Vierkantstahl ersetzt.
Klarer Verbesserungsvorschlag, der durch den Hersteller schnellstmöglich honoriert werden sollte!
Wiedermal tolles kurzweiliges Video! Danke hierfür.
Great Job! I had the Hammer Sliding table saw and then stepped up to the larger K500P Felder and I just sold it at a massive loss.
Felder is a good company, but there are so many little things which stop their products in my mind from being totally GREAT products.
The Hammer line is hobby line and as you mentioned they need to shave cost everywhere.
Keep your great posts coming, I am woodworker for 45 years and like seeing a young person taking time to work with extreme detail.
Looks like a last minute throw in solution from the manufacturer, I'm fixing those all the time as I buy low end tools, but at this price range it deserves quite a few harsh words.
You have inspired me to fix mine “not the same brand but the same problem” so taking all the raised issues I made one like the upgrade from Felder, not as good looking or refined but all from 12mm aluminium and a/s retainers. Cheers
For cutting Aluminium I only use camping alcohol. It costs about 3€ per litre. It evaporates completely and cools very well. I put it into a spray bottle.
I'm sure you have solved a problem for a lot of people and educated others of us that think Felder's engineering is faultless. I don't own a saw like this but would love to have one. No matter the quality of the saw, it can be improved. This video has inspired me to take another look at my current saw's settings to make sure they are still square.
Marius Hornberger I know what felder will have to say. They'll call you and say they want you to work for them! Great work. Love your ingenuity. I honestly feel like I improve my engineering thought process just watching your videos.
Thanks for the video Marius! I have the same saw, and since day one have had the same problem... My work around has been to do the 5-cut test every time I need to make a crosscut, and while I've gotten pretty efficient at it, it's no way as quick as how the manufacturer planned for this feature to work. It's such a pain that I've gone so far as to shop around for a new table saw, but seeing your video gives me renewed hope! ... You should consider making and selling them to the Hammer community! I know I'd buy one!
Lovely fix. Btw. you could have just slotted the end of the brass rod to hold it with a flathead screwdriver while securing it with the locknut :)
I have a suggestion for you, since I own a Felder BF7-41(Yea, I am old school!). Since you have a steel small extension table, you could drill it out and add a 90 degree fixed fence on top of it, if you really want repeatable accuracy versus a removable cross cut fence. Yea, you loose the measurement fence, but I am sure you could come up with a replacement fence as well with your CNC. I would say most of the time I keep my fence at 90 degrees, and for angles, I am more than likely using 45 or 30/60, all of which can be accomodated by making a wood triangle that sits in front of the home made cross cut fence. Simple and effective as well. Also, remember that when using hardwoods and not plywood, you are going to get wood movement, so you need to accomodate that in your designs also, so metalworking accuracy isn't always necessary.
Hi Marius
I have a C3 -31 Perform here in the UK. I to have had the same issue with this flip stop . I have challenged Felder about this and they replaced the whole unit about 12 months ago.
Sadly the same fault has now developed again.
I have even sourced replacement spring washers from the USA to try to fix the problem but it is only a short term fix.
Like you I find this extremely frustrating. I find that Felders attitude is that the machine comes with an outrigger table which is the more accurate and better method of guaranteeing an exact 90 degree cut.
If you decide to make a batch of these improved flip stop please put my name on the top of the list as I would be anxious to buy one
keep up the great work
Nice work, Marius. I tweak my tools pretty regularly, but I buy the cheap version and assume that I'll save money by tuning them myself. Given the cost of that saw, I can totally understand your frustration.
And Felder have replied and come to the party it seems....See their post below.
I'd be keen on them paying for the new part, the extension slide with stops AND the room extension to fit the table saw extension in!!!!
3500€ and the have a piece of junk that sets the cut square? Cheeky buggers!!
And it only took a brilliantly talented German teenager with 10's of 1000s of UA-cam followers to sort out one of the best brands in the world! You're a star, Marius! Keep up the great work...but please, we need those outtakes!
Thanks! (I hope "teenager" was part of your exaggeration for making you point ;) )
Absolutely....with your skill set and capacities i think you should be in the centurion category! No age-ism implied or intended to you....maybe to Felder but not you, good sir!!
The manufacturer's of your beautiful table saw were waiting for someone like you to come up with the right solution. If I were you, I'd send them an email and claim your prize.
You're good and thorough! :) Your videos are always fun to watch...
- Thank you for taking the time to make them...
Great video, they get better every time - lighting, the logical and clear way you explain everything, methods you use etc. Over the last year you have basically convinced me to get an x-carve as well. :)
I don't use coolant for aluminium either. That just creates a nasty clog of coolant and chips that fills my cut. Best way I found is dry cut with a nice quality upcut- bit that is especially made for aluminium. It clears the chips on it's own, but a little air stream is helpful as well.
