It is amazing that after so much evidence people argue in the comments section. "The spirit of God is in my nostrils" Job 27:3. Body + breath of life from God = Soul. Is this math that hard? The argument that poetic books can't be used for doctrine fails as authors of the new testament and Jesus use scripture poetry for doctrine. Amazing stubbornness, pagan beliefs, and greek philosophies have made this argument possible. I am glad people have opinions and you have the freedom in the USA to believe differently. God bless you in your search for the truth.
At this point in time, people come here with an already closed mind. It really doesn't matter what they here from the Bible. They are so infused with error that nothing you or this message can say will change their mind. Just let it go. They'll make be easy prey for the last day deception.
thank you doug my friend s wife died and he wants to know where she is some one told her she is suffering now by scripture i can tell him the truth and make him and his kids feel better
If you sleep between death and resurrections, then Heaven will pretty much feel immediately after death anyway, just like Fry on Futurama awakening in the year 3000. I don't know what the second death is 'like' sleep forever after being consumed by fire. That's where all the 'blackest of darkness' lines come in to denote permanent unconsciousness, and not black sooty hellfire as I saw on some silly site!
Paul made it clear so quit quoting the Old Testament and taking the Bible completely out of it's context Luke 16, Jesus mentions 3 names, and quotes Abraham! It was a place of comfort and since Doug thinks he knows more than Jesus on this issue. Jesus said Lazarus was comforted and the rich man was in torments! Jesus never used names in parables. Paul said he was in a straight betwixt two. To depart would be far greater. Paul was taken into the 3rd Heaven. Paul said to be absent from the body....the body.. the body.. aka, house, vessel, tent for our spirit & soul, is to be present with the Lord....how much clearer should it be? What about the martyrs in Heaven millions if not billions mentioned in Revelation?
Heaven & hell are not the Judgments nor rewards.....Doug, Doug, Doug... when Jesus returns and we are resurrected and He completes the first resurrection, then we shall stand before His Bema seat and receive our eternal rewards! Here on Earth not in Heaven! Jesus throne is in Jerusalem. After His Millenial reign, all those in hell will be resurrected unto eternal damnation called the Lake of Fire, where Satan and all his angels will spend eternity
Revelation 5, John sees the souls of the martyrs crying and asking God how long? When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under (R)the altar (S)the souls of those who had been slain (T)for the word of God and for (U)the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, (V)“How long, O Lord, (W)holy and true, (X)until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a (Y)white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them (Z)that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
The Bible itself, shows that souls are mortal by nature (Job 33:22; Ezekiel 13:19; 18:4, 20) and that this entire description is symbolic, not literal. The "souls" - the dead saints - crying "avenge our blood" (Revelation 6:10) is similar to Abel's blood (his life, see Leviticus 17:14) crying to God from the ground (Genesis 4:10; Hebrews 11:4). Since neither blood nor the dead talk (Psalm 115:17; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10), we know that the meaning is not literal. The "souls under the altar," then, is a symbolic picture of the martyrdom of saints.
Hear answers from our Redeemer Himself whom you call Jesus, at the bottom of this comment is more of the Word of the Lord spoken to this generation; "11/15/04 From The Lord, Our God and Savior The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear (Regarding the state of the dead[1]) Thus says The Lord: All people sleep in death, both those who have done good and those who have done evil. In no way are they among the living, nor are they aware. They know nothing at all, for all their thoughts have perished with them. All remain at rest, until the day I call them to awake; some to the first, the resurrection of life, and many more to the second, the resurrection of judgment. Blessed and holy are those who take part in the first resurrection. For over them the second death[2] has no power, as it is written.[3] You have heard it said: To be absent from the body Is to be present with The Lord[4]... This saying is true... For all those who die in Messiah will Indeed look upon Him at the Last Day,[5] Yet it will be to them as the blink of an eye... For the dead know not the passage of time, Nor do they know they have fallen asleep... Thus there is indeed life after death, Yet during death there is most certainly not. For I tell you the truth, if there is life during death, as it is commonly taught amongst the people, then none truly die. And if all have the victory over death, then all are like The Messiah; thereby making The New Covenant useless and the resurrection of no effect. This teaching is false, denying both the sacrifice of The Messiah and the Word of God. For if none truly die, then The Messiah is no longer the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. And if He is not the first to be freed from death and the grave, then The Messiah did not die. And if The Messiah did not die, then the power of sin has the victory and the grave has become your final resting place, leaving you with no hope of salvation. Yet the Scriptures do not lie. The wages of sin is death;[6] from the beginning, I declared it! And yet the churches continue to stand divided against themselves, corrupting My Word as they fall in line with satan, deceiving and being deceived, preaching, “You will not surely die,”[7] teaching that which runs contrary to the Scriptures. Therefore, hear the Word of The Lord, O foolish and deceived generation: If as you say, there is no death and all continue on as living spirits, whether it be in Heaven or in hell or in some other place, then you also say there is no God and no Savior who was sent to save you from the penalty of sin, which is death. Where then does that leave you? You are lost, a people without hope, multitudes of deceived people waiting for their own inevitable destruction, a creation wrought in vain! Yet The Messiah did indeed pay the penalty for your sins, even unto death... He is risen, The Firstborn from the dead; by which you are also delivered from death, if you so choose to receive of His life, if you so choose to embrace Him as He truly is! For He alone will stretch out His hand in that day And lift His beloved from the grave, in which all must sleep, Save those who remain awake at His coming, as it is written[8]... And behold, the time is indeed coming, when all Who are in the grave will hear His voice and come out... Those who have done good, to the resurrection of life... And those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment... I AM THE LORD." www.thevolumesoftruth.com/Death_and_Awakening
Simon Brown-- I would encourage you to do a word study on the word "hell" and look at the root translations from every single instance where this word (the word sheol also) is used. It is very interesting! You could look at the series "Thunder in the Holy Land" too they have en episode dedicated to looking at those Greek and Hebrew roots, their contexts, and their translations in KJV.
Hear answers from our Redeemer Himself whom you call Jesus, at the bottom of this comment is more of the Word of the Lord spoken to this generation; "11/15/04 From The Lord, Our God and Savior The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear (Regarding the state of the dead[1]) Thus says The Lord: All people sleep in death, both those who have done good and those who have done evil. In no way are they among the living, nor are they aware. They know nothing at all, for all their thoughts have perished with them. All remain at rest, until the day I call them to awake; some to the first, the resurrection of life, and many more to the second, the resurrection of judgment. Blessed and holy are those who take part in the first resurrection. For over them the second death[2] has no power, as it is written.[3] You have heard it said: To be absent from the body Is to be present with The Lord[4]... This saying is true... For all those who die in Messiah will Indeed look upon Him at the Last Day,[5] Yet it will be to them as the blink of an eye... For the dead know not the passage of time, Nor do they know they have fallen asleep... Thus there is indeed life after death, Yet during death there is most certainly not. For I tell you the truth, if there is life during death, as it is commonly taught amongst the people, then none truly die. And if all have the victory over death, then all are like The Messiah; thereby making The New Covenant useless and the resurrection of no effect. This teaching is false, denying both the sacrifice of The Messiah and the Word of God. For if none truly die, then The Messiah is no longer the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. And if He is not the first to be freed from death and the grave, then The Messiah did not die. And if The Messiah did not die, then the power of sin has the victory and the grave has become your final resting place, leaving you with no hope of salvation. Yet the Scriptures do not lie. The wages of sin is death;[6] from the beginning, I declared it! And yet the churches continue to stand divided against themselves, corrupting My Word as they fall in line with satan, deceiving and being deceived, preaching, “You will not surely die,”[7] teaching that which runs contrary to the Scriptures. Therefore, hear the Word of The Lord, O foolish and deceived generation: If as you say, there is no death and all continue on as living spirits, whether it be in Heaven or in hell or in some other place, then you also say there is no God and no Savior who was sent to save you from the penalty of sin, which is death. Where then does that leave you? You are lost, a people without hope, multitudes of deceived people waiting for their own inevitable destruction, a creation wrought in vain! Yet The Messiah did indeed pay the penalty for your sins, even unto death... He is risen, The Firstborn from the dead; by which you are also delivered from death, if you so choose to receive of His life, if you so choose to embrace Him as He truly is! For He alone will stretch out His hand in that day And lift His beloved from the grave, in which all must sleep, Save those who remain awake at His coming, as it is written[8]... And behold, the time is indeed coming, when all Who are in the grave will hear His voice and come out... Those who have done good, to the resurrection of life... And those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment... I AM THE LORD." www.thevolumesoftruth.com/Death_and_Awakening
Luke 24:36, KJV And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Ghost is Jesus human spirit.....once our body dies, as born-again believers, followers of Jesus, our spirit, aka ghost, is committed into the Father's hands in heaven....Jesus was in God's care when He descended into hell....how could Jesus descend into hell if His soul was asleep? How could the gospel be preached to those who are dead, if their souls were sleeping? 1 Peter 4:6 KJV For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
How could Jesus have descended if His soul were asleep? Ephesians 4 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
I actually like Pastor Doug and Seventh Day Adventists. I was raised an Adventist....I'm against all false doctrines and cults....everything the Adventist church teaches is based in spiritual death....it's a cursed, hypnotized, brainwashed, spiritually dead cult. The law of God is given to us, it's not something we "keep" through our flesh. The Sabbath is not a law, nor a Commandment, but a truth spiritually in Christ it is realized....we find our 7th day reality which is the only day that had no Evening or morning which meant it had no end nor was it based in the flesh at all. The 10 Commandments were only given through our flesh. Christ fulfilled the law meaning Justice and the righteous requirements of the law were totally completed at Calvary....it is finished. Sin is sin. I'm not endorsing sin. Sin is a transgression of God's law. But we are redeemed from God's law so even when we sin, because we are not fully redeemed yet, God no longer imputes it as sin under the law. So we are not punished by the law! That's why Christians can sin and not be put to death per the law! I'm honestly trying to help you guys. Believe it or not, every Christian sins everyday, and if we were still under the law, that sin would be imputed unto us. So God ended that at the cross. Im not endorsing sin, and trying to keep the 10 Commandments doesn't keep people from sinning! It's through being sanctified by the Holy Spirit working inside our spirit man, the inner man, that we are daily being purged by His work, not ours, so our nature becomes like Jesus....not by the letter that kills, but through the spirit, that gives us life God bless... trying to help you guys honestly get free from Adventism
I understand what you're saying, but that is not what u read. Jesus said I have not come to do away with the law, only to fulfil it. God says that he writes the law in our hearts. Where have you read that the 7th day had no beginning or end, in the context which we read the bible it's pretty clear in order that something was called a 'day' it required evening and morning. Therefore the interpretation that this day was eternal and spiritual has no evidence base. Particularly as all around the world a 7 day week is acknowledged, long before Christianity was taken to the world, and our bodies are in sync with 7 day cycles as evidenced by the French Revolution when they tried to change this. Jesus was the lamb that was slain, all of the sacrifices that had taken place before were pointing to Jesus. Jesus says the scriptures testify of me, and when he lay down his life, that was the end of the sacrificial system. Nevertheless, the keeping of the law, ceremonies and sacrificial system prior to Christ were not to signify that these who practiced it do not sin, it was because they sin. No-one proposes that now, keeping the ten commandments as a Christian is to earn sinlessness, the ten commandments are there Because we sin, not that it makes us not sin. In the same way a traffic light doesnt prevent people from speeding through a red light. Should all traffic lights be removed spiritually because someone did it already and now we don't have to follow it because it doesn't make us drive any better?