Excellent video with a perfect solution.
if a company values its brand they can not afford to make these kind of crap designs.
Good job fixing it
Excellent work on this. I have the C3 31 comfort machine and if mine had that problem there would be hell to pay. Such a basic need for a table saw, you'd expect them to get it right. Well done for thinking up a fix, just hope felder are kind enough to acknowledge it.
greeting,
as usual a very informative vid, from a materials point of view, brass together with aluminium is a definitely a no no, in previous vids you talked about a lot of moisture in your basement workshop, these two materials with moisture you will get an galvanic cell setup and the brass will become cathodic (protected) and the aluminium will be anodic (corroded), the result WILL BE corrosion pitting on your new device and most definitely corrode the side of your sliding table. I recommend that you replace the brass with stainless steel asap.
mick
Good point. I take more care about the moisture now (always about 50-60%). The sliding table is anodized, will that still corrode? I don't know for sure.
most likely, keep an eye out for a black substance (product) appearing in and around the brass and aluminium, if you see it, pitting has commenced, best to replace the brass, really recommend this
mick
Galvanic corrosion occurs at the millivolt level and therefore requires very close proximity or direct contact to do it's dirty work. In your case the two metals most likely to interact, given enough impure moisture, are the brass and aluminium which are already in direct contact. The current has no reason to travel through the table as it is not in the direct path and, being anodised, is a very poor conductor.
michael wakley picked up a piece of stainless steel 6mm round and stainless steel washers to replace the brass. I really should have thought about that. Thanks again for reminding me!
glad to assist, keep up your great vids
mick
I have wanted a Felder combination machine for a long time. I wonder if they share the same mechanism. Good thing I now have a great solution to the issue if I ever get one and they are the same. Way to go Marius! Glad to hear that this is the only thing you do not like about the saw. Usually when I see videos like this there is a short list of at least 3 or 4 things. Great to hear that felder is making such a quality product in their hammer line that there is only 1 complaint.
Well lets say that this was the only complaint that really matters. There are more.
Still if there's only one thing worthy of mentioning that's really good. But you do now have me curious about those other things.
I used to have a Hammer B3 winner table saw but switched over to a Felder CF 531 combination machine. I share mr. Hornberger his thoughts. On the new Felder this is a different system, definitely extreme robust, very happy with it. I've been told that the founder of Felder was active in metalworking, this explains why Felder machines are over dimensioned and extremely stable. The X-roll is also noticeably more stable, less vibrations.
I have a sawstop table saw and the sawstop slider attachment. Based on your original review video of your Hammer, I made a similar adjustment system for my slider fence, except I used a shouldered bolt. For some reason I just assumed Felder would have used a shouldered bolt as well. I don't have access to a cnc so I just made everything by hand, might not be as precise as yours but it's getting the job done for now. And if I had a cnc I would start over and make these pieces more precise.
great work Marius, I like your attention to detail. things like this would annoy me too, although i dont know if i would have the patience to fix it!
Your solution is great, although i would certainly think about making it from 316ss later once you notice any play or wear in your new aluminium parts.
Also, one of the suggestion would be, now you have the fence set up square and your cam adjustment is set, i would now make a permanent mark on it, using a scribe or notch, so you know in future how much adjustment you are making and how much wear is being caused in the parts.
Just a simple scribed line on where the cam meets the flip up adjuster where they make contact... if that makes sense!?
keep up the good work. videos are fantastic.
I've already bought stainless parts to replace the brass and the scribe is already done.
Marius Hornberger that wasn't a criticism by the way, just trying to be helpful. great minds think alike clearly
Sure, but that was something to criticize about. And it was helpful from you to remind me.
Clever solution, and great video! You might have just found a good niche to make some money--you could start producing more of those flip-down stops and sell them to other saw owners who are having the same problem
ChicoMillion I thought the same, but then, he would probably get sued the way companies are now days! I think sharing your template and information is a good idea.
Great follow up to your earlier review. And yes for a high end saw at that price the least it should be is accurate. It's hard to believe that, that poorly designed adjustable stop got past their quality control dept. The first time you tune it in you couldn't help but notice that it was a problem. Nice fix and glad to see you changed out the brass for SS. Looking forward to hearing if the manufacture responds to your heads up on the stop problem.
Marius:
Nice fix! So you know, you can grab a smooth brass rod like that with a locking plier (Vise-Grip or similar) but pad the jaws with a few layers of paper towel. I've been able to really lock down on soft parts like aluminum, copper and brass with that method and left no mark whatsoever.