An interesting analysis of an important issue, and warning against spiritism. But how do you reconcile these teachings on death with the account of the transfiguration of Jesus in Luke 9:29-31 which seems to indicate that Moses and Elijah - two deceased figures were actually in Jesus's presence and conversing with him, and were not merely present as symbols of the law and the prophets?. The relevant verses state ""As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem". (NIV) Furthermore, why does 1 Thess 4: 14 refer to the Second Coming as involving Jesus bringing those who have fallen asleep in him if they remained in the grave at death? The verse states, " For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him". It seems these passages were not addressed in this presentation.
There is a passage Jude 9- that there was a fight over the body of Moses + Elijah never died. 1 Thess 4:14 is referring to Jesus raising Christians from the dead-not bring back disembodied spirits from heaven as taught by Dake & repeated by Perry Stone.
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
As I understand scriptures, God gave Adam " only" the breath of life - oxygen, but he gave Jesus his " Holy" spirit in full measure. The spirit can be quantified can be fire, wind etc. It is God's operational presence and life force. King David asked God not to take His (God"s) Holy spirit from him.
There are a lot of problems with his presentation, because he reads verses that say the opposite of what he's teaching. For instance, he shows the verses that explain how the whole human is the soul, and that the soul sleeps when it dies, at least in the Old Testament before Jesus. But then he quotes the Old Testament verse that says the spirit returns to the Lord when a man dies. The spirit is different than the soul. It's a part of it--the conscious part. And yet we have verses that say we sleep at death and that Samuel was woken from his "slumber." But all of that is before Christ. He gives almost no verses that show we sleep after Christ. And Christ's own parable of Lazarus shows consciousness after death, but I'm assuming that was a metaphor about death after Jesus dies because He kept teaching about how things would be after He died. Sometimes, He spoke in the present tense and said sleep meant death, which was correct before He died, but things changed after we died. A big problem is that many rose from the dead when Jesus died. They didn't come out of their graves physically from what we can tell. It was their spirits rising, most likely. Dead people bodily coming out of the grave would've been written down my historians and would have freaked out everyone. Then Peter tells us that when Jesus died, He went to the spirits in Heaven from the time of the Flood and preached to them. If they're sleeping and no conscious, how would they hear Him preach? The simple answer is that they aren't sleeping at that point, after His death. To make it more complicated, the passage said they were kept in prison since the Flood. So it seems to be saying they're still in the same prison they were in for the last 2,000 years since the Flood. So we're they conscious or not? I'm guessing they weren't conscious before Jesus died, but Peter sure thinks they're conscious and listening to Jesus now. And that's not the most amazing thing about that verse. The amazing thing is that Jesus is preaching to people who are dead and in prison/"hell." Why preach to them if they can't be saved? Or are our translations really screwing up our understanding of Hell? Definitely the latter. In the 1800s, every single scholar who was an authority on the early Church said the early Church mostly believed that Hell was temporary and purified people to get them to Heaven. They believed all people would eventually make it to Heaven, and the demons, too. And these were native Koine Greek speakers, the language the New Testament was written in. We're they misunderstanding their own language and sayings? Of course not. 4 of the 6 schools of Christianity back then taught that everyone would eventually get back to Heaven, including those who went to Hell. The two schools that didn't teach that were even schools with buildings and materials. They were more like schools of thought in two specific regions. The Nestorians still teach Hell is temporary. They have since those times, and up until the 14th Century, they dwarfed the Catholic controlled Christian Church in size. They were massive and all over Asia. I'd say they were the true Christian Church throughout those years because Catholicism is Pagan to the core and strategically took over real Christianity then injected Paganism into it. Read Dr. Alberto Rivera on this stuff. He tells how they really formed. Anyway, the Catholics are who eventually quashed the idea of Hell being redemptive and popularized the eternal torment Hell doctrine. It was so late when I typed everything above this, I was dozing and left out some things. It's morning now so I'll finish. In the Ancient Near East, it wasn't a right or wrong, good or bad ideology. It was about chaos and order, functionality and dysfunctionality. Intention was everything. So when the Ancient Hebrews watched God's actions, they weren't thinking good or evil, they were thinking about the intention behind each action and they knew His intentions were always good. So when He uses the enemy to do what we would call evil in our Western philosophy way of seeing the world, they would look at the bigger picture and see that He was using the enemy for a broader, good purpose. For instance, when Babylon conquered Israel, you'd think that was an evil act, but God said He brought Babylon down to judge Israel, and the result was that Israel was humbled. So God used the eneny to do something seemingly bad that was actually good. But if you go bac farther in history, we see that the Israelite were used by God to judge the Canaanites who were horribly sinful. They were to drive them out of the Promised Land and they did so. The eneny is often used by God to judge His own people, and it's a good thing. When He wagers against Satan to tempt Job, God talks about how Jon is such a great servant of His. So why send Satan against him? Sounds kind of evil right? God has Satan kill off all 10 of Job's children. And no matter that God replaces all that He let Satan take from Job, you don't get over losing your kids. That's a horrific scar that's always present to some degree. Some would say that's pretty evil, but not the Hebrews. They would say God used all of that to judge Job, to prune him (judgment and punishment have the same meaning in Ancient Hebrew--to prune, basically). Those two words are both used to describe hell in the New Testament and are directly transliterated into Greek with the same meanings. In the Greek, the word punishment means correction. And we all know you can't correct something for eternity because eventually it will be fully corrected. And the word judgment means to find a problem hurting a person or society and remove it so the person or society can grow and flourish. So it's basically pruning. In the Greek, they use the same word with the same meaning to describe hell. You can't judge for eternity because it's the same thing as correction. They use a different word for vengeful punishment but that's never used to describe hell. It's only used once by Paul in the New Testament to describe what he did to the Christians when he was persecuting them. So why not use that same word for hell? Because that's not what hell is for. That's merely what Augustine and some of the Latin Church Fathers believed, and that's mainly because they were products of the Holy Roman Empire which "converted" to Christianity at the order of Emperor Constantine, sort of. Technically, he faked his conversion to Christianity in 313 AD in order to unite the empire and gain control of Christianity. History about him shows he didn't actually convert. He hated the Jews and ripped everything Jewish out of the religion and replaced it all with Pagan practices and ways and temples, etc. By 380 AD, Paganism was outlawed because most Pagans had come over to Christianity since it had become so Paganized. And by the time Augustine came on the scene the following century, the heavily Paganized and fear-induced Christians were ripe for being convinced of an eternal hell. So Augustine was exceptionally successful. And in the 6th Century, Justinian managed to get a local, not an ecumenical, council, to anathemitize Universalism. He forced it, though, and he was not seen as a legitimate ruler since he took over by military coup. So it was not widely recognized. The Catholics also anathemitized the Nestorians, who were all Universalist. So the Nestorians went throughout the East and converted far, far more than the Catholics ever dreamed of converting. In face, the Nestorians dwarfed ALL Christian denomination numbers with their numbers up to the 1300s. That's right--Universalists outnumbered the other Christians for over a thousand years and they had the more accurate doctrine of Christianity that agreed with the Bible. So the true Christians (Universalists), not the Catholics, are who actually had the numbers throughout the medieval period. The Catholics were much, much more like the Pagans. But as Nestorians declined heavily due to a Khan ascending the throne and suddenly converting form Christianity to Islam, we saw their numbers dwindle. While in the 200s and 300s, Christian numbers exploded due to persecution, we saw massive declines in Christian Nestorian numbers under the Muslim rule of the Khans. But luckily, shortly after the real Christians (the Nestorians) declined in numbers, the Protestants broke away and started purifying true Christianity again. In the 1800s, many scholars discovered that Universalism was in the Bible and the dominant belief of the Early Church. They tried to teach it to Christians, but it's very difficult to get people to change their beliefs they grew up in. So while there were several Universalist churches in the US, they declined eventually due to most Christians being taught eternal hell. Alright, I'm done with this conversation. If you study Universalism over the next 6 months or more, you're welcome to discuss it with me again if you really believe you can disprove it. But as of now, you've proved absolutely nothing and addressed none of the irrefutable points I've made. Instead, you did what all uneducated debates do when they can't disprove an argument--you attempted to redirect. Sorry, but that's a sign of a lack of education in the subject bing debated, and I won't entertain that. It's pointless. It means this is a battle of pride and you just want to win so you can feel better about yourself. I don't care to win, I care to learn or share truth. I dislike debate but enjoy friendly discussion. This isn't a friendly discussion since you keep trying to win (and keep failing). Have a good life.
Body + Spirit = Living Soul. You separate either one and you are no longer living. The Spirit returns to God yes, but that is like a hard drive with all our information stored kept until the resurrection to be glorified in a new body with our spirit to become a living soul again. Read John 3:16 carefully and you will see who gets to live eternally, yet most preachers contradicts themselves with this one simple verse. Perish means utterly destroyed, not living eternally. God bless.