Great fix and I agree that part should be standard equipment.
Great Fix! Great video! Great "UA-cam" presentation! I like it!
I sincerely hope that Felder paid all your expenses to travel to and from Tirol in Austria. I doubt they did. But what a story that would be if they did.
Sadly, this is not the only thing bugging the K3 sliding saw:
1. Cheap hand wheels. Notice most less expensive saws like Powermatic and SawStop, etc, and see their awesome hand wheels. And WHY in the pluperfect hallelujah would one ever have to use one wheel for two different functions (height and tilt); having to remove it and install it on the "other" shaft and vice-versa.
2. Flimsy extension tables made out of sheet metal. On a saw as expensive as this one? Give me a break!
3. Worse: Their fences, NO matter how tightly the anchoring; does have play the further from the fixing point. NO part of any fence should flex once the knob is tightened! Period!
4. The rear part of their blade "guard" is dangerous. But I must say that overall, it is the best blade guard on the market. For it takes up minimal space overall and especially concerning its width. Plus, it is a gem to get on and off the riving knife. I bought one to use on my Powermatic table saw; so I could throw away their stupid, useless guard; as most all American made blade guards are. I do love Felder blade guards a lot.
5. Their miter base is just sheet metal. No way could a thinking person justify this on a saw being as expensive as Hammer products are.
6. A right tilting blade is always VERY dangerous when tilting towards the fence; while cutting thin pieces. Lowering the height of the fence, does NOT solve this safety problem. It scares the hell out of me.
I do love the K3 in many other ways though. Plus, I do give them a" tip-of-the-hat" for their using a 5" dust port. A 4" is NOT good enough on a table saw. UNLESS you split a 5" into* a 4" AND a 3" (2.5 will work, albeit a little loss in vacuum); while using the 4" on the bottom of the blade and the 3" (2.5") on top of the blade. I applaud them for that.
The ability to add a scoring blade and outrigger/fence ass'y is a real plus.
* Note: When dealing with air flow, use the "Pythagorean" rule. IE:
5" squared equals 4" squared plus 3" squared. Actually one should use the exponential formula; if trying to determine the exact mass of air flow. As an example: 5pr2 = 4pr2 + 3pr2; and then take the square-root for the size left; AFTER taking off a given sized "branch" pipe from the main duct pipe.
But using the first method, is still directly proportional; and much easier to figure. Do this when planning all dust collection systems; when figuring what size the remaining pipe size must be; when taking off branch feeds; to get maximum dust collection efficiency.
For whatever it's worth.
I have the same saw for 4 years now, and I have to disagree.
your design is indeed much better than the original one, and I hope Felder will adopt this method (and maybe even reward you in some way for that), but from my experience, if you invest about 20 minutes in aligning, you will get fine results and i never worried about that for 3 years already. the key is to keep it tight enough while making fine adjustments, and if it's too tight to do the final adjustment - start all over again.
BTW, since felder tend to rip off in accessories prices, i made myself a 2mm thick stainless steel blade splitter (laser cut), to suit thin kerf blades. i have the file for it, if anyone is interested.
Hi mate. I think you're right, in that an adjustment that you can trust should be included in the package of the saw it should only cost them a few cents more. However, I think, it was Tom Lipton of the Oxtool channel that said, TRUST BUT VERIFY. It's, I think, one of the best expressions that I have come across.
Klarer Konstruktionsfehler Marius. Im übrigen bin ich sehr neidisch auf dein gutes Englisch. Habe versucht, meinen Kanal auch auf englisch zu machen....und bin gescheitert. Dann bleibt mein Kanal halt Deutsch :-)
Tolles Video (wie immer). Freue mich auf neue. Grüße von Let´s Bastel Kanal!
Marius, you have inspired me on how to upgrade my table saw sled fence regulation system. The cam will help me to do that. 👍
Wow. I hope you got some compensation from Hammer for fixing that issue. I mean, at this price point, it's absolutely unacceptable. Nice Work btw. !
Great solution, Marius, your attention to detail and execution is inspiring! If I was Felder, I would be pretty embarrassed. I always find a mention of their name in a public tweet get's a companies attention :-)
FELDER-GROUP TV has already replied to this video.
Com ferramentas boas da gosto de trabalhar, aqui no Brasil teria que vender a alma pra conseguir umas máquinas boas.
Parabéns pelo vídeo, seus trabalhos ficam perfeitos!
I think tomorow morning there will be a urgent meeting at the Felder team in Tyrol :D
Great job !