@@drezilla1310 There are some issues with your comment. First, the Bible says God is spirit. Is God just a hard drive until resurrection? I know that's a bit of an extreme comparison, but my point is that just because Psalms says our spirit returns to God from where it came doesn't mean we're give enough information to know our spirit is just a hard drive. That's adding your opinion to the verse when we have no other verses saying it or justifying it. Now, I'm not saying you're wrong either. Before Christ, I believe that's somewhat true, sort of. But keep in mind, the Psalms are Hebrew poetry, and so is every prophetic book of the Bible, so there's heavy Hebrew symbolism in them (so taking them completely literal is unwise). And anytime you get into prophecy, you're getting into a hotly debated subject where a lot of people really can't prove much of their interpretation about it, especially involving death and resurrection. Just because most Christians believe in dispensationalism (future 7 yr tribulation interpretation of prophecy) doesn't mean it's accurate. The majority opinion doesn't decide whether something is true or not. In fact, I can disprove that interpretation without a doubt, 100%, and it's really cool. If you're interested, you can read SOZO online for free at EllisSkolfield.com. All of Ellis's books are free to read there and they're some of the best I've read. When it comes to soul sleep after death, here are your problems you have to contend with: 1. Matt 27:51-53 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people. Soul sleep before Jesus resurrection is fine. Soul sleep after His resurrection is a problem since these guys rose from the dead when He rose from the dead. 2. 1 Peter 3:18-20 Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit. In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison, after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water. That's a huge problem for your doctrine because if dead spirits in "prison" after Jesus' resurrection were just harddrives returned to God, then the above verses show that not only did they become conscious, they also aren't with God in Heaven but in a place that's called a prison, and Jesus is preaching to them to save them. Those guys are in the place we mistakenly call "hell," and yet Jesus is preaching the Gospel to them. Interesting, don't you think? My point is simple: a) Hebrew poetry isn't always what it seems to us Western-thinking people--The Hebrews were Eastern philosophy, not Western-philosophy, and the two have quite different perspectives. b) Death before and after Jesus changed according to the verses above, and people resurrected earlier than mainstream Christianity's interpretation of the prophecies allow for...so someone's reading the Hebrew poetry of Revelation incorrectly. It doesn't only speak of the future. It speaks of times before, during, and after John's time of writing it. That's clearly seen in certain parts of Revelation. c) If souls are rising and Jesus is preaching to people in prison ("hell"), somethings incorrect about the idea that we soul sleep all the way to the final resurrection. Look deeper into the scriptures and don't try to fit your doctrines into the Bible. Read the Bible as it is and test your doctrines against it to see if they actually work. Actively try to disprove your doctrines with it. If it disproves your doctrines, enjoy the search for the truth rather than just believing you know the truth already. It's so much more fun that way, to be in a discovering-truth mode as opposed to an I-already-know-the-truth mode. I don't know you, so maybe you already are in a genuine discovering-truth mode. If so, challenge your belief in soul sleep beyond Jesus' resurrection and see what you find. I love searching for truth in the Bible, and I've found some really cool stuff that utterly disproves certain doctrines in the mainstream holds to be true. Two of them are big doctrines. Good luck with your research. Have a great day.
No, my argument doesn't fail. There's no way every single Church Fathrr and Christian in the first 5 centuries didn't understand their native language ehen it was speaking of eternal punishment and eternal judgment. We know they didn't misunderstand it because they wrote at length to explain their beliefs about hell being temporary to purify people and get them to Heaven. The Church Fathers were very well educated and taught at the Christian schools (like universities). Your argument is just silly.
@@No_bread-and-circuses It was my mistake using the word "all." I meant that several church fathers and important figures from the first 5 centuries. Clement should not be on your list, though. He was a Universalist. In fact, Clement is the reason scholars give for Origen's Universalism. There were 6 schools of Christianity in the first few centuries AD. One believed in eternal punishment. It was the Latin school, so the ones heading it were not native Koine Greek speakers. One school taught Annihilationism. And the other 4 taught Universalism. Most people believed in Universal Restoration in the first 5 centuries because of the language used in the Gospels and Revelation, as well as traditional teachings being passed from disciple to disciple. So no, most native Koine Greek speakers were not misunderstanding the saying. This was confirmed by Augustine who wrote that most Christians believed in a redemptive Hell. Augustine is mostly responsible for spreading the eternal hell concept. And the Sophists before Christ admit that the eternal hell concept came from the Ancient Egyptian priests to control the masses. It wasn't found in Judaism until Solomon allowed false religions into Israel. But it never really became popular. We see some evidence of it in the last 2 - 3 centuries AD in the Dead Sea Scrolls, but again, it wasn't very popular. In fact, today, the Jews, generally speaking, believe that only 11 people/spirits throughout all of history will burn in hell forever and everyone else will be redeemed because God forgives, according to them and the Old Testament. Lets look at your belief and test it against scripture. 1. The Bible says that God can do all things. 2. The Bible says God does all that pleases Him in Heaven, on Earth, and below the Earth (or in the depths). 3. The Bible says it is God's will that NONE perish and ALL repent. Now, let's test those three against your belief and see if all 3 can be true. You believe God can do all things. And you believe God's will is that none perish and all repent. But you cannot believe that He does ALL that pleases Him in Heaven, on Earth, and below the Earth if you believe in eternal hell, because that would mean God is not doing His will of making sure everyone repents. Or let's say that you believe God's will is that all repent and none perish, and that God does all that pleases Him on Earth. If so, then you cannot believe that He can do all things because He cannot cause everyone to eventually choose Him and go to Heaven since some will burn forever. So He cannot do "all things" according to your beliefs. Or let's say you believe He can do all things, and He does all that pleases Him on Earth. But then that means you cannot believe that it's His will that none perish and all repent because He allows most people to burn in hell forever. No matter how you look at it, your belief makes the Bible contradict itself, needing to invalidate one or more of its verses. But a Universalist view of hell has no problem with all three verses. They all make perfect sense. There's another set of verses from Paul that are used the same way to show absolute proof that eternal hell cannot be true, but again, Universalism has no problem with the verses. Also, 1 Tim 4:10 - "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, ESPECIALLY of those who believe." So tell me, why would Paul say Jesus saves all people, ESPECIALLY those who believe? Also, some of the biggest scholars of the last 200 years have admitted that Paul's language in Romans is expressing Universalism, but those scholars still believe in eternal hell. They say Paul must have been wrong. Kinda crazy, right? They're saying the Bible has incorrect teaching in it by Paul just so they can keep their beliefs and not get ostracized by their peers. And why would God be so evil as to create mankind knowing most would burn in hell forever so that a minority could live in Heaven with Him forever? That's horrific and incredibly selfish. Yet that's what you claim God does, with your belief in an eternal hell. You claim that He's not wise enough or powerful enough or loving enough to figure out a way to get everyone to accept Him. You make the Bible contradict itself. How else would you like to screw up God's ways and the Bible's scriptures? lol
@@No_bread-and-circuses Wrong again. You really should learn Ancient Hebrew culture, word pictures, colloquialisms, and the Syriac translation of the Apostles Creed. They'd be very enlightening regarding Rev 20:10. You see, that verse is completely and utterly mistramslated. And you'd know that if you'd studied the things I just mentioned. First, fire, in the Bible, is almost exclusively divine fire when it's mentioned, and is an Ancient Hebrew symbol for purifying thing. In other words, fire is either talking about God, or the process of purification, usually. The burning bush was God, and it didn't consume the bush. The pillar of fire that lead the Israelites out out Egypt was God. God came down in a ball of fire and smoke on Mt. Sinai. In Isaiah 6:6, a Seraph took a burning ember from under the throne of God and touched it to Isaiah's lips and said now his whole body was purified (because he was afraid that seeing God would kill him). Jesus said that EVERYONE would be salted with fire. The Refiner's Fire is metaphor for both hell and God's judgment, both the judgment of His people and the judgment of those who are not His people yet. Zechariah 13:9 - And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will test them as gold is tested: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God. See the reference to refining gold and silver? The refiner's fire is specifically talking about someone who refines gold, silver, and other precious metals. Gold is a symbol of purity in the Bible, and all prophecy is written in Hebrew poetic style. When you refine gold, you heat it up with fire to melt it, then scoop off the impurities that float to the top, and when it cools, it's pure. To test its purity, you place sulpher on it, which can burn as hot as 5,000 degrees. You can test its purity by the color of the smoke that comes off of it. Solomon uses a very similar word picture in the Old Testament to the Lake of Fire. It should really be translated the Pond of Fire. Ponds are symbolic in Eastern philosophy, and the Ancient Hebrews were Eastern philosophy, which is markedly different than our Western philosophy. Ponds are a symbol of peace, tranquility, and washing away of past sins. The fire is God's love that burns away the sin. When the Lake of Fire verse talks about those in it being tormented, that's an incorrect translation. That word isn't torment, it's test. It comes from the Greek Word for torsion and is directly related to the waves twisting a boat's hull, "testing" its strength. And "forever and ever," again, is the same word as "eternal," which is the Greek word Aion. Aion means age, 99% of the time in the New Testament, but it's only translated as something other than time when it's linked to words the translators believe to be eternal...like hell. In other words, if the translator believes hell is eternal, anytime they see a verse discussing it that has the word Aion in it, they choose not to translate it as "time" or "age," but rather "eternal" or "forever." So while that word should at the very least be translated as a temporary length of time, translators screw get it wrong all the time strictly because of their beliefs. Technically, though, the word means a future time and place, or an indefinite period of time, usually with limits but sometimes not, the place of eternity itself, or the age to come. The last line of the Apsotles Creed has the term "eternal life" (aionian life) in it, but in Syriac, they didn't have a word for that concept, so they had to translate it to fit their language. So in the Apostles Creed that we found written in Syriac from the first few centuries AD, instead of "eternal life," it said, "life of the age to come," meaning the final age where everyone is in Heaven. It's talking about being in the Kingdom of God right now and experiencing peace and joy and contentment a little bit like what we'll experience in "the life of the age to come," AKA Heaven. So knowing all of that, Rev 20:10 should be translated like so: "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the pond of fire and SULFUR, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be TESTED FOR PURITY there day and night in eternity." Remember sulfur being used to test gold's purity buy the color of the smoke it let's off? Yeah...that's what's going on there. Translation is not an easy one-to-one ordeal like casa means home in Spanish. It doesn't mean home in Spanish, it has much more meaning than that to the Spanish. When translating Greek to English, there aren't always the right words in English to translate each word. Sometimes, concepts simply don't exist in one language like they do another. So it's inevitable that translators translate their own beliefs into their translation work. They can't help but do that. And that's what you're seeing with the passages about hell and the Lake of Fire. The founder of Tent maker.org did an excellent video on the Lake of Fire and other videos and write-ups on Aion and other related subjects. He shows how major Bible translators responsible for some of the most well-known Bible translations in the world have agreed with him, in writing, about the Bible teaching Universalism and the word eternal being mistranslated. So no, Rev 20:10 doesn't prove your belief, it proves mine. Good try, though. I don't bring it up initially because I don't want to explain all of the stuff I just explained. Get back to me after you've researched Universalism for at least 6 months and then we can have an educated discussion on this. Until then, this is an unfair debate since you don't really know anything about the subject matter. Have a good day.