Great work! What alloy is it that doesn't smear and stick to itself? I've got a project I need to cut in aluminum soon and I'll take all the advice I can get.
ja, einmal mehr muss ich den Schreibern unten Recht geben: Du solltest asl Qualitäts-Manager / Konstrukteur wo auch immer anheuern - DEINE Vorschläge sind echt sensationell! Perfekt! HÄTTE ich eine derartige Säge, hättest du einen Auftrag! ;-)
Great video Marius and also a great solution. I agree that an expensive saw should have had a better fitting! Your English has greatly improved also. I look forward to your videos.
regards
Mike B
I agree with you. the little thing's is where the problem is. we brought a die cutter cost over a million dollars and they had to replace the computers for the motors. the unit was 3 months old. we paid in cash took them two months to come fix it. the one from Switzerland is 40 years old and runs fine.
Some advice with milling aluminium, while it's true that you're often okay cutting dry, the cutter will still last longer. Aluminium also likes to gall to the tool, which can ruin your cut
They should hire you as a consultant.
nice fix, love the no outtakes, you must be getting better lol
Great video...as always. Though I do not have that tablesaw, I think it's pretty classy that you posted the template and CNC files to correct it.
I also hope Felder sees this. That is a cheap solution on Felders part. I wouldn't call yours overdone at all. Ball bearings would be overkill.
Very nice video Marius! For the lock nuts to stay in place over time, please make sure that at least one full screw thread sticks out. (In aviation, where i got this knowledge from, it has to be two full threads). In your video it looks like you cut of the brass short/on top of the lock nut.
kleiner tipp vom metaller : wenn du bohrungen reibst, benutze ein wenig schneidöl dabei. das sorgt für weniger reibung bei der zerspanung, was für eine bessere oberfläche ,und demnach einer kleinere rautiefe sorgt. bedeutet,dass du maßtolleranzen genauer einhalten kannst.
Custom design will always out perform / beat mass production...! good job
I must say, not bad for a woodworker!
Just a suggestion. you can drill a small cross hole in the shaft to insert an Allan wrench or dowel pin in order to tighten the lock nut.
Marius, I have a Hammer saw with the sketchy flip stop. However, I don't have CNC capability or your metal working skills. Has Felder adopted your upgrade and, if so, is there a retrofit kit available? Thanks for the skillful work and good video. I look forward to my subscription.
I've posted an update video on that topic. There's now a new flip stop available for sale. It's linked there.
Great. Thanks. I'm also looking forward to your ZCI video as I wrecked mine.
I have to agree, much improved execution of the design. I'm always afraid of building something to weak, so I would be worried about the materials you choose, but I guess time will tell if they hold up. The place I would be worried most about is the brass shaft of the flipper as it might wear out over time, but then again there really is no load involved while flipping the flipper, so I guess it will take a loooong time. The other place is the part of the flipper that goes against the fence, it might mushroom over time.
also once you had the second thread on the front brass rod, you could have used a locknut...
But I think, Hammer should address that issue, even if it makes the saw a bit more expensive I think you could use mostly standardized parts (as drill bushs) and a bit of milling to improve the mechanism substantially.
and I think measuring wood with a (cheap, even the expensive ones don't have an accuracy to 0.01mm (even though in my experience with metal they are spot on most of the time when compared to a outside micrometer) digital caliper to the 100th of a mm is always luck... (I bet you can compress the wood while measuring quite a bit)
I already replaced the brass parts with stainless steel, better choice. Yes, the caliper thing was luck. After another test I got 0,1mm off over 1,2m (I mentioned that in the video as well)
They should have used a shoulder bolt!! Nice video, please keep them coming!
great job! very clever fix.
Great solution! One question aside of this topic: You used a router/mill to mill aluminum, but you mentioned it should be also able to mill steel. What brand and type did you use?
The most I found were either not able to mill steel or had other prices, beginning with 7000 Euro...
Currently "Suhner" would be my best choice. Is "Kress" really able to do this job? (maybe with a lower milling depth per round)
thanks!
check the video description
Great video of a brilliant solution that's infinitely superior in every way to the original part.
Well done! I am not sure about the brass, but the design and execution are otherwise very good. You are right. An expensive saw should not have poor guides or adjustments.
Brass will be replaced with stainless steel
NICE,
I have the combi C3-31 machine and have the same issue with the stop
Another issue with the combi machine is the fence on the other side is too soft and bend away..:
Wish I had access to a CNC so I could make this replacement!
I would happily pay a 100 euros for it
Dennis
The truly beautiful thing about this solution is that you can use the original pieces as a template and with some simple hand tools such as a hacksaw, a set of jewelers files as well as a drill press a decent drill bit, and a reamer these results can be attained. True the cnc makes it less labor intensive but the lack of a cnc does not make it impossible. No true need for a metal lathe either the drill press and files can achieve the same results for the studs he made.