A question posed at my church is why the 'spirit of Samuel' left a discouraging message to king Saul, instead of an encouraging one that gave Saul a false sense of security, and whether God had acted on the spirit in the same way that the guy that was told to curse Israel could only bless it!
+joestuffsda with that same logic would you dare say that eg white's visit from James who she dialogues with and adhered to his advice could have been Satan ? or her so called attending Angel could have also been the deceiver himself.... Praise Lord Jesus Christ the King of Kings !!
For a long time I have known about death and what it really is and I also know that nobody roasts in hell forever and ever. This was one of the pastors that helped me understand. But he wasn't the only one. I studied this matter extensively. I didn't study it because I wanted to know exactly what would happen, I studied it because there were too many contradictions from what I was being taught and from what I read in the Bible. What confounded me about eternal life and those who believe that we are immediately in the presence of the Lord after we die were these two scriptures:. John 3:16 and John 14:3. If the only way to eternal life is Jesus, how could those who do not accept them also have eternal life? And if we are believers, how do we immediately go in the presence of the Lord when John 14:3 makes it clear that he has to come get us at the time of the Resurrection? What purpose would the resurrection serve if we are already in heaven? And as far as the eternal torment goes, I just could not imagine a loving God torturing souls forever and ever. Revelation 20:14 then made absolutely no sense to me And that is when I realized you cannot base your understanding of a doctrine based on one scripture. You must not look at God's Word in whole, but one must also understand God's character which is described in His Word. But his character is not described in one scripture is it? No. To know his word is to know his character. I have a dear sister in Christ who believes in the eternal torture doctrine. She understands that God's children sleep until the resurrection, but she cannot wrap her mind around the fact that God would not torture people forever and ever. It is always Revelation 20:10 to which she refers, but heart interpretation is faulty I know that God does not do that. No loving God could. Justice must be served, but Justice does not mean torture. Justice means death and that is clear through many scriptures in the Bible Scripture helps us know his character. Relationship with Christ helps us know His heart. How about I know it to some degree, I pray that one day I will TRULY know His heart! 😁🙏❤️✝️
It would be weird if you could float around as some disembodied consciousness that could see and hear. It would also negate the complexity of your eyes and ears and other sensory organs. I used to believe post-Jesus Christians went to heaven while unbelievers and sinners and pre-Jesus Christians slept. I must have done the most awful skim-reading of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 when I thought that!
+Tim Lewis LOL! "Skim-reading"...I'm guilty of that too! I'm better at taking my time now, when I spend time with God in His Word. SO much more understanding than ever before, but I still feel like I have SO much more to learn...
Petina Chambers I once heard a pastor say that because his thoughts are so much higher than ours, we can never learn enough in this lifetime. There is just too much to discover
Don’t forget some people are eaten by animals digested and excreted. Some people decay beyond belief. The Bible itself says you were dust and will return to dust. Some people are torn apart. It is confusing to think how would God reassurect them. And the idea of a spirit/soul would help that. But idk tbh. But currently I lean toward death being sleep.
Revelation 7, John sees millions upon millions from every tribe in Heaven who came out of The Great Tribulation After these things I looked, and behold, (H)a great multitude which no one could number, (I)of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, (J)clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, (K)“Salvation belongs to our God (L)who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 (M)All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and (N)worshiped God, 12 (O)saying: “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in (P)white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, [b]“Sir, you know.” So he said to me, (Q)“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and (R)washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will (S)dwell among them. 16 (T)They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; (U)the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne (V)will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. (W)And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
Doug Doug Doug,ugh! All that are in their graves is referring to the physical body, not the soul! Nobody but Jesus has been resurrected yet! The first resurrection is for all the Saints who's body is sleeping or died....it's our body that's resurrected Doug, not our soul!
Who is this guy?? Teaching basic Bible truths the vast majority of Christendom couldn't get correct on their best day. What denomination does he belong to? This is what Jw's have been teaching for 2 hundred years..... and here is this guy using all thier arguments😮
@Carlos_Martins913 Appreciate it. Makes sense. For me, it's always the outliers who nail theological inconsistencies much better than anyone belonging to the mainstream. Everyone within orthodoxy have been trapped thinking along very narrow lines for far too long.
How could Jesus give up the ghost or spirit if His Spirit did not leave His body? The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Jesus Christ in us. One has to die to be a Spirit! When Jesus was walking on the water, it spooked the Apostles, and they thought it was a ghost or a spirit. Why would Jesus say, handle Me, for a spirit does not have flesh & bone as you see Me have? In other words, they were not sure if they were seeing a ghost of Jesus or Jesus in His bodily earthly form....that tells me that a spirit being is very similar but has a spiritual structure that can walk through walls. It's not finite, or limited to just 3 dimensions. Paul said whether in the body or OUT OF THE BODY I could not tell....he was translated into the 3rd Heaven. If He was not in His body here on Earth, and was there in his spirit only, than for certain the soul does not require a physical body to be alive or exist! The body is not immortal.....we are recreated or resurrected in a twinkling of an eye we put on immortal, incorruptible bodies at the Resurrection....our soul doesn't sleep which is completely impossible for a soul to ever sleep!
Who told you it's impossible for a soul to sleep? Because thats not in the bible. The bible says the body go to dust, but the breath/spirit goes to God to gave it, just like in the beginning when the body is formed of the dust, and God then breathes the breath of life into man. 'It is a spirit' refers to a different realm, an evil entity embodying a person. The disciples were Jews, Jews dont believe in life after death. Spirits, in the controversy of good and evil, is the acknowledgement that the world does not consist of the humans and animals only.
Jesus said Lazarus is asleep...he is dead. Lazarus wasn't a living soul whose death was a sleep? The very first lie was a promise that we would not 'really'/'surely' die. It sounds to me that things were in motion from near to the beginning of time to procure beliefs that we can be immortal 'soul'. The tree of life is barred from us. If the soul lives on forever without sleep, what is the value of the tree of life? What is the value of the resurrection when we are promised that these 'mortals will put on immortality'. I can see you are passionate in your remark, and I believed the same thing you believe. In a critical look, I realised what was rooted in scripture, compared to what was common traditional belief. Discovering the origins of these beliefs was also veru eye opening also. But it's not from the bible.
The clear word Bible has been so altered that it’s not scripture anymore. Please look up original Greek and Aramaic texts. There is no soul sleep. Hell is real. Heaven is real. It’s eternal. This message is not accurate.
Why would you say heaven is real? They believe that as well. I've done deep dives Into the hebrew & greek, What are you seeing that I am not? In scripture immortality is bestowed upon the righteous, NEVER The unrighteous.
A cunningly devised fable. The Bible clearly teaches we have a spirit in multitudes of texts. To call it breath is to down play the truth that we are spirit and flesh that makes up our soul. His teaching is like evolution that only has a body. Jesus said, "Fear not them that kill the body but are not able to kill the soul" Matt. 10:28. Nothing can kill our soul in this life but it is true your spirit will sleep in unconsciousness until the resurrection. It's so sad that these men have all swallowed this lie about us only being flesh with a spark of energy or puff of wind that keeps the body alive or nails in a box. None of this make believe is in any Bible verse that I know of.
@@Landis_Grant even after all the evidence of this video you still babble nonsense? Do you even know what a parable is? What about the context of that parable? I don't think is Jesus that's laughing. I'm sure the devil is having a field day with you.
John 10v10.. "the thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." Romans 3v4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as It is written, That thou mightest be justified in Thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. here is the propaganda machine of 7da......
+albusai well technically the difference is atheists don't believe in resurrection of the dead, to Heaven or punishment, so to them, the first death is eternal death. They would be similar to the Sadducees in the Bible
+Beyt 1 cor 2v11 for what man knows the things of a man except the Spirit of the man which is in him ? Even so no one knows the things of God except The Spirit of God. Knowledge is not in our flesh or our breath but our spirit, which cannot be seen therefore cannot be destroyed and is immortal. 2cor 4v8 " while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen, for the things which are seen are temporal: but the things which are not seen are eternal." may all Glory be Given to God
44musher well not exactly, we believe everything the bible says, and the immortality of the soul is something well explain in the bible, that is not immortal, so I believe the word of God and not man. God bless you
Feeling comforted by this message🙏 Thank you.
It is amazing that after so much evidence people argue in the comments section. "The spirit of God is in my nostrils" Job 27:3. Body + breath of life from God = Soul. Is this math that hard? The argument that poetic books can't be used for doctrine fails as authors of the new testament and Jesus use scripture poetry for doctrine. Amazing stubbornness, pagan beliefs, and greek philosophies have made this argument possible. I am glad people have opinions and you have the freedom in the USA to believe differently. God bless you in your search for the truth.
Amen brother, people are unwilling to accept evidence when it's laid out before them they'd rather adhere to doctrines which aren't true
At this point in time, people come here with an already closed mind. It really doesn't matter what they here from the Bible. They are so infused with error that nothing you or this message can say will change their mind. Just let it go. They'll make be easy prey for the last day deception.
thank you doug my friend s wife died and he wants to know where she is some one told her she is suffering now by scripture i can tell him the truth and make him and his kids feel better
GOD is really wonderful!Amen
If you sleep between death and resurrections, then Heaven will pretty much feel immediately after death anyway, just like Fry on Futurama awakening in the year 3000.
I don't know what the second death is 'like' sleep forever after being consumed by fire. That's where all the 'blackest of darkness' lines come in to denote permanent unconsciousness, and not black sooty hellfire as I saw on some silly site!
Paul made it clear so quit quoting the Old Testament and taking the Bible completely out of it's context
Luke 16, Jesus mentions 3 names, and quotes Abraham! It was a place of comfort and since Doug thinks he knows more than Jesus on this issue. Jesus said Lazarus was comforted and the rich man was in torments! Jesus never used names in parables. Paul said he was in a straight betwixt two. To depart would be far greater. Paul was taken into the 3rd Heaven. Paul said to be absent from the body....the body.. the body.. aka, house, vessel, tent for our spirit & soul, is to be present with the Lord....how much clearer should it be? What about the martyrs in Heaven millions if not billions mentioned in Revelation?