Der 5-Seiten-Schnitt-Test ist ja genial 👍🏻
Your vids are very pleasant to watch, thank you very much for all the work you put into them.
That's a fine looking bandsaw in the background. It looks a lot like mine :-D
Great job! hopefully the company will look at your solution and try to improve their factory product.
Great solution Marius! You are very cleaver and resource. Always enjoy your videos
well said Mauris and well done , I have the same hammer saw and i know the fustration
I think Felder should step up and take your advice
Love your videos. Think you could build wooden recliner chair mechanism or a zero g chair?
Great video, what a pleasure to see attention to detail since I'm in a place where good enough is the norm.
Hallo Marius, das mit dem Rechten Winkel geht auch mit 2 Schnitten. Felder stellt so seine Maschinen ein. Eine größere Platte am Anschlag anlegen und einen Schnitt machen. Dann die Platte umdrehen, so dass der letzte Schnitt gegenüber zum Sägeblatt liegt und nochmals Sägen. Dann die Platte hinten und vorne messen. Der Winkelfehler verdoppelt sich und Du kannst Messen in welche Richtung Du korrigieren musst.
I recently discovered your channel, and so far I like your stuff! Thanks for making videos!
great video, could you make a video about your router table someday?
It seems very compact and well built.
keep up the good work!
Markus, I am very impressed with your skills. Great videos, great thinking.
The same problem has the evolution saw I got and its nearly impossible to get 90 with it...so poorly designed. I hope felder sends you a professional series of their saw for a replacement ;)
Just sad that a company does this but I guess that's engineers for ya and business economics too Great work buddy
Excellent reengineering and results!
Excellent analysis and repair.
Wow the original design was really awful. Very nice fix !
Nice fix to an unnecessary problem created by the manufacturer.! Unfortunately this happens all too often. I would like to know why the dislikes though. What is to dislike??
I have haters.
TBH, I'd say that part could probably be mass produced for only 10€ more than the original... Reaming is expensive for one part, but not really for 10 thousand parts. The shafts could be probably be replaced with screws with precision unthreaded parts (which are quite standard). Good fix!
Servus Marius, Daumen hoch für all deine Arbeiten und Video! Was mich allerdings sehr interessieren würde wären deine selbstgebaute Zinkenlehre für die Kreissäge sowie deine Höhenverstellung für die "Tischoberfräse". Vielleicht könntest du über die Kontruktion mal ein eigenes Video machen. Würde mich sehr freuen! Danke und weiter so!
I have used the 4 jaw chuck from the lathe to hold smooth rod to thread or install nuts and the like.
I an considering this saw... Was there anything else you find "not so good"?
I have that exact table saw and that problem happens to me, thank you so much for the solution
You're welcome
Sehr gut Arbeit! Wenn das bei der Säge so Original mit dabei wäre, würde sie wohl nochmal €50,- extra kosten.
An der Klemmung mit der Messingscheibe, könntest du eine Federscheibe (DIN137 Form A) verwenden. Die hilft beim einstellen der Schwenkkraft der Anschläge.
Und jeder Käufer würde die 50€ gerne bezahlen, wenn's dann funktioniert.
Man I love your videos and ingenuity!
Hi i know its along time since you promote this problem do you have an idea whare can i can buy the upgraded version of the flip stop
Hey Mario Hornburger! Love your vids. Keep up the good work man!
Well done! A brilliant solution. I can only imagine your frustration when you discovered the design "gremlin." Did the company ever acknowledge their flaw?
Yes, they commented on this video.
Which cutters do you use on your cnc to mill aluminium? I have a stepcraft 600 with a Kress spindle and the ones i use right now work great, but cost like 60€ a piece..
check the link in the description
The link doesn't work correctly for me...
Wow, your videos are wonderful, informative and without the horrible electronic music beating away in the background...Felder would be smart to have you evaluate their gear ! James
Well done. Notice a problem, fix it however you can.
I love to see how you well use the CNC, !
Great Fix.
that was an actual entertaining video!
gotta love the German humour, which I thought they didn't have. lol.
keep these videos coming
I agree! There's no real excuse for that kind of poor design. They make a lot of money on those saws and like you said, almost everyone who will pay that amount for a saw isn't going to be overly bothered, if at all, for a few more bucks to make it better and I'm sure that extra cost would be much less than your suggestion. I could tell for sure from the video, but is the miter gauge graduated? I didn't see any marks or numbers so if I'm correct, how do you set your angles?
it keeps you busy...you fixed it...nice video ....