Heaven & hell are not the Judgments nor rewards.....Doug, Doug, Doug... when Jesus returns and we are resurrected and He completes the first resurrection, then we shall stand before His Bema seat and receive our eternal rewards! Here on Earth not in Heaven! Jesus throne is in Jerusalem. After His Millenial reign, all those in hell will be resurrected unto eternal damnation called the Lake of Fire, where Satan and all his angels will spend eternity
Philippians 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Revelation 5, John sees the souls of the martyrs crying and asking God how long?
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under (R)the altar (S)the souls of those who had been slain (T)for the word of God and for (U)the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, (V)“How long, O Lord, (W)holy and true, (X)until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a (Y)white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them (Z)that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
The Bible itself, shows that souls are mortal by nature (Job 33:22; Ezekiel 13:19; 18:4, 20) and that this entire description is symbolic, not literal. The "souls" - the dead saints - crying "avenge our blood" (Revelation 6:10) is similar to Abel's blood (his life, see Leviticus 17:14) crying to God from the ground (Genesis 4:10; Hebrews 11:4). Since neither blood nor the dead talk (Psalm 115:17; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10), we know that the meaning is not literal. The "souls under the altar," then, is a symbolic picture of the martyrdom of saints.
You just answered my question. If you raise the dead their souls would have to come out of heaven or he'll. Thank you so much.
Amen
Hear answers from our Redeemer Himself whom you call Jesus, at the bottom of this comment is more of the Word of the Lord spoken to this generation;
"11/15/04 From The Lord, Our God and Savior
The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy
For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear
(Regarding the state of the dead[1])
Thus says The Lord: All people sleep in death, both those who have done good and those who have done evil. In no way are they among the living, nor are they aware. They know nothing at all, for all their thoughts have perished with them. All remain at rest, until the day I call them to awake; some to the first, the resurrection of life, and many more to the second, the resurrection of judgment. Blessed and holy are those who take part in the first resurrection. For over them the second death[2] has no power, as it is written.[3]
You have heard it said:
To be absent from the body
Is to be present with The Lord[4]...
This saying is true...
For all those who die in Messiah will
Indeed look upon Him at the Last Day,[5]
Yet it will be to them as the blink of an eye...
For the dead know not the passage of time,
Nor do they know they have fallen asleep...
Thus there is indeed life after death,
Yet during death there is most certainly not.
For I tell you the truth, if there is life during death, as it is commonly taught amongst the people, then none truly die. And if all have the victory over death, then all are like The Messiah; thereby making The New Covenant useless and the resurrection of no effect. This teaching is false, denying both the sacrifice of The Messiah and the Word of God. For if none truly die, then The Messiah is no longer the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. And if He is not the first to be freed from death and the grave, then The Messiah did not die. And if The Messiah did not die, then the power of sin has the victory and the grave has become your final resting place, leaving you with no hope of salvation.
Yet the Scriptures do not lie. The wages of sin is death;[6] from the beginning, I declared it! And yet the churches continue to stand divided against themselves, corrupting My Word as they fall in line with satan, deceiving and being deceived, preaching, “You will not surely die,”[7] teaching that which runs contrary to the Scriptures.
Therefore, hear the Word of The Lord, O foolish and deceived generation: If as you say, there is no death and all continue on as living spirits, whether it be in Heaven or in hell or in some other place, then you also say there is no God and no Savior who was sent to save you from the penalty of sin, which is death.
Where then does that leave you? You are lost, a people without hope, multitudes of deceived people waiting for their own inevitable destruction, a creation wrought in vain! Yet The Messiah did indeed pay the penalty for your sins, even unto death... He is risen, The Firstborn from the dead; by which you are also delivered from death, if you so choose to receive of His life, if you so choose to embrace Him as He truly is!
For He alone will stretch out His hand in that day
And lift His beloved from the grave, in which all must sleep,
Save those who remain awake at His coming, as it is written[8]...
And behold, the time is indeed coming, when all
Who are in the grave will hear His voice and come out...
Those who have done good, to the resurrection of life...
And those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment...
I AM THE LORD."
www.thevolumesoftruth.com/Death_and_Awakening
Simon Brown-- I would encourage you to do a word study on the word "hell" and look at the root translations from every single instance where this word (the word sheol also) is used. It is very interesting! You could look at the series "Thunder in the Holy Land" too they have en episode dedicated to looking at those Greek and Hebrew roots, their contexts, and their translations in KJV.
I'm sure Pr.Doug already learned and shares about that..
Hear answers from our Redeemer Himself whom you call Jesus, at the bottom of this comment is more of the Word of the Lord spoken to this generation;
"11/15/04 From The Lord, Our God and Savior
The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy
For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear
(Regarding the state of the dead[1])
Thus says The Lord: All people sleep in death, both those who have done good and those who have done evil. In no way are they among the living, nor are they aware. They know nothing at all, for all their thoughts have perished with them. All remain at rest, until the day I call them to awake; some to the first, the resurrection of life, and many more to the second, the resurrection of judgment. Blessed and holy are those who take part in the first resurrection. For over them the second death[2] has no power, as it is written.[3]
You have heard it said:
To be absent from the body
Is to be present with The Lord[4]...
This saying is true...
For all those who die in Messiah will
Indeed look upon Him at the Last Day,[5]
Yet it will be to them as the blink of an eye...
For the dead know not the passage of time,
Nor do they know they have fallen asleep...
Thus there is indeed life after death,
Yet during death there is most certainly not.
For I tell you the truth, if there is life during death, as it is commonly taught amongst the people, then none truly die. And if all have the victory over death, then all are like The Messiah; thereby making The New Covenant useless and the resurrection of no effect. This teaching is false, denying both the sacrifice of The Messiah and the Word of God. For if none truly die, then The Messiah is no longer the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. And if He is not the first to be freed from death and the grave, then The Messiah did not die. And if The Messiah did not die, then the power of sin has the victory and the grave has become your final resting place, leaving you with no hope of salvation.
Yet the Scriptures do not lie. The wages of sin is death;[6] from the beginning, I declared it! And yet the churches continue to stand divided against themselves, corrupting My Word as they fall in line with satan, deceiving and being deceived, preaching, “You will not surely die,”[7] teaching that which runs contrary to the Scriptures.
Therefore, hear the Word of The Lord, O foolish and deceived generation: If as you say, there is no death and all continue on as living spirits, whether it be in Heaven or in hell or in some other place, then you also say there is no God and no Savior who was sent to save you from the penalty of sin, which is death.
Where then does that leave you? You are lost, a people without hope, multitudes of deceived people waiting for their own inevitable destruction, a creation wrought in vain! Yet The Messiah did indeed pay the penalty for your sins, even unto death... He is risen, The Firstborn from the dead; by which you are also delivered from death, if you so choose to receive of His life, if you so choose to embrace Him as He truly is!
For He alone will stretch out His hand in that day
And lift His beloved from the grave, in which all must sleep,
Save those who remain awake at His coming, as it is written[8]...
And behold, the time is indeed coming, when all
Who are in the grave will hear His voice and come out...
Those who have done good, to the resurrection of life...
And those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment...
I AM THE LORD."
www.thevolumesoftruth.com/Death_and_Awakening
Luke 24:36, KJV
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Ghost is Jesus human spirit.....once our body dies, as born-again believers, followers of Jesus, our spirit, aka ghost, is committed into the Father's hands in heaven....Jesus was in God's care when He descended into hell....how could Jesus descend into hell if His soul was asleep?
How could the gospel be preached to those who are dead, if their souls were sleeping?
1 Peter 4:6 KJV
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
That is out of context, the gospel is preached to people who are now dead. You can't think it means who should be pastoring to dead people?
How could Jesus have descended if His soul were asleep? Ephesians 4
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
What?
I actually like Pastor Doug and Seventh Day Adventists. I was raised an Adventist....I'm against all false doctrines and cults....everything the Adventist church teaches is based in spiritual death....it's a cursed, hypnotized, brainwashed, spiritually dead cult.
The law of God is given to us, it's not something we "keep" through our flesh. The Sabbath is not a law, nor a Commandment, but a truth spiritually in Christ it is realized....we find our 7th day reality which is the only day that had no Evening or morning which meant it had no end nor was it based in the flesh at all. The 10 Commandments were only given through our flesh. Christ fulfilled the law meaning Justice and the righteous requirements of the law were totally completed at Calvary....it is finished. Sin is sin. I'm not endorsing sin. Sin is a transgression of God's law. But we are redeemed from God's law so even when we sin, because we are not fully redeemed yet, God no longer imputes it as sin under the law. So we are not punished by the law!
That's why Christians can sin and not be put to death per the law! I'm honestly trying to help you guys. Believe it or not, every Christian sins everyday, and if we were still under the law, that sin would be imputed unto us. So God ended that at the cross. Im not endorsing sin, and trying to keep the 10 Commandments doesn't keep people from sinning! It's through being sanctified by the Holy Spirit working inside our spirit man, the inner man, that we are daily being purged by His work, not ours, so our nature becomes like Jesus....not by the letter that kills, but through the spirit, that gives us life
God bless... trying to help you guys honestly get free from Adventism
Your right off track!!!
I understand what you're saying, but that is not what u read. Jesus said I have not come to do away with the law, only to fulfil it.
God says that he writes the law in our hearts.
Where have you read that the 7th day had no beginning or end, in the context which we read the bible it's pretty clear in order that something was called a 'day' it required evening and morning. Therefore the interpretation that this day was eternal and spiritual has no evidence base. Particularly as all around the world a 7 day week is acknowledged, long before Christianity was taken to the world, and our bodies are in sync with 7 day cycles as evidenced by the French Revolution when they tried to change this.
Jesus was the lamb that was slain, all of the sacrifices that had taken place before were pointing to Jesus. Jesus says the scriptures testify of me, and when he lay down his life, that was the end of the sacrificial system. Nevertheless, the keeping of the law, ceremonies and sacrificial system prior to Christ were not to signify that these who practiced it do not sin, it was because they sin. No-one proposes that now, keeping the ten commandments as a Christian is to earn sinlessness, the ten commandments are there Because we sin, not that it makes us not sin. In the same way a traffic light doesnt prevent people from speeding through a red light. Should all traffic lights be removed spiritually because someone did it already and now we don't have to follow it because it doesn't make us drive any better?
😂😂😂 🤡
@@paulinewhitehouse2568 he's beyond off track. He derailed and crashed
An interesting analysis of an important issue, and warning against spiritism. But how do you reconcile these teachings on death with the account of the transfiguration of Jesus in Luke 9:29-31 which seems to indicate that Moses and Elijah - two deceased figures were actually in Jesus's presence and conversing with him, and were not merely present as symbols of the law and the prophets?. The relevant verses state ""As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem". (NIV) Furthermore, why does 1 Thess 4: 14 refer to the Second Coming as involving Jesus bringing those who have fallen asleep in him if they remained in the grave at death? The verse states, " For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him". It seems these passages were not addressed in this presentation.
There is a passage Jude 9- that there was a fight over the body of Moses + Elijah never died. 1 Thess 4:14 is referring to Jesus raising Christians from the dead-not bring back disembodied spirits from heaven as taught by Dake & repeated by Perry Stone.
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Which means the grave
As I understand scriptures, God gave Adam " only" the breath of life - oxygen, but he gave Jesus his " Holy" spirit in full measure. The spirit can be quantified can be fire, wind etc. It is God's operational presence and life force. King David asked God not to take His (God"s) Holy spirit from him.
The Bible says “When a soul dies it ceases to exist”
No, it doesn't. Do a quick Google search for it and nothing will come up.
It doesn't say that but it does say our souls rest in Jesus waiting for the resurrection.
Amen
There are a lot of problems with his presentation, because he reads verses that say the opposite of what he's teaching.
For instance, he shows the verses that explain how the whole human is the soul, and that the soul sleeps when it dies, at least in the Old Testament before Jesus. But then he quotes the Old Testament verse that says the spirit returns to the Lord when a man dies. The spirit is different than the soul. It's a part of it--the conscious part. And yet we have verses that say we sleep at death and that Samuel was woken from his "slumber." But all of that is before Christ. He gives almost no verses that show we sleep after Christ. And Christ's own parable of Lazarus shows consciousness after death, but I'm assuming that was a metaphor about death after Jesus dies because He kept teaching about how things would be after He died. Sometimes, He spoke in the present tense and said sleep meant death, which was correct before He died, but things changed after we died.
A big problem is that many rose from the dead when Jesus died. They didn't come out of their graves physically from what we can tell. It was their spirits rising, most likely. Dead people bodily coming out of the grave would've been written down my historians and would have freaked out everyone.
Then Peter tells us that when Jesus died, He went to the spirits in Heaven from the time of the Flood and preached to them. If they're sleeping and no conscious, how would they hear Him preach? The simple answer is that they aren't sleeping at that point, after His death. To make it more complicated, the passage said they were kept in prison since the Flood. So it seems to be saying they're still in the same prison they were in for the last 2,000 years since the Flood. So we're they conscious or not? I'm guessing they weren't conscious before Jesus died, but Peter sure thinks they're conscious and listening to Jesus now. And that's not the most amazing thing about that verse. The amazing thing is that Jesus is preaching to people who are dead and in prison/"hell." Why preach to them if they can't be saved? Or are our translations really screwing up our understanding of Hell? Definitely the latter.
In the 1800s, every single scholar who was an authority on the early Church said the early Church mostly believed that Hell was temporary and purified people to get them to Heaven. They believed all people would eventually make it to Heaven, and the demons, too. And these were native Koine Greek speakers, the language the New Testament was written in. We're they misunderstanding their own language and sayings? Of course not.
4 of the 6 schools of Christianity back then taught that everyone would eventually get back to Heaven, including those who went to Hell. The two schools that didn't teach that were even schools with buildings and materials. They were more like schools of thought in two specific regions.
The Nestorians still teach Hell is temporary. They have since those times, and up until the 14th Century, they dwarfed the Catholic controlled Christian Church in size. They were massive and all over Asia. I'd say they were the true Christian Church throughout those years because Catholicism is Pagan to the core and strategically took over real Christianity then injected Paganism into it. Read Dr. Alberto Rivera on this stuff. He tells how they really formed. Anyway, the Catholics are who eventually quashed the idea of Hell being redemptive and popularized the eternal torment Hell doctrine.
It was so late when I typed everything above this, I was dozing and left out some things. It's morning now so I'll finish.
In the Ancient Near East, it wasn't a right or wrong, good or bad ideology. It was about chaos and order, functionality and dysfunctionality. Intention was everything.
So when the Ancient Hebrews watched God's actions, they weren't thinking good or evil, they were thinking about the intention behind each action and they knew His intentions were always good. So when He uses the enemy to do what we would call evil in our Western philosophy way of seeing the world, they would look at the bigger picture and see that He was using the enemy for a broader, good purpose. For instance, when Babylon conquered Israel, you'd think that was an evil act, but God said He brought Babylon down to judge Israel, and the result was that Israel was humbled. So God used the eneny to do something seemingly bad that was actually good. But if you go bac farther in history, we see that the Israelite were used by God to judge the Canaanites who were horribly sinful. They were to drive them out of the Promised Land and they did so. The eneny is often used by God to judge His own people, and it's a good thing. When He wagers against Satan to tempt Job, God talks about how Jon is such a great servant of His. So why send Satan against him? Sounds kind of evil right? God has Satan kill off all 10 of Job's children. And no matter that God replaces all that He let Satan take from Job, you don't get over losing your kids. That's a horrific scar that's always present to some degree. Some would say that's pretty evil, but not the Hebrews. They would say God used all of that to judge Job, to prune him (judgment and punishment have the same meaning in Ancient Hebrew--to prune, basically).
Those two words are both used to describe hell in the New Testament and are directly transliterated into Greek with the same meanings. In the Greek, the word punishment means correction. And we all know you can't correct something for eternity because eventually it will be fully corrected. And the word judgment means to find a problem hurting a person or society and remove it so the person or society can grow and flourish. So it's basically pruning. In the Greek, they use the same word with the same meaning to describe hell. You can't judge for eternity because it's the same thing as correction. They use a different word for vengeful punishment but that's never used to describe hell. It's only used once by Paul in the New Testament to describe what he did to the Christians when he was persecuting them. So why not use that same word for hell? Because that's not what hell is for. That's merely what Augustine and some of the Latin Church Fathers believed, and that's mainly because they were products of the Holy Roman Empire which "converted" to Christianity at the order of Emperor Constantine, sort of. Technically, he faked his conversion to Christianity in 313 AD in order to unite the empire and gain control of Christianity. History about him shows he didn't actually convert. He hated the Jews and ripped everything Jewish out of the religion and replaced it all with Pagan practices and ways and temples, etc. By 380 AD, Paganism was outlawed because most Pagans had come over to Christianity since it had become so Paganized. And by the time Augustine came on the scene the following century, the heavily Paganized and fear-induced Christians were ripe for being convinced of an eternal hell. So Augustine was exceptionally successful. And in the 6th Century, Justinian managed to get a local, not an ecumenical, council, to anathemitize Universalism. He forced it, though, and he was not seen as a legitimate ruler since he took over by military coup. So it was not widely recognized. The Catholics also anathemitized the Nestorians, who were all Universalist. So the Nestorians went throughout the East and converted far, far more than the Catholics ever dreamed of converting. In face, the Nestorians dwarfed ALL Christian denomination numbers with their numbers up to the 1300s. That's right--Universalists outnumbered the other Christians for over a thousand years and they had the more accurate doctrine of Christianity that agreed with the Bible. So the true Christians (Universalists), not the Catholics, are who actually had the numbers throughout the medieval period. The Catholics were much, much more like the Pagans. But as Nestorians declined heavily due to a Khan ascending the throne and suddenly converting form Christianity to Islam, we saw their numbers dwindle. While in the 200s and 300s, Christian numbers exploded due to persecution, we saw massive declines in Christian Nestorian numbers under the Muslim rule of the Khans.
But luckily, shortly after the real Christians (the Nestorians) declined in numbers, the Protestants broke away and started purifying true Christianity again. In the 1800s, many scholars discovered that Universalism was in the Bible and the dominant belief of the Early Church. They tried to teach it to Christians, but it's very difficult to get people to change their beliefs they grew up in. So while there were several Universalist churches in the US, they declined eventually due to most Christians being taught eternal hell.
Alright, I'm done with this conversation. If you study Universalism over the next 6 months or more, you're welcome to discuss it with me again if you really believe you can disprove it. But as of now, you've proved absolutely nothing and addressed none of the irrefutable points I've made. Instead, you did what all uneducated debates do when they can't disprove an argument--you attempted to redirect. Sorry, but that's a sign of a lack of education in the subject bing debated, and I won't entertain that. It's pointless. It means this is a battle of pride and you just want to win so you can feel better about yourself. I don't care to win, I care to learn or share truth. I dislike debate but enjoy friendly discussion. This isn't a friendly discussion since you keep trying to win (and keep failing).
Have a good life.
Body + Spirit = Living Soul.
You separate either one and you are no longer living. The Spirit returns to God yes, but that is like a hard drive with all our information stored kept until the resurrection to be glorified in a new body with our spirit to become a living soul again.
Read John 3:16 carefully and you will see who gets to live eternally, yet most preachers contradicts themselves with this one simple verse. Perish means utterly destroyed, not living eternally.
God bless.
@@drezilla1310 There are some issues with your comment. First, the Bible says God is spirit. Is God just a hard drive until resurrection? I know that's a bit of an extreme comparison, but my point is that just because Psalms says our spirit returns to God from where it came doesn't mean we're give enough information to know our spirit is just a hard drive. That's adding your opinion to the verse when we have no other verses saying it or justifying it.
Now, I'm not saying you're wrong either. Before Christ, I believe that's somewhat true, sort of. But keep in mind, the Psalms are Hebrew poetry, and so is every prophetic book of the Bible, so there's heavy Hebrew symbolism in them (so taking them completely literal is unwise).
And anytime you get into prophecy, you're getting into a hotly debated subject where a lot of people really can't prove much of their interpretation about it, especially involving death and resurrection. Just because most Christians believe in dispensationalism (future 7 yr tribulation interpretation of prophecy) doesn't mean it's accurate. The majority opinion doesn't decide whether something is true or not. In fact, I can disprove that interpretation without a doubt, 100%, and it's really cool. If you're interested, you can read SOZO online for free at EllisSkolfield.com. All of Ellis's books are free to read there and they're some of the best I've read.
When it comes to soul sleep after death, here are your problems you have to contend with:
1. Matt 27:51-53
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Soul sleep before Jesus resurrection is fine. Soul sleep after His resurrection is a problem since these guys rose from the dead when He rose from the dead.
2. 1 Peter 3:18-20
Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust,
to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit. In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison, after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water.
That's a huge problem for your doctrine because if dead spirits in "prison" after Jesus' resurrection were just harddrives returned to God, then the above verses show that not only did they become conscious, they also aren't with God in Heaven but in a place that's called a prison, and Jesus is preaching to them to save them. Those guys are in the place we mistakenly call "hell," and yet Jesus is preaching the Gospel to them. Interesting, don't you think?
My point is simple:
a) Hebrew poetry isn't always what it seems to us Western-thinking people--The Hebrews were Eastern philosophy, not Western-philosophy, and the two have quite different perspectives.
b) Death before and after Jesus changed according to the verses above, and people resurrected earlier than mainstream Christianity's interpretation of the prophecies allow for...so someone's reading the Hebrew poetry of Revelation incorrectly. It doesn't only speak of the future. It speaks of times before, during, and after John's time of writing it. That's clearly seen in certain parts of Revelation.
c) If souls are rising and Jesus is preaching to people in prison ("hell"), somethings incorrect about the idea that we soul sleep all the way to the final resurrection.
Look deeper into the scriptures and don't try to fit your doctrines into the Bible. Read the Bible as it is and test your doctrines against it to see if they actually work. Actively try to disprove your doctrines with it. If it disproves your doctrines, enjoy the search for the truth rather than just believing you know the truth already. It's so much more fun that way, to be in a discovering-truth mode as opposed to an I-already-know-the-truth mode.
I don't know you, so maybe you already are in a genuine discovering-truth mode. If so, challenge your belief in soul sleep beyond Jesus' resurrection and see what you find. I love searching for truth in the Bible, and I've found some really cool stuff that utterly disproves certain doctrines in the mainstream holds to be true. Two of them are big doctrines.
Good luck with your research. Have a great day.
No, my argument doesn't fail. There's no way every single Church Fathrr and Christian in the first 5 centuries didn't understand their native language ehen it was speaking of eternal punishment and eternal judgment. We know they didn't misunderstand it because they wrote at length to explain their beliefs about hell being temporary to purify people and get them to Heaven. The Church Fathers were very well educated and taught at the Christian schools (like universities). Your argument is just silly.
@@No_bread-and-circuses It was my mistake using the word "all." I meant that several church fathers and important figures from the first 5 centuries.
Clement should not be on your list, though. He was a Universalist. In fact, Clement is the reason scholars give for Origen's Universalism.
There were 6 schools of Christianity in the first few centuries AD. One believed in eternal punishment. It was the Latin school, so the ones heading it were not native Koine Greek speakers. One school taught Annihilationism. And the other 4 taught Universalism. Most people believed in Universal Restoration in the first 5 centuries because of the language used in the Gospels and Revelation, as well as traditional teachings being passed from disciple to disciple. So no, most native Koine Greek speakers were not misunderstanding the saying. This was confirmed by Augustine who wrote that most Christians believed in a redemptive Hell. Augustine is mostly responsible for spreading the eternal hell concept. And the Sophists before Christ admit that the eternal hell concept came from the Ancient Egyptian priests to control the masses. It wasn't found in Judaism until Solomon allowed false religions into Israel. But it never really became popular. We see some evidence of it in the last 2 - 3 centuries AD in the Dead Sea Scrolls, but again, it wasn't very popular. In fact, today, the Jews, generally speaking, believe that only 11 people/spirits throughout all of history will burn in hell forever and everyone else will be redeemed because God forgives, according to them and the Old Testament.
Lets look at your belief and test it against scripture.
1. The Bible says that God can do all things.
2. The Bible says God does all that pleases Him in Heaven, on Earth, and below the Earth (or in the depths).
3. The Bible says it is God's will that NONE perish and ALL repent.
Now, let's test those three against your belief and see if all 3 can be true.
You believe God can do all things. And you believe God's will is that none perish and all repent. But you cannot believe that He does ALL that pleases Him in Heaven, on Earth, and below the Earth if you believe in eternal hell, because that would mean God is not doing His will of making sure everyone repents.
Or let's say that you believe God's will is that all repent and none perish, and that God does all that pleases Him on Earth. If so, then you cannot believe that He can do all things because He cannot cause everyone to eventually choose Him and go to Heaven since some will burn forever. So He cannot do "all things" according to your beliefs.
Or let's say you believe He can do all things, and He does all that pleases Him on Earth. But then that means you cannot believe that it's His will that none perish and all repent because He allows most people to burn in hell forever.
No matter how you look at it, your belief makes the Bible contradict itself, needing to invalidate one or more of its verses. But a Universalist view of hell has no problem with all three verses. They all make perfect sense.
There's another set of verses from Paul that are used the same way to show absolute proof that eternal hell cannot be true, but again, Universalism has no problem with the verses.
Also, 1 Tim 4:10 - "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, ESPECIALLY of those who believe."
So tell me, why would Paul say Jesus saves all people, ESPECIALLY those who believe?
Also, some of the biggest scholars of the last 200 years have admitted that Paul's language in Romans is expressing Universalism, but those scholars still believe in eternal hell. They say Paul must have been wrong. Kinda crazy, right? They're saying the Bible has incorrect teaching in it by Paul just so they can keep their beliefs and not get ostracized by their peers.
And why would God be so evil as to create mankind knowing most would burn in hell forever so that a minority could live in Heaven with Him forever? That's horrific and incredibly selfish. Yet that's what you claim God does, with your belief in an eternal hell. You claim that He's not wise enough or powerful enough or loving enough to figure out a way to get everyone to accept Him. You make the Bible contradict itself. How else would you like to screw up God's ways and the Bible's scriptures? lol
@@No_bread-and-circuses Wrong again. You really should learn Ancient Hebrew culture, word pictures, colloquialisms, and the Syriac translation of the Apostles Creed. They'd be very enlightening regarding Rev 20:10.
You see, that verse is completely and utterly mistramslated. And you'd know that if you'd studied the things I just mentioned.
First, fire, in the Bible, is almost exclusively divine fire when it's mentioned, and is an Ancient Hebrew symbol for purifying thing. In other words, fire is either talking about God, or the process of purification, usually. The burning bush was God, and it didn't consume the bush. The pillar of fire that lead the Israelites out out Egypt was God. God came down in a ball of fire and smoke on Mt. Sinai. In Isaiah 6:6, a Seraph took a burning ember from under the throne of God and touched it to Isaiah's lips and said now his whole body was purified (because he was afraid that seeing God would kill him). Jesus said that EVERYONE would be salted with fire.
The Refiner's Fire is metaphor for both hell and God's judgment, both the judgment of His people and the judgment of those who are not His people yet.
Zechariah 13:9 - And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will test them as gold is tested: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
See the reference to refining gold and silver? The refiner's fire is specifically talking about someone who refines gold, silver, and other precious metals. Gold is a symbol of purity in the Bible, and all prophecy is written in Hebrew poetic style. When you refine gold, you heat it up with fire to melt it, then scoop off the impurities that float to the top, and when it cools, it's pure. To test its purity, you place sulpher on it, which can burn as hot as 5,000 degrees. You can test its purity by the color of the smoke that comes off of it.
Solomon uses a very similar word picture in the Old Testament to the Lake of Fire. It should really be translated the Pond of Fire. Ponds are symbolic in Eastern philosophy, and the Ancient Hebrews were Eastern philosophy, which is markedly different than our Western philosophy. Ponds are a symbol of peace, tranquility, and washing away of past sins. The fire is God's love that burns away the sin.
When the Lake of Fire verse talks about those in it being tormented, that's an incorrect translation. That word isn't torment, it's test. It comes from the Greek Word for torsion and is directly related to the waves twisting a boat's hull, "testing" its strength. And "forever and ever," again, is the same word as "eternal," which is the Greek word Aion. Aion means age, 99% of the time in the New Testament, but it's only translated as something other than time when it's linked to words the translators believe to be eternal...like hell. In other words, if the translator believes hell is eternal, anytime they see a verse discussing it that has the word Aion in it, they choose not to translate it as "time" or "age," but rather "eternal" or "forever." So while that word should at the very least be translated as a temporary length of time, translators screw get it wrong all the time strictly because of their beliefs. Technically, though, the word means a future time and place, or an indefinite period of time, usually with limits but sometimes not, the place of eternity itself, or the age to come.
The last line of the Apsotles Creed has the term "eternal life" (aionian life) in it, but in Syriac, they didn't have a word for that concept, so they had to translate it to fit their language. So in the Apostles Creed that we found written in Syriac from the first few centuries AD, instead of "eternal life," it said, "life of the age to come," meaning the final age where everyone is in Heaven. It's talking about being in the Kingdom of God right now and experiencing peace and joy and contentment a little bit like what we'll experience in "the life of the age to come," AKA Heaven.
So knowing all of that, Rev 20:10 should be translated like so: "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the pond of fire and SULFUR, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be TESTED FOR PURITY there day and night in eternity."
Remember sulfur being used to test gold's purity buy the color of the smoke it let's off? Yeah...that's what's going on there. Translation is not an easy one-to-one ordeal like casa means home in Spanish. It doesn't mean home in Spanish, it has much more meaning than that to the Spanish. When translating Greek to English, there aren't always the right words in English to translate each word. Sometimes, concepts simply don't exist in one language like they do another. So it's inevitable that translators translate their own beliefs into their translation work. They can't help but do that. And that's what you're seeing with the passages about hell and the Lake of Fire. The founder of Tent maker.org did an excellent video on the Lake of Fire and other videos and write-ups on Aion and other related subjects. He shows how major Bible translators responsible for some of the most well-known Bible translations in the world have agreed with him, in writing, about the Bible teaching Universalism and the word eternal being mistranslated.
So no, Rev 20:10 doesn't prove your belief, it proves mine. Good try, though. I don't bring it up initially because I don't want to explain all of the stuff I just explained. Get back to me after you've researched Universalism for at least 6 months and then we can have an educated discussion on this. Until then, this is an unfair debate since you don't really know anything about the subject matter.
Have a good day.
A question posed at my church is why the 'spirit of Samuel' left a discouraging message to king Saul, instead of an encouraging one that gave Saul a false sense of security, and whether God had acted on the spirit in the same way that the guy that was told to curse Israel could only bless it!
Tim Lewis Satan has the power to transform himself. That was not Samuel.
+Saturday vs. Sunday no they need Christ and the Holy Spirit
***** it seems to me you are denying the Holy Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit that leads us into all truth.
+joestuffsda with that same logic would you dare say that eg white's visit from James who she dialogues with and adhered to his advice could have been Satan ? or her so called attending Angel could have also been the deceiver himself.... Praise Lord Jesus Christ the King of Kings !!
+joestuffsda p.s. Joe, I am aware that this topic of Samuel appearing is a contenteous topic.. peace
For a long time I have known about death and what it really is and I also know that nobody roasts in hell forever and ever.
This was one of the pastors that helped me understand. But he wasn't the only one. I studied this matter extensively.
I didn't study it because I wanted to know exactly what would happen, I studied it because there were too many contradictions from what I was being taught and from what I read in the Bible.
What confounded me about eternal life and those who believe that we are immediately in the presence of the Lord after we die were these two scriptures:. John 3:16 and John 14:3.
If the only way to eternal life is Jesus, how could those who do not accept them also have eternal life? And if we are believers, how do we immediately go in the presence of the Lord when John 14:3 makes it clear that he has to come get us at the time of the Resurrection? What purpose would the resurrection serve if we are already in heaven?
And as far as the eternal torment goes, I just could not imagine a loving God torturing souls forever and ever. Revelation 20:14 then made absolutely no sense to me
And that is when I realized you cannot base your understanding of a doctrine based on one scripture. You must not look at God's Word in whole, but one must also understand God's character which is described in His Word. But his character is not described in one scripture is it? No. To know his word is to know his character.
I have a dear sister in Christ who believes in the eternal torture doctrine. She understands that God's children sleep until the resurrection, but she cannot wrap her mind around the fact that God would not torture people forever and ever. It is always Revelation 20:10 to which she refers, but heart interpretation is faulty
I know that God does not do that. No loving God could. Justice must be served, but Justice does not mean torture. Justice means death and that is clear through many scriptures in the Bible
Scripture helps us know his character. Relationship with Christ helps us know His heart. How about I know it to some degree, I pray that one day I will TRULY know His heart!
😁🙏❤️✝️
It would be weird if you could float around as some disembodied consciousness that could see and hear. It would also negate the complexity of your eyes and ears and other sensory organs. I used to believe post-Jesus Christians went to heaven while unbelievers and sinners and pre-Jesus Christians slept. I must have done the most awful skim-reading of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 when I thought that!
+Tim Lewis LOL! "Skim-reading"...I'm guilty of that too! I'm better at taking my time now, when I spend time with God in His Word. SO much more understanding than ever before, but I still feel like I have SO much more to learn...
Petina Chambers I once heard a pastor say that because his thoughts are so much higher than ours, we can never learn enough in this lifetime. There is just too much to discover
Where do people's Souls reside if they're cremated and not buried?
Good question. Scattered as the ashes, burned. According to this doctrine I would think. But of course what is too hard for God to do?
Don’t forget some people are eaten by animals digested and excreted. Some people decay beyond belief. The Bible itself says you were dust and will return to dust. Some people are torn apart. It is confusing to think how would God reassurect them. And the idea of a spirit/soul would help that. But idk tbh. But currently I lean toward death being sleep.
Revelation 7, John sees millions upon millions from every tribe in Heaven who came out of The Great Tribulation
After these things I looked, and behold, (H)a great multitude which no one could number, (I)of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, (J)clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, (K)“Salvation belongs to our God (L)who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 (M)All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and (N)worshiped God, 12 (O)saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in (P)white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, [b]“Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, (Q)“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and (R)washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will (S)dwell among them. 16 (T)They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; (U)the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne (V)will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. (W)And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
Doug Doug Doug,ugh! All that are in their graves is referring to the physical body, not the soul! Nobody but Jesus has been resurrected yet! The first resurrection is for all the Saints who's body is sleeping or died....it's our body that's resurrected Doug, not our soul!
Where does the Bible refer to someone as having a soul
When the Bible makes reference to a soul it's talking about a living breathing creature not some disembodied ghost taught by Plato
Who is this guy??
Teaching basic Bible truths the vast majority of Christendom couldn't get correct on their best day. What denomination does he belong to?
This is what Jw's have been teaching for 2 hundred years.....
and here is this guy using all thier arguments😮
Doug Batchelor, seventh day Adventist pastor.
@Carlos_Martins913
Appreciate it.
Makes sense.
For me, it's always the outliers who nail theological inconsistencies much better than anyone belonging to the mainstream.
Everyone within orthodoxy have been trapped thinking along very narrow lines for far too long.
@MultipleGrievance I suggest you to watch his testimony. Powerful stuff.
Just type "Doug Batchelor cave man testimony"
@@MultipleGrievance ua-cam.com/video/f035HXupg7o/v-deo.htmlsi=cvBsqLy80UU9QKf9
@@Martins913
I will, thank you.
How could Jesus give up the ghost or spirit if His Spirit did not leave His body? The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Jesus Christ in us. One has to die to be a Spirit! When Jesus was walking on the water, it spooked the Apostles, and they thought it was a ghost or a spirit. Why would Jesus say, handle Me, for a spirit does not have flesh & bone as you see Me have? In other words, they were not sure if they were seeing a ghost of Jesus or Jesus in His bodily earthly form....that tells me that a spirit being is very similar but has a spiritual structure that can walk through walls. It's not finite, or limited to just 3 dimensions. Paul said whether in the body or OUT OF THE BODY I could not tell....he was translated into the 3rd Heaven. If He was not in His body here on Earth, and was there in his spirit only, than for certain the soul does not require a physical body to be alive or exist! The body is not immortal.....we are recreated or resurrected in a twinkling of an eye we put on immortal, incorruptible bodies at the Resurrection....our soul doesn't sleep which is completely impossible for a soul to ever sleep!
Who told you it's impossible for a soul to sleep? Because thats not in the bible. The bible says the body go to dust, but the breath/spirit goes to God to gave it, just like in the beginning when the body is formed of the dust, and God then breathes the breath of life into man.
'It is a spirit' refers to a different realm, an evil entity embodying a person. The disciples were Jews, Jews dont believe in life after death. Spirits, in the controversy of good and evil, is the acknowledgement that the world does not consist of the humans and animals only.
Jesus said Lazarus is asleep...he is dead. Lazarus wasn't a living soul whose death was a sleep?
The very first lie was a promise that we would not 'really'/'surely' die. It sounds to me that things were in motion from near to the beginning of time to procure beliefs that we can be immortal 'soul'. The tree of life is barred from us. If the soul lives on forever without sleep, what is the value of the tree of life? What is the value of the resurrection when we are promised that these 'mortals will put on immortality'. I can see you are passionate in your remark, and I believed the same thing you believe. In a critical look, I realised what was rooted in scripture, compared to what was common traditional belief. Discovering the origins of these beliefs was also veru eye opening also. But it's not from the bible.
The clear word Bible has been so altered that it’s not scripture anymore. Please look up original Greek and Aramaic texts. There is no soul sleep. Hell is real. Heaven is real. It’s eternal. This message is not accurate.
Why would you say heaven is real? They believe that as well.
I've done deep dives Into the hebrew & greek, What are you seeing that I am not?
In scripture immortality is bestowed upon the righteous, NEVER The unrighteous.
A cunningly devised fable. The Bible clearly teaches we have a spirit in multitudes of texts. To call it breath is to down play the truth that we are spirit and flesh that makes up our soul. His teaching is like evolution that only has a body. Jesus said, "Fear not them that kill the body but are not able to kill the soul" Matt. 10:28. Nothing can kill our soul in this life but it is true your spirit will sleep in unconsciousness until the resurrection. It's so sad that these men have all swallowed this lie about us only being flesh with a spark of energy or puff of wind that keeps the body alive or nails in a box. None of this make believe is in any Bible verse that I know of.
If you listen you will hear that is the very point.
Soul sleep upon death is a false doctrine and is contrary to the true story of the rich man in Luke 16 who was being tortured in the flames in Hades.
A parable....a parable, just symbolic language. Are all the people of God , his elecect NOW resting in the bos om of Abraham??? Seriously????
@@priscillajervey8345 Jesus laughs at you.
@@Landis_Grant even after all the evidence of this video you still babble nonsense?
Do you even know what a parable is? What about the context of that parable?
I don't think is Jesus that's laughing. I'm sure the devil is having a field day with you.
Quick 5-minute video! ua-cam.com/video/qhdMvq_PXGU/v-deo.html
Haw Bawbag what sin have animals committed why don't they live forever
Harry Wilson Are you really so sure about that? Our God of love would not ignore a pet owner's devotion.
Harry Wilson Priorities you have now as well as likes and dislikes, loves and hates will disappear completely in the presence of God.
John 10v10.. "the thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." Romans 3v4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as It is written, That thou mightest be justified in Thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. here is the propaganda machine of 7da......
And what exactly did you prove here?
he believe the same as atheist,, after death, stop existance,, so have fun,, cause anyways their is nothing after
albusai He believes in soul sleep which is that when we die we are dead and wait from Jesus to return
+albusai well technically the difference is atheists don't believe in resurrection of the dead, to Heaven or punishment, so to them, the first death is eternal death. They would be similar to the Sadducees in the Bible
Do you contradict John 3:16? Read it carefully and tell me what is the contrast in that verse. Only one group lives eternally.
This is false teaching.
+Casagracia Visser
Why don't you believe in the Bible?
+Beyt 1 cor 2v11 for what man knows the things of a man except the Spirit of the man which is in him ? Even so no one knows the things of God except The Spirit of God. Knowledge is not in our flesh or our breath but our spirit, which cannot be seen therefore cannot be destroyed and is immortal. 2cor 4v8 " while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen, for the things which are seen are temporal: but the things which are not seen are eternal." may all Glory be Given to God
44musher there is no scripture where it says that the soul of man or man is immortal.
+luis sanchez 2cor 4v8. but hey . you can believe what you will.
44musher well not exactly, we believe everything the bible says, and the immortality of the soul is something well explain in the bible, that is not immortal, so I believe the word of God and not man. God bless